Nitt Picks Is Saying 'Yeah!'
Sometimes in life it's better to let other people do the talking. You are a homer anyway, and so quoting someone else will probably make whatever is said more credible.
Penn State > USC? Yeah! The most disappointing thing about the post-Iowa polls (other than them showing Penn State with a loss, of course) was the fact that so many pollsters found it a forgone conclusion that USC was a more worthy one loss team than the Nittany Lions. My spitting into the rain seemed futile, but the MSM just might catch on after all.
If Oregon State beats Oregon, then could you put USC in the national title game over Penn State? How? Penn State blew out Oregon State and beat Ohio State in Columbus. USC lost to Oregon State and beat Ohio State at home. Besides, USC, in this scenario, doesn't even earn the top spot in the Pac 10, even if it does win a share of the Pac 10 title.
Ok, so that's just one writer who probably doesn't even vote. But the point is not that everyone needs convinced, just that they need to justify it either way.
Computer polls going all "I, Robot"? Yeah! I used to support the fact that the computers are included in the BCS; they seem to apply objective criteria to everyone equally and, therefore, help guard against any sweeping bias. My high regard for the digital changed this season. Dr. Saturday explains it's not the computers' fault.
This is the kind of absurdity that results when you withhold information: If the computers were allowed to take into account margin of victory instead of treating every win as exactly the same, those algorithms would make infinitely more sense (the poll Sagarin would submit if he could has Oklahoma No. 2 and Tech fourth).
Including margin of victory is a double edge sword and, to be honest, those running the BCS are totally justified in excluding it from the formula. It allows the computers to come up with much more logical results, but the problem of excluding them is replaced with the problem of understanding them. Coaches feel the need to take unnecessary end zone shots after the opponent has already put in the second string defense, all to make the victory a +28 instead of +21. When voters see these things they often are able to put them in context, but a computer will not.
Dr. Saturday expands later:
[Computers are] forced to throw out margin of victory by BCS rules, eliminating the difference the humans see in winning 65-21 and winning, say, 3-2. When there are so few games to compare, no win is really just a win, period, but them's the rules.
That's right, of course, but it's not the golden ticket. In my example above, if the team that wins by 28 with a late TD against non-starters better than the team that, up 35, is scored on a la last Saturday's late Michigan State drive against third team players? That two point conversion at the end would make a computer think so. It allows too much manipulation and, besides, doesn't take into account things like weather and officiating.
So what do I think after seeing Penn State two spots lower in the BCS than their consensus human poll average? Seeing them ranked behind Ohio State in Billingsley's poll? Trailing Georgia and Oklahoma State in other formulas?
Just get rid of them. They are imperfect machines that aren't being allowed to use all the data available and don't seem to be adding any value. If you want a broader base for the BCS average, there are other ways of achieving this.
A rivalry is born? Umm...Yeah! No. Adam Rittenberg at ESPN wonders if the fake rivalry didn't "get legs" this weekend.
Dantonio said later that his two timeouts were not a reply to Devlin's touchdown pass.
"There's no motivation there. I think the problem was earlier in the game. I was just trying to give our guys a rest."
Hmm, not so sure I buy that.
One of the things I love about Dantonio is that he doesn't downplay games or certain opponents. He certainly doesn't minimize the Michigan rivalry, and he might have just injected some flavor to a previously bland rivalry with Penn State.
The back-to-back timeouts at the end of the last weeks game made me realize something, but it wasn't that Michigan State is now a rival. It's that MSU might have just done the impossible: replace John L. Smith with someone just as ridiculous and pathetic. Michigan State fans: if you want to lose the "little brother" tag, stop defending a coach that acts like a whinny brat.
The letters come with the bus? Yeah! The first blue bus has been sold, winning bid?
The "ultimate tailgating vehicle" was recently auctioned off on eBay -- a bus Penn State used to transport its football players to Beaver Stadium for home games from 1980 to 2007, the first of several to put up for sale. The winning bid for the first bus on the block: $4,050.
And who says the marketing people at PSU don't know what they are doing? In a line right out of The Price Is Right:
"Entertain friends in style at next season’s tailgates with a vehicle steeped in Penn State football history," read the promotional copy.
Read Related
Comments
"Everyone needs convinced"
You’re from Western PA aren’t you?
by speedomike on Nov 26, 2008 12:15 PM EST 0 recs
"convincing"
I believe the “ed” (past tense)…
" We need MORE cowbell !"
by BlueWhiteLife on
Nov 26, 2008 12:52 PM EST
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What’s wrong with being from Western PA-do I really need to explain? Hardy har.
No, there’s this Western/Central PA thing where people don’t use the words “to be”. Like “the car needs fixed” or “the sheets need washed”.
by speedomike on
Nov 26, 2008 12:59 PM EST
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Its all about efficiency, man
Why add unnecessary syllables if you can make your point with less? Instead of deriding us western PA folks, you should celebrate our lingual innovations.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
by 06Lion on
Nov 26, 2008 1:02 PM EST
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Do you need to run the sweeper before the guests arrive for Thanksgiving?
by speedomike on
Nov 26, 2008 1:32 PM EST
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Thanks for the reminder
I also need to put some salt on the sidewalk so it isn’t slippy.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
by 06Lion on
Nov 26, 2008 1:53 PM EST
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You have salt
Mine’s all.
JoePa for governor
by ReadingRambler on
Nov 26, 2008 2:06 PM EST
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Yinz, Don't forget~
To Dethaw the Turkey tonight, after you red up your rooms, and make a trip to the Jahnt Iggle for last minute Pop n’at. And don’t be nebbin’ around.
by MsYvone on
Nov 26, 2008 2:37 PM EST
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Jagoff
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
by 06Lion on
Nov 26, 2008 2:55 PM EST
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Drives me insane
That’s one of those things that makes me crazy with grammar rage.
by Run Up The Score on
Nov 26, 2008 1:32 PM EST
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What's your opinion on the Oxford comma?
JoePa for governor
by ReadingRambler on
Nov 26, 2008 2:09 PM EST
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Or if your from central PA
You might say the sheets need warshed.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on
Nov 26, 2008 2:52 PM EST
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George Warshington was such a great President
Garsh, if only he were around.
JoePa for governor
by ReadingRambler on
Nov 26, 2008 3:47 PM EST
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One of the rituals of freshman year at PSU
Finding out what part of the English language you butcher. I wasn’t sure if the lack of ‘to be’ was a Western PA thing or if that was just Erie. Oh well, we’ve still got ox roast.
John Madden told me 90% of the game was half-mental...
by TheK-GunNeedsReloaded on
Nov 26, 2008 6:59 PM EST
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Haha, I forgot my name kinda works as an example…
John Madden told me 90% of the game was half-mental...
by TheK-GunNeedsReloaded on
Nov 27, 2008 12:22 AM EST
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Just like junior year
Me (a Philly guy) and 4 Pittsburgh roommates. I couldn’t understand half of what they were saying.
A famous line from Shakespeare: “or not, that is the question”. (See, because the “to be” is unnecessary.)
Also, why do you put on tennis shoes to play basketball?
Boy I miss youse guys.
by NJ lion on
Nov 26, 2008 9:01 PM EST
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AWESOME!
…can you add a cane in there.?!
" We need MORE cowbell !"
by BlueWhiteLife on
Nov 26, 2008 12:50 PM EST
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+1 man...+1!!!
…now THAT is AWESOME!!!
Hey ’fellas…check that out!!!
" We need MORE cowbell !"
by BlueWhiteLife on
Nov 26, 2008 1:21 PM EST
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That Friend...
is Front Page Material!!!
" We need MORE cowbell !"
by BlueWhiteLife on
Nov 26, 2008 1:23 PM EST
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thank you. The original I made this spring for my fantasy football avatar.
by millzners on
Nov 26, 2008 1:42 PM EST
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I am
I need some Ron Cook bashing to make me feel better…
Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
by wookieeman on Nov 26, 2008 12:24 PM EST 0 recs
computer programs only work as well as they are written. It isn’t asking a whole lot to ask the computers to take into consideration the point margins every quarter, every 5 minutes, whatever — instead of the whole game. This is EASY and would categorize running up the score, come-from behind wins, games that weren’t as close as the final score says, etc.
I think the computer programmers they’re using must have graduated from Pitt.
In my opinion the BCS created an Immensely flawed system and acts like it’s out of their control to change or fix it. Get in there and pay some people to write a half-decent computer ranking system! Some kid from MIT could probably have this wrapped up before Jan 1st in his free time.
by millzners on Nov 26, 2008 12:48 PM EST 0 recs
heh, well I'm no kid from MIT
and definitely not a strong computer programmer or statistician.
Also, I have no idea what the criteria are used in the other computer rankings, or how to properly do all the things BB’nW talks about.
But what I did do was write a program that looks at every game, and calculates the margin of victory over the course of the game, and then from the point of where the winning team gains it’s final lead on, gives basically a weighted “margin of victory”.
Basicaly if they had a 7 point lead for the final 5 minutes, they would get a score of 7*5*60 = 2100 for 7 points * 5 minutes * 60 seconds.
If they had a 3 point lead from 5 minutes left in the game until 2 minutes left in the game where they score another TD and have a 10 point lead, then their score was 3*(5-2)*60 + 10 * 2 * 60 = 1740. The loser of the game would get the negative value of the score (in this case -1740)
I figure this puts margin of victory into the game while preventing running up the score at the end, since say someone has a lead of 20 points for the last 10 minutes on, but with 1 minute left scores another TD, their score would only go from 20*10*60 = 12000 up to 20 * (10-1) * 60 + 27 * 1 * 60 = 12420 (only an increase of about 3.5%).
I also figured this could credit teams more for “dominating” a game from start to finish, (a consistent 14 point lead throughout the entire game to me is more impressive than scoring at the very end of the game to win it).
I then basically determined “weights” or “values” for each team, based on their performance through the season, that woudl be used as a multiplier on this game score to come up with a final season score. (The weights were basically adjusted by maximizing the correlation between the weight and the team’s final score when all game scores were added together).
So say you had a team that completely dominated every team it faced, was undefeated, etc, then their weight was likely adjusted to ~1, while a team that was dominated in every game had a value of ~0, and the rest of the teams were distributed throughout. This also served to basically devalue huge blowout wins against very weak teams. If you lost to a team, then the score for that game was multiplied by (1-weight) for that team (so a loss to a highly ranked team wouldn’t hurt as much since 1-0.9 = 0.1, meanwhile a loss to a weak team would hurt more since 1-0.1 = 0.9).
For final team rankings I tried a few different things with penalizing even further for losses, but I haven’t really figured out the best way to do this.
So yeah, the method isn’t completely flawless, and I’m sure there are statistical things I could do to make it better. Also, there is probably some faulty logic in the way I’m giving out scores (One such thing is that in effect a last second win or loss gives a score of ~0, which I guess makes some sense since the teams showed themselves to be about even). Maybe if I added in some sort of minimum score for a win or loss, and then this score would be added to it…I dunno.
It actually worked somewhat decently, though obviously there are some results that stick out.
Here’s where I rank the teams based on their average weighted score across all their games, multiplied by their wins divided by their losses:
1.Oklahoma
2.Florida
3.Texas
4.Boise State
5.Alabama
6.Penn State
7.USC
8.Ball State
9.Utah
10.Texas Tech
11.Missouri
12.TCU
13.Ohio State
14.Oklahoma State
15.BYU
So it appears to have some problems in ranking the BCS teams with respect to the non-BCS teams (or maybe they really are deserving of that rank…I mean for Boise State they are undefeated, and have won all their games quite decisively against not particulary very crappy teams). Also, Alabama is much lower ranked than they should be since they are undefeated (so I’m probably not penalizing losses as much as I should be, or in the way I should be…but then that would only further elevate the undefeated non-BCS teams).
I haven’t really worked on it in a bit, but it only took a couple hours of coding (most of which was spend in actually pulling the data off of the website databases and formatting/compiling/parsing it into what I needed), and I don’t really know what else I should do or want to do, since it isn’t really worth anything except as an exercise in futility (and a little bit of fun). But considering how little time effort I did put into this, and considering how much it looks as good as, or better than, many of the other computer polls out there (at least to me), I don’t think it is completely worthless.
by The JuggerNitt on
Nov 26, 2008 1:19 PM EST
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oh and also
these rankings were derived solely from that one value (the “margin of victory throughout the game”) and could probably be even further improved with using other statistics (like maybe offensive/defensive yardage or something). but again I just wanted to see how this would rank teams using the criteria I came up with.
Those criteria were formed when I thought to myself, “man, the pollsters have such a huge say in the rankings, yet they don’t get to watch every game, since that is basically impossible to do. Well, what criteria would one use to evaluate a game?” and aside from the final score/margin of victory, I thought, “well, how long a team held that victory is pretty important” since in a lot of games it is pretty much over at halftime, and I wanted a way to incorporate that dominance in. I also figured that teams that went to overtime were basically even (at least in that game), etc., and that the final multiplire of (wins/losses) of their score would sort that out (but it doesn’t completely).
by The JuggerNitt on
Nov 26, 2008 1:28 PM EST
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and I feel obigated to run this once again...
You must be killing the bell curve at MSU, my good man… and now I give you: The JNitt

I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member
by TheMightyErik on
Nov 28, 2008 8:06 PM EST
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And not to be forgotten...
I give you Bleed Blue ’n White
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You guys are waaaaay out of my league. Keep up the good work guys!
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member
by TheMightyErik on
Nov 28, 2008 8:40 PM EST
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Damn.
That’s all I can say to something like that:
DAMN
You must be a genius. Any severed heads in your freezer?
by Ab4PSU on
Nov 26, 2008 1:37 PM EST
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lol, well just wait until BB'nW shreds it all apart
as for the frozen heads, there’s only the one, but it was there when I moved in. I asked the maintenance people to clean it out for me, but until then I’ll have to just store my ice cream around it.
by The JuggerNitt on
Nov 26, 2008 1:40 PM EST
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There are easier ways
I’m not sure this needs to be so complicated. The rankings can take into account margin of victory, but us a compression feature that basically caps the margin at a certain number. That way anything over, say 20 points, looks like a 20 point win. While it might still cause teams to score late when up by a score or two, it wouldn’t encourage them to keep on the gas when up by 30.
The problem with not including any margin of victory, is that all they really have is record and strength of schedule. So if you’re in a ‘weak’ conference, you stand no chance.
by StuckInCBus on
Nov 26, 2008 3:07 PM EST
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well I was thinking about that as well
but wanted a way to account for garbage time TDs as well. Like if I was watching a game where Team A was winning 21-3 the entire game, and puts in their backups in the 4th quarter, which Team B is able to put up a meaningless TD or 2 against at the end of the game, I’d think that Team A was clearly the winner, while if I looked at the final score it would look 21-17 it would appear much closer.
As I said, my whole way of “scoring” was to basically downweight late game “run up the scores” and “garbage scores”. I’m sure there’s better ways to do it, but this way was what I tried.
by The JuggerNitt on
Nov 26, 2008 3:24 PM EST
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That way anything over, say 20 points, looks like a 20 point win.
I could write a small dissertation on this, but I’ll try to keep it simple. What you’re saying is: “only take into account small margins of victory”. The problem with this is those are the only ones that you unambiguously can tell that they mean something! A 14-point victory in a 21-7 game – is that the same, better, or worse as a 14-point victory in a 55-41 game? A 7 point victory in a 10-3 game: same, better, or worse than 45-38?
Is it better to gain a 7-point lead and hold it the entire game, or gain it at the end? If you’re down 14 points and you score 7 in the last 2 minutes, but fail to get the onside kick, should you discount the 7 points and consider it a 14-point victory? What if they get the onside kick, drive down the field, and barely miss the tying touchdown?
So really, you can only take into account large margins of victory. But that’s exactly what you want to discourage teams from doing – running up the score. Someone might say “well, but that’s part of the game” – but this isn’t baseball, where scoring runs is almost never a bad thing. In football, scoring points can be the wrong thing (Brian Westbrook falling down at the 1 en route to score a touchdown is a perfect example).
You might say “look, how often do those things happen?” But remember, you’re ranking teams by 12 total games. If one of them is screwed up due to the bias of the method, that’s terrible. Those games are also more likely to happen against close teams – which are the ones you really care about.
There are what, almost 1000 games in college football Division IA each year. You are guaranteed to get games that don’t conform to your model of the way that football works.
The problem with not including any margin of victory, is that all they really have is record and strength of schedule. So if you’re in a ‘weak’ conference, you stand no chance.
Sure you do. You have 2/3 of the BCS ranking. I believe we call them “the Coaches and Harris Polls.” That’s their job. If they suck, fix them. Don’t ask the statistical rankings to do something they fundamentally cannot do.
I really should write up something about this and submit it to something like JQAS. Very few people realize that it is fundamentally impossible for the statistical rankings to do what people want them to do. Without margin of victory, they look a little goofy. So what? They’re supposed to look different than the Harris and Coaches’ Polls! Otherwise why have them?
by Bleed Blue 'n White on
Nov 26, 2008 3:43 PM EST
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I also figured this could credit teams more for "dominating" a game from start to finish, (a consistent 14 point lead throughout the entire game to me is more impressive than scoring at the very end of the game to win it).
Why is it more impressive? A consistent 14-point lead means that a team scored 14 points early, and then tied the rest of the game. A 14-point lead at the end means that a team tied for most of the game, and scored 14 point at the end.
A consistent performance is one that grows over the game, not one that stagnates.
It’s might be more impressive to you, but you haven’t proven that it’s predictive at all. You certainly haven’t proven that it’s bias-free, which is of course impossible – the only bias-free measure of a game is “win or lose.”
(One such thing is that in effect a last second win or loss gives a score of ~0, which I guess makes some sense since the teams showed themselves to be about even)
And there’s the fundamental problem with using margin of victory. In the limit of a close game, a win means absolutely nothing. Which means that rankings using margin of victory are predictive, not descriptive. And no one wants that for determining a ranking. People might think they do, but they don’t.
After all, you don’t want to tell a team “yeah, you beat this team… but you didn’t do it the right way, so you don’t get the national championship.”
But considering how little time effort I did put into this, and considering how much it looks as good as, or better than, many of the other computer polls out there (at least to me), I don’t think it is completely worthless.
It’s not worthless. It’s just not what you want for ranking teams for a championship.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on
Nov 26, 2008 3:30 PM EST
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you raise good points (and why I figured you'd weigh in on this sooner or later)
and I’d love to read your dissertation on the subject someday :-D
As for a consistent performance being one that grows over a game, this method technically would give a better score for that than one that is stagnant over the whole game. I was just trying to compare a consistent 14 point margin of victory over one that got inflated in the final minutes or so.
One thing I’m not really understanding is why margin of victory is “predictive” and not “descriptive”? To me it seems that it is describing how much team A beat team B by. I suppose I could see it in that if Team A beats Team B by 7 points, and Team C beats Team B by 14 points, then this would “predict” that Team C would be better than Team A. I was just meaning for it to be descriptive in the “Team C beat Team B more impressively than Team A”, and therefore is more deserving (but over the whole range of games).
I was originally trying to use this as a way of figuring out what teams “deserve” a trip to a championship more, but without having to actually watch every single game (which is again, impossible). For me if I were to use something like this it would probably be in aiding a ranking system, since in my system, the most deserving teams are the ones with the most wins over the best teams, and in the most impressive way, and the fewest losses to the less impressive teams, and hopefully not getting blown out, and I needed some way to not only rank each team, but to rank each opponent they played against, and have it all adjust itself based on that.
I know ELO-CHESS is a decent (though flawed itself) way of ranking, especially by removing any bias of margin of victory (especially in Chess where there is no realy way of measuring how good a win is), but in football there are ways to describe how good or dominating a game is, and this was just my attempt at doing it, since I don’t even agree that pure margin of victory is a good measure for some of the reasons I stated. (Ideally I’d like to have a more elaborate model to score a game for this purpose, which would effectively be a “machine” watching the game for me that could say "this game was impressive because this team beat this really good team in such a fashion, such as consistent domination, scoring a lot of points, holding the opponent to so few points, etc etc etc).
by The JuggerNitt on
Nov 26, 2008 4:10 PM EST
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One thing I’m not really understanding is why margin of victory is "predictive" and not "descriptive"? To me it seems that it is describing how much team A beat team B by.
Imagine a team that wins all games on their schedule – but wins them all in quintuple-overtime by missed goals by the other team. Yes, this is a semi-strawman, but it’s intended to take things to an extreme to show what I mean.
Now imagine a team that plays exactly the same, but loses all of those games by the other team making the field goal.
A margin-of-victory based ranking would place those two teams exactly the same (or very nearly exactly the same). It’s predictive: you can’t expect the other team to miss an field goal every game, and in the next game, you would pretty much expect these two teams to perform exactly the same, with equal chances to win.
However: the first team is 12-0. The second team is 0-12. If you had a playoff, the first team would be champion, and the second team would not. The rankings are intended to measure the performance of the team over the season, not possible performance in the future.
but in football there are ways to describe how good or dominating a game is,
No, there isn’t. Football is not baseball: there is no unbiased measure of how close the game was other than a full description of the game itself.
Let me explain: start off by stating your assumptions in your model of ranking a football team. Most people don’t do this, and it should be your first step in creating a ranking. Note that when you say “more impressive” you’re really meaning “more likely to repeat in a future performance” – i.e. more likely to win in a future game. If it’s more likely to win in a future game, it should be more likely to win in this game, too. Therefore:
#1: Early scoring increases your chances of winning more than scoring
#2: Scoring increases your chances of winning
Both of those statements are not universally true. The first is very likely demonstrably false: scoring late almost certainly increases your chance of winning more than scoring early. But scoring late is likely unrepeatable ("lucky") – however, this means that scoring early is, too – because scoring early is just “not scoring late.”
The second is more subtle, and less frequent. But it is true – scoring does not always increase your chances of winning. In some cases (rare, but less rare than in a game like, say, baseball) scoring decreases your chances of winning.
The reason I bring up baseball is that baseball does have an unbiased measure of degree of victory. Runs scored are independent of runs against (with the slight exception of pinch hitting) and the game is fixed-length. So margin-of-victory can be used perfectly well in baseball.
One thing that complicates it in baseball is another problem that football has even worse: in baseball you know all the personnel changes. You’ll know that the reason they gave up 6 runs in the 9th to nearly blow a 10-3 lead is because they brought in a bad pitcher from the bullpen.
You don’t know that the reason they gave up a touchdown in the 4th quarter is because they brought in 3rd stringers. You also don’t know that the reason they suddenly struggled scoring in the 4th quarter is because their star running back got injured.
which would effectively be a "machine" watching the game for me that could say "this game was impressive because this team beat this really good team in such a fashion, such as consistent domination, scoring a lot of points, holding the opponent to so few points
Honestly, I can’t believe you wrote that and didn’t realize the problem. The problem is that you’re assuming things about football. You’re essentially creating a model for the way you think the game should work.
A good team will always hold a worse opponent to few points. A good team will always score lots of points on a worse opponent. Etc., etc., etc.
You can’t judge teams based on a model for the way football works. You have to judge them only by the way that football actually does work: the team with the most points at the end of the game wins.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on
Nov 26, 2008 4:35 PM EST
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well
I did realize the problem, that’s why I “ideally” wished that was the case. I know that right now there is no good model to describe a game, but (and I may be wrong on this) I feel there is a way that a model could be used to describe a game adequately (though maybe not perfectly), and that model would more than likely need to take into account that “the team with the most points at the end of the game wins”.
I’m not defending my model because I think it works, or is best, but that I think that some model could work.
Like you say, the way football works is that the team with the most points at the end of the game wins. You can start with that. But you can go further and say “the team with the most points at the end of the game wins, and they won more impressively if they won by a larger margin”, and then add onto that “but only if that margin wasn’t inflated towards the end of the game” and “scores against backup squads are less impressive” and “a large, and consistently growing lead through out the game is even more impressive” etc.
Imagine if you didn’t watch any football games, but you had a buddy that did. You go to work on Monday and flip through the paper and see the scores. You see “Team A beats Team B” and “Team C beat Team B the previous week” and you think “ok, Team A is as good as Team C”. Or you even see that A beats B by 10 points, and C beat B by 7 points, and think “A is better than C”.
But then your buddy comes in and tells you all about both games. The first game was a back and forth game and both teams looked pretty even, but team A takes the win at the end. The second game team C completely dominated B the entire game. Had a lead of 4 TDs at one point before they put in their second unit (lead is decreased to 21 points), and then the third string defense comes in. With 1 minute left team B scores to drop the lead to 2 TDs, gets an onsides kick and gets another TD as time expires.
So yeah, based on final score team A would look slightly more impressive, but based on a description of the game and the factors in the game (as told by your buddy) you can make a reasonable case that Team C is actually the better team. With an advanced enough model (let’s assume it is built to describe the way the game does work, and not just my assumptions on how it should work, and assume that it s possible to do this) I don’t see why it couldn’t make the same observations that the hypothetical “buddy” did.
And yes, I know there would be severe limitations (such as how does the model know how good a replacement player is, etc) especialy with the limitations on data as they are now just for evaluating and comparing the starters.
by The JuggerNitt on
Nov 26, 2008 6:09 PM EST
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but that I think that some model could work.
Why? Football is intended to be a random game. The shape of the ball itself was kept because the players liked the fact that it bounced unpredictably. You can’t model, completely, how strong a victory was because there’s going to be a large fraction of the game (in many games – the entire portion which decides the game!) that’s completely random!
Thinking about it from a theoretical point of view, the game itself is not a perfect predictor of future wins. In fact, it’s a pretty poor predictor – we’re not guaranteed to beat Oregon State in a rematch (although we’d like to be…). If the game itself isn’t a perfect predictor, how can any model which is based solely on a reduction of that data be as good?
And yes, I know there would be severe limitations
Unbeatable limitations. How can you model how much a team was affected by the loss of a starter? Do you really want a computer model evaluating a player who hasn’t played yet, and having that affect whether or not a team gets into a National Championship game?
That’s the key. If your model’s goal is to predict wins/losses, and it’s just used for personal purposes, it’s fine.
But if your model’s being used to decide who plays for the National Championship? You can’t have those kind of things in it. At all. Because football is a game. The goal of any game is to win. If you have a margin-of-victory based ranking, then the goal of college football is no longer to win. It’s “to win in a way such that the output function of the margin-of-victory based calculator is highest.”
by Bleed Blue 'n White on
Nov 26, 2008 6:30 PM EST
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I guess the difference in what I'm thinking
is that I’m not trying to use this to predict wins or losses, but to evaluate the season as it happened, saying that (in the example I just gave) Team C performed better than Team A, and both were superior to Team B. I’m not saying necessarily that Team C is superior to Team A, just that (in this very small example) they performed better. And then, over the course of 12 games for each of the 120 teams there would be a somewhat objective ranking of their performance over the season (again, not their power ranking, or anything like that).
So to rephrase: what I was trying to come up with was a descriptive model of a season (based on descriptive models of a game), not a predictive model for future performance based on a model of previous games, and I was trying to do this to determine who had the best, most deserving season, and not necessarily who the best teams were.
by The JuggerNitt on
Nov 26, 2008 6:53 PM EST
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So to rephrase: what I was trying to come up with was a descriptive model of a season (based on descriptive models of a game)
Then the problem is even simpler.
How can you evaluate “how good” a win is, descriptively, in an unbiased fashion? Suppose you want to use scoring margin. Why is winning by 30 better than winning by 3? They both give the same result: you win.
Why is scoring early and holding the lead better than scoring late in a tie game? The result is the same: you win.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on
Nov 26, 2008 7:25 PM EST
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Pittsburgh
Hey now, Pitt has excellent computer science and mathematics programs. A researcher there, Thomas Hales, in 1998 made history by verifying the Kepler conjecture. Also, they have a world-leading quantum computation laboratory.
by gumbercules on
Nov 28, 2008 11:43 AM EST
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Meanwhile, back at the Pitt quantum computation computer lab...

Sorry… just couldn’t resist…
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member
by TheMightyErik on
Nov 28, 2008 8:16 PM EST
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And when one cheap shot at Pitt just isn't enough...

My apologies, but that had to be done
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member
by TheMightyErik on
Nov 28, 2008 8:32 PM EST
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LGT
From the Collegian (pardon me in you already addressed this; I read the majority of the week’s BSD on Saturday).
“The Land Grant Trophy was broken by its handlers in the tunnel leading out to the field. The trophy fell off the push cart and the top portion broke off.”
by MainLion on Nov 26, 2008 2:05 PM EST 0 recs
I feel everyone can agree
that this effectively and completely destroyed the LGT, and a new trophy will need to be designed and made.
I still like the idea of a Lincoln Statue, top hat, and/or beard.
by The JuggerNitt on
Nov 26, 2008 2:08 PM EST
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or even a Nickel
has Lincoln on it, and also shows the relative worth of our rivalry.
by The JuggerNitt on
Nov 26, 2008 2:09 PM EST
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and I'm retarded
because I was thinking $5, but converted to coin, even though he’s on the penny…which even more clearly shows the worth of our rivalry
by The JuggerNitt on
Nov 26, 2008 2:10 PM EST
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Wow...
This delve into the inner workings of JuggerNitt’s mind have been brought to you by Verizon.
Verizon FiOS – for when you need to show the world the crazy that lives within your head at a rate faster than DSL. Now with new “Stream of Consciousness” speed, for those who don’t have the time to type out their crazy. Verizon FiOS – crazy is just a few Lincolns away. Or Jeffersons. Whoever…
by IcersGuy on
Nov 26, 2008 2:28 PM EST
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lmao... poor JNitt... the world needs guys like him...
and guys like us to take shots at him… :)
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member
by TheMightyErik on
Nov 28, 2008 8:17 PM EST
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Could go with something Ag-ish
Like a golden milking stool. Or a silver hoe. The bronze pitchfork? The bejeweled tractor?
John Madden told me 90% of the game was half-mental...
by TheK-GunNeedsReloaded on
Nov 26, 2008 7:04 PM EST
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