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How Good Is The Best Defense Of All Time, Really? [And Penn State's Too]

It is very much unlike ESPN to exaggerate or talk in absolutes, so I was especially taken back when they starting discussing the 2008 USC team as possibly one of the best defensive teams of all time.

Eyetvsnapshot_3__medium

And so I was obviously compelled to pull the numbers.  As always, we stress context, context, context.  Here are USC's opponents, their scoring and total offense rank nationally (out of 119 teams) and how each performed against TBDOAT:

Team Scoring Offense Total Offense vs USC
Arizona 16 33 10
Arizona St 84 100 0
Cal 28 49 3
Oregon 7 8 10
Oregon St 25 26 27
Stanford 55 68 23
UCLA 109 112 7
Washington 118 117 0
Washington St 119 119 0
Virginia 115 104 7
Ohio State 43 78 3
Notre Dame 67 65 3

And Penn State, who is no slouch on defense either:

Team Scoring Offense Total Offense vs PSU
Illinois 42 19 24
Indiana 96 72 7
Iowa 34 52 24
Michigan 98 109 17
Michigan St 56 67 18
Ohio State 43 78 6
Purdue 67 51 6
Wisconsin 48 36 7
Oregon State 25 26 14
Syracuse 100 115 13
Temple 82 106 3

[Remember that Penn State didn't play Minnesota (82/91) or Northwestern (74/62).  Also, I was forced to exclude Coastal Carolina as they really can't be compared to D1a programs and don't have a D1a rank.]

And a summary:

Team Scoring Avg (Oppt) Total Avg (Oppt) Defensive Avg (Score/Total)
Top 25 Faced (total) Bottom 25 Faced (total)
USC 65.5 73.3 7.8 / 206 1 5
PSU 63.6 66.5 12.4 / 264 1 3

 

Bullets?  Sure.

  • Of the 20 worst total offenses in D1a, these two teams played 8 of them.  That's going to skew things a little bit.
  • USC has three shutouts this season, all of them are against teams ranked in the bottom 20.
  • When you look at the average rank of opponents it looks like these teams played a similar slate of talent.  The somewhat subtle difference is that USC played more absolutely terrible teams, but then some decent ones.  PSU's opponents are less extreme.

So who's defense is the best of all time evah?  I hate even asking that questing because it doesn't make any sense and can't be determined anyway, but based on the level of competition each played (offensively, I mean), I think it is safe to say that neither one is completely out of this world.  Both have performed very well, but both have also faced a relatively weak slate; an average around 65 is nothing to print billboards about.  Each has also had a couple of breakdowns.

So who's defense is better?  We had to go here, didn't we?  Well, again, it impossible to say for sure, but there is this to consider:

USC's scoring and total averages are better, and the level of competition is somewhat similar.  However, I quickly went back through the box scores and came up with this non-scientific stat: each team has blown out a lot of their opponents and weren't playing their first team defenses the entire game.  I estimate (and am relatively confident in these numbers) that USC has given up 9 garbage points, Penn State 21.  That brings the average numbers a little closer together.

Again, I don't think there is anything here that you can use to distinguish these teams. 

So what does it all mean?  Well, I think the game hinges on which offense is able to keep themselves together.  As is usually the case when two great defenses face off: turnovers are a very important stat.  It's going to be difficult to overcome a negative turnover margin when you probably aren't going to be given very many chances.

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And yes,

I realize there are some thing that should probably be done differently, math wise. Most of them involve impracticable amounts of time that I unfortunately don’t have today.

by Kevin HD on Dec 31, 2008 11:18 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And Skip Bayless Too

I just got done watching the World Wide Leader in Crap’s First and Ten segment on the Rose Bowl and can’t believe they let people like Skip Bayless talk on air. After reading all the Mark May posts we need to add Skip Bayless to the list of ESPN people that know nothing. I heard things like fire Joe Paterno after USC gets done obliterating Penn State, 33-9 USC and it won’t seem that close, and other comments I’ve already removed from memory.

Bottom line…This is just the tip of the ESPN BCS iceberg. If ABC/ESPN only has the Rose Bowl presented by Citi now, what will the network turn into when they have the entire BCS bowl schedule?? The Rose Bowl is the only game they’re talking up, promoting, abusing and it will only get worse once they have total control of the BCS.

Bottom line 2…Penn State has just as much of a chance to win this game as USC. No debate, no stats, no media bias. Both teams have to play tomorrow and one will win. My only hope is that it’s PSU.

WE ARE…

by PSUROLLS on Dec 31, 2008 11:39 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Glad to see someone finally post this.

Your analysis is right on, but there are two other factors to consider:

-Oregon was down to a third-string QB for their game. They couldn’t get anything started on offense. Some of that was attributable to USC’s defense, but you have to imagine a significant factor was their unfortunate QB situation. They showed last night that they can put away a top quality team.

-Ohio State had no Beanie Wells. It’s a different team with him in there.

by Cairo on Dec 31, 2008 11:41 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also

TP saw much less time against SC, and Boeckman has showed plenty of ineptness in big games.

by Roland86 on Dec 31, 2008 11:44 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's Just Play

Time for analysis is past. The talking heads at ESPN won’t be on the field tomorrow. It’s time to walk the walk.

Nobody can say what will happen, but I do feel confident, if the boys are on their game tomorrow; you’ll have to play the best game of the year to win, and that may still not be enough.

This defense is for real. They are fast, big and mean. You haven’t played anyone this good, this year.

This is college football, I LOVE IT!

Good Luck

by WE ARE SC on Dec 31, 2008 11:59 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Same Goes For You

Looking at your 08 schedule I don’t see a team as good as PSU on it. So to that I say you haven’t played anyone this good, this year.

by PSUROLLS on Dec 31, 2008 12:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Absolutely

I agree State will be our biggest test. On balance we haven’t played anyone better. Should be a great game.

by WE ARE SC on Dec 31, 2008 12:16 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow.

Look at how U$C beat up on such juggernauts as Arizona State, UCLA, Washington, Washington State, and Virginia. My bowels just let loose and I can’t stop shaking. We’re done.

Fuck USC!! The problem now is that there are too many media outlets and these talking heads want to create stories so they can get ratings, advertising money, and exposure. U$C’s defense the best of all time? Suck my …k. U$C is good. This game is no gimme. We could get blown out. However, one thing nobody wants to take into account is that we could blow them out. My prediction:

PENN STATE 28
U$C 10

Neither defense is an all time great. They gave got beat by a team we annihilated. We blew a 9 point fourth quarter lead with a chance to play in the national championship game. All time greats don’t do that. They perform when it counts. To me, greatness should only be applied to champions (except in our case, because of the hosings of ‘68-’69-‘73-’94).

by Ab4PSU on Dec 31, 2008 12:28 PM EST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Lol...

tell them how you really feel.

I have a feeling about this game, almost the same one I had against Michigan State. That was supposed to be a dogfight, remember? People were split all over the place. Then it came to that 3rd and something TD to Zug (I think). It was on from that point.

Honestly, we don’t need trickery and I don’t want to see a screen get blown up every few possessions. We also don’t need our QB running to the WR position. The key is Royster. He hasn’t really been stopped per se all year, we’ve just stopped using him at certain times. Feed him the ball and he’ll turn 3 yds into 6 or 7 for the majority of the game. If we get away from the run, and I see DWill making 3-4 passing attempts in the game like USC won’t see it coming, that is a formula for disaster.

I was out in the trenches, which enables me to paint such a powerful picture, like Apocalypse Now.-Cormega

by OMEGAMAN on Dec 31, 2008 12:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you sir, have my vote for post of the day... lol

I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member

by TheMightyErik on Jan 1, 2009 12:38 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rittenberg says it best
ROSE PRESENTED BY CITI — Penn State 17, USC 14

There’s really no reason to pick against USC in a big game, especially one in Pasadena. But there’s something special about this Penn State team: the way they overcame offseason turmoil, the way they blitzed through most of the season and the way they made improvement in every facet of the game. So after a lot of thought, I decided not to play it safe in the Rose Bowl Game. USC has to lose one of these games, and Penn State has what it takes to beat the Trojans, especially on defense. There won’t be a lot of points, but special teams proves to be the difference for Penn State. Derrick Williams breaks off a big return and specialists Kevin Kelly and Jeremy Boone both step up as the Lions prevail in a defensive struggle.

by amandakt on Dec 31, 2008 1:36 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kevin

great post and analysis… those defensive numbers are very intriguing…

Seems like ever since the this match-up has been set all the "experts" have been talking about is the USC defense… that’s great and we all know they are good but defense is just on phase of the game…

I’d be curious to see the reverse of what you did in this post to show how USC offense scored on the defenses on the Pac-10…

Penn State Offense definitely will have their hands full but all they have to do is score more than USC’s offense… that’s really what it comes down to right?…. I am far less impressed with the QB Sanchez and the USC offense this year than in years past and really like our chances to score more…

While everyone focuses on Penn State’s O facing USC’s D, I think the key match-up, and where this game is won and lost, is USC’s O against the PSU D….

by WETSU on Dec 31, 2008 1:44 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some more numbers

———————— Off-Passing -————- Off-Rushing -——————- Off-Points
Penn State -——- 36.84 -——————— 62.17 -———————————- 15.65
USC -—————- 49.85 -——————— 52.32 -———————————- 11.42

———————— Def-Passing -———— Def-Rushing -———————- Def-Points
Penn State -——- 28.90 -——————— 63.79 -———————————— 12.91
USC -————— 73.19 -——————— 63.19 -———————————— 17.65

What are these numbers you ask. They indicate the difference between how many points or yards the team got on offense and what their opponents averaged giving up for the first set. The second set shows how many fewer points or yards the team gave up compared to what their opponents averaged getting. In other words, Penn State averaged scoring 15.65 more points in a game than our opponents averaged giving up each game. I didn’t remove each team’s game against its opponents. I pulled these off my Deltas spreadsheet available at the following:

As an Excel spreadsheet: http://home.comcast.net/~elihurozen/delta.xls

As a web page: http://home.comcast.net/~elihurozen/Delta.htm

As you can see, USC’s scoring defense is slightly better than ours in this & their passing defense is better, but our scoring offense is better than theirs. Obviously, this doesn’t prove anything, but it certainly gives you a different perspective. (Note my data doesn’t include any bowl games yet.)

Born and raised in the shadow of Mount Nittany

by Elihu on Dec 31, 2008 2:08 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Another great Paterno quote

From espn.com:

Carroll, open in his admiration for Paterno, said, “He’s a remarkable person, you know, to be able to carry this kind of spirit for so long through his career. He might be the living image of Benjamin Button here.”

The reference to the current film about the man who ages in reverse sailed over the graying head of Paterno.

“The living example of whom?” he asked.

After someone explained, Paterno said, “I’ve seen two movies in the last 40 years: E.T. and Titanic. I walked out of Titanic, I felt like I was in the bath.”

--
Mr. Bob Dobalina

by Run Up The Score on Dec 31, 2008 2:26 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well it's settled then: E.T. is the best movie in the last 40 years.

And Titanic is…well, I’m not really sure what he means by “in the bath”.

by Kevin HD on Dec 31, 2008 3:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm

I think this whole post was just an elaborate way to put up a graphic showing Michigan had a worse offense than Temple. Well played.

Seriously, the key to this game is the PSU OL. I expect USC will do a lot of stunting and run blitzing on early downs to try to force Clark into obvious passing situations, where he struggles. If PSU can get 4 or 5 yards consitently on first down, they can sustain a few decent drives. I don’t see USC’s offense putting up more than 20 on their own, and that is being generous.

by Wlvrn99 on Dec 31, 2008 2:54 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol.

That was funny.

Eric Watters Atlanta, Ga.

by ech2os on Dec 31, 2008 4:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agreed... I admire your sense of humor, Wlvrn99!

I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member

by TheMightyErik on Jan 1, 2009 12:42 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So the point is

USC does not have arguably the best defense of all time.

Yeah, Im fine with that.

http://glassesofjoe.blogspot.com/

by psudrozz on Dec 31, 2008 3:04 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agreed

We are not normal...WE are Legends...We are PENN STATE!

by hawaiipennstatefan on Dec 31, 2008 3:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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