You Can't Take The Effect, And Make It The Cause
Regarding convenient explanations.
These criminal charges coincide with concerns from a former player, a recruiting analyst, local media and others that Penn State has pursued recruits who are good athletes but might have questionable character issues, in order to improve performance. The team under head coach Joe Paterno faced an unprecedented four out of five losing seasons from 2000 to 2004.
Not sure why they couldn't just mention their names. That would appear to be the "journalism" thing to do.
Former Player - Michael Haynes
Recruiting Analyst - Bob Lichtenfels
Local Media - Stephen A. Smith Mike Missanelli
Others - Unknown - Nice touch ESPN, very....pointless.

The last part of the quote is true, of course. Penn State went though the worst stretch in the Paterno era.
The reason I find this so ridiculous is because they claim that (at least) five different people have determined from the evidence that Penn State's problem is that Paterno sold out. That he abandoned the "Great Experiment" in order to chase the better performing teams in the Big Ten. The problem is I have no idea how they came to that conclusion. Did they visit all of the guys who have committed to PSU over the past four years and talk to their mothers? Did they look up police reports or detention logs at their high schools? What makes a guy one with "character issues"? If it isn't something tangible, it's nothing.
So with that in mind I did the only thing I could do to try and lend some insight. I looked up all of the players on "The List" (starting with the apartment fight, if nothing came up after a few google searches that player was skipped) and backtracked in order to figure out who else, besides Penn State, offered a scholarship.
Chris Bell - Virginia, Virginia Tech, Cal, Florida, Miami, Michigan
Phillip Taylor - Virginia, Virginia Tech, Florida, Maryland, Ohio State
Tyrell Sales - Pitt, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Florida State, Notre Dame (well then, he can't be a thug), Ohio State
Knowledge Timmons - South Car, BC, UConn, Maryland, Minnesota, NC St
Navorro Bowman - Virginia Tech, Illinois, MSU, NC, OSU
Chris Baker - Syracuse, Wisconsin, UConn
Ryan Breen - Illinois
Andrew Quarless - Pitt, Syracuse, Virginia, Wisconsin, Miami, Michigan, Nebraska
Austin Scott - UCLA, Virginia, Michigan, NC
Lydell Sargeant - PSU, Stanford, Utah, Fresno, BYU, North Carolina, Oregon
Justin King - Pitt, USC, Florida, Miami, Michigan, OSU
Anthony P. Scirrotto - Stanford, Temple, Vanderbilt, Wisconsin, Georgia Tech, Minnesota
So if Penn State was recruiting questionable character kids, then you would expect at least one kid on The List to have that reflected in his list of offers. The opposite appears to be true.
Of these "problem players" most received offers from at least one other Big Ten program. Schools include Michigan, Ohio State, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan State, and Wisconsin. Only Indiana, Northwestern, Iowa, and Purdue were absent, but we are rarely competing with those programs for recruits simply because of the status of the Penn State program.
Point: If you want to claim that Penn State has started recruiting character issue players, you have to make the same claim against all the Big Ten schools I just mentioned.
Of these "problem players" many received offers from some of the most academically respected schools in D1a football. Virginia, Cal, Boston College, Vanderbilt and Stanford all boast strong academic and citizen standards, or at least they bank on that perception.
Point: If you want to claim that Penn State has started recruiting character issue players, you have to make the same claim against all the schools generally held in high regard mentioned above.
So there are a couple of different ways to look at this:
One: Everyone is recruiting character issue players, including schools who would probably claim otherwise such as (but not limited to) Michigan, Notre Dame, Stanford and Vanderbilt.
Two: No one is recruiting character issue players, at least to their knowledge and not any more than has been acceptable for the last 100 years.
I'm not here to make up anyone's mind but you probably know where I stand. Penn State has been competing for recruits with the schools mentioned above for as long as they have been nationally relevant. How any of these people could give ESPN this story without anything to back it up is curious (the recruiting expert, especially). How ESPN could take their word for it without so much as a simple Google inquiry is probably irresponsible.
This isn't to say the program doesn't have issues, or that there aren't troubled kids on the roster. The point is that lazy journalism is dangerous, and when you take people's opinions as facts without looking into them, it appears as though you are attempting to slant your story.
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But but but but...
...that means the entire premise of the show was…wrong?? Nah…
"We heard all that talk all week about the SEC and their speed, but we knew personally that they weren't nearly as tough as us."
-Tony Hunt
by Cpiritual27 on
Jul 30, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
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well done...
it amazes me the little amount of research ESPN did for this piece…after the airing of the show i have developed a strong dislike for the coverage of “big stories” ESPN does….not the first time they have been wrong “Les Miles to Michigan”
by PSUfanSTUCKinSECland on
Jul 30, 2008 1:18 PM EDT
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The issue isn't recruiting bad kids
The issue should be what is happening with those kids once they’re on campus, and how Paterno deals with it.
by Run Up The Score on
Jul 30, 2008 1:20 PM EDT
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And I'll say once again
That nothing said by either Haynes or Lichtenfels implicated Penn State as intentionally recruiting criminals. Nothing.
by Run Up The Score on
Jul 30, 2008 1:21 PM EDT
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well done post...
...and in regard to RUTS comment about what’s happening with the kids on campus, I’d be eager to read something that compares the PSU teams in the 80s and early 90s with these guys.
My gut is that these problems aren’t that different from anything else that’s ever happened, the difference is the smothering media coverage and an ambitious DA.
by spakajewia on
Jul 30, 2008 1:24 PM EDT
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I don't know...
There’s an obvious problem. I don’t think anybody can really say, “this is what has always happened”. The sheer number of encounters with law enforcement - nevermind convictions and final dispositions - indicates a definite behavioral issue.
by Run Up The Score on
Jul 30, 2008 1:26 PM EDT
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This is pure speculation...
but there’s a chance that back in the day, the cops would find some football players doing something stupid, call Joe, he’d get them, read them the riot act, run their asses off at practice, and that would be the end of it. Now, they’re choosing to handle everything through the legal system, which isn’t bad necessarily, but it doesn’t mean that the players are behaving all that differently than they did in the past.
by spakajewia on
Jul 30, 2008 2:24 PM EDT
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It's certainly possible.
When I was at PSU in the mid-late 1990’s, I knew a football player who got drunk and crapped on someone’s floor. Just…crapped on the floor. What did the girl do? Called Sue.
That player never saw the field, by the way. Not just because of that, but many other minor incidents.
by Run Up The Score on
Jul 30, 2008 2:48 PM EDT
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Something like the Meridian incident
could not have been swept under the rug like that back then. The fight at the HUB? MAYBE. But not the Meridian.
by M1EK on
Jul 30, 2008 2:50 PM EDT
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That's totally true
The minor stuff could always have been handled by Joe, but not the large-scale stuff that’s led to our current dilemma.
by Run Up The Score on
Jul 30, 2008 2:52 PM EDT
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There's nothing wrong with being an ambitious DA
I understand that in some of the cases it appears as though Madeira filed charges when they shouldn’t have been filed but in other cases I think Madeira gets a bad wrap for doing his job. If the laws are on the books then they’re there for a reason and I’d be disappointed if he chose not to enforce them regardless of who the offender may be.
Patiently waiting for the return of Penn State Football
by ReadingNitFan on
Jul 30, 2008 1:30 PM EDT
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there's something wrong with being an ambitious DA...
if it means not providing equal protection under the law. It’s pretty easy to spot football players in state college, and if the police are targeting them now more than the would anyone else, that’s unfair. Maybe that’s the price of “fame” so to speak, but it doesn’t make it right.
There’s a clear advantage to Madeira arresting and charging football players: headlines. The fact remains, this guy nearly ruined Austin Scott’s life. When he was charged and accussed, there were headlines on espn.com constantly. I don’t remember if there was much publicity about the charge being dropped, but if there wasn’t, it certainly wasn’t tantamount to the previous press.
If anyone misbehaves, they should face the consequences, but it’s not fair to single anyone out either.
by spakajewia on
Jul 30, 2008 2:29 PM EDT
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here is my whole problem
from the pool party story:
“I was aware yesterday about an incident at a pool party—that there was an accusation that it involved football players,” Madeira said.
Why is it worth mention to the DA that they were football players?
Kevin @ Black Shoe Diaries
by Kevin HD on
Jul 30, 2008 4:56 PM EDT
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Why?
Probably the reporter asked him, “why are you salivating right now?”
by Tailgate Shogun on
Jul 31, 2008 8:11 AM EDT
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Furthermore...(yes, I'm still going.)
I can’t really explain how tired and angry this whole ordeal makes me feel. ESPN’s botched hatchet job, Paterno’s combative indifference, the steady stream of screw-ups by our players, the borderline unfair treatment by the district attorney’s office, and so on.
Also, I can’t help but think that Paterno sees what is happening around him, knows that the walls are closing in on him, and he’s acting unevenly and irrationally. This is not good for anybody, and I’ll be utterly amazed and disappointed if he’s back in 2009.
by Run Up The Score on
Jul 30, 2008 1:24 PM EDT
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So wait...
...Paterno only gives scholarships to no talent kids who work hard, I thought.
At least that’s what some would have us believe.
by stonewall435 on
Jul 30, 2008 1:36 PM EDT
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I think it breaks down pretty simply
1. My take on the behavioral issue is that the worst incidents, at the apartment and the HUB (see also 2005 Ice Skating Rink), are indicative of spoiled kids who are treated like rock stars. I think that treatment starts long before they get to Penn State, but it certainly doesn’t stop when they arrive. The trigger of course is booze, and I don’t think the football players are the only spoiled kids that are to blame.
2. With respect to Paterno, I think the issue is easier to pinpoint. He does whatever the hell he wants, period. He deals with each incident individually, and he’s not constrained to treat similar instances similarly. He’s attitude with the ESPN guy was; "it’s my decision and I don’t give a damn what you or anybody else thinks". TV news programs, and dare I say even blogs, love to take out guys who have achieved that level of power. It’s almost unheard of in this day in age that one guy would have such unfettered control over a situation, and the irony is that ESPN’s whole point was that he’s lost control.
3. The DA is easier still. Residents are outnumbered by students 40 to 1 in State College. The only thing that keeps those kids in line is fear. The best way to keep them afraid is by making examples of the most prominent members of their group, i.e. football players.
For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994
by jesse. on
Jul 30, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
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Well done Kevin
Would you please copy & paste your editorial over to ESPN’s blog for A.R’burg to respond?
...though I’m thinking he wouldn’t dare touch it with the ‘ole “black shoes” extended to the end of the provibial ”...(Big10) foot pole!
Again, I believe your facts are worthy for a bigger audience to read…so that location comes to mind.
Thank you!
Old School... MEETS New School!
by BlueWhiteLife on
Jul 30, 2008 1:51 PM EDT
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Agreed 100%
Beautifully done, Kevin, as always. I just wish more people outside our loyal band of BSD readers could see it. It truly deserves notice. Kudos, my friend.
by BSM PSU 93 on
Jul 31, 2008 8:55 AM EDT
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What the hell is this table?
Penn State Criminal Charges
Is there a double standard at Penn State? ESPN researched the number of football players charged with crimes and the number of counts. All of records are from the state of Pennsylvania.
Year Players Counts
2002 4 6
2003 10 20
2004 8 32
2005 11 12
2006 5 7
2007 17 72
2008 3 14
Total Players Charged: 46 Total Counts: 163
Total Players Guilty: 27 Total Guilty: 45
What about that table proves a “double standard”?
by speedomike on
Jul 30, 2008 3:11 PM EDT
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Oops
Didn’t copy the way I meant it.
by speedomike on
Jul 30, 2008 3:11 PM EDT
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I appreciate the white stripes reference.
by spakajewia on
Jul 30, 2008 3:16 PM EDT
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i’ve had this song in my head all day now.
Kevin @ Black Shoe Diaries
by Kevin HD on
Jul 30, 2008 4:41 PM EDT
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What I like best about posts like these....
Is that they give me good ammo for when my friends want to talk shit about this story.
by speedomike on
Jul 30, 2008 3:37 PM EDT
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what nudges me...
is the fact that they made those kids from meridian look completely innocent. The show depicted these “bully” football players stomping the puss out of 3 seemingly innocent kids, and not stopping to think “hey maybe these kids were doing something equally stupid.”
im not defending what happened, but people don’t attack other people for no reason/a good time… The neglect on ESPN’s part to erase everything but what the football players did throws what happened terribly out of skew
For the glory
by lionalum05 on
Jul 30, 2008 3:47 PM EDT
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agree and disagree
If the kid would have got his ass beat on the street, I’d be inclined to agree with you. The problem is with the pre-meditated activity of rounding up a posse and going to an apartment to restart the fight. Of course, the criminal solicitation charges were among those that were dropped.
Conversely, as I noted in the other thread, as inflated as the charges wound up being, the players were not charged with anything approaching smashing a beer bottle over a guys head than beating on an unconscious victim. The charges for the physical violence in the apartment never got beyond misdemeanor simple assault, which is your garden variety pushing and shoving with one or two punches thrown. The incident described by the two victims, as they were, would have easily been an aggravated assault.
Based on the charges that were filed and those that were subsequently dismissed, at a minimum, what happened was that Scirrotto called his brother, a friend and a (singular) teammate. Six teammates arrived. They pushed their way into an apartment, there was a garden variety drunk college kid fight with a lot of pushing and shoving and some punches thrown.
The victims’ more serious accusations found their way into a police report to be sure, but the DA, for whatever reason, either did not believe them, or otherwise decided not to pursue what would have been the most serious charges.
For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994
by jesse. on
Jul 30, 2008 4:08 PM EDT
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Also
The DA investigated this for about a month before filing charges, he looked into victims story, apparently did not find it to be credible.
For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994
by jesse. on
Jul 30, 2008 4:11 PM EDT
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but how could you not believe the story
with the way that kid sells it.
I mean did you see his shadow boxing? And the way he picked up that imaginary bottle and started hitting that imaginary dude’s head with it…I felt like I was at a real bar fight.
Kevin @ Black Shoe Diaries
by Kevin HD on
Jul 30, 2008 4:37 PM EDT
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I loved the "wooo"
Like he just “made” a sack or something.
by speedomike on
Jul 30, 2008 4:49 PM EDT
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The Woooooo
Was a Ric Flair reference I think…
by SweepTheLeg on
Jul 30, 2008 4:52 PM EDT
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ESPN
currently consists of:
1. New York Yankees
2. Brett Favre
3. T.O./any loud mouth
4. Boston Red Sox
5. USC
I remember when I enjoyed ESPN….when it had variety.
by raimman on
Jul 30, 2008 5:02 PM EDT
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Page 2 sucks
The Page 2 staff output has become atrocious in the past five years. Simmons has been mailing it in since the Red Sox won the World Series and he went on his around the world book tour (and who the fuck ever cared about House or JackO or even Jimmy Kimmel in the first place), and he’s taking the summer off anyway. Recent hire Jemele Hill wrote an entire article on how Kobe is straight up better than Michael Jordan (!!!!!)..........(!!!) and then I stopped reading her stuff. I don’t even click on Scoop Jackson’s articles because none deal with non-racially charged topics. Gregg Easterbrook and DJ Gallo are the only writers worth reading (pending a review of Reilly’s new work) and ESPN fired Easterbrook’s ass in 2003. He was only rehired years later to ballast a sinking ship and because NFL.com was never more popular, and even then he only writes half of the year. Gallo’s best stuff is over at sportspickle.com.
That being said, Bruce Feldman is an excellent ESPN writer with solid access to the college game, so they’re not all useless.
by gumbercules on
Jul 30, 2008 8:05 PM EDT
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College Football Live
Did anyone else see CFL this afternoon??? Not only do they all jump all over Joe for dismissing the dynamic duo today, but they called him an embarrassment to college football and that his legacy was now irreparably damaged. At least 5 minutes at the top of the show….
And to make it worse they had a fluff interview with the PITT QB!!!!!!
I Hate Mark May
by brubby on
Jul 30, 2008 10:25 PM EDT
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Dogpile on the rabbit.
Next year, we’re going to look back at this week as the undoing of Joe Paterno at Penn State.
by Run Up The Score on
Jul 30, 2008 11:31 PM EDT
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Welllll.....
Predicting the end of your coaches tenure when he’s in his 80s is a pretty safe bet. Not sure if this will be what does him in – or the fact that he’s 82.
He got rid of two cancerous tumors in Baker & Taylor. Assuming no one else finds themselves on the wrong end of a conversation with the police, I think he and his reputation will be just fine.
Now, if he trots out a 6-6 record or the riot squad shows up at Nittany Apartments, then perhaps you’re right.
by Tailgate Shogun on
Jul 31, 2008 8:15 AM EDT
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Agree.
But if we have a great season and avoid off-field issues this year, I don’t think we’ll be seeing a WWL piece on how he righted the ship.
by Screen Name 20 on
Jul 31, 2008 8:18 AM EDT
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ESPN has zero credibility
I stopped watching anything on ESPN (other than actual sporting events) ever since the pre-NHL strike year when they decided to air a stupid made-for-ESPN movie “Yankees on Trial” instead of a Flyers PLAYOFF game. A farciful movie about a fictional court case is better viewing than the PLAYOFFS of a major sports league?
They have only gone downhill since then. Their commentary, analysis, and reporting are inane and worthless. Most of the time, I just want to mute the talking heads so that I can actually watch the game. The fact that they did zero research for this piece is par for the course and just reinforces my opinion.
by JeremyInDC on
Jul 31, 2008 8:12 AM EDT
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Welcome JeremyinDC
are you my brother?
-jeffrey in dc
Convivite Nudem!
by jtothep on
Jul 31, 2008 3:26 PM EDT
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it's the coaches and not the players
It is not unusual to see an up tick in legal problems as a coach’s tenure increases past a certain point. I don’t think this has anything to do with a change in the recruits themselves but a distancing of the once strict head coach from the nuts and bolts of the program (for whatever reason). In Carr’s final season it is believed he tried to phase himself out of the day to day operation—possibly to give his assistants more reign to prove themselves head coach worthy. There was an obvious decrease in discipline (or foucs) on and off the field. Either JoePa is getting older and losing the energy or drive to micromanage things or he’s purposefully giving the "internal candidate(s)" freer reign to prove themselves. This has resulted in more legal problems since JoePa was the driving force behind the discipline. Discipline comes from the coach and not the player. Sure, you can avoid obvious felons in the making but otherwise we’re all picking from the same pot.
by blue-imafreak on
Jul 31, 2008 10:20 AM EDT
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Start by assuming the worst
Defining a character issue kid as having detentions, suspensions, a run in with the Police, and/or lost playing time during the football season while in High School. Those would be things that were known and recruiters would know about.
If you assume that all of the players listed had character issues in high school, then that list is damning of Penn State. The only school who recruited all of them is Penn State indicating that indeed Penn State was recruiting problem players.
The comparison to other schools is not a good one because those schools could be taking a chance on only one or two problem players per year. For example, Michigan went after Scott and didn’t get him. So Michigan could claim they didn’t have any problem players although they recruited one. The next year they then recruited King and Manningham. So they took a chance on two guys in one year. That indicates that Penn State was taking the most chances on problem kids, while the other schools were more selective.
The reality is no one knows if any of those kids had problems in high school. Juvenile problems with the law are normally sealed so reporters would not know. Their school record would also not be public knowledge so again, detentions, suspensions, etc. would not be available. So its only known they were a problem after getting to Penn State. Therefore you can not make the argument that Penn State is recruiting problem players.
Yes indeed, this was an entire hack job by ESPN. They provided zero evidence of anyone having an issue BEFORE going to Penn State. The only argument they could make is that the last couple of years several Penn State players have gotten out of line and that is an argument they did not even attempt to make.
So, this is a lesson for everyone. “DO NOT BELIEVE THE MEDIA’S LIES!”
by DrDetroit on
Jul 31, 2008 10:54 AM EDT
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Good Job
I continue to be amazed that BSD “bloggers” can produce a better analysis than the WWL…
Old School... MEETS New School!
by BlueWhiteLife on
Jul 31, 2008 11:03 AM EDT
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How many PSU games are scheduled for WWL/ABC
this year? Every televised PSU game we are going to be hearing the drones beat this story. Time to get satellite radio for the alternate broadcast.
"60% of the time, it works every time"
by rahpsu92 on
Jul 31, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
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Listening to the radio while watching the game on tv is an odd experience
You’re hearing the future before it happens
by PSU Nick on
Jul 31, 2008 2:31 PM EDT
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