What Would Caesar Do? Or, The Great Debate Part One
There's not much action to watch right now, but to get this long wait off on the right foot I sat down with your friend and mine, Hawkeye State from BHGP, to talk about, well, I'll give you three guesses. The second half, linked at the bottom, is over at their place:
Hawkeye State: So I'm assuming we're going to be discussing the reasons Ceasar was so successful in his campaign against the Gallic tribes in the First Century B.C., right? I mean, there's nothing going on between our schools right now...
Kevin HD: That's a great place to start. You know the Gallic Wars never would have happened had Ceasar not been in so much gluttonous debt back in Rome. Oh, speaking of glutton and money, the BCS.
Let's do this backwards: Why does Penn State absolutely deserve a bid over Iowa? And remember: Godfather Paterno is watching you.

HS: Penn State absolutely deserves a bid over Iowa because I don't want to die. I'm half expecting the Iowa football offices to receive a package containing a fish wearing Ken O'Keefe's windbreaker.
There is little doubt that, when you're allowed to consider margin of victory, Penn State's performance against the soft underbelly of the Big Ten was considerably more impressive than Iowa's. Penn State smashed Michigan and Northwestern on the road; Iowa squeaked by Big Blue and lost to jNWU at home. That's to say nothing for the recent results against Indiana and Michigan State, both more impressive than Iowa's. Throw in the fact that PSU has won seven of their last eight (one more than my Hawkeyes), and that the allegedly hideous group of cupcakes the Nittany Lions played in out-of-conference turning out slightly better than expected, and Penn State's resume matches up favorably with Iowa's. It's so bad that Cedar Rapids AP voter (and friend of the BHGP) Mike Hlas put Penn State above Iowa in his poll this week.
Of course, all of this means nothing. If Penn State gets a BCS bid over Iowa, it's because they put 110,000 butts in the seats every week, have a larger national alumni network, and are a bigger draw on television. It looks like both of the two BCS bowls in play (Orange and Fiesta) are going to have at least one "small-market" team (one of TCU, Boise State, and Cincinnati). Under those circumstances, both bowl committees have to be terrified of their prestigious bowl looking like the ACC Championship Game to the 15 people watching at home. Iowa is a good draw for this reason; Penn State is even better.
Now shower us with praise, or Adrian Clayborn will block your face and return it for a touchdown.
KHD: Well, as they once famously said in Texas:

Sure there is more gray than that, but Penn State fans can't mock the patheticness that is Ohio State's claim to "five straight conference championships" and deny the importance of head-to-head.
Iowa is also getting hurt by the humans for timing, which is dumb. Rearrange the losses and Iowa is sitting ahead of Penn State in every single human and computer poll out there.
And really, while the Northwestern loss is a disappointment, the Wildcats are tied for fourth in the conference standings with Wisconsin, who they just beat. Penn State lacks a loss outside the top 15, but jNW isn't exactly jEastern Illinois.
Penn State will almost certainly make a bowl more money, but you could argue it's marginal in Arizona and outweighed by the 5% of football the bowls actually care about.
Is that right, 5%? Will football actually have anything to do with this decision, and should it?
HS: You're right on Northwestern being better than many considered, but -- and I'm not doing this as a dig to Northwestern fans -- the voters generally see them as just Northwestern. To them, regardless of what happens afterwards, a BCS team doesn't lose to Northwestern under any circumstance (in fact, Northwestern has never beaten a team to get a BCS berth). So while jNWU finished a respectable fourth in the conference, it doesn't really matter to the perceptions of those who make the decisions.
You're also right with your 5% estimate: A scintilla of what goes into bowl selection is actually football-based and, given the current scheme, that's probably the way it should be. If we were actually attempting to crown a national champion rather than make money for the Big Six conferences, we would have a selection committee and playoff. As it is, the conferences make money when the bowls make money, and the more the bowls make, the more there is for everyone. It's why bowl reps spend all their time in the parking lots and luxury boxes, rather than actually watching the game. And for the record, Iowa is probably the school that can least complain about the bowls ignoring the on-field results; twice in the last 4 years (Michigan in 2005, Northwestern last year), the Outback Bowl jumped Iowa ahead of teams who had equal records and beat them in head-to-head competition because Iowa fans travel better. This might be a case of payback as the proverbial bitch.
I don't know enough about Penn State's fan base to comment intelligently on who would bring more money to Tempe, but Iowa is a state full of landowners, and Arizona is now a state full of former Iowa landowners who like the dry heat. There's a lot of old money backing the Hawkeyes in the desert. It might be our only trump card if it becomes an Iowa vs. Penn State Fiesta Bowl Throwdown.
I'm not nearly as worked up about this as most, I think. As a lifelong Iowa fan, I've always had that traditional mentality of Rose Bowl or Bust (I don't know if that mentality exists at PSU, what with their relatively recent induction into the BXI). If we're not playing for a national championship or on January 1 in Pasadena, I'm not that interested in which January game gets us. It's not like the Fiesta Bowl is steeped in tradition and majesty, after all, and I'd just as soon smack down the SEC again on a day where I don't have to be at work and in a game not televised on Fox. I guess the question is, when the BCS lucre is distributed evenly throughout the conference, does it really matter which game we play?
You want more over at BHGP...read the second half.
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The more this gets discussed the less I get it.
If the Iowa fans want me to admit they should go to the BCS instead of Penn State because of the head to win, fine. I admit it.
Now explain to me why Iowa gets to go over 12-0 Boise State. What if Pitt wins out? How do they beat out 11-1 Cincinatti? Screw it, what if Pitt goes 10-2? Iowa’s win over us in September is so damn impressive they get to go over Pitt? That’s simply bullshit. You know how Iowa gets the BCS bid in that situation? The same way we get it over them, by bringing more fans and TV ratings.
Iowa wants to talk about a head to win versus Penn State, then ride their fan base to the BCS over other, more deserving teams. Just like us, the only difference is our argument is consistent.
I say let's rock the Orange Bowl, because nobody will remember in five years anyway.
Calm Down
And read out loud Boise State’s schedule.
Of course I'm home. I'm always home. I'm uncool.
by WestPointLion on Nov 25, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
No, their 12-0 and they have a win over the presumed Pac10 champs.
If wins, losses and deserving matter, Penn State and Iowa are both out. If they don’t one of us gets to go, but it has little to nothing to do with our football teams and everything to do with tradition and fan base.
I’m totally comfortable with that. If Iowa gets the bid, good for them. But it won’t be fair, it will just be, at best, slightly more fair.
I say let's rock the Orange Bowl, because nobody will remember in five years anyway.
Boise is looking to be a victim of bad timing.
Most years, 12-0 gets the Broncos to the big party. It’s just that this year TCU picked out a sexier 12-0 gown.
Of course I'm home. I'm always home. I'm uncool.
by WestPointLion on Nov 25, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
your argument is invalid
because you said “their” instead of “they’re”
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Yea. I saw that about a second after I posted it.
Disregard away.
I say let's rock the Orange Bowl, because nobody will remember in five years anyway.
F Boise
They beat Oregon. Neat. Purdue beat Ohio State. Washington beat USC. Upsets happen.
But when your upcoming matchup against f-ing Nevada is your big test, I don’t feel sorry if you get left out.
"upsets happen"
well, if/when you are 12-0, they apparently didn’t happen to you
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
"upsets happen"
well, if/when you are 12-0, they apparently didn’t happen to you
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
"upsets happen"
well, if/when you are 12-0, they apparently didn’t happen to you
We have little tranquility but tons of tranquilizers.
by mikeissurreal on Nov 25, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Shush you
'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'
by Pete the Streak on Nov 25, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
There's an old saying I heard somewhere
Upsets do happen, but if/when you are 12-0, they apparently didn’t happen to you
by Screen Name 20 on Nov 27, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Bingo!
"I thought the kid we were using had the potential to be a good quarterback, and I blew that one." - Joseph V. Paterno
by leeharvey418 on Nov 25, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Correct
for either us, or Iowa. Neither of us “deserve” it.
I say let's rock the Orange Bowl, because nobody will remember in five years anyway.
I may be wrong,
but I think that the Iowa fans that are using the head-to-head bit are fans that believe that the money is a wash. Hawkeye fans have built a reputation as great bowl travelers. Thus, if both fanbases travel well and both are likely to generate large sums of money in Arizona/Florida, then the “tiebreaker,” in their eyes, is the head-to-head game.
by The Mexican't on Nov 25, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Don't we?
The rules are simple, you need to be in the BCS top 14 to earn a BCS bid (unless you’re an automatic qualifier, think FSU 2005). Both PSU and Iowa have done that.
Do I think we should make it there over TCU/Boise/Iowa? Nope. If we WERE to get picked, would I complain? Nope. We satisfy the requirements, and are being rewarded for playing successful football for a long period of time. It is what it is.
"We heard all that talk all week about the SEC and their speed, but we knew personally that they weren't nearly as tough as us."
-Tony Hunt
I actually agree with you
I say let's rock the Orange Bowl, because nobody will remember in five years anyway.
There's room for both Iowa/PSU and Boise
There isn’t room for all of OkSt, Cincy/Pitt, Iowa/PSU, and Boise. OkSt shouldn’t go ahead of either Big Ten team (the Big XII is freakin’ terrible this year outside of Texas). Cincy at 11-1 has an argument if they lose to Pitt, but I don’t think Pitt at 10-2 (with a loss to Cincy) has much of a case compared to Iowa or PSU either.
Amen.
What are we really arguing about? Fox and college football go together like mothers-in-law and good holiday conversation.
I’ll take my Jan 1st Bowl, a helping of unhealthy food and beer, and chance to Zug levitate all over OMGSECSPEED.
Of course I'm home. I'm always home. I'm uncool.
Interesting point....
Do Penn State fans care more about the Rose Bowl than any other BCS bowl?
Being new to the Big Ten, I don’t think we have the fascination with the Rose Bowl that the rest of the Big Ten does. Our historical glory has been made in the Fiesta Bowl, Sugar Bowl, and Orange Bowl (1994 aside, but that brings more bitterness than glory). I would definitely argue that we value the other BCS bowls as much, if not more, than the Rose Bowl.
WE ARE.......PENN STATE!
Valueing the Rose Bowl over other games that are just as good
is a trait that needs to get beat out of the Big Ten.
I say let's rock the Orange Bowl, because nobody will remember in five years anyway.
Yeah I don't get some of his comments
About the Orange and Fiesta Bowls. Would the images from the 83 Sugar Bowl and 87 Fiesta Bowl mean more if they were at the Rose Bowl?
Not what I meant...
….I meant that since we have no been a lifelong member of the Big Ten, we do not value the Rose Bowl as much like other members of the Big Ten.
Most of our PSU history in bowls took place in other bowls and therefore we may value all BCS bowls the same.
Obviously getting to the Rose Bowl means you had a pretty good season, but as long as we are playing in a BCS bowl that is fine with me. It does not have to be the Rose Bowl.
WE ARE.......PENN STATE!
Amen
"No, Donny, these men are nihilists. There's nothing to be afraid of"
by psu in the w-b on Nov 25, 2009 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
It's awesome
The players get to carry around roses in their teeth after smearing MSU, that right there makes it a worthy goal every year. And basically they get to go to a sunnier version of New Jersey.
A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice.
Bill Cosby
6-0 in the Fiesta Bowl, 4-1 in the Orange Bowl under JoePa.
That’s a lot of good memories. It would be lunacy to disregard them or consider them secondary to a Rose Bowl.
1-3 in the Capital One Bowl, by the way.
Rose Bowl's got it goin' on from a fan's view.
1. It’s actually played on New Year’s day (except when booted by NFL overlords).
2. 4:45 Eastern is a perfect kick-off time: hangover gone; working on another
3. No other game in that slot
4. Usually perfect weather
5. ABC broadcast (i.e. no Thom Brennaman or Brian Billick)
Of course I'm home. I'm always home. I'm uncool.
by WestPointLion on Nov 25, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
The Rose Bowl to us really just doesn't seem to hold anywhere near the weight as it does to the rest of the Big 10
perhaps because we won it in our second year in the conference, and that was a “disappointing” end of season result for us (not going to the Rose Bowl, as that’s the only place we could go, but the fact that we didn’t win the MNC).
Of course it took another 14 years to get back, but by this point the Rose is no longer the “big” bowl. The MNC is, and the Rose is a consolation prize. Add to that the fact that for most recent years, the opponent has been the NFL farm team, and it loses even more luster.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that to most Penn State fans the Rose bowl just isn’t that big of a deal. I wish the Rose bowl would cut the ties to the Big 10 and the Pac 10 and let any team play in it. I think that all bowls should cut ties with conferences. We would be able to look at more possible match ups. The only way Pitt and Penn State could play in a bowl is in the MNC game and no where else.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." -Joe Paterno
not true
since depending on the season results we could match up in a BCS game where their tie-in went to the MNC game (such as the Fiesta bowl this year)
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
The goal of the Penn State program
is to win National Championships. Nothing else, including the Rose Bowl, is prized as highly. Unless we have a shot to be #1, the Rose Bowl is “settling” for this program.
The goal of many Big Ten teams is simply to get to the Rose Bowl. Not sure if that’s the case for OSU or UM, but seems to be for the rest of them.
I could care less about the Rose Bowl
I still don’t feel like we’re actually part of the Big XI. It’s like we’re the friend that gets invited to the family Thanksgiving dinner. Everyone is a little uncomfortable with the friend’s presence, no one moreso than the friend himself. We haven’t been part of the family long enough to learn to care about the Rose Bowl. At least, I haven’t.
Do I know what rhetorical means?
Rose Bowl...
It isn’t any more important to me than any other BCS bowl. The rest of the Big Ten can have it.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
by Esteban d' Amur on Nov 25, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Rose Bowl or Bust
As a PSU fan, and B10-opponent, I’d like to say the Rose Bowl may be my least favorite BCS bowl. I just don’t care. “Oh the tradition and majesty and all the glory…” Whatever. That’s B10 blue-hair talk. That’s the talk of people who will never respect or accept PSU as a B10 school — people who think b/c we’re new to the conference we don’t have any tradition or history. People who think “The Game” still means something, or that anyone cares anymore. I hate those people, and I definitely hate the B10.
So that’s my take on it…
"We hugged as grown men do. It was a great moment. Then, it was business as usual." -- LJ Sr.
by millzners on Nov 25, 2009 1:22 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
^this
Never mistake effort for achievement.
by Esteban d' Amur on Nov 25, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
+1
"No, Donny, these men are nihilists. There's nothing to be afraid of"
by psu in the w-b on Nov 25, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
Are you kidding me?
We always do well against the SEC. Same for Iowa. We always do well against moronic and reckless coaches. Same for Iowa.
I would love to see Ferentz versus a Miles or a Nutt because he is the total opposite of those two wackos.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Nov 25, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
I meant this year
Think we would have trouble, more than usual
by Mr. Rosewater on Nov 25, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
LSU would be tough but we could take them, and Ole Miss’s “BLITZ EVERYONE” defense can be adjusted for.
Iowa would do the same thing they did to South Carolina. Like I said, Ferentz would pwn those two idiot “riverboat gamblers”. Helps that Iowa is better.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Nov 25, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
My choices
1. Orange against Ga Tech (I agree with Kevin that would be a sick matchup)
2. Orange against Clemson
3. Cap One against LSU
4. Cap One against Ole Miss
5. Fiesta against TCU or Boise
The eyes

and a sweet hullstache.
A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice.
Bill Cosby
by psu on Nov 25, 2009 1:34 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
How am I the first to rec this?
"We heard all that talk all week about the SEC and their speed, but we knew personally that they weren't nearly as tough as us."
-Tony Hunt
They take me for granted.....
Just like my wife. But at least you guys don’t hit me.
A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice.
Bill Cosby
What would Caesar do?
Caesar would conquer Gaul because he had great engineers, overthrow a weakening republic, rule as a dictator, and get all kinds of respect from future generations because he had great one-liners.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
Here is another thing
The Fiesta Bowl wants Iowa orthodoxy, no matter how sound, is generally accepted because it was in Mandell’s column last week. Same deal with the Penn State Orange Bowl line [that and the bowl rep fellatio from Saturday].
His mailbag today, reiterates something that he’s also been pretty consistent about; if Oklahoma State wins on Saturday the Fiesta Bowl is taking them.
If you assume he’s right, we already know the answer to the question.
I say let's rock the Orange Bowl, because nobody will remember in five years anyway.
Did anyone else expect a Little Caesar's Pizza Bowl discussion here?
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
Don't care about the Rose Bowl any more than other major bowls.
Don’t really care about the Big Ten, either.
Twitter: @scrappled
"When it’s third-and-10, you can take the milk drinkers and I’ll take the whiskey drinkers every time" - Max McGee
by Run Up The Score on Nov 25, 2009 2:11 PM EST reply actions
I'm kinda with you, Leather
I don’t get too worked up about bowl games. It’s out of our (Penn State’s) hands. We’ll go where we get invited and we’ll play whoever we get matched up against. It is what it is.
But I do care about the Big Ten. Probably more so than winning the National Championship. The rules that define the Big Ten champ are pretty clear. The best record wins. It’s something you can control. Just win your games and you are the champ. But with the National Championship, you could win all your games, but some voter and a computer could still say you’re not worthy. So I don’t put much stock in it.
At the end of the day, I think our goal every year should be to win the Big Ten. Do that every year, and from time to time you are bound to get a shot at the whole thing.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
Mike - that's an All Cliche Post 2009 Right There
“It is what it is.”
“At the end of the day.”
All we need is a “moving forward,” and you would’ve hit the Trifecta.
You feelin’ all right, buddy? Something you’re not telling us? We’re all counting on you down the home stretch here, ya’ know.
Of course I'm home. I'm always home. I'm uncool.
by WestPointLion on Nov 25, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
he’s taking it one cliche day at a time.
forgot to mention “smash mouth football” as well.
by Mr. Rosewater on Nov 25, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
ah the Big 10 conference
the same conference that was the result of 2 games away from having 4 champions. So clear cut and defined ;-)
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
Apathy rules the day
At least until tip off, dirty Sacred Heart. I don’t see anything too sacred about them or their hearts.
A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice.
Bill Cosby
For what it's worth
Our team, i think most people thought we had a chance at playing in the MNC game this year, especially with our favorable schedule. But this isn’t the same team as last year. They didn’t have the same game-winning performances. And I’m okay with that.
Going 10-2 and losing the two games against very good OSU and Iowa teams is more than OK by me. This season is still a success whether we win or lose in the bowl game. Knowing Joe Pa, chances are we won’t lose. I think PSU is still a better team than most people think, and they didn’t hit their gait until they played Michigan State.
Yeah, I’d love to win a MNC too, but this team didn’t have it. And I think Joe Pa knew it to. Finishing 11-2 or 10-3 on the season (and imo a bcs bowl berth), will be great with what we had.
We have little tranquility but tons of tranquilizers.
oh sweet jesus
sorry for the terrible grammar in there. *too , et al.
We have little tranquility but tons of tranquilizers.
by mikeissurreal on Nov 25, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
Spelling it grammer would be funnier.
by Pentimental on Nov 25, 2009 9:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Unfortunately, having been a PSU fan since about 1967, even if they had run the table, we fans would be facing frustration. Penn State woul not be the Number One Team in the Nation vying for the MNC today if they were undefeated. They would still be behind St. Tebow and Bear’s Ghost, even if the schedule included playing Mike Ditka driving the team bus in the Indy 500 vs. Rick Mears and winning. Just like last year, there is nothing but Schadenfreude at the losses. Last years Iowa game was a heartbreaker, but would we have played for the MNC with no losses and would that scenario not have been more frustrating? This year, even with wins against Iowa and Obtuse Haematic Ignorant Odible State, Da Lions would still be number “tree”, and, yo, I don’t know about you, mammalucca, but that would give me the agita, Chalooz. Seriously, without putting horseheads in every one of the cogniscenti’s beds, “conventional” wisdom will always go against La Cosa Paterno, the capo de tutti capo of the FBS. The only way to the MNC for PSU is an undefeated season with every other team, except possibly one opponent, with one loss.
by Pentimental on Nov 25, 2009 9:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
oh sweet, sweet grammar
boy and girls, I think we’re goin’ to the Cap 1 Bowl…I don’t like it either, but it’s just a gut feeling.
I'm fine with that
Honestly, I’m not going to be too upset if we don’t get a BCS bid. I’m perfectly happy playing an SEC team in the Cap1, and honestly if we’re matched up against either TCU or Boise, I’d actually prefer the Cap1. Sure we don’t get the prestige of a BCS bowl, but who cares, I just want a good opponent we match up well with, and we’d actually enjoy beating (which I wouldn’t get from beating a TCU or Boise).
matchup-wise I'd probably rather Cap One bowl
but $ wise I’d rather BCS
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 29, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
How about this?
I don’t really care where we go, either game is against a similar opponent. The Citrus Bowl might actually might present us with a better matchup.
The only BCS scenario that intrigues me is the Georgia Tech game, and that is not a given with the way Clemson has been playing down the stretch. Those mid-major match ups just don’t do it for me, and a Cinncy matchup is just blah!
So bottom line, I wouldn’t mind playing in the Citrus, I want to see PSU win, finish strong, and use it as a spring board for bigger and better things.
11-2? Graduated your offensive line, WRs and several key secondary folks? Not too bad in my book.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
i used might twice...
I was referring to the might of the Godfather.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Nov 26, 2009 8:47 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with you about mid-majors
Mainly because TCU would probably beat us. I also think they’d beat Alabama whose offense starts to go downhill without Mark Ingram.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Nov 26, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
Whoops, I basically said the exact same thing right above this
but I totally agree. Mid-major matchup is a lose-lose scenario, GT would be an interesting game, and if we can’t have that one, I’ll gladly take the Cap1 matchup with an SEC team.
If you could bring back Keith Jackson
the Rose Bowl might hold a little more appeal for me. Jeez, I miss hearing that guy call games!

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