Big Ten Preview and the Fall of Notre Dame
by spakajewia on Nov 18, 2010 10:01 AM EST
in B1G / BigTen
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PrintThere was an interesting article in the New York Times yesterday explaining that the Notre Dame-Army games at Yankee Stadium used to be such a big deal that during the Battle of the Bulge American soldiers asked unfamiliar faces what the score of the 1944 game between the teams was to detect German spies wearing American uniforms. Sixty-six years after #1 Army's 49-0 beatdown of #5 Notre Dame, the two teams meet in Yankee Stadium again this Saturday.
Only this time, a game between two unranked, middle-of-the-pack Big Ten teams -- Illinois and Northwestern -- is a bigger deal, at least according to ESPN's College Gameday. Some ND apologists argue that Gameday is only going to Wrigley Field for the Zook/NW game because that game's on ESPN, unlike the ND game, which is on NBC (7:00 kickoff). But that argument holds little water, as anyone who watched Gameday's appearance in Salt Lake City for the TCU-Utah game a few weeks ago can attest.
Notre Dame football has become a shell of what it used to be. Indeed, the scores of stories about the Yankee Stadium rivalry all remind the reader that Notre Dame is a lot like Army: a program that used to be great, but that now just has a great tradition. The ND faithful will insist that their program still can land great recruiting classes. But ND's highly-rated recruits are just another way of proving the Deon Butler Postulate: college players are best judged by what they do on the college gridiron, not by how they were rated by some guy who earns his living obsessing over the athletic prowess of teenagers.
The program at ND has been in free fall for some time, and Brian Kelly has not been the panacea that some, myself included, expected him to be. Between the tragic death of the student videographer, a home loss to Tulsa, and their 3rd loss in four year's against Navy, it's hard to put your finger on what's gone and continues to go wrong in South Bend. Personally, I think it all goes back to ND's firing of George O'Leary for lying on his resume about academic credentials that had little to do with his hiring. Between that and firing Ty Willingham for being black, Notre Dame made some rash personnel decisions that upset the football gods and banished the program into mediocrity.
All things considered, it's probably better that we ended up with Nebraska instead of the Irish in the Big Ten. Onto the games and the gambling:
Purdue Boilermakers at Michigan St Spartans (12:00, Big Ten Network) MSU -19.5; o/u 48
Michigan State's coming off a bye week, and Purdue is held together with duct tape. Big game for both teams: Sparty has to win to stay in the hunt for the conference championship, and despite a relentless string of injuries, Purdue could miraculously become bowl eligible if they win in Spartan Stadium and beat Indiana in their season finale next week. If Rob Henry, the one time third string quarterback who's made a McGloin-esque rise to become the best eligible quarterback for the Boilermakers, can play the whole game, I think Purdue might actually have a chance to win. But he doesn't, and they don't. I still like them to cover, though.
Prediction: MSU 27 - Purdue 10
Wisconsin Badgers at Michigan Wolverines (12:00, ESPN) wisc -4; o/u 67
Michigan seemed to turn a corner against Illinois, but they played awfully last week, turning the ball over 5 times and barely besting a beat-up Purdue team. Wisconsin looked suspect at the beginning of the year, but managed to win against weak competition before being upset by Sparty. Since then, they've run the table and looked impressive doing it, with wins against Iowa and Ohio State. They drubbed Indiana 83-20 last week, much like they drubbed Austin Peay 70-3 early in the season. The week after they destroyed AP, they lost to Michigan State. The week after they destroyed the Hoosiers, they're going to lose to Michigan.
Prediction: Michigan 35 - Wisconsin 31
Illinois Fighting Illini v. Northwestern Wildcats (at Wrigley Field; 3:30, ESPNU) ill -8; o/u 49
A big question mark in this one is how well Northwestern's Evan Watkins will be able to fill in for the injured Dan Persa, who leads the nation in passing accuracy and arguably deserves to win the Big Ten's offensive MVP this year even though he'll miss the final two games. Watkins is bigger than Persa, less of a threat to run, and a native Chicagoan, so he knows how big this game is. I think Watkins will play fine, though not exceptionally well. Another question is whether Illinois can rebound from consecutive losses to Michigan and Minnesota to become bowl eligible. At bottom, I think this one comes down to coaching, and there's little doubt in my mind that Pat Fitzgerald is better than Ron Zook. The game in the Bronx might be more historic, but the crowd at this one will be drunker.
Prediction: Northwestern 21 - Illinois 20
Ohio St Buckeyes at Iowa Hawkeyes (3:30, ABC/ESPN3) osu -3; o/u 48
The biggest game of the day in the Big Ten features the 9th ranked Buckeyes visiting Kinnick Stadium to take on the 20th ranked Hawkeyes. Tressel v. Ferentz; Pryor v. Stanzi; bad special teams v. worse special teams. Ohio State's won 6 of their last 7 in Iowa City, and won last year in overtime in Columbus in a game that Stanzi missed with an injury. But the Buckeyes are a paltry 2-1 on the road this year, losing to Wisconsin, keeping it close against Illinois, and crushing Minnesota. Iowa's defense rebounds after last week's poor showing and Stanzi has a career day. Pryor will make some plays with his feet, but the Buckeyes just aren't that much better than the rest of the league.
Prediction: Iowa 26 - Ohio State 24
Penn St. Nittany Lions v. Indiana Hoosiers (at FedEx Field; 12:00, BTN) psu -10; o/u 56.5
See the BSD staff picks tomorrow.
Last week: 3-2 Against the Spread; 3-2 Straight up; Overall: 17-18 ATS; 24-11 SU
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Ty Willingham
My domer-hater credentials are impeccable, but it’s incredibly unfair to say ND fired him for being black. They fired him for being mediocre, which he was. Washington later did the same.
True, True.
I don’t know how the wheels fell off at Washington. But maybe he didn’t have enough time at ND. We can look to what Charlie did with his recruits as proof of that.
Dark Knight feeling, die and be a hero-or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.-Jay-Z
Not enough time...
That I agree with. I thought they cut him loose too soon and if memory serves me correctly I believe he was the first ND coach whose contract was not fully honored (even the disaster that was Gerry Faust got to stay the full length of his contract).
I honestly don’t think Ty would’ve succeeded at ND long term (he failed at Stanford, too) because truth is he’s just not that good of a coach. But I do think they wronged him by not letting him work his full contract. But I don’t think his firing had anything at all to do with race.
Good point about Weis winning with Ty’s recruits. Weis was a horrible coach and probably the most overrated coach of all time. He was supposedly an “offensive genius” from his work in NE….yeah, well it’s a little easier to be a genius when you “know the questions” ahead of time (the cheating in NE).
The real problem with Weis was his attitude.
He was so obnoxious and such a loudmouth that when he couldn’t live up to the hype, he did himself far more harm than good. Rex Ryan’s going to find that out sooner or later, so he just better keep winning as long as possible. It’s a long way down when people just want to laugh as you fall.
As a kid, I only caught the tail end of the ND series. PSU and ND were the only options for kids in Central Jersey to cheer for in football, and most of us cheered for both since they never played each other. Always like Willingham. Weis and the Subway Alums really ruined that program for me.
I do like Kelly though. I don’t have a problem with the way he left UC. He was pretty honest about the entire ordeal, and I respect that. I think he’s a good coach and will be reasonably successful, but who really knows what that means in this era.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't say he handled leaving UC perfectly
but the way coaching in college football is, it seems like he did it about as well as possible. Your options are basically never leave your program (until fired), or leave for another program where your options are now to either leave early to increase your chances at success while possibly screwing over your old job, or to stick around, in which case you possibly screw over your new job PLUS you might not get hired in the first place.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
I liked him before that kid died.
I know they haven’t released many details but most football coaches are control freaks. I have a hard time imagining a situation where he didn’t know he was up there. So if he’s even partly responsible for his death, then IMO he’s bigger scum than RR or Saban or Kiffin. While piles of douche, none of them have killed anybody.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
Ditto. We'll have to see how it plays out.
It’s uncomfortable to speculate. I know he’s a good coach and I’ve liked hearing him interviewed. There’s almost no doubt in my mind that somebody made that kid stay up there in that wind. Just a matter of figuring out where it came from now.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
just speculation
and I haven’t really followed it that closely, but the kid also could have just been super ambitious or didn’t want to act “weak” by complaining and wanting to come down. Sure, they may not have actively told him to get down, but that doesn’t mean they forced him to stay up, either.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
Kid was texting that he was terrified just before it happened.
So I doubt he was trying to act tough.
A couple days before it happened Tressel moved practice indoors and he told reporters one of the main reasons was because they didn’t want kid up in the lift in the winds they were having. Also read that OSU and PSU (and probably others) have a policy that they don’t use the lift when winds are over 28 MPH…pretty sure the winds in ND were gusting to 40 or 50.
It never should’ve happened. Somebody in charge should’ve known better.
agree completely
but just because he was terrified doesn’t mean he actually complained to someone other than texting his friends that he was terrified.
Again, I don’t actually know the story, but just because the kid was up there doesn’t mean he was forced to be up there. Yes, they should have told him to come down, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they told him to stay up (which they may have, but that’s not the point I was trying to make).
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
I honestly don't know either.
So I should probably just keep my mouth shut about it.
This, a million times
Weis had a horrible attitude, and felt entitled to a lot of things.
A close personal friend’s father gathered a bunch of Notre Dame Alumni together (himself included) to raise money for the Football program. He took the check over to deliver it to Weis himself. All he wanted was to give a check and get a “Thanks”/photo with Weis.
Instead, when he got there for his scheduled appointment (with Weis), the secretary called Weis, and Weis (through the phone) said for the guy to just leave it with the Secretary.
You can’t be a college coach and blow off alumni like that. And from the stories that have been shared, that’s exactly what he did.
But he met with a dying kid!
(And made sure the tv cameras were there to capture it.)
And he ALMOST beat USC…..ALMOST!!! And I believe USC won the NC that year so that made Notre Dame ALMOST the national champs.
U$C lost to Texas that year anyway
"Personal Attack"- R. Aceto
by Bob Sacamano on Nov 18, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
I would have walked out with the check right there
and consulted with my fellow alumni on how to actually handle the $
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
i was being sarcastic
over course they didn’t fire him for being black.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
no but they were a lot less patient with him than the white guys
Foust, Davies, Weiss
eff it, I'm going derp
yeah
but they hired him, too, which was a progressive move considering the dearth of black head coaches then (and now) in major college football.
I remember that debate well—Whitlock was the chief man playing the race card on that firing. I was assuming folks also remembered it and also realized that it was hyperbolical to say that nd fired him for being black. maybe i assumed too much
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
anything to demean ND a little is fine with me.
sanctimonious grumpyheads that most of their fans are.
eff it, I'm going derp
the race card is the only one Whitlock has.
Everything looks more important when written in gray italics.
I haven't read him in years, so I don't know
but thats all every article he wrote ended up being about. It drove me crazy.
Everything looks more important when written in gray italics.
This.
I hate blaming race for problems/using race for advantage, but Ty was certainly on a shorter leash than any of the other guys.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
Short leashes for all
I don’t know if anyone outside of ND can say for certain whether or not race played a factor, but I think it had more to do with the overall shorter leashes of coaching in general in CFB. Even looking back through PSU history you will see some stretches of 2 to 4 loss teams and the occasional 6-5. I wasn’t alive at the time so I can’t compare the fan grumbling of then to now, but guys like Les Miles and any ND coach for the last 20 years have to deal with the ever dreadful expectations of championship seasons year in and year out, and those unrealistic expectations of college kids gets a lot of guys sacked a lot quicker IMO.
by wek5000lion09 on Nov 18, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Absolutely. And Miles has a MNC!
Scary to think that a world in which college coaches lose 3 games is a world in which their jobs are in serious jeopardy. That only ends up driving up the cost of coaches. At some point, that house of cards is bound to come tumbling down.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Notre Dame's answer
was joining the Big 10. There could have been something worked out in terms of their “national schedule” but they chose the status quo instead of trying to pave their way in an uncertain landscape.
Now their only hope is to schedule enough middle of the road teams that maybe one year they can sneak into a BCS game. Much like us though, the college football world isn’t going to wait for them to become “elite” again. A great man once said, “If you’re not getting better, you’re getting worse”.
Dark Knight feeling, die and be a hero-or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.-Jay-Z
At first I wanted to award you a Laurinitis tackle for just piling on ND
Then you made me realize how far ND has fallen. I loathe the domer arrogance and take some pleasure in their downfall but at this point they have become completely irrelevant. They only ND news I’ve noticed in the last two months is due to the tragic death of the videographer. I couldn’t have told you they were playing Army this week and don’t know if they’ve played USC yet this year.
With Fat Charlie at least there was interest in watching them wallow in their misery, with Kelly there’s only apathy. Long may they rot.
I've seen 3 minutes of ND this year
I was bar hopping during Michigan weekend and saw they were playing someone and missed an extra point or something – I dunno.
Wake me up when they are relevant.
similarly I only saw them lose to Tulsa
with the dumb decision to go for the TD when all they needed was a FG. One INT later and I was laughing my ass off.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Disagree with a pair of the picks.
I think Wiscy will run run run and minimize the amount of time Denard can do any damage. The Badgers win by a comfortable 2 TDs.
Iowa-Ohio State will be a defensive struggle. Minus the help from their defense and Lady Luck, Ohio State didn’t score that many offensive points against us. Pryor’s stats were pedestrian. And I can’t see Stanzi and Co doing all that well against OSU’s defense. My gut is telling me OSU though, 17-14.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
I can't believe the number of people picking Michigan this week.
Bielema must rub a lot of people the wrong way, because this matchup heavily favors Bucky. I honestly see Michigan keeping it close for about a half before Wisco runs over, under, around and through them.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
Look what we did to them rushing
I can only imagine what Wisconsin will do.
Everything looks more important when written in gray italics.
The Indiana and Michigan defenses are very similar
in capability. I don’t get the people thinking Michigan steps up and beats a winning program this week either. It would be funny to see an 84-49 score though!
eff it, I'm going derp
Thanks for doming Iowa with the favorable prediction.
I’m not sold that Iowa is that much more suited to deal with tOSU’s offense than they were against AZ, IU or jNW (I blame ST for the loss against UW) but the biggest problem hasn’t been straight-up head-to-head, it’s been depth. Iowa’s late defensive collapses against the aforementioned teams (IU should have won) have come entirely because the defense was completely gassed. This is a long-running theme with Iowa D’s. Excellent starters, no one in relief.
As for the caption’s prediction that the crowd at Clark and Addison will be drunker than that at Yankee Stadium, that’s true of that intersection even when there isn’t a game. I work down the street and am (unfortunately) all too familiar with this concept.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
That seemed to be our problem too.
the biggest problem hasn’t been straight-up head-to-head, it’s been depth.
Injuries and a ton of youth acting as depth really hurt us last week on defense in the second half.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
the biggest problem hasn’t been straight-up head-to-head, it’s been depth.
TWSS.
Somebody make a play.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 18, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
If Iowa wins, I think it will be like so:
Iowa jumps out to an early lead, their defense starts to falter, but the experience of Stanzi (compared to the inexperience of McGloin) proves to be a huge difference. It’s Senior Day, so there should be some of SMA’s swagger for once, dang it.
"The coaches don't know what they're doing! Start Newsome!"
Beat Sam Lickliter.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 18, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
You're right
I’ve never seen Stanzi throw a costly interception in a tight spot since he became experienced. Last week in Chicago never happened.
by kijana's acl on Nov 19, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
These neutral site games are great for college football.
It’s exciting to see teams play in Yankee Stadium and Wrigley. It brings added attention to teams that would normally be getting none of it, and the atmosphere will be very cool.
Just visited Fenway last weekend, actually watched our game at Cask n’ Flagon. Great venue, awesome location. I don’t know how the dimensions of the field would fit, but I’d love to see BC host a game in Fenway against a team like FSU or Miami.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
BC couldn't fill Fenway.
And the Patriots used to play there, so it would fit.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 18, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
I actually didn't realize the Pats used to play there.
Very cool. I imagine that’s part of the reason the wall in right-center is shaped the way it is.
It’s true that maybe BC wouldn’t fill Fenway, but maybe with the right opponent? A national team that travels well? Like…..us? :)
The place is just so historic that I think it’d make an amazing one-shot deal for two teams. Even as a Yankee fan, I’d be excited to watch it, just like when hockey was there last winter.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
and we know JayPa would love the game there
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
We should do one neutral site game a year all around baseball stadiums.
We can do one at Fenway, Yankee Stadium, CitiField, Citizen’s Bank, Camden Yards.
It’d never happen, but at least it’d be cool.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
I think it would get old pretty quickly.
Also, who is giving up the home game? Better not be us. You are talking about a lot of lost ticket sales.
I think if our “premier” non-con home and home turned into the road half being at Camden (Maryland?), Yankee Stadium (Rutgers?) that would be cool.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 18, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed. We could never be the home game, but it'd be
a great set of away games.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
I know, it would fill up.
I just can’t stand to let a chance to knock BC go by. I get a groupon offer every week (that they’re home) to buy BC football tickets for $10.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 18, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
Re: Thanks for doming Iowa
Oh noes, Iowa is now Notre Dame?
The offensive line was inspired by McGloin.
That's beer-lover's karma.
We don’t attack our own, we only make them buy the next round.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Nov 18, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Hopefully I actually get a YFDI up this week.
I was so busy planning for the BHGP shindig at my house last week that I ran out of time. We had a 1/2 keg of Half Acre Daisy Cutter Pale Ale. Good time had by all…until the game.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Nov 18, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, man
Been thinkin about how that went, but haven’t had a chance to read yet. That’s awesome you got so many buds together, total bummer the game didn’t cooperate.
The offensive line was inspired by McGloin.
Then my whole family came down with the 48-hour stomach flu.
So it’s been a banner week for the McCann’t household.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Nov 18, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
JJ Watt is going to go all Ryan Kerrigan this week.
Except he won’t be as good because Kerrigan is the best player in the conference.
"The coaches don't know what they're doing! Start Newsome!"
Beat Sam Lickliter.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 18, 2010 11:43 AM EST reply actions
This.
If AC somehow (bafflingly) wins the award he’d better ship it straight to West Lafayette.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Nov 18, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Hey, McCann't?
Can Clayborn do this or is Ferenz too straight laced?
"The coaches don't know what they're doing! Start Newsome!"
Beat Sam Lickliter.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 18, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
You don't make it out of camp if you can't do that in IC.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Nov 18, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Good.
I want some Hokey Pokey and some High Porch Picnics on Saturday.
I want the Hawks to go Full Coach Fry on Saturday. Pull those six shooters and let’s go to work.
"The coaches don't know what they're doing! Start Newsome!"
Beat Sam Lickliter.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 18, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
serious question here...
…do we have a deal with ND on our future sked?
I know we have bama next year, then Virginia sometime way out there
anyone else?
We set up a home and home with Nebraska. I'm not sure when it ends.
BIG TEN SCHEDULE IS WEAK! UKRAINE IS NOT WEAK!
@EpicTripod
SBN - Pittsburgh
Success With Honor
by Jeff Junstrom on Nov 18, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Future OOC opponents comparable to Notre Dame:
Neutral site Syracuse in 2013
Temple through 2016
Virginia 2012 and 2013
Navy in 2012 (instead of a lower subdivision opponent)
If Penn State is not careful, it could easily end up like Notre Dame
but with inferior academics.
@EpicTripod
SBN - Pittsburgh
Success With Honor
by Jeff Junstrom on Nov 18, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
FALSE
The only thing superior about the academics at Notre Dame is the pompous and pretentious attitude that surrounds them.
Now granted this may not be your favorite measure of “academic standards,” but I have recruited at Notre Dame and PSU both and I am consistently flabbergasted by the lack of well-roundedness (sp?) that we see and receive from ND recruits. They have no academic flexibility (meaning that they cannot take semesters off to go abroad, gain industry experience, etc) and the curriculum only facilitates the idea that if you pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a private Catholic education, you deserve a damn good job.
I don't agree
Penn State has the security of conference affiliation. Notre Dame is turning down bowl games because the travel costs outweigh the payout. They are dependant on their NBC contract lasting forever, which I can’t see happening.
I could see Penn State making a poor coaching decision and having to suffer a few years of mediocre football, but in my opinion Notre Dame is in a shakey financial situation. Sure, they have alumni that donate tons of money, but you don’t see little kids running around in PA wearing Notre Dame jerseys like you did 25 years ago. Their fan base is aging and approaching death. They do not have the national appeal they once did. And once they lose that they are just a small private school in Indiana. Penn State has millions of alumni that come with being a premier state school.
Maybe we are talking about two different things -money and relevance in CFb
Yes, we have conference affiliation and all the $$$ and cache that comes with it…but so does Illinois, Purdue and the rest of the big ten bottom feeders. I’m not worried about PSU’s athletic department financially.
What I am sayin is that our relevance on the nation stage with regard to college football could quickly go on the decline (well, it already has started) for a number of reasons:
1. We are synonomous with JoePa – when he goes, we loes a lot of our identity
2. We haven’t been a good program over the last decade (strike up the “elite” debate, but it’s tru when looking at the qulaity of wins and accomplishments of the program)
3. We don’t recruit nationally
Florida lost its identity when The Ol Ball Coach left.
How’s that working out for them? There’s a reason that PSU is one of only a handful of programs to eclipse 800 wins. There will be ups and downs but if you seriously think that the program will end up like ND, you’re more dilusional than the kool aid drinkers. Michigan is pretty bad right now but sooner or later, they’ll be back on top. The college game has moved away from Independents. Until ND realizes that, they’re in trouble.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
Florida is a program in the south, which has a growing population and is one
of the best high school football programs in the country. The don’t need to recruit nationally, but if they had to, they could.
Michigan is another program that pulls recruits nationally. They will be fine.
PSU can barely keep the top talent in state. We don’t get the best kids in NJ, or VA like we used to either…and when we do, the product doesn’t translate well on the field.
I’m by no means preaching the sky is falling, but there are some significant hurdles to overcome in the near future and the longer JoePa and his dinosaurs stay, the higher those hurdles get.
Who the hell said it was a slow week at BSD?
Let’s get it crack-a-lackin’!!!!
Thanks brd119.
Now, onto your point about Joe and the old staff, I’m in a tight spot. I think Joe has earned the right to stay as long as he wants, but I also am excited for a new regime to get in there and get this transition over with.
Pretty much exactly how I feel...but Joe is doing his legacy, and the program,
a disservice by sticking around as long as he has.
At this point I am more concerned for his well being, becuase he seems absolutely lost and confused at pressers.
I did, in another thread.
2010 PSU Football......"It can maybe snowball into something that can catch fire..."
by Artiefufkin10 on Nov 18, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
PSU doesn't recruit nationally
because Joe never took that approach. Hasn’t needed to. So it will be the incoming coach/staff to decide how to recruit and what to target.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
Cal, Miami, Texas, OSU, Va Tech, Oklahoma, Texas Tech, Oregon, USC, Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Michigan, Nebraska, etc., all seem to be able to manage. I think PSU will be ok. Just a hunch.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
This is why SBNation needs an "unrec" action.
I can't believe I only have 4 hours to tailgate. Somehow this is Lee Corso's fault.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 18, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Hahahahahaha
you must be joking. You just told a funny right?
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
2 Big 10 championships
in the last 5 years? 2 controversial seconds away from an undefeated season in 2005. A questionable pass interference call away from a MNC game appearance in 2008? Yet I’m dilusional? Please explain to me how PSU isn’t good?
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
OK, Kansas had a similar run recently
some we’re comparable to Kansas. YAY!!!!!!!!!!
This is a lie
Kansas has not won any Big 12 football championships in the past 15 years, let alone five.
Friend
You’ll learn that he will not let such things like facts or statistics cloud his judgement.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
Would that I had read the below first:
How has Va Tech never been elite?
Seriously? Did he realize that he was talking about college football?
Even if PSU had played in the 2008 MNC
would you still consider PSU, not good? I know this is futile but honestly, if they did make it there, or even won, would that be enough for you?
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
Uh, if it's so hard then why bother doing it?
Have they stopped playing quality football on the eastern seaboard?
You contradict yourself. We don’t recruit nationally. But if the next coaching staff wants to try, it’s too difficult. The logic is circular.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
A) Penn State does recruit nationally,
maybe not as widely as other schools, but they’ve gotten some kids from Texas, so there.
2) Penn State recruits internationally. That’s why they picked up that Canadian kid. National recruiting is so passe.
I can't believe I only have 4 hours to tailgate. Somehow this is Lee Corso's fault.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 18, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
You didn't realize
that NC or Conn were border states?
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
what?
Colasanti is from Michigan, Bolden is from Michigan, Lynn is from Texas, Barham is from NC, Fera is from Texas, Mauti is from Louisiana, Suhey is from Illinois.
Those states border “border states”, does that mean they arent national?
My Pennsylvania map
has all of those states on the border. My PA map is from 1624.
by kijana's acl on Nov 19, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
And can we please stop with this "PSU doesn't keep in-state talent" nonsense.
Someone tell me why I should care. You know where the vast majority of that “in-state talent” went? Pittsburgh. You know who’s mediocre at best? Pittsburgh.
You can play this game all day. “We don’t get the top kids out of VA and NJ.” NY and Maryland have been excellent to us over the past few years; so has Delaware. We’ve been able to find kids everywhere. I don’t understand why we should keep ourselves in this neat little box known as Pennsylvania/NJ/Virginia.
Not only that, but define “recruiting nationally.” It takes more resources and a serious commitment to have a shot at kids outside of a 4 hour radius. You want us to go recruit in California or Texas because it’s the hot place to be, but there are plenty of good players in our own backyard that take less time, meaning we can focus our energies more directly on more talent.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
False. We get no talent from anywhere outside of Pennsylvania.
Plus, we can’t keep the top kids in PA. We’re lucky to even field a full roster.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
I know, recruiting nationally actually requires a head coach and staff
that are willing to leave State College
But with a new staff, it'll be too hard to recruit nationally even if they leave their offices, right?
Why bother even trying?
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
You did!
“We don’t recruit nationally, that’s a problem.” “Maybe we don’t have to because there’s plenty of talent around us. But maybe a new staff will.” “Do you know how hard that’s going to be?”
I don’t know about you, but the implication of your last comment is basically telling people that it’s very difficult to recruit nationally and it probably can’t be done successfully. So it stands to reason that we should focus our energies by recruiting locally. But that’s not good enough for you either, since we don’t get every piece of talent from Pennsylvania and Virginia, and the other places we do recruit kids from aren’t worth discussing.
So what exactly do you want us to do? If we recruit locally, you complain. If I suggest that a new staff, which you concede that you want, might start recruiting nationally, you already go negative by suggesting that it’s really hard. What can Penn State do to please you?
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
You must not read all of my posts
I simply stated that jump starting a national recruiting strategy is not going to be easy, whereas you seem to think it’ll be no problem
Nobody said that it would be easy
All that was said, is that a new staff may decide to approach recruiting nationally. Like Adam said earlier, you keep changing your position.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
I clearly never said that.
In fact, quoting what I said about national recruiting, was this…
Not only that, but define "recruiting nationally." It takes more resources and a serious commitment to have a shot at kids outside of a 4 hour radius. You want us to go recruit in California or Texas because it’s the hot place to be, but there are plenty of good players in our own backyard that take less time, meaning we can focus our energies more directly on more talent.
So yes, recruiting nationally is very difficult. Which is why I consider recruiting from Michigan to the east and from New England down to Carolina to be a much more fruitful venture. I’m merely pointing out circular logic and the poor structure of your own arguments.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Nah, worth it.
I used to think that ignoring nonsense was the best option, but it turns out that ignoring it only encourages that behavior. If nothing else, it’s important to set the record straight and point out inconsistency.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree with your first sentence
But the second one has merit imho.
The offensive line was inspired by McGloin.
I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 19, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know about you
But I was a small guy in Junior High, smaller and smarter than the bullies. Ignoring rarely encouraged behavior like engagement did.
But that’s no disrespect to the hard work you’ve done in this thread (sentence #2), some of it perhaps important.
As to the nonsense in question, I’d guess its proprietor is more likely to be encouraged by the volume of comments and reactions to his flame than dissuaded.
The offensive line was inspired by McGloin.
if you noticed I have stayed away from the fray. I have had my fill brd. He is either a complete idiot or just here to flame. Sometimes he can make an okay arguement, not that I agree but its still worthy, while others he just is completely rediculous, these far outweighing the former. He gives you good practice debating if you are into that sort of thing. I’ve been married for 25 yrs, successfully too, and really don’t need to debate a flamer here.
eff it, I'm going derp
You're right.
I’m mostly concerned about the second sentence anyway. When someone is spewing thoughts unchallenged, he has far too much space to influence others. His arguments are circular and nonsensical, but not countering them gives the impression that they’re (a) right and (b) we don’t care enough to refute it.
At first I was willing to engage because there are arguments that can be made that the program isn’t as successful as it could be. I think a lot of those have merit, but it’s a matter of weighing priorities. It’s fine if we don’t share the exact same priorities, but Penn State has very specific values that all of us should share. The problem here is that the commenter doesn’t seem to share our values or even have any kind of perspective.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 19, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
that's the thing
we probably aren’t elite right now, but there are only maybe 4 or 5 teams in the country that I’d consider elite right now, and a lot of them wouldn’t have fit the definition 5 years ago…it would have been a different set of teams, and the same 5 years back.
PSU has been in that set before, and when they aren’t in the set (including now), are typically in the handful of teams right behind the “elite” teams. Then add in that PSU maintains that status while doing things none of the other teams even attempt, and I’m quite happy with the status.
As others have mentioned, things will likely change after Paterno is gone, but hopefully the only thing that changes is that we get more wins.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 19, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
"Elite" is just too elusive.
It’s a fine kind of thing to say in any one given year, but the perception of “elite” does not match reality because, outside of your own conference, you pay more attention to those teams only when they are up. It leads to the perception that some programs are better than they are in reality. The 4 loss seasons that get in the way, like ours in 06-07, are only glaring when you are a fan of that team.
Some people are not self-aware enough to make that connection.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 19, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
there is definitely something to that
Ever time another school is elite we notice them, but don’t usually notice them when they are not, therefore nearly every time we notice another school they are elite, making it appear that they are always elite.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 19, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Paging Longhorns and Gators...
Paging Longhorns and Gators, you are wanted in E. Lansing by one, JuggerNitt to prove a point.
"I have my Joe Paterno autograph already, but I don’t know that I’d begrudge anybody else from getting theirs no matter their age. That’s kind of like meeting Winston Churchill." jesse. @ BSD
who are they?
clearly Oregon, Auburn, Boise St, and TCU are the elite schools. Always have been and always will be.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 19, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
and PSU inBOSSton
"I have my Joe Paterno autograph already, but I don’t know that I’d begrudge anybody else from getting theirs no matter their age. That’s kind of like meeting Winston Churchill." jesse. @ BSD
exactly about how many resources it takes
I just read an article that Ohio State needs a BCS game this year because they are dying for the payout as they spent something like 32 million dollars on their program this year
Come on, this is insane.
It’s just as insane as thinking that Michigan will be down forever.
Did everyone really think Nebraska, Southern Cal, Texas, and Oklahoma would be down forever? These are football school. They make their money and their brand name off of football.
PSU, tOSU, and Michigan will all have down years/periods. But Penn State funds way too many things off of the football program’s success to be irrelevant for long periods of time. And suggesting that we haven’t been a “good” program over the last decade is just stretching the bounds of reality. The 4 down years were a terrible disgrace, but we’ve won conference titles and one BCS game and all other bowls.
I don’t have the energy to argue this. We’ve now gone from arguing whether we’re “elite” to whether we’re even “good”? This is totally crazy.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Again, some of the BEST high school football in the country is played
in California, Florida and Texas…and Oklahoma gets plenty of Texas recruits. While they have had down year due to some poor coaching staffs and violations, with the local pipeline of talent they have at their disposal, it was inevitable that theyse pregraoms would be back on top.
The same can’t be said for PSU. State population is declining. PA high school football is declining. We don’t recruit nationally – that is going to catch up with us.
And we abolsutely have not been an elite program the past decade by whatever measure you’d like to use. Wins against our peers? Big Ten titles? Winning seasons?
I admire your one man fight
and again, thank you for stoking the fires, someone was saying it was slow this week
i'm sure there are
but there are tens of thousands who don’t want to sacrifice Joe’s values and practices when he leaves
okay, my time is about up on this thread
what exactly is your point here?
Joe is dragging out his retirement too long? I agree, but I also think he gets to stay as long as he wants, tight spot
PSU faces significant hurdles in coming years? agree, next coach could be a huge success or flop. odds are actually probably in favor of the flop
what else…we need to recruit nationally? sure, I’m down
we want to still hold a high academic and behavior standard? check
You forgot to turn your "Caps Lock" key off
/personal attack?
"Personal Attack"- R. Aceto
by Bob Sacamano on Nov 18, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Say hi to Texas.
No seriously, you’ll be able to say hi to the entire team at our bowl game because they’ll be watching from the stands.
Collyer is right. This is asinine.
"The coaches don't know what they're doing! Start Newsome!"
Beat Sam Lickliter.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 18, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
You're moving the goalposts again, which I suppose is fine,
although your argument is flawed. You suggested we haven’t been “good” by any measure. That’s fundamentally and egregiously incorrect and design to provoke a response. Now that you’ve provoked it, you’re walking it back by going back to a tired, cliche and subjective argument about whether we’re “elite.” Define elite. Define our peers. Define parity. Who’s elite this year is miles away from who was elite last year, or the year before, or the year before.
You can attempt to argue population trends if you want, but it’s still basically non-sensical. The trends haven’t stopped people from playing football entirely, and there’s plenty of talent between Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, NJ, NY, all of New England, Delaware, Maryland, the DC-Metro area, rural Virginia and the Carolinas to field a solid team. Which we’ve done on a regular basis since the 1950s. If you want to take 4 outlier years and extrapolate that into a nightmare scenario for this school, be my guest, but it’s a ridiculous argument and I’m not going to go along with it.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
How I view it
Peers – State schools with tradtioanl football prowess (for example, Iowa, Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin)
Elite – A combination of the following in a ten year period: playing for a national title at least once, having multiple conference titles, winning record against your peers
BTW, look up our record against Iowa, Michican and OSU
since we’ve joined the big ten…and remind me how many conference/national titles we’ve won in that time?
Three conference titles, one undefeated season.
Don’t want to look up the record, though – too time consuming.
My mojo is broken :o(
Over a 19 year period, that's not elite to me
and our record against those teams is putrid
Can't you make that argument about most teams, though?
To use your own example of Iowa, they’ve lost 11 out of 12 to the Buckeyes and are owned by Northwestern. Wisconsin has gotten blasted by PSU more than a few times we’ve played them. Texas used to get pounded by Oklahoma every year.
Your definition of “elite” is severely limiting, and it probably should be. There are almost no schools that fit your description. That’s fine. We’re not “elite.” But to suggest that we’re not good, or, as you put it further up the thread, “not ok,” is ridiculous on it’s face. Make complaints, get countered, move goalposts, lather/rinse/repeat.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I can rattle of the following off the top of my head
OU
Florida
Texas
OSU
Michigan
USC
Alabama
Boise St
Miami
FSU
Va Tech
What are those team's records this year?
Other than Boise State (our field is blue), Alabama probably has the best record and has lost two games. And VA Tech has NEVER been elite.
My mojo is broken :o(
know who else plays elite football?
the Pittsburgh Steelers. They also would have probably dominated the Pac-10 and won a few MNCs. But we try to limit the discussion of college football to non-professional (read unpaid) teams.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
Does the fact that Bush got paid make a difference
with regard to his skill on the field?
You're not seriously this dense, are you?
What if paying Reggie Bush meant the difference between him going to USC or somewhere else that recruited him? What if, because USC lacked institutional control, there were many players on that team that were in the same situation?
USC was USC because they were cutting corners. No, it doesn’t make a difference in the actual skill on the field, but they wouldn’t have fielded that squad without cutting those corners. Why should that count for anything?
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
I, like Adam, am surprised you are saying this.
Seriously, if the University of Pittsburgh decided to pay the Pittsburgh Steelers to just play their games for them, ignoring all NCAA violations, would you then say that Pitt has a better college football team than Penn State?
If I’m in a foot race and decide to shoot all my competitors in the leg during the race, are you going to deny that I’m the fastest man in the race?
It is at this point that I realize you are being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative (or being dense for the sake of being dense).
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 19, 2010 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
thank you
make me a list of teams with 80% graduation rates for football
there are people that still believe in the concept of student athlete, I happen to be one of them. So is Joe Paterno.
Who cares? We're talking football, not grad rates
And it is not like we are Stanford, Northwestern or Cal
We care.
You can win and graduate players. That’s kind of the whole thing at this school. That’s why USC’s success is nice, but doesn’t matter. They’re actually on probation for it.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Former Penn State players who aren't playing pro football care.
My mojo is broken :o(
by Paige2PSU on Nov 18, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I just said, I care.
And so does Joe Paterno.
Now you’re just being a douchea.
I thought you left anyway
by hbeach08 on Nov 18, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'll rec all 3 of these
because WE CARE. WE ARE….PENN STATE. We are not a football factory with questionable morals, ala USC, tOSU, the entire SEC, etc. Joe still believes in the concepts he set forth in the Grand Experiment. These young men are still students first in the mind of our football coach. And one of my greatest PSU football fears is that whoever succeeds Joe won’t hold these kids, alums, and supporters to that level of acceptable behavior.
by IndianaLion on Nov 18, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
The Grand Experiment only works when you win
Questionable morals? You mean like when kids get arrested for DUIs and assaults and magically find their way onto the field in 2 games? Or those 30-some-odd arrests earleir this decade. Are those the morals you are talking about?
WE DO WIN.
I’m not going to go over our overall record again. If we’re not “elite” according to your personal definition, that’s your problem, but denying that we’re a “good” program or better than “OK” is such a dramatic overstatement as to completely lack credibility.
Most of those “30-some-odd arrests” earlier this decade were for things like underage drinking and similar, minimal crimes. While I’ll agree that football players should be careful with their extra curriculars (since they have much more to lose than the average student and also serve as role models in the community), this is hardly the stuff that discredits a program. Tennessee had athletes ROB A CONVENIENCE STORE, for God’s sake. For the record, I think Joe’s reaction to the Tony Johnson incident were antiquated and embarrassing. That’s basically the one incident where I believe he handled the situation poorly.
I suppose you can deny success on the field if you want (although I can’t see why you’d want to). It is literally impossible to quantify Joe Paterno’s (and the entire Penn State program’s) impact on the lives of the young men who play under the lights. Again, to boil it down to generalities and nonsense intended to denigrate a living legend and his accomplishments does nothing except put your own credibility on the line.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
True, we are an OK program
but not really a “good” one on the the field. We have the history, financials, fanbase, tradition, and facilities…but that does not translate to what it should on the field.
It sounds like your definition of good,
is a conference championship every year. That’s not good, that’s excellent. And I think excellent > good last time I checked.
My mojo is broken :o(
How has Va Tech never been elite?
They’ve played for national titles, have more BCS bowl game appearances and conference titles than PSU has over the past 18 years
They also play in a conference
called the Big East. If PSU was there, they’d have as many, if not more Conference Championships.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
ACC I mean
whatever. It’s the same argument. That conference is no Big 10
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
They've played for ONE national title (and lost).
They’ve won the ACC, notoriously considered one of the weakest major conferences in college football. They lost to an FCS school this year, and regularly collapse during late-October and November.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
According to wiki answers,
Va Tech has never won a NCAA championship in any team sport!
My mojo is broken :o(
Using Vtech as a measuring stick is poor at best
I can’t think of any Penn State fan (aside from one here) who has ever said “man, I wish we could be like Virginia Tech” and really meant it. Never.
Everything looks more important when written in gray italics.
Which is all more than PSU has accomplished
Am I saying we want to aspire to be Vatech? No. But they’re done more than PSU has in the past decade..that is undeniable.
they played in the two worst conferences in NCAA history
seriously, they lost to James Madison and then came back and marched through the ACC. i dont know that theyve done more than PSU in the last decade either.
They lost to Boise State, too.
So I guess that makes Boise State even MORE elite!
My mojo is broken :o(
Over the past 10 years, on the field,
BSU has been a much better program than PSU.
It's impossible to compare BSU and Penn State.
It’s a much different level of competition. They may have one or two games a year against tough opponents, whereas as we usually play 2-3 cupcakes and the rest are better than Boise State. I think you’re delusional or you just like to argue. You never say anything good about Penn State, so why do you even come on here?
My mojo is broken :o(
Don't attack his credibility as a fan, Paige.
Whenever you do that, people get very defensive. You’re right to attack the merit of his argument, of which there is none.
Boise State beat Oklahoma and Virginia Tech, both of which are “elite” teams according to his own post that violates his own criteria. This means they have less wins over “elite” programs (according to his own list) as we do over the last 5 years. After all, over the last 6 years, we’ve beaten FSU, Ohio State twice, Michigan three times. We have less undefeated seasons, but face higher quality competition on a regular basis.
Of course, this is all complete nonsense because all of those programs have had down periods over the past 15-20 years. If you’re counting PSU’s record against Michigan when PSU was down, you have to count PSU’s record against Michigan when Michigan’s down, right?
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
You're right, I should refrain from the PERSONAL ATTACK!
His bad arguments should stand on their own.
My mojo is broken :o(
Really? Indiana, Northwestern, Purdue
are better than BSU?
BSU’s overall level of competitionis less than PSUs, but that is predominantly dictated by their conference schedule. They schedule tough out of conference opponents and usually do very well when they “play up” against the upper echelon competition.
I think you’re delusional if you don;t think BSU is a good football team
Northwestern may be as good as BSU,
Indiana and Purdue, probably not. But Indiana and Purdue are probably better than Wyoming and New Mexico. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
My mojo is broken :o(
They played for one national...
title 11 years ago.
Opulence, I has it.
by Esteban d' Amur on Nov 19, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Has Michigan played for the national title this decade?
When exactly was that? Has Boise State? How many games against their “peers” have they played? And exactly who are their peers?
You can find things to complain about every one of those teams. You want to know who’s elite? Ohio State, Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, and Alabama’s probably there right now.
But don’t insult anyone’s intelligence by claiming that USC, currently on probation for lack of institutional control, is elite because they won a title with ineligible players.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Cross Texas off that list.
ELITE teams don’t lose to Iowa State. Or some nonsense like that
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
You're right, that run that USC had a few years back
never happened, even before Bush.
USC's run pre-Bush
2003: 12-1 with a loss to 8-6 Cal, and wins over two 10 win teams (Washington State, 10-3; Michigan 10-3)
2002: 11-2 with losses to 11-2 Kansas State, 10-3 Washington State, wins over two 10 win teams (Notre Dame, 10-3; Iowa, 11-2)
2001: 6-6
2000: 5-7
1999: 6-6
1998: 8-5
1997: 6-5
1996: 6-6
1995: 9-2-1
1994: 8-3-1
1993: 8-5
1992: 6-5-1
1991: 3-8
1990: 8-4-1
1989: 9-2-1
1988: Oh there’s that 10 win season I was looking for. 10-2
Man, pre-sanction-inducing-Reggie Bush years USC was so elite. I wish Penn State could have performed at that elite level…instead they were winning 11 more games over that same time period.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What is this a list of?
Elite teams? For eternity? For unlisted timeframe?
Not trying to be too snarky, but this just looks like a list of teams that are historically “better than most” – which should include Penn State (and probably ND too, to be honest)
"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"
"that's not elite to me"
That’s EXACTLY the problem. Penn State is not meeting YOUR arbitrary definition of “elite”. Obviously there are a lot of other folk who are happy with the success of the program (outside of a few years).
This is like trying to argue over whether or not the weather is “nice”. Personally, I love a cold, snowy, windy day.
"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"
not only that
but he doesn’t really even hold the other teams to the same standard that he holds Penn State.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
I dont understand your stance
You argue we don’t recruit nationally, then point to Oklahoma getting Texas recruits, how is that national? You know whose HS football and economics is eerily similar to Pennylvania’s? Ohio. Look at OSUs roster, and count how many players are from Ohio and their “border states,” I bet its equivalent to Penn State’s.
I dont think recruiting matters that much. JoePa doesnt have to get questionably moral but unquestionably athletic players from Florida or California or Texas because he makes players with unquestionable morals and questionable athleticism better. Who cares if all our players are from PA, Maryland and Jersey, they are winning 10 games a year, are they not?
The point of the article was that Notre Dame is irrelevant. You worry Penn State is on the same path, fine. You’re answer to this is national recruiting. Yet you ignore the fact that Notre Dame, the very program you think we are becoming, recruits nationally. Doesn’t seem to make much sense, logically.
I spent all my energy in my post yesterday.
You summed up my feelings exactly. College football goes through cycles. And you took the words out of my mouth, football funds WAAAYYYY too much to become irrelevant.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
I think you make an interesting point
but I disagree. I think Notre Dame’s problems are fundamentally cultural, which puts them in a different boat than Penn State. You’re right that the program could dip for a few years after Joe’s gone, but there’s a huge appetite at Penn State to have a successful football program and we’ll spend the money and do all the things necessary to get one.
Notre Dame, on the other hand, arguably handicaps itself by implicitly setting impossible standards on the program. A ND buddy was talking to me about this the other day and mentioned the problem in terms of “neck tattoos” and “brooks brothers.” In short, ND alums are old white guys that helped the campus bookstore sign a long-term contract with brooks brothers. They don’t want guys with neck tattoos playing college football for ND.
When ND was great at football, they were the dream school for every red-blooded American Catholic. That’s not the case anymore. The school parking lots used to be full of beat-up chevy’s. Not it’s all BMWs. The school has changed and so have alumni expectations. They don’t want the type of people that tend to also be great football players to be members of their school. This is, at bottom, perhaps what’s killing hte Irish. PSU doesn’t and won’t have such a problem.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I think they're still the dream school for red blooded American Catholic
there just aren’t as many of those now
I don't know
some of what was illuminating about those articles about the games in Yankee stadium was about how many immigrant Catholics associated themsleves with ND. There are still a ton of immigrant Catholics—latinos—but I have a feeling that just as quickly play for USC or Texas. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think so.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
you're right
but the latino scholastic football base is behind, and in a different area of the country than ND/northeast
it’ll catch up, but it’s behind. arizona, fresno state, usc, all the southwest schools are starting to get their share of latinos
The Catholic Church has major problems, so much so that
even my roommate and I, who both grew up in Catholic families that watched ND football, don’t much go to Church anymore. Being Catholic is a large part of my identity, but my kids won’t dream of going to Notre Dame. That’s a big problem for them.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
my Dad was Catholic and never missed church, his cousin the priest loved ND. As did all his cousins who live (still live) in Indiana.
My Dad loathed ND. Hated them. I never heard my Dad speak ill of anyone, but he hated Lou, for no real reason than he coached ND.
400. That is all.
The priest at my church when I was a kid...
…loved ND football. He’d even work them into his sermon a lot of times. In fact, I think if it hadn’t been for ND football and the Readers Digest, he wouldn’t have had any material for his sermons!
I think you need to add Irish to that description
God bless Matt McGloin and his life long dream of playing for Penn State.
suck it ND
400. That is all.
I think PSU will have a coming cultural problem as well
Just read/listen to what a large number people say about finding a new head coach and all the Chicken Littles come out
“Ohhh, we don’t want to win at all costs”
“We want student athletes not thugs”
etc etc etc
and the assumption by this group is that the next head coach, if hired outside the program, will immediately be all these bad things when it is simply not true
plenty of parents and kids both
still care enough about getting an education. we just happen to present that as our first lead in recruiting when other’s don’t
i’ll take 80% grad rate and average 9 wins a year, thanks
well...
what other coach is currently doing that? Honestly, I don’t know, but I imagine the pool is quite small, and they’re probably pretty secure in their jobs.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
did you just post that link without actually reading it?
Schools within a 10% graduation rate of Penn State (89%), with their current BCS ranking in parenthesis:
Stanford (6)
Iowa (20)
Miami (24)
VT (16)
Now maybe my 10% rate was an arbitrary cutoff, so let’s go to 20% and add in TCU (3) and Missouri (15).
What schools on there would you consider for your elite status?
Stanford? no. Iowa? Although they beat PSU consistently, they don’t beat other teams consistently enough. Miami? I’ll give you them, though they’ve also been going through recent struggles. VT? Also on a similar level of Penn State, though I’d argue Penn State is better (I know you wouldn’t).
TCU and Missouri? Um, no. Sure, TCU is the belle of the ball right now, but how long is that going to last, especially if they were in a real conference?
So, um, what was your point in showing that list (which also includes Oklahoma with 44%…were they a team that is doing “pretty well”)?
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 19, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
Your basic argument seems to be--Penn State Football is going to FAIL
you might be right; you might not be. We just don’t know. Assuming we do is ridiculous.
So for the time being, why don’t we just enjoy what we have and hope for the best?
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
No, if you read one of my posts above I said PSU faces SIGNIFICANT HURDLES
now and in the near future
Our hurdles are no worse than Ohio State, Michigan or Nebraska and those are our direct competition. No reason we can’t be successful within our conference to say the least.
Really? I agree with you on Nebraska
but Michigan and OSU? Absolutely not. Those are two school that have actually played for and won national titles since the most recent freshman class has been born…PSU, not so much.
Wait, really?
I really need to consolidate this into one post, because I keep responding and then seeing more comments I haven’t gotten to. But off the top of my head, Michigan last “played for” a National Title in 1997. They split the title with Nebraska, whom you’re conveniently ignoring.
Freshmen who enter Penn State do so at age 17 or 18, which would put their year of birth at 1992 or 1993, ahead of our undefeated season in 1994. That probably doesn’t count, because we didn’t “play for” a national title nor did we split it due to the way the college football system works. But if we discount the 1994 team, they we have to discount every undefeated Boise State team that didn’t play for a championship, which would make them……not “elite.”
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
That's fine, and I'm not discounting the 1994 teams
OK, so fine, we are 1 year away from the incoming freshmen not even having been born when PSU last had an undefeated/national title worthy team. Still pretty damn sad.
How does undefeated=title worthy?
Last time I checked, LSU and Florida both won MNCs with 1 or more losses. So by that criteria, the 2005 and 2008 teams were title worthy. You can’t possibly think that those two teams weren’t title worthy just because of two losses on the last play of the games.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
What the hell does that even mean?
Seriously man, your argument is clouded by your obvious and not so subtle personal dissatisfaction with the program. You point to reasons that PSU isn’t elite and then compare them to teams that you consider “elite” that don’t even match the very definition of elite.
What boggles my mind is that, you say PSU has won the majority of it’s games against cupcakes. That JoePa has 400 wins because of fattening up of bottom feeders, yet you then point to BSU as a team that is elite because they have had so many undefeated seasons in the last decade. If PSU can’t take credit for beating the teams it should, then BSU can’t either. It’s an obvious double standard.
Boise has to get up for 2 maybe 3 games all season long. Just look at JoePa’s success in bowl games to show this is something that good coaches do. If PSU played Boise’s schedule, PSU would go undefeated or lose maybe one game each year as well. I have no way to prove this, just that if you only have one game to focus on all season, then good coaching staffs will win that game. No facts, just my opinion. Same as what you do.
Going back to the VaTech argument. They played for ONE, repeat, ONE MNC and that was based soley on the exploits of a once in a lifetime talent named Mike Vick.
The system under which they played? Ah yes, the great and noble system that gave us a MNC game of LSU vs Oklahoma after Oklahoma lost the Big12 Title game 35-7. What a great system that is!
Look, as long as you continue to harp on the “we’re not good, not even ok” sentiment, while continually ignoring historical trends and results, then you’ll continue to look like a very callow individual. I’m done wasting my time on this because it’s an excercise in futility. No amout of logic/reasoning can explain something to an unreasonable individual.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
by jman07 on Nov 19, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
head of nail, meet hammer.
your argument is clouded by your obvious and not so subtle personal dissatisfaction with the program.
It seeps through every comment posted.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 19, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Talk about an arbitrary position. What structural advantages do Michigan and Ohio State have that PSU doesn’t have? Winning tradition? Large student population and alumni base? Flagship public university? Huge stadium? On any meaningful measure what what affects football success, PSU is in the exact same boat as Ohio State and Michigan.
What the hell matters that they played in “championship games” in the past? Hell, prior to Michigan’s 1997 “championship”, neither of them had won an MNC in almost 30 years. And besides this year’s freshman class was born prior to 1994, so your statement isn’t even relevent.
You know the answer (Complaining is fun for some people).
Why do you ask?
"The coaches don't know what they're doing! Start Newsome!"
Beat Sam Lickliter.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 18, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
No
I think this is Nick Horvath. brd119=Nick
He is bascially saying the same thing the NH article said.
eff it, I'm going derp
i refuse to believe that anyone is incapable of change
despite all evidence to the contrary.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
wait, I'm not sure
were you making it seem like “we don’t want to win at all costs”, and that “we want student athletes, and not thugs” was a bad thing?
I think you may be in quite the minority on what Penn State athletics is all about. I know you went to the school, because of your e-mail addy there, but are you sure you wouldn’t be more comfortable rooting for a team like the USC Trojans, FSU Seminoles, or Dallas Cowboys?
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
When Paterno is gone.....
…John Steigerwald thinks PSU will end up like Illinois. As is typical of the Pgh media, he does not like Penn State. And that tailgating is the only reason so many fans come to the games.
JohnSteigerwald
in November 13th, 2010 @ 20:42
You missed a lot of good football games at Pitt Stadium in the mid 70s to mid 80s. Penn State is a second tier Big Ten team and will become Illinois when Paterno is gone.
JohnSteigerwald
in November 13th, 2010 @ 20:43
Pitt has always been one of the best drawing non-state, non regional teams. If tailgating were outlawed Pitt would outdraw Penn State.
JohnSteigerwald
in November 16th, 2010 @ 20:04
I give Pitt fans credit for knowing the difference between Miami and New Hampshire. Penn State draws from the entire state. Pitt draws from Western Pa. If tailgating were outlawed, Penn State would have 60,000 empty seats. Especially for Akron.
"If tailgating were outlawed Pitt would outdraw Penn State"
You’ve got to be kidding me
"Personal Attack"- R. Aceto
by Bob Sacamano on Nov 18, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
If ifs and buts
were chicken and nuts then cows would live in huts…or something along those lines
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
Yeah, what a joke, huh?
Talk about convoluted thinking.
I’ll bet that even if winning were outlawed PSU would still outdraw Pitt.
I love how he refernces the 70s and 80s. Typical Yinzer…stuck in the distant past. Those days, in addition to being an easily proven anomaly for Pitt football, are long gone.
He also said in that thread that Pitt has recruited as well as PSU has the last 10 years. Yeah…and despite playing a vastly inferior overall schedule Pitt has had more success the past 10 years than PSU too, right Steigy???
It’s just amazing the lengths the Pgh media will go to trying to “prove” Pitt is every bit equal to and as relevant as PSU is in football.
The mere fact that they feel the need to continue to “‘prove’ Pitt is every bit equal to and as relevant as PSU is in football,” only further solidifies their irrelevance, insignificance and petty jealousy.
"Personal Attack"- R. Aceto
by Bob Sacamano on Nov 18, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
"You missed a lot of good football games at Pitt Stadium in the mid 70s to mid 80s"
It’s the 2010’s and Pitt fans miss football games at Heinz Field. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I give Pitt fans credit for knowing the difference between Miami and New Hampshire.
The hell does that even mean?
Penn State draws from the entire state. Pitt draws from Western Pa.
Score one for us!
If tailgating were outlawed, Penn State would have 60,000 empty seats. Especially for Akron.
This guy, eh?
so is tailgating outlawed at Pitt?
If tailgating is the main reason people go to football games, then why don’t they just show up randomly during other weekends of the year? What about basketball games?
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
They do not have the national appeal they once did. And once they lose that they are just a small private school in Indiana. Penn State has millions of alumni that come with being a premier state school.
This is ultimately the key thing. Notre Dame benefitted from being the Catholic university and having a ton of followers. Most Catholics nowadays do not have the same allegiance to them.
Penn State could certainly rise and fall in the future, but our position as a massive flagship public school will always give us the basis to compete. Especially given that we are the dominant football school in an entire heavily populated region of the country. We aren’t going away just because JoePa ain’t around.
Not ones with football traditions like PSU. When Alabama sucks, they’ve rebounded. Same with Texas. And Oklahoma. And Nebraska. And Ohio State. And so on. Those types of schools – and PSU is absolutely one of them – will always be able to maintain their status in the long haul. PSU has all the structural advantages of a school that will continue to be in the upper tier of football programs. That doesn’t mean that we won’t have down years in the future – we will – but a competent coach will have PSU winning as they would at any school with an elite tradition with the same structural advantages.
Notre Dame is a competely different animal and is very susceptible to cultural shifts.
You could argue that some of the structural advantages that PSU enjoys
are slipping away – namely the quality of high school football in the state of PA
I forgot that Nebraska was a high school football powerhouse
and that people were just flocking to live there. You’re arguments are asinine.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
If you look at all his posts
he never actually tries to make an argument. He just puts out his opinions that are supposed to be taken as fact.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
I have no idea.
However, pancake bunny says “I may look silly but at least I don’t look as foolish as somebody who constantly changes their argument”
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
If you really want to know...
A Japanese man exhaustively documented everything his pet rabbit balanced on his head. This was a big thing on the Internet a few years ago.
Not as crazy as the argument going on here.
But what are the chances,
that both Penn State football AND Penn State academics decline precipitously.
BOOM.
I can't believe I only have 4 hours to tailgate. Somehow this is Lee Corso's fault.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 18, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Fixed your post
If Penn State is not careful, it could easily end up like Notre Dame but without affiliation with child molesting clerics.
Personal Attack!
"Personal Attack"- R. Aceto
by Bob Sacamano on Nov 18, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Whenever I read those words...
…I somehow can’t help but think of Gomer Pyle yelling “Citizen’s arrest! Citizen’s arrest!”
It's turning into a Gordon Lightfoot song.
"The coaches don't know what they're doing! Start Newsome!"
Beat Sam Lickliter.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 18, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
and the churchbell chimed 29 times for each man on the edmund fitzgerald!!!
or something
damn i love that song
Superior, they say, never gives up her dead
When the gales of November come early.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
High steppin' strutters who land in the gutters sometimes need one too.
Oh wait….wrong song.
Too funny....I never thought of that!
But I think from some show I saw on the wreck (on History or Discovery or something like that) that the cause of the sinking may have been that some hatches weren’t properly closed. So I’d say whoever was in charge of securing those hatches was the real bum(s)!
I have a lecture to finish preparing for a 1:30 class.
As entertaining as this is, I have to get back to work!
My mojo is broken :o(
Note to self:
When certain posters post inflammatory comments, disregard. It will ensure blood pressure remains at a satisfactory level. When a reply is deemed necessary, heavy use of snark is recommended. When all else fails, use bunnies.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
I must have been itching for debate
I’m editing a bunch of work right now and perked right up when I saw where this was headed.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 18, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
I see no problem with debate
but at a certain point when it quits being a debate and just two people talking at each other, then it should probably end.
Everything looks more important when written in gray italics.
Brick, do you really love the lamp or are you just saying you love the first thing you see?
Everything looks more important when written in gray italics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsE0MEn3kqk
Everything looks more important when written in gray italics.
What? You pooped in the refrigerator? And you ate a whole wheel of cheese?
Heck, I’m not even mad; I’m amazed.
Everything looks more important when written in gray italics.
Skimming this thread I have come to one conclusion...
brd = a closet, butt-hurt ND fan.
2010 PSU Football......"It can maybe snowball into something that can catch fire..."
SENSE OF HUMOR
isn’t it great?
2010 PSU Football......"It can maybe snowball into something that can catch fire..."
by Artiefufkin10 on Nov 18, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
"better that we ended up with Nebraska instead of the Irish in the Big Ten"
Truer words have never been said.
Every ND fan I know still says that independence is the best thing for ND and they hope they always stay that way.
"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"
my neighbor, who graduated from Notre Dame, disagrees. He was very upset that ND didn’t join the Big Ten and feels it was their last chance to be able to compete consistantly on the big stage. He is afraid they are going to be forced to the Big East or lose their other sports affililiation because if the Big East takes another football school they will have to drop a basketball school and ND may be that school. He is also afraid that if the Big Ten expands again that ND is not even on the radar for that expansion and that the Big East will break up. Independent in olympic sports will be expensive or they will have to drop to DII in non profit sports.
eff it, I'm going derp
A rational ND fan?
Jumbo shrimp, baby grand, pretty ugly…
"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"
Sound like legitimate concerns.
The scenario he lays out could very well happen.
I read a book about Knute Rockne in 5th Grade
It was the last time I was at all interested in anything that had to do with Notre Dame.
by OctaShields on Nov 18, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wish ND had kept Weis
They were truly a match made in heaven.
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
I'm embarrassed to say I liked ND when I was a kid
But that was just b/c I thought it was cool that they had the Lucky Charms guy as their mascot!
If someone had Cap’n Crunch or the Trix rabbit as a mascot, I would have been big fans of those teams as well.
"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"
LOL
My mom made us eat plain cheerios and cornflakes.
Wait, I guess I WAS raised to be a Penn Stater.
Your mom made me eat cheerios last night!
"The coaches don't know what they're doing! Start Newsome!"
Beat Sam Lickliter.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 18, 2010 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
We make our kids eat the boring healthy stuff too
I never tell them that sugarcoated, marshmallow-filled, chocolaty delicious part of my childhood
"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"
damn, me too
I don’t think I knew what mountain dew even was until i was like 17. seriously
and i still was 300 pounds when i was 17
I wasn't allowed to have Mt. Dew
Until I was in high school. All the caffiene made me 213243243295x more hyper than I normally was. I still say, if I was in the school systems today, I’d be labeled ADHD
2010 PSU Football: You do not and will not understand it
I know many of you do not want to hear this but
we are the 4th best program in the big ten since beginning conference play in 1993
I know many of you do want to hear this, but
brd119 is full of $#!T.
The best way you can compare conference teams is by conference record, since it actually gives you a directly comparable measure (something not available for teams across conferences, where overall record is the best metric)
OSU, Michigan, PSU, Wisky
(By the way, if you actually use overall wins, PSU is 3rd in the Big Ten, though if you only go up to 2009, then we are 2nd in the Big 10. Wisky just barely leapt us this year)
But if you wanna go by the arbitrary rankings brd119 uses in his assessments (the same ones where USC was also somehow elite in the period right before Reggie Bush, and where Boise State has played in national championship games), then I suppose we might only be the 4th best team.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 18, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
Find me where I said BSU played in a title game
USC was one of the most dominant programs this decade.
PSU has fewer conference titles than OSU, Michigan…and is tied with Wisoncin and Northwestern.
PSU has a losing record against Iowa, Michigan and OSU
Nothing arbitrary about that Jugger
That was the elite school VA Tech, that he mentioned in conjunction with title games.
My mojo is broken :o(
Right here
Elite – A combination of the following in a ten year period: playing for a national title at least once, having multiple conference titles, winning record against your peers
Teams you listed off the top of your head that met this criteria
OU
Florida
Texas
OSU
Michigan
USC
Alabama
Boise St
Miami
FSU
Va Tech
Boise State doesn’t meat your criteria
VT doesn’t meet your criteria
Michigan doesn’t meet your criteria
next year FSU won’t meet your criteria
USC doesn’t really meet your criteria either unless you go with your whole “who cares if they paid their players, they still won the games” argument (you sound a lot like USC’s AD), and what further pisses me off about the USC thing is that if they DIDN’T cheat, then PSU would have met your criteria in 2005 (we were the #3 BCS team, even with that loss to Michigan.
Alabama wouldn’t have met your criteria until last year (prior to which they were going through quite the downturn of their own)
Texas…Texas is worse than us this year.
OU…2008 PSU would have put up a better performance than OU, and they don’t deserve to be in any of the title games they’ve been in.
And on and on. You said earlier that you are just judging a team as elite based on the system in place at the time, but that system is crap, and often excludes equally good teams based on slight differences in rank, just because only 2 teams can play in the game, even if there are 10 equally deserving teams.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 19, 2010 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What do you expect from Penn State football?
Seriously. What do they have to do to make you happy? We have the greatest coach, the greatest uniforms, one of the top graduation rates, an amazing gameday/tailgating atmosphere, rabid fans/alumni, are one of only 7 schools with 800+ wins, are one of only a few schools with 0 NCAA sanctions, multiple national titles and undefeated seasons, one of the top overall winning percentages. Did I forget anything??
What more do you honestly want than that? We all want them to win every single game. Do you think Paterno and his coaches and team decide not to win some games? But guess what- you can’t win them all! And I honestly think you are happy when we lose games b/c it adds fuel to your argument that PSU should fire Joe or Jay or recruit in Idaho or whatever it is that makes you so unhappy with this program.
This is how I judge our program: when thinking about the football program, is there any other school out there that I wish I was an alum of instead of Penn State? The answer is a resounding NO.
"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"
by NJ lion on Nov 18, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I appreciate the touchy feely stuff
but I’d like to be better than the 4th besst program in the big ten.
No, you want us to be as mediocre as Virginia Tech.
Besides, we’re the third best program in the Big Ten.
and not far behind the second best team in the Big Ten (Michigan).
Are we OSU? No, at least not right now. We’ve been better than them before (and over extended periods) and will likely have periods like that in the future.
Would I rather have OSU’s football team? I honestly don’t know. The wins are nice, but they don’t have that many more, plus a lot of other baggage. On top of that they have the 1 MNC in 2002/3, and the blowout losses in 2006 and 2007….yay…
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 19, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
This isn't close to skins4ever level stuff.
But it does remind me of him. And that is a good thing.
"The coaches don't know what they're doing! Start Newsome!"
Beat Sam Lickliter.
meh
skins was entertaining in a multitude of ways. This guy just keeps marching along and beating his worn out drum. He’s RA without some of the flair. We’ve been through this argument 100 times and it bores me.
Everything looks more important when written in gray italics.
I'm getting more of a
Richard “Personal Attack” Aceto vibe personally.
Deon Butler Postulate
Can we please have this flashing on every page from mid-jan to march?
by InScoresOfOtherGames on Nov 19, 2010 2:03 PM EST reply actions
I'm going to nitpick...
I enjoy bashing USC as much as the next guy/gal, but they did not pay players. They “just” didn’t care that other were. Reggie Bush and OJ Mayo had improper contacts and received improper benefits from “agents” and runners. USC either knew and didn’t care or should’ve known, which is why they got in trouble.
From Charles Robinson of Yahoo:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ys-uscpenalties061010
If you want to talk about paying players, let’s talk about SMU, Oklahoma and Miami in the 80s.
Opulence, I has it.
by Esteban d' Amur on Nov 19, 2010 4:56 PM EST reply actions
while there is a distinction
I don’t know if you can really say there is a difference, especially if they knew.
I mean heck, if you really wanna break it down, the money for the program mostly comes from donors/boosters, so they can be, in effect, considered shareholders. If one of those donor/booster/shareholders is paying the player, how is that different than the team paying the player?
Of course, a lot of this has to do with unaffiliated agents paying the players, and the lines definitely start to blur.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 19, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
If we are going to look down...
our noses at USC, lets get the reason right. I’m not justifying what USC did, but its intellectually dishonest to say they paid players.
Opulence, I has it.
by Esteban d' Amur on Nov 20, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
who ever said they paid players?
I guess I came close with one thing I said. I will edit it.
USC doesn’t really meet your criteria either unless you go with your whole "who cares if they
paid their playersused ineligible players who were paid off by one entity or another and which may have been known about by USC, or perhaps not, but in which they are still guilty of lack of institutional control, they still won the games" argument (you sound a lot like USC’s AD), and what further pisses me off about the USC thing is that if they DIDN’T cheat, then PSU would have met your criteria in 2005 (we were the #3 BCS team, even with that loss to Michigan.
I think if the NCAA cared who actually paid the players, though, they wouldn’t have vacated all those wins, and imposed all those sanctions.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 20, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Living In The Moment Might Be Dangerous
Keep in mind that until last year and since 2000 the difference in records between PSU and ND was 66-44 to 64-44. As of yester day, ND has only 4 more loses than PSU since 2000, and only one more 10 win season. Things can change quickly. I actually hope both schools do well, but to say ND is irrelevant is more perception than anything and based mostly on expectations. Think about it, if you joke that ND isn’t relevant because they haven’t won an NC since 1988, consider that PSU hasn’t won since 1986. As most would likely agree, winning cures everything. And winning today has more to do with defense than offence. When PSU is great it is because of defense. It is defense that sets up everything. And to play good defense you need the right players in a consistent system. PSU has revamped its offence a number of times, but has been consistent on defense. In the case of ND, it is good when it runs the ball and plays defense. Once that is fixed, I believe they will return to winning, and with winning comes relevance.
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