Big Ten Roundup
by BSD on Sep 25, 2008 6:34 AM EDT
in Roundtables
46 comments
It's Thursday, so let's take a look around the Big Ten blogosphere to see what's going on.
Ohio State
Let's start right in with the red meat with Buckeye Battle Cry, who says Penn State is overrated.
And if you want a little hint about whose schedule to question….try Penn State. They’ve played 11 ranked teams (26 percent of their total games) in the same time frame, and they’re only 6-5 in those games. Now there’s your overrated team.
I'm glad to see some commenters point out that Syracuse was coming off a 10-3 season when we signed that contract in 2002. It's not Penn State's fault Greg Robinson ran that program into the ground. And while Oregon State's loss to Stanford certainly took some luster off of our blowout win over the Beavers, let's keep in mind that OSU won nine games last year and ten games the year before. Last week they throttled Hawaii, who played in a BCS bowl last year if I remember correctly. Stanford is going to be pretty respectable this year, so perhaps we should let the season play out before we slap the "cupcake" label on the Beavers just yet.
Iowa
Good God, Iowa. Way to represent the conference. It's bad enough you lost an out of conference game, but did you have to lose to a Big East team? And why did it have to be Pitt? Black Heart Gold Pants examines what went wrong.
Minnesota
The Daily Gopher is feeling pretty good about Minnesota's 4-0 start.
Managing expectations becomes tricky now, but this team is much better than a year ago. The offense is effecient and is playing with a killer instinct. The defense isn't going to be confused with the 2007 Ohio State D, but we now have players who are Big Ten caliber, are able to break on the ball, are tackling better and are in position to make plays. The Big Ten will be different than Bowling Green and Montana State, nobody is predicting 12-0. But many of us thought 3-1 would have made for a successful non-conference portion of the schedule. 4-0 and improving is where we sit. Bring on the Big Ten so we can continue to show that this team is different and things are changing in coach Brewster's Gopher Nation.
Michigan
The college football blogosphere weeped when Yost hung up The M Zone for good this summer. Thankfully, an equally funny Michigan Blog came into its own around the same time. Do yourself a favor and go check out Wolverine Liberation Army. Bookmark it. Go there every day and enjoy reading stuff like this.
The truth, comrades, is that the enemy Irish committed suicide at the walls of our offensive and defensive lines. When we attacked, they retreated, when we pounded the ball with Grady and threw the ball with Threet, they retreated even deeper. As we called off the dogs and allowed them to escape the field intact, the evil liar Charlie Weis, showing the wounds of battle himself, took to the press microphones for propaganda purposes.
Indiana
The poor Hoosiers. They had high hopes of building on their first bowl game in a hundred years last season. But then they fell to Ball State this weekend, and now reality is setting in.
One one level, I and most IU fans knew that this Hoosier team was unproven, with James Hardy gone on the offensive side and without Tracy Porter and Leslie Majors on the defensive side (obviously those guys really were missed against Ball State). On the other hand, I think most suspected that IU would be about on par with last year's team, at least in terms of record. Now, we have to face the possibility that after the fun of last year and all the promise it presented, we could be taking a huge step back, or at least hitting a big pothole. We can't beat a single Big Ten opponent with an effort like the Hoosiers produced last night.
Purdue
The guys at Boiled Sports really hate Notre Dame. I mean they really really REALLY hate Notre Dame. See for yourself.
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Penn State is over rated
The PSU schedule is and has been soft. Oregon State was schedule knowing that the front 7 on defense would be gone. It wasn’t like that game was added 6 years ago. Syracuse is forgiveable because who knew they’d be that bad? Temple though is not. No one ever expects Temple to be good. And they are always on the schedule.
So clearly Penn State is over rated.
However, they won’t be after beating Illinois this week.
by DrDetroit on Sep 25, 2008 8:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Depends on your perception
and definition of the word “overrated.” Sure, we played a soft schedule, but it was by no means the softest — 2 BCS teams (which is more than a lot of B10 schools can say) and, yes, a 1-AA cupcake (which, a majority of B10 had on their schedules, too). I don’t think a schedule necessarily makes you overrated. Untested? Perhaps. That could be a fair assessment.
Penn State is clearly not overrated because it went out and did what it was supposed to do the first four games — win, and handily so. Sure, the matchup looked lopsided 3 out of 4 times, but you know what? We won when it was expected of us, and sometimes even exceeded expectations. We didn’t go out and need fourth quarter heroics against a (now) 0-4 MAC team or get throttled 35-3 on the road against, yes, an elite west coast team that we matched up better with on paper.
It would be one thing if we struggled to put away Syracuse, but we did what was expected of us, and then some. I can’t consider that overrated at this point.
by tomatpsu on Sep 25, 2008 9:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who was Dropped to add Oregon State?
I thought it was some other FCS cupcake. Arkansas State or something?
That leads to a little problem. In 2006 Penn State could easily guess Syracuse would be bad. So Penn State could have worked on changing that game to a better team in the Big East. Or to just about any other team in the FBS.
I really do wish Penn State would have a home and home with Florida State before the Legends retire.
by DrDetroit on Sep 25, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Oregon St dropped Utah. It was a lose-lose for them
by blogue20 on Sep 25, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sort of
instead of paying utah they booked a flight and took home a check for $1.2 million.
Kevin @ Black Shoe Diaries
by Kevin HD on Sep 25, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They got a paycheck for 1.2 mil and a beating
Or they could have still taken a home loss and paid Utah but still brought in the revenue from a home game. I wonder what a place like Oregon St pulls in per home game, tickets + the extras. What does PSU make in revenue for each home game? Not that its worth my time to look up. From a financial standpoint I wonder which was the better deal for them.
by blogue20 on Sep 25, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't quote me
But I think PSU brings in about 5 million a game.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on Sep 25, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I've heard that same figure
I bleed Blue and White.
by Horse N Buggy on Sep 25, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry but incorrect
Oregon State dropped an away game versus Idaho — most likely a win — to play at PSU. They still have a game at Utah on the schedule (they play next week there).
by Laaaaazzz on Sep 25, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah
I thought I had remembered hearing Utah. I’m sure the Vandals were pissed.
by blogue20 on Sep 25, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate when Vandals get pissed
always seems to come back around in the way of property destruction.
Convivite Nudem!
by jtothep on Sep 25, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The logic in that OSU post
is funny to me. It’s also funny that he picked on PSU when there are probably 6 or 7 other big ten teams with softer OOC schedules. A soft schedule could lead to a team being over-rated, but you can hardly say “hey, they’ve only played 11 ranked teams the last three years, clearly that makes them the most over-rated team in the league”.
Kevin @ Black Shoe Diaries
by Kevin HD on Sep 25, 2008 9:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also, you need to use their final ranking.
Kevin @ Black Shoe Diaries
by Kevin HD on Sep 25, 2008 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What you need to do
Is discuss the teams OSU ACTUALLY scheduled.
Not talk about the games that were scheduled by the Big Ten and claim OSU has a tough schedule.
That moron acts like Ohio State chose to play Michigan in 06 because they were good. Wow, what a shock. The Ohio State Michigan game ended the season. Just like every other year since like what, 1912? Holy crap, Penn State is on the schedule as well. Good choice Ohio State! Oh wait, by rule the Big Ten is required to put PSU on your schedule. Oh, well then no cookie for you!
Ohio State does need to add a second team to their schedule. They could even stay in Ohio and add Cincy. You can’t have 3 cupcakes and claim to play a tough schedule.
by DrDetroit on Sep 25, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Overrated?
Ohio State fan: Penn State is overrated
Penn State fan: That makes two of us.
The Ohio State fans are drowning in criticism, they are just looking to put it off on somebody else.
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
by jesse. on Sep 25, 2008 9:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
The scary thing is I woudl absolutely expect an Ohio State fan to recognize an over rated team when they saw one.
If I were an OSU fan, I would just shut up until the Buckeyes beat somebody. 2002 is almost 6 years in the past. For the most part, with the exception of the Miami game in 2002 (which people will still debate) over the last 30 years anytime OSU has played a name program in a bowl they have lost.
Especially with all the talent they supposedly have.
Eric Watters Atlanta, Ga.
by ech2os on Sep 25, 2008 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Terry Porter
I’ll still gladly debate the 02 Miami game with my buckeye friends. That is, if they’re really interested in giving me a fresh opportunity to say the words Maurice Clarett or Terry Porter.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/2002/bowls/news/2003/01/03/closer_look/
Convivite Nudem!
by jtothep on Sep 25, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buckeye Battlecry
Many OSU fans are on the defensive right now, but I don’t hear many people saying Ohio St. doesn’t schedule top-notch competition. A home and home with Texas and USC alone gives them immediate clemency from the “soft schedule” argument. However, using the Big 10 schedule and bowl games as games that OSU has “scheduled” is a weak argument, especially when using it to say that PSU “schedules” only weak teams.
Playing “ranked” teams in Big 10 play boils down to where teams stand at that time. It has nothing to do with scheduling. For example, last year OSU played Michigan and Purdue when they were ranked. Penn State played both, but they weren’t ranked at the time. So counting raw number of games against “ranked” teams makes no sense.
Using Buckeye Battelcry’s four year window (which is also suspect when making an argument…why four years?), here are Penn State’s and Ohio State’s games that were actually “scheduled” by an AD:
OSU: Texas (x2), USC, Youngstown St. (x2), Bowling Green, Miami (OH), San Diego St., Northern Illinois, Cincy, Akron, Washington, Kent State, Ohio, Troy
PSU: South Florida, Central Michigan, Cincy, Akron, Youngstown St., Temple (x3), FIU, Buffalo, Coastal Carolina, Oregon St., Syracuse, Notre Dame (x2)
While it turned out that OSU’s scheduling is more top heavy, PSU’s attempts with Notre Dame, Oregon St. and Syracuse are on par with what OSU was trying to do.
Sorry, end rant. What a dumb argument.
by Kunk on Sep 25, 2008 9:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OSU Making Excuses Already?
Agree w/ Kunk, OSU’s top 3 OOC games certainly outweigh ours, but beyond that? Maybe OSU’s OOC actually looks weaker??
PLUS, the Buckeyes are always seen as the “flag bearers” of the conference and the “class of the BigTen,” who in recent years have dismantled the rest of us. Shouldn’t they have a tougher OOC schedule? I mean they are the Buckeyes afterall, right? One loss and Columbus is shouting “hey, look at the rest of the conference” in vain. . . For shame OSU, FOR SHAME!
by The IC Lion on Sep 25, 2008 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the same thing
Who is saying OSU schedules soft competition? In recent years they played Texas and they have taken west coast trips to Washington and USC. I’ve never said they schedule easy competition before. If there is a knock, it’s that they take the “One stud and three cupcakes” to the extreme going after teams like YSU, Kent State, and Ohio. I kind of like how Penn State is going after middle of the pack BCS teams but trying to get multiples of them. You pay a little more, but getting an Oregon State to agree to a one-and-done is a lot better than bringing in another Buffalo or Coastal Carolina.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on Sep 25, 2008 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whic is it?
I just think it’s funny that they use Penn State to validate their schedule, then say that Penn State is overrated. Which is it?
by Spats on Sep 25, 2008 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's not forget
but if I recall correctly, we originally had Alabama scheduled for a home & home for 2007-2008, but that got pushed back til 2010-2011 (which I think was a request by Alabama?).
Let’s also not forget the ESPN analysis of teams that schedule BCS/non-BCS teams.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=formidable/080905
(granted a lot of our BCS teams have been low in their respective conferences).
I wouldn’t ever say that OSU doesn’t go out there with an “any team, any time” mentality, but Penn State has been pretty good at having at least one quality out of conference game a year. (does anyone know a good place to look at past schedules & results?) Just because those teams lately have been having poor seasons the years we play them isn’t our fault.
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 25, 2008 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I spent hours with this thing the first time I found it
It’s awesome: query historical results
scroll down and click on "Head-to-head historical records of any two teams ", that’s the best part.
Kevin @ Black Shoe Diaries
by Kevin HD on Sep 25, 2008 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alabama series
“but if I recall correctly, we originally had Alabama scheduled for a home & home for 2007-2008, but that got pushed back til 2010-2011 (which I think was a request by Alabama?).”
The moving of the Alabama series seems to be a convenient rallying poin for folks who want to defend our OOC scheduling, but this is totaly wrong. The games against Alabama were originally scheduled for 2004-5, being replaced by Central Florida in 2004 and Cincinnati in 2005.
by Laaaaazzz on Sep 25, 2008 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
you seem to be right. I looked and could only quickly find references to 2004-2005 (though that would have helped our OOC 2005 scheduling a bit).
I would have sworn it was set for 2007-2008…perhaps the original postponement date? Or I could just be on crack. I just recall in the summer of 2005 scheduling to go down to visit friends at ’Bama for the game, and they were gonna come up here, for the 2007/2008 series, but then feeling let down.
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 25, 2008 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Past quality OOC teams scheduled in last 10 seasons
1999: Arizona (#3 at the time?) & Miami (also high, but I forget exactly what)
2000: USC
2001: Miami, Virginia
2002: Nebraska, Virginia
2003: Boston College, Nebraska
2004: Boston College
2005:ok, ok, you got us there
2006: Notre Dame
2007: Notre Dame
2008: Oregon State (not too bad, though not looking great this year), Syracuse (yeah, Syracuse has sucked lately, but not when we put them on the schedule)
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 25, 2008 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2005
South Florida was a fine team – and very much under rated when PSU played them. This ignorance led many a PSU fan (okay, me) to doubt the potential of the MRob offense – doubts that persisted until (and yes, I’m going to mention it again) – the 4th quarter of the Northwestern game.
You can not list ‘07 nd as a quality opponent – you just can’t.
by PSUgirl on Sep 25, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not quality at the time, correct
But I was looking at quality of the teams (historically) as we scheduled them. It wasn’t like we looked at ND a few years ago when we were scheduling them and saying “that ND team is gonna be a cupcake, let’s schedule them!”. The AD looked at them as a likely top quality team. That’s why I said it isn’t our fault that certain teams have decided to pack it in during the seasons we played them.
Also, yes, South Florida WAS a good team, and still is, and was underrated, but when we scheduled them, I have a feeling that the AD figured it would be a nice cupcake to pad the stats. That’s why I left them off of the “quality teams we’ve scheduled” list.
Sure, there are teams on there that aren’t “elite” programs, and some that have been downright lousy in recent years, but when you schedule them it is a crapshoot as to how they’ll be in a future season. Heck, pre-season rankings are lousy enough as is, so I would never put stock in “4 years prior to the season” rankings
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 25, 2008 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the list of good teams we've played OOC since 1999
I did not take into account anything other than record to determine good, they had to win 8 games to make the list.
2006 Notre Dame (10-3) L
2004 Boston College (9-3) L
2003 Boston College (8-5) L
2003 Nebraska (10-3) L
2001 Miami (12-0) L
2000 Toledo (10-1) L
1999 Miami (9-4) W
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
by jesse. on Sep 25, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know what
I missed one.
2002 Virginia (9-5) W
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
by jesse. on Sep 25, 2008 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate to bring this up.
Toledo finished in the Top 25 in the middle of the Bad Years when PSU played them.
by Cairo on Sep 25, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My favorite site for historical PSU data
http://www.nittanyanthology.com/One_Page_Reviews.html
Horrendous 1996 web design, great info about game results, starters, stats, redshirts, etc.
Yes, Alabama rescheduled when they realized their team was horrible.
The one thing that irritates me is PSU’s reluctance to play on the road. In the past five years PSU has played at Syracuse, Virginia, Nebraska, Notre Dame, and Boston College. Good teams, but a bit uninspired.
Meanwhile Ohio State has criss-crossed the country playing teams like Washington, Texas and USC on the road. People also gloss over Wisconsin and its decision to step up and play anywhere. The Badgerbadgers have played at Fresno State, North Carolina, Hawaii, Arizona, and West Virginia in the same timeframe. What’s frustrating is PSU’s future schedule is uninspired aside from the Alabama series. Virginia again? Temple another 13 times? Snore.
by Cairo on Sep 25, 2008 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely agree
Look at the teams with the “play anywhere, any time” philosophy, and they tend to be the best teams around. Who knows if this is a chicken and the egg type of thing (are they good because they pump themselves up and have the confidence to play anywhere, because they get more exposure & thus more recruits, or are they willing to play anywhere because they are just that good?)
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 25, 2008 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Play Anywhere Any Time
How many of those teams are there? Most teams just schedule one good OOC opponent and then fill up the home schedule with weak ones. The teams you might consider PAAT teams, like USC, Florida State, Miami, Notre Dame, have very weak conferences or no conference and have to look for better competition elsewhere if they want to make the BCS.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on Sep 25, 2008 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really, it's two lines of thought.
The Pat Hill Philosophy
Any place, any time. Get us in the public eye and win meaningful OOC games. We set ourselves up for a national championship, even if we lose a game provided it’s close.
The Bill Snyder Philosophy
Get a win, any win. People will forget our weak non-con in November, and we set ourselves up for national championship on the basis of the strength of our conference. Nothing looks better than a zero in the loss column, so let’s increase our chances by scheduling cupcakes. As an added bonus, more home games equals more money.
Tim Curley/JoePa are looking more like advocates of the Bill Snyder school these days.
by Cairo on Sep 25, 2008 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pat Hill
…doesn’t have to play Ohio State, Michigan or Wisconsin in his league either. Hill’s scheduling practice is brought on by necessity. Who the hell would watch Fresno State on TV unless they were playing somebody good?
Bill Snyder needed to get his teams ranked and bowl eligible to convince kids they could come to K-State and win games. At which point it worked, they started beating teams like Nebraska, Texas and Oklahoma and actually got one win away from a national title game.
Say what you want about the competing philosophies, But Bill Snyder’s worked. I’ve been hearing the same crap about how tough Pat Hill’s teams are, and it merits discussion that they have never even won their league since he’s been the coach. That doesn’t have a damn thing to do with OOC scheduling.
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
by jesse. on Sep 25, 2008 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PSU used to have the Pat Hill philosophy
when Engle and Paterno were building the team – they would play just about anyone – and we would travel. That’s why there’s a Fiesta Bowl today.
But now we’re the team that the Pat Hills want to schedule.
by PSUgirl on Sep 25, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The original OSU post
Honestly, I don’t really get it. There are numerous logical problems with it, to wit:
1. As has already been mentioned, you have to use final rankings to actually get an accurate assessment of the team strength. It’s already been pointing out that there are situation where (using his example teams) tOSU and PSU have played the exact same teams in th exact same years and during one game the opposing team has been ranked and in te other they are unranked. If it’s the exact same team, how can they count as “ranked” for tOSU but not for PSU (and vice versa)
2. PSU has finished ~#25 in the last two years in the polls. In 2005, they finished #3. Given those performances, you’d probably expect PSU to have want a slight majority of their games against ranked foes during the last three season… and they’ve gone 6-5 (apparently). Isn’t that basically performing about as you’d expect? Maybe if PSU had finished in the top 10 every year, he’d have a point of us being overrated, but wouldn’t you expect a borderline ranked team to lose its fair share of games to ranked opponents?
3. I don’t really get the jump in brining up PSU there anyway. Is there some sportswriters who are proclaiming that PSU constantly has played tougher schedules that tOSU? Why is he calling out sportswriters about PSU? If anything, the recent griping by sportswriters about PSU is that we “haven’t played anyone” despite playing 2 BCS teams out of 4 teams in our OCC schedule, which is more than many teams can say.
by Laaaaazzz on Sep 25, 2008 10:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also, remember the quirks in the in-conference schedule.
Penn State did not play Northwestern & Minnesota last year, which finished 10th and 11th in the Big Ten. In fact PSU has not played 5 squads that finished 10th or lower in the past 5 years (Illinois 2003, Illinois 2004, Iowa 2005).
In the same timeframe Wisconsin has missed the team that finished 1st or 2nd in the Big Ten (Michigan 2003 & 2004, Ohio State 2005 & 2006).
by Cairo on Sep 25, 2008 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OREGON STATE 27 - USC 21
ummm . . . what was that comment about overrated by someone associated with an OSU that got their jocks handed to them by USC? Was it something about a weak OOC lineup?
"the secret to loving your job is having a hobby that you really despise"
by nitwit86 on Sep 26, 2008 12:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Suddenly
Our cupcake schedule has a little fiber to it.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on Sep 26, 2008 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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