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We're On The Board

There it is in all it's glory. I never thought I would see the day. Way to take the fun out of an entire year in the Fulmer Cup. Now we can't taunt other schools when their players do stupid things college kids do. Other fans can literally point at the scoreboard now. Oh the shame!

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Doh!
So if the charges are dropped, does our point total too?

My mom went to Idaho and my brother went to Michigan. Not a proud day for our alma mater's.

by speedomike02 on Apr 30, 2007 6:46 PM EDT   0 recs

Yes
Points come off the board if charges are dropped.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

Hail to the Lion!

by BSD on Apr 30, 2007 6:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Grand Experiment
This event no-doubt delights those who have suffered the self righteousness of many a Penn Stater.  Self righteousness is the crutch on which PSU Kool-Aiders lean when the team is losing ... when we start to hear pious waxing about "the Grand Experiment" and how "Penn State graduates all its players."  So does Harvard and Yale!

Please understand the difference between a knife thrust and a knife twist.  Winning is a knife thrust, but moral superiority is twisting the knife when it's in.  Twisting a knife that's not "in" is just shadow boxing.

Here's a grand experiment: Beat a ranked team!  Win!  THAT's the scoreboard that counts.  Fulmer cup?  No, we don't want to be on that scoreboard, but unless we win, worrying about it is real silly.

by JC on Apr 30, 2007 7:43 PM EDT   0 recs

Not Choir Boys
As has already been said, PSU is not the "Grand Experiment" because players stay out of trouble; PSU is the Grand Experiment because players who get into trouble get punished by the coaching staff.

I don't expect to see any jail time come out of this for anybody.  If these were players at many other programs, I doubt they'd miss one second of one game.

Honestly, I don't think it matters as much as some people think.  The players involved are all guys at positions where PSU has great talent and depth, and some of the guys charged had VERY questionable involvement. They (King, Sales, Hayes, Sergeant) may not miss much, if any, time.

If this had happened with people on the O-Line, at RB, or at QB, then it would be time to panic.  As is, we'll still have guys who are top 4 at their position in the Big Ten stepping in.

by ckmneon on Apr 30, 2007 10:29 PM EDT   0 recs

Just the fact...
... that you're looking at how this incident might impact the won/loss record of the team, instead of what message it sends or could send, speaks volumes.  Regardless of whether there is any jail time for the players involved is meaningless - and should not matter one bit to the school's administration and coaching staff.  Their disciplinary actions should be based solely on what decisions were made, what ACTIONS were taken by the players involved, and what existing standards and/or behavior guidelines were not adhered to. Not because someone 'had someone else's back', not because a girl got insulted, not because the victims were in pre-law, not because of anything but what the players actually did.

So, it is double jeopardy, and just as with other social & corporate systems (the military for one) you get what you sign up for.  When the players accepted the scholarships they put themselves in the position to meet more stringent standards than the average citizen.  Our legal systems exist for one reason - to protect other citizens from someone's crimes.  Social sanctions, on the other hand, are what keeps civility and a civilized way of life in place.

To wait on the outcome of the legal proceedings, and to use whatever happens in the courtroom as a basis for student discipline flies in the face of what Paterno has clearly stated in the past, and that is that PSU football players will be held to a higher standard than the normal student.  This is part and parcel of the Grand Experiment (civility).  His (Paterno's) decision needs to address how the men involved failed to live up to what was expected of them as athletes under his charge - not what might come from the judicial proceedings, plea bargains, and legal influences (rest assured these kids are lawyering up right now, and the ones with the financial resources will be in better shape than those without).  If Paterno fails to do this - in the light of a situation that is probably as serious as any he has faced in his time at PSU, then any claims of "moral superiority" go out the window.

Finally, it really does not matter what other schools would do in the same situation - should they not do what's necessary it's up to them, and they will suffer the consequences if any. But, If Penn State keeps claiming the high road with the Grand Experiment, no other school's handling of what happens with that school's players matter.  This falls squarely on the shoulders of the Old Man.  Honestly, I'd be surprised if he doesn't come down pretty hard on this - at least I hope he does.

by Reed on May 1, 2007 7:49 AM EDT   0 recs

Couldn't agree more
Growing up in South Florida, I got to hear a lot of the rationalizations from Miami fans about their out-of-control program, and they sounded EXACTLY LIKE THE CRAP WE'RE HEARING NOW from so-called "fans" of PSU.

It all started with Rashard Casey, who did something I'd have grounded my boys for: stand by and do nothing while his buddy beat the crap out of an off-duty cop at a bar. No criminal liability, sure, but definitely moral liability.

Note that the fact that so many homers bring up Casey in situations like this one shows me they never got the point of the Great Experiment to begin with. As Reed says, it's not about obeying the law; it's about conducting yourself with higher standards than the minimum that the law requires.

by M1EK on May 1, 2007 10:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Still beating that dead horse
I've had this discussion with you on RUTS, that you felt you had to break down to name calling when your case held no water, simply because I do not have a webpage or gmail account I must be a cowardly anonymous poster. If you took the time to look at the REAL case of Rashard Casy you would find that according to Hudson County Prosecutor Edward J. DeFazio, in response to the dismissal of charges, "That's the little strange quirk in this case, leading us all to believe something happened here, but the grand jury got a full and complete presentation and they decided to no-bill Rashard Casey in this case." The grand jury also decided there was insufficient evidence to file LESSER charges against Casey or refer the case to municipal court, where it would have been treated as a misdemeanor. The officer's civil suit was laughed out of court and Casey sued the Hoboken Police Department for malicious prosecution, violation of his civil rights and slanderous statements and WON an undisclosed sum. Stop smearing this kid with your wild speculation of what you imagined happened, your self righteousness is patently absurd when held under the light of the FACTS.

by PSU Nick on May 1, 2007 2:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I dub thee Nick Homer
I stand by every statement I've made: Casey stood by and did nothing while his friend beat the crap out of an off-duty cop. That much is indisputable.

You seem to believe this means he didn't do anything wrong. I disagree - he could have tried to stop his friend; or he could have walked away; but instead, he let it happen.

That's morally wrong, if not criminally wrong. And "morally wrong" is enough to justify a suspension from the football team.

You keep setting them up, and I'll keep knocking them down.

The "nothing happened in this case" refers to the fact that it was Casey's friend who beat the cop, not Casey himself; in case anybody else falls for this tripe. Nothing more.

by M1EK on May 1, 2007 3:33 PM EDT   0 recs

The surest way to get into trouble...
..is to get involved in a bar fight in any way at all. You stand a better chance of injuring yourself or someone else breaking it up than you do of letting it play out. That is to say that Casey was involved at all, which all testimony says he wasn't. Your points are flawed and lack common sense

by PSU Nick on May 1, 2007 11:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Casey
I think if my friend got in a fight in a bar I would probably stand back and watch too. Just because he chose not to get involved doesn't make him as guilty as the guy who beat up the cop.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

Hail to the Lion!

by BSD on May 1, 2007 3:42 PM EDT   0 recs

Correct
He's not guilty at all of any criminal offense (his friend obviously is). He is guilty of a moral offense: hanging out with a bad guy who beat the crap out of an off-duty cop; doing nothing to stop him or even leave. Get it yet?

by M1EK on May 2, 2007 3:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Inherent contradictions...
Let me get this straight:

He didn't partake in the fight, but since he's friends with a guy who did, that makes him essentially, in your eyes, guilty by association.  That's some terrible logic dude.  Here's what more terrible:

"...doing nothing to stop him or even leave. Get it yet?"

So let's see, sitting there and not getting involved is NOT okay, but leaving would be?  HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE??  It's been said before, and I will reiterate it again.  By partaking in the fight (even if it was just to attempt to calm his friend down), he becomes much more liable than if he just sits back and does nothing.  He could get hurt, or worse yet he could get fingered as an accomplice (much like Justin King is now).  As football players are already under the microscope, I'd have to say he made the most sensible decision.

Either way, you shouldn't be chastising people who were involved in a situation you know nothing about.  Haven't you ever been at fault for something similar?  Nobody is perfect, so give it a rest.  There are a lot worse people in the world than Casey.

by Cpiritual27 on May 2, 2007 4:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Dear homer bonehead:
EITHER one of

a) stop his friend
b) get the hell out of there

is better than just standing by as his friend whooped it up on an off-duty cop. What part of this are you not getting?

Casey's not as bad as these guys who broke in the apartment. But the willingness of our homer fans to applaud Paterno for discarding the Great Experiment in that case is when all this shit started about how we supposedly can't punish somebody because a court might find him innocent of the criminal charges. Bullshit on that.

by M1EK on May 3, 2007 3:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Okkkkkay, once again...
Leaving is no different than staying and doing nothing.  In fact, leaving might look WORSE, depending on your POV:  "Who's that PSU player who ducked out when there was a fight going on?  He must know something, or had a reason to flee..."

Yet basically you still want him to be punished for not doing anything wrong.  I just don't get it...

by Cpiritual27 on May 3, 2007 3:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Once again, it's homer education time
He did something wrong by going out with his thug friend and not doing SOMETHING when his thug friend beat the crap out of an off-duty cop.

Not something criminally wrong; PROBABLY not even civilly wrong, but definitely morally wrong.

And as for leaving being no different - again, bull. Staying beside your friend while he does this is showing tacit approval. Leaving is at least washing your hands of the thug.

These rationalizations of what is unquestionably BAD BEHAVIOR ("b b but they weren't found GUILTY in a COURT") were stage 1 of Hurricaneities in the 1980s, BTW. The next stage, which we're currently seeing here and elsewhere, is "well, they may be likely to be found guilty in a court this time but that's only because the DA IS OUT TO GET US!"

Stage 3? Combat fatigues.

by M1EK on May 3, 2007 5:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Only in M1ke's america...
...can you be guilty for not committing a crime.  Next time he should try and predict the future before he goes out.

by Cpiritual27 on May 3, 2007 5:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

M1ke is from Oceania
The Thought Police are on patrol. Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime is death.

by PSU Nick on May 3, 2007 5:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Bullshit on you
So leaving is ok? You are a HYPOCRITE if thats ok, but being in the bar isn't. Get it through your thick skull that you talk yourself out of your own argument. Casey was under no obligation, morally or otherwise, in get involved physically in the fight and chose smartest path not to. He may cross the line if he encourages the beating by cheering his friend on, but by all accounts he didn't and therefore deserves no punishment. Stop trying to act like he got away with murder and face up to your ignorance.

by PSU Nick on May 3, 2007 4:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Keep it clean, Guys
Debate the issue, but let's not personally attack each other.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

Hail to the Lion!

by BSD on May 3, 2007 4:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No Mike,
It does not make him as guilty. But, does that behavior - not stopping a beating - meet with the standards that Paterno has espoused? That is the heart of the questions proposed, and there seems to be two schools of thought about this.  

I was on a military discipline board a few years back where the accused Officer was also brought up on local civil criminal charges from an incident he instigated.  He hired a good lawyer and beat the civil criminal charges. However, our Board found him guilty of some of those same, and additional, charges stemming from the incident as required by the Manual for Courts Martial, over the profound disbelief of his civilian lawyer and the accused's family. I felt perfectly justified in doing so because as an Military Officer, he was held to higher behavioral standards than others - and ultimately represents the Service in which he was commissioned. And, to be honest, even if the Board hadn't found him guilty, other career sanctions would have taken place.  Like it or not this is what you get when you set high standards - you're left having to enforce them across the board - or in the long run they mean nothing. This is true especially if the principals involved (PSU and Paterno) have made a public commitment to doing things the right way - regardless of public opinion or the results on the field.

I don't know squat about the Casey situation, but do know that the eyes of football fans across the US are on what Paterno does in this situation. Let's hope he doesn't disappoint.

by Reed on May 1, 2007 10:11 PM EDT   0 recs

Wow!
"By partaking in the fight (even if it was just to attempt to calm his friend down), he becomes much more liable than if he just sits back and does nothing."

What a way to live a life! Personal decision making based on liability? Throw out the moral compass, disregard the Golden Rule, never help anyone in need (in this case the guy being beaten), live life as selfishly as possible. I don't think any of those actions fit into the Grand Experiment.

Paterno has attempted and spoken very publicly about molding young boys into well rounded and civilly engaged Gentlemen by forcing them to adhere to strict standards, and holding accountable those that do not. There shouldn't be a "Liability 101" course thrown into the mix.

by Reed on May 3, 2007 6:20 AM EDT   0 recs

Once again...
These guys are put under a microscope.  They don't lead the type of day-to-day lives that we normal folk do.  What he did at the time was what he felt to be the smartest decision.  If anything, the only guilt you can assign to him is the poor character assessment he made on his friend.  Villifying a young man based on the fact that he didn't do what YOU would have done is just plain silly.

by Cpiritual27 on May 3, 2007 10:59 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

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