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Who cares if we don't have a "Rival"

Do we need one?

I know I love to hate OSU.  I just plain despise Michigan.  If neither of those teams thinks we're the devil, who cares? Only in college football could we looked down upon because other teams don't hate us.  I still look forward to OSU and Michigan every year with the hatred of a rival.  Who cares if they don't think of the same way?  I'm going to say that not caring about what their fans and players think of us should go hand in with hating that team.  

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Guh
  1. Find horse, preferably dead.  If alive, shoot horse in head 7 times.
  2. Apply sharp blows with blunt instrument.
  3. Rinse
  4. Repeat
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.

by 06Lion on Apr 8, 2008 7:42 PM EDT   0 recs

You Raise a Good Point
However, I feel like the fact that they don't hate us is because we havn't screwed either one of them over in awhile.  Beating OSU in 2005 didn't sink their season, losing to Texas did.  Michigan hasn't lost to us in eternity, so they have no reason to hate us either.  I feel the root of their indifference toward us comes from them not perceiving us as any more of a threat than Michigan St. or Iowa.  Thats not a good thing.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by fugimaster24 on Apr 8, 2008 10:07 PM EDT   0 recs

I agree with you and fugi too...
Part of hating a rival should be not caring what they think, but fugimaster is right, we aint hated cuz they dont see us as a major threat.

What i'm really missing about not having a rival is the cool name that would go along with said game, ie: The Holy War, Backyard Brawl, the BorderWar, Red River shootout, the list goes on and on.

I think we should think of a good game name and then worry about hating a team to fit that name.

by platnumkid on Apr 9, 2008 1:32 AM EDT   0 recs

Can you create a rivalry?
Yeah, these are a valid points.  Funny how the Penn State / Pitt game never got a name.  [Did it?]  Of course, I don't know what that name could have been.

OK, here are some thoughts.  I was bored this morning, so I decided to write some stuff out.  If you aren't interested, don't read.  It's just my theory on rivalries and rivalry-building...

I think rivalries, to be genuine, have to grow organically over time.  As suggested, among other things, they have to result from teams taking the opportunity to screw each other in important situations.  The competition also has to be highly competitive.  It's hard for a rivalry to be considered genuine when one teams wins the majority of the games.  As Fugi noted, that's why Michigan has no reason to either hate us or consider us a rival.  It's not at all unreasonable to suggest that the PSU/OSU series has been rather competitive, despite the fact that OSU's record of wins against us is growing more and more lopsided.  Unfortunately, they already have Michigan, so the PSU/OSU series will always be a one-sided rivalry.

So, we don't have a rival right now.  Sad (to some people), but true.  If we actually thought it were reasonable to "search for a rival", what would we have to consider?  In addition to potential competitiveness, I think the most essential components of a good rivalry include, in relative order: geographic proximity, degree of program success, fanbase commitment, breadth and depth of football tradition, and type of institution.  With these things in mind, I can think of two institutions with the real potential to work as rivals:  West Virginia and Virginia Tech.  Other options (including Maryland, Rutgers, Syracuse, Boston College, and even Pitt) all fail to meet at least one of these criteria.  Pitt actually fails to meet most of them.

I'll leave it at that.  Of course, as others have noted, including Jesse, we should REALLY be concentrating on beating Ohio State and Michigan.  If we start giving them headaches and actually lay claim to being one of the Big Three in our conference, we won't have to speculate on potential rivals.  We'll have acquired two of them, organically.    

   

by BSM PSU 93 on Apr 9, 2008 9:08 AM EDT   0 recs

Penn State/Pitt
I think it was called "The Beast of the East".
Enter someone who's not Morelli!

by MarkoMancuso on Apr 9, 2008 9:19 AM EDT   0 recs

Beast of the East
There is a pretty detailed book about the rivalry that has that name, but I'm pretty sure it's out of print (fitting in a way). It had a chapter (about three or four pages) on every game through, I believe, the 1985 season.

I also think that is what the winner of the game got to call themselves.

The game pre-dated the application of a name to every rivalry, which has more to do with TV marketing than fericity of the rivalry. I don't believe that it ever had an "offical" name. Not that I think that speaks to the quality of the rivalry one way or the other.

For the Glory National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Apr 9, 2008 11:30 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks
I wasn't sure.
Enter someone who's not Morelli!

by MarkoMancuso on Apr 10, 2008 10:24 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Penn State/Pitt
I have heard it called the battle of Route 22
Hating everything non-PSU since 1982

by nittanyfaithful on Apr 9, 2008 10:04 AM EDT   0 recs

The Battle of Route 22
Is trying to drive throuugh Murrysville on your way to State College on a Friday afternoon.
For the Glory National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Apr 9, 2008 11:32 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Rivalry Post Script - FWIW
It's interesting to note that in the history of Penn State, the four teams we've played the most are, in order: Pitt, Syracuse, Maryland and Bucknell.

If you have a copy of the ESPN College Football Encyclopedia, and for the love of god you should, in it's write ups on individual teams it discuses their biggest rival. Obviously Penn State is listed as Pitt's, but Penn State is also noted as the most hated opponent for both Syracuse and Maryland.

I think you could probably say the same about Rutgers, Temple and to an extent WVU as well. We left a big hole in the middle of eastern football when we "left", obviously we're still in the east, but the focus of the program is now decidedly Midwestern. The corollary with Maryland being in a league with all southern schools is not missed either.

The solution to the rivalry problem lies in Big Ten expansion. Sooner or later, the league will give up on Notre Dame, and the obvious solution will be to look to the East for a twelfth team. I have my ideas as to who it should be, but rest assured, I don't think it should be, or will be, Pitt.

For the Glory National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Apr 9, 2008 12:17 PM EDT   0 recs

Expansion teams
I'm guessing you've heard what I've heard... that Delany's interested in the NYC area.  Since Rutgers is on its way up (or so it seems) and Syracuse is decidedly on its way down, you'd think he'd target the former.

Personally, I'd love to see Maryland get into the conversation.  They have the Baltimore and D.C. markets cornered.  Boston College would be intriguing as well... though they're so far northeast that I'm guessing most Big Ten athletic directors and coaches would have a heart attack over the very thought of inviting them.

by BSM PSU 93 on Apr 9, 2008 1:00 PM EDT   0 recs

West Virginia
I realize adding them has no substanitive benefit, but it seems to make sense on a geographical and personality level.

West Virginia is, like most Big 10 schools, is a hub for the state.  The entire state of West Virginia hovers over WVU religiously. They're a football school with a solid basketball program to go along with it.  I think they'd be a good fit, except for the fact that they'd open no new markets.

That said, I'd like to see another team out of the midwest join up.  Mizzou and Nebraska jump out at me, and Texas, though likely a pipe dream, would be awesome.  The Big 10 has a lot of cash to throw around, and I think they could make a tempting offer to just about anyone.

God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by fugimaster24 on Apr 9, 2008 8:09 PM EDT   0 recs

Not possible
West Virgina does not meet the Big Ten's academic standards, which are actually quite rigid.

Pitt, Syracuse and Rutgers all do though, as does UConn I think.

For the Glory National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Apr 9, 2008 9:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I wasn't serious
I don't think WVU could meet the Woodland Hills school district's academic standards, but I think their profile fits that of other Big 10 schools, thats all.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by fugimaster24 on Apr 9, 2008 9:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

WVU
Other than academically, WVU would be a good fit in a lot of ways. But the Big Ten won't consider them because of their poor academics.

It isn't sexy, but the Big 12 theam that would be most likely to join the Big Ten is Iowa State.

For the Glory National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Apr 10, 2008 8:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The other interesting choice is Nebraska
which would be an good choice for a rival

by PSU Nick on Apr 10, 2008 10:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Dag
That's granny panty un-sexy!

by jtothep on Apr 10, 2008 1:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Interested in more
Thoughts on this.  What are you using as a measurement of academic standards, such that you think (unsexy) ISU is a good fit?  I get the geography and state school sims...

by jtothep on Apr 10, 2008 1:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Iowa State
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivies

Last I checked Iowa State was ranked about the same as Penn State in the US News rankings. It takes a pretty progressive Big Ten fan to think that Rutgers would be a good fit in the league. Whereas, Iowa State would fit tight in.

There is also some organization, that I can remenmber the name of, for something like the top 1% of colleges nationwide.  Every Big Ten School is a member of that. That is the benchmark the Big Ten uses.

For the Glory National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Apr 10, 2008 2:14 PM EDT   0 recs

Obviously, I can't remember the name
Or I would have said it.
For the Glory National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Apr 10, 2008 2:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Association of American Universities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Universities#Public_universities

I am pretty sure this is it.

Every Big Ten School is in it, and my understanding that membership in the AAU is the benchmark academic qualification for entrance into the Big Ten. Of course, Notre Dame is not a member. But then they really aren't joiners anyway.

Iowa State is a member, along with Pitt and Syracuse.

For the Glory National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Apr 10, 2008 4:33 PM EDT   0 recs

Missouri
I remember reading Missouri would be our first choice of B12 teams. They supposedly aren't happy being stuck in the B12 North. And they would make a better fit for the Big Ten by allowing us to tap into the St. Louis market. Iowa State brings nothing to the Big Ten other than being Iowa's natural rival.

You can be sure that unless it's Notre Dame the Big Ten is going to look outside of their current footprint of states to expand.

Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

Hail to the Lion!

by BSD on Apr 10, 2008 10:27 PM EDT   0 recs

Thinking Eastward
Yeah, I've heard Missouri's name as the most likely Big 12 candidate as well... and it would make some sense if the Big Ten wanted to expand westward.  However, I'd be surprised if that was the case.  There are higher population densities in the mid-atlantic and northeast... and thus more money to be made.  Hence, we have the rumor (fact?) that, if Delany indeed pushes for a 12th team, it would likely come from the NYC area... or at least somewhere east of State College.  

by BSM PSU 93 on Apr 11, 2008 9:12 AM EDT   0 recs

Iowa State
What I tried to say was that of all the teams in the Big 12, the one that probably wants to join the Big Ten is Iowa State.

Missouri has stated, pretty clearly, that they don't want to leave the Big 12. They need to play Kansas, and have found playing in Texas to beneficial. Iowa State has no similar ties, and makes much more sense in the Big Ten.

Fifty years ago the fact that ISU joining the Big Ten makes perfect sense might have mattered. But I agree that the conference wants to "expand its footprint" (buzzword bingo anyone?) and "capture the NYC market". If anyone would like to debate whether adding Rutgers, or god forbid Syracuse, to the league would actually accomplish this, start a thread and I'll be there. My suspicion is that the results would be disappointing.

For the Glory National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Apr 11, 2008 10:16 AM EDT   0 recs

Well...
I really don't know enough about Rutgers alumni, or New Yorkers in general, to be able to choose and defend a position in that debate.  All I know is that, as a Penn Stater, I'd much rather add Rutgers or Maryland to the Big Ten than Iowa State or Missouri, for obvious reasons.  Though, I'm guessing that sentiment is probably shared by most of us.

by BSM PSU 93 on Apr 11, 2008 1:23 PM EDT   0 recs

I'd rather see
Missouri or Iowa State than Pittsburgh or Syracuse to be certain.

If you follow the links in previous posts, you'll how unique the Big Ten is in terms of academic standing and athletic success. It's quite prestigious. It's something that I think that Penn State people generally don't take enough pride in.

It seems to me that Penn State earned its way into the Big Ten on the basis of athletic and academic achievement over a period of decades. I'm reticent to fully support Rutgers, who has little or no athletic tradition of any kind save three decent football seasons, simply because they are close to New York City. Frankly, I don't think that New York City is ever going to be a hotbed of Big Ten football, either with or without Rutgers.

I'm not opposed to Rutgers, I'm just skeptical.

For the Glory National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Apr 11, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

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