Fuzzy Math Presents: Bottom Lines In The Big Ten

by KevinHD on Mar 4, 2009 1:13 PM EST in Football

Mathtest_medium

Scott Dochterman of the Cedar Rapids Gazette was able to pull together the raw data surrounding the profitability of Big Ten football programs.

Because his presentation is weak, I've pulled the B10+ND data and sorted it:

(after the jump)

By Total Revenue:

Byrev1_medium

By Total Expenses:

Byexp1_medium

By Total Men's Sports Recruiting Expenses (Dochterman claims, "football recruiting expenses take up between 40 and 55 percent of all men's recruiting expenses (except Notre Dame, which is much higher)"):

Byrcost1_medium

[really Notre Dame? 1.7?!?]

By Net, or money given back to the AD:

Bynet1_medium

And your bullets:

The first question I asked when looking at these number, and the biggest problem with them by far, is that there aren't any standards for how to count revenue, expenses and thus net 'profit'. There are obvious costs like yearly coaching salaries, but a major item not discussed is how to handle the hundreds-of-millions spent on stadiums, their upkeep, and their upgrades. The numbers can obviously be played with, changing amortization, what to capitalize, etc. It makes the 'cost' number almost meaningless without that detail.
For example: PSU and UM have similar costs, yet one has a very highly paid coach and major stadium renovation going on and one has a very low paid coach and hasn't touched their stadium in years. They aren't apples.
There is some discussion about this over at BHGP, as they try to sort out Iowa's seemingly high expense number.
Ohio State is listed at the top of the revenue sort, but when Forbes looked at "the most valuable football programs", they were ranked 10th nationally in total value behind Notre Dame and Michigan.
Which is reflected in the 'Net' numbers. Although PSU came in behind OSU on the Forbes list.
Who is surprised to see PSU ranked 9th on the recruiting costs sort? I'm not, although it makes you wonder what could be done if they were allowed to rack up an NDish cool million on recruiting.

While I always find these things interesting, I'm rarely satisfied at the clarity and conclusions that can be drawn. The stereotypes hold, though, and even with fuzzy math the idea that ND and Michigan spend a lot on recruiting, that Ohio State brings in a lot of revenue, and that Northwestern is hopeless outmatched all ring true. So at least we can take comfort in knowing the old guard isn't going anywhere.

Tweet Comment 60 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

Since Chuckwagon Charlie

has to pay for 2 seats when flying, I can easily see how ND racks up the recruiting costs with all those visits to recruits.

How is OSU’s revenue so high compared to UM and PSU?

pinkertonpark.com

by rahpsu92 on Mar 4, 2009 1:26 PM EST reply actions

and notre dame?

Either ND is sandbagging or OSU is counting something significant that no one else is. Ticket revenue is more or less the same between PSU, OSU and UM. Same with TV revenue as far as I know unless there was some type of perk involved in the USC series. Merchandise sales have to be fairly consistent as well, although I have stats to back that up. It’s why I almost with I would have never seen this thing.

BSD

by KevinHD on Mar 4, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions

tOSU Merch

Although tOSU does get to print one of those sweet Big Ten Football Championship shirts every year, even when they don’t win, which might account for the increased sales and revenue

by dawsonPSU10 on Mar 4, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions

And for that matter

what is OSU spending its money on that it’s expenses are so high? (or is it just the aforementioned accounting issue?)

by PSU Mudder on Mar 4, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions

Sigh.

Someone had to do it.

by Tailgate Shogun on Mar 4, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions

side note

Has anyone ever looked into this? I don’t know what kind of car that is, but I’m pretty sure a high school student isn’t supposed to be driving one.

by dawsonPSU10 on Mar 4, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions

pretty sure that a corvette...

by Screen Name 20 on Mar 4, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions

you didn't hear the story?

That car belongs to a “friend” of TP’s. He was letting him “borrow” it. This friend is also known to have lunch from time to time with Jim Tressel.

Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

by BSD on Mar 4, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions

I had not heard that about this picture

although I’m not terribly surprised. I thought I had heard about a real estate guy and tOSU grad in the area talking to him about being a buckeye, but I’m not sure if that was the same guy or not, and I never heard anything about a car being “loaned” to TP.

by dawsonPSU10 on Mar 4, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions

This season

When Gameday is in town for OSU-PSU, that picture NEEDS to be there with a “Columbus Vice” caption. Get it done, people.

by ReadingRambler on Mar 4, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions

'Ohio Vice'

has a nicer ring to it, I think.

Just need to add a Crockett to Prior’s Tubbs.

'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'

by Pete the Streak on Mar 4, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions

Crockett = Maurice Clarett

With his guns, I think he’d fit right in.

SOMEONE PLEASE PHOTOSHOP THIS RIGHT NOW!!!!

by Tailgate Shogun on Mar 4, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions

two words

alpaca sweatervests

We just needed a couple players, a couple people to buy in to the fact and we were able to do it. --A.Q. Shipley

by psu on Mar 4, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions

And alpaca hankies for Pryor to cry into

"We hugged as grown men do. It was a great moment. Then, it was business as usual." -- LJ Sr.

by millzners on Mar 4, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions

I smell a Pryor-Alpaca photoshop

by dawsonPSU10 on Mar 4, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions

3 minute photoshop job

by Cairo on Mar 4, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Poor animal

by ReadingRambler on Mar 4, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions

oh dear

is that even legal? Well…maybe in Ohio…and he thought PSU was too country for him!

by The JuggerNitt on Mar 4, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions

The Event Staff isn't stopping him

by Cairo on Mar 4, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions

That's always been my fave part of the picture

The staff guy looking away in shame as young Pryor sobs.

by ReadingRambler on Mar 4, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions

mine as well

Even better is the staff guy’s face isn’t one of compassion, it’s more, “Can you please stop sobbing like a little girl and get off this bench, we’ve got to clear out this stadium”

by dawsonPSU10 on Mar 4, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions

and 9 or months so later a baby is born....

The good news is that it throws better than its dad.

We just needed a couple players, a couple people to buy in to the fact and we were able to do it. --A.Q. Shipley

by psu on Mar 4, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions

And

Notre Dame sent a coach out to Hawaii every week to recruit that linebacker they wanted.

Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

by BSD on Mar 4, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions

Can't figure out the recruiting expenses.

I would have assumed that Stanford would be similar to Notre Dame, but their Total Men’s Sports Recruiting Expenses is only $622,304.

SI had an item about the average distance of football recruits’ homes from the institution. Stanford’s recruiting had by far the longest distance. That national recruiting scope wold probably drive costs up. Additionally, they are perennial winners of the Sears Trophy for the best overall performance by an Athletic Department. I would assume that demonstrates aggressive recruiting by all mens (and womens) departments.

by Cairo on Mar 4, 2009 1:35 PM EST reply actions

By the way

I would think stadium improvements would not be in the budget of the football program but rather in either the athletic department budget or general capital improvements budget.

It could be that the O$U’s revenue was smartly invested or they had a wealthy benefactor give them a huge gift.

by Cairo on Mar 4, 2009 1:39 PM EST reply actions

"The numbers can obviously be played with, changing amortization"

Armorization? Why would you armorize a stadium? Doe that help keep the goalposts from getting torn down?

"the secret to loving your job is having a hobby that you really despise"

by nitwit86 on Mar 4, 2009 1:48 PM EST reply actions

Nope

but it does spread the cost over many years.

by Screen Name 20 on Mar 4, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions

And makes it shinier

BSD

by KevinHD on Mar 4, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions

It's all clear, now.

The difference between amortization and Simonization was the difference between that C you got in ECON, and the A you wished you got.

by MainLion on Mar 4, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions

In terms of trying to get around you're "Cost dilemma"

you’d need to track down the cash flow statments.

by Screen Name 20 on Mar 4, 2009 1:55 PM EST reply actions

*your

by Screen Name 20 on Mar 4, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions

Recruiting Breakdown

Here’s a former thread which links to a recruiting budget breakdown…

http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2008/8/1/584501/recruiting-budget

Well, apparently the linked column is down, but if I recall, PSU spent a lot of their recruiting budget on women’s sports. So we face a shortfall against most other schools and we also allocate more of our budget for women’s sports, thus increasing the gap of men’s recruiting budget.

by Screen Name 20 on Mar 4, 2009 1:58 PM EST reply actions

Recruiting Costs

It’s pretty easy to keep recruiting costs down when you head coach doesn’t make any recruiting trips and you best recruiter just has to drive to Maryland all the time. I get the impression Larry Johnson is more a McDonalds guy than a Ruths Chris guy too.

Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

by BSD on Mar 4, 2009 1:58 PM EST reply actions

Did you just say

McDonalds?!

"We hugged as grown men do. It was a great moment. Then, it was business as usual." -- LJ Sr.

by millzners on Mar 4, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions

I do know that LJ, Sr. prefers Gates over Arthur Bryant's.

http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/the_sweep/posts/29661-my-kc-barbecue-dilemma-arthur-bryants-or-gates

by Cairo on Mar 4, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions

Ruths Chris

I made the mistake of going there when I was in Honolulu last year. Food in Honolulu is expensive so as it is but wow, when I saw the prices I almost passed out. I would have except the water they would have thrown on me to wake me up was $15!! :-)

by RNF18 on Mar 4, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions

Amen

It feels weird complaining about a business trip to Hawaii, but my food stipend was ridiculously small. I ate at a golf course clubhouse for breakfast and at a bowling alley for lunch, and I’d still bust over my stipend at dinner. …and no, I wasn’t golfing and bowling at either place.

by Cairo on Mar 4, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions

My saving grace in Honolulu was

PJ Chang’s! Very good food and they didn’t rob me blind like everyone else did. I couldn’t be totally cheap because I was out there with my wife and it’s not too romantic to eat at Subway daily if you know what I mean. Food was easily the largest expense while in HI for a week!

by RNF18 on Mar 4, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions

PSU vs. UM costs

I can’t believe I’m the first to say it, but I suspect PSU spending multiple millions trekking out to the Rose Bowl and UM sitting at home has something to do with the expense parity there. I assume this is FY 2008 data?

Also, I imagine there is an offset in the revenue line to make up for these costs. Last I heard, Bowl payouts go to the participant until their expenses are fully covered, then to the Big Ten to split. So, if OSU goes to a BCS bowl and makes it rain all over town, they could earn $10MM in “revenue” and have an associated $10MM of expense.

by Wlvrn99 on Mar 4, 2009 2:13 PM EST reply actions

Could be

Also, OSU had to make a regular season trip out to to California to play USC. I could see a Bowl trip costing well over a half million after air fare (players often make their own travel arrangements to bowl games after winter break), hotel, meals, and entertainment.

I suspect the number of home games played has something to do with revenue too. Some teams played eight home games while others played seven.

Mike
Black Shoe Diaries

by BSD on Mar 4, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions

Plus

OSU takes their militia/band with them on more road trips than most schools, I think.

by Wlvrn99 on Mar 4, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions

don't forget the private, individual corvettes for each player

by The JuggerNitt on Mar 4, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions

Good point

If I had any photoshop skills at all, a picture of a grey corvette with buckeye stickers on the side would definitely go here.

by Wlvrn99 on Mar 5, 2009 8:48 AM EST up reply actions

Beaver Stadium...

…has seen a number of renovations in the past few years including the new lettering and the Ribbon screens on the upper decks.

Also some structural work has been done along with the new Limestone wall lining the field.

by stonewall435 on Mar 4, 2009 3:51 PM EST reply actions

I really hope they close up the outside with stone someday

I know the idea was tossed around but I’d like to see that same limestone decorate the outside of the Beav as well. We need to get rid of that erector set look from the outside at least.

by RNF18 on Mar 4, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions

yeah, I love Beaver Stadium

but it definitely doesn’t win any external beauty awards.

by The JuggerNitt on Mar 4, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions

I'm actually a big fan

of the erector set style…that’s right style. It gives an industrial look to it. It says, were too busy running you over to care about a pretty exterior.

Onward to the Rose Bowl...Again!!!!!
Trapped in the SF Bay area.....nothing like kickoff at 9 am.

by bconway6 on Mar 4, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions

Limestone

It looks real nice on the inside.
I hadn’t heard any talk about doing that on the outside, but that would look great.

"The sea was angry that day, my friends." G. Costanza

by NJ lion on Mar 4, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions

It was a few years ago and it was brick

but since we did the limestone on the inside and there’s an association between PA and limestone, I thought it would be nice to put limestone around the outside too.

Could you imagine if the stadium was closed in? The sound would be deafening if it was trapped inside the stadium! It would give us even more of a homefield advantage and not just a nicer look.

by RNF18 on Mar 5, 2009 10:01 AM EST up reply actions

x = 5 cm

"The sea was angry that day, my friends." G. Costanza

by NJ lion on Mar 4, 2009 6:51 PM EST reply actions

Showoff.

'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'

by Pete the Streak on Mar 4, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions

lucky guess

show your work.

by Screen Name 20 on Mar 4, 2009 7:39 PM EST up reply actions

a2 + b2 = c2

Doesn’t anyone remember this from HS math or maybe Math 140/141?? Anyone? Buehler?
There’s so much statistical analyses done on this blog to determine our chances of a MNC or a Tournament bid, I figured that Pythagorean Theorem would be like child’s play.

"The sea was angry that day, my friends." G. Costanza

by NJ lion on Mar 4, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions

perhaps if it said "calculate x"

but it just said to “find x”

Next thing we know Lassie will come barking, and people will be like, “Timmy is lost in the woods? We have to go find him!!” and you’ll sit down and start doing math problems. Lotta good that’ll do.

by The JuggerNitt on Mar 5, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions