The Legality Of A Pointed Finger

by Kevin HD on Sep 17, 2008 10:08 AM EDT in Football Comment 24 comments

Greenpoints_medium

I'm talking about celebration: the gestures displayed when good things happen. In the third quarter of last week's game against Syracuse, Stephfon Green ran two yards on a pitch to the right and scored a touchdown to make the score 44-6. He pointed at something. Penn State was penalized fifteen yards.

What exactly did Green do to trigger the penalty (and how exactly was he supposed to know he was doing this)? That is the issue I want to take a look at. Part of what makes college ball different from the NFL is that, at least in appearance, it's a more pure and innocent version of the game (again, appearance). That's fine, whatever.

What makes this questionable isn't the call on the field, or the fact that the new interpretation wasn't very well communicated in the offseason. The problem is that it's not being distributed consistently and so how in the world are the players suppose to know what the hell to think?

Green wasn't the only player pointing fingers last week:

So after pointing to the sky, twice, why was no flag thrown there? I'm not saying one was deserved, but how can you objectively distinguish what was done in the clip above and what Green was flagged for last weekend?

And at least Green waited until the play was over to start his "celebration", at Notre Dame, this defensive player hardly makes it inside the ten yard line before beginning his points.

Again, the "unsportsmanship" quality of that player is questionable, but we are talking about consistency here, not the merit of the rule.

Paterno was clearly unhappy when Stephfon returned to the sideline after the score, but what was the guilty party's response?

According to a quote from The Daily Orange:

"I just pointed up to God thanking Him for letting me score the touchdown," Green said after the game.

Well why did the refs calling the OSU-USC game not find the same action below "unsportsmanlike"?

Again, whether Green's act was or was not unsportsmanlike conduct isn't the discussion here. What makes this so confusing is the complete lack of consistency. When a kid scores a touchdown and wants to express some type of excitement, he has no idea what the rules allow. When Green went home on Saturday night and turned on ESPN, he saw over and over again that what he did was probably the exception rather than the rule. So does getting flagged for a penalty after pointing to the sky really help curb his actions? Or does it just make him bitter for being apparently singled out?

David Parry, the national coordinator for college football officiating, tried to help ESPN understand why the "ball toss" from week two ended up as a 15 yard penalty against Washington:

"I think what he meant is this was so obviously against the rule and flagrant you have no option but to throw a flag," Parry said.

Okay, that's fine. It was specifically stated in the rules. However, even when something as to the letter as that play occurs, Perry has this to add:

But even Parry conceded, "I think it's safe to say on emotional moments officials might become a little more lenient."

So depending on the emotional circumstances, refs can just ignore the rule? And what about actions like Green's, which aren't specifically spelled out in the rules but are made as judgment calls by officials? So now, instead of just determining if they meet some vague definition of "unsportsmanlike", that needs to be weighted against how much emotion is warranted for a specific situation?

This wouldn't be acceptable for any other penalty call ("the false start penalty was not called because, as you can see, it was really frickin loud down there"); why is it here? Besides random acts of increased enforcement, the national coordinator for college football officiating qualifies this new initiative by saying the rules can be completely ignored if they feel like it, depending on an emotional observation that I'm sure the players interpret differently than the officials.

I'm all for keeping celebrations to a minimum. Some of the antics in the NFL are total turn offs for a lot of us and my point isn't that the college game should allow more of that nonsense. My point is that the rules need to be totally clear, and consistently enforced, so that the players can figure out how to follow them.

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This is bureaucracy in action.

Over the years we have seen various rules come and go that have made no sense. One of my favorites was penalizing a team for too much home crowd noise. The NCAA is a bureaucracy and just like your local government or employer it has to arbitrarily change things on a yearly basis. This is clearly a horrible rule and is at the complete discretion of the refs as your fine examples have shown. It will be changed, I am just glad we got called for it against Syracuse and not a B10 opponent.

I don't know, Mello Yello is pretty awful. What's the worst that could happen?

by psu on Sep 17, 2008 10:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The Score

I think a large part of the reason Green got flagged was the score of the game. Penn State was up big when he scored, maybe the official felt sorry for Syrcause and though Green was showing up the team/fans.

They need to flag everyone or flag no one.

PSU Softball

by QBsneak12 on Sep 17, 2008 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Then it's inconsistent

If it’s the score, then Washington should not be flagged since it’s a close game, and USC should have been flagged when that player’s TD occurred when USC was already up by 18 points.

Please understand that I’m not attacking your opinion, I think you might be right. I’m just elaborating on it. If it’s the score, then how many points do you need to be ahead before getting penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct with, say, 8 minutes left in the 4th quarter? 4 points? 9 points? two touchdowns?

by Cairo on Sep 17, 2008 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I saw it again on DVR

The Ref had a big hard-on for Green the minute he got the TD. No sooner did Green break his stride then did the Ref run up and stand a few inches away from him as he stopped at the back of the endzone with his hand on his flag. The Ref (in my opinion) had already made the decision that Green would be flagged before Green even pointed. It took about 1 second from “the point” to the time the ref had the flag in the air.

The ref must have had a hard-on for some reason, and Green’s decision to do anything other than trot off the field was a penalty in his mind.

by millzners on Sep 17, 2008 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

exactly - although i'm not sure about the ref's excitement level

he had his hand on the flag immediately – it was more an excessive use of a yellow hankie than celebration.

As a blatant homer – i thought that the officiating was pretty biased throughout the game and that call was just a continuation.

I don’t think that Green should be “in trouble” for the call – he just needs to be aware that (especially when on a foreign field) the refs are looking for that this season.

Regardless, it is a unfairly subjective rule – and luckily for Penn State it had no bearing on the outcome of the game -

by PSUgirl on Sep 17, 2008 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Green

was probably talking trash the whole possession, that’s why the ref wanted to get him.

by gbd106 on Sep 17, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm.........

I could talk about this all day, but I won’t. I have no issue with him pointing a finger to the sky. Shouldn’t have been called from what I have read.

Eric Watters Atlanta, Ga.

by ech2os on Sep 17, 2008 11:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

no need for the rule

These rules are not needed. Instead, it is really just an interpretation of what is unsportsmanlike conduct. The rule is already in place.
Even with the rule in place it was a horrible call. PSUgirl, I also felt the ref-ing was poor in the game overall. PSU got the worst of it from my biased opinion.
Anyone recall the call against us during the Michigan game in the 90s…I think it was Todd Collins that begged a noice call and penalty.

Peter

by psuboy on Sep 17, 2008 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

In addition to being a lawyer

I’m also a referee

Let me tell you [a] pretty much all of the rules are subjective, or are least enforced that way and [b] a tremendous amount of emphasis is always placed on sportsmanship penalties, sportsmanship penalties are second only to safety related penalties..

I think that a big reason that the penalty was called was due to the perception that Penn State was running up the score. I thought the call was a non-issue at the time, and I argued yesterday that it wound up being a pretty harmless way for the team to learn a lesson, and strong warning from the officials that additional bullshit would not be tolerated from Penn State.

Second, the best way to get rid of bad rules is to enforce them rigidly. Then they look as stupid as they are. Although this rule is going nowhere.

Oh and Todd Collins was looking for a penalty because he was getting hit with snowballs by the Penn State student section. I will never understand how we avoided a flag in that game.

Finally, college football and high school football are played by generally the same rules. Sometimes certain penalties are (and should be called) at the college level to set an example for how penalties should be called at the high school level.

"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008

by jesse. on Sep 17, 2008 12:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think you're remembering the wrong um game

the one with the noise penalty was ‘93 the one with the snow was ’97 – and it was bob griese’s boy.

by PSUgirl on Sep 17, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point.

"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008

by jesse. on Sep 17, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

(the snow was 1996 though)

"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008

by jesse. on Sep 17, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not at Beaver Stadium

because they played in Ann Arbor (that woman of questionable morals) in 1996

by PSUgirl on Sep 17, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I remember the Mellon Bank

game buttons in the past for the home games…“Ann Arbor is a…” ( I’ll keep it clean Mike ) and leave it off!

All present back then remember what they said!

" We need MORE cowbell !"

by BlueWhiteLife on Sep 17, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're a lawyer and a referee?

Did you say to yourself, you know what, it turns out, people don’t hate lawyers as much as I thought they would. What other profession could I chose so I can be sure people hate me….Wait, I got it…

I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.

by spakajewia on Sep 17, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah...pretty much

"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008

by jesse. on Sep 17, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rule 9-2, Article 2

http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Football_Rulesadc982b5-03fb-4e27-828c-c2d26b95e6c1.pdf

You want to go to page 123 I believe.

2. After a score or any other play, the player in possession immediately
must return the ball to an official or leave it near the dead-ball spot.
This prohibits:
(a) Kicking, throwing, spinning or carrying (including off of the
field) the ball any distance that requires an official to retrieve it.
(b) Spiking the ball to the ground [Exception: A forward pass to
conserve time (Rule 7-3-2-d)].
© Throwing the ball high into the air.
(d) Any other unsportsmanlike act or actions that delay the game.

Article 1 discusses taunting via pointing, etc. Green obviously was pointing up, not at the Cuse players. However, I can not recall what Green did with the ball. If he didn’t toss it to the official, I could see some issue there.

pinkertonpark.com - you owe yerself a laugh.

by rahpsu92 on Sep 17, 2008 12:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He tossed it behind him

What he did was not blatant, and did not need to be called.

"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008

by jesse. on Sep 17, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i was at the wrong endzone

after green scored the touchdown all i saw was the penn state section freak out and since i dont have dvr is there any vidoe of this anywhere?

by Dmfsomething09 on Sep 17, 2008 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

its obvious

that the ref’s family was in attendance, and Green was blatantly pointing to them, in an effort to say “your family member’s officiating is sub-par today”

For the glory

by lionalum05 on Sep 17, 2008 12:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Week One

I remember Green saying after the Coastal Carolina game that he asked the official if he could have the ball after he scored his first career touchdown. The official told him no.

So after he scored his second touchdown he asked the official if he could keep that ball. The official told him no again. Green thought maybe he forgot.

I think the next four years of watching Mr. Green are going to be very entertaining. I love players like him who don’t act like robots. His quote back in the spring about wanting to run a 4.0 40 time was gold.

Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

by BSD on Sep 17, 2008 12:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

We made Dead Spin with this post.

PSU Softball

by QBsneak12 on Sep 17, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

THE RULE

sucks, and is not consistently enforced. However, if the kid did as he was coached he would have handed the ball to the referee and acted like he’d been there before. Frankly, having heard in the summer that this rule would be a point of emphasis this year. I truly believed that Derrick Williams would be the first to be penalized for pointing at the student section. Probably costing the team a game against Michigan.

by JIMPSU on Sep 17, 2008 7:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs