Why ND will NEVER join the Big Ten...
by stonewall435 on Dec 15, 2008 5:55 PM EST
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Print...and it has nothing to do with NBC.
The Big Ten is not strictly an athletic conference, but also an academic consortium which share research funding, much like bowl game revenue gets shared.
Several Big Ten schools are leaders in stem-cell research.
No catholic organization is going to allow any research revenues be shared for the purpose of stem-cell research.
That being said, I need 13 more words to make this post official.
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You mean...
there is more to universities than the football program?
Nonesense!! Quit using BSD to spread your lies and academia propoganda.
Back to football!
Black Shoe Diaries wiki?
Fanposts like these cause me to believe there is some value in a BSD wiki to keep common stuff from reappearing every few months and reigniting the same tired debates. I swear I’ve seen this post, in comments or wherever, at least three times since 2006. Other (more valuable) stuff gets buried in the archives as well, like the tailgating guides/mashups or BBnW’s still-relevant statistical analysis fanposts that would be nice to have handy. I doubt many new enrollees troll through the archives to see what others posted in the past, so it’d be nice to be able to point new BSDers to an orientation guide when stuff like this comes up.
by gumbercules on Dec 15, 2008 7:03 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I's is relevants?
I feel so loved.
This post is half-right, anyway. Notre Dame will never join the Big Ten, and it is because it’s a Catholic institution, but it has nothing to do with stem cell research. It has everything to do with the fact that the Big Ten is a conference for major public institutions (Northwestern is grandfathered in), and they all have similar problems and cater to similar students.
If Notre Dame were to win a national championship as part of the Big Ten (hah), it wouldn’t help Penn State much at all. Kids who would consider Notre Dame wouldn’t go to Penn State. It’s more expensive, it’s more restrictive, and it’s religious. If Ohio State were to win a national championship (also hah), it helps Penn State because kids who would consider Ohio State would consider Penn State.
It’s all about publicity. The Big East would be a better fit for Notre Dame. Strangely, Pitt would be a better fit to join the Big Ten – they don’t really belong in the Big East.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Dec 17, 2008 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
Are you kidding me?
First of all, the Committee on Institutional Cooperation (academic Big Ten) isn’t the exact same thing as the Big Ten conference; University of Chicago, for example, is in the CIC, but obviously not in the real big ten.
So, if it was a huge deal, ND could just not participate in the CIC. But there’s a lot of middle ground here. ND could participate in everything with the CIC except stem cell research. If ND cared that much about being “clean” of stem cell research, then they wouldn’t play Michigan and Stanford and Penn State and share revenue with them. What if some of the ticket sales from the ND/Mich game in ann arbor went to stem cell research?
ND is a Catholic school, and a devout one at that, but they’re playing in a bowl game on Christmas Eve, for goodness sake. The fact that other schools do academic research in fields they disagree with policy isn’t going to dissuade them, really, from joining the big ten.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
It's been stated by ND as a major reason for not joining the Big Ten...
…that’s why they’re in the Big East for every other sport.
And yes, it’s me making those posts, which is why I put it in the fanposts section.
It’s not just Stem cells, but a handful of other practices. And for what it’s worth, the University of Chicago was a founding member of the Big Ten.
Yeah
But money talks. And when/if the NBC money runs out they’ll come calling. I’m sure an arrangement could be worked out.
by psuphiman80 on Dec 16, 2008 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
$
Money is the only reason ND does anything.
Don’t get it confused.
worst reason ever
well, not as bad as when I heard that the Irish dont want to be in the same conference as a notorious Italian coach…
Lets see some intelligent sources on this subject “its been stated”
It's a pretty obvious point
A tiny catholic school is going to have different needs than 10 enourmous state run schools. When you join a conference you lose a certain amount of instituitional control. The Big Ten made sense for PSU because the school it aligned with were similar and therefore likely to have similar interests.
With the excaption of football, It makes much more sense for Notre Dame to be affiliated with schools like Seton Hall, DePaul, Georgetown & Villanova.
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
This is a different point
than saying that ND won’t join the big ten because of stem cell research, which is patently absurd.
ND does have different needs than most Big Ten schools, but they also have a lot in common, in terms of geography, history, academics, and football. Not to mention fencing.
I have a lot of history with ND, and I’ve always got the sense from alums that a) they don’t want to join any conference ever, but b) if they have to do it, it’s going to be the big ten.
They might indeed choose the Big East one day (for football), I don’t know. But I do know that the reason they ultimately will join one conference instead of another won’t have anything to do with bioethics.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I don't think it's absurd at all
1] The issue of stem cell research goes beyond mere “bioethics” and into the when does life begin debate. I’m not having that debate, just saying that it’s a part of it.
2] The catholic church has pretty clear rules about this sort of thing, pretty much no, or else.
3] Joining an organization that allows, even encourages, it’s member institutions to participate in that sort of research would give them, at a minimum, pause.
I don’t think it’s the only issue, or even a big one. But I do think it illustrates what I am saying about different schools need different confrences.
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
A few points
First of all, I didn’t mean to imply that bioethics is inconsequential; in fact, I think it’s quite serious. And as a matter of definition, bioethics deals with ethically controversial aspects having to do with biological technology. Discussing the ethical implications of stem cell research is just that.
But the real reason I don’t think that the big ten’s stem cell research will affect ND’s decision to join the big ten is because I believe that Notre Dame’s approach to education and research is more nuanced than simply wanting not to touch anything having to do with stem cells.
Many people are surprised to learn that the pope believes in evolution and that ND itself conducts research on the human genome.
If Notre Dame really wants to play a role in shaping policy with stem cell research, which I would expect a major Catholic university to, joining the CIC might actually provide them with a better platform from which to do so.
Notre Dame as a university is very much about learning how to reconcile Catholic faithfulness with intellectual honesty, curiosity, and seriousness. That approach to education demands an open approach to the world of ideas and science, not one that turns and runs at the mere mention of stem cell research.
My dad and three older siblings all graduated from Notre Dame, and one of my brothers spent three years training to be a priest there, so I feel fairly comfortable talking about their approach to this. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I feel sorry for ya
My dad and three older siblings all graduated from Notre Dame, and one of my brothers spent three years training to be a priest there, so I feel fairly comfortable talking about their approach to this. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
Sure, we all know ND fans, but usually they’re not quite as close and prevalent as that. Mine are all restricted to cousins/uncles/“friends”
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 17, 2008 8:14 AM EST up reply actions
The past few years...
have been great. There’s something very satisfying about watching ND die slowly while charlie weis (pear bryant) collects his money.
If you grow up in western Pennsylvania and purposefully chose to attend PSU instead of ND, as I did, you’re prone to put too much emphasis on football seasons to justify your choice of college, even if it is six years after graduation.
If we ever play ND again, maybe I’ll write a post exposing why any reasonable 18 year old would absolutely choose the Nits over the Irish.
Although, to be fair, the rest of my family is much more gracious about PSU than I am about ND. They route for us, but I tend to roote against ND, although I think that’s mostly due to pear bryant.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
That was a really thoughtful post
thanks for writing it. I agree with you.
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
With the excaption of football, It makes much more sense for Notre Dame to be affiliated with schools like Seton Hall, DePaul, Georgetown & Villanova.
Hell, they might actually be able to beat some of those teams on the field…
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member
by TheMightyErik on Dec 16, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
And what is the Big East's position on all of this
Do Big East schools do stem cell research? Just wondering since there is that basketball connection. And what does ND have in common w/ the big State schools of the Big East (RU, Pitt, WVU, UConn…..). Just sayin’ – sounds like a lot of hypocracy coming from ND. Whodathunk?
The Big East basicly has
two seperate groups.
The small urban catholic schools (Villanova, St. Johns, Georgetown)…
The large urban public schools (USF, Pitt, Louisville, Cincy, Syracuse)
Rutgers, WVU and UConn are kind of the outliers in the whole mess. Rutgers & WVU, because they rolled with Penn State in the all sports league nonsense, and UConn because they didn’t play football until recently. With the exception of those three schools (off the top of my head) there are not any “flagship” state schools in the Big East.
The other difference in is the CIC, which links the academic programs as opposed to the athletic programs of the Universities. Membership in this is mandatory, and I think that would be the difference, to the extent it’s relevant.
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
ND
…has not joined because ZUG has not allowed it!
Sorry, I couldn’t resist.
"Red, it took me sixteen years to get here. You play me, and I'll give ya the best I got."
At the end of the day.
Notre Dame is a small school in a podunk part of Indiana. The Big Ten would be better served elsewhere.
I for one don’t mind the eleven school conference system. It’s just fine.
Podunk
Are there non-podunk parts of Indiana?
Blogging about D.C. Baseball since April '04. Penn State alum. Also partial to the Washington Capitals, New York Yankees and Yale football.
Gary
definitely not podunk, but also definitely not a place you want to be. I feel unsafe just driving through on 90.
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 17, 2008 8:16 AM EST up reply actions
1. It’s all about the money and the ability to control it. With NBC average ratings up from 1.8 for seven games last year to 2.2 for six games this year (a 22% increase!) and the contract extension earlier this year, Notre Dame currently has nothing to gain by joining a conference for football. Remember Joe Paterno:
We got to see Notre Dame go from an academic institute to a banking institute.
2. The Big Ten is strictly an athletic conference. Saying otherwise is not true.
3. Notre Dame would be as good or as bad a fit for the Big Ten as Northwestern is, as they are both small schools in the midwest much closer to most Big Ten schools than most Big East schools. (I assume that their football program helps fun their travelling expenses for non-revenue sports.)
4. While I hate the unbalanced football schedule (other conferences play either a round-robin schedule or a divisional format), the Big Ten is unconcerned or else they would have picked up another school by now.
I agree with points 1 and 3
but disagree with 2 and 4. The big ten is more than an athletic conference. The academic big ten is real, and has helped Penn State boost its academic reputation.
As for Point 4, the Big Ten has asked Notre Dame on several occasions to join the league; ND always turns them down. I think that the big ten is happy enough with things the way they are, but they clearly want ND to join; otherwise they’d stop asking. I don’t think the big ten would take just anyone, though, to fill out the conference. Maybe Pitt, but not Marquette or Southern Illinois or many other schools.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
My take
On Point 1: I wouldn’t say ND has nothing to gain by joining a conference. They would benefit greatly from the revenue sharing. Their money making sports (football and basketball) do well, but everything else suffers. When Notre Dame goes to the Fiesta Bowl they live high on the hog, but their athletic budget takes a serious hit when they don’t go to the bowl game.
If I were Delany I would let them keep their NBC contract. Every penny of it. Just don’t give them any revenue from the Big Ten Network.
On Point 2: I don’t agree. Admission standards and graduation rates blow schools from the SEC, ACC and Big XII out of the water. And there are academic advantages to being a part of the Big Ten. Big Ten schools have access and share information from their vast libraries.
On Point 3: Geographically ND would be a perfect fit for the Big Ten. Agreed.
On Point 4: Agreed again. But just for now. The Big Ten is routinely putting two teams per year in the BCS. That’s nearly $20 million the conference brings in. As long as we have the Rose Bowl in our back pocket willing to take a 9-3 Illinois team over other more deserving teams that will always be the case. If we ever get to the point of the PAC-10 or the ACC where only the conference champion is getting into the BCS, Delany will try to supplement that revenue loss somewhere else. Like maybe a conference championship game which would require adding a 12th member.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
You know
I had never really thought about letting ND join yet keep their NBC contract. If the Rose Bowl could have a separate TV contact yet still be a BCS bowl, why can’t ND? The negatives would be that the other schools would want a piece of that pie and wouldn’t let it happen unless there was something in it for them. Also ND would loose its easy path to BCS bowls.
by whiteoutonly on Dec 16, 2008 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
NBC & the Big Ten
I think that NBC may actually drive Notre Dame to the Big Ten. They would actually wind up with more access to Notre Dame football (road games), and get PSU, Ohio State & Michigan basicly as throw ins. They are starving for more footbal on NBC, and two Big Ten games every Saturday might really hit the spot for them.
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
NBC Driving ND to the Big Ten
I kind of agree. Notre Dame is turning into Army. A once great program that can’t compete with the BCS conferences anymore. NBC is getting big ratings from the older Notre Dame generation. But younger kids aren’t drawn to the Irish like they were in the 1980’s and early 90’s. As time goes on I think they will lose their national following. Then one day NBC will decided their hundreds of millions of dollars would be better served going after NASCAR and Notre Dame will be kicked to the curb. And I can’t see any other network willing to foot their enormous bill.
Then they will have two options. Join a conference, or try to go it alone and create their own network or something.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
True...
Too bad Notre Dame didn’t join in the 19th century.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Dec 17, 2008 1:14 AM EST up reply actions
As long as we have the Rose Bowl in our back pocket willing to take a 9-3 Illinois team over other more deserving teams that will always be the case.
Eh, it cuts both ways, actually. If we were any other conference, we wouldn’t have had to worry about the Oregon State-Penn State rematch, as all other bowls can adjust matchups, but you can’t remove the PAC-10/Big Ten champ from the Rose.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Dec 17, 2008 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
Point 2
Strictly speaking, he’s correct. The Committee on Institutional Cooperation (CIC) is the academic consortium comprising the Big Ten schools plus former Big Ten school the University of Chicago.
I was thinking in terms of the original fanpost; in that context it is worthwile to state that the CIC is managed separately from the Big Ten. Jim Delany does not have any say over its operations. He can’t force any member university to adopt any academic policies, but he can make athletic policy. (For example, the Big Ten conference instiuted a mandatory 60/40 male/female ratio of participation in athletics.)
I agree with Mike about the Big Ten containing all academic-minded schools. If one assumes that membership in the Association of American Universities is a good measure of academic research, then one has to admit that every Big Ten university is a member. (Note: Interestingly enough, the old Big Eight schools save KSU are all members, as are Texas and Texas A&M.)
While letting Notre Dame keep the NBC contract might help negotiations, I wonder how much their deal with the Big East in regards to the Gator Bowl and Sun Bowl slots is worth to those parties.
They would only join the Big East for football
Because it’s the closest thing to getting to choose an easy schedule as being independent
I support Takimoto in his effort to support Roger Kieschnick in his quest to becoming the best Kieschnick ever to play professional baseball.
Our re-programming of The VD Special is nearly complete
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member
by TheMightyErik on Dec 18, 2008 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
The USC home page states that it is one of the world’s leading private research universities. No doubt they do stem cell there. ND plays them every year. Why? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. They will never join the Big Ten until the $$$$$$$$ is right .
It’s all about the bottom line with them. Ask any other Catholic university, especially the non-Jesuit schools (a little inside baseball for us Catholic types); ND always acts like the 800 pound gorilla in the room. They can Charlie Weiss and his ridiculous contract.
Reg4
ND always acts like the 800 pound gorilla in the room.
um…probably because their head coach is an 800 pound gorilla
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 17, 2008 8:18 AM EST up reply actions
Well that...
and Notre Dame played USC for 50 years before stem cells were even discovered, let alone researched.
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
And the fascination with Notre Dame continues…
I’m amazed how the discussion on this blog inevitably turns to Notre Dame Football. It’s often pointed out that Notre Dame Football has become irrelevant; and yet you would hardly know that by the continual discussions of such on this site. We’ve only played each other twice in the last 16 years and yet you treat us as your biggest rival.
Regardless – simply stated, the University of Notre Dame will do what it feels best for the University and the future success of it’s football program. If that means joining the Big Televen, then they will do so. Until that day, however, they will remain an independent that is free to schedule teams from across the country. Would you criticize the Penn State administration or Joe Paterno for doing what they feel is best for the Lions? Do you honestly think Paterno would have joined the Big Ten if Penn State could have remained independent and replicated the arrangement that Notre Dame Football has currently?
Get over yourself
We talk about all college sports here. Flip through the pages and you’ll find rants on the SEC, Big XII, Pitt and the Big East. To suggest all we do is obsess over Notre Dame just perfectly illustrates the self centered egotistical arrogance everyone has come to expect from the Irish and their fans.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
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