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15% Of The Time, You Get Into The Championship Game Every Time

Mind-games-1_medium
In the future, sports journalism will look like this.

You see, it's all mind games.  It's throwing around numbers and pretending to make a point and then not making the point and then conditioning what could be perceived as a knock on an entire league and then ragging on a coach as a convenient punch line. 

The most tried and true formula for reaching the BCS championship game is as follows:

1. Play an easy non-conference schedule.

2. Belong to the Big Ten.

 Let's do a quick history lesson.

Number of BCS Championship Bids: 20
Number of Bids From The Big Ten: 3 (or 15%)
Number of Times That Bid Was Ohio State: 3 (or 100%)
Big Ten Ohio State's BCS MNC Record: 1-2

Star-divide

So the point isn't that the Big Ten has an easy path.  You just don't like the way OSU has performed in three games over the last three years.  Why this has anything to do with Penn State I don't know.

There is no logic to the illogical way college football crowns its champions, though. So this is what you get – a nation of fans already howling that Penn State is running an end around on the system.

 

Well, why wouldn’t it? And why should the Nittany Lions feel bad about it?

 Let's talk about this apparent offensive play call that PSU is running "on the system".  Penn State scheduled two BCS teams out of four OOC.  Cuse is terrible but that game was scheduled years ago.  It wasn't a designed "end around".  Oregon State was a last minute attempt at making the schedule much tougher.  After the status of the Cuse game became apparent, Penn State did the opposite of what you are suggesting: they tried to make the schedule more difficult than it was.  And guess what, it worked.  Oregon State beat everyone's favorite USC team. 

Oh, but I'm sure you have an illogical excuse as to why that happened.

Forget about scheduling only major opponents in the nonconference the way Southern California does....It just increases the likelihood of being worn out and having a silly lapse in league play.

 Guess what: great teams do not have silly lapses, that's what makes them great.  They win games against inferier opponents and they do it comfortably. 

Besides, was USC's OOC really that impressive?  They beat up on bad Virginia team (who later lost 31-3 to Duke), get average Notre Dame at home (who has losses to MSU and UNC), and then, and here is where it comes full circle, have just one signature win against the Buckeyes.  That's hardly the gauntlet and considering the next highest ranked Pac10 team is #24 Oregon, their full schedule isn't actually that difficult.

This next paragraph is so bad I have to take it line by line:

Don’t even consider a conference championship game that might result in a loss for a contender.

NCAA rule: no conference with less than 12 teams can have a championship game.  The Big Ten doesn't have a championship game, not because they won't "even consider" it, but because they can't.  Unless they add Notre Dame.  But Notre Dame doesn't want to join anyway.

It keeps shooting the Big 12 in the foot, doesn’t it?

No, it doesn't.  This is Oklahoma in 2003 before their CCG; This is them getting killed in it.  This is them going to the BCS MNC anyway.  It didn't hurt Texas in 2005, or Oklahoma in 2004, either.

Why play 13 games when the pollsters don’t punish you for playing only 12?

 Since when?  This is Michigan after playing 12 games.  This is Michigan after they were punished for not playing 13 games.  Notice how the record didn't change.

There are a lot of misleading statements in this story, but this is probably the worst on:

How difficult is it to win the modern Big Ten? Well, Minnesota still has a shot at the conference title by winding up 11-1. Last season, the Gophers were 1-11. Nice story, but any league where you can go from 1-11 to 11-1 in a single season is under serious suspicion. It just is.

First of all, Minnesota isn't 11-1, they are 7-1.  They will probably lose two games, maybe three, and that's without having to play two of the best three teams in the league.  Even if they win out, they won't 'win' anything.  Yes, they got lucky by missing Penn State and Michigan State, but no one is actually considering them for the MNC, or really even a BCS bid.  Bringing up Minnesota is a pointless argument and I don't understand what it has to do with why Penn State can't play for the crystal.

And just when I think he's going somewhere with this thing:

This isn’t to say Penn State can’t win the BCS championship game. It’s good enough to win any league.

[...]

Paterno shouldn’t apologize for how the season has played out. 

 Agreed and don't worry, he's not. 

2 recs | Comment 66 comments | Digg!

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Just another example of...

…the fact that there aren’t any good “journalists” outside the BSD!

Pat Devlin in '08, er, '09

by Nick7 on Oct 31, 2008 9:25 AM EDT   0 recs

Always love FJM-type posts

So are we getting staff predictions of us against the bye later?

John Madden told me 90% of the game was half-mental...

by TheK-GunNeedsReloaded on Oct 31, 2008 9:31 AM EDT   0 recs

non-staff prediction here

this will be the only weekend of the season where we don’t win.

"the secret to loving your job is having a hobby that you really despise"

by nitwit86 on Oct 31, 2008 10:28 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Another tiresome unsupported arguement from Mr Wetzel and his love affair with USC and their apparantly unfair ranking.
Atleast I can trust the blog community to provide excellent links to support the statements.
Well done Kevin.

by NYC nittany lion on Oct 31, 2008 9:31 AM EDT   0 recs

To quote my friend, Mark Hasty

http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/2008/10/29/conference-title-games-a-friendly-reminder

Another key concept many fans fail to grasp is that conference title games are permitted for 12-member conferences; they’re not mandatory. Given that a title game loss has twice prevented the Big 12’s best team from a national title shot, and it’s smacked around the SEC three times, why do they play these games? I’m not $ure, but if we put our head$ together, we $hould come up with $ome $ort of rea$on.

by Run Up The Score on Oct 31, 2008 9:32 AM EDT   0 recs

Sagarin ratings

I really don’t know if Sagarin ratings are meaningful but by conference this year it is big 12, big 10, acc, then SEC. Sagain ratings
If anyone smarter than me can make sense of this it would be great because it seems winning the B10 does mean something.

I don't know, Mello Yello is pretty awful. What's the worst that could happen?

by psu on Oct 31, 2008 9:36 AM EDT   0 recs

It’s because the SEC has three good teams and a bunch of mediocrity this year. Most years I’d put the SEC middle tier ahead of ours; this year they’re not. LSU’s defense is pathetic, Vandy lost to Duke, and nobody else has done anything of note.

by SpartanDan on Oct 31, 2008 10:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Don't forget

Auburn is a total joke this year after the media crowned them a top ten team before the season.

by BSD on Oct 31, 2008 10:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Agenda

It’s all smoke and mirrors with these writers. They love USC. They hate the Big Ten. They say things like: “Penn State’s most impressive OOC game is Oregon State — but they’re 4-3 and aren’t a very good football team.”

Well what does that say about USC?! They lost to the same team?!@#

It’s all double standards.

Take the bottom half of the SEC and the Big 10:

Illinois
Wisky
Michigan
Indiana
Purdue -- combined record: 15 and 25

Mississippi
Auburn
Mississippi St.
Tennessee
Arkansas —combined record: 17 and 23

Am I supposed to believe that there’s this huge disparity between these lists? You can do the same thing for the B12, and the results are the same.

by millzners on Oct 31, 2008 9:44 AM EDT   0 recs

Big XII Championship

The Big XII and the SEC are not required by law to hold a championship game, it is their prerogative. $o why would they hold an extra champion$hip game that could po$$ibly ruin a contender’$ BC$ chance$? Your guess is as good as mine

by EaglesPhan53 on Oct 31, 2008 9:54 AM EDT   0 recs

is it me...

or does everyone seem to forget that OSU won a national championship and fiesta bowl this decade?

http://glassesofjoe.blogspot.com/

by psudrozz on Oct 31, 2008 10:26 AM EDT   0 recs

Quiet!

The SEC has won every MNC game since the BCS was devised! In fact, no SEC team has ever lost an OOC game! Get your facts straight!

by ReadingRambler on Oct 31, 2008 10:34 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

OSU

They only won the national championship that year because the SEC sat it out to play in the Super Bowl.

by BSD on Oct 31, 2008 10:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

"Let's do a quick history lesson"

Read as: “Let’s look at what’s happened the last two years.”

by speedomike on Oct 31, 2008 10:46 AM EDT   0 recs

He's Right

We don’t deserve to be in the national championship. I would be happy if USC passed us, since they deserve a national title shot. Or maybe Florida. It doesn’t matter that they lost a random conference game! They’re USC and Florida! They always deserve a shot at the national title.

Clearly the Big 10 is in the same league as the MWC and the WAC, right? Undefeated teams are happy as BCS busters.

I hate the media,

by PizzaDelivery on Oct 31, 2008 10:50 AM EDT   0 recs

Luckily

The media doesn’t really matter in the end. The AP has nothing to do with the BCS. 2 of Bama, Texas, and Texas Tech lose and we’re in. And I’m not even 100% sure Texas Tech would jump us.

by speedomike on Oct 31, 2008 10:58 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

actually

we don’t even need 2 of those to lose, just bama would suffice. If TT is undefeated, they’ll jump us, and obviously it is guaranteed that one of Texas or TT will lose.

by The JuggerNitt on Oct 31, 2008 11:58 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Uh...

That would mean that 2 of them would lose. I see your point though. Go Arkansas State!

by speedomike on Oct 31, 2008 12:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

C'mon, be fair

Texas Tech winning out should jump us. Let’s be fair. The Big 12 is a very good conference, and should Texas Tech win out with the schedule they have, they’re a freaking good team.

I don’t think it’ll happen, though. The likelihood is pretty low that Texas Tech is that good.

by Bleed Blue 'n White on Oct 31, 2008 2:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Once more, with feeling

Big Ten teams don’t deserve to play in the MNC because Ohio State choked, Minnesota is having a good year, Oregon State is a mediocre school, and the conference looks almost as bad as the Big East.

Using that logic:
Big 12 teams don’t deserve to play in the MNC because CHOKElahoma choked.
SEC teams don’t deserve to play in the MNC because Vandy is having a good year.
Pac-10 teams don’t deserve to to play in the MNC because Oregon State is a mediocre school.
ACC teams don’t deserve to play in the MNC because they’re almost as bad as the Big East.
Big East teams don’t deserve to play in the MNC because they’re almost as bad as the Big East.

Did I miss anything?

by Aaron PSU on Oct 31, 2008 11:02 AM EDT   0 recs

I totally agree

I actually just posted a similar argument about the strength of the teams non con schedules. Did you know that the conference with the BEST record against non con is the ACC and the worst record is the Big 12. The Big 12 has played 10 non con BCS opponents with a winning record and they are 2-8 against them. How does that make the conference so damn tough? Cause they all beat up on each other? Ohio State would have been undefeated and a top 1/2 team if they had played a non con schedule like Texas!

What makes Minnesota’s non con schedule worse than Okie State’s? Oklahoma State played 1 BCS team in non con……Washington State!!

read the whole post here

jumping offsides

by gman2797 on Oct 31, 2008 11:22 AM EDT   0 recs

correction

Ohio state would have 1 loss and be a top 10 team if they had played a non-con schecule like Texas. Don’t forget about last weekend :-D

by The JuggerNitt on Oct 31, 2008 12:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah

I meant before the game last weekend obviously….but you are right.

by gman2797 on Oct 31, 2008 1:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I suppose this is where I post this old RUTS link

It’s Ohio State that is holding us back. The rest of the Big Ten does quite well against the SEC:

http://runupthescore.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/scoreboard/

by Run Up The Score on Oct 31, 2008 12:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Texas shouldn't go to the MNC game.

After all, they lost 24-7 to Ohio State in 2006 in Austin. It’s totally illogical to subject fans to another Texas choke job.

by Cairo on Oct 31, 2008 11:48 AM EDT   0 recs

2009

One note of concern: if you take away Akron’s win over Syracuse then PSU’s 2009 non-con schedule (Akron Zips, Syracuse Orangemen, Eastern Illinois Sex Panthers, Temple Owls) is 0-10 against BCS schools. In addition, the only PSU road games are Illinois, Minnesota, Northwestern, and the Spartans. I think the schedule is utterly unchallenging and uninspiring.

by Cairo on Oct 31, 2008 12:05 PM EDT   0 recs

Minnesota is at home

Michigan is on the road. Yeah, next year’s schedule is turrible.

by speedomike on Oct 31, 2008 12:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Barkley?

Is that you?

pax et amor

by jtothep on Oct 31, 2008 12:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, oops.

That’s what I meant. Heck, switching Michigan with Minnesota is probably less challenging on the face of it. Turrible hurrible stuff.

by Cairo on Oct 31, 2008 12:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Our 2009 schedule sucks

… which is why I’m really hoping we win the NC, or at least do well, this year. We’ve got a dang good chance of going undefeated even with a weak team next year, and if we don’t do well, we’ve got a good shot at Ohio State’s reputation.

I really, really doubt I’ll be defending Penn State’s schedule at all next year. Which is why I need to do it fervently this year.

by Bleed Blue 'n White on Oct 31, 2008 9:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thank you so much...

…for writing this article. I have read more garbage stories like this on the Rivals Yahoo website this past week than I can count. Whatever respect I had for these sportswriters is long gone.

I am glad PSU trashed their little BCS party by beating tOSU, and I hope the Lions will go all the way…and prove to some SEC or B12 school just how relevant the B10 is, and what the power of PSU football means.

by 84lion on Oct 31, 2008 1:52 PM EDT   0 recs

The picture...

-“Oooooo! Look! A Schooner!”… -“You dumb bastard! It’s a sailboat!…”
Sorry… shameless Mallrat reference
Anyhow, I wrote a strongly worded letter to this clown last night and was so relieved to see that our faithful BSD had fired all portside guns on this jerkoff, as well. Thanks for all you guys do!

If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame.

by TheMightyErik on Oct 31, 2008 1:57 PM EDT   0 recs

A schooner...

IS a sailboat, stupid-head!

Honestly, I stopped reading Wetzel’s columns last year, when he started up this same drivel about PSU/Big Ten weakness (right after Notre Dame). Glad to see he hasn’t changed his tune…

by IcersGuy on Oct 31, 2008 2:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Also noteworthy:

Wetzel and Mark May are teabagging buddies.

I bleed Blue and White.

by Horse N Buggy on Oct 31, 2008 2:19 PM EDT   0 recs

Thanks

I needed that image.

by ReadingRambler on Oct 31, 2008 2:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Skewing the numbers just to make a point...

I don’t mind banging on the Big Ten if it’s justified. There are a few good arguments out there against the Big Ten. But you can’t quote Penn State’s non-con opponents’ record of 11-19 and then compare that to Texas’ entire schedule’s opponents. Here is a more fair comparison:

Penn State non-con opponents’ combined record: 11-19
Texas non-con opponents’ combined record: 14-17
Alabama non-con opponents’ combined record: 10-20

The Big XII is good right now, I get that. But don’t put 63-40 against 11-19 and blame it on Penn State’s non-conference scheduling.

This guy also ignored Ohio State’s tough non-con of the last few years. Shouldn’t they get more credit than USC for going to their house? What about the recent home-and-home vs. Texas? What a blowhard.

by jimbo2psu on Oct 31, 2008 2:47 PM EDT   0 recs

Minnesota still has a shot at the conference title?

AWESOME, I love this country. The Big Ten truly is easy.

another input of logic, IF Minnesota were to “win the conference title” Penn State would have to lose and Ohio State would have to lose again. Which would make the PSU BCS Title hopes moot anyway.

This may not happen very often, but I badly want Penn St to get into the title game and win.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you

by GopherNation on Oct 31, 2008 3:20 PM EDT   0 recs

Thanks, Gopher

BTW – you were great in Caddyshack. Stole the show, I tell ya.

'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'

by Pete the Streak on Oct 31, 2008 4:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He was pretty decent on The Love Boat, as well

If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame.

by TheMightyErik on Oct 31, 2008 4:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Is that true?

If Minnesota won out, they would have an identical record as Penn State and better record than Ohio State. They also have the Rose Bowl tiebreaker in their favor.

"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008

by jesse. on Oct 31, 2008 4:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If PSU wins out, we win the title
If PSU loses & OSU & Minn win out, three way tie for the title
I don’t see us losing twice, and if we, screw it – we don’t deserve a title.

by Tailgate Shogun on Oct 31, 2008 7:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If PSU loses & OSU & Minn win out, three way tie for the title

Correct, but wouldn’t Minnesota techincally have won the Rose Bowl Tie breaker? Thanks Northwestern. Wisconsin blew it though.

"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008

by jesse. on Nov 2, 2008 12:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Tiebreaker scenarios

First off, head-to-head only comes into play if the teams can be split into two groups such that every team in one group beat every team in the other. Then it goes to fewest 1-AA games, then non-conference record, then if there’s still no one eliminated the last team to get the auto-bid is eliminated. (Any time one team drops out, the rest start over.) Illinois and Iowa are mathematically eliminated since one of PSU and MSU has to reach six wins. The remaining five teams alive are PSU, MSU, OSU, Minnesota, and Northwestern. Tie scenarios involving PSU are broken down below:

PSU-MSU: winner of the final week game
PSU-OSU: PSU
PSU-Minnesota: Minnesota (by last appearance)
PSU-Northwestern: Northwestern (by last appearance)
PSU-MSU-OSU: winner of PSU-MSU game (if it’s PSU, by head-to-head; if it’s MSU, head-to-head fails to break the tie but MSU played no 1-AA teams and PSU and OSU each played one)
PSU-MSU-Minnesota: MSU (head-to-head is moot since Minnesota played neither)
PSU-MSU-Northwestern: MSU (if MSU beats PSU, by head-to-head; if not, NW didn’t play PSU so it goes to 1-AA teams)
PSU-OSU-Minnesota: Minnesota (OSU drops out by non-conference record)
PSU-OSU-Northwestern: Northwestern (OSU drops out by head-to-head since the only way this can happen is if they lose to NW)
PSU-Minnesota-Northwestern: Northwestern (PSU drops out by last appearance, then NW wins head-to-head)
Any four-team tie involving MSU and PSU: MSU (either Minnesota or Northwestern will be involved, rendering head-to-head moot)
PSU-OSU-Minnesota-Northwestern: Northwestern (OSU drops by non-conference, then PSU drops by last appearance, then NW wins head-to-head)
Five-way tie: MSU (head-to-head is moot)

by SpartanDan on Nov 2, 2008 3:15 PM EST to parent up   1 recs

Hasn't Northwestern been to the Rose Bowl more recently.

We last went after ’94 & I think they went after ’95.

by Elihu on Nov 2, 2008 10:47 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

our Orange bowl in 2005-6

counts as the automatic BCS bid for Big-10 champ, since that year the Rose Bowl was the Nat’l Champ game.

by The JuggerNitt on Nov 3, 2008 7:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

The Love of the BCS stems from the Love of Debating College Football ad nauseum

Wasn’t too long ago that ESPN and other sportswriters declared the BCS a great system that works itself out eventually, and that all the debates is good for the sport.

That is, until Penn State enters the scene. Then the debate turns morbid and the system is criticized.

by Mr. Rosewater on Oct 31, 2008 4:57 PM EDT   0 recs

The reason all these sportswriters love the BCS

is because it gives them something to write about all season. To explain why their team of choice should be in the MNC game. To make them look like geniuses if that actually happens.

by NJ lion on Oct 31, 2008 7:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Just like always.

Never forget that the PSU / Miami Fiesta Bowl was merely a formality, and was played only to finish off the year and crown the Hurricanes as the BEST TEAM EVAH.

We’ve all read it before, but note the similarities: tight wins, lousy schedule, blah, blah, blah. So, just because I can, I present:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=fiesta87

Every time I read that, I remember getting sooo tight on that last Miami drive you couldn’t have pulled a pin out of my ass with a tractor.

'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'

by Pete the Streak on Oct 31, 2008 7:56 PM EDT to parent up   1 recs

you had pins in your ass?

Strange way to watch the game, but to each his own! Just kidding Pete!

by Lovethosefreakinnittanylions on Oct 31, 2008 9:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm reading the book about the 86 season and 87 Fiesta Bowl

and it’s eerily similar to this season. No one gives a chance, our competition is weak, Miami is going to crush PSU, blah blah blah. Can’t wait to have th last laugh.

by NJ lion on Oct 31, 2008 10:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Great line, Pete

I know how you felt that night as I was in the same boat with you. The best excuse I have ever heard for that night from one of my U friends was this:
“Vinny is colorblind. The reason he threw so many picks is because you guys had white helmets, too. He couldn’t tell them apart.”
He said this with complete conviction and slawart seriousness…

If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame.

by TheMightyErik on Nov 1, 2008 2:30 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

This Just In....

Mark May sez Texas is the #1 team for a reason.

by Mr. Rosewater on Oct 31, 2008 10:00 PM EDT   0 recs

Because Pitt can't be. Right? Sheesh.

'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'

by Pete the Streak on Nov 1, 2008 8:04 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

So far, I sort of agree with him. If they run through the Big12, why shouldn’t they be #1?

by Tailgate Shogun on Nov 1, 2008 12:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That's fine

I don’t have a problem with Texas being ranked #1. They have wins over Oklahoma and Missouri. What I have a problem with is people saying under no circumstances does PSU deserve a shot at the national championship.

by BSD on Nov 1, 2008 2:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Don't have to worry about Texas so much, eh?

If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame.

by TheMightyErik on Nov 2, 2008 4:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

With Sheridan starting this week I've got to concentrate on another team.

Clearly, the Wetzel article is silly for many of the reasons you state. This "Big Ten Problem" is complicated and not easily reduced to "the Big Ten sucks" making the internet a bad forum for discussing it. My personal belief is the power teams in the Big Ten held onto out dated offensive philosophies for too long. This caused Big Ten defenses to be coddled or molded by the offenses. When OSU went outside the conference against good teams that ran the spread the deficiencies were glaring. I do think that you, the PSU fan, would be well served by sticking to your good arguments and moving away from the weak ones.

The best argument you have is being undefeated. If Alabama, Texas Tech, and PSU remain undefeated things will get dicey but that seems unlikely. If one of them loses it is nearly impossible to leave PSU out of the party because you don’t like their OOC schedule or something stupid like that. Beating OSU on the road, at night, is an excellent marquee win. USC’s marquee win is beating that same OSU team at home. If PSU loses they will probably get left out and based on who they lose to, deservedly so.

Some arguments are better left at home. Stop trying to argue the OOC is good. It is accepted that power teams will play one home and home OOC power team. Oregon State and Syracuse do not qualify. Syracuse was good, once, 10 years ago. Leave them out of your argument. Yes, Oregon State beat USC (unless PSU loses USC is not your enemy) but last year Stanford did also. That didn’t mean ND, who beat Stanford, was any good. Plus, you argue that Oregon State is some big win but then later suggest the PAC-10 is weak. PSU’s OOC is weak. Maybe it’s not your fault or you tried but facts are facts.

Now, on to OSU. The problem was OSU 2007. They never belonged in the championship game. They had a completely ridiculous OOC schedule and got by Michigan because of injuries. If OSU had beaten a healthy Michigan team on the road that may have meant something. PSU beating OSU on the road this season represents a much greater achievement than anything OSU 2007 did. Last year was just weird with a 2 loss team winning and all. OSU 2006 was legit. They just got beat. They beat Texas in Texas and a pretty good Michigan team. Then they just got beat.

by blue-imafreak on Nov 6, 2008 11:11 AM EST   0 recs

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