Do As We Do, Not As We Say
by KevinHD on Mar 16, 2009 10:41 AM EDT
in Basketball
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PrintSoutheastern Conference Commissioner and NCAA Selection Committee chair Mike Slive on CBS after the bracket was released:
There are two key things said there; they looked at:
- "your entire body of work"
- "teams that played away and won against top teams in the country"
As generic as those words are, keep in mind it is a direct response to why Penn State didn't make it into the tournament.
So Penn State must have been excluded because they didn't go out, schedule, and beat a "top team" on the road this year. But these teams must have because they did make the tournament:
[charts! charts! charts! after the jump]
[for arguments sake let's call a "top" team one that is in KenPom's top 25]
| Team | OOC Road Games (KenPom, result) | Wins @ "Top Team" |
| Arizona | Texas A&M (52, L), UNLV (69, L) |
zero |
| Minnesota* | Colorado State (117, W) |
zero |
| Wisconsin | Virginia Tech (57, W), Marquette (20, L) |
zero |
| Dayton* | Akron (83, W), Creighton (67, L) |
zero |
| Maryland | (none) |
zero |
| Penn State | Penn (269, W), Georgia Tech (88, W) |
zero |
*Minnesota had a neutral court, note NOT road, win against Louisville (4), which isn't technically relevant but definitely worth mentioning. Dayton's neutral court win over Marquette (20) also probably qualifies as for this footnote.
Uhhh, nevermind I guess?
Wait a minute though, he never explicitly said out of conference road wins, and since no one in the table above distinguished themselves out of the league he must have meant all road wins against "top" teams. So in-league:
| Team | League Road Wins (KenPom, result) | Wins @ "Top Team" |
| Arizona | @ ORST (123), @ ORE (154) | zero |
| Minnesota | @ IOWA (89), @ WIS (30), @ IU (214) | zero |
| Wisconsin | @ MICH (49), @ PSU (78), @ IU (214) | zero |
| Dayton | @ DUQ (87), @ GW (187), @ La Salle (108), | zero |
| Maryland | @ GT (88), @ NCST (77) | zero |
| Penn State | @ MSU (13), @ ILL (23), @ IU (214) | two |
New bullet:
Mike Slive is crazy.The NCAA Selection Committee doesn't understand what the word "message" means.
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And so what I think he meant was “we pretty much just look at RPI and seed off of that.”
Black Shoe Diaries
I BLAME IOWA.
He forgot to mention
that Mississippi State, a team from his own conference, FUCKED us. Fucked us up the ass.
Here's what I think they do...
Right at the beginning, throw out the teams with the worst non-con schedules and assume they didn’t want it bad enough from the beginning. This is the only explanation I can think of for weeding out some bubble teams they weeded out. Otherwise, a team like Penn State that has more and better wins against “top” teams, a better conference record, a better overall record, and a better record in the last 10 games, etc. would have gone in over Arizona EASILY. They just assumed Penn State wasn’t taking it seriously from the beginning, and I gotta admit they’re right……..sucks.
Why bring up
the one thing they did, win big on the road, as the reason they didn’t get in? But, yeah, I think you’re on to something.
Black Shoe Diaries
I BLAME IOWA.
How Arizona got in
AGAIN, blows my mind. They sucked last year and got in and they suck this year and got in.
by Screen Name 20 on Mar 16, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Arizona is the killer for me
MD went sub-500, which is bad, but at least they have a couple of wins to brag about. Every CBS/ESPN analyst was touting zona and no one of them had a good reason for them being included.
Black Shoe Diaries
I BLAME IOWA.
Penn State’s SOS before LOSING to Iowa and the Big 10 tourney was 79. Playing Indiana for a 3rd time and Iowa for a second dropped that, I imagine.
Arizona’s SOS was 32.
The two teams were virtually the same against the top 10 and the top 25.
Scheduling, and PSU’s non-conference schedule, is what got them out.
Look. I watched Michigan win 20-22 games a year for 3 straight years under Amaker while fattening up against the little sisters of poor – this is what happens.
http://www.wolverineliberationarmy.blogspot.com
I thought they were done when the lost to ASU….shows what I know.
by Screen Name 20 on Mar 16, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
It’s not the exclusion of Penn State that’s the biggest issue (I don’t think they were the last team squeezed by Mississippi State’s win), it’s the INCLUSION of Arizona.
Finished 9-10 in their conference, lost 5 of their last 6, went a pathetic 2-9 on the road (with wins over . . . wait for it . . . Oregon and Oregon State—the only losing teams in the conference). They went 1-1 AT HOME against C-USA (lost to UAB, beat Houston in OT).
I’m not arguing that Arizona doesn’t have one of the 34 most talented at-large teams. But, frankly, who cares. The idea is WIN games whether it’s a 6 OT classic or 38-33. The “eye” test is simply a scam to make up for the piss poor resume of Arizona. After 32 games, they are what they are and what they are is pretty damn average, regardless of talent.
The team that bothers me most
is Maryland. They were 7-9 in the ACC. I’ve long thought that teams that were under .500 in conference play should be excluded from the NCAA tournament. Otherwise, what’s the point of the regular season? I thought PSU would have gotten in ahead of Wisconsin, but the Badgers did beat us twice this year so that undoubtedly was a factor.
Look, if you are going to start holding people accountable
for things they say on TV, then ESPN won’t have a staff anymore, and coaches and commisioners will all (mostly) be gone (I still wish Urban Meyer would have outright answered the question when someone asked him if he thought undefeated Utah should be National Champions this year, since that was his stance when he was coach there)
by The JuggerNitt on Mar 16, 2009 11:41 AM EDT reply actions
then ESPN won’t have a staff anymore
If ESPN wants to get back to reporting on sports instead of having people shout wild opinions at us I think we could all agree it would be for the best.
Black Shoe Diaries
I BLAME IOWA.
Seriously
If you cut out all discussion and speculation that network is probably only 50% dedicated to just showing sports and reporting headlines. I remember the early days of ESPN when you turned it on in the middle of the night and there were two guys playing ping-pong or something.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
They still have that
it’s on the Ocho.
by Screen Name 20 on Mar 16, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Kinda like the original MTV
Nothin’ but music and vidoes and music videos
"The sea was angry that day, my friends." G. Costanza
One theory
ESPN radio and TV assumes you already have the information, and that you’re tuning in for opinion and analysis NOT information or facts. You’ve probably read your local news paper, blog, or got an update on your mobile device… Now you want the inside information, “infotainment”, or opinion based stuff…
This is a trend in all media, not just sports media. It’s the assumption that facts and information are so abundant and accessible via technology that when you take time to watch TV or listen to the radio you’re doing so already knowing the headlines. So the shows and talking heads don’t have to inform you, they just have to tell you their opinion…
The striking irony of this new approach to news and information is that by assuming everyone has access to legitimate information and facts, barely anyone actually reports it and people now know less despite having more information thrown at them…
Fortunately for us we have BSD.
"We hugged as grown men do. It was a great moment. Then, it was business as usual." -- LJ Sr.
It could be just about anybody in cable news
I blame Iowa
by ReadingRambler on Mar 16, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
But they'd have to do research and stuff
and admit that it’s all a crap shoot.
That’s not going to happen. It’s easier to shout.
by chitownhawkeye on Mar 16, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it came down to...
…the fact that three conferences including the Big Ten are being represented by seven teams each and that the powers-that-be couldn’t come to grips with the idea of having an eighth Big Ten teams in the tourney. So when it came down to Michigan and Penn State, Michigan was the sexier (no offense to Ed DeChellis) team.
by LowcountryLion on Mar 16, 2009 12:27 PM EDT reply actions
That was my reaction when I saw the conference totals
Even if the Big10 deserved an 8th spot, there was no way the “conference everybody loves to hate” would have the most.
I don’t know if the hate’s the same for basketball as in football, but that was my initial reaction.
"The sea was angry that day, my friends." G. Costanza
Yep...
I really think the selection committee looked at the conference totals and said “Whoa, whoa, whoa! That’s enough BigTen teams. And for Christ’s sake, Ed’s bald spot is blinding me!”
by LowcountryLion on Mar 16, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually...
It probably went something like this: “Whoa, whoa, whoa! That’s plenty of BigTen teams. And how could he have coached this pretty good team. He doesn’t even have hair!”
by LowcountryLion on Mar 16, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Arizona was completely unjustifiable. Don’t much like Maryland’s resume, but they at least beat someone away from home (Arizona beat Gonzaga in Phoenix, which is the only win they have over a top 150 team anywhere other than their home court).
Not sure Penn State deserved the spot ahead of some of the other snubs (Creighton and San Diego State), but they sure as hell deserved it ahead of Arizona.
Well stated
I can’t remember a worse decision by the tournament than Arizona’s inclusion in this tournament.
This Is All You Need To Know
Penn State played one single team playing in either the NCAA or NIT this postseason in the OOC, Temple. Who beat us. There is no argument.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
Same can be said about 'zona minn wisk dayton and maryland
PSU played 8 teams that made the tournament and recorded wins against 5 of them. Went 7 – 9 overall against those teams. If you looked at the rest of the teams in the field the same way you’d find many that were more impressive and more than a handful that were less impressive. I think there’s plenty of room to argue (but it won’t get us in the tournament).
I don't get why OOC games
are different than regular games. If team A played 3 top 25 OOC games, and 2 top 25 in league games; while Team B played 0 and 6 respectively, who gives a shit whether the tough teams they played were in their leage or not?
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
The argument against us comes...
at the beginning of the year where the team played horrible teams.
William and Mary (10-20)
N.J.I.T (1-30)!
Hartford (7-260
New Hampshire (14-16)
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled"- Hunter S. Thompson
hey, don't bash NJIT
they had more wins this year than they did last year
by The JuggerNitt on Mar 16, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
FYI
If you are going to mention neutral site wins (as you allude to for Dayton and Minnesota), you need to point out Maryland beating Michigan St in Orlando.
I congratulate the Nittany Lions on a great season
And even though it hurts right now, this season was a great ride, and it was fun to see the enthusiasm back in supporting the team. Although I’ve been a fan of the team for years, I don’t get an opportunity to see them in person very often because I live in Pittsburgh now, but I made it a point to go to the Illinois game, and it will be a long time before I forget the excitement after the win.
I feel bad for Cornley, Morrissey, and Pringle as this was their last shot. I think Cornley was an absolute warrior down the stretch, and we may never know how hurt he actually was, but you never heard him once complain about it or make excuses.
The most frustrating thing about it all is whether you blame the OOC schedule, some decisions in close games, etc., the bottom line is that if they would have been able to make one more defensive stop or get one more score in regulation against Iowa, none of that would have mattered and we would have been definitely in.
But, that’s basketball…as we saw this week, there are so many games that come down to the end and impact who gets in, and we just fell on the short end of things.
I just want to remember this season for all of the excitement it created for the program and not for things that are beyond our control.
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