Joe Paterno Is A Winner, Not A Mascot
by Adam Bittner on Nov 30, 2010 5:28 PM EST
in Football
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With every mediocre season at Penn State, the topic of Joe Paterno's future with the football program gets beaten like a dead horse. The day Paterno announced he was returning in 2011 last week, BSD was flooded with over 1000 comments by folks on both side of the debate of whether he should remain as coach or retire. We haven't touched it here because we don't really have much new to say. Despite what some might think, there is no right or wrong answer on either side of the argument about whether Paterno should stay in place or retire.
Every criticism can be balanced with an adulation, which is why, ultimately, Paterno's impact on the program is likely little more than a wash these days. All tolled, he probably doesn't help or hurt the program. Whether that's a reason to try an open a new chapter in Penn State football or stay the course with the octogenarian, I don't know, and I don't care to pretend that I do.
What I do know, though, is that Stephen A. Smith of Philadelphia Sports Daily has no idea what he's talking about on the subject. In an article published today, the loud-mouthed national writer based in Philly had this to say.
Yet, Paterno is still around. Still coming back for season No. 46. Even with the Nittany Lions 7-5, strapped in the middle of the pack in the Big Ten Conference, not even sniffing at a national championship, the door always swings open for the man affectionately known as Joe Pa – but never for him to exit. In fact, Penn State fans are so mesmerized when it comes to him, don’t be surprised if there’s some push emanating from Western Pennsylvania calling for the iconic coach to be appear on "Dancing With The Stars."
Western Pennsylvania? Really? I'm fairly certain that, even among Penn State fans, Paterno is less popular in that region than any other part of the country. Thanks for the cheap shot, though. Anyway...
Smith then goes on to explain that he believes "Joe must go," as his best days are behind him. Nothing new, but what follows is fundamental stupidity.
National titles and Penn State are not mentioned in the same breath anymore. They’re replaced with stories about the halcyon days of a man cheered, primarily because he still has all of his faculties in order. Not because he’s dominant any longer. We keep hearing about the raspy voice, the candor, the devotion to the Nittany Lions and career win No. 400 and beyond. Meanwhile, the real issue keeps being avoided.
Maybe national titles aren't mentioned by you, Stephen, because most of the time you're probably not looking at college football long enough to have any idea what's going on as you rail on ESPN about LeBron James or whatever other national story is ruling the day, but at Penn State, the expectations of the program haven't changed since the national championships of the 1980s.
That's why, when Penn State was in the dumper at the beginning of the last decade, Graham Spanier and Tim Curley asked Paterno to resign, after which he kindly told them to get off his lawn. I guess you weren't around for that, were you?
Must we always wait until the end appears unflattering and there are calls for someone to be pushed out the door (i.e. Florida State’s Bobby Bowden) before a coalition of folks have the decency to come together and say, "Enough’s Enough? It’s time for a new era?"
I’ve asked myself that question for years, never fully willing to comprehend the inevitable conclusion:
There’s too much money out there to be made. The SEC Conference has a $2.25 billion deal with ESPN, another $825 million deal with CBS. The Big Ten has its billion-dollar deal with the networks, along with the ACC. The Pac-10, Big 12 and Big East are going for theirs, as well, and nobody’s apologizing.
If that is the state of affairs in modern-day athletics, what’s the problem if we have an old figure head patrolling the sidelines? Keeping things respectable? Giving the illusion that someday a return to prominence is actually likely to happen on his watch?
These are the questions Penn State entertains, in all likelihood. No doubt doing so while counting the $$$, hugging Joe Paterno along the way.
Essentially, Smith is arguing that Penn State is whoring itself out to the financial incentive of keeping Paterno on as coach. Unfortunately, he's to oblivious to realize that the very financial incentive he's talking about is directly tied to the amount of games Paterno wins.
Maybe he doesn't win as many games as a lot of Penn State fans would like, even to the point that they don't want to see him on the sidelines next year, but ultimately, thousands if not millions care passionately about the program because he continues to keep it relevant. Conference championships and runs at a national championship in 2005 and 2008 did that, believe it or not.
And that's why he'll leave on his own terms. Not because he "deserves it" after all these years of service or because of an oily plan to exploit him at Old Main, but because he still wins enough games that no one at this University has the power to tell him he can't.
How Paterno decides to exit is his choice. If he wants us to see him in failing health, well, he's a big boy. At the end of the day though, Mr. Smith, you writing in a newspaper that Joe should go because people are exploiting his image means nothing more to him than those same powers you accuse of being so devious walking into his house and telling him it's time.
He's going to do whatever the hell he wants and that's final.
The only person exploiting him, here, Mr. Smith, is you. You and your thirst to write something about a big name who you clearly know nothing more about than you see on television. My advice to you, sir, is to go back to your day job of serving as Skip Bayless's counter-clown on ESPN's First Take in the morning and quit trying to come across as knowing something about a subject that you so blatantly don't. Leave that to those of us who follow the program every single day. That, or you're welcome to join us for a podcast where you can yell louder than us and we'll admit you were right all along. Thanks.
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Look at some of the articles this tool has written
fellating Vick.
What a jackwagon
400. That is all.
i know i'll be hated on here as not much negative stuff is allowed here....
and as much as i dislike stephen a. smith, i actually think this article is pretty spot on. i love paterno and respect the man immensely, but we need to start questioning our standards. it seems more and more these days that it’s a “victory” when Joe has a “good” presser and “great seasons” are when we tie for the big 10 championship (side note…NW has the same amount of big 10 titles since we joined). let the hating commence…
I think you're missing Smith's point.
In the tweet I found this thing in, he said Penn State is putting money ahead of winning by keeping Joe around which couldn’t be dumber. There were a lot of empty seats in the “Dark Ages,” so he certainly wasn’t making any money then and they tried to get rid of him. It’s the wins that make money, and he’s getting enough of them that Penn State simply doesn’t have the power to get rid of him if it wanted to.
I’m not going to argue the merits of any of your points but Smith’s is fundamentally inaccurate. You need to win to make money. Paterno might not be doing enough of that to please you, but he’s doing enough for the people with the money. So long as that’s the case, he’s not going anywhere regardless of what you or I think.
Adam
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Nov 30, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
i do agree that wins make the money and its not solely joe...
there will definitely be more empty seats if the team is not good. i guess i was more agreeing with his points about psu not really being a contender anymore and joe not exactly coaching anymore. so ill take back my “spot on” comment and make it “partially agree”
But even if you partially agree with his comments, they're fundamentally untrue.
You can’t say with a straight face that Paterno didn’t contend for national and conference titles between 2005 and 2009. He had viable national championship runs in 2005 and 2008.
Whether this program can do better with a different staff is obviously up for debate, but you can’t deny results.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
Yes.
I’ve made this point before. Maybe the reason they keep Paterno around is because the money flows, but that money flows from donors who dealt with 2000, 2001, 2003 and 2004 and are loathe to go back there. They support Paterno as long as he wins. Even this year, at 7-5, the support has fallen.
If Joe ever goes 5-7, he’s done here. Of course Spanier cares about money. Paterno brings in truckloads, assuming he wins.
Also, it doesn’t hurt that Paterno graduates 89% of its student athletes, won over 50 games in 5 years, and beat the heck out of out-of-conference teams in early season and in bowl games. But clearly Smith won’t mention those things because they completely discredit his arguments, much like the arguments of his brethren who were banned from this blog earlier this week.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
A great season is when we win Big 10 championships. Only Ohio State ties.
I can't believe I only have 4 hours to tailgate. Somehow this is Lee Corso's fault.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 30, 2010 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
A conference championship game can apparently not come soon enough
by psuphysicist on Nov 30, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Only Ohio State fans count ties
For my money we won in 05 and 08. You’d really have to give it to MSU this year. They beat Wiscy heads up, who beat Ohio State.
Claiming a ‘share’ when clearly there isn’t one is like giving every kid in little league a participation trophy. Even at 8 I felt dirty taking them when my team didn’t win.
by psuphysicist on Nov 30, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Have to disagree with the
“clearly there isn’t one” portion of this comment.
1) head to head as a tie breaker is often the non-CCG is the standard, but it doesn’t make it an objective truth that one team “clearly” is that conference’s champion. The fact that there was a tie at all shows that there is no clear winner. A clear winner has a better record and beat everyone else. A clear winner doesn’t lose to a team worse than the one it is tied with. I’m not saying it’s the best way to break a tie or the worst, but simply that if there is a tie you are left with plenty of difficult and non-exact, non-scientific ways to break that tie. If head to head was a clear indication of the champion, the league would have added it long ago.
2) it isn’t in the rules, so it can’t be “clear”
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
I own t-shirts that say otherwise.
I can't believe I only have 4 hours to tailgate. Somehow this is Lee Corso's fault.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 30, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
I hope I don't sound aggressive
because everyone around here can tell you that’s not how I roll. I don’t want to start fights on the interwebs. But does he really not live up to your standards? Because he totally works with mine.
As one OSU fan pointed out a little while ago, Big 10 ties happen because the Big 10 allows that nonsense to happen. We only have to live with it for one more year. And we don’t really know much about the future, but we do know that as long as the old man is in charge he’ll work to keep a clean program and represent the school well. I love to win as much as anyone, but if I had to choose between success and honor?
Well, you know. Priorities and all.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
no worries about interweb fighting....
and thats fine as it is your opinion. i am of the opinion that there are plenty of top notch coaches out there that could continue joepa’s success with honor. i dont think it has to die when he leaves. guys like chris pederson come to mind in terms of winning with respect and honor (as opposed to most of the coaches in the SEC)
Boise State's graduation rates beg to differ
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
the point is that there is this unfounded fear that once joe leaves
we will turn into thug U. there are plenty of very good coaches out there who’s teams play with honor and class. psu is probably one of the better coaching jobs out there. i have no doubt that we will attract a great, classy coach.
Agreed. What I said a week or two ago...
[T]here is a reason why we throw very specific names around when discussing who the next coach could be, particularly if we go outside the staff. Guys like Saban and Butch Davis would never get a look here. Not once, not ever. Over the past few months, blog opinion here seems to have come to a near consensus on Jim Harbaugh and Pat Fitzgerald. It’s no surprise – these two have fielded quality teams in the face of more stringent academic standards that we’re accustomed to. Fitz and Harbaugh have their own versions of the Grand Experiment, except they aren’t privy to the resources of a major football institution like this school.
At worst, we’ll get Golden. We know he’s a good fit because he’s already fit in here as a player. Who knows if any of them will win, but at least the possibility for a good transition exists.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
and the second Golden has a 7-5 season
people will say “Golden is not the answer, we need to go out and get Fitz or Harbaugh” until they have a 7-5 season, in which case then we need to go out and get a guy like Urban Meyer until he has a 7-5 season, then we need a guy like Mack Brown, until he has a 7-5 season, and so on.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Well that's true, I won't deny that.
The next guy won’t get the leeway that Paterno gets, and that’s no surprise. But he will get an opportunity to succeed if the culture that we’ve built here is as strong as we think it is. We’re not firing someone after their first 7-5 season. But 4 years in and a consistent 7-5 team? Yeah, we’ll probably make a change.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
and yet we want to fire JoePa after his "first" 7-5 season?
(yes, I know he did worse in 2000-2004, but his performance in 2005-2009 pushed the reset button for me, at least)
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
I certainly don't, but I don't think it's arguable
that there’s some angst in this fanbase.
I think he can probably go 7-5 in perpetuity. But if he has a losing season, is in his eighties, and occasionally has “bad days” like he’s had at random press conferences, then no, I won’t be surprised if his donor support collapses and he’s “guided” into retirement.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
which is fair
but I think the same reason you give for showing him the door (his age and “bad days”) are also reasons for NOT showing him the door; he can’t physically stay around forever.
If we can weather certain types seasons from a younger coach who we think can “right the ship” then I think we can weather those same seasons with JoePa who has not only shown in the past that he can right the ship, but who can’t really stick around long enough to screw things up that much.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
I have heard that
the current coaching staff actually has bad blood with Golden. Something surrounding what happened when he left, possibly involving the refusal to return his playbook. Could be a rumor, but I heard it (GASP) offline from someone in the know in State College social circles.
the fear isn't Thug U
the fear is Michigan.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." - Joseph V. Paterno
by pricecheck on Dec 1, 2010 9:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't doubt that there are plenty of coaches that would.
It’s just so important to me that I’d rather take the sure thing. Plus, Paterno doesn’t suck at the “winning” thing. That helps.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
Is a CCG really a solution that satisfies you?
Let’s take a look at this year (it’s not perfect because there’s no Nebraska, but it will do for purposes of the discussion).
In our division, Wisconsin is tied with Ohio State at 11-1 (7-1). They get the tie breaker having won the head to head matchup.
Out of the other division comes MSU 11-1(7-1). They get to play Wisconsin 11-1(7-1) who they beat head to head. You must see this as a problem? MSU has to play a team with the same record, that it beat (OMG prove it on the field), and that team getting the benefit of a tie breaker that MSU is not afforded. How does that make sense? Wisconsin gets rewarded by the same rule that the team it plays does not? How can you play this game and call it a good system?
This isn’t even one of the cases, which will occur, when a team from one conference has proved across the board to be the best team (say . . . Auburn 2010) and has to play a team with a much worse record (say . . . South Carolina 2010). And guess what, there will be times when the undeserving team wins. Unacceptable.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
But that's assuming that Wiscy and MSU don't play as cross division game
I really don’t feel like looking it up, but that’s not a guarantee since they’re in different divisions for every year. I’m not saying there isn’t room for it to happen (which may have been your point, and you were just using an example, and if it was I apologize for retorting), but you can’t really use this years B10 games as a comparison IMO. This year and next year are like apples and oranges.
Well,
there are 6 cross divisional teams and you play 3 of them. Based on that there is a 50% chance of a rematch. Someone challenged that at some point and Mike ran the numbers, conferences with CCGs, over the time period he looked (it was large enough to not be a fluke but I don’t recall), had a rematch just under 49% of the time.
So it is going to happen.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
Like I said, it's inevitably going to happen
but in the context of this year, I don’t know if it’s really applicable, but I’ll shut up now
I think the bigger leap of faith would be that there would have been no Nebraska
to figure in the equation.
It’s just a device to illustrate the example. It’s not even the worst case scenario, but I thought it would feel more concrete to compare the bridge year, ie this year current system vs. what it would be (as best as possible).
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, she even lies and says she’ll be somewhere and then go elsewhere!!!
Show me an elitist, and I'll show you a loser.
Tom Clancy
Not bitter at all, eh B? :)
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
Come, Bman, lie down on this couch.
/gesture
Tell me about how that made you feel.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
I have decided to perpetuate (is that a word or one I think is a word?) the travesty of dwf standing me up and making my wife laugh at me as an old has been lady’s man, which I probably am. I am enjoying watching Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer tonight, and just told my wife I love the song Silver and Gold.
Show me an elitist, and I'll show you a loser.
Tom Clancy
Silver and Gold,
what do you think that means?
No seriously though, terrific song, be singing it all night now.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
I was sitting in my room with a letter earlier today,
thinking “I need to tell Paige this.” And then I leave. And you show up after I leave.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
Thanks so much!
Though I should probably admit that PSU made me an offer years ago. This is a program within the school, which makes it sound much less exciting.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
how many top 10 finishes does Northwestern have?
How many teams nationally have more top 10 finishes?
I’ll start questioning the standards: what are yours? Lay them out for me, and find me at least 5 teams that meet them. Then tell me how many of those teams do it with good graduation rates.
You make it seem like the “tie” for the Big Ten Championship was some season where we backed into the championship, and were a low rated team.
2005 we finished 2nd in the nation out of all eligible teams. Seems better than “only tied for the Big 10 Championship” when it is put that way, but I guess then your point seems a little silly.
2008 we finished tied with the record of the teams playing in the national championship game. Unfortunately only 2 teams get to go, but you could argue Penn State was as deserving, they just didn’t get the votes.
I like to look at the glass half full, but some people, it seems, like to look at the glass as half empty, and the other half “only” tied with full.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
because i want PSU to be great i am a pessimist?
you are the type of person i simply refuse to argue with because you are so entrenched in your views (kool-aider might be the term used).
no, because you have unrealistic expectations of the program
give me your standards you are holding Penn State to and which they are failing. Then find me as many other programs that meet or exceed those standards. Then we can talk.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
how about....
-beating good teams consistently instead generally losing to superior teams and generally only beating lesser teams? (our winning % against the top 25 in the past 10 years is around 30% and that figure inlcudes teams like ’08 wisky who were ranked but finished 7-6)
-competing for the big 10 consistently instead of every 3 or 4 years?
-more than 2 BCS bowl game appearances?
-a MNC appearance?
-dare i say a MNC?
-how about … i could go on….
ok, so the cookie cutter response we typically get
but you didn’t do part B of your homework assignment. I’ll give you an extension, but we strive for greatness here, so I’m sure you’ll pull through and nail it home for us.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
hahahaha - typical answer.
no comeback so you resort insults. solid.
where's the insult? the only "insult" I've seen so far was the "kool-aid" comment
and what question did you ask during your incomplete answer that I was supposed to answer? All I did was ask for the rest of the answer to my original question.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
here's an insult for you:
“hahahaha – typical answer”
you typically have people request you not fail at the task given to you?
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
He asked a legitimate question of you
You failed to answer it. You seem to be the antagonist here, so the onus is on you to fully defend your supposition with logical, well thought out arguments. When something is questioned, it is your job to articulate your point.
It seems that you want the standards that Ohio State has set since Tressel arrived in terms of winning. No other program has done as well as OSU from that standpoint. But, since that time we are a close second. And we do it while graduating 89% of our athletes and generally staying out of trouble. OSU is on a high, but their time will come. It always does. Look at Texas, look at Miami, look at any big name program. Lull’s happen. I think the point here is that there are people like you that refuse to believe that we ever escaped the dark years.
And yes, expecting a run at the conference championship every year is unrealistic. And dangerous. If you fire everyone that doesn’t produce immediate results you get yourself nowhere. Actually, you turn into ND
by psuphysicist on Nov 30, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Why won't you answer the question?
Who are your teams?
Where do these people come from lately?
Sheesh.
'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'
by Pete the Streak on Nov 30, 2010 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
I never could get SCTowny to tell me one nice thing about Penn State,
even though I made a legitimate criticism when he threw it back at me rather than answering.
Save BSD
There seem to be a lot of people who talk Penn State,
who don’t seem to actually enjoy it.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
This is a fact borne out on
Rivals and Scout message boards constantly. It’s starting to permeate over here and it’s important to knock that nonsense down as soon as possible.
It’s like the “Dark Years” never ended for some people. In fact, it’s what they wish for every day!
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
One of two things.
It’s either this
it’s what they wish for every day!
Or, they are waiting for everyone to go, A HAH! You were right all along! You are so wise and you have shown me the light!
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
To be fair, that’s characteristic of message boards in general. Most people just seem to want to complain and criticize rather than have intelligent discourse.
I’d like to think that taking extreme and unreasonable positions are due to the anonymous nature of the internet and not how such folks behave in “reality” but I’m not so sure.
Be fair now,
I love Penn State, but my contributions to anything that I’d call ‘intelligent discourse’ are pretty few and far between.
Oh well- every good drama needs some comic relief.
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
He didn't want debate.
He wanted a therapist.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
sorry pete - i have better things to do all day then sit on BSD...
anyway, to answer some of the questions (you guys are pretty good at piling on)….
first, in none of my posts will you see my saying that joe should go because of one 7-5 season. i am fine with some bad seasons sprinkled in as long as we are actually competing some years. the fact is that i can count the good teams we have beaten recently on less than one hand. that is my main issue. our record against superior teams is atrocious and that is based on stats not my opinion.
secondly, regarding teams i would like to compare us to….here are some examples:
OSU
Oklahoma
Texas
just to name a few…but these teams compete regularly both conference-wise and nationally and yes they have some bad seasons…but the good far outweigh the bad and they will more times than not play UP to their competition.
i could even throw some SEC teams in there but i know that’s sacrilegious to alot here because unfortunately many here think that everyone that plays at PSU is a model citizen and student (never mind the off the field instances regarding alcohol or weed etc). the fact is that its football and its a cash cow and winning is in important and rules will be bent or broken no matter how saintly you think joe is. i knew a few players when i attended school and i can tell you that these guys were not your model citizens nor students….and the stories were just as good.
again, you obviously disagree with me and that’s fine….but the snarky comments on this site are comical and make it hard to have a decent back and forth. blind optimism is just as bad as blind pessimism. its no wonder people who express their dislike re: the direction of the program are the ones that get banned. there is no room for debate.
Just a hint, don't begin your post with:
i know i’ll be hated on here as not much negative stuff is allowed here….
. It’s a subtle hint that you’re only going to be negative and you don’t recognize that we usually have rational discussions about the positive and negative aspects of Penn State football. We just don’t appreciate when someone ONLY posts negative things and NEVER has anything good to say about the program.
Save BSD
feel free to read all prior posts...
i wouldnt exactly call myself a doom and gloomer….this isnt the first day i have ever posted. but looking at the firestorm my post created should tell you something….im trying to have a debate but many can’t accept reality.
People have a different definition of "reality"
Which is fine. No one thinks exactly the same.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
im trying to have a debate but many can’t accept reality.
I would argue that most of the naysayers who are critical of Joe and the program are the ones who can’t accept reality that there’s far more to life than wins and losses on a football field and the impact that PSU football has made in the lives of student-athletes over the years – and currently – is plenty good enough to allow the current football leadership to continue.
But YMMV.
There is room for debate here..
…you just don’t like that you are being called out. Therefore we are being mean.
I completely disagree that PSU hasn’t been competitve against what you consider good teams. Aside from Bama game this year (which I will argue we were competitive everywhere but the redzone) we have been competitive, but had some bad bounces, made some poor decisions or just adjusted too late.
GIve an example of real team you feel that we weren’t competitive against.
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
here are some...
we were no match for USC in the rose bowl and refused to adapt….though the game was close, iowa basically outplayed us and smothered us in 09…same with OSU but that game wasnt nearly as close. osu basically dominated us. bama this year, iowa this year, illinois this year and osu this year (though we were solid in the first half). ill say it again but we have 30% winning % against teams in the top 25 since 2000 (and that’s again including team like 08 wisky who was ranked but ended up being 7-6). im being honest and not snarky, do you honestly think 30% is good?
Do you honestly think that 2000-2004 is relevant?
In the entire history of the Joe Paterno era, that 5-year stretch is an obvious outlier where we were flat out awful. And I mean bad. That 2003 team may have been the brand name football team I’ve ever seen. It was completely embarrassing.
But in the past 5 years, we’ve been remarkably good. In the 30-some odd years before 2000, we were remarkably good. So what makes that 5 year stretch so special that it’s a stat that must be taken into account. Why not 2005-2010? Or 1995-2010? Or 1980-2010?
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
50% Success Rate
Against Top 25 from the years 2005-2010. According to Wikipedia. We are 12 for 24.
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
depends on the context
if you consider that the top 25 represent the top 1/4 of all teams, and that if the games were evenly distributed against teams ranked 1-25 then you’d be expected to win 30% of the games if you were at the bottom 30% mark. That would put us at ranking of 17.
So next I take your date range which includes the worst period in Penn State football under Joe Paterno and realize that using the worst date range possible, Penn State is still around the 17th best team in the country. So no, 30% doesn’t seem that bad. I’d also have to know what other teams winning % looks like against top 25 competition to make an adequate comparison (a number I don’t actually know)
Of course if you use overall winning percentage from that date range we aren’t actually that good (actually fall around 29th best team, though if you use the range of 2005 on, which is the more favorable range, then we’re the 7th best team)
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
Disagree
USC in Rose Bowl—it was the 2nd quarter. Otherwise, statistically we were pretty equal with USC. They had us beat in the air, yet we ran better than we did. The two interceptions is what cost us that game.
Iowa in 2009 again it was a game where mistakes cost us.
I will give you the tOSU game last year. They completely outplayed us. But the games this are complete BS. We had brand new QB , lost a lot of guys on defense. Of course we are going to struggle against top 25 teams. Hell look at Florida. They freaking struggled. Or Texas! They struggled this year.
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
Those two interceptions came way late in the game during a long shot comeback.
What lost us that game was poor safety play, a great opposing QB who threw a fantastic deep ball, and Stephfon Green’s fumble near the end of the 2nd quarter that gave USC another possession which the converted for a score.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
That certainly didn't help.
Royster a much bigger loss than Green. He was running for something like 6 ypc.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
I hate talking about that game and the "almost" possibilities
since it just seems like griping, but Penn State really wasn’t as bad in that game as people like to claim based on the halftime/final scores.
Did we win? No. Should we have won? Probably not. Were we blown out? Yes. Did we play a tough, close, hard fought game for all but like 5 plays? Yes
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2010 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
that is exactly my point
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
i could even throw some SEC teams in there but i know that’s sacrilegious to alot here because unfortunately many here think that everyone that plays at PSU is a model citizen and student (never mind the off the field instances regarding alcohol or weed etc).
To address this, people here slam the SEC based on shady recruiting practices and ignoring NCAA rules. Not because kids get into trouble. Paying players to come to your school is just kinda not cool and wrong and falls directly on the coaching staff and school administration. And oversigning is shady as heck.
Anyone who expects PSU players to never get in trouble would be beyond delusional. You don’t have 85+ males in the 18-22 year old range and not have them get into trouble. Take a similar sample of “regular” PSU students and you’ll find just as much trouble with the law, quite frankly. The big things that schools can do is try to mentor the kids to avoid such situations and then properly discipline when the inevitable happens. But I don’t think anyone is by and large criticizing other schools because of the occasional athletic getting into some trouble.
totally agree which is why i truly believe we should be on par with teams
like osu, texas and oklahoma etc. there has never been any reports of these types of schools paying kids off and yet they compete almost every year. you may not think it but i love psu and i hold my alma mater in such esteem that i think we should be in the same elite class as these teams.
You realize that most of those schools graduate like less than 50% of their players, right? I’ll pass, thank you very much.
I’d rather go 10-3 with dignity than 13-0 with a sham of student athletics.
But then we wouldn't be elite.
Also, not for nothing, but just a month ago an article in Sports Illustrated alleged that Santonio Holmes, a recent Ohio State player, was being taken care of by agents. And Oklahoma had that whole “no show job” scandal at a car dealership with Rhett Bomar.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
Are we going to have this "blind optimism" discussion on here again?
Let me just save time and refer you to the Offensive and Defensive Grades posts, which are littered with things that the coaching staff and players did horribly wrong on Saturday.
It’s not blind optimism to say that we’ve been good for the last several years, competitive in our conference and nationally, and beaten some good teams. Teams like Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Oregon State, LSU, Tennessee, etc. And the people who were banned earlier this week were adding nothing to the dialogue – they posted hundreds of times with one-line snarky comments that essentially amounted to talking points that couldn’t be backed up during rational debate. Then they got upset when people told them their logic was circular, their “facts” incomplete, and their arguments faulty. And THEN they started with nasty comments to a guest who was a Boise State fan who was interested in legitimate conversation.
You can be negative all you want. You won’t get banned. You may get embarrassed. Life’s not that bad as a Penn State fan. I don’t think you’re a problem like the others that we’ve dealt with over the past month. We just disagree….for now.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Life’s not that bad as a Penn State fan.
This. A hundred times this.
I don’t get all the negativity (well, I get it about this past season) with our performance in recent years. We’ve been one of the best teams in the country since 2005. We’ve been clearly the second best team in the Big Ten. We could do better, but the idea that somehow the team have been disappointing or not enjoyable in recent seasons is something I just can’t understand.
I guess I blame it on the instant gratification of today’s society, because we’ve done plenty fine in recent year to, I dunno, allow our iconic long time head coach to continue to coach as long as he wants.
I don't know how you keep doing this.
Reading here, at Slow States, and at BHGP over the past few weeks has just completely worn me out. I need a vacation from football. If it was summer, I’d go camping or hiking or something in VA.
At least we're not Michigan since 1855.
Beat some mediocre SEC team or whatever.
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2010 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
I've taken to skipping BSD right after games.
One week I just took off for the sake of my own sanity. It’s hitting everyone.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
I've been a part of BSD for 2 1/2 years, even if I didn't post back then.
Some people are trying to come in and change the culture and we’re rebelling (rightfully so) about the culture change. But it is time consuming and exhausting.
Save BSD
Eh, somebody's gotta do it.
Plus, I don’t post as often as SOME people around here. Jeeeez.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Dec 1, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, I know, but I’d wager less than 3% of my comments are related to the JoePa situation.
At least we're not Michigan since 1855.
Beat some mediocre SEC team or whatever.
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2010 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
Going by SBN's search tool
1462 out of 29857 posts and comments (4.8%) include a reference to words commonly associated with Iowa. Of course, this does not take into account comments that were about Iowa but did not include any distinguishing phrases.
I estimate 10-12% of my comments and posts are related to Iowa
At least we're not Michigan since 1855.
Beat some mediocre SEC team or whatever.
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
what percentage are related to doe estrus?
what percentage were written while hopped up on doe estrus?
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2010 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
I thought I was facetiously overshooting on that,
but I didn’t realize it was by THAT much.
Save BSD
sorry, but...
correction
I estimate 10-12% of my comments and posts are related to my undying love and psychopathic infatuation and schoolgirl crush with Iowa
"Life is no way to treat an animal"
by Mr. Rosewater on Dec 1, 2010 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
False.
At least we're not Michigan since 1855.
Beat some mediocre SEC team or whatever.
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2010 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
OK
“Competing” to you sounds a lot like “winning.” The fact is, Penn State was in the hunt for a share of the Big Ten title as late as the OSU game. By the definition of “competing” Penn State does compete for the Big Ten title every year, and even by the narrower standard of being close is usually in the hunt until at least November.
And with three top 10 finishes in 6 years, its hard to argue Penn State isn’t in the MNC mix fairly regularly, too. When you get that close, it’s a punt block here and an interception there. Penn State got those plays in the ‘80s. They didn’t this decade. Fate has a lot more to do with that than a lot of people like to think, likely you included.
Adam
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Nov 30, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
Fate is having four undefeated seasons and not getting an opportunity to win a national championship on the field. Fate is also 2007 LSU, who won one with 2 losses. That’s life.
I can't believe I only have 4 hours to tailgate. Somehow this is Lee Corso's fault.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 30, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
fate is your explanation? come on your better than that.
fate is a made-up concept so people can feel good about things they can’t explain or comprehend.
Would semi-random chance be better?
Fate is often thrown around to describe the semi-randomness in many situations. Was it fate that you got accepted into a particular school? Probably not, most likely it was because the school was going to accept a certain number of applicants and you happened to be selected as one of the (20, 40, 80, insert random percentage) of people admitted.
A better word would have been chance, but the meaning is the same. A handful of crucial elements went one way instead of another.
"I have my Joe Paterno autograph already, but I don’t know that I’d begrudge anybody else from getting theirs no matter their age. That’s kind of like meeting Winston Churchill." jesse. @ BSD
I would argue that PSU is “great” currently, simply from a prospective of on the field performance. They could be better, as a handful of schools are. But trying to make that jump from where PSU recently has been to tOSU/Florida/Texas/etc. levels is a complicated white whale. Sure, a difference coach might get us there, but at what cost? And, really, there’s no guarantee that switching a head coach would have that result anyway. I again bring up the cautionary tale of Michigan who pushed Lloyd Carr out the door because they were unsatisfied with merely being very good and signed on a hot shot coach in Rich Rod who had been conference titles and BCS games and, well, it hasn’t turned out so hot for them.
Thank you for articulating what I have so far been unable too
by psuphysicist on Nov 30, 2010 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
I just get very frustrated with all the people who think that firing JoePa, clearing house and signed Fitzgerald or Harbaugh or Golden or whomever will be the sudden panacea for everything “wrong” with PSU football and that we’ll start firing off 12+ wins every year, win the conference 2/3 of the time, win an MNC within 3 years and whatever. It might happen, sure. Or it might not. Ask Notre Dame how it’s gone switching coaches. Or Michigan. Or Nebraska. Or Miami (FL). Or UCLA. It took Alabama a bunch of coaches until they got Saban. Y’know, it’s fairly easy to get a clunker and the problem is that you won’t know it until it’s too late.
Furthermore, it’s extremely difficult to get the kind of winning that some people want (to be like Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, USC, Florida, etc.) without bending or breaking the rules or getting mercenary players that aren’t interested in being students. I’m sure some PSU fans would be okay with that, but a ton would be extremely pissed to see us stomping on the principles that JoePa has built.
I just think it’s a far more complex situation than people think and the irony is that the next coach that comes along with probably more or less perform about as well as JoePa has done since 2005. Maybe a bit better, maybe a bit worse. But in recent years, we’ve basically been the exact same PSU that we were for the first 30 years of Joe Pa’s career, so I don’t understand why it’s suddenly become so unacceptable.
by Laaaaazzz on Nov 30, 2010 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
22-4 in 08 and 09 and this year we knew it would be a down year due to the QB situation (thanks Pat Devlin). Even huge powerhouses like Florida and Texas stink after a vet QB leaves. That’s just how it goes.
Two legit runs at titles in the past five years.
You can’t win every year. You can’t even compete every year. That is the nature of big time college athletics. Even in Basketball powerhouses like Duke and great coaches like Coach K have bad runs.
JoePa is still getting it done.
by Blokee on Nov 30, 2010 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i love paterno and respect the man immensely, but we need to start questioning our standards.
My standards:
1. Recruit student athletics who will excel in the classroom and graduate
2. Run a clean program
…
3. Win as many football games as possible.
Paterno is doing just just fine with the more important #1 and #2. And our performance in recent seasons – including this years 7-5 down year – is good enough that he should stay if he wants.
I don’t ever want PSU to sacrifice it’s principles of success with honor just for a few more wins. And I really don’t want to see a school that would fire their head coach after a 7-5 season one season after finishing in the top 10 and bringing in a monster recruiting class.
I hear the Northwestern thing thrown around all the time but it's misleading
None of PSU’s championships came in a down year for the Big Ten, one of Northwestern’s did, and their championship in 1996 was when they backed into sharing it with Ohio State (we handed them a 34-9 loss. Only reason we didn’t share is because we somehow lost to Iowa that year. Their only season where they were best in conference was in 1995 where they went 8-0 in conference and finished #8 in the nation. Let’s look at the list of years each team finished with a 6-2 or better conference record since 1993: I say 6-2 because that’s good enough to win or share at least some years.
Northwestern: 1995, 1996, 2000
Penn State: 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 2005, 2008, 2009
Now let’s look at seasons with at least eight wins since 1993.
Northwestern: 1995, 1996, 2000, 2008, 2009
Penn State: 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
Every year but this one and the dark years we’ve had at least nine wins since joining the Big Ten and we’ve had seven 6-2 or better conference records. Northwestern has had five nine win seasons and three 6-2 or better years. Unlike the Wildcats, Penn State is usually in the thick of the Big Ten race, even when we don’t win.
by Altoona Man on Dec 1, 2010 6:30 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I really like this way of looking at it
Thank you.
"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"
statistics can tell you anything
68% of the people know that.
But seriously, Simpsons quotes aside, I love what you did here. It is one of the most irritating arguments I have ever heard that because penn state and northwestern have had the same number of championships we are somehow equally successful in the big ten. What I like about what you did is it puts into numbers the argument I always make, like how many times have we been one play in one game away from having a lot more championships. Not that i really should ever have to explain away Penn State’s successes to another Penn State fan.
by swiggy04 on Dec 1, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Plus, we will be adding 2010 to the "eight win" column very soon.
When we beat Florida in the Gator Bowl.
I also forgot to mention that in 1996 we blew out Texas 38-15 in the Fiesta Bowl, a bowl that would eventually become a BCS bowl, while two out of three Northwestern championships ended with them playing in the Citrus Bowl.
Stephen Smith a loud mouthed moron. He doesn’t even know much about the sports he does cover, let alone college football. Linking an article from him only makes us all dumber.
/sounds hot
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Stephen A. Jagoff...
It’s one thing for a PSU fan to call for Joe’s job. It’s quite another for someone like Smith to do it. I think that s.o.b. just likes to hear himself talk.
I think he just needed an article to write.
So he wrote one.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
Pretty sure he wrote one in September too.
Uhh, Stephen, the Heat are 9-8 and talking about firing their coach. Write another column about them.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
He's doing his job.
Badly. We probably shouldn’t reward it with attention.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
I still have yet to have someone explain to me
…how this guy is still employed. I have not once met anyone that considers themselves a fan of his. He was on the morning radio here for about a week before getting yanked due to the outcry.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
This is how I feel about Nickelback.
Who likes them?
I can't believe I only have 4 hours to tailgate. Somehow this is Lee Corso's fault.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 30, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is he really saying that keeping Paterno around is better financially?
I honestly thought he was setting up to argue the opposite – that we’re sacrificing a lot of money by not bring in a Nick Satan or LesMilestopheles and making annual runs at the BCS title.
I’d hate either argument, but at least one wouldn’t be completely and entirely wrong.
Only people we pay Joe peanuts,
and would have to shell out 4 times as much for a new coach.
Save BSD
Someone please explain to me why this loudmouthed clown gets a paycheck?
And why should Smith stop railing against a man who’s done more good with his life than he could ever dream about? Not only that, JoePa is still better at his job than Smith is at his. I think someone should point that out to him.
Easy rec
and I would have added another +5 for your last paragraph if I could have.
Losing a game is heartbreaking. Losing your sense of excellence or worth is a tragedy. -JVP
Nicely written, Fugi
We may all get frustrated sometimes with what goes on with the football program (recruiting, off the field stuff, play calling), but I feel like those people forget that without this man, NONE of that would exist. We wouldn’t have a 107,000 seat stadium, five undefeated seasons (4 of which were uncrowned), 2 national championships, and two seasons in the past five years where we were a combined 3 seconds from possibly playing in the MNC game (I think Iowa 2008 was down to the last second field goal IIRC, I’ve tried to black out that horrible day from memory unsuccessfully). And that’s ON the field accomplishments. I could probably continue to write a novel about his off the field accomplishments.
Look, we know he isn’t going to last forever, and I can’t speak for anyone else, but I feel like we owe him as an icon of our school and the PSU community who has done so much, and someone who has been a constant in so many of our lives for many, many years (my entire life so far). Maybe I’m just hopelessly naive, but I think we at least owe him to go out on his own terms. And I’m not in denial, yes he has seemed to slow down significantly this season. But we’re talking about the same man who we all though was on his deathbed from flu a few years ago, recovered, got his knee taken out, bounced back, then tried to demonstrate an onsides kick, needed a hip replaced, and came back, got intestinal issues over the summer, and STILL (for the first time in a while, ran out of the gate with his team instead of sneaking out the side). He’s still got fight in him.
I think there were 21 seconds on the clock after Murray's FG was called 'good'.
…of course, despite being there in person, I’ve also blocked it out.
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
There was only a second left
I remember their students rushed the field after the kick but had to leave the field because there was still a second left, maybe 2
I seem to recall us running at least two plays...
They had to clear the field at least once, and I think two or three times before the game was officially over.
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
Nah, they just scribbed the following kickoff,
and one of our upmen(?) just fell on it as the clock ran out
my little two cents about SAS
If anyone remembers (who can’t) the Outside the Line piece about how Joe Pa was losing control of the football team, during the segment after having the kid in the Meridian demonstrating how one of the players was throwing ’bow’s , S.A.S. and his corn puffs was brought in to give his opinion about Joe Pa and the situation – especially since he’s based out of Philly.
He first starts off with an intelligent remark by calling Penn State – “University Of Pennsylvania State”, then proceeds to say Joe is old and he needs to leave immediately.
No-one respects his opinion, so please don’t waste your time trying to understand it. If he can’t get the name of the biggest university in HIS own state, why even bother paying heed to him. If it wasn’t for his editor, he probably wouldn’t know which conference we were in.
We have little tranquility but tons of tranquilizers.
Be careful what you ask for
There is an old adage; Never follow a legend. Take a look at what happened to Bama (The Bear), USC (Robison), Oklahoma (Switzer), Nebraska (Osborn), BYU (LaValle), UCLA (Wooden), all programs suffered miserably after the legend left. The same will happen to PSU after Joe leaves. To think otherwise is just a dilusion. The new man will come in and change the systems and the schemes. There will be resistance to change and it won’t be pretty for both the players or the fans.Odds are stacked against who ever tales Joes place. I will take the stability and consistancy that Joe brings for another year. There will be plenty of time for turbulence awaiting the Lions in the future. The sports writers will enjoy the turbulence because it is self serving and gives then something to write about. Enjoy the legend why we can.
by PRad on Nov 30, 2010 6:47 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I like this point
There are only a few coaching legends in the history of college football. And to follow in the footsteps of one of those giants is to invite completely unrealistic expectations and comparisons. The chances of anyone being able to repeat what JoePa has done anywhere are slim. What makes people so certain that the next PSU head coach will be a legend, or even have close to the amount of success Joe Pa has had.
by psuphysicist on Nov 30, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
if anything, JoePa sticking around "too long" will only help the next coach out
since if JoePa really does sink PSU to the depths people assume, then the next coach can only go up ;-)
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
This is why Bradley is the only sensible answer
Blowing up the program and starting from scratch with a new staff, we would have no idea what we’re about to get, but it’s virtually certain it’d be worse than what we have.
We have transitioned into a system where Bradley is practically co-head coach anyway. This is a system that has been working very, very well since 2005. Under this system, Joe can hand the reins over to Bradley, and the program will scarcely miss a beat. Malcontents will complain about the defense this year, proffering it as evidence that Bradley is a bad coach. I think the defenses of the past decade are much more persuasive evidence that he’s a great coach.
Even with Bradley (or LJ, or anyone else from within the program), there’s no guarantee that things will just sail right along. But I think it gives us a better chance at sustained success than starting from scratch.
by newenglandnittanylion on Nov 30, 2010 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
I agree as well and feel that’s been the right answer for years. Name Bradley the successor, let him take over. Worse case scenario is you fire him in 2 years and go out and hire your “name” coach them. Best case is that he is successful. Either way, I don’t suddenly see us becoming a 4-8 team under Scrap.
But how many of those coaches were hired because they were "the next hot thing" in CFB?
I’m actually asking, I really don’t know. Were those hires from inside the staff, or because these next coaches were up and coming and looked like they could still lead the team to greatness.
I think (at least I’d hope) we put a little more faith into the guy we would hire instead of basing it on recent possibly unrelated (lower division) success. I mean look at Golden, he coaches the right way, he’s a disciple of Joe, and to sweeten the deal, he’s got two Penn Staters in prominent positions on his staff, so he obviously trusts the quality of people we produce.
I still think the next coach will be in-house, but I think it will be because they’ll uphold the traditions of PSU football, not some new hot-shot coach who people suddenly believe is god, and ends up sucking, and being a colossal douchea….cough…Kiffen…cough.
At the same time, I don't think it's fair to dismiss outside coaches as "hot shot."
Sure, a guy like Fitzgerald’s a “hot” name, but he’s also a very good coach. But at some point, Northwestern’s not going to have enough resources to let him compete at a high level and he’s going to plateau. Does that make him less of a good coach?
Urban Meyer was a “hot” name, but it’s not like that wasn’t earned. He had won everywhere he had gone previously and had a very unique offense.
Maybe the best person to lead the program comes from inside or maybe it’s someone who can inject new thinking. I truly believe you can’t just hand Bradley or LJ the job. There has to be a national search in order for Penn State to gauge the best available candidate. That’s who we should be hiring, and that doesn’t necessarily correlate with either the hottest outside name or the most tenured staff member.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
I should have clarified
Fitzgerald would go into my acceptable category, and not just “the next hot name in Coaching”. He’s an excellent coach, runs a clean program, a lot like Golden. Golden and Fitz are along the same lines: they’ve built up their programs from abysmal depths into respectable programs, maybe not BCS caliber yet, but very respectable.
What I meant was someone who’s not afraid to bend the rules to get the best players and make the best program possible, so the school hires them for their ability to turn programs into winners. I should have made that more clear.
lets see, you already named Kiffen, an up and comer replacing Folmer, a legend
RR at Michigan, hot new name trying to raise a legendary program
Kelly, to early to judge at ND
Weiss at ND
I laughed that Miami actually offered Gruden
Show me an elitist, and I'll show you a loser.
Tom Clancy
I think
Kelly will win at ND. He seems like a solid coach. I just find it hard to look past that tragedy this year.
I was really surprised that his career there started the way it did.
I was convinced— still am— that he can do great things over there. That said, I felt horrible for what happened at ND. It’s the sort of thing that can derail anyone.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
STEPHEN A. SMITH IS THE WORST THING ABOUT tWWL
THE WORST.
That is all.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
I don't get it.
Since 2005, PSU is ranked only behind Ohio State in Big Ten Wins.
I know it’s not perfect, but there are 9 other teams out there with worse Big Ten Records.
Which programs would he put forth as being superior?
Obviously, this guy needs attention, and throws crap at people in order to attract their attention.
He is not alone. There are many other ‘Journalists’ who attempt to make a living by pissing off the largest amount of readers.
It works.
Elizabeth, with Vin Scully, only folks working longer than JoePA at same place!
by joefromboalsburg on Nov 30, 2010 7:02 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
even including the worst stretch of football in Penn State's history
and using 2000 as the starting point, PSU still only trails OSU, Michigan, and Iowa for conference wins.
So basically, Penn State at its worst is still the 4th best team in the conference
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
This deserves more rec's than I'm allotted.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
Stephen A. Smith has shown himself in the past to be so uninformed about PSU I feel he has no right to talk about us.
That is all.
At least we're not Michigan since 1855.
Beat some mediocre SEC team or whatever.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 30, 2010 7:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Paterno isn't coaching
The writers here at Black Shoe Diaries have been hanging out with the Pitt apologists, that pitiful group of administrators and fans who believe Dave Wannstedt is going to get it all together eventually so give him another chance.
What are your goals, Nits? You have removed yourself from the national championship dialogue? You believe it just won’t happen? Then your are just like the Pittsburgh media who believe Pitt will never be a national power again.
Oh yes, the Nits have reached “national power” status time and time again, but you will never win a national title with your old coach. He isn’t running anything except a good PR department. Look at him at games. Bradley and the dude with the red hair seem to be covering everything.
I don’t dislike Paterno. He is holding your program back. And your ongoing defense, infatuation, excuse-making for 7-5 seasons and 10-2 when you were almost there, so close to a title you could sniff it, is pathetic. Wanna bitch about something that has meaning? Keep bringing up ‘94 when you had a great case for the national title. Joe still had it then. But somebody screwed you. I think if was the Big Ten, but I’m not sure.
Go home, Joe. It’s long past time.
One 7-5 season
and all these cockroaches come right out of the woodwork.
A friendly reminder to please resist feeding the trolls.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
I’m not really sure what the point of this post is.
1. PSU isn’t removed from the national championship dialogue. Hell we were in the MNC hunt late int he season all of 2 seasons ago. We finished in the top ten last season. Yeah, we just had a down year for our standards. So did Texas and Florida. It happens.
2. Odds are that Pitt will never be a national power again. That’s just the reality of college football. I mean, maybe for a year or three it could happen, but it’s tough for any non-elite team to develop sustained national prowess. Pitt got lucky in the 70’s and early 80’s, but for some 60 years or so has shown their level to be that of an average to slightly above average 1-A team, not elite.
3. We may or may not ever win an MNC again with Paterno at the helm (odds certainly are against that happening) but that reflects how difficult it is to win an MNC, not some limitation on JoePa’s part. He’s had at least 2 championship caliber teams in the last 6 years, there’s no reason that’s implicitly can’t happen again in the near future.
4. At this point, what really is screwing PSU IMHO is the school leadership not committing to the coaching staff and giving them extended contracts and letting them sell to recruits. Putting the staff in limbo is what’s hurting more than the abilities of Paterno and the rest of the coaching staff. YMMV.
+1,000,000
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
Hey - That hurts!
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
Who you callin' rational?
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
I found another “Boys are Stupid” related image but am saving it for BSD After Dark
400. That is all.
Not a rabbit. A squirrel with a machine gun
At least we're not Michigan since 1855.
Beat some mediocre SEC team or whatever.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 30, 2010 8:00 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
This picture is terrifying
With all the squirrels on campus, they could lead an uprising, and we’d never have a chance. We’d be Acorn State Univeristy in no time.
They already use students for target practice.
I swear they hide up in the trees trying to see how many students they can hit with acorns. I bet they even have a point system, like 20 points for a freshman, 15 for a sophomore, etc. And if anyone has fed them, then they get an automatic pass.
Save BSD
I once got a squirrel to take a Goo Goo Dolls promotional flyer I was paid to hand out
I don’t think it wound up going to the concert, though (can you blame it?)
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Me too!!!
Especially their non radio songs. Acoustic #3 is probably my fave
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
i find Johnny Reznik extremely good looking
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
I've seen them open for BonJovi and Counting Crows
his voice is just amazing. And one of the few rock bands that sound as good live as they do on their cds.
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
I saw them co-headline a tour with Counting Crows.
The Counting Crows sucked, but the Goo Goo Dolls were great. I’d love to see them again.
Save BSD
and thought I was forgetting a "gunman on campus" event that happened there
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
That was a gunwoman
I don’t know how many times I had Jill for a waitress at the Diner. That really creeped me out more than anything else about that whole situation.
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
Welcome
Thanks for contributing to this post bashing a guy for not being close enough to the situation to understand it, yet commenting on it by not understanding the situation and commenting on it.
Adam
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Nov 30, 2010 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
We are the Nittany Lions NOT the Nits.
If you don’t want to type the whole thing, then just call us the Lions. I NEVER once heard anyone who went to Penn State call us the Nits. This irritates the crap out of me. It’s like Alabama and Auburn fans calling each other Bammers and Barners. Nits is insulting.
Save BSD
by Paige2PSU on Nov 30, 2010 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I did not know that
I thought people called you guys the “Nitts” all the time, but not as an insult.
You honestly preferred being called “Lions” to “Nitts”?
hmmmmmm…. seriously, not trying to be snarky, just rather surprised…. because I didn’t know that (and if you ask Mrs CN, I think I know everything – Ha!)
Go Big Red Nebraska!
Our Cobs Are Bigger Than Yours!
Corn Nation!
Twitter!
cornnation@gmail.com
by Jon Johnston on Nov 30, 2010 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
It is true.
Onward State, onward State
Roar, Lions, roar
The student section at our BB arena took to calling themselves the Nitt-Wits a few years back, but I’m not even entirely sure that stuck.
Oh, and BEAT OKLAHOMA!
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
Chokelahoma?
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
I love Chocolahoma?
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
I LOVE COUNT CHOCULA!
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
ToucanSamlahoma?
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 9:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not the team, the nickname.
I first heard it in the Boise’s field is blue video and laughed out loud.
Save BSD
You need to get out more.
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
I know - football stops at the Arkansas and Ohio rivers
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
Well la dee da
Miss Bamamama
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
MBam for short
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Can you at least call me Miss Auburn?
Seeing as how, 1) I hate Alabama (the team), and 2) I have no kids?
Save BSD
I like 'The Slammer' for an Alabama-related nickname myself
But then maybe I over-indulged at the Lion’s Den one too many times while I was in school…
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
It's a good drink,
but I’m afraid it would draw too many TWSS’s. I’ve tarnished my sterling reputation on here enough!
Save BSD
Never.
The honor of a BSDiva is a sacred thing. You’re among brothers here.
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
Guh-huh!
/sucker for such things
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah,
not that it would tarnish your rep, but I would feel dirty using it.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
If I call you Miss Auburn,
how much will I have to pay for you to commit?
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Bravo, Sir.
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
Kiss my grits!
Y’all ALL know where I stand on this (but you also know that I’ve come to expect the teasing)! I’ll be the one laughing when the claims are proven to have no foundation.
Save BSD
It wouldn't be fun if I didn't know that
was your position.
But seriously, don’t hold your breath. Team is going to be 0-14 when the NCAA is done.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
We will beat the sanctions!
We WILL beat the sanctions!
(I’m sorry, you’re teeing these up)
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
What can I say,
I’m good like that. But I love Auburn almost as much as I love Penn State. I live in Alabama where this is discussed ad nauseum, so I think I’m pretty informed, but admittedly biased.
Save BSD
You wouldn't need to be that informed
to be more informed than I. I am just having fun.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
I know,
and I am taking all the ribbing good naturedly, but I’m not going to back off of Auburn until something has been proven to me.
P.S., just heard a new tidbit about the song issue at the Iron Bowl that I am going to post on that fanpost.
Save BSD
I know Eric Ramsey was years ago, but he was still only the tip of the iceberg back then. It’s almost impossible to believe Auburn is a clean program considering their long history of corruption and considering the fact that the same people are still in charge.
Besides, jokes are funny.
At least we're not Michigan since 1855.
Beat some mediocre SEC team or whatever.
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
Eric Ramsey was the ONE instance,
I’m certainly not aware of any others. Hell, Emmet Smith chose Florida over Auburn because they gave him a Beamer. And the circumstances behind the Eric Ramsey situation were not Auburn paying him to come there, it was helping him out of a bind once he got there (not that that’s any excuse). But Auburn did not set out to pay Ramsey to come to Auburn. Galen Hall got Florida on probation for a similar situation.
Save BSD
Well, that was in reference to a search I did using the NCAA's website
https://web1.ncaa.org/LSDBi/exec/miSearch
They listed five “major infractions” in ’57, ’58, ’79, ’80, and ’93.
I’m not trying to pick on you in particular, but it’s just not surprising that there’s controversy around that program now. That’s all.
As for Galen Hall, he took over at UF after his boss Charlie Pell was fired for 107(!) violations that took place before Hall showed up. His only NCAA trouble came later in his career at Florida when he paid his assistants with his own money.
At least we're not Michigan since 1855.
Beat some mediocre SEC team or whatever.
by ReadingRambler on Dec 1, 2010 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
Thirty years and one infraction.
Since the Pat Dye era, Ramsey was the only proven infraction. I don’t remember enough from 80 and before, but I have followed Auburn closely since the early 80s to now.
Save BSD
Y'all All know where to find the redundant department of redundancy
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 30, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
Guess not, since you didn't pick up
on the fact that I did that on purpose (and I’d be the first to say oops if I didn’t realize I had done that!).
Save BSD
I think that it's a common sentiment.
I’m not saying that other people don’t say it all the time, and I’m not saying they are not trying to be insulting. But I think you’d find most Penn Staters strongly disliking it.
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
Do you realize what a nit is (I'm not asking in a snarky way, I just don't want to spell it out here)?
This is something that I’ve only come across or maybe paid attention to this season. We have signs that say, “Love ya Lions,” a cheer that says, “Let’s go Lions,” so yes, I would prefer just being called Lions to being called Nits.
Save BSD
Welcome
Yes, generally “Lions” is used in situation when Nittany Lions is too cumbersome. Like here for instance.
I am so pumped about getting to play you guys starting next year. It is not time to hate yet, though, so I will say good luck.
Am I the only one who hears that word spoken by Marlon Brando whenever I read it?
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
Superman
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
I very rarely - if ever - see PSU fans call the Lions Nitts.
It’s almost always used by outsiders. I would also estimate at least 75% of the time it is used as an insult.
I called PSU the Nitts once, as a child, and my father corrected me and that was that.
At least we're not Michigan since 1855.
Beat some mediocre SEC team or whatever.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 30, 2010 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think I've ever called PSU the Nitts
but I do call my dog Nitters sometimes, and have even called her Nit on occasion.
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2010 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
Shame on you! LOL!
I call my dog Shadow, Shooey or Shoo-girl, not that it makes any sense, so calling your dog Nitts does not mean you have to call the Nittany Lions Nitts!
Save BSD
He is home.
He’s been here for decades. Whether you love or hate Paterno, there’s no arguing with the fact that he’s earned his place at Penn State.
Yeah, we had a bad season. Those happen to everyone. Nobody here really likes it. But we’ll live. Because, believe it or not, we are more than football. I’m glad you feel comfortable enough to post here, but if you could avoid talking crap about our legendary old pathetic coach, I’m sure we’d all appreciate it.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
the thing is...
…we didn’t have a bad season. We had a good season. We won more than lost. And that’s a good season.
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
True, we've had worse,
and we’ve had better, and we’re most likely going to play in a New Year’s Day bowl!
Save BSD
I've been spoiled
by the convenient timing of my youth. But I agree. We won more than we lost, and some of those wins were really special. I’ll never forget Michigan or Northwestern.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
Ehhhhh. Let's not go overboard.
This certainly wasn’t a good season. It was a rebuilding year. Some positives. Lots to work on. Plenty of potential. But good? No, I can’t say that in good conscience.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I think that’s a little extreme. We certainly had a disappointing season. I wouldn’t call it “good”, more like “mediocre” or “average”. And I think it’s fine to expect more of PSU – we have the resources and the history to do better. That doesn’t mean you should fire the whole coaching staff for one down season because they happen (see Texas and Florida for more info) but let’s not act like 7-5 is a success either.
That said, I would always get frustrated by the folks saying that some recent 9-4 seasons were not good enough and thus a sign we needed to get rid of Paterno – even though that is basically in line with his career winning percentage and is basically a “typical” JoePa season and certainly not something to be ashamed of.
STEPHEN A SMITH IS AN IDIOT
WHO WRITES AS IF HE’S SHOUTING, BECAUSE I SUPPOSE HE’S SHOUTING.
His point isn’t a terrible one, although he doesn’t articulate it properly. The University doesn’t care about 12-0 seasons as much as the message board fans do. They just don’t. They DO care about the money they’ll likely not make if JoePa isn’t coaching. However, there’s more to keeping Joe around besides just a few more Franklins in the bank. Graduating players, running a clean program, etc all help with the decision to keep Joe.
Plus, there would be unholy hell of bad PR if they tried to get rid of him now. Like it or not, it’s Joe’s call when he leaves.
by Tailgate Shogun on Nov 30, 2010 7:44 PM EST reply actions
However, there’s more to keeping Joe around besides just a few more Franklins in the bank. Graduating players, running a clean program, etc all help with the decision to keep Joe.
This. A thousand times this.
Plus, there would be unholy hell of bad PR if they tried to get rid of him now. Like it or not, it’s Joe’s call when he leaves.
I got into an argument with another guy about this. I say “firing” Joe right now would really hurt ticket sales with STEP as many folks would be disgusted that the university would force out an icon. He said that forcing out Paterno and hiring a “name” coach would energize the fan base and prevent the inevitable loss of season ticket holders who are disgusted by the 7-5 season.
I’m not sure who is right but it’s rough for me to wrap my head around the idea that many PSU fans want Paterno to be forcefully removed.
Seeing how we've sold out every year
INCLUDING the dark ages? Something tells me that demand is static, and a win here or a loss there won’t be changing much.
I’m certainly not buying any more tickets when Neuheisal takes over!
by Tailgate Shogun on Nov 30, 2010 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
We didn’t sell out season tickets during some of the dark years. Anyone with any NLC points could get season tickets.
That said, I don’t have much fear of us not selling out season tickets next season even with the STEP pricing – having Bama and Nebraska on the home schedule will keep demand very high.
Yep. They couldn't have timed that more perfecty
Even with the loss of the OSU game, it’s still an amazing home schedule.
by Tailgate Shogun on Nov 30, 2010 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
who is more likely to be a loyal customer?
People who would cancel tickets because of a bad season here or there, or people who would cancel tickets because they’re disgusted at the university not remaining loyal to a coaching legend?
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2010 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
We're all acutely aware that
As soon as Joe is gone they’ll just keep asking whether the new guy will live up to the legend that Joe was. It’s fate. Just give it time.
I know, its going to be like the "when are you retiring" questions Joe gets now.
It’s going to be the same stupid reporters with the same question, “Do you feel like you have a monkey on your back following in the footsteps of a legend?”
And if he answers in classic Paterno snark, I say whoever the coach is, he’s a keeper, lol
If there's one person I hate on ESPN
It’s Stephen A. Smith. Not even ’ol lazy eye Stuart Scott, Chris Berman (seriously, he shills for Applebees minutes after pushing Nutrisystem. Epic fail), or Skip Bayless even come close. And he trolled all of you by writing that article.
Step 1: Write negative article about Joe in Pennsylvania newspaper.
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit
And I’m sick and tired of the negativity on the interwebs that gets spouted off by people like Stephen A. Smith, Tony77019, Richard Aceto, and the like. Look, when the new coach comes in, he’s not going to live up to your expectations, regardless of what they are. If he’s going 10-1 in his third season, it won’t be enough, because didn’t Joe go 11-0 in his third season? If he’s got a 75% graduation rate, people will point to Joe’s 79% graduation rate. If one player steps out of line he won’t deal with it as good as Joe does. If he goes 8-4 at ANY time, people will want to fire him on the spot. I’m not looking forward to that at all.
1- pretty sure your grad rate for Joe is too low
2- don’t knock Richard Aceto
Personal Attack
'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno
by PSUinBOSSton on Nov 30, 2010 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
New meme for Richard Aceto and company is "And their ilk,"
I’m trying to perpetuate this as long as possible.
Save BSD
I o A
Ilk of Aceto
…also a state toward which we all feel some animosity. (Well, all of us except Rambler)
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
LOL!
I guess technically it should be ilk of brd, since he was the first one to call all of us Kool-aid drinkers an “ilk” and Mike called him out for it. Once I saw that, I thought we should take ownership of it and turn the tables! I’m soooo bad.
Save BSD
brd may have promoted it...
but my profile has said ‘Blue Kool-Aid Aficionado’ since the day I joined BSD.
"I’ll drink through the weirdness." - Illegal Formation
by leeharvey418 on Nov 30, 2010 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
Most of us drink a healthy dose of Blue Kool-Aid here,
but we’ve never been called ilk before (not that I know of).
Save BSD
I didn't go to Penn State because it had an excellent football program.
I went because it gave me a chance at an EXCELLENT education. Sure having a decent football program was nice (I went during the Dark Years), but no one picks a school just because of the football…except the players. But even the players know it’s about the EDUCATION first not the game at Penn State.
That is something that the negative nancys forget all the time. This is COLLEGE where EDUCATION comes first. If this were pro football, their arguments against JoePa would be valid. However this is COLLEGE football.
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
And lots of good bars.
Don’t forget the bars.
'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'
by Pete the Streak on Nov 30, 2010 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
My bad for forgetting the bars.
God, I miss MonkeyBoys and Nickel Nights.
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
Hell yes the bars
I miss monkey boys. I also miss dollar long island iced teas and pitchers of jack and coke. And people wonder why I have a drinking problem…
by psuphysicist on Nov 30, 2010 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
You're a Professional!
Drinking is a Profession at PSU not a problem ;o)
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
This topic creates so much tension I'm debating even posting in this thread
But here’s my perspective.
Penn State is a school first and foremost, not just a football team. And no one is more aware of this than Joe. He’s worked tirelessly to improve the university and make it one of the best in the world, and he played a significant part in why my degree is valuable well respected. I know everyone wants a 12-0 NC season every couple of years, but it’s just so insignificant next to having a good job afforded by hard work and a well-respected degree.
If Joe were just a football coach, just a guy there to win games, then maybe all of this crap would be worth talking about. But he’s more than a football coach. The big picture is that Joe continues to do a lot of good work for this school, and I don’t see how a 7-5 season erases any of that.
McGloin Despite Them
Preaching the McGospel since Aug. 2nd, 2010
by millzners on Nov 30, 2010 9:10 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
I have never once seen the level of responsibility Joe has held for more than half a century. I do not have any insight inside the walls of the Lasch Building.
So I feel tiny and rather silly in trying to a) Guess what is going on, and b) Judge the coaches.
Still, I am totally waffling on this. Just yesterday at Slow States, I said I thought Joe should probably call it quits. But, upon reflection, that’s not the truth. The truth is that I have little choice but to support our coaches – all of them – because of what you listed.
At least we're not Michigan since 1855.
Beat some mediocre SEC team or whatever.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 30, 2010 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
And you can see I'm waffling, because the above post is a rambling mess.
At least we're not Michigan since 1855.
Beat some mediocre SEC team or whatever.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 30, 2010 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
if Joe were irreparably hurting the program, that'd be one thing, but he is not.
Nor will he be here long enough to irreparably hurt the program. If people think bringing in a new coach now will be able to solve all the problems, why can’t that same (or similar) coach “fix” the school a few years from now? And that’s also assuming that he’s actually hurting the program, which he may not even be doing.
I also think if Joe were actually hurting the program irreparably, that he’d be the first person to call it quits.
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed
Didn’t he say in spring of 2005 “If we don’t start winning, I’ve got to get my behind out of here”? And not only did he start winning again, we’ve finished with three top-10 finishes since.
Articles like this make me so happy
that I don’t have cable tv, satellite radio, a sports magazine subscription, etc. If it weren’t for BSD, I wouldn’t even know who Stephen Smith and his ilk are.
Ignorance truly is bliss!!!
"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"
by NJ lion on Nov 30, 2010 10:18 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Steven A. Smith
really makes you appreciate Ron Cook’s well-written columns, doesn’t he?
Joe Paterno Apologist
Indeed
Aside from being wrong, this is just a horribly constructed column. He seems to think big words=good writing.
Adam
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Nov 30, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
with the way he talks, I sorta wonder if he relies on a thesaurus a bit too much.
He uses big fancy words, but I feel someone that actually had that vocabulary would also know how to properly construct an argument.
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2010 12:11 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I've talked with some people that try to impress with big words.
I’m the first to correct them on their misuse of the words or their use out of context since I actually know a lot of bombastic, mostly useless words. They usually slink off embarrassed.
Reminds me of Charlie in Always Sunny
When he tries to talk about law. Oh those episodes with the lawyer are always great.
by psuphysicist on Dec 1, 2010 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
let's not go that far.
Cook’s probably pissed he didn’t think of this article first.
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
STOP THE PRESSES!
Our very own dwf5095 has gotten into a VERY prestigious Honors program at Penn State. It will give her research opportunities and mentoring to get into graduate school and eventually earn a doctorate. We all know from her posts how intelligent she is, as well as kind, and a great addition to the Penn State family. I hope everyone else will join me in congratulating her on this wonderful accomplishment!
Save BSD
Congrats, diva!
Big day!
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
by Adam Collyer on Nov 30, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you!
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
well done!
this is a BIG deal. I bet your family is so proud of you!
Joe Paterno = Keeping the "College" in College Football
Congrats!!!
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
Congrats! Maybe she can go celebrate by studying
in the Carroll Tressell Kiffin Meyer Saban Rodruiguez Chizik Bowden Paterno library
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Thank you!
I did celebrate by hitting up an English viewing/discussion of the movie Fight Club. Now I’m celebrating by chillin’ on BSD and writing my essay watching Nick at Night.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
the Nanny is on here, as well
though I ’m not watching it
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2010 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
I love that stupid, stupid show.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
how does one not love that show?!
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
Congrats dwl5095
You’re a perfect example of what makes us all proud to be affiliated with Penn State.
Thank you!
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
Congrats to dwf5095!!
Even used her entire name there!!
Show me an elitist, and I'll show you a loser.
Tom Clancy
Thank you!
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
great post.
We should really all just enjoy him while he is around. It surely won’t be too long now.
A unique thread
We Penn Staters have something no other university in the nation can offer. We have this unique thread called Joe Paterno that binds all alumni from 1966 to today. I graduated in 81 and feel extremely comfortabe talking Penn State with graduates from all of the Paterno era. That old man binds us together unlike any other group of alums. We will lose this soon and become common over time.
by PRad on Nov 30, 2010 11:46 PM EST via mobile reply actions 2 recs
Boooo
Joe Paterno’s spirit will bond us forever!
"Life is no way to treat an animal"
by Mr. Rosewater on Dec 1, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The Real Question
The real question that needs to be asked in this debate is “Is Joe Paterno doing the actual job of a Head College Football Coach?” The answer to the question no matter how you spin it is no, and that no is indisputable. He has not made a recruiting visit since Pryor. That is three years ago. Recruiting is a major part of being a college coach. If he’s not doing that, what other duties is he not performing? If he is not willing to do all of the duties required by his job, why is he staying on? Has a multimillion dollar organization become a hobby for an 83 yr old man; an excuse to get him out of the house because he has nothing else to do with his time?
He's representing us
as more than a multimillion dollar organization. If this was just about football for him, he would’ve left us for the NFL years and years ago. Joe considers us more than football, I imagine we should do the same for him.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
Executive ability is deciding quickly and getting someone else to do the work.
"They say in Happy Valley that if God wasn’t a Penn State fan, why is the sky blue and white?" Fortt said. "Who am I to argue with God?"
I thought I heard that Mack Brown didn't visit recruits either.
Granted, Texas had a worse year than us despite having played for a NC last year, but are Texas fans calling for Brown’s head (that’s an honest question, not a rhetorical question, but my guess would be no)?
Save BSD
Then how did we get all of those 4 & 5 star recruits last year?
Joe didn’t visit them last year either.
Maybe Joe is ahead of his time on this – recruit players who truly want to be at PSU, rather than attempt to kiss the ass of 18 year olds who change their mind more often than they change their underwear.
by Tailgate Shogun on Dec 1, 2010 5:40 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
That is how Joe recruits
Even when he did visit kids, his talk consists of academics, what do you want to do with your life and WE want you to come to Penn State because it is Penn State. Not come play for ME. He wants recruits to choose the school, not the head coach.
Show me an elitist, and I'll show you a loser.
Tom Clancy
That’s the part I don’t get about the complaining. JoePa and company did just find gettnig amonster class less than a year ago. I don’t understand what fundamental change happened in the last year that would suddenly make PSU unable to get top recruits. It’s not like Joe has been actively recruiting in any recent season.
The only reasonable explanation I’ve heard is that the coaching staff is having trouble selling PSU because they can’t tell recruits they’ll be around beyond 2011 and so the future is in flux and it’s tough to sign a guy when can’t guarentee that you’ll be their for their college career (not that any coach can truly guarentee it, but it helps to have a contract for a number of seasons). But in that case, it strikes me that the blame falls not on the football coaches, but on the PSU admin who is not doing the right thing by pubicly committing to the coaching staff for a number of years. They don’t even have to commit to Paterno per se, but say that any member of the coaching staff that wants to stay after Paterno is gone is welcome to.
Mac Brown has never visited a recruit to Texas. Guess he is not a head coach.
Show me an elitist, and I'll show you a loser.
Tom Clancy
Stephen A. Smith.......
has a talk show AND he still writes some sort of column ? WTF is this world coming to. Oh well, look at the response he got here. Joe is old…No shiatt!!! Didn’t SAS get fired from his Philly News gig??? Not too old, just irrelevant.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
Stephen A Smith
His radio show is awful, made to appeal to Hip Hop nation, as if they are going to listen to a.m. radio in the mornings. Replaced a great Steve Czaben show that was informative and highly entertaining.
If you want to know what Jay Z and Beyonce are doing each day, listen to Smith, he’s got that covered.
How bout this question than
Do you honestly think that Penn State can win the big ten next year? I don’t. If you agree, than are you content with Penn State football being the same level as Michigan State instead of Ohio State?
I think we have a shot.
It’ll be harder now that there’s no such thing as a share of the title. But we’ve got a lot of talent in Redd, Bolden, and the younger guys on the D. We’ve got a pretty passionate leader in Stephfon Green. If guys step up it certainly isn’t impossible.
Besides, will a new coach make our situation for next year any better?
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
Everyone has a shot
I agree that a new coach wont make Penn State better next year but a change has to be made eventually. You will probably have a year or two of growing pains with a new coach. Would you rather start that process now or wait a year or more. i don’t see this staff bringing a big ten title and especially not a national title to Penn State. You can site the almost years of 2005 and 2008 as proof this staff is good enough. However, a championship staff does not kick the ball to Breaston in 2005 and a championship does not lose to Iowa……again and again and again. The Rose Bowl in 2008 showed all of us how far down the ladder Penn State is from the national elite (steriods and payouts included).
I agree that a coaching change will have to be made eventually
because I’m not stupid enough to think this will last forever. But that 2008 team was the shiznit up until that last week (I still shudder when I think about it), and their efforts landed Penn State in the Pre-Season top 10 in ‘09. I refuse to defend the 2005 squad because I think they are the last people in the world who need to be defended. Are we in the best place right now? No. But no college team stays on top of the world for very long. We have a legendary coach, a solid program, and a lot of hope. This season was a bit of a disappointment, but I don’t think we have much room to complain.
"We have the plainest uniforms you can make. We know who we are. We are Penn State, and that's something special."
Did you honestly think PSU could win the Big Ten in 2005?
Come on, that’s silly.
"I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on the negative. I believe that having a good, peaceful mind is the basic premise for a good life."
Yes, I do,
The guts of this team will be back with the experiences they got this season. Games @ Alabama, @ Iowa and @ O$U were key to development, but I would say that the home comeback game against Northwestern was the most important. Compare the team in the Illinois game and the team that played the Michigan State game. Where the team didn’t fight back at all against Ill, they kept clawing back against MSU and were within an onsides kick of MSU at the end.
The experience gained this season plus their talent will make them a serious contender to win the B10 next year. They will not be intimidated @ O$U next year, I don’t know how good Wisconsin will be next year (not sure who they’re losing). The rest of the division is Indiana, Illinois and Purdue. Not gimmies, but I see nothing that makes me think we wont win those games and get to the CCG.
"I have my Joe Paterno autograph already, but I don’t know that I’d begrudge anybody else from getting theirs no matter their age. That’s kind of like meeting Winston Churchill." jesse. @ BSD
by bconway6 on Dec 1, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well I don't honestly know
OSU is always tricky, but other than them, who’s the favorite to win the East? Will Wisky really be as good next year? They have some important seniors leaving, but have a lot of likely returning juniors and underclassmen that contributed a lot, so maybe they’ll still bulldoze through like they’ve been doing the past few games. I thought they looked like crap the first half of the season though, so who knows.
So basically we have to get past OSU, which (big surprise) is always going to be a tough thing to do. They are one of the top 3-5 teams in the country, routinely, so even if we’re the top 6-7th, we’d still not be favored to win.
As for who we’d have to face in the CCG…I don’t even know who could come out of the West next year. Iowa will be taking a step back, Sparty is Sparty (and will be losing a lot of key seniors, especially on the line), so will also likely be taking a step back. Nebraska comes in, and will probably roll through the West.
So while I wouldn’t say we are favorites to win, I’d probably put it at
OSU
Nebraska
Wisky, PSU
then the rest in no particular order
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
True story: The person who came up with "Joe Paterno is a mascot" was drunk.
And desribed Penn State to an outsider by saying “their mascot is Joe Paterno and their coach is the Nittany Lion”.
The second part of that quote has been lost to history.
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