Why Michigan Isn't Pitt [Warning: Offseason Fodder]
by Adam Bittner on Jan 30, 2010 11:52 AM EST
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PrintWe've done some talking around here lately about whether Michigan is becoming Pitt.
Well after posts and comments like this, I'd say the biggest difference is respect. Maybe Michigan hates us. Maybe they want to beat us more than anyone (save Ohio State and Notre Dame). But at the end of the day, the respect us. They respects Paterno. They respect our players. They don't say stuff like this.
After I made this rather neutral comment...
Diomination?
Ehhhh.
I think you'll see an Evan Royster like regression this season with his offensive line graduating like Royster's did in 2008. He might put up similiar numbers, but I'm not sure he'll be as good as he was this year. Just throwing it out there.
The place went nuts (NickDawg)
Adam dude you are delirious -
Royster is a good back but isnt half the back Dion Lewis is or Shady McCoy was. It must be nice to be in a parralel universe where you see things in only blue and white. Lewis will be a Heisman finalist whereas Royser wont even be mentioned.
Stay in school dont be a fool!
First, let's compare Shady to Royster in 2008, Shady's last year.
McCoy: 308 attempts, 1,488 yards, 21 Touchdowns, 4.8 yards per carry.
Royster: 191 attempts, 1,236 yards, 12 Touchdowns, 6.5 yards per carry.
Given Royster's average, his 2008 yardage total would have projected to 1,996 yards had he attempted Shady's 308 carries, and the touchdown total would have been similar, hanging in the low 20s. Shady went pro last year, and good for him. I'm not going to sit here and say he wasn't a good football player. But don't tell me he was some freak/god compared to Royster because he wasn't. His stats are what they were for being the only good player on a football team as much as anything else. If it weren't for the fact that Penn State was, you know, a good, deep, 11-2 football team in 2008, Royster could have run up the stats at an even better clip than Shady. But because the Lions had good football players in Stephon Green, etc., behind Royster, he didn't get the carries to do it. That doesn't mean Shady is better, it only means Royster was on a better football team and didn't need to take the carries Shady did.
Now let's compare Lewis and Royster this season, with the line Royster ran behind in 2008 having graduated and Lewis's remaining intact.
Lewis: 325 carries, 1,799 yards, 17 Touchdowns, 5.5 yards per carry.
Royster: 205 attempts, 1,169 yards, 6 touchdowns, 5.7 yards per carry.
Obviously Lewis far exceeds Royster in yardage, but again, if you give Royster the same amount of carries as the Pitt back, he beats him. Given 325 carries, Royster projects to run for 1,853 yards. Lewis still wins in touchdowns, but once again, the numbers prove that the Pitt running back gets the hype he does because he plays for an inferior team with inferior depth that relies on him much more than Penn State relies on its back.
The moral of this story is that Royster was a more productive back in his carries for Penn State than either Shady or Lewis were in their attempts with Pitt in 2008 and 2009. Am I suggesting that Royster should be a "Heisman finalist"? Hells no. Only that Lewis should not.
Now, the rest of the comments for your entertainment.
(Clint Pitts)
Pitt is losing 3 OL, TE and QB to graduation. If you don't think this will result in teams loading up against the run and Dion having fewer holes you're crazy. It's called a sophomore slump for a reason.
That said I hope they get him in the weight room and get him up to about 205. He could be a beast for a long time as long as he gets big enough to take the beating. With the success Jones-Drew and Michael Turner are having as short, big backs he would have a great shot in the NFL.
BurressWithButterflyWings
Pitt is losing 3 OL, and their TE. But they have some guys who will be coming in and starting on the OL that got a good deal of experience as backups last season and played well in the starter's stead. Not as much coming back as I would like, but who knows how much of a difference a year makes with a RB's mental development, too.
He also has the Polish Hammer in front of him to clear the way.
@Adam,
Of course you are going to come on here and start talking trash. All you do is whine about how people jump on Penn State's back. Well, on this blog at least, YOU give all of us who don't drink the Penn St. Kool-Aid reason to hate your beloved home of the defending NIT Champs.
I'm sorry, was that NIT comment supposed to be an insult? YOU CAN'T SPELL NITTANY WITHOUT NIT BABY!! LEARN IT, LIVE IT, LOVE IT.
(NickDawg)
clint pitts - change your name to Clint Penn st - it would be way more fitting....the guys coming in on the OL got some decent playing time last yr. I'm not saying they wont lose a beat but they are not losing too much. I dont see any sophmore slump just visions of the Heisman pose.
Hail [edit: to] Pitt!
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i take umbrage to polish hammer....PITT players deserve no cool nicknames.
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. "
George S Patton
by psu in the w-b on Jan 30, 2010 12:32 PM EST reply actions
I like it, but
I’ve never heard anyone call him that. I’ve heard Rhino Hyno, though which is also pretty cool.
That fits him better unless he resmebles this blast from the past
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. "
George S Patton
by psu in the w-b on Jan 30, 2010 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
ok thats a bit strange IVAN Putskis gran kid????
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. "
George S Patton
by psu in the w-b on Jan 30, 2010 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
Pitt fans are delusional, Michigan fans are just douchebags.
My best friend’s brother goes to Michigan. I actually got him to admit that most of Michigan’s OMG11TITLES are incredibly meaningless He also thinks Tater Force is garbage. But on the other hand, he sees Denard Robinson as the next Pat White.
NittanyWhiteOut.com. Arguably the second best Penn State blog I know of.
I wish I owned Rambler Recycling
But more, I really wish I was as cool as Lenny Moore.
by ReadingRambler on Jan 31, 2010 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe they want to beat us more than anyone (save Ohio State and Notre Dame).
I’ve read enough comments by Michigan fans to know this is a common delusion of the Penn State fanbase. We are fifth, at best: Michigan would rather beat Michigan State, Notre Dame, Ohio State, and Wisconsin across most sports. In many situations they would prefer a win against Minnesota, Boston College, Miami of Ohio, or even Michigan Tech. They care about us only so much as we are relevant in obstructing their goals. An editorial point: the only bonus schadenfreude most of their fans get out of beating us is secondhand, based on how we collectively (and predictably) react after losing to them, which must be entertaining. I mean it’s obvious: they created a chant because they know it bothers us, and also that it makes the new piped-in music in Crisler more bearable.
The "most sports" angle is very true
I mean, we’ve never had the chance to build a rivalry in basketball for competitive reasons, and we definitely never had a chance in hockey seeing as we aren’t NCAA D-I, so what you’re saying makes a lot of sense.
But football wise, I have a hard time believing that they enjoy beating Sparty or Wisconsin any more or less than us.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jan 30, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
This is spot on
It’s a one way rivalry that they look upon with bemusement. Which pisses me off all the more.
Some people are born mediocre, some achieve mediocrity, and some people have mediocrity thrust upon them. - Joseph Heller
Well, I don't actually believe that Michigan is like Pitt
I just thought it was funny that they were chanting “We Own Penn State” in a game where they were playing Michigan State (a top 10 school they were playing at home who is supposedly one of their biggest rivals), and where few Penn State fans would be expected to be watching, and the only other school I can think of that does this is Pitt.
Plus, Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
Correct.
Pitt is now bigger and better than Michigan for the time being.
by ReadingRambler on Jan 30, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
Re: offensive line play
We were just as delusional before the 2009 season, saying that the guy we had coming in still had a decent amount of experience and should be good enough to account for their inexperience.
Right now both Pitt and Iowa are going through the same thing.
Iowa will be okay, though.
Poor Dion Lewis will drop to about 4.1 ypc, if that.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
Just imagine
If Pitt was coming off two seasons exactly like Michigan’s. You can be certain that Pitt fans would still insist that they were a far better team than PSU (even with blow-out losses to PSU both seasons). In fact, I’m pretty sure most Pitt fans would also say that for Pitts entire stretch of mediocrity (1981 to now), they were actually a far better, more talented and better coached team than PSU and that PSU only had a better record due to extremely easy scheduling.
I'm a grad student at Pitt
And I can assure you that this is EXACTLY what they say.
On the Royster/Shady argument: I fought 3 Pitt fans last year after they didn’t believe that Royster was averaging over a yard more per carry than Shady and I showed them on my blackberry. They proceeded to get angry when I told them Shady would average around 3.5 ypc in the Big Ten because he wasn’t playing defenses that make the Big XII look tough. They attacked, I took 2 out… 3rd got me good.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
Sometimes I'm amazed that I got out of Oakland without getting my ass kicked.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
Dude
We need to get you an Entourage. Might I be the first to suggest it NOT include PSUtopia. No, I take that back, he should be the first guy you call.
"We just forgot our pants. Nothing against the team or anything like that." -- take a guess
Alright...
I’m not excusing NickDawg for being obnoxious, but can we aleast acknowledge that you’re comparing a true freshman to a 4th year junior?
If Dion Lewis “gets the hype” it’s not because Pitt is “an inferior team with inferior depth,” it’s because he’s a goddamn Freshman.
Well you can't dispute the inferior depth part
If Pitt had more than a their featured back to rely on, Shady and Dion wouldn’t be toting the rock 300+ times, case and point, Evan Royster.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jan 30, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Get over it.
Both Deion Lewis and Shady McCoy are better than Royster. The trade off is that Penn State is better than Pitt.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
by jesse. on Jan 30, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No they're not
Especially not Shady. We’ll see how Dion does next year, but Shady was purely the product of his carries and the fact that no one else in the Pitt offense had a pulse.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jan 30, 2010 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
Fugi, c'mon.
Neither McCoy nor Royster are power runners. But McCoy is a much more shifty and talented player. Also, is it not interesting that McCoy did more with less than did Royster with more?
by ReadingRambler on Jan 31, 2010 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
Royster never made it past halftime in 2008
The dude ripped off 10 yard jaunts effortlessly. Not even Ingram this year could match that average.
Royster was the victim of how freaking good we were in ‘08. Even if the average had fallen off to 6 ypc, he’d still have been on an 1,800 yard pace with Shady’s carries.
Don’t YOU find it interesting that Shady touched the ball 117 more times than Royster and only ran for 232 yards more than Royster?
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jan 31, 2010 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, you can hardly say that Royster did "less" than McCoy
since he had a better per carry average. You can only run as many times as they let you. It would be different if McCoy had a better YPC AND more yardage, but he didn’t.
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 31, 2010 6:07 AM EST up reply actions
Ehh
I like Royster. I’ve seen all three kids play football. You can sell me whatever stats you want, but I’d definately take Lewis over Royster. Probably McCoy too. I don’t know that Lewis or McCoy would flourish in Penn State’s system, but I am pretty sure that Royster would not be gettiing 7 yards a carry at Pitt.
We have this discussion in recruting all the time, sometimes you have to ignore numbers and use your eyes. Royster is, and has been, a hell of a football player for us, but that Lewis kid is the real deal. Unless I miss my guess (and it wouldn’t be the first time) that kid is going to a Pro Bowl in the next six years.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
Your eyes aren't always correct either though. Its probably healthy to use both metrics
Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.
"Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth."
Like I said
The jury is out on Lewis. We’ll see what he does this year. He certainly could turn out to be the best of the three, but I want to see what he does behind a green line.
But as far as Shady goes, I never got the impression that he was ever as great as people made him out to be. He definitely wasn’t a Heisman candidate, just the same as Royster wasn’t.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jan 31, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Agree to Disagree
Royster put up good stats on a much less one-dimensional offense, despite the growing pains with the OL. He also did this in a conference that believes in defense. And while he didn’t play against UW, he also didn’t get the joy of playing against Purdue.
Lewis put up great stats with a ton of carries in a weak league, running behind an experienced OL. Would he have run the same way in the B10? Would Royster have run better against the Big East? Jury’s out, but here’s to guessing the stats would’ve been a LOT more even if the roles were reversed.
The last point I’m going to make is just a general comparison of the conferences. The Big East’s top 2 teams (Cincy and WVU) lost by a combined 39 points in their bowl games, to a 7-win FSU team and a disinterested UF team. Pitt squeaked out a 3-point win against UNC, the 5th best team in the 5th best conference.
Compare that to the Big Dogs in the Big Ten, and well, that tells me a lot about the divergent paths Royster and Lewis ran through (pun partially intended).
"We heard all that talk all week about the SEC and their speed, but we knew personally that they weren't nearly as tough as us."
-Tony Hunt
Hows it goin old friend?
Haven’t heard from you in a while
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jan 31, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Can't complain
I’d love to say I was out filming the Planet Earth series or something cool like that, but in reality life has just been getting in the way of my PSU obsession. I’ve been reading BSD a bit, just not really posting.
Oh, and Pitt still sucks, though SlingStone seems like a decent guy.
"We heard all that talk all week about the SEC and their speed, but we knew personally that they weren't nearly as tough as us."
-Tony Hunt
I completely agree with Fugi on this one.
At least as far as Shady.
I withhold verdict on Lewis for now.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
Jesse
ties up the thread wonderfully with logic as well without rancour or hate.
Well I mean
It’s a PittsBURGH, site, and I’m a Pittsburgh fan other than the college team, so that’s mostly why I poke around over there. But when i see the PSU stuff, it’s fun fodder, so…
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jan 31, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Royster probably couldn’t stay healthy enough to tote the ball as many times as Lewis and McCoy have in a single season. Durability has been, and will continue to be, an issue for Royster – especially at the next level.
Really?
Has he ever been injured? Missed a game? With the exception of the Rose Bowl, of course, I’m pretty sure he’s good for his 20 carries a game with no problem. You could probably push 30, but we’d prefer to have sets of fresh legs coming in. Lewis is a power back, he wears down a defense. If he only got 20 carries, he wouldn’t be as good.
NittanyWhiteOut.com. Arguably the second best Penn State blog I know of.
by Devon Edwards on Feb 1, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
I can't recall missing games
but Royster has had a lot of nagging injuries that have limited his carries. I don’t recall this being that big an issue in 2009, but I do in 2008
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 1, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Royster had a lot of great offense keeping off the field in 2008.
Why would we keep him in longer and force feed him carries to risk even more injury? We were mauling people, and that means keeping your top guy healthy as possible.
Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.
"Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth."
I may be remembering wrong
but weren’t those injuries deep muscle bruises or something? And wasn’t that in 2007 when we already had Kinlaw doing well, but were throwing Royster in for fun in some of the games? I can’t remember these “injuries” coming up in 2008, but I might just be forgetting. I know the issue was brought up a lot before 2008, but I can’t remember if that was based solely on the issues from 2007, which would make this 30 carry back argument a moo point.
In another thread I called Royster a "system tailback"
Royster got a reputation as fragile while playing behind Kinlaw, thus far, and knock wood, he’s been pretty reliable. But do you see taking a guy like Royster and banging him to the line of scrimage 22-28 times a game? I don’t.
Do you think the offensive game plan is different next year if Tony Hunt, or even Rodney Kinlaw, is our tailback? I think it is, and I think we’d be playing a different kind of football with Lewis or McCoy as well.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
well, it isn't like the Eagles have been running McCoy into the line, either
so it isn’t like Royster wouldn’t have any value in the pros.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 2, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t disagree, I think he does have value in the NFL – especially since he’s such a great receiver. I’ve never really paid much attention to his pass protection skills, aside from getting run over on the first offensive play against Ohio State. I just don’t see him as an every down back (granted, there seem to be fewer, now).
And who knows, maybe he’s a victim of numbers. I mean, look at the Easy, McCoo, LJ rotation. Once LJ had the lion’s share of the carries, his stock sky-rocketed.. Maybe the same is true here. And maybe the tread on his tires is less than other guys heading to the NFL. I don’t know. I just didn’t think he was a guy you could rely on to carry the ball 30 times
No, the Eagles aren't
Bryan Westbrook probably has something to say about that.
Pitt certainly wasn’t shy about it though.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
No, I don’t recall any missed time but I seem to recall him being a little gimpy a few times in 2007 when coming in to spell Kinlaw. Then, again it seemed to be an issue in 2008. I agree that you didn’t see it as much in 2009, but his carrries have really been limited.
I don’t think it’s a bad thing – like you said it means fresh legs. However, I can imagine that people will look at the fact that he’s had a lot of nickel and dime injuries and they’ve come while filling a, somewhat, limited role. I would like to see what he’d do with a thirty-carry-game, and whether he could sustain that oer a full season.
Don’t get me wrong – I love his running style – good balance, great vision, good pad level – but he seems to get knicked rather easily. And I wouldn’t have traded him for McCoy or Lewis. I just thinks that durability could be an issue when he takes the jump to the next level.
I agree to a point.
But, as to the limited carries, the purpose of the back is to get yards and points, and we know Joe doesn’t do much running up of the score.
I recall at least twice, once where he had 9 carries, and the other, 12, where he was pulled after a first half with 90+ yds. That’s 21 carries for over 180. When you get that kind of production, there’s no reason to push the kid if the team is dominating. You can’t fault him for that.
As for injuries, I agree – I seem to recall a few nicks, but only one that really took him out (USC). He also played 2 games this year with swine flu…
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
Granted I'm not a D1 athlete/any sort of athlete other than occasional vball and racquetball
but playing with swine flu must have been a bitch. I had it back in October, and I didn’t feel all that sick like I do with the regular flu (no fever, chills, etc.), but I’ve never been so weak. I remember walking up the steps of the west halls quad, and I could barely make it up.
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