It's Really Not That Crazy
Very well done argument for why Texas to the Big Ten is actually a pretty reasonable idea. Explained with numbers and facts and stuff.
What could make this not only possible but maybe even likely: if Colorado makes the first move with a jump to the Pac-10, leaving the Big XII in a bit of a bind and without one of their already-limited major markets.
over 2 years ago
KevinHD
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This is the second time Frank the Tank
has knocked the socks off this expansion thing. For the few of you who missed it, he outlines the entire thing here.
I know about your diabolical plan.
too bad you didn't just try to meet the 75 word minimum
by copying Frank The Tank over and over again ;-)
I HATE Fanshots. I’m about as rabid a BSD follower/commenter there is, and even I accidentally forget about/skip the Fanshots half the time (especially since everything is usually double posted into the FanPosts anyway).
I really really wish we could get a petition going to SBN to just merge the two sections.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 18, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
they would but
they can’t decide how much credit to give Rambler’s posts if fanshots count the same as fanshots
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face
by psupride on Feb 18, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 18, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
So...
This is exciting. I think it also goes with the simple idea that this whole expansion is a pissing contest between the B10 and the SEC. Texas to B10 would devastate the SEC’s image as the top dog conference.
"We hugged as grown men do. It was a great moment. Then, it was business as usual." -- LJ Sr.
Wow.
This would cement the Big 10 as the best football conference and likely challenge the preception that the Big East is SEC of basketball conferences.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 18, 2010 10:21 AM EST reply actions
Basically:
Those are pretty much the contenders, as there is nobody left. If you can get CU and Utah, you do it, and we’ll laugh all the way to the bank. But if Colorado decides it doesn’t want to play, the whole thing becomes fraught with risk.
I know about your diabolical plan.
Amazing that "Dazed and Confused"
Colorado is the linchpin to shaking up the college sports world. Their decision has huge downstream consequences and decisions for 4 or more conferences.
One man doing the work of 100's for the good of 1000's
Arguing over Colorado
It’s kind of funny to watch how Colorado has people shaking in their boots. Aren’t they just the Purdue of the Big XII?
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
I'm getting a kick out of it.
The fun part about all of this, for me anyway, is the Big XII getting exposed as a conference with no loyalty or stability. That’s nothing we’ve ever really thought about before, and you could argue a lot of it is Texas’ fault for taking so much of the pie and created a lot of grumpy presidents who think it’s unfair.
I know about your diabolical plan.
How panicked do you think the Big XII comissioner is?
I mean not only is it looking like he’s going to essentially lose his conference, but basically his job as well.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 18, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Right.
Even if none of this happens, is still raises serious stability concerns for everyone involved, and that’s only going to lead to less stability.
I know about your diabolical plan.
Game Theory
The conferences are playing a social game to create a reality out of a perception: if all the admins in the B12 hear all these rumors, they may end up exploring their options as a backup plan if the conference does break apart. Except the whole ‘exploring their options as a backup plan’ is actually what is going to break up the B12. By simply spreading these rumors and ideas, you’re actively making them come true because the admins are going to get trigger happy if they think Texas may leave, or Colorado may leave.
It’s like game theory, you’re playing with what people know and how they’ll react to that knowledge given certain payoffs.
"We hugged as grown men do. It was a great moment. Then, it was business as usual." -- LJ Sr.
Big XII Commish
I kind of get the impression his arms and legs have strings on them, and if you follow the strings back you run into the hand of the Texas AD.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
It doesn't matter how logical Frank makes Texas in the Big Ten sound
It’s still crazy.
as crazy as BC in the ACC?
because, you know, that did happen.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 18, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
No, it's crazier
As originally proposed, ‘Cuse was going to the ACC with BC, so there were two northeastern schools. And Boston to College Park (BC’s shortest ACC road trip) is a lot closer than Ames to Austin (Texas’ shortest Big Ten road trip).
Heck
Hey, I’ve lived in California for years and despite living the first 12 years of my life in Ohio, I’m an Orange fan by virtue of going to high school in Syracuse; you can’t expect me to remember which city is Iowa and which one is Iowa State (doesn’t change the numbers significantly). Austin is a longer road trip than all but three of BC’s ACC road trips (Atlanta, Tallahassee, and Miami). Every Big Ten road trip for Texas is about the equivalent of Boston to Tallahassee, except for Penn State, which is longer than Boston to Miami.
Why can't we expect that?
There are only six BCS conferences and I know which town every team plays in and I’m not unusual among college football fans in that regard.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
You must have
a real minimalist style of comedy because only your rationale is laughable in my estimation. Anyone else here locate the humor bursting from drothgery’s posts?
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm...
If you don’t think there’s at least a little bit of irony in a Californian getting cities in flyover country mixed up, I don’t know what to tell you.
If I had lived the first twelve years of my life
in Ohio, I would just admit that I made a mistake and stop trying to cover it with the “oh-so-subtle” irony of a Californian. Ask Rambler, rarely are my posts anything but ironic/ridiculous, except for when I’m pointing out an inaccuracy.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Whoa..this got out of hand.
I was just nitpicking in jest.
I never expected it to take this kind of turn. Sorry drothgery, didnt know Kyle would make this a big deal.
You lose tons of credibility on this
if you’re A)locating the University of Iowa in Ames and B)still relying on the “road trip” argument to blow the idea up. The second point has been roundly rejected by a number of posts. Check out Frank the Tank’s latest for a succinct rundown of why travel is a lame a reason for Texas’ not moving.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
It's not travel costs that are the issue
Not for Texas, anyway. It’s travel time that’s the issue. No amount of money makes airplanes or buses go any faster.
Dude
I’ve been to Texas more times than I care to admit. It’s an EASY trip from all over the conference. Really the only long trip time-wise is Philadelphia (and that’s still not all that long). Plus, you’re not accounting for two things.
1.Texas is likely to leave the Big XII one way or another. If travel time is the issue, their only other serious suitor, the Pac 10, is at a tremendous disadvantage compared to the Big Ten.
2.If you read the whole FtT post, you would see that Texas athletic teams would not even be making trips around the conference as much as you seem to think.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
"it's travel _time_ that's the issue"
but is it really?
Say it even adds 2 hours to the flight time on average, which I think is an overestimation, but let’s just do it anyway.
So now you have say 30 min to an hour to get to the airport, then you sit at the airport for an hour, then flight time, then gather belongings at the airport and get transportation out (say ~30 min), and then 30 min to an hour to get to your final destination.
So say you are taking a flight time of 3 hours and making it a flight time of 5 hours. Your total trip is now up to ~8-9 hours from ~6-7 hours. THAT is the biggest reason keeping Texas from joining the Big 10?
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 19, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Especially silly
since places like Lubbock, Manhattan (KS), Lincoln or Columbia are tough to get to. Sure, the team can charter small planes into small airports, but for fans (and I’m assuming this is really what all the whining is about since it clearly does not greatly impact the athletic department’s bottom line) it means multiple transfers and rental cars. The Big Ten means Chicago, Minneapolis, Columbus, Detroit (U of M) and Indianapolis. State College and Iowa City are the only two “tough” trips.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
that's exactly everyone's issue
thinking of travel in terms of fans. Heck, in my above outlined scenario the teams actually bypass most of the airport hassle, and have their buses go through back entrances, through different security points, and right up to the plane.
For fans, travel will be a pain, but it isn’t like the people that go to away games are rational anyway. I drive over 7 hours just to go to Penn State home games (granted I only usually make 2 a year anyway), and usually 5-8 hours to go to the different away games, and I still make it to about 5 or 6 games a year. Sure, the more casual fan will balk at the travel time to Texas, but the casual fan probably balks at the travel to pretty much any away game more than an hour or 2 away (which is usually all but maybe one close rival).
Also, how many fans are there usually at away games? 5,000, maybe 10,000 at best (for those close, rival games). The bulk of people that go to any football game are from the home crowd anyway, where travel concerns aren’t going to change one bit.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 19, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
Plus
it’s not accounting for the alumni diaspora. Iowa is such an attractive bowl team in Texas and Arizona because they have so many fans there already. Now take Texas, a much larger university, and you have fans already waiting in many of these destinations. I live in Chicago and can name five UT bars off the top of my head. Texas would simply be giving the opportunity to see their teams to a different group of fans.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
In
a fully serious and maybe half-assed question to some of you….why is there no interest in a team(s) in the East, e.g. closer to PSU? For chissakes, there is babble for West Coast teams to join, granted they are closer to the mid-west original conference, but for tO$U (8-9 hrs away from State College) are WE the poor cousin of the league…granted PSU has national recognition, but how about some rivalries closer by, I don’t even care if it is sPITT.
Why is there no interest?
First, I wouldn’t say there’s no interest, but Syracuse and Pitt sure as hell aren’t Texas. Even Rutgers would be a pretty serious stretch that assumes they’ll get decent.
Second, I don’t consider those teams to be rivals. They sucked and we kicked their ass.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 18, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Rivals.
Excluding Pitt, because we hated each other. And maybe Syracuse, but that series especially is really dated.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 18, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, Lenny Moore VS Jim Brown and all that is awesome
But it was also damn near 60 years ago.
Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.
Its bee said before and will be said again.
While some eastern teams offer some merits to the big ten, none of them are the complete package. We are the pre-eminent eastern school. There are no ND’s or Texas’s to be had in the east, and that is what the big ten is looking for.
Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.
pretty much what Rambler and Roland said
it isn’t that there’s necessarily anything wrong with certain Big East schools from an athletic standpoint, but they would all come in as also-rans and essentially be more schools like Illinois and Purdue for the rest of the Big 10 to beat up on.
Then financially they mostly just would break even (unless we can guarantee the NYC market for the BTN, unfortunately, the NYC market isn’t big on college football).
And finally, you then compare them to the other fish in the pond such as Notre Dame and Texas (and seriously, I’ve always been a “if we can get Notre Dame, let’s do it” guy, but all this talk about Texas makes me not even really care about the Irish, and this would just be a slap in the face to them. Even better were to be if we got Texas, TAMU, and said to Notre Dame, “this is your last chance to join the Big 10. Take it or leave it. We were willing to make some concessions to you before, but now you’re lucky to even get an equal share of the pie”
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 18, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, but NYC is big on college basketball
And that’s why SU would get the BTN on in NYC.
perhaps true
but is college basketball as big in NYC as college football is elsewhere (honest question). As in, will the network be as valuable in NYC based on basketball, or will they have to settle on a reduced cost?
Also, would Syracuse in the Big Ten basketball be as popular in NYC as Syracuse in the Big East (ie there are a lot of local/regional schools in the Big East in the NYC market, which makes a lot of people in NYC care, but would enough people care about Syracuse if they’re playing Midwest teams to really carry the market)
I’m not saying it won’t, but the value could be a bit lower than currently expected.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 19, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Relative to the population?
No. But it does have a huge number of fans (one out of ten people [a low estimation] in a city of nearly 10M is still a lot). The problem is, are they all fans of the same team? The answer, clearly, is no. Syracuse is a huge draw, but so is UConn and most other loyalties are split the way one might expect in a regional/national hub like NYC. The only time I can really remember that town as a whole getting behind one team is when Lou Carnasecca had St. John’s going (Chris Mullen AND BIll Wennington = white lightening) in the 80’s.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
that's essentially what I was asking
is the number of syracuse basketball fans in NYC enough to carry the BTN? Probably moreso than Syracuse or Rutgers football, but is it enough?
Again, very well may be, but something to think about, especially when compared to even something like Missouri football.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 19, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
The other problem is this,
Chicago is the biggest alumni hub for the Big Ten. Only Minnesota and Penn State have small-ish representation in this market, and therefore, a city that doesn’t support “its team” (although Northwestern is to Chicago what Vanderbilt is to Nashville or Rice is to Houston) is actually a great Big Ten town. NYC has a huge alumni base for both Penn State and Michigan. Unfortunately, if you’re using the basketball angle, you have two football schools to offer. I can’t see NYC being the draw many have projected.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
He makes an interesting point
about thinking like a university president and not a fan. That said, I still find it impossible to believe that Texas would join for cultural reasons. Texas used to be an independent country. Will their big-time donors, board of trustees, and other high-level peeps really make a vote to join a Northern conference that’s dominated by Ohio St. and Michigan?
The Big 10 itself has stated that an addition will make geographic sense, and IMO just getting a 12th member to create a conference title game is sufficient.
Another thing, if CU bolts, can they simply be replaced int the Big XII by TCU or Boise St.?
There are a LOT of impossible things
that can become quite possible with the addition of upwards of $20 million a year.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 18, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe.
But if you’re a Texan and a Southerner, are you really going to do this? Think of how much difference there is between the politcians that come to Congress vs. those that come from Big 10 country. Bush vs. Obama being the main example.
I have a response to that:
I know about your diabolical plan.
by KevinHD on Feb 18, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Dude, UT is located in Austin.
Austin is the Berkeley of the southwest.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 18, 2010 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
Austinites are some of the coolest people I've ever met
Really nice. You could say that they are the real Happy Valley…
Before you cast rocks upon me, let me quote Jesus who said in Olde English: “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.
by Mr. Rosewater on Feb 18, 2010 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Austin
is the only good place in Texas.
It never gets to be easy
by chitownhawkeye on Feb 18, 2010 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
The salt lick
although close yo Austin, is not in Austin and is TEH AWESOME
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face
Yeah, excellent food there.
But bring cash. I made a fool out of myself with plastic money, which they don’t accept.
by gumbercules on Feb 19, 2010 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Ick!
Are you serious!?! How much time have you spent in those locations?
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
not much to be honest
But I like Galveston
by scotty2hotty89 on Feb 19, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Go back
(I can’t believe I’m actually telling someone to go to Texas on purpose) and spend some time in Austin. Sitting on the beach is nice until you realize there are so much better beaches in so many places. Austin is like Madison with more music, better food and better weather.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Mike agrees.
Douchea.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 19, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
But how would she know?
Unless….oh.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 19, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Using google maps, it seems that Austin, TX is not in a valley.
So your argument is invalid.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 18, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
I thought about it
And I didn’t like the conclusion I reached.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 18, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Having married a Texan
and been around that state a bit.I can tell you that the University of Texas crowd does not fit the culture of the state as neatly as many seem to think. It has been pointed out in other articles that A&M is that “cultural” oddity for the Big Ten if the league were forced to take them both.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Seriously.
What is Texas? A major research school located in a relatively liberal college town.
Um, that doesn’t sound like most Big Ten schools. Not at all.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 19, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know how they rank in terms of traditional studies like business, law, medicine, etc
but they’re film making community exceeds that of Hollywood. which I guess doesn’t say much these days.
by Mr. Rosewater on Feb 19, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
You misread my post.
I am arguing that Texas works for the Big Ten because it is a better cultural fit with that league than any other conference that state’s schools are currently affiliated with. Other posters and websites seem to think that UT fits into the “football is life” mentality of Texas in its entirety, but the fanbase I’ve most often heard them compared to is Michigan; blue-blooded and aloof. UT cares a ton about sports, but not more than their overall reputation.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't misread your post.
I was agreeing.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 19, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Then I misread
your perceived misreading of my missive, mistaking your admission as inadmissible…mission accomplished?
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
Another thing, if CU bolts, can they simply be replaced int the Big XII by TCU or Boise St.?
yeah, but they lose the entire Denver market and replace it with a non-existent one. Which only makes a potential BT offer that much better for Texas, because it makes the gap between the BT and the status quo that much bigger.
I know about your diabolical plan.
I'd guess yes
and part of it is pride. They’re getting little (comparatively) where they are. Offering them more money, better overall academics and potentially better research collaboration (and don’t sleep on that. Research money absolutely dwarfs sports), as well as the prestige of being able to try to beat up on UM, OSU, and PSU as opposed to just Oklahoma.
It won’t be easy or clean, but at the end of the day, it can make a lot of sense.
It never gets to be easy
by chitownhawkeye on Feb 18, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
I think the “culture” thing would be mitigated a lot if A&M comes along too. I mean, the reality is that Texas is as connected to most of the Big 12 as they would be to the Big Ten — distant “midwest” schools that they have little history with. And, honestly, as much as they have tradition with Texas Tech and Baylor, I don’t think their fans would miss those games — that’s basically like us waving goodbye to Rutgers and Maryland when we joined the Big Ten.
Bring along A&M, UT keeps playing Oklahoma in Dallas in the OOC schedule, and I think the culture issues would be just fine and the fans would be okay too.
What about Rice University?
They got the academics, the money, Houston is a big market…
Oh, but there is just one thing: they don’t have much of a football team. But this isn’t about football right? RIGHT!!!???
by Mr. Rosewater on Feb 18, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
Good point
if Rice “had” the Houston market. They don’t. Houston is A&M country with a huge Texas minority.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
I guess a university with 6,000 students
half of which are postgraduates, doesn’t lend itself to a big following. But a 3.6 billion dollar endowment…wow.
by Mr. Rosewater on Feb 19, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Rice is like Northwestern,
Boston College and Vanderbilt. Great schools with huge endowments but institutions that draw students from all over the country/world. After graduation most of them go off to far-flung cities doing exciting things that don’t include following the football programs of their alma maters.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Big 10 = Big 12 and Big XII = Big X
CU/Utah to the Pac-10 and Texas to the Big 10 would be phenomenal…but only if the the “Big” conferences names change to align with the number of teams in their league.
Thus, at the same point in time, the Big 10 is renamed “The Big 12” and the Big XII is renamed “The Big X”.
The 5 years worth of confusion this would create would be tremendous. Imagine all the half-assed sports fans bellied up at bars with comments like “boy they sure play slow in the Big 10”, “man, I just love them gun slinging QBs in the Big 12. They almost got as much speed in that Big 12 conference as the SEC”
Does that make the Big East
The Big 8? If the Mountain West loses its Utah members can it be renamed the SWC?
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Can we ask FCS league
the Missouri Valley, to change its name to this just for fun?
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Feb 19, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
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