Do You Know? They Don't Know.
by Kevin HD on Feb 23, 2010 11:05 PM EST
in Big Ten Conference
59 comments
A press conference held today by the Big Heads at Michigan has led to a series of reactions to the possible NCAA punishment that looms after they may or may not have committed a couple of "major infractions."
Mgo was demanding an answer to the age-old question "where's the beef?" MnB thinks minor punishment but admits "we're just guessing." Mgo drops the full report later and reports "It sounds a lot worse in this format than it did coming from Brandon," which of course it sounds worse than the way your AD sugar-coated it.
DocSat jumped in right away, calling the issues "barely spilt milk," and adds this wide-sweeping conclusion:
Know also that every program in the country -- and I'm pretty confident when I say every program -- would run afoul of at least one of those infractions (or similar ones; it's a big manual) on a somewhat regular basis...
Now, if we peel back the ramped qualifications in there, is Hinton right? I don't know. He probably doesn't know. Isn't the whole point of this story that no one has any idea (1) what the rules are, and (2) how many people are following them?
He cites four specific charges, as reported here, and as they relate to Penn State, a proud member of "every program in the country"...well to take my best guess, in the order they appear, (1) I have no idea what a "Quality control staffer" is and if Paterno deputizes them to monitor football during the offseason, so uh, maybe? (2) That no, Paterno does not likely go over practice time and was quoted last year as saying he doesn't even max it out, citing that whole student-athlete thing...but does that mean they've never gone a minute over? (3) Penn State assistants probably have not recently provided "false and misleading" information to the NCAA, and that (4) Paterno does in fact promote an atmosphere of compliance, as evidenced by his non-existent rap sheet.
Even for a school I blog about, I have no reason to think they are or are not guilty of the four items listed as significant. It not worth anyone's time guess based on information I don't have.
As I noted above, Hinton qualifies his "everyone does what Michigan is doing" with the "or similar [infractions]," which opens up a kind of speculation even people inside the program probably can't comment on, and besides gets back to my first two points: We don't have any idea what's going on anywhere, I think that's the news.
Neither Yahoo blogger nor beat reporter and maybe not even football coach really are certain of anything; the rules are complex, all the source material is totally unattainable for most of us and we don't have an enforcement agency with the power to comfortably investigate.
Of course, like critics of the tax code often say, it's probably the complexity of the rules that make enforcement impossible and hopelessly selective.
So rather than declare damnation on 120 college football coaches, let's start with the premise that we don't know anything about any of them, rather than the opposite of that.
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I'm certainly going to go back and read the entire thing, being a legal nerd.
But the title reminded me of college – you cannot believe how much fun it is, and how many baffled looks you get, to walk up to people and ask them “If you know that you don’t know, do you know?” God I miss Penn State.
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
Well
When they asked Paterno about this last season, his response was something to the effect of “it doesn’t effect us, because we’re never close to the limit”.
Michigan has lost their way. It’s as simple as that.
Penn State had four losing seasons in five years. We kept our dignity.
Michigan had a losing streak to Ohio State, while having 10 win/BCS seasons, then they sold their soul to Rich Rodriguez. For them, the losing came after the sell out. Yet, they continue to defend the sell out. They. Are. Lost. They might as well be Anakin Skywalker at this point.
That’s how lost they are.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
Having their cake and eating it too
On one hand, Michigan likes to say “We’re Michigan. We represent the best of college football. We hold ourselves to a higher standard.”
But then on the other hand, every time something like NCAA violations or questionable recruiting tactics come up, well, then “Everyone does it. We’re just doing what everyone else does.”
You can’t have it both ways, guys.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
Those guys really decided to take advantage of us when we were down. They couldn’t beat their rival, so they started talking about their winning streak against us. They, as a fan-base, really decided to rub it in our face to make themselves feel better about their Ohio State trouble.
Michigan, in a moment of weakness, went after Penn State.
I’ll return the favor. Except in place of lost football games, I’ll question their integrity. Which, given their actions over the past two seasons in totally legit.
The second they change the lyrics of their fight song from "the leaders and the best", to "everybody does it", I’ll stop.
Until then, well, their helmets are stolen and their "National Tiles" are less legit than Pitt’s. And that’s a fact.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
Again, I'm not going to argue against this strategy.
I’ll only caution that PSU has had their share of “character issues” and “integrity problems.” I’ll be the first to back you up in a verbal altercation with a Michigan guy over the “right way to do things” especially given our two program’s current head coaches. Just don’t go overboard and become Michigan two years ago.
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
We've had player issues.
They have institutional issues.
The difference is Paterno is still our coach, and Carr isn’t theirs. Kids are kids, and I challange you to find one negative word I’ve written about one of their kids.
I’ve lambasted their coach, and their fans for actions they’ve taken. But I’m pretty sure I’ve never taken a crack at one of their players.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
Oh, I completely see your point.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with your premise. However, as I’m sure you know, Joe CollegeFootballFan is not logical. So when you start saying how the Athletic Dept. at Michigan has lost some control and their snakeoil salesman is a dbag, be prepared for apartment fight and pot arrest rebuttals.
Also, these UM problems are recent. RRod has been there two years. I am in NO way justifying his actually having the job, or having been given the job in the first place. But give it a minute. If he fails as I suspect (he’s recruited two classes, and last I heard, you could count the number of OL recruits on one hand), let him fail.
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
wait...I thought the lyrics were "something something Rambler of the west"
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 24, 2010 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
May as well be.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 24, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
$0.02
Being close to the flames, I can tell you the past two years has physically hurt these people. When I first met my fiance, I dreaded going to Michigan because I knew I was going to get some serious s*** because of their dominance. I was in Michigan Stadium for that epic 14-9 (or whatever it was) loss. Luckily, I was also in Beaver Stadium the next year for the start of our streak. However, since then, my fiance and her friends, some of whom I’d describe as diehard, have been physically pained. Having conversations with them is difficult, and tempers are shorter than when I first met them. I still give them their equal share of s***, but you can see on their faces they are not used to this. A 12 year losing streak to OSU was bearable because they were winning all the other games. Now, its a 14 year losing streak to OSU, 2 years to PSU, Appalachain State, Oregon, etc. etc.
I feel bad in that I-have-to-feel-bad-because-I-kinda-like-sex way, but other than that, this is college football. It has ebbs and flows. Mike’s two statements above are spot on, but to be honest, they are kind of spot on for a lot of teams. I can’t point to specific examples, but I guarantee there were times in my fandom when PSU did something stupid (see Baker, Chris; Bell, Chris; apartment fights; etc.) when I said “Whatever, everyone does that” and then other times (see Grand Experiment, graduation rates) where I said PSU is a cut above. Right now Michigan is in the ebb. The second you start to think they won’t flow again, you’ve dangerously underestimated a historically powerful team. This isn’t Notre Dame; Michigan will be relevant again.
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
by PSUJunny05 on Feb 23, 2010 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Michigan will be relevant again.
Sez who? Michigan is a state with a declining population base and lousy high school football. For the better part of two generations they have depended on recruiting in Ohio to compete. Bo, replaced Woody Hayes at Miami Univeristy, then took the Michigan job. Something tells me that Rich Rodriguez’s merc Tulane/Clemson/WVU resume may not be resonating with the kids that Tressel is recruiting. Or Brian Kelly for that matter. Without Ohio, Michigan isn’t even Iowa.
Things change. Kids play for coaches, not endowments. So, I guess my point is, we’ll see.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
Woah. Easy big fella.
Pennsylvania and Michigan have had similar population shifts in the past 10 years. PA has steadily risen (thanks entirely to Philadelphia; and if you question this, look at Pittsburgh area data), but Michigan has been on a very slight downtick recently. And that is understandable.
However, to say the Michigan “brand” isn’t marketable to recruits is way off base. Kids play for coaches, to be sure, but Lane Kiffin gets kids to play for him, so even the worst Americans can get talent. And Michigan has been doing what Penn State has been trying, recruiting in the south and west (scoff all you want, but there is actually some talent in these areas). Granted, they aren’t keeping some high profile kids in state, but they are by no means irrelevant.
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
Right, except...
Detroit makes basketball players that go to Michigan State.
Pittsburgh makes football players that go, in order, to Penn State, Pitt, Ohio State….
The University of Michigan plays football, the state of Michigan doesn’t. That ain’t Pennsylvania’s problem.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
I guess my major point here is that the UM brand is strong.
Very strong. They’ve just had, as you point out, some administrative problems.
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
i agree the BOg ten needs Michigan to be relevant
The conference does well with a storng PSU OSU and MIchigan. These are the three big daddys of fan base and historic prominence,.
Never insult seven men when all you have is a six shooter --COL Sherman T Potter
by psu in the w-b on Feb 24, 2010 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
That, and we don't make cars in Michigan anymore.
To the extent that’s not a fact, it’s a matter of time. Here in Pittsburgh we got the point that we don’t make steel anymore like 25 years ago, and the recovery has been that slow. Michigan’s not there yet.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
Detroit = Pittsburgh 20 years ago (just with more people)
Pittsburgh found a way to adapt, eventually. Education, healthcare, etc. (and two of the largest 20 law firms in the US). However, there is nothing to suggest Detroit, a much larger city, won’t find new ways to adapt. Hell, they’ve got a fiesty Piston leading the way.
And we still make cars in Detroit. Actually Dearborn. I’ll be getting married on the grounds of the Ford testing site, so I can bring you back some samples if you like.
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
My point was pretty close to what you just said.
it twenty years to adapt. Difference being Pittsburgh started adapting in 1979, and Detroit hasn’t yet. There is still a steel plant in Pittsburgh too. One.
But as it relates to Michigan football, their best players have always come from Ohio. That’s not new. They sucked before they hired Bo, who was from Ohio, look it up. They hired a merc, and all the sudden all the “brand” in the world can’t out recruit Ohio State.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
Well Detroit has many more people than Pittsburgh
So adaptation shouldn’t be hard, especially since they finally got rid of that dbag mayor (don’t even get me started on that one).
I trust your Bo knowledge, but the UM name is strong, and will be during and after RichRod. Look at their three high profile QB recruits, then look at their home states.
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
The whole state of Michigan...
is a mess. I’m not going to get into the politics, but complete failure at the state and local level. I’m interested to see how the economic and governmental woes of the state impact scUM and MSU.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
All normal people love meat. If I went to a barbeque and there was no meat, I would say 'Yo Goober! Where's the meat?' - HJS
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 24, 2010 7:23 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, what you said.
I could talk for a day about that state, but this isn’t the right place for it.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 24, 2010 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
I completely agree.
Every time I go back there, its something new. Following all of the Kwame stuff makes me full like a TMZ-crazed socialite, but this stuff is riveting because its real (as opposed to whatever the Kardashians are doing, or whatever is going on at Wisteria Lane).
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
Kwame Kilpatrick saga
That was just a real unneeded mess. Then you have Monica Conyers…. Hot Ghetto Mess.
"Want a donut go to dunkin donuts, want a linebacker go to Penn State."
- Cris Carter, NFL Draft, 4/25/09
twitter: @princessblueezy
Every time I go back there
Is is the same whether you fly or drive, or do you never drive there?
"We just forgot our pants. Nothing against the team or anything like that." -- take a guess
Population shifts/economy has nothing to do with it.
If it were, UNLV and North Texas would be football powerhouses.
Disagree/agree
Population shifts help, but are not the be all end all. I’m guessing UNLV and North Texas aren’t powerhouses because they lack the resources to make them football powerhouses (like a 100K stadium, Hall of Fame coaches, history out the butt).
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
http://www.nunesmagician.com/2007/07/north-texas-quandary.html
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 24, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
FWIW
The University of Pittsburgh’s endowment is larger than Penn State’s. Why? Steel money.
That money is long gone, and so is Pitt’s football team. And Pitt is located in the god damn walled city of Jeruslaem of High School football. Michigan has to recruit against Ohio State for recruits. Penn State recruits against Pitt, Rutgers and Maryland. It’s a huge difference.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
I feel this is going to be a lengthy battle between us, and I welcome the match.
I find three things wrong with this post:
1) You contradict yourself here
The University of Pittsburgh’s endowment is larger than Penn State’s. Why? Steel money.and here
That money is long gone, because their endowment can’t be bigger if the money is gone.
2) To the extent that you were discussing steel money (which could explain point 1), that money doesn’t/didn’t go entirely to Pitt. My parents gave every single year of their professional employment to US Steel, and the day they gave $1 to Pitt would be the day pigs fly.
3) Pitt doesn’t have that wall (see here and here), and Penn State recruits elsewhere (less than 50% of the 2010 recruits were inside PA).
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
I'm going to bed soon either way, but...
1] People underestimate the amount of old money in Pittsburgh. Pitt’s endowment is larger than Penn State’s.
2] I may have misspoke. The money isn’t long gone, it’s in a bank account. The people that donated it are.
3] I suspect that your parents aren’t Carnegies, Mellons, Scaifes, Pitcairns, Fultons or Fricks. To the extent they are, I apologize, and can I borrow 50 grand.
4] Pitt’s living in the past. Michigan never had a past. From a recruiting prospective Pittsburgh ain’t what it used to be. At it’s best, Michigan was never what Pittsburgh is today. Also, re-read what I wrote, and recompute for Pennsylvania, Maryland and New Jersey. I bet you we get north of 75% that way.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
I feel bad in that I-have-to-feel-bad-because-I-kinda-like-sex way, but other than that, this is college football.
Rec’d just for that.
Two words:
Clayton Lonetree.
"...there'll be some woman, maybe 45 or 50, she'll come up and give me a hug, and I'll give my wife a wink: See? I'm not that old." - Joe Paterno
by ReadingRambler on Feb 24, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
i concur
terrific speach. speaches of speaches. totally peaches those speaches.
by Mr. Rosewater on Feb 24, 2010 1:18 AM EST up reply actions
Really?
He said “barely spilt [sic] milk” and I’m the first one to comment on the 10/10 usage of the word “barely?”
Come on guys, that was an easy one.
Not only that,
but no one has made a “I mean everyone kills people, murders people, steals from you, steals from me, whatever” joke. Come on people, we are not even a full two months into the off season and we are already out of game shape.
by VVeRPennState on Feb 24, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Its tough staying sharp when all you've got is curling on tv.
And Kobe doing work. Cause the Black Mamba is nasty.
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
seriously
Is there a time of day during this 2 week span when curling hasn’t been on TV? I swear that sport has gotten more coverage over a 2 week time period than any other sport ever. It has to beat out March Madness and the World Cup, and even if it doesn’t, the fact that it even comes close is ridiculous. I mean this is *curling we are talking about. (speaking of which, why is it on so much…couldn’t they use that channel to show more interesting Olympic sports? I feel somewhat ashamed that I now understand about 90% of what is going on in curling now.)
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 24, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
it's the pants
"There are only three certainties in college football: all players will eventually leave, the ACC will be bad, and Joe Paterno ", Clay Travis, CNNsi Fanhouse
Yeah that bothers me
The whole “everyone does it” thing. Ohio State fans say the same thing. Texas fans will make excuses for piss poor graduation rates. USC fans will say there was nothing Pete Carrol could have done/known about the Reggie Bush apartment thing. Yeah, everyone probably does bend (but don’t suck) the rules, Penn State being no exception. But there are different levels of shadiness. It’s more childish than anything else. I’m a teacher and the first response I get from kids is always “well they were doing it too”. So what? You shouldn’t have done it, and you got caught.
That was kind of my point.
I’d be willing to bet the level of shadiness committed by any institution is directly correlated with the man running the ship. You want the occasional apartment fight and pot bust, Joe’s your guy. You want to recruit thrice-felony-arrested safeties and NCAA rules hearings? Talk to Rich.
"Have I ever told the story of when I met Miley Cyrus?"
please please please
can someone photoshop Joe smoking the reefer while fighting (old timey boxing style…you know, like the ND leprechaun logo) in an apartment.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 24, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
Meh
These actually all sound relatively minor, compared to some of the things that go on. The biggest one to me sounds like the summer workouts conducted by staff. That’s a pretty clear restriction. The other bullet points can be fudged a little. I’d probably peg all of this on Rodriguez and his inability to realize he isn’t in the Big East anymore, where no one cares to examine how you run your program because you’re irrelevant. He painted a big fat target on himself when he ditched out to go to Michigan and it’s catching up to him.
Not to defend Michigan because I do truly hate the program, but why is it that the NCAA can do an investigation on these pretty weak charges and more or less wrap it up in a month, while USC has been paying kids to play for them and still hasn’t gotten smacked? It’s a joke, and I really don’t get it. If we were talking about a Arkansas State or other barely-recognized program, I could see it. But Michigan has just as much money, tradition, and name recognition as a USC. They just don’t have the wins over the previous decade. So why is the NCAA so quick to pounce? All I can figure is that it’s because of Rodriguez.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
It's definitely because of DickRod
Carroll held himself out as a “good guy” – he had a charity and all that, and didn’t (until the shit hit the fan) leave his school for “greener” pastures. DickRod left his school in ignominy. He has done nothing good for society (even if, as Carroll did it, it was done for himself), but he HAS provided the world with a rich Pacman Jones running around violating rules/laws/ethical norms/etc.
The public image of the scumbag at the heart of the controversy is EXACTLY why this is going on. The other potential influence is ESPN – they’re in the midst of a “let’s screw the Big Ten for making a competitor network” and I GUARANTEE they had some influence on pushing UM’s issue through so quickly. They did it with Penn State, they’ll do it with any other Big Ten team they can pin a questionable practice on.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
I dont know if I buy the ESPN vs. Big Ten in this situation
If anything, all of the publicity and turning of soil creates more incentive to be interested in Big Ten football – which ESPN relies upon for big ratings. It creates a storyline, which is exactly what the ESPiN machine is all about. This storyline has the potential to bump up ratings and grab those viewers that may say – “Hey Michigan (or previously PSU) is on TV, I want to watch that trainwreck” or “I want to see if their players can overcome this adversity.” I think that as long as ESPN is allowed to broadcast the premiere Big Ten matchups, their motivation for blowing up these issues will not come from apprehension towards the BTN. The motivation comes from ratings. Michigan still has a lot of fans in many parts of the country
Point taken.
But we agree that ESPN had some part in accelerating Michigan’s thing through the NCAA, right?
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
Thanks for giving me something to do...
Kevin this post is saving me from gouging my eyes out at my cloud-computing conference with the most dry boring presentation ever.
Predicting Penn State's Offensive Scripts since 2005!
by Kunza on Feb 24, 2010 11:47 AM EST via mobile reply actions
ooh, can you compute one that looks like an elephant?
how about an ice cream cone?
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 24, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
You mean like
“The Spindustry”?
I hate the fact that I know that Kim Kardashian is producing this show.
A couple of points
1. The complaints about Michigan’s violations came from the players not some nosy reporter outside the program. The players were complaining they didn’t have enough time for school work. Read the original Detroit Free Press article.
2. Michigan has cooperated in the investigation. This answers the questions of why it only took a few months. To the best of my knowledge, USC has been stonewalling its investigation from the get go.
3. Everybody does it. This is like saying everybody speeds. Most people obey the speed limit but there are occasions, to pass or really late for an appointment, one occasionally exceeds the speed limit. Then there are those that are perpetually in the left lane doing 10 or more over the limit. Michigan is accused of the later. Joe said they usually only practice 17 to 18 hours a week but there have been times when they may have gone 1/2 hour to and hour over in a particular week. So yes – everyone occasionally does it. It’s just not done on a consistent and regular basis as reported in the Michigan case.
so you are saying Joe is the little old guy going 5 under the speed limit?
and as one who typically goes 10 over on major highways and 5 over on regular main roads, I take offense to the Michigan comparison.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 25, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Who really cares?
My schadenfreude is all used up with the Maize and Blue. I wish them well in 11 out of 12 games next year. Compared to O$U, they’re saints.
If the NCAA isn’t going to do anything about this, as would appear to be the case, this is just a PR black eye. Michigan will recover, because there’s not much here to recover from.
Whether or not they ever recover from the failed experiment that is Rich Rodriguez remains to be seen.
Also, like it or not, as long as we’re in the Big 10, we need Michigan to be relevant.
Some people are born mediocre, some achieve mediocrity, and some people have mediocrity thrust upon them. - Joseph Heller
all used up? is that even possible
I’m pretty sure I bought the unlimited, lifetime supply of schadenfreude for Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Bobby Bowden, and Pitt the minute the ink touched the paper on my first tuition check to Penn State.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 25, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
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