Penn State In The Computers: Where Reason Isn't In The Dictionary
You've probably read by now that Penn State is a consensus #3 in both the Coaches' and AP Poll.
The Harris Poll, which usually mirrors the AP, also has PSU ranked #3, although the gap appears to be a bit narrower between #2 and #3 as compared to it's non-BCS equivalent, the AP. They also received four of the 113 first place votes.
Five the the six computer polls used in the BCS are currently out, allowing us to take kind of sneak peak at what the formula will spit out next week.
In depth after the jump...

Jeff Sagarin has Penn State in the #6 spot. They are hurt badly by what his computer considers a very weak schedule, ranked #74 in that nation. What is strange, though, is that Oklahoma State, who comes in at #5, has one less win (6-0 vs 7-0) and actually has a weaker SOS (#94). Same goes for Ball State (#5 in poll, SOS #107).
Sagarin also puts out a different formula, one that is deemed a bit more accurate, that has Penn State ranked #3. This set of numbers includes margin of victory and can't actually "count" per BCS rules. While the ranking appears a bit more in line with the human voters, there is something funky going on with Sothern Cal, who comes in at #2 in large part because Ohio State is at #10 and 3-3 Oregon State managed to score high enough for the #17 spot.
The Colley Matrix looks a lot more like the AP, with the top three going Texas, Alabama, Penn State. They mark Oregon State as PSU's best win to date and have the SOS at #105 nationally. Michigan State comes in at #6 and his system also put Ohio State one spot ahead of USC (#8 and #9, respectively).
Anderson & Hester loves them some mid-majors. They put PSU in the #5 spot behind the usual suspects but them some that aren't: Boise State (#3) and Utah (#4).
(note: the following two rankings have been updated; there were mistakes in the compilation site I was pulling from)
Billingsley pulls Penn State into the #6 spot . They follow three one loss teams: USC (#3), Oklahoma (#4), and Ohio State (#5). This is where not being allowed to include points for and against really handicaps the computers. Penn State was dominant against Oregon State and Wisconsin, but those scores aren't reflected in this list when comparing PSU to USC and OSU. Regardless, I'm not sure how Ohio State can be ahead of Penn State when they have, for the most part, very comparable schedules.
Massey moves Penn State down three spots to #10 and is, similar to Billingsley, filled with some strange quarks. This is yet another example of the computers having a tough time understanding the Oregon State upset as USC holds the #4 spot here. This system gets even stranger, however, as both Virginia Tech and North Carolina are both ranked higher than the Lions. I'm going to just assume this is a sample size issue as there isn't much in the way of a logical explanation for those two schools being so high.
Wolfe's ranking don't appear available until the official release next week, but a somewhat related ranking system called the Big XII Computer Rankings "FACT" has PSU at #4 behind Texas, Oklahoma (?!), and Oklahoma State. Missouri is also somehow #5 and Texas Tech comes in at #7; that's the Big XII in four of the top five spots, five of the top seven.
What to make of this so far. With the data we have, Penn State appears to have the 5th best computer average. This is two spot lower than their human poll counterparts and probably not enough to drop them in the actual formula. It's becoming painfully clear that the SOS is going to be a major issue if things get sticky down the road. It's way to early to start worrying about it, but with Illinois' loss to Minnesota, Michigan's loss to Toledo and previous losses by Ohio State and Michigan State, the computers will probably continue to hold a lower average than the human polls even if the team continues to win.
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Just imagine
If we’d kept Arkansas State on the schedule instead of picking up Oregon State.
by Cairo on Oct 13, 2008 12:04 PM EDT 0 recs
A little from the sports pundits
brought to you by msnbc.com
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27149214/
PSU is just one of the teams mentioned in this weekend recap article, but we are spoken of very highly. The closing paragraph of our section is one that’s gotta make you chuckle a little:
Picture this: The Nittany Lions win the national championship. Coach Paterno, 82 years old and 59 seasons in at Penn State as an assistant or head coach, enters the office of the athletic director. "So about that contract extension …"
"the secret to loving your job is having a hobby that you really despise"
by nitwit86 on Oct 13, 2008 12:09 PM EDT 0 recs
I AM NOT going to start worrying about this shit now.
Looking at this logically, and without emotion at this point, Sagarin’s rankings are hilarious. How in the hell do we have one more win, but yet are behind to two teams with lower SOS than us?
We control our own fate by winning. I think we clearly are one of the top teams in the country (Alabama eking by Kentucky is not very impressive, and Texas falling behind 14-3 and giving up 35 points isn’t exactly domination). Let’s just be calm and rational at this point (and that’s bad when I’m the voice of reason and calm; ask my boys). We’re right where we need to be.
by Ab4PSU on Oct 13, 2008 12:47 PM EDT 0 recs
“How in the hell do we have one more win, but yet are behind to two teams with lower SOS than us?”
We aren’t. We’re 3rd in Sagarin’s ratings. The schedule strength (average rating of our opponents) shown on the website isn’t the schedule strength of the ELO-CHESS ratings. It’s the schedule strength for the “RATING” (the purple number).
by Bleed Blue 'n White on
Oct 13, 2008 4:35 PM EDT
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The computer polls
tend to “even out” a bit more as the season goes on. Also: there’s a reason they wait until after week 8 to release the “official” polls.
It always seems (and probably is the case) that the computers overrate teams with tough early schedules, while underrating the teams with tough late season schedules), until those later games are actually played, which tends to smooth out the strength of schedule a bit more.
We have just played our first of our three “toughest” games of the season. (My rankings of tough games on our schedule goes tOSU, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Illinois). Of course it doesn’t help us much that the Big 10 really DOES look weak this year no matter how you look at it. Sure, it makes it (look) a bit easier to go undefeated, but that could potentially hurt us in the rankings.
With that said, though, if Alabama and Texas win out the season, especially taking into account their conference championship games, then Penn State has no hope of going to the title game, even if we are undefeated. There is still probably a decent chance that one of those teams could even lose a game and either them, or someone else from their conference, will play in the NC game. If that happens, the humans will still probably look favorably on us and put us at least at #2, but the computers and SOS could come back to bite us.
by The JuggerNitt on Oct 13, 2008 12:57 PM EDT 0 recs
SOS = mediocre
First, half the season really isn’t enough time for the computers to get their act together. 6 or 7 games really isn’t a big sample size. Once we hit 10 games or so, the computers will be much more accurate. Most teams still have only 2 or 3 conference games under their belt.
Second, PSU’s SOS isn’t all that great right now. If you follow SEC fan logic, you’d say PSU beat their opponents impressively thereby ruining their record and sending their season into a complete tailspin. (And any losses would be a result of every other team being a world beater in the SEC.) But in the non-SEC world, PSU’s best wins are over three teams that all have 3 losses, though of those 9 collective losses by Illinois, Oregon State and Wisconsin, 3 are to PSU, 1 is to Utah, 1 is to OSU, 1 is to Missouri and 1 is to Minnesota. I think PSU’s SOS will improve as some of their early opponents move into easier portions of their schedule and PSU works its way into its tougher games. But it will not improve enough to match up with the Big 12 or SEC champion.
by gcdyersb on Oct 13, 2008 1:10 PM EDT 0 recs
Agreed
An early look at SOS and computer rankings are always cause for fear, but to borrow a quote from Harold and Kumar, “The universe tends to unfold as it should.” Let’s let things play out a little bit, and see where we stand in December.
by jimbo2psu on
Oct 13, 2008 2:26 PM EDT
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Imao....
if scoring offense, scoring defense, margin of victory and turnover margin are the only true barometers of success (as we hear trumpeted by every talking head) then I hit the pillow every night as serene the Buddha until this team proves me otherwise
"michigan : a mitten jerking-off it's upper peninsula since 1837"
by conquering lion in the 215 on Oct 13, 2008 1:24 PM EDT 0 recs
It just doesn't matter this year
I am normally knees deep into figuring out where we’ll be ranked, projected SOS, etc (at least I was in the 90s?!). But that said, this year its very simple:
If Alabama and Texas / Oklahoma State win out, then we will not play for the title. Period. The Big 10 is too weak this year. And though it would really, really hurt, I’d have no real complaint this time. The system in place will put us on the outside looking in.
But an undefeated PSU beats out all one loss teams in both of the human polls. Barring a colossal computer gaffe (PSU sub 12 collectively), it won’t matter and we’ll be in the BCS title game.
by boston_zenos on Oct 13, 2008 3:14 PM EDT 0 recs
Alabama’s remaining schedule is seemingly as “easy” as ours the rest of the way out, with two main exceptions: 6 regular season games left to our 5, and the always tricky SEC title game, which will likely be the winner of the Florida/Georgia “Worlds Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party.” Its not awful but its no cakewalk either.
I honestly can’t see Texas going better than 11-2 (including the Big XII title game). Oklahoma was only step one of a torrid 4-game stretch: Mizzou, Ok St, Texas Tech the next 3 weeks, and an away game at Kansas is also mixed in there. If you really think they’re going to be able survive that stretch without a defense you’re crazy. Sidenote – I’m sick and tired of these Big XII teams with no defense getting the accolades they get. Texas is good in many respects and deserve all the credit in the world for beating Oklahoma by double digits but they aren’t going 12-0 by simply outscoring teams.
The bottom line is, outside of BYU/Utah, or Boise St, or Tulsa, if Penn State doesn’t go undefeated then the national championship game will be a matchup of 11(or 12)-1 teams. If we go beat Michigan State on Nov. 22nd for our 12th win of the year, we’ll be sitting at home for two weeks wondering who we’ll be playing for the national title. Its as simple as that.
by blogue20 on
Oct 13, 2008 3:47 PM EDT
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I'd complain. Big Time.
Stupid-ass BCS even has in place a schedule where they could easily run a 4 team playoff, but they won’t do it. You’d think after Auburn in 2003 that something would be fixed.
I don’t want to see 16 or even 8 teams in a playoff. But a system where a major team can go undefeated and get shut out is absolutely absurd.
by PSU Mudder on
Oct 13, 2008 3:58 PM EDT
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There are what, 119 teams in Division IA? How many conferences? In the Big Ten alone, you can get 2 undefeated teams. If you work it out, you can probably get at least 20-24 teams undefeated in a season. Even in just the BCS conferences, you could easily end up with more than 4.
Now, the likelihood of that happening is low, but still. You’re always going to have a possibility that a team can go undefeated and still get shut out until you have a giant playoff.
If you really don’t like that, you shouldn’t be complaining about a lack of a playoff. You should be complaining that Division IA needs to be split again (which it probably does), or that the scheduling should be regulated by NCAA.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on
Oct 13, 2008 4:30 PM EDT
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Sure, it's not perfect
But how many times have 5 teams gone undefeated? Once? And that was on a ten game schdule without 85 schollies.
The chances of that happening again are slim to none, while 3 undefeated teams probably happens once a decade.
I actually don’t want a playoff, I think it cheapens the regular season, and that’s waht makes college football so special. And if you lose a game — so be it — you take your chances.
But there has to be a way to keep a 3rd undefeated team from getting totally screwed, and turning the BCS into a 4 team tourney is a great way to do it.
by PSU Mudder on
Oct 13, 2008 4:39 PM EDT
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Then what about something like
The college football season can not end until there are no more than 1 undefeated team at the end of the season, or something along those lines. Essentially what a +1 format would achieve. Of course then you’d still have the problem of when there are no undefeated teams, but a handfull of 1loss teams.
by The JuggerNitt on
Oct 14, 2008 11:44 AM EDT
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What drives me crazy about Texas.
1. No RB
2. No TE
3. No Defense
by Cairo on Oct 13, 2008 3:58 PM EDT 0 recs
We'll do our best to take advantage of that this weekend
(“We” being Mizzou….though I was born and raised a Penn State fan until I went to college at Mizzou)
Am real glad to see the Lions playing so well…the scoreboard updates I was getting during our game against Okie State were some of the only happy moments for me during that game :-)
"Write a wise saying and your name will live forever." - Anonymous
Rock M Nation
by The Beef on
Oct 13, 2008 4:15 PM EDT
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Nice!
I live in Kansas City and design football fields for a living. I worked on Faurot Field a couple of years ago. If it doesn’t involve PSU, I always root for universities that have paid a portion of my salary. Go Tigers.
by Cairo on
Oct 13, 2008 4:24 PM EDT
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Designing gridirons?
Dude… you have got to be kidding? What an awesome job! I am sure it is not as easy as it sounds but I can’t think of a better way to incorporate your work and your passion. Good on ya!
If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame.
by TheMightyErik on
Oct 14, 2008 5:37 AM EDT
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Well..I have to say you did good work then...
Field has looked good ever since they put down the field turf…I think everyone agrees it sucks we dont have grass anymore, but we just cannot grow it down there on the surface.
"Write a wise saying and your name will live forever." - Anonymous
Rock M Nation
by The Beef on
Oct 14, 2008 9:34 AM EDT
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Statistical rankings
They’re not “computer rankings,” they’re “statistical rankings.” They don’t run a simulation of the remaining season or anything goofy like that. The ideas behind most of the rankings are hundreds of years old. Except for Billingsley. That guy’s a crackpot.
The reason for the spread in where Penn State’s placed is because they’re undefeated. Teams that are undefeated are basically impossible for those systems to rank well, because they typically work by maximizing the likelihood of each result (i.e. “how bad can I make USC to make the USC loss to Oregon State look more likely, without making the other games that USC’s won too unlikely”).
An undefeated team breaks that, because, obviously, the rating that makes Penn State’s results “most likely” is infinite. So the ratings systems use various different mechanisms to deal with undefeated teams – one way would be to inserting a likelihood distribution for team strengths, and adding that in. So Penn State wouldn’t be “infinitely good” because infinitely good teams don’t come along that often.
That method, however, would basically “floor” Penn State’s rating, because presumedly the prior distribution for team strengths is steep. (Guess which system uses that method).
One other method would be to rescale the ratings, such that the “best” rating isn’t infinite, but, say, “1.0”. Then, you could just average all of the possible results of an undefeated team, and get a result that way. That tends to produce a result that’s much higher, and it’s essentially how Colley’s rankings work.
You could also use a stepwise-convergence method to get to maximum likelihood, which would mean that a team that goes undefeated would “creep towards” an infinite rating, depending on the strength of the opponent they beat. That’s essentially how Sagarin’s ratings work.
Note the teams in Sagarin’s ELO-CHESS ratings. All undefeated at the top.
1: Alabama 6-0
2: Texas 6-0
3: Oklahoma State 6-0
4: Utah 7-0
5: Ball State 7-0
6: Penn State 7-0
Also, the reason that the “schedule strength” doesn’t seem to be right for the order of these teams is that the schedule strength is based on the “combined rating,” whereas the ELO rankings are based solely on ELO results.
Also to be noted is the fact that Sagarin’s PREDICTOR rating is noticeably biased towards high-scoring teams who blow out other teams, as he doesn’t have a decent 2D game-output-function (i.e. a 20-7 win looks the same as a 45-32 win). Hence USC first, Florida second, Penn State third.
Bottom line: Don’t pay attention to the statistical rankings this early in the year. They don’t have enough data yet, and they’re still severely hamstrung by undefeated teams.
Also, Billingsley’s a crackpot. He’s since pulled down the description of his rating system, which is too bad, because it’s hilarious.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Oct 13, 2008 4:25 PM EDT 0 recs
It’s called “ELO-CHESS” because Arpad Elo developed the system to rank chess players. Chess is a difficult game to rank players in, because you get no other information besides “win, lose, or tie.” There’s no score. It has nothing to do with chess other than that.
It’s widely used in sports rating systems, and if you play online computer games, it’s probably used there as well. Most notably, it’s used in the official FIFA world rankings for women’s soccer (and in World of Warcraft, depending on what you consider "notable").
If you want to make fun of it, find a picture of some math geeks or something. That’s the best way. :)
by Bleed Blue 'n White on
Oct 13, 2008 4:40 PM EDT
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Interesting.
Please note that I’m not making fun of you – I appreciate the description of the computer rankings. It’s all so confusing in my pea brain.
by Cairo on
Oct 13, 2008 4:45 PM EDT
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I should note that it sucks – really, really sucks – that the BCS allows the methods behind the ratings to be “secret.” There’s only really 1 rating system that details, in full, the method behind the system – Colley’s rankings. The others are only half-described, and I usually have to glean how they work from the results that come out.
Ooh, ooh! Billingsley’s description of his crackpot system is back up now here!
Billingsley really needs to be chucked from the BCS. His system is completely ad-hoc, and we already have an ad-hoc method for ranking teams. I believe we call it “human polls.”
by Bleed Blue 'n White on
Oct 13, 2008 4:57 PM EDT
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Holy hell...
After reading your post I feel like I just had to take the SAT again but it was in Portugese.
If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame.
by TheMightyErik on
Oct 14, 2008 5:40 AM EDT
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I think we have a stats guy amongst us...
thanks for losing my historical mind on about the third sentence.
Success without honor is like an unseasoned dish, it will fill you up but it won't taste good. - Joe V. Paterno
by carolinaeasy on
Oct 14, 2008 10:11 AM EDT
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Uh-huh
I understood the words ‘crackpot’, ‘method’, and ‘hilarious’.
Somehow, though, I feel smarter for just having read that.
Thanks. I think.
'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'
by Pete the Streak on Oct 13, 2008 4:35 PM EDT 0 recs
Just remember
If every member of the PSU football team played chess with every member of the ‘70s group ELO, Jeff Sagarin’s formulas calculate that PSU would win 87.56% of the time. This is largely affected by their performance against Wisconsin last week. Better football teams make better chess players. Or not. Or something. I don’t know.
I know why we have robots, but I still hate robots.
by Cairo on
Oct 13, 2008 4:43 PM EDT
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Don't hate all robots
Coolest robot ever!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYUI8QmOpFg&feature=related
If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame.
by TheMightyErik on
Oct 14, 2008 5:44 AM EDT
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It’s too bad Billingsley took down his description of his rankings. Everyone I’ve ever pointed to that description has come away laughing at the guy. It’s completely made up, with absolutely no justification to it.
It had gems like “I believe a strong defense is important, so I give a boost if a teams hold another team to less than a touchdown.” Good to know that that 6-4 loss Penn State had gave Iowa a boost, because that victory is so much more impressive than a 35-10 victory.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Oct 13, 2008 4:45 PM EDT 0 recs
I'm lost...
Is the only reason this is a “computer ranking” because he updates the rankings thanks to an Excel macro?
This really does sound like a human poll with some extra math involved. I can kinda get behind his explanation of the “accumulating points” portion (his point about Oregon with the injury to Dixon can be followed), but the majority of this stuff is ridiculous! His arguments for “starting position” are absurd (and I’m sure there’s many a WAC/Mountain West team that would like to argue as much). You’ve mentioned the odd “I like ponies, rainbows, and strong defenses” portion. Game site bothers me, starting with a lack of description concerning “neutral field” games (yes, that’s just the start). And the head-to-head “rule” is insane – this would have bumped Pitt ahead of WVU at the end of last season, and that’s only where it starts to unfurl.
Honestly, if this is all it takes to be one of the players deciding who’s playing in January, then I think I’ve found myself a new career.
by IcersGuy on
Oct 13, 2008 5:39 PM EDT
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To be fair, the BCS rankings throw out the highest & lowest statistical rankings. And since Billingsley is almost universally either the highest or the lowest (since, again – makes no sense), it gets thrown out in almost every case. They just need to throw it out in every case.
You’re spot on in that it sounds like a human poll with math involved. Which is why it’s useless. The other statistical rankings accomplish something – they attempt to correct for the known biases of pollsters in a ‘safe’ fashion. But Billingsley’s ratings accomplish absolutely nothing at all.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on
Oct 13, 2008 6:29 PM EDT
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I took an unofficial stab at BCS Rankings
We are comfortably in third:
Texas – 0.9902
Alabama – 0.9592
PSU – 0.8849
USC – 0.7576
Texas Tech – 0.7263
I uploaded a spreadsheet with the top 27 teams to here. I included every team in the top 25 of each human poll and the top 15 of each computer poll. It is possible that some team not listed could actually deserve to make the tail end, but I didn’t care.
by Elihu on Oct 13, 2008 7:51 PM EDT 0 recs















