Charges Dropped Against Sales, Hayes, and Sargeant

by BSD on May 4, 2007 7:05 PM EDT in Football

I would say it's been a good day in court for the Nittany Lions charged in the April 1 apartment fight. Earlier today all charges were dropped against Justin King. At the end of the day all charges were dropped against Tyrell Sales, Jerome Hayes, and Lydell Sargeant.

But not all of the players got off completely free. Chris Baker has been bound over on all charges except for criminal mischief and disorderly conduct while Anthony Scirrotto has been bound over on all charges. Both men will now be facing a trial unless a plea bargain is reached.

To add a humorous spin to this, by my count that puts us around 20 for the Fulmer Cup standings meaning we are comfortably no longer in the lead.

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Who

is our backup safety? Because Scirrotto is definitely going to miss a few games.......

by Ben @ Black Shoe Diaries on May 5, 2007 3:27 AM EDT reply actions

That's good news for PSU

It sounds like the DA's office did pretty much the right thing in these cases, dropping the less serious charges and keeping the ones that showed pre-meditation and violence. Not too much to complain about there.

Again though, I'd expect Coach Paterno to look past the judicial proceedings and make his decisions based on what the players actually did - regardless of the legal outcome. For instance I believe he has to address the decision making by the players to go into the apartment - however, I don't know what kind of behavior standards Coach Paterno has in place for the players, or if he wings it depending on who/what is involved. For instance I found it hard to believe there wasn't anything done with that kid that got a DUI, and would hope that that is incorporated into the program's standards of conduct now.

Could someone on this site explain what PSU's "OJA" is? I heard it referenced in many posts, and I'm assuming it's the Office of Judicial Affairs or some such within the University itself. Is is student run? Or is it the actual University Administration's discipline arm in these type of situations?

Anyway - must make for some happy PSU fans to see the charges dropped.

by Reed on May 5, 2007 6:32 AM EDT reply actions

OJA

Reed,
Yes that is the office of Judicial Affairs and no they are not students they are employees of the university to monitor student conduct. Many people have a problem with them because they don't follow the same "innocent until proven guilty" edict that our legal system does. Basically they can suspend a student if suspected of wrongdoing until the investigation is over, and even if that person is found completely innocent they still were suspended for the length of time it takes for the investigation. Also, in most cases the OJA is looking at student rules of conduct and they can be very strict at times. Hope that helps.

by Galen on May 5, 2007 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions

OJA

Galen covered it pretty well. I just wanted to add I believe the OJA consists of a panel of deans. Each student is evaluated separately by their respective college based on their major. So one kid could go in front of one panel and another kid could go in front of another panel because they have different majors. I understand a complaint must be filed before any action is taken. Since four players were let off and nobody testified so far that they were throwing punches, I don't believe any complaint will be registered. Scirrotto and Baker are another story.

Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

Hail to the Lion!

by BSD on May 5, 2007 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions

So basically...

a football player at PSU has to be seen by three separate bodies in a case like this. The local County legal system, the OJA and then whatever the football staff decides to do. I'm thinking then that what Paterno uses for his decision making is whatever facts are brought up in the previous two investigations (Legal & OJA). Or, does Jay Paterno put on a double-ended hounds tooth hat and play Sherlock Holmes to find the truth? (sorry, cheap shot there).

I am trying to understand this as much as possible as I think Paterno's handling of this situation, especially with the two players bound over, will be watched very closely by outside college football fans, and before I form an opinion on it I'd like to see all the angles.

I like the idea of the Grand Experiment and think it's attempt is a valuable thing. However, I get skeptical when I see inconsistencies in it. Guess you can tell I hope he comes down like a ton of bricks on these two players. Maybe its my age (50s) or that I believe a Coach holds special sway over these kids, but I'd like to see him hold their feet to the fire.

by Reed on May 5, 2007 5:19 PM EDT reply actions

The 'Grand Experiment'

It's becoming painfully clear that most people have absolutely no clue what the so-called 'Grand Experiment' was, or is, all about. Paterno himself didn't name this philosophy; some one else created that label during an impromptu interview in the late '60's.

The whole idea was that a major college football team could successfully compete at the highest levels by using actual student-athletes. At the time, football scholarships were nearly unlimited in number; schools such as Nebraska, Texas and Oklahoma would routinely sign every quality player they could convince to enroll. Grant scholarships to the top 4 QB's in the nation? Perfect. We'll play one, and keep the other 3 from playing against us. 40 or 50 (or more) scholarships a year weren't uncommon.

Academic oversight - whether by schools, or the NCAA - was virtually non-existent. These were football factories, and no one felt the need to apologize for it. Joe simply felt there should be a better way, and decided to attempt one.

Penn State didn't recruit kids who were academic losers. The thought was also that a kid smart enough to graduate would certainly master the playbook quicker than a kid that couldn't spell or multiply. Why couldn't actual students also be athletes?

All this about every PSU player having to be a choirboy or he gets kicked off the team is ludicrous - at least in the context of the 'Grand Experiment'. Joe is as tough (if not tougher) on class-cutters and academic flunkies as he is on the off-the-field things that will always arise with a team of 80-plus 18 to 20 year olds. Most other major coaches, simply put, are not.

by Pete the Streak on May 5, 2007 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Pete...

Thanks for the info, and I agree that Paterno has always held academics in high importance, and that's a real source of pride for PSU.

Let me ask you & other posters on BSD a question (since this is a site with actual discussions).

= In light of what what we seem to know now regarding what transpired with the players in the apartment, what kind of punishment would YOU like to see handed down? - not what you think will happen, but what you would feel is reasonable and correct for this situation.

Personally I think Scirritto should sit out a year. That might sound harsh but I don't buy into this as a 'boys will be boys' thing at all. He had ample time to make a decision on what to do, and he chose exactly the wrong way to handle it. He purposefully chose to break the law and manipulate the situation so that others would be affected by his poor decisioning and escalated what could have been a relatively minor situation into something completely different.

Baker I think needs some strong actions also, but I'm less inclined to fault him as I am Scirritto for basically creating this sh*tstorm.

Anyway, I'd be interested to heard what the PSU fans on this site feel about they think should happen.

by Reed on May 6, 2007 7:48 AM EDT reply actions

Reed

Shheesh - after re-reading your post and my reply, it looked like I was trying to hammer you. Sorry about that. I just see more and more of the "so much for that 'Grand Experiment' crap - Paterno's such a hypocrite" stuff that it starts to wear on me. Sigh......didn't mean to appear to target you.

Proper punishment? Good question. Prior to the hearing, I was pretty much in the 'they're all screwed' camp. I expected the hearing to clarify some things, and that we'd all have a better idea of what actually happened. Shows what I know.

The hearing was a mess; the apartment dwellers couldn't even agree whether a beer keg was present, let alone specific players. The DA subpoenaed a ton of folks, and sent most home without testifying. Prosecution witnesses that already testified were mixing and talking with others yet to do so. The entire thing seemed a circus.

Still, I can't see how Scirrotto isn't in deep shit. Even if no legal charges end up sticking, he did indeed make the phone call that got the 'posse' rolling. It's possible the only ramifications may come from Paterno; he can't be happy about the press coverage, and we know how he hates phone calls (right, Conner?). ;-)

But the question remains: what the hell actually happened?

At this point, even if Scirrotto's charges are eventually dropped, I see a couple game suspension just for the call and the trouble it led to. This is assuming the OJA doesn't suspend him for a semester, which is still possible. If only misdemeanor criminal charges stick, I would look for a season-long vacation. For a felony, possible dismissal. Damn.

From all I've heard, Scirrotto's a decent guy, and I'd hate to see his career go up in flames. He screwed up, though. Today, everything gets reported and disseminated instantly; there's no time for cover-ups or spin. There's also not much 'innocent until proven guilty', as the Duke guys found out. The world has changed from when I was an undergrad (PSU '78).

by Pete the Streak on May 6, 2007 12:09 PM EDT reply actions

My two cents

The two should be suspended for the year, but Paterno has shown an easy hand on misbehavior of this type in the past - remember he got in hot water for saying Johnson's DUI was "no big deal." I think Joe will see what charges stick before making up his mind.

By the way Pete, your Grand Experiment post was probably the best I've seen in all my years of trolling the internet. Bravo. I, like you, hate that this off the field stuff gets linked with the Grand Experiment, I was going to write an article on this very subject over at The Nittany Line but I could not have done a better job than you.

by Galen on May 6, 2007 3:19 PM EDT reply actions

The Grand Experiment

Thanks, Galen, for the kind words, but I encourage you to go ahead and write the article. I was simply venting, and slapped together an overview of how I see things. You're an excellent writer, and get lots of exposure at The Nittany Line. This misconception (by too many people) that everything is Experiment-related just drives me nuts sometimes.

You'd do us all a huge favor. Do it, please!

by Pete the Streak on May 6, 2007 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Can I ask a favor?

I will if you let me copy what you posted. I will give you all the credit and add to it, but I simply can't do a better job, that's a great start. May I borrow what you said?

by Galen on May 7, 2007 7:35 AM EDT up reply actions

Cut and Paste

Stealing material is what the internets are for! Where do you think I get 75% of what I write here?

Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

Hail to the Lion!

by BSD on May 7, 2007 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions

Galen

By all means - help yourself, if you think it may be useful.

Although there's nothing wrong with Mike's idea, either: take the qwerty discount!

by Pete the Streak on May 7, 2007 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions

Pete Nailed It

I can't add to anything Pete said about the Grand Experiment.

My gut feeling is this is no big deal when you compare it to DUI, theft, or drugs. It was just a fight. Technically they barged through a door which brings felony charges into it, but at the end of the day it was just a fight.

The problem with passing judgement is we don't know all of the details. Did Scirrotto indeed call his teammates with the intent of ganging up on the kid that punched him? I don't believe that. I think it's more likely he wanted to fight the kid one-on-one but didn't want to do it on the street because the kid had two buddies with him and AS was with his girlfriend. I suspect he followed the guy to his apartment to challenge him to a gentleman's fight in the alley but didn't feel good about going in alone. I think he called his teammates to watch his back and nothing more, but Baker got crazy and went looking for a fight and things got out of control quickly.

I'm sure Paterno has talked to each player involved and has a pretty good idea about what the truth is. If I'm correct, Scirrotto will get one or two games. Baker may sit out four games or more. Anyone else who admits to throwing a punch sits a game. And that's it. I think he will push Judicial Affairs to suspend some of these guys for the summer semester to get that out of the way, but the effect on the football season will be minimal.

Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

Hail to the Lion!

by BSD on May 6, 2007 4:20 PM EDT reply actions

The door makes a huge difference

Remember: in many states, if somebody's breaking into your house, you have the legal right to shoot them. It's a HUGE difference between that and a mutual fight on the street (especially since the posse apparently injured some people who weren't even involved in the street incident).

It does us no favors for you to go all homer like this. Seriously - I have to remind you again, this kind of rationalization is exactly how the 1980s Miami fans got so laughable.

by M1EK on May 7, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Irrelevant

None if this matters until the the trial is over. If they're found guilty, they're screwed. If they're found innocent, who knows? And then there's always the possibility of a plea bargain.

As of right now, the prosecution has been inconsistent at best, and I'm beginning to wonder what really happened in there. If the plaintiffs and witnesses cannot even agree on what type of party it was, why should we believe anything else they say? Once again, we're going to have to wait and see.

All in all, I believe punishment DOES need to be handed down to Scirrotto and Baker. However, you need to remember that drunken college kids will act stupid sometimes, and this wouldn't even be a big deal if they weren't football players. To an extent, "boys will be boys," and defending a girl's honor is (while still stupid) a MUCH better reason to go after someone than would be almost anything else. However, Scirrotto's lack of prior trouble (I have no idea about Baker) should be a strong point of contention when deciding between kicking him off the team and suspending him for a couple of games. Without trying to sound too much like a homer, I'm leaning towards the latter as an appropriate punishment. People make mistakes, and this is why pencils have erasers. Look at Josh Hamilton (Cincinnati Reds) for crying out loud! Curtailing Scirrotto's future over ONE incident is just senseless, but once again, we'll just have to see how it turns out. Until then, speculation is pretty much useless.

Sorry for the rambling.

by Cpiritual27 on May 7, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Perps Have The Upper Hand

I was involved in a bar fight with some buddies years ago and I would say this......for what its worth, when something like this happens it is very difficult to keep your senses about you especially when you are the one on the receiving end of the beat down. Fists fly, bodies everywhere, anxiety, stuff getting broken....now throw in having the people in your apartment being PSU Football players and that will add a level of anxiety that makes clear recolletion almost impossible. Its one thing for 25 people in a cramped space watching two people go mano y mano.....but you mix a mob in a small space and some booze....its no wonder the alleged victims are having a hard time getting their story straight. They were probably too busy sharting themselves.

Eric Watters Atlanta, Ga.

by ech2os on May 7, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Fights etc.

Take it easy, M1EK. No need to call people homers just because they have a different opinion. And the Miami analogy is getting old. That's a sick culture surrounding that program. People put music to the video of the FIU fight last year and posted it on youtube. Miami message boards heralded the fight saying "Miami is Back!" I think we're a long way away from that and I don't see Penn State walking too far down that road. Nobody is looking at the Scirrotto/Baker situation and saying, "I like to see our players being aggressive like that." You won't hear our announcers saying, "You don't just come into the HV like that."

At the end of the day I still contend it was just a fist fight. Nobody was seriously injured. Going forward nobody has any damages. If I were Paterno I would make them apologize, run some extra laps, an extra hours of study hall every Friday night, and make them sit out the FIU game. Then I would be done with it. I think the punishment from judicial affairs will be more severe than what we'll see from Paterno.

Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

Hail to the Lion!

by BSD on May 7, 2007 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Absolutely false

"Nobody is looking at the Scirrotto/Baker situation and saying, "I like to see our players being aggressive like that." "

I've seen sentiment like that all over FOS and BWI. Haven't you? I've also seen a lot of repulsive stuff posted about the other participants in the original fight.

by M1EK on May 9, 2007 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes, but...

...it's also their job to write something provocative. You have to take it with a grain of salt.

by Cpiritual27 on May 9, 2007 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Miami comparison...

What sets Miami fans apart from the rest of the world is not just their acceptance and condoning poor (sometimes criminal) behavior, but lauding it. PSU fans are a far cry from that. At the most I've read some ridiculous postings regarding 'defending honor' and 'chivalry' on the message boards. One post went so far as to say that the whole situation was good because the PSU players had to maintain the Penn State football 'street cred' (I'm not making this up!) as if to be able to show their faces on the mean streets of State College, PA.

But 99.9% of what I've read from PSU fans is not in favor of that type of behavior - no matter who started what. And, almost all want to see some sort of discipline handed down.

by Reed on May 7, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions

What set Miami apart in the 1980s

"What sets Miami fans apart from the rest of the world is not just their acceptance and condoning poor (sometimes criminal) behavior, but lauding it."

How it started (remember, I keep talking about the 1980s; I haven't lived in the area since the mid 1990s!) was in accepting and condoning the poor and criminal behavior. Ironically, compared to their competition in the Big East (and the Eastern Independents before that), Miami always had relatively high academic standards, by the way.

It was in condoning acts of thuggery (like this one) where they started their 1980s decline.

Note that Oklahoma and a few other programs were similarly bad back then - it's just that Miami is the brand name for this particular kind of program.

Here's the thing: you accept and condone thuggish behavior (and, yes, failing to strongly punish Scirotto is accepting/condoning it) long enough, and you eventually get to the point where you laud it like Miami fans do now.

by M1EK on May 9, 2007 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Making judgement before facts are out again

Some people said the players were invited in, which I can absolutely see happening. Some people say they came to the door and said they were looking for a guy in a red polo and he was asked to leave. Some people say he was told he could stay. The point is there are so many different stories, I'm glad you could see what happened all the way from your Ivory Tower to make your judgments already.

by Nick Blonde on May 8, 2007 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions

Pete - no problem...

I didn't read your reply to my post as negative in any way, more like you are frustrated in the misconceptions people might have.

Thanks to all for your opinions. I guess I differ in my outlook as I feel that once Scirrotto knowingly escalated things (and I believe that was what the phone call was about) he took on the responsibility for it. So, as I said I feel he should sit for a season. I'd hate to see him lose his career over this also, but sitting a season and being allowed to compete next year would fit the bill IMO. Harsh, fair and redeemable.

This is an interesting case study in a way - and if you can take being a PSU football fan out of the equation - it's pretty complex with the three different bodies of judgment the players have to face. Throw in what ultimate outcome you want from whatever sanctions are levied (punishment, rehabilitation, deterrent) and there are lots of different outcomes.

So, another opinion here - I don't think this will torpedo the team's chances of success this year. It could impact beyond the field, but I was projecting 8 or 9 wins anyway (I think PSU fans take ND too lightly) and still feel they will end up right around there. Certainly no worse than 8 wins I think, and could easily bump up to 10 with a break here or there.

Lastly, thanks for letting this PITT fan contribute without getting broadsided. I've told Mike before that's what I appreciate about this site, and why it's fun to weigh in on his subjects. And on that note...

P/S: Sooner or later can we put the phrase "Not a Penn Sate kind of kid" to rest?

by Reed on May 6, 2007 5:31 PM EDT reply actions

Agree with a Pitt fan?!?

I guess so, but the way I look at it is is should not be looked at as a fistfight and a one game suspension. He's a bright kid and knew damn well what he was getting in to. That's what gets me, don't you think he should have at some point thought "maybe I shouldn't be getting involved in this?"

Also, the whole "boys will be boys" is a joke. These kids are given an incredible opportunity to have an education handed to them, and a chance to be local celebrities. If they accept those privilages then there is no excuse for these irresponsible actions.

I don't want to see AS off the team but a 1 year suspension is what he should get. If not for the stupidity of his actions factor alone. I understand the gentleman that was on the recieving end of Conners Jerky Boy moment was a friend of Paterno right? Regardless, if he recieved four games, for a 3 on the bad judgement meter, then AS should get a year.

by nittanyroar on May 7, 2007 10:12 PM EDT reply actions

joepadon....

PITT and PSU fan actually, but thanks. I agree with your point re: Scirritto having the opportunity to take a step back and having the whole situation in the apartment never happen - to me that's key in all this. There was certain point in time, when the two students went (ran?) back to the party, that Scirritto could have just turned and walked away. Since he didn't though, and made that call, I feel the responsibility from that moment on rests on his shoulders.

I read that his father is a NJ Police Officer - you would have thought that he would have had a long talk with his son prior to this explaining how easy it is to get in legal trouble over seeming minor things.

by Reed on May 8, 2007 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions

The Thing is Guys

There is no proof that Scirrotto called up his teammates with the intent of starting Wrestlemania. I think it's more likely he wanted to fight the guy one on one but was afraid to go to the apartment alone. I think he called his teammates just to make sure he didn't get jumped from behind. I think Chris Baker got a touch of bloodlust and wanted a fight and that's when things got out of control.

This is just my opinion. I think Scirrotto is smart enough to know getting the team in a brawl would be bad. I think it's more reasonable to say he had other intentions but things just got out of control. In my opinion Baker is the troublemaker here and deserves harsher punishment. Again, this is just my interpretation of the events and doesn't amount to a hill of beans, but it's just as valid as the interpretation of events put forth by the DA and pushed forward as truth by the media mob mentality.

Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

Hail to the Lion!

by BSD on May 8, 2007 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions