Next verse same as the first
by brubby on Dec 1, 2009 10:47 AM EST
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I readily admit that I'm not as up on basketball as I should be, but I try and catch the games when they show up on TV - especially the WWL. Last night seemed to be exactly like every single game I watched last year... Struggle - Blow up for big points - Brick fest & Questionable clock management down the stretch to just about wring defeat from the jaws of victory.
Besides the tradition, etc... what exactly is that spark that separates the middle of the road squads (which is a status I'm glad to have achieved, sort of) from the consistently good teams? We have facilities. We have money. We lack an urban location that might be an issue, but I wouldn't really consider the Research Triangle an urban jungle either.
Is it simply a matter of coaching/recruiting? Don't get me wrong - I'm not bashing the current crew, lord knows its been a slow steady improvement the last few years. But if you could drop a half bajillion dollars on the second coming of Dean Smith, would it help?
Just trying to edumacate myself here - what do you guys think?
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We just need a foundation of fan support and the expectation for (modest) success. Once that occurs we already have the other major pieces to the puzzle. Once we get to the point where we expect a bid to the dance every other year, we’ll expect a HC who can accomplish that… That’s why I voted for HC.
"We hugged as grown men do. It was a great moment. Then, it was business as usual." -- LJ Sr.
I voted for it because if we brought in (a clean version of) Calipari
We’d be in it to win it by next season.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
There's no such thing as a clean version of Calipari
To get one year wonder style recruits, you have to be shady. No way around it.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Very sadly true
As shady as FB recruiting is, it is nothing compared to BB. In BB there are very few absolute studs and a lot of teams. In basketball, just one or two kids can make a program, you are more desperate for them. In FB, even if you don’t get a TP-eque recruit, there are other options where you can still be very successful.
Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.
"Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth."
Time
I think we just need time. Penn State has zero winning tradition. Our facilities were terrible before Ed got here. They got the facilities worked out now. They got a taste of winning last year and the fans are starting to buy in. Now all they have to do is keep winning and competing, and each year Ed will be able to upgrade the recruiting a little more.
There is still room to improve. I don’t think we’ve hit the ceiling yet, but we may reach a day where we say this is as far as Ed can take us.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on Dec 1, 2009 11:25 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
This
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Come on
He totally outcoached a former COTY last night, and his recruiting has been getting better and better. Sure, there are bad losses, but this is a young team, and I want to give Ed every chance to develop this program before we have to let him go. I don’t blame the failures on him, but I give him a lot of credit for the successes. He’s doing this, which is building a tradition and being competitive every night, with Talor Battle and a bunch of scrubs. Sure, last year we had Mel and Pringle, but what were they but a JuCo transfer and a tough SOB that nobody wanted? Credit Ed for their development. And I credit Ed, and Preston, and Kanaskie for the development of Brooks, and Jackson, and Frazier. And when we get Buie and Burke in here, we’ll start moving up. It’s a slow and gradual process, but we’ll get there. We’ll never be MSU or Purdue, but we could easily be the Wisconsin or Michigans of this league, competing for a tournament spot in virtually every season.
NittanyWhiteOut.com. Arguably the second best Penn State blog I know of.
I'm not aiming to lynch Ed... I think he's doing a great job.
My real question is why can’t we be like Michigan State? What exactly keeps us from being Syracuse? Why do we have to be a football/volleyball/fencing school and not an ALLPOWERFULL OZ type of juggernaut?
Could it be as simple as Mike said? We just have to get a critical mass of believers to WILL it to happen?
Chewbacca is an explicative
Syracuse became Syracuse because their football team sucked
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Ditto this for Pitt...
…
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
But not for, say, Texas
In general, I agree with Brubby. It CAN be done. But it would take quite a while.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
I've written about this before
They got Teddy Dupay, who was later kicked off the team. The next year they got Mike Miller. That was back-to-back 5 star recruits that turned the program around.
Dupay
AKA the man who tried to break Mateen Cleaves’s ankle in half.
But, yeah, he was pretty good.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Come on, now
That’s like asking why Duke or UNC will never be a football power. We’re a football school, and no matter how good our basketball team gets, short of elite levels, it’ll stay that way. Basketball is fun, a diversion, something to follow when football season is over. Football is a year round thing here. You can ask any student on campus who Sean Lee or Daryll Clark or Joe Paterno is and they’ll be able to write an essay for you. Talor Battle or Ed Dechellis might get a sentence, if they even know who you’re talking about.
Teams don’t become elite overnight. If Penn State were to jump into that upper echelon, it would take decades of sustained success. Even Michigan State has missed the tournament a couple times in the last few years. But with basketball, it’s all about the programs. Duke and UNC and Michigan State will always get the recruits, not because of their coach, but because of the panache of Duke and UNC and Michigan State. It’s deeply entrenched in that mindset. Penn State might be able to be like, say, a Providence, who makes the tournament every couple of years and is almost always competitive, in the middle of the pack of the Big East. Or like Minnesota, who’ve done the same thing in the Big Ten. But we will never be Duke or MSU, and I’m okay with that.
NittanyWhiteOut.com. Arguably the second best Penn State blog I know of.
I don't think
it is completely impossible that we can end up on the level of an MSU, but it won’t be for a very long time. It may be highly unlikely, but things happen.
I see no reason why we can’t achieve the same success that our women’s team had not that long ago, I think that would be very nice and doable.
Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.
"Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth."
Maybe we limit ourselves by what we think we know is possible
10 years ago LSU football sucked – couldn’t even fill the stadium and season tickets were easily had. They were definitely a BB school – home of Pistol Pete & Shaq. Now its certainly a football first (or maybe baseball really) place and that giant passionate fanbase was awakened by a couple years of winning that made the place a destination for recruits. Temple’s fine and all, but imagine if we could put a recruiting fence around Philly and got a few guys out of NYC every couple years. We have a pretty fertile recruiting base if we could find a way to leverage it.
Chewbacca is an explicative
LSU has never been a basketball school
Yeah, the football team sucked for a decade for so, but football will always be the mindset there.
And I think it’s hard if not totally impossible to “put a recruiting fence around Philly”. There are already well established programs closer to Philly than PSU.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah good luck with that
You have Nova and all the other Philly schools, then the best players go to places like UNC and Duke and other national programs. Then Syracuse has a very strong presence in Philly.
^this
The Philly schools can’t even put a fence around Philly – UNC and Duke have been plucking the best players from the Philly area since the 1960s and ‘Cuse too since the 1970s. Nova’s final four run will help keep some more local talent in the Philly area (i.e. Wayans and Cheek), but it is still an uphill battle. At this point, if you are an elite talent in the Philly area, why would you go to PSU over ’Nova (other than maybe ’Nova is already stacked at that position)?
Never mistake effort for achievement.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 2, 2009 8:24 AM EST up reply actions
What about Chris Jackson
Back before he became Mahmoud?
"For me the game wasn’t grounded in reality. It was about the uniform you put on that turned you into a warrior. It was about the mythology of the battle, the victory, the defeat, the struggle." - Mike Reid, PSU '69
Apparently you've never read "It Never Rains in Tiger Stadium"
good read if you’ve got the time
"Every player we have, someone—maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone—poured their life and soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world." - Joe Paterno
by Horse N Buggy on Dec 1, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Well of course Ed outcoached a former COTY.
He IS a former BTCOTY after all.
by PSUisMyHeart on Dec 1, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's what I want:
We don’t have to go the NCAAs every year, we don’t have to challenge Michigan State for the title every year. I don’t know if we can ever make it to that level without hiring a Calipari type weasel. But we can be a solid program that makes it to the NCAAs once every two or three years, with a really special team once in a while. I think we’re very close to that. But the fans have to stick with the team.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
I'm a fan of the fans
You guys. As such, I’ll stick with you fans, which should move me from neutral to positive in little bursts. While the thrill of the sport of basketball has been leaving me slowly each passing year, I’m still a huge fan of BSD and may join my buds for an occasional hoops thread SMASH.
"For me the game wasn’t grounded in reality. It was about the uniform you put on that turned you into a warrior. It was about the mythology of the battle, the victory, the defeat, the struggle." - Mike Reid, PSU '69
Perhaps
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
I lived in West Halls
when John Amechi & Danny Earl were there and they were great ambassadors to the program. It seemed we were really making progress then – runner up at NIT, a couple tournaments under Bruce. A kind of Tennessee tradition with Renee (whatever her other faults were). Then it just collapsed.
I think that cycle of sort of up, then crash is more disheartening than anything and I see alot of parallels between the mid 90’s and now that I’d hope aren’t repeated.
Chewbacca is an explicative
Well, ED isn't Jerry Dunn
So there’s that, at least.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Hopefully Ed never leaves bigtime
recruits waiting for a meeting, only to never show up or follow up with the kid.
One man doing the work of 100's for the good of 1000's
Oooh
I’ve never heard this one before. Link?
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
I heard the story years ago
(right after the end of the Dunn years) and have looked for a link but have never come up with one. I can’t recall who the recruit was either, just remember that it was a type of player PSU didn’t usually get. The player and his family attended the game and hung out afterward, only for Jerry Dunn to slip out and never come back.
One man doing the work of 100's for the good of 1000's
This incoming class is very, very important
Obviously the goal for next season is the NCAAs. But we have to hope Taran Buie doesn’t transfer like the last little brother of a Penn State basketball star.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
I was worried about this at first
but I don’t think he will. I mean his mom moved from NY to state college this year
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face
I laughed when I saw that someone was an announcer for the big ten network now.
Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.
"Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth."
Totally different situation.
Twitter: @scrappled
"When it’s third-and-10, you can take the milk drinkers and I’ll take the whiskey drinkers every time" - Max McGee
by Run Up The Score on Dec 1, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
I know, but still
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
I voted for recruiting but think I would like to switch
I think you need the great coaching hire before you get the great recruiting classes. Look at what the recruiting classes the wrestling team is pulling as soon as Cael signed. If we can hire a coach of that level no doubt we get those classes and runs in the NCAAs every year. Look at Memphis
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face
Great point...
Penn State has always had a great wrestling tradition but the Cael hire could be the tipping point to perpetual greatness. A nice counterpoint to the BB discussion.
Chewbacca is an explicative
but maybe there in lies another issue regarding coaching
psu wrestling already has a reputation of quality, with cael coming in it only elevated that to a ridiculous level.
would hiring a new coach for a program with not nearly as much prestige create the same results?
We decide when you hear the snap count...
I really think it would
What was Memphis’ prestige prior to hiring the sleaze?
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face
I think they were better off than we were, but no NC contender thats for sure.
Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.
"Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth."
Decent
NCAA appearances:
1955, 1962, 1973, 1976, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985*, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996
Final Fours:
1973, 1985
Runner-ups:
1973
Asterisks denote “vacated by the NCAA”. It’s a tradition.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
"We have facilities."
[Four] years ago, Penn State redid the locker room, replacing the cheesy, pressed-wood lockers with cherry wood, converting an unused space into a lounge complete with flat-screen TVs, and carving a video room in what was previously a visiting locker room.
And the last weekend in September 2008, DeChellis and his staff moved into 4,000 square feet of office spaces that include a kitchenette, mailing/copying/faxing center, private conference room and separate area to host recruits.
Much like the wrestling team, only recently has Penn State Athletics spent money on improvements. That’s why we can’t be a basketball conference NOW; we didn’t even TRY to be one until recently.
Could the football team's "crappy" scheduling have something to do with all this?
When we’re banging on Curley for the OOC football schedule, wouldn’t more crappy football schedules (assuming this leads to more athletic dept. revenue) really help us get better in all other sports??? If we have to schedule Coastal Carolinas more often to get our basketball team to the big dance…is that a sacrifice anyone is willing to make?
all it would take is scheduling one mid-range FBS team
and that would make the FCS-inclusive OOC schedule go down much smoother. like an arizona or something…iowa having beat them game them a lot of respect coming down the stretch, given the fact that arizona turned out to be good.
although i don’t think we got much respect for blowing out oregon state last year when people thought they sucked, then realized they weren’t bad when they beat USC. different strokes…
We decide when you hear the snap count...
we got to tour the facilities
At the open practice, and it was absolutely incredible. Eds office was the size of my dorm room, the tv room is awesome and everything is brand new. Our facilities have GOT to be top ten in the country.
NittanyWhiteOut.com. Arguably the second best Penn State blog I know of.
by PSUdevon on Dec 1, 2009 5:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
your dorm room?
That sounds very, very small for a d-1A basketball coach.
This program was 1,000 feet deep in the smoking crater of a nuclear bomb when ED took over.
A lot of people just don’t realize that. And even though nobody went to the games, the program turned a profit due to the Big Ten TV contracts. So in Penn State’s view, it was a raging success. Also, they were pouring millions into Rene’s disastrous, choking program, so there wasn’t a lot left for other sports.
When ED took over, there was no video system. They were using VHS tapes. They didn’t even have 10 players for 5-on-5 practices, so assistant coaches had to practice with the team. Really, it was disgusting. This program was dust. And everybody should read that linked article again.
Twitter: @scrappled
"When it’s third-and-10, you can take the milk drinkers and I’ll take the whiskey drinkers every time" - Max McGee
by Run Up The Score on Dec 1, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
Two ways to build
Because there are only five guys on the court at a time, you can build a basketball team pretty simply. Grab two elite guys and, voila, NCAA tournament team. You need a coach that can sell ice to an eskimo for that when you have zip tradition like PSU. Somehow, I don’t see the Board of Trustees going for a John Calipari or a Billy Gillespie.
The other way is to gradually get there. Similar to Texas Tech or Oregon in football. You need to get the right coach in there and then progress gradually. Winning begets winning. If Ed can string together last year with a few more NIT runs and some NCAA appearances, all kids will know about Penn State is that they win a lot more bball games than they lose, and the recruits will flow in.
Take a look at Villanova. They’re of the city but not in the city. A smaller school with a lily-white student body and a once-glorious past. Steve Lappas destroyed that program, but Jay Wright came in and had a vision.
First, he brought in guards from the NY metro/NJ area, because that’s what he could recruit. Slowly, the team progressed from NIT qualifier to sweet sixteen Cinderalla. The first year they made the Elite 8 they started four (FOUR!) guards and Jason Fraser. Then the winning attracted all kinds of players, and now Nova has the resources to go out and get anyone in the country for their team, which is now a clear top 10 program and Sweet Sixteen regular.
I still think money plays a big part in all this.
You definitely need the right coach, but look at Oregon or Ok State in football. Huge donations from Phil Knight/T. Boone Pickens = top notch facilities, etc. = consistent, gradual climb in the rankings.
This is why success breeds success IMO: success breeds money, which breeds success. So maybe this is a little bit of a chicken/egg argument but I believe injecting money into any sport is a gigantic help. So…make a donation or something. That’s my theory.
i believe this is the point of the new football seating arrangements
although i don’t know how much, if any, of that money goes to facilities.
We decide when you hear the snap count...
So…make a donation or something.
Better yet, go to the games. Admittedly, this isn’t easy for a lot of us (“Northwestern on Wednesday night? Sure, I’ll drive from Lancaster or Johnstown for that!”), but I’m planning on starting to see a game or two this season. And if enough people do the same…
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
You live in Lancaster AND Johnstown? Droids are so cool.
"For me the game wasn’t grounded in reality. It was about the uniform you put on that turned you into a warrior. It was about the mythology of the battle, the victory, the defeat, the struggle." - Mike Reid, PSU '69
yup
Droids are awesome. I highly recommend.
NittanyWhiteOut.com. Arguably the second best Penn State blog I know of.
by PSUdevon on Dec 1, 2009 6:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I am a tool for a higher machine.
A higher goal, if you will.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
I will
Zug works in mysterious ways.
Although, we now have you on record as saying you’re a tool.
"For me the game wasn’t grounded in reality. It was about the uniform you put on that turned you into a warrior. It was about the mythology of the battle, the victory, the defeat, the struggle." - Mike Reid, PSU '69
I'd rather be called a tool than be called an a-hole
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Dec 2, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
People will start showing up more.
Taylor is fun to watch, no matter what the competition. Get players who make basketball exciting. The senior citizen crowd is going to show up regardless (God Bless them, they’ve been like 85% of the crowds for some games) but students want to see us. They just want to see something similar to what they see on TV. Exciting games from a competitive team.
Hopefully we are building something slow and steady, and a new era of basketball in Happy Valley will be upon us.
It's been a long, a long time coming
But I know a change gonna come, oh yes it will-Sam Cooke
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