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Is A Little Effort Too Much To Ask?

 

Rankings1_medium

Between Fresno and Notre Dame?  Really?

I'll save everyone the obvious rant here and try to get to the reason I find this so disturbing.  This is a screen shot from Mark Schlabach's updated summer rankings.  Blurbs are obviously required, but you'll be disappointed if you think they give any insight into his rating system.

The issue here, I think, is that this apparently thoughtless set of rankings is posted on the most visible platform in sports.  To say "oh it's just a summer ranking" is partially correct, but when these guys decide to sit down and spit out their own Preseason Top 25's, how do you think they do their research?  See where I'm going here?

But so what, right?  Even if the AP preseason ranking is way off, won't it straighten itself out?  The truth is this: not necessarily.  Starting behind in the polls is not that much different than starting behind in a race: you can't win unless the other guys slow down.  An undefeated Penn State team in 2005 would have been shut out of the BCS National Championship game, and misguided preseason polls are one of the main reasons that the Auburn Tigers were short changed in 2004 (they started at #17, USC and Oklahoma debuted at #1 and #2).

While I'm not implying that our boy Schlabach gets to declare the BCS finalist in June, I am saying that the least he could do is put some thought into his work.  It's especially embarrassing for Penn State when you look at the ridiculousness of the sandwich they are put in.  Here are the two teams in all of D1a that Schlabach thinks fall in line next to PSU:

23. Fresno State - Mark says:

With 16 starters back from a team that finished 9-4 in 2007, Fresno State is a popular choice to unseat Boise State and Hawaii in the WAC and contend for a spot in a BCS bowl game.

Even if every starter was returning, a 9-4 record in the WAC doesn't exactly imply they are all of the sudden BCS bound in 2008.  Speaking of starters, according to your own website, Fresno is only returning 15 starters, not 16...which makes me wonder why in the world you wouldn't use your own "experts" as a resource.  Penn State also returns 16 starters and finished with a 9-4 record in the Big Ten, so naturally they fall behind the Bulldogs.

24. Penn State - To paraphrase, they can't be very good because Paterno is old.

25. Notre Dame - Mark Says:

NBC thought enough of their future to renew its TV contract another five years.

This is simply amazing: They are ranked in his Top 25 because of the extension of a TV contract.  It's not very often that I am blown away by the failed logic of the good people at the WWL (I've been conditioned), so congratulations Mark, you are a step ahead of your peers. 

I'm left thinking about the other teams that deserve this spot; all the other schools that would be sitting at 25 if only they were named Notre Dame.  Teams including, but not limit to: Georgia Tech, Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, Boston College, Navy and Air Force.  All of these teams manged to win more than three games, but apparently don't appear on TV enough to be ranked.  Tough luck guys.

I'm not here to say Penn State should be placed higher, or even that Notre Dame doesn't belong, my point is that it's scary how much say reports have in the process and equally troubling how little they appear to care.  Or maybe it's something else, I don't know.  Regardless of why this happens, here are a couple of things I find totally unacceptable in the poll system:

  • That voters justify a high ranking for a team because "they have a soft schedule", as in they will be ranked high because they won't lose much.  What the hell is the point of the polls then?  Why don't we just use overall W-L if you are going to judge your rankings on pure record.  The whole point is to be able to see past the schedule, to take the difficulty of the path into consideration.
  • When voters refuse to let a clearly better team jump a higher ranked team simply because both continue to win.  Preseason polls are totally unreliable and based entirely speculation, yet most writers refuse to reevaluate their original opinions based on what they actually see on the field.
  • That coaches get to vote.  No one has more invested in the BCS rankings than these guys and it's crazy that they are expected to not only follow all 120 D1a teams, but also objectively rate themselves and their opponents on a weekly basis.

 With all the talk about reformatting the BCS games, I think I might be more troubled by the underlying ranking system.  We can add another round of games, or even expand to an eight team playoff, but if we are going to change the format I think the selection process needs to be reevaluated as well.

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Reformation of the Poll process

Is the key to BCS. I’ve never understood why the people selected to vote either treat it frivolously, or can’t do the job properly because their job keeps them from watching the games; i.e. sportswriters and coaches. It’s almost like the voters are too close to the game to get the full picture, most would freely admit this.

Conversely, read Peter King or Paul Zimmerman’s articles about the Hall of Fame voting process. They take it so seriously, treat it as the tremendous honor that it is, and the process is better for it. The voting process in college football needs to be treated similarly.

I’d suggest appointing a panel of not necessarily “experts” but of educated people who take an oath to watch as much football as they can on Saturday and participate in a caucus on Sunday for as long as it takes to arrive at a consensus top 25 each week. Coupled with the computer models they use already the ranking system would finally be impartial.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994

by jesse. on Jun 27, 2008 9:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think a panel idea is great

it works well in basketball, and I’m not sure why you couldn’t employ it in the BCS. With the AP already out of the picture, it wouldn’t be difficult to tell the replacement AP and Coaches they are out. I doubt the coaches would actually care and no one should really care what the harris voters think.

by Kevin HD on Jun 27, 2008 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I volunteer

I think you’ve got a great idea, and when they are looking for canadates to watch football i would apply! This would be great, your job would be to watch and analize football!

by b598650 on Jun 27, 2008 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It might be tough

to give up beer on Saturday’s though.

For my dollar, when you read the HofF articles, it’s not that I always agree with the decision that makes me happy, it’s that you know it was thoughtfully discussed and debated by people who treat the responsibility seriously, and because of that the decision is always well reasoned and defensible. I think that would be a breath of fresh air in college football.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994

by jesse. on Jun 27, 2008 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

im...

just surprised we didn’t get ranked below ND.

JD

by psudrozz on Jun 27, 2008 9:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

WHat makes it worse....

Here is Schlabach’s top 25 at the end of spring practices. There are a bunch of changes. No team really shoots way up or down the rankings, but there are a number of teams that moved a few spots. My question is…..what’s changed? What has happened since May 9th that makes Georgia now better than Ohio State? Why did Missouri drop 3 spots? This stinks of Schlabach just needing a column to meet a deadline.

by speedomike on Jun 27, 2008 10:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

some numbers on notre dame

From last year, as you can see their ranking on total offense was 119, sacks 119, rushing offense 115. Their defense was average. They return their EMU at QB and the same offensive line. Good luck with staying in the top 25. The only good things about ND this year are their schedule and the fact that if Weis gets run into on the sideline during a game he is more likely to injure the player than to sustain an injury himself, lardass.

TEAM RANKINGS

119 teams ranked in Division Football Bowl Subdivision
3 teams ranked in Div IA Independent
Category National
Rank Actual National
Leader Actual Conf
Rank Div IA Independent
Leader Actual
Rushing Offense 115 75.25
Passing Offense 110 167.00
Total Offense 119 242.25
Scoring Offense 116 16.42
Rushing Defense 96 195.42
Pass Efficiency Defense 22 111
Total Defense 39 357.00
Scoring Defense 72 28.75
Net Punting 13 37.89
Punt Returns 52 9.12
Kickoff Returns 93 19.69
Turnover Margin 55 .00
Pass Defense 2 161.58
Passing Efficiency 113 104.63
Sacks 96 1.50
Tackles For Loss 113 4.75
Sacks Allowed 119 4.83

Boom goes the dynamite.

by psu on Jun 27, 2008 10:02 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

notre dame

I also heard that the NBC contracts states that if ND is .500 or better this season that lil Jimmy automatically wins the Heisman, Charlie is coach of the year, and ND gets to pick which BCS bowl game they’d like to play in.

by NJ lion on Jun 27, 2008 10:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Just Win, Baby.

If you want to climb out of the 24th spot just win and the pools will take care of themselves. Should PSU be 12-0 at the end of the season, the voters would not deny Paterno a chance for the National Championship regardless of where they began the season in the pools. (Be that fair or not, it will be the reality for Paterno’s last deemed hurrah.)

Best of luck to you guys this year. Some advice, however – cheer for your Blue and White, and quit bashing other teams. You will all be a lot happier if you lose the inferiority complex and quit pretending that once again "the world is against us".

Go Irish.

by NDJerry90 on Jun 27, 2008 11:05 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I appreciate your sentiment.

My point was that ND just jumped out at me on the ranking given last season’s results so I thought I would show the numbers. And I really don’t like Charlie Weis on a personal level so I thought I would let that show as well.

Boom goes the dynamite.

by psu on Jun 27, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It should be a fun season.

Sounds good.

Ha, ha, did you happen to write the most recent Sporting News article?

by NDJerry90 on Jun 27, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Umm...

Your boys won three games last year, and have not won a bowl game in fifteen years. The problem isn’t that Penn State fans have an inferiority complex; it’s that Notre Dame fans don’t.

The fact is you guys go Bowl Games you don’t belong in and get trounced. It’s a legit criticism of the system that this continues to happen, so don’t lay it on us like were jealous. It’s your fault not ours. I would be mortified if we kept taking beatings like you guys do on New Years Day. Seriously, aren’t you guys even the slightest bit embarrassed?

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994

by jesse. on Jun 27, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Classic.

Eric Watters Atlanta, Ga.

by ech2os on Jun 27, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Welcome NDJerry90 to BSD

My comments were a bit of sarcasm on the comments I read in the waste of paper pre-season mags (that I anxiously await for every summer!) and the crazy comments of a ND-fan boss. A boss who went to Rutgers and who’s son goes to ND, so I get a daily bombardment of over-exaggerated ridiculousness!

And no inferiority complex here when you know your team is #1!!!

by NJ lion on Jun 27, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

I appreciate the welcome.

Still, I am always amazed at the fascination with Notre Dame on this and other Penn State websites. I can almost guarantee that there are more posts about ND at any point in time than any other school including your fellow Big Ten schools. That’s pretty amazing when we don’t even play each other anymore.

Have a great season, and Go Steelers!

by NDJerry90 on Jun 27, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we're all just mad

that we had to see Emu’s parents inbetween every hapless play last year instead of, you know, anything else.

by Kevin HD on Jun 27, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Smart move

Deflect the anti-ND slant of this post to the eternal Eagles vs. Steelers battle.
We’re not smart enough to fall for that one!

I don’t think it’s fascination with ND, but being tired of the endless national-media lovefest with ND (I feel the same way with the Cowboys and Yankees). And plus it’s Friday afternoon.

by NJ lion on Jun 27, 2008 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

trivia....

i wish i could take credit for this….but this came from Pennlive…

(http://blog.pennlive.com/pennstatefootball/2007/08/notre_lame.html)

5,388 equals:

A. The number of inches in Charlie Weis belt

B. The number of days since ND won a bowl game

C. Number of National Championships claimed by ND

D. Total dollars earned by Ron Powlus in the NFL

Answer: B

by Stately NOVA Lion on Jun 27, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm

You don’t seem to notice that Kevin wrote about as much about Fresno State as he did about Notre Dame. And you also don’t seem to notice that the point of the post wasn’t to rip Notre Dame, but the polling system. You’ve turned this into a Penn State is obsessed with Notre Dame thing.

Jesse said it best. For a team that was 3-9 last year and hasn’t won a bowl game for 15 years your fanbase shouldn’t be nearly as arrogant as you are.

by speedomike on Jun 27, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

What about the original post implies an inferiority complex or a world against us mentality? Kevin is fairly criticizing the polling system and jackasses like Schlabath who effect all of college football that put little to no thought into their rankings.

by speedomike on Jun 27, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

First Poll in October

If they can’t overhaul the process, the easier thing to do may be to push back the time when the initial poll comes out until the first weekend in October. You could still have the pre-season poll during the summer, but the real official poll should not come out until a few games have been played and it is clear who has the ability to live up to their potential. Doing this would at least eliminate the problem of better teams who are ranked lower in pre-season polls from having to hurdle teams that are deemed weaker (whether due to quality of opponents or having struggled mightily against weaker teams) but have yet to lose a game.

by Loyal Lion on Jun 27, 2008 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Phill Steele

If you guys need a little pick me up go out and buy Phil Steele’s preview book, he really likes PSU this year. Ranked #10 and is projecting an USC v. PSU Rose Bowl.

by PSUfanSTUCKinSECland on Jun 27, 2008 12:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

as much as i would love that

it’s amazing how USC gets to play the B10 #2 every single year. As much as I do like the rose bowl connection, I’m having a hard time remembering the last time is was 1 v 1.

by Kevin HD on Jun 27, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The NCAA likes to give

USC home game at the end of every year (Rose Bowl) and then they play the big ten #2 who travels across the country.

Another bowl game turned home game but we won’t get into that again…

by PSUfanSTUCKinSECland on Jun 27, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

USC

Would have beaten Illinois in LA, Champaign, State College or on the Moon. Michigan too I’m afraid.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994

by jesse. on Jun 27, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nothing about Ohio State's recent bowl trips

makes me think that they would have had any more luck eiher, but we’ll see in a few months.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994

by jesse. on Jun 27, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True

All very true statements…would the pollsters see it as a better win if a big ten team beats lets say USC or UCLA at the Rose Bowl. I guess what i’m saying is shouldn’t these SEC and PAC-10 teams beat us anyway in bowl games in their backyard?

by PSUfanSTUCKinSECland on Jun 27, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not necessarily

Both bowl teams get equal shares of tickets, and while the travel is an issue, the team playing close to home still stays in a hotel and does all of the various activities that constitute the "bowl experience". Plus they usually stay at least ten days, so it’s not like they are flying across the country Friday afternoon to play a game on Saturday.

The problem is, for all of Pete Carroll’s "genius" he’s managed to keep the most talented team in the country from winning a national championship the past several years. Say what you want about Tressell and Ohio State, they win their regular season games and let teams with losses whine about why they aren’t playing for the National Title even though they think they are better.

For this reason, you have a really great team playing a pretty above average team in the Rose Bowl. Illinois was not a lot better than us last year, and USC would have murdered Penn State. But maybe it will go the other way this year, with Ohio State getting a crack at the second place Pac Ten team.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994

by jesse. on Jun 27, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Equal Share of Tickets?

I want to point out that equal share of tickets does not equate to each team getting half of the seats in the stadium. I believe for the Rose bowl less the 1/2 of the seats are given to the schools. A few thousand go to the conferences and the rest are sold locally. Therefore, there will be a disproportionate number of fans attending unless both teams are from out of state.

by ageing lion on Jun 27, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ND & NBC

NBC thought enough of their future to renew its TV contract another five years.

I get a kick out this too, Notre Dame Football is on NBC right before the Pro Rodeo Tour comes on. For god’s sake NBC televised Arena Football and the XFL. Why not renew the contract, what the hell else are they going to show on Saturdays, cock fighting?

Everybody says this contract is a huge advantage, but how has that advantage manifested itself? It sure hasn’t been in the Win column.

I think you could make an argument that you get as much exposure by playing on ESPN and ABC because they obviously promote their own games and about 85% of college football games are on those two channels. I’ll concede that the national coverage probably gives them more exposure, but how much more is debatable. Just as often they are out of sight and out of mind on a channel nobody looks to for football.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994

by jesse. on Jun 27, 2008 12:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Advantage

is that it perpetuates the arrogance, which is an actual advantage to the self-righteous. Cockfighting is a fantastic idea! Aside from the obvious outcry that would occur in the michael vick wake, I’d guess more americans would tune in to that than to a notre dame game. In fact, let’s find out….

Convivite Nudem!

by jtothep on Jun 30, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is A Little Effort Too Much To Ask?

Apparently, yes. Does the sports writer job pay much? Because if it does, sign me up. I’d love to get paid good money to make some ridiculous guesses based on half-ass information and hearsay. This is even worse than the weathermen who change their forecast several times a day.

by NJ lion on Jun 27, 2008 1:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

that's why I'm glad the NFL doesn't have all this BS

just win your games and you’re in the playoffs. Beat up on your division and you have a good shot.

This poll stuff is just total BS. It’s made me look at NCAA and my PSU fandom as more of a hobby whereas the NFL is my fan job. The NCAA is too quaint to take seriously… as long as we beat michigan…

"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."

by showtime on Jun 29, 2008 11:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

To each his own...

But the NFL is too antiseptic for me. College football is way more compelling, and as BS as things like the polls are, they are part of what makes it all so interesting. Plus, 9-7 teams can play for the championship in the NFL.

by speedomike on Jun 29, 2008 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, but nonsense like being ranked behind some piece of crap WAC team can really matter to your season in the NCAA. Enough people think it and it’s real. In the NFL, you see some BS power rankings like that and you laugh at them, and you wait until the playoffs…

I just feel like ‘the country at large’ or whatever doesn’t take PSU seriously, and you really need that to move up in the polls and be respected. And if we lose to a conference rival for over 10 years straight, why should we be taken seriously?

Sorry, I am not going to be right with the universe until we take michigan down. After that, we can work on other goals.

"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."

by showtime on Jun 30, 2008 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Editors

are who I blame for this tripe list by Schlabach. The end product is so elementary (and the wee comments about each team so frivolous), it’s clear to me that they have specifically asked for fluff, in this dead time. Have any of you been reading the Ombudsman columns by LeeAnn Schreiber on the WWL’s site? It’s been a fascinating look into the big machinery up there. I love it when she interviews biggerwhig production dudes and evp’s in charge of programming and such. They all sound so shady. While they seem to want to at least appear to be interested in improving their overall journalism, they nonetheless fail to totally mask their arrogance at being in a position with real power to shape how sports get covered these days.

And with all due respect to speedomike, arguments like ‘as BS as things like the polls are, they are part of what makes it all so interesting’ are what the people of power in our favorite sport hear the most and are part of what helps them maintain their righteousness about all these things we clearly identify as effed up.

Convivite Nudem!

by jtothep on Jun 30, 2008 4:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I doubt that

I think the powers that be hear just as much, if not more, about the need for a playoff. I think they choose to hear what they want to hear, then ultimately goes in the direction that makes them the most money. I don’t think anything we as fans say or want matters to them. I agree that the polls are effed up and it was a weak argument on my part. I just really don’t get the obsession with the NFL so I was looking for a counter.

by speedomike on Jun 30, 2008 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here is the argument

Who was the best team in college football last year? Probably LSU, right?

Who was the best team in the NFL last year? Definately New England, right?

New England beat the Giants on their own home field in last week of the season less than a month before the Super Bowl. So how the hell are the Giants, who didn’t win their own division, and barely even made the playoffs, now the best team in the league? Because they won a four hour long Budweiser commerical desguised as a football game? Now that’s random, at least there is a methodolgy to the BCS.

So does a playoff devalue the regular season? Yes, of course it does. Does a playoff give you best champion? Obvioulsy not. Want a playoff, watch the hundred other sports that have them. Two (NCAA basketball and the NFL) are popular. The rest suck. Not every sport has to be the same, appreciate the differences.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994

by jesse. on Jun 30, 2008 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

amen

i’ll bash the system with the rest of them, and my argument has always been I want something in between, but I couldn’t agree more with your last sentence.

by Kevin HD on Jun 30, 2008 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its Debateable.........

as to whether New England was the best team last year. If you watched their performances the last quarter of the season and the playoffs, they weren’t clearly better than their opponents.

What is the best team anyhow ? How do you define that ? Its not absolutely quantifiable. However, I think the main difference between college football and the NFL lies in the expectations of the fans. I don’t believe the Super Bowl has ever been about finding out who the best team in the NFL is. To me its been, much like NCAA Basketball, more about the pageantry and rivalries and underdogs and who can make it through the season and the playoffs to win the prize. College Football has always been about trying to tag a team as “the best” in the country. Two completely different ends with two completely different sets of exepcations of the fanbase. JMHO.

Eric Watters Atlanta, Ga.

by ech2os on Jul 1, 2008 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Debatable. Sorry :)

Eric Watters Atlanta, Ga.

by ech2os on Jul 1, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

college v pro

The problem with college, however, is that all the different voters are using off the wall criteria. The poll sponsors need to come out with some type of set of standards if they are to be respected. One guy may rank solely by on-field performance, and thus would punish a team for losing by a small margin over a crappy team. Others think a win is a win and don’t care. Others still rank based on who looks the best on paper but then create some type of punishment for losing. Finally, you have pollsters that will punish a team for not winning their conf, which kept UGA out of the MNC discussion even though there is no reason to (it didn’t apply to OU when they were blown out by Kansas several years ago).

The NFL system sucks for different reason: you can lock a playoff spot up very early and sandbag for several weeks at the end of the season: that to me is the biggest downside to a CFB playoff.

by Kevin HD on Jul 2, 2008 11:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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