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More Outside The Lines Reactions

(Greetings, The Big Lead readers!  When you're done with this post on the Outside The Lines story about Penn State, why not also check out our previous takes on the subject, notably "Rest Assured, Stephen A. Smith In Your Outrage" and "You Can't Take The Effect And Make It The Cause".)

The effects of the Outside the Lines are still being picked apart in the message boards and the editorial columns over a week after it ran. The general consensus seems to be much-a-do about nothing. So you would figure the World Wide Leader would go dig up something to demonstrate their ability to ruin people's lives. Gotta do what you gotta do to win those Emmy Awards I guess.

ESPN went hunting down some of our verbal commits from Maryland to see if anyone was changing their minds. They came up empty of course. So then they talked to the parents.

"Me and my mother watched it. It didn't really have an affect on me because I know what I can do and what I'm going through," said Derrick Thomas of Greenbelt Eleanor Roosevelt. "It doesn't really change my mind at all. I still like Penn State and I'm still with it."

While that sentiment is shared by the other athletes, Thomas' mother did not agree.

"To see all that stuff happening there, I really worry. At this point I don't really want him to go to that school. I know you can't run away because trouble is everywhere, but to see that they have a coach and a coaching staff that is not doing what they need to do to keep this stuff from happening really worries me," Angela Thomas said. "I don't want my son to attend a school where there's no guidance. When he's away from me I want him to have a role model to keep him in line."

According to an ESPN analysis of Pennsylvania court records and reports, since 2002, 46 Penn State players have faced 163 criminal charges. All told, 27 players have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to a combined 45 charges.

All of which makes Thomas more than a little concerned.

"I am. Honestly, I am." Angela Thomas said. "I'm going to have to have a serious talk with him. I'm definitely not leaving it up to him. We all need to sit down and talk about this because I just want the best for my son and I need to see what type of options he wants to have right now because Penn State, to me, is not a good option."

Anyone else get the impression the Maryland coaches are mailing copies of the Outside the Lines piece out to all the instate kids and their parents on DVD?

But not everyone came away from the OTL piece convinced Penn State is the new Thug U. The Harrisburg Patriot ran an editorial column this past weekend featuring Dr. John S. Nichols, a professor of communications at Penn State and a member of the steering committee on Intercolligiate Athletics. First let's lay out his credentials.

Intercollegiate athletics are seriously undermining the core academic mission of many universities, and the current rash of off-field misbehavior by athletes is just one indication.

As a longtime Penn State faculty member and an activist in a national movement for athletics reform, I am keenly aware of and concerned about the problems faced by educational institutions competing in big-time sports -- particularly my own university.

This is a man that knows what he is talking about when it comes to intercollegiate athletics. So why wasn't ESPN interested in what he had to say?

ESPN approached me twice to appear on camera and discuss my views of the recent off-field misbehavior by some Penn State players. So, why was I not taped by ESPN and why were my views not heard on the program? The almost certain answer: My point of view on the problem did not agree with ESPN's predetermined story line.

When I first was contacted late last year and agreed to the interview, it was clear that the ESPN reporter already had reached a fixed and negative conclusion about what he would find in his "investigation." Despite ample opportunity to produce a more accurate depiction of the problems at Penn State and, more generally, intercollegiate athletics nationwide, ESPN chose to report only elements that supported its starting assumptions.

You've probably noticed since this story broke I've been pretty silent on this issue choosing to let RUTS and Kevin do the talking and allow the conversation run its course in the comments. That's because I've struggled to wrap my arms around this and put it into words I felt properly summarized the situation. Thankfully, Dr. Nichols does it for me.

Penn State football is far from perfect. The recent off-field behavior of some players is an embarrassment and should not be tolerated. Aggressive actions must be taken to remedy the situation.

Moreover, Penn State is not immune to the intense economic and cultural pressures that have consumed intercollegiate athletics nationwide. Those negative external forces clearly weigh heavily on Penn State and, as a result, the university's athletics program is showing signs of stress.

But Penn State is making a serious effort to stem the negative tide that is corrupting college sports and their parent universities. For example, Penn State's athletics governing board is part of the faculty senate, subjecting intercollegiate athletics to considerable faculty oversight and control. At many peer universities, the athletics board is outside any serious academic control and is frequently the turf of sports boosters and jock-sniffers.

Penn State's official representative to the NCAA is a professor of sports ethics and one of the most thoughtful and effective national voices on the problems currently confronting intercollegiate athletics. Penn State's president and athletic director are committed to maintaining integrity and high academic standards in the athletic program.

Ultimately, the source of the problem and its remedy is not inside the walls of any individual university. It is a serious national problem that is in urgent need of a national solution. Individual universities fielding big-time sports programs differ only in the degree to which they are willing and able to fight these negative external pressures.

That's why ESPN's focus on the recent problems at Penn State is unfair and misleading. Penn State is a national leader in trying to conduct athletics the right way and should be recognized for that commitment.

And THAT is why Dr. Nichols is a communications professor and I'm just a sorry-ass blogger. Bravo, Dr. Nichols.

0 recs  |  Comment 49 comments

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Thanks Mike...

I’m glad someone is trying to give the other half of the story to what ESPN conveniently left out.

I have to say as someone who is a heavy ESPN watcher, I feel strange watching their Sports Reporting now. It’s like a trusted friend has done wrong by someone in my family, and I’m not sure if the relationship will ever be repaired.

"A setback is just a set up for a comeback." -Drew Brees

by kajpsu on Aug 4, 2008 11:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This whole ordeal...

makes me sick to my stomach. I don’t think we are worse than any other program out there in regards to players getting into trouble. If you look at the big picture (say, the past 50 years), we are probably far under the average in regards to off field incidents. But unfortunately, that doesn’t amount to much of anything in the minds of recruits, fans, and now media. OTL did a butcher job and tried to cram a whole lot of people under that proverbial bus, but at the same time, these kids ARE getting into trouble, and it p*sses me off to no end. Even in the years that our team was not successful and borderline bad, i at least was able to look at the miami fans and the florida state fans and say, “yeah, well at least we graduate our athletes and don’t ship them off to jail when their eligibility is up”. Now that is being taken away from me, and the reputation of our school is being tarnished. These kids, and I am talking all big time NCAA athletes here, have the world in the palm of thier hands, and they are throwing away opportunities for free education and athletic advancement to the next level. IMO, there needs to be stricter NCAA rules to punish players, instead of leaving it up to the team to kick the player off of scholarship after repeated offenses, only to basically have their recruitment start all over again for other schools…

longest rambling post ever… i’m done

by erieisforlovers on Aug 4, 2008 11:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OTL

Too bad this prof’s statements can’t reach as far as ESPN can with OTL. It’s sad to think that this slander piece may actually influence people.

by dawsonPSU10 on Aug 5, 2008 12:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

When it's all said and done...

we need to think about what this piece actually did. Did it make us look bad? Sure. Did it make us feel embarrassed? Sure. Did it completely tear the team to shred by placing small pockets of doubt into every current player’s mind? With the exception of Phil Taylor, it would seem, absolutely not.
If ESPN’s goal was to make us look bad on national television, that’s a weak goal. One would hope that they have no agenda at all, but most people seem to think they did. Most people also stop short of the worse case scenario which would be a spark for a mutiny over JoePa, and the total lack of faith from our players to our coaches. While I don’t believe OTL ever intended that, it’s good to see people like D-Will and Clark step up and just show complete faith in Paterno. It’s good to see the recruits still happy to come (even if their mothers aren’t) and it’s great to see our fans sticking behind this team. As I’ve said before, what has happened has happened. It’s time to stop justifying it and just leave sleeping dogs lie.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Also, for what it’s worth, I believe the interview with Mrs. Thomas was more than likely slanted to say one thing when she meant another. Or, she could be incredibly naive, or never have visited the University with her son. It just seems like that was not a full-blown, sit down interview… perhaps just a side comment or a 2 minute phone interview.

by AdamShell on Aug 5, 2008 1:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ESPN contacting recruits...

makes me even angrier about this hack job. We have a hard enough time with snake oil salesmen getting in the ears of our targets. Now we have to deal with ESPN asking them “are you sure you want to go to PSU with all this going on?”

Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.

by 06Lion on Aug 5, 2008 7:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am anxiously awaiting....

next week’s OTL on Georgia football. Oh wait, they are in the SEC and they are fast so we can’t bash them.

I agree with dawsonPSU10. This was a well written article and one that should be shared in a source like ESPN.

Pat Devlin in '08

by Nick7 on Aug 5, 2008 7:57 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Send it...

over to the ESPN blog site. A. R’burg handles the Big10…

Old School... MEETS New School!

by BlueWhiteLife on Aug 5, 2008 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

please...

” ‘splain” that one to me…

Old School... MEETS New School!

by BlueWhiteLife on Aug 5, 2008 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank You RUTS

...I understand now why you have cited this in the past.

I wonder if PSU is talking behind the scenes with the WWL on this…or just want the calendar to keep flippin’ forward and just let this heal (with both time and NO further player issues).

I think it is “FOX” that claims to be “fair & balanced” in their news reporting; that we’ll never see with the WWL…

Old School... MEETS New School!

by BlueWhiteLife on Aug 5, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would seriously doubt that...

I doubt that the Penn State program is on good terms with ESPN right now, given the way they’ve run this story multiple times and kept it going for a full week—now, to the point where they’re contacting current PSU commits to see if they’re looking elsewhere for college.

by Run Up The Score on Aug 5, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Journalistic Slander?

Jesse: any such animal?

Old School... MEETS New School!

by BlueWhiteLife on Aug 5, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The standard...

is reckless disregard for the truth. Since most of the stuff is true, it wouldn’t be slander or libel.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Aug 5, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More accurately

The answer is yes, the laws of slander and/or libel would apply, although a] truth is a defense, and b] printing something that is false is not, in and of itself, actionable, unless it was printed with reckless disregard for the truth.

Additionally, the standard is higher because Joe Paterno, Graham Spanier and the football team are “public figures” which means the first amendment grants greater protections to those who would write about them. This allows things like ESPN and indeed even BSD, to exist.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Aug 5, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whoa!

Hang on, mind is blowing…the juxtaposition of the wwl and BSD is shortcircuiting my peabrain…

Convivite Nudem!

by jtothep on Aug 5, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Buuuuut...

seeking out 17/18 yr old potential recruits to interview them on PSU alone, without just comparisons to other college programs..?

We have a target on our back, they keep pushing (oddly, why…somebody has a grudge against us…somebody is AFRAID we are about to have this machine “tuned-up” and contend…and lure more recruits w/ the high-flying HD?!)

Old School... MEETS New School!

by BlueWhiteLife on Aug 5, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If ESPN wanted to have a vedetta...

...against Penn State, and Penn State alone, they would be allowed provided they generally stuck to the truth. It would be shitty journalism, but not illegal. Even scarier is the amount of leeway they have when mixing opinion into the mix.

What they’ve done is contact recruits and asked them how the off the field issues have affected their views of Penn State. That’s what reporters do, especially if their under fire from their boss because the first story they did sucked and was full of holes. Watch/read All the Presidents’ Men for a better feel for what (actual) reporters do.

What do you think ESPN is going to do, apologize and retract the story, or keep digging until they find something tangible so they can say they were right all along?

It might be best to just let this go away.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Aug 5, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Ombudsman is Excellent

She’s great. She regulary admonishes the entire network for its failure to separate news from opinion. And, best of all, she has access to the decision-making powers there like nobody else. So, through her, we get to hear real quotes from the Producers and the EVPs of Programming and such; you know—the dbags in charge of driving this clunky machinery, and actually occasionally get a glimpse of some of the company’s atttitudes about itself, its direction and its sense of responsibility in this new media age.

Oh, and she’s also fair. I know, I know, bizarre concept, right? She also regularly gives praise for even the tiniest of improvements and for when she senses they are at least earnest in attempts to improve.

Easily the best read on that site. Now if only her column were more than monthly, and I’d love to hear from her on the print Editors.

Convivite Nudem!

by jtothep on Aug 5, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

She...

is a lot better than the last guy. I don’t think I even read an article of his, mainly b/c I don’t think he wrote one. She has an amazing attention to detail.

by Screen Name 20 on Aug 6, 2008 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't trying to steal your thunder...

but I put a fanpost (givind feedback to espn) with the link to the ombudsman before I read the comments.

I guess great minds think alike.

by spakajewia on Aug 5, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No problem...

better out there than buried in the comments.

by Screen Name 20 on Aug 6, 2008 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dr. Nichols seems like a good guy

with a good view of the situation. And yeah,it is a shame his story couldn’t get picked up by the national media. However, I hope this is the last piece on any of the past off-the-field troubles. I’m just ready for real football now.

"Boy that student section now is up and really making a gigantic amount of noise. You see the sea of white, the white out. Well they are 2 minutes and 28 seconds away from the whiteout of the Buckeyes here tonight." - Ron Franklin

by rmcmillen50 on Aug 5, 2008 8:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

espn is sad

And that is a great statement by Nichols.

Also, I love that he uses the term “jock-sniffers”

by Kevin HD on Aug 5, 2008 8:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

LOL

I was gonna comment on that as well….

Convivite Nudem!

by jtothep on Aug 5, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am glad to see some people are able to read between the lines.

With the OTL episode being aired and all the hooplah about ESPN contacting recruits, It is good to see the recruits and parents making statements about knowing how they are expected to behave. The ones that are showing concern must not have confidence that they have taught their young men how to act appropriately.

I have daughters that will be attending Main Campus in the fall. Yes, I am worried. However, I trust that I have instilled good morals and values that they will practice while attending.

These players and students that have brought on the skepticism have made poor choices. It is not Paterno’s or any other coaches responsibility to “babysit” these young men. They are their to get an education. FOOTBALL should be a priviledge.

I commend the parents that trust thier children to make wise responsible decisions. I am proud of the players that are able to make the statement that they know “Right from Wrong”.

Everything will be just fine.

Settle it on the field!

by PSUncle1981 on Aug 5, 2008 10:16 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Great finish

I love the endline…Thanks for the calming influence. You’re a good Uncle, to PSU and BSD. Good luck to your daughters this fall.

Convivite Nudem!

by jtothep on Aug 5, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

New Recruiting Article is Worse than Original OTL

Thankfully this new MD recruiting article is buried in ESPN HS football page, but its ridiculous that ESPN would even put it up. It’s an article about nothing, about what is not happening. How is that considered sports reporting? Where’s the “Tressel not considering NFL jobs” article? How about the “Clausen not considering transfering from ND” article? This is a blatant attempt to call more attention to a 16 month old story.

by The IC Lion on Aug 5, 2008 10:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

making news

it’s what they do. That fight happened over a full year ago. ESPN ran a ‘feature’ on it last week, masked as an investigation except they wrote the conclusion before doing any research. Then, after it airs, they show it to recruits and attempt to get them to change their mind. When they do not, they report that as a ‘recruiting update’...when, as you said, nothing has really even happened.

by Kevin HD on Aug 5, 2008 10:33 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ESPN

Is a disgrace and beating a dead horse.

What is the point of contacting these recruits? Is ESPN contacting other recruits from the Fulmer Cup list also??? They are obviously trying to help bring down the program/Joe. I think they didn’t like the angry reaction from nittany nation and how JoePa said it was a “witch hunt”.

Looks like the WWL will not let up until Joe steps down/fired and new regime comes in…probably from outside the program. Truth is…america loves when the honor student/judge/etc gets in trouble and looks bad.

by SweepTheLeg on Aug 5, 2008 10:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

the recruiting information scares me

When I was at PSU I was good friends with a defensive back who was recruited from Texas. The reason he ended up coming was because his mom liked the person recruiting him (I don’t remember who). But the funny thing was she didn’t even understand where he was playing after 2 years (he wasn’t starting). She thought he was going to U penn, and would tell her friends how he is going to an Ivy league school and how smart he was. This example is a little extreme but shows how perception of the program by parents who really don’t understand what their kids are getting into effects their recruiting. Any bad sign/story is going to make a parent leery.

Boom goes the dynamite.

by psu on Aug 5, 2008 10:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It is okay to let this ESPN story go. Let’s not beat this to death anymore.

by IceLion on Aug 5, 2008 10:51 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Amen, brother

Let’s just talk football from this point
Hey BSD, let’s get a big shiny football pic and “xx days until Penn State football”.
We need some good mojo or positive vibes or something around here.

by NJ lion on Aug 5, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They are going up at noon

Otherwise I would have to title them “Only Daryll Clark, Six Hours, Five Minutes, 23 Seconds Until Football”

by BSD on Aug 5, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice guess

Convivite Nudem!

by jtothep on Aug 5, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

Good call. I figured everyone would expect Aaron Harris.

by BSD on Aug 5, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know, you're right.

By giving that insignificant network any attention (good, bad, or indifferent), you’re giving them just what they want. Maybe from here on out we should just refuse to discuss it here anymore. Let their so-called “investigative journalism” go someplace else.

25 DAYS 3 MINUTES 45 SECONDS UNTIL OPENING KICKOFF

by Ab4PSU on Aug 5, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is my attitude towards ESPN:

FUCK THEM!!!

I have been less than impressed with them and their carnival barking Sportscenter sideshow for years now. Stuart Scott is an ass, and what does Linda Cohen know? I can’t even tell you the names of some of the other dweebs they have. They’re horrible. When I watch sports, I want to see people striving to reach, or exceed, their limits. I don’t want to be entertained. These no-talent clowns are not amusing at all. They think they’re part of the show. THEY ARE NOT!!!

Great research to prove that yes, we are all embarrassed about what’s been going on the last couple of years. I think we’re trying to fix the problem. A friend of mine watched the show, and said we looked bad. I’m so distrusting of any media anymore (if ESPN can even be called that) that I don’t believe anything they say. You have to just observe for yourself what’s going on in the world, and judge from there. It’s hard to tell exactly what JoePa had said during his interview with them, and then what portions of the interview “they” chose to air. That interview could have lasted over an hour, and then ended with them purposely baiting him to a hostile response, and then deciding to show that because it would support their already biased opinion (again, just like Bush & Cheney; changing facts to support opinions).

As far as the recruits go, I don’t think we’ll lose too many. The only thing that needs to be mentioned is :

1. If you look at the number of arrests (while even 46 players is too high), most of them
lately have been by repeat offenders who are too stupid or arrogant to learn.

2. All we have to do to the parents is show them the graduation rates of our African-
American atheletes compared to other schools, and show them that while we have
off-field issues that need to be corrected, if your son wants an education and a
degree, we (Penn State) will make sure he has something to fall back on if their
atheletic career doesn’t pan out.

by Ab4PSU on Aug 5, 2008 11:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And I forgot,

25 DAYS 6 MINUTES 58 SECONDS UNTIL OPENING KICKOFF

by Ab4PSU on Aug 5, 2008 11:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I can't believe.....

M1EK hasn’t reared his ugly head to post unintelligent dribble about this article???? Of course ESPN would never put a slant on an article…..or fail to give the whole story…...or actually report what happened according to the DA and police investigation…...or talk about how A Scott’s life was ruined by a known liar…...or talk about what really happened with Scott Paxson….....or talk about all the other NCAA 1-A institutions that recruited our troubled athletes…...or talk about how Tennessee and Maryland are drooling and fighting over Phil Taylor…....or FAIL TO EXCLUDE INTERVIEWS FROM RESPECTED FACULTY THAT FIT THERE PREDETERMINED STORY LINE!

I thought only safeties played 15 yards off the ball?

by pic15 on Aug 5, 2008 4:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Please

M1EK is trying to tone it down a bit. Let’s not single him out and bait him.

by BSD on Aug 5, 2008 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

M1EK is passionate

just like the rest of us. That he generally chooses to come at things from the opposite direction of most of us is simply personal choice. He wants PSU’s image to be stellar – as do we all.

There are ‘glass half full’ and ‘glass half empty’ people everywhere. Why should BSD be different?

'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'

by Pete the Streak on Aug 6, 2008 5:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alabama. Florida State. Nebraska.

All thought people were ‘ought to get them’ when they reported on their problems. All were wrong. We (Penn State fans) laughed at the delusional fools at those schools who circled the wagons rather than trying to fix their problems.

When your defense rests on a conspiracy theory that somebody is trying to ‘take down’ a program that hasn’t made much noise nationally for more than a decade, your argument is pretty damn weak.

by M1EK on Aug 6, 2008 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ESPN is not out to get Penn State.

But the angle on their story was Penn State lost for five years then abandoned its standards to recruit troublemakers that would help them win. That was the angle on the story going in, and that was the story they reported. They presented no evidence that supported that hypothesis, and embellished their story by presenting one side of an incident that happened 16 months ago.

Penn State made the head football coach, university president and players (including those involved in the incident) available to ESPN. We now know that that at least one professor was interviewed, but not put on camera simply because his impressions did not jive precisely with what ESPN had pre-determined it was going to report. That is, at best, shoddy reporting.

Regardless of our success, failures or national relevance, Joe Paterno & Penn State selling out would be a story if it were true. For ESPN to scream that it is true, with no actual evidence, is bad journalism. To say that recognizes a fact, and does not make me (or anyone that agrees with me) a "blithering idiot homer" as you’ve previously referred to me.

ESPN is not out to get Penn State. ESPN is out to report a story that is interesting, which I’m all for if it is based on factual evidence. The story that Penn State has X number of guys arrested in Y years is hardly a news story. My problem is how they used they used the facts to support their hypothesis.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Aug 6, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To clarify

X number of guys arrested in Y years is hardly a news story

It’s hardly a new news story, and OTL wold not have bothered simply rehashing those incidents that were previously reported on at length. Their goal was to prove those incidents had relevance beyond the actual incident.

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Aug 6, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Meridian incident

is what shows the change in the players – I can’t remember anything like that ever happening before. (No, it wasn’t “just a fight”; it was thuggery; gang-tactic stuff; the kind of thing that happened at Miami in the 1980s). The HUB fight, although more like a traditional idiot-filled rumpus, also had some of the same elements – a bunch of players ganging up together to beat down. Quite different for it to happen at the HUB than a small-scale fracas at a frat back in the day; and the fact that the big one involved breaking into a private residence and beating up people uninvolved in the first incident is also another huge thug marker.

ESPN obviously agreed that Meridian wasn’t “just a fight” and made it the centerpiece of their story. That’s what I would have done, too. And, yes, it provides circumstantial evidence that the character of recruits has changed.

by M1EK on Aug 6, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then why not run the story last August

when it might have been relevant?

For the Glory; National Champions 1982, 1986, 1994,

by jesse. on Aug 7, 2008 12:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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