Vegas Knows Best: How The Media Can Make You A Better Football Team
The hits just keep on commin': Penn State opened as a ten point dog against USC Sunday night. No respect, I tell ya.
While the BCS match-ups were officially announced this weekend, we've known the Rose Bowl pairing for a while now. Vegas has had a lot of time to figure this one out.
The interesting thing, then, was trying to guess how the experts would handle a very high profile game between two very high profile schools. Unlike the past two years, Pete Carroll is actually being matched up with a Big Ten champion...although you wouldn't know it based on some of the stories we've been linking here at BSD:
"Penn State sucks.*"
[*not an actual quote, but you get the idea]
This puts Vegas in an interesting position. Frankly, you have no reason to believe that USC is substantially better than Penn State. Yes, they've been dominating on defense, but they haven't exactly been facing offensive juggernauts on a weekly basis. Besides, Penn State has been quietly playing some decent defense of their own, and have one of the most productive offenses in the nation (points/game and yards/game are better than any other Big Ten team, top 15 nationally in both categories). Then, to add, you've got the often misguided but interesting transitive property in which we use Oregon State as the middle man.
Several of the gambling blogs I check in on from time to time made guesses last night at all of the bowl game odds. The Money Line Journal and You Guessed It, Frank Stallone came up with -6 and -7, respectively, for the Rose Bowl.
These aren't totally taken out of thin air, of course. Besides being familiar with their trade based on an entire season of looking at lines, there are also third part tools available. Vegas Insiders runs a power ranking specifically designed to predict spreads, and they have the two teams separated by just 3 points (with a home field adjustment, USC would be a 6 point favorite based on their model, click here for a look at why this is probably appropriate). Sagarin does a similar exercise with his PREDICTOR formula; he has Penn State and USC separated by 5.2 points (8.2 with a home field adjustment).
The other BCS bowls:
| Matchup | Sagarin | V.I. | Actual |
| Utah vs. Alabama | Bama -5 | Bama -5.5 | Bama -10 |
| Ohio State vs. Texas | UT -7 | UT -6.5 | UT -10 |
| VT vs. Cincinatti | BC -3 | UC -2 | UC -1 |
| Florida vs. Oklahoma | UF -2.5 | UF -1 | UF -3 |
| Penn State vs. USC | USC -5 | USC -3 | USC -10 |
So not all of the real lines were precisely predicted by these models, but I think you can explain many of the differences away. Alabama is going to be playing in a Sugar Bowl that will probably be 90% Tide fans, that is probably good for at least three points. Besides, non-BCS schools have always been difficult to project in these formulas because their schedule is set-up so different. Texas is considered an elite team hosed by the BCS, and so there is obviously some public perception built into that Fiesta Bowl line that might otherwise not exist. The Orange Bowl and MNC are very close to the predicted value.
So why is it that the public seems to be so off on Penn State? They aren't in the Mountain West, have just one loss and have been blowing out most of the teams on their schedule.
Sports Investments might have found an answer:
So why does a ‘true' line of 6.5 turn into 10? Reasons below:
-USC dominates the rose bowl every year.
[...]
-USC has the greatest defense in the history of college football.
More cliches are listed there, in jest of course, click though for a good review of the premise most LA Times articles will be based on for the next couple of weeks.
Update: So the lines for the rest of the bowl games have been released and, um, brace yourselves (per Covers.com):
Wisconsin vs Florida State (-5)
# 20 Northwestern vs #23 Missouri (-13.5)
Minnesota vs Kansas (-10)
Iowa (-3) vs South Carolina
#18 Michigan State vs #17 Georgia (-7.5)
#10 Ohio State vs #3 Texas (-10)
#6 Penn State vs #4 Southern California (-10)
That's a total spread of Big Ten +53. Spread out over seven bowls it averages to +7.5 per game.
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44 comments
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Comments
They can make the spread 20....
….it doesn’t matter. Honestly I bet this spread is 6 by game time.
We are going to beat those pretty boys in their back yard. Just to make it more fun, we should bring those panzies to the Beav for a rematch two weeks later.
I would love to see a game between PSU and USC or an ESSS EEEEEE SEEEEE school played in late November through January. I don’t think ESSSSS EEEEEE SEEEEE speed works real well in the snow….sort of like a Ferrari works in the snow.
WE ARE.......PENN STATE!
by Nick7 on Dec 9, 2008 8:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ya Man!
I like you thinking!
BRING THE WOOD!
" We need MORE cowbell !"
by BlueWhiteLife on Dec 9, 2008 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly I bet this spread is 6 by game time.
Um… why would vegas pass key numbers 10 and 7?
by FSUncensored on Dec 9, 2008 7:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they wouldn’t. This thing won’t move much, if it all.
http://sportinvestments.blogspot.com
by HolyBuckeye on Dec 10, 2008 7:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The line was at 10.5 when I finished writing this (yesterday)
I had to go in this morning and change it to 10.
At least one online book has it down to 9.5 already.
Kevin @ Black Shoe Diaries
by Kevin HD on Dec 9, 2008 8:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I will say this...
USC has some hot cheerleaders!
As for spreads, I really don’t care. Penn State has a habit of being a bowl underdog and winning. That won’t change Jan.1.
WE ARE…
"Red, it took me sixteen years to get here. You play me, and I'll give ya the best I got."
by Touchdown on Dec 9, 2008 9:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
One more time for the people in the cheap seats:
U$C is above such petty things as cheerleaders. They have song girls because they’re all unique and very special- if you don’t believe it, just ask their mommies.
There is a tractor in the parking lot, West Virginia license EIEIO. Your lights are on.
by leeharvey418 on Dec 9, 2008 9:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's true, people in LA aren't like you and me.
They are better and more fashionable.
Kevin @ Black Shoe Diaries
by Kevin HD on Dec 9, 2008 9:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course they are.
But they don’t look nearly as hip in camo as us Pennsylvania farm folk do.
'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'
by Pete the Streak on Dec 9, 2008 9:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention the cars
While they drive Ferraris and such, we drive this:
JoePa for governor
by ReadingRambler on Dec 9, 2008 9:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“Thank god we’re back in Hollywood. Where people treat each other with dignity and respect.”
Hopefully not too obscure.
by shadowfax on Dec 9, 2008 10:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That helped
That’s Wolfcastle from the Simpsons.
by Screen Name 20 on Dec 9, 2008 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Up and At Them!
There is a tractor in the parking lot, West Virginia license EIEIO. Your lights are on.
by leeharvey418 on Dec 9, 2008 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Flim Springfield
They don’t need a flashy ad… or correct spelling!
There is a tractor in the parking lot, West Virginia license EIEIO. Your lights are on.
by leeharvey418 on Dec 9, 2008 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hot chicas
are termed song girls by the USC faithful….not cheerleaders…..and yes they are hot. They are about the only reason I will turn on a USC game. I agree about the spreads….forget ‘em. PSU is often a dog and I actually prefer us having that role…..I think it certainly helps to fire the players up. Let’s hope that both PSU and the Buckeyes claim victory! It gives us that much more cause to say that we should have been playing in Miami!
BTW….does anyone else think the Sooners are going to lay a terd against the Gators? Something about the Big 12 not playing defense does not sit right with me!
I thought only safeties played 15 yards off the ball?
by pic15 on Dec 10, 2008 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Orange Bowl
You list Boston College, when it’s really VA Tech.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
by 06Lion on Dec 9, 2008 10:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Big difference.
The over/under for the OB is probably about 10. If it were BC, it would be 40, though probably with the same spread.
There is a tractor in the parking lot, West Virginia license EIEIO. Your lights are on.
by leeharvey418 on Dec 9, 2008 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
only two of those even look remotely appealing as sides, and its psu and tosu. Which could be a good thing, but probably not. I guess maybe you could force NW and MSU down my throat.
http://sportinvestments.blogspot.com
by HolyBuckeye on Dec 9, 2008 1:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
MSU might be alright
I mean, they aren’t very good but neither is UGA.
I just can’t wait to see the action on ND…it’s like old times only they still suck.
Kevin @ Black Shoe Diaries
by Kevin HD on Dec 9, 2008 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
its early
and there is no way this continues, but carib (only one I can get to at work) is showing 60/40 hawaii. Either untrue, or those damn Hawaiians get to the lines before us cuz they are about 3 days ahead.
http://sportinvestments.blogspot.com
by HolyBuckeye on Dec 9, 2008 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just saw the sportsbook lines
The Irish are 1.5 point dogs.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Dec 9, 2008 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
X-Mas eve, catholic families back together to watch the divine Fighting Irish bring home victory from the island. This is a semi-educated guess, but I bet the books get absolutely demolished with ND money on the 23rd and gameday. And they’ll gladly take it.
http://sportinvestments.blogspot.com
by HolyBuckeye on Dec 9, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would seriously consider betting on this
if I had the money to bet.
The bias for USC combined with the bias against PSU is turning this into perfect storm. Sure, USC could beat PSU by 30, but PSU could also beat USC by 30. I’d probably put the line more at USC -5 or 6, and that’s with the home field advantage. These teams are a lot more evenly matched than people think.
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 9, 2008 2:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Home field advantage
Do USC fans/alum pack the seats like Penn State fans? I’m not familiar with USC fandom, but from what I’ve read, they seem bored with having to go to another Rose Bowl, so I wonder if they will really be the majority. I keep thinking back to the 2006 Orange Bowl, which was basically a home game for FSU, and the crowd must have been about 75% Penn State. Can we expect something similar to this for the Rose Bowl?
by NJ lion on Dec 9, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
USC will be out in numbers from what I'd imagine
the 2006 Orange Bowl wasn’t really a home game for FSU, despite being in the same state. That would be like saying a game in Heinz field is like a home game for Eagles fans, but even further away.
This game is literally in their back yard for USC. I tried to get free tickets through the Pasadena residents through my cousin and she said it was a mad house and she tried but had no chance of getting any.
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 9, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But a drive across state sure beats a flight across the country.
Unless you’re Zug, who just has to THINK about being somewhere else, and he is there!
by NJ lion on Dec 9, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, it's more like a 14 mile drive across the city
Imagine going from Lake Zug on the edge of Zug, Zug, and climbing to the top of the Zugerberg.
(Or, Beaver Stadium to Port Matilda is 14 miles.)
by Aaron PSU on Dec 10, 2008 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he was referring to FSU driving across state for the Orange Bowl
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 10, 2008 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry for my mistake
Clearly, I will be denied entry into the promised land of Zug.
by Aaron PSU on Dec 10, 2008 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One advantage
Penn State fans have known they were going to the Rose Bowl for several weeks so I imagine they started buying up tickets and making arrangements right after the MSU game. USC had to wait an extra week until Oregon State lost. And even then some of them may have held out hope of going to Miami. So PSU fans got a head start on buying tickets. Given how well we travel that’s a good thing for us. I think we’ll be well represented. The crowd should still tip in favor of USC, but I bet 40% of that stadium is wearing blue.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on Dec 9, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I bet 40% of that stadium is wearing blue.
How about a white-out?
by NJ lion on Dec 9, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
whiteout
I’d be really surprised if the university doesn’t declare a white out. I would think the only thing that might stop them is that it is during the day, when white outs don’t look as good.
Let's Go State
by rmcmillen50 on Dec 9, 2008 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It'll Be Crowded
Average attendance for home games is around 90,000. This isn’t our home field, but THIS IS OUR HOUSE. It’s a 20 min. drive from campus. Take Metro to the game and beat the crowd. The weather should be nice, outside, on grass; the game should be great. Try Lawry’s Prime Rib for dinner the night before make reservations early.
Good Luck.
by WE ARE SC on Dec 11, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So you think you'll beat SC by 30. Don't bet on it. USC hasn't lost by more than 7 points in 7 years. Since Sep 2002 (7 years) the Trojans have lost 9 games, by a total of 36 points. Good Luck.
by WE ARE SC on Dec 10, 2008 10:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn, I shoulda thought of that.
I forgot that past games performed by completely different human beings are such a great indicator of future events. Big Pete is bringin back Leinart and Bush to suit up on new years, right?
Real intelligent comment.
http://sportinvestments.blogspot.com
by HolyBuckeye on Dec 11, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
and to WE ARE SC, no, I don’t think PSU will beat USC by 30, but I think there is about equal probability that will happen as there is USC beating PSU by 30.
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 11, 2008 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone who thinks SC will beat PSU by 30 is delusional. This will be a good game between two teams that are pretty evenly matched. I think 10 points is too much, whom ever is favored I think it will come down to 1 score, 7 points.
Good Luck.
Holybuckeye: Why the hostility? Are you still upset about Sept. game? The comment was intended to say that “Big Pete” is excellent at making adjustments to keep the team close. They usually don’t get beat big. Man you need to chill. After all it is only a game.
by WE ARE SC on Dec 11, 2008 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“Are you still upset about Sept. game?”
Not in the least bit, if we would have won that game we’d probably be in the exact same position that we are in now.
“Why the hostility?”
Just pointing out your retarded logic. My patience has worn thin with pretentious USC fans.
“The comment was intended to say that "Big Pete" is excellent at making adjustments to keep the team close. They usually don’t get beat big.”
I wouldn’t have replied if that is what your comment stated. Good luck, boss.
http://sportinvestments.blogspot.com
by HolyBuckeye on Dec 11, 2008 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Big Ten line is backwards
It’s Big Ten +53, not -53 (it’s “Opponents -53”). It’s listed correctly in the table (“UT -10”, for instance).
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Dec 9, 2008 6:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

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