Why you can't spell Nittany without NIT
Curley's statement about another year of Ed made me comment about the fact that I think the problems with Penn State basketball run a lot deeper than the coach. I'm going to try to dissect those problems in this post, and then perhaps posit some ways the University might address them in a subsequent post.
I've been thinking about this for a long time. At the very least, since the spring of my senior year, 2002, when I was lucky enough to participate in a focus group of students that the athletic department assembled to help them better understand how to improve the hoops program. I apologize for failing be part of a focus group, that obviously, FAILED.
Why does Penn State basketball consistently suck?
Because we don't have particularly good players. And even the good ones are usually preternaturally ugly.
Why don't we get better players?
This is the heart of the matter. And I'm going to say that there are three primary reasons, which are related, but nevertheless distinct.
First, Penn State doesn't care. Now, I care, and I know that Fugi, RUTS, and Mike care, and a number of other people who spend time on BSD care, but the Penn State community, at large, doesn't really care about basketball that much. We have little to no basketball tradition. You could start on the basketball team and you'd be less of a big deal to fellow students and fans than the third string qb. Yes, McGloin is the sh$t...but if he's a bigger deal than the starting number four its going to be hard to bring in recruits.
Second, central Pennsylvania isn't exactly a great place to come and spend your time playing hoops. A lot of central Pennsylvanians spend their winter sports' hours on wresting, not hoops. Moreover, let's be frank: most good basketball players are black, and central Pennsylvania isn't exactly a hotbed of racial diversity. Less than ten years ago, the head of the black student caucus at Penn State had so many regular death threats that she got 24-hour FBI surveillance. There are more chapters of the KKK in Pennsylvania than any other state, and those chapters are concentrated in the center of the state. On top of this is the fact that there just aren't a lot of people around State College, and so it would take something really special to manage to get 15,000 people to care enough to leave their warm houses to drive through snow and ice on a weekday evening to go to a basketball game.
Third, we have strong competition for recruits. Let's be clear: western PA basketball sucks. I played four years of WPIAL basketball, I won a AAAA WPIAL championship, I know: the WPIAL sucks. Danny Fortson is the exception, not the rule. There's some crazy stat that there's been a WPIAL alum in every super bowl or something like that. On the other hand, I'm not sure there's ever been a WPIAL player in the NBA finals. Maybe Armand Gillian made it, but I'm not sure and am too lazy to look it up.
There is, of course, a ton of talent in the eastern part of the state and all along the east coast within driving distance of state college. But, if you're a kid and you're deciding between PSU and St. Joe's (because let's be real, no kid is deciding between PSU and Nova or Temple or St. John's...), where would you go? Would you want to live in philly and be the big man on campus and play at a school where the students and alumni eat, drink, and sleep hoops, or would you want to come to Penn State, live in the middle of nowhere and play second fiddle to the football team and compete for attention with the women's volleyball team? Frankly, I'm going to St. Joe's unless you can make a really good push otherwise. To be honest, I find it hard, right now, to make a really compelling case for a kid to come to Penn State instead of St. Joe's.
Let's see: you'll be on TV more often b/c of the BTN and ESPN contract. You'll get to play better competition in the Big Ten. But that's balanced by playing for people that care more, and having a chance to be part of a tradition and a team that, quite frankly, has a much better chance of playing in March than the nittany lions.
Indiana and Kansas are good at basketball. Why aren't we?
This is a ridiculous question and asking it shows that you don't know anything about basketball. Just like central and western PA are all about football, some parts of the country are all about basketball. The UNC branch campuses are better at hoops than Penn State b/c everyone in North Carolina is mad about hoops. Same with Indiana. The guy who invented basketball--James Naismith--coached at Kansas.
Fine. What about Ohio State?
This is a much better analogy. I'm going to say that there's two reasons why OSU is better, but I'd be interested to hear what others think. 1. Columbus ain't State College. TP said it all: we're "too country." 2. Ohio State cares more. They defintely invest more in the team, but I'd also say that the "university community" cares more about hoops. They don't have the volleyball and fencing traditions that we have to hang their hats on, so they turn to hoops.
You want to fix everything? Just fire Ed Dechellis and pay a bunch of money for a top-notch up and coming coach.
It's not at all clear that the athletic department has any interest in spending money on a basketball coach. Given the fact that, as I posit above, the university community doesn't really care about hoops, they probably shouldn't.
You're right, I don't care. I would care if the team was good though. So why doesn't Curley spend money to make the team good so that I'll then care?
This is a terrible argument, yet we hear it a lot. This is like going to your parents and saying: I'm sorry I wrecked my crappy car. But I wrecked it because I never really cared about it because it was so crappy. If you want me to take care of my car, you need to buy me a nice one. No parent in their right mind would ever buy their kid a good car following this argument, and Curley shouldn't spend money that the men's volleyball team could use to go show the Californians how high we can jump in Central PA on the assumption that people would care if the team was better.
Can't you just post one more picture of Calvin Booth so that I have something to laugh at?
Yes I can.
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2 snarky comments before I actually read through the whole thing
1) basic rules of spelling and the alphabet. If you didn’t have N, I, or T, then we would be the AY LOS, and that’s a pretty crappy team name. Or if you just use one occurrence of each letter, then we’d be the TANY LIONS. Not terrible, but makes me think we’d fake bake too much.
2) you actually apparently succeeded quite well at being part of a focus group that failed (or perhaps you were part of a focus group that succeeded, since it possibly pointed out that the general student body doesn’t care enough about the hoops program to warrant spending any additional $). Whether the focus group failed or not, though, you succeeded at being a part of that group. You just failed at making enough of a difference for the hoops program to be improved, and for that you should hang your head low in shame.
particularly b/c its not funny
nor does it really make sense.
but its central point—penn state belongs in the NIT—is more or less true. Hell, fugi’s saying that going to the NIT should be the goal for next year.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
it doesn't make sense?
I DARE you to spell Nittany without NIT. You also can’t spell Nittany without NCAA, though. At best you’d have Ittny, or perhaps just Itty. The Itty Lions? The Itty Lios?
by The JuggerNitt on Mar 16, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Moreover, let’s be frank: most good basketball players are black, and central Pennsylvania isn’t exactly a hotbed of racial diversity. Less than ten years ago, the head of the black student caucus at Penn State had so many regular death threats that she got 24-hour FBI surveillance. There are more chapters of the KKK in Pennsylvania than any other state, and those chapters are concentrated in the center of the state. On top of this is the fact that there just aren’t a lot of people around State College, and so it would take something really special to manage to get 15,000 people to care enough to leave their warm houses to drive through snow and ice on a weekday evening to go to a basketball game.
Could you link to anything about the KKK in Pennsylvania? I’m just curious (not saying there’s not any racism in Pennsyltucky, there certainly is at least some), because the only KKK thing I remember was some little group protesting in Gettysburg, who were counter-protested by a larger group. This was a few years ago. Anyway, I think basketball is an urban sport to begin with, it’s never been big in central PA (although there were guys like Billy Owens (Owings?) from Carlisle), and importantly, there’s no major basketball program in the middle of the state.
Fine. What about Ohio State?
Bob Knight loves to brag about talent in the state of Ohio and he’s right. Ohio has as much or more talent than Pennsylvania in football, and I think the same goes for Ohio. Cinci, Cleveland, etc. all produce tons of talent. Plus, Ohio State has a long tradition in basketball. They have recent Final Four appearances. They have legendary players like Havlicek and recent players like Oden. They even have a national championship. Add in tradition (which Penn State doesn’t have), backyard recruiting (which Penn State doesn’t have), and money (which Penn State has, but doesn’t. You know how it goes), and you’ve got a formula.
Great post, spak.
P.S.
REC HALL!
"Based on my estimates, it appears that Stanzi shall transcend the ages." - Cairo
same goes for Ohio basketball
"Based on my estimates, it appears that Stanzi shall transcend the ages." - Cairo
by ReadingRambler on Mar 16, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
well
according to this map, I’m wrong. Pennsylvania has a lot, but not an unreasonably high number, of KKK groups. We do have the third most “racist skinhead” groups of any state, though.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
It's not just "they even have a national championship",
it’s that they have a long and illustrious (although not as instantly identifiable) history in the sport. Yes, football is king at OSU but it is at Texas, too and yet there are plenty of Longhorns fans that care deeply about baseball. I don’t know that I’d say Ohio has more basketball talent than Pennsylvania, just that (with the exception of the Cincinnati area) the whole state identifies with Ohio State first and foremost for all sports. This is largely true for Pennsylvania in regards to PSU football, but the Philadelphia area (which contains the bulk of PA’s great hardwood talent) has its own distinct identity (and shitload of basketball schools) and is without a doubt entrenched in the Metro-East Coast basketball culture of Philly, NYC & DC. If you’re a great player from Philly, chances are you’re looking Big East.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Mar 21, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Heaven?
"Based on my estimates, it appears that Stanzi shall transcend the ages." - Cairo
by ReadingRambler on Mar 16, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Outstanding
God I love it when you guys are this self depricating. Makes you a great read!
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Mar 16, 2010 4:03 PM EDT reply actions
I was just reading around, and jesse. was writing about solutions to the problems you just wrote down. This was two years ago. *sigh*
http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2008/1/24/121742/727
Particularly agree with his second point.
"Based on my estimates, it appears that Stanzi shall transcend the ages." - Cairo
by ReadingRambler on Mar 17, 2010 11:38 AM EDT reply actions
good find.
if i get time, i’ll try to post some of my proposed solutions later today or tomorrow.
jesse. knows way more about the history of psu basketball than me and probably anyone else on here.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
My favorite jesse. story was when he said Joe Paterno somewhat rudely interrupted his Dad's conversation with Bruce Parkhill.
"Based on my estimates, it appears that Stanzi shall transcend the ages." - Cairo
by ReadingRambler on Mar 17, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Just as an after-thought...
The KKK is still big in Pa….there are still people in my age group and thank god most of them are dying, that puke at the thought of African-Americans playing any sport at PSU and how many fans of “color” do you see at games at PSU, students or otherwise? I go to games so I am aware of #‘s….football is easy to like, “they” wear helmets!!! In BB, you know who they are ! I used to think with younger generations that this crap would go away, but it seems to have reverted, much to my dismay….It’s so hard to get good BB players of color at PSU because there is no tradition for that group of kids, let alone kids to relate to on campus or in the stands…just my old opinion.
How many black kids are there at Penn State basketball games?
Um, I can’t answer this because I haven’t been to a game there, but I have a difficult time believing that racism from the student body itself is a problem. I have, however, been to Beaver Stadium, and have seen black people there, despite the white out thing. Good black basketball players? Talor Battle, Geary Claxton, Gyasi, Cornley, Frazier? Jesse Arnelle in the 1950s? And that’s not even to mention all of the celebrated black football players we have had. Avatar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Based on my estimates, it appears that Stanzi shall transcend the ages." - Cairo
by ReadingRambler on Mar 17, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
The people in Avatar were blue.
But its analogous.
Milk-a-what?
by Jeff Junstrom on Mar 17, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
My kingdom for an edit feature.
"Based on my estimates, it appears that Stanzi shall transcend the ages." - Cairo
by ReadingRambler on Mar 17, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I wanted one of those earlier.
Dear SBN,
People make errors in their comments. Let them fix that.
XOXO,
Everyone on SBN
Milk-a-what?
by Jeff Junstrom on Mar 17, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I like what they do at mgoblog
You can edit your comment until somebody responds to it. Then, it’s locked as part of the conversation. It leads to higher-quality threads.
by gumbercules on Mar 19, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
You read mgoblog?
Almanacs are less tedious.
"We just forgot our pants. Nothing against the team or anything like that." -- take a guess
I don't disconcur.
"BSD. LSD. Coincidence? Probably." - PurpleMonkeyDishwasher
by ReadingRambler on Mar 26, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
gumbercules seems like he's got the technical mind for it
For sifting through puffy-chest writing and post-modern hullabaloo.
Just don’t invite him to your hockey party.
Speaking of hockey….are the Pens gonna be the ones that prevent the Caps from being only the 8th President’s Cup squad to win Lord Stanley’s?
"We just forgot our pants. Nothing against the team or anything like that." -- take a guess
Probably not.
Their defensemen are the suck.
But it doesn’t matter because Crosby pwn2ed Russia and America.
Crosby is his own nation.
"BSD. LSD. Coincidence? Probably." - PurpleMonkeyDishwasher
by ReadingRambler on Mar 26, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Rambler
my main concern is not really racism, although it is , in life, a major concern, but tradition and OMG I do remember all of the great kids of color that have attended PSU….the bottom line is why is it so hard to field great teams in both FB and BB at the same time…this is just not a PSU problem….back in the day when they recruited Franco, before seeing pix, I thought the “Kid” was of Irish extraction….it’s easy to say but I don’t have a racist gene in my broken down old body, but I do think PSU has a geographical problem when recruiting BB especially for the Big11….just sayin’.
by DerryPharmer on Mar 18, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
It's a good thing
there are no black players on the Penn State football team.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Mar 21, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Good post
But the whole Central PA/racism thing doesn’t hold a lot of water with me. State College has a lot more in common with an urban environment than it does with Hollidaysburg or Centre Hall. It’s not like the black players are interacting with the KKK members in Clearfield, They’re interacting with the other students. And black students are the minority at all major universities. That’s not just a Penn State problem.
I think the lack of tradition and support (of both the alums and the athletic department) is what the failures of PSU hoops are all about. Kids want to play for the best coaches and where they’ll get the most exposure. That’s not happening at PSU right now.
Completely agree.
That was a weird/flimsy argument. The KKK is actually based in Indiana, think IU has trouble getting black players (when the program isn’t on probation, that is)? The Southern Poverty Law Center is especially active in West Virginia; Bog Huggins’ team doesn’t look so lily white to me.
Tradition only hurts on the support side of things; if alumni/fans don’t truly care one way or another, you’ll be left with the status quo. Florida, Tennessee, and Utah (to name a few) created their own tradition by committing resources to their programs. If the powers that be ever decide they want badly enough to win at basketball, Penn State can be competitive in no time.
My dentist once fixed Russ Millard's tooth at 1 in the morning.
by Kyle McCann't on Mar 26, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree, that's the funny thing
about basketball. It really doesn’t take that long to put together a winner unless the road there is laden with potholes full of excuses.
One man doing the work of 100's for the good of 1000's
racism
I would probably re-write what I wrote up there now in regards to racism in central PA. Its impact on the basketball team is indirect at best. I think that Central PA just doesn’t care about basketball that much; central PA is also racist. Whether or not those two things are related probably doesn’t matter. The fact that central PA and the “university community” doesn’t particualrly care about hoops is what is really impacting the team.
Though, in giving this more thought, I’m also increasingly of the opinion that we need a better coach. And if we get the right one, that very well might be enough to completely turn the tide. In other words, maybe its not as convulated as I want to make it above, and maybe Ed’s more to blame than I’d previously thought.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
lol, while reading this
my mind started drifting to wrestling for some reason (basically because it is more popular in central PA than basketball).
Then I read “I’m also increasingly of the opinion that we need a better coach” and was like “Whhhaaaatttt??”
by The JuggerNitt on Mar 30, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions

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