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If Reggie Bush Didn't Exist, Does Penn State Win The 2005 National Championship?

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You may have heard something about this:

 The university was put on four years' probation, while the football program was hit with a two-year postseason ban and the men's basketball team was banned for one year from the postseason, which had already been self-imposed by the school.

...

The football team must vacate all wins in which Bush played while ineligible, starting in December 2004. The NCAA accepted USC's self-imposed penalty of vacating all wins in which Mayo competed during the 2007-08 season.

Forfeited wins are only that: the other team does not gain a win and no other down-the-chain events are retroactively said to have occurred.  Therefore what follows is fiction, but still interesting.

Star-divide

Penn State's 2005 season ended with a road game at Michigan State. Robinson had led the team to it's most successive in year, returning the program from the Dark Years and sat one win away from a Big Ten championship.

Penn State, before that final game, sat fourth in the BCS standings, behind pre-season favorites USC and Texas and one-loss Miami.

Penn State rolled in East Lansing. Then it go interesting. Miami, as 19-point favorites, fell to Georgia Tech. Later, LSU would fall to Georgia, eliminating any risk of them jumping Penn State as SEC champs.

USC fell behind Fresno State, down with under seven minutes to go.  They would rally though, and the two teams who started the season #1 and #2 ended there as well.  Penn State would finish third.

But what if USC failed to finished undefeated that season, which isn't hard to imagine if they were playing without Reggie Bush and runs like this one:

 

Well, you end up with Penn State going to the Rose Bowl to face Vince Young and Texas in the MNC game. 

Would Paterno stand a chance?  Well it's hard to say, really.

Longhorn schedule.  Texas absolutely rolled the Big XII that year, routing every team in the league including Colorado, who they beat 70-3 in the conference championship game.  But the second best team in the Big XII in 2005?  Nineteenth ranked Texas Tech.  Colorado, even as the North champion, didn't even receive votes in the final poll.

But they did have one tough game that season against guess who: Ohio State.  Maybe Vince Young wasn't rolling in that game like he was at the end of the year, but Ohio State had excuses as well.  There was the crucial dropped pass that led to some idiot Ohio State fans issuing death threats to the student-athlete. And one more thing: the Buckeyes Justin Zwick had 15 of the 21 attempts that game.  Most of them highly ineffective when compared to the other quarterback, Troy Smith, who eventually became the full-time starter.  They would finish that season ranked fourth overall, right behind Penn State.

LBU.  In the infamous Rose Bowl game, Young downed the Trojans by being effective both in the air and on the ground—although mostly on the ground.  It's where he scored all three of his TDs and where he averaged 10.5 yards per carry.

However, Penn State and their solid fronts have nearly always performed well against dual threat quarterbacks, in large part because of solid linebacker play.  Penn State had both Posluszny and Connor on that team.  There aren't a lot of shining examples to give here specific to 2005, but over time Penn State has defended against mobile backfields well.  It's something to consider, especially when you take into account that they had been practicing against a very similar offense all year long.  How similar?  Well...

The wildcard: The Paternos visit Texas.  This is where things get really interesting.  Joe had been hurting badly after the 2004 season, both on the field and in terms of fan support.  Mac Brown has been a friend of the great coach, and so Mac Brown thought he'd invite Joe and his staff down to Austin in the summer of 2005 so they could see how to use a mobile quarterback like Vince Yong.   Penn State has Robinson to work with, and since Penn State appeared to present no threat to a Texas team aiming for the stars, I'm sure Brown thought it no skin off his back:

"[Texas coach Mack Brown] was gracious enough to allow me to send some coaches down and they went down there and visited," coach Joe Paterno said. "The Texas coach was very open about everything. We came back with some thoughts."

But man would that generosity have backfired.  Getting a personal scouting report before the season with the team you'd be playing in the Rose Bowl is more than an advantage.  It would have certainly helped level the playing field.

So what thinks you?  Would Penn State of held their own, just 60 minutes from a Mythical National Championship in 2005?

Poll
Who wins the mythical Mythical National Championship game in 2005 between Penn State and Texas?
Michael Robinson and Penn State
844 votes
Vince Young and Texas
613 votes

1457 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 74 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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And if anyone can find me an article

talking about that 2005 visit to Texas, 10 BSD BUCKS—or about 88 Stanley Nickels—for you. Google is failing me.

I know about your diabolical plan.

by KevinHD on Jun 11, 2010 9:04 AM EDT reply actions  

PSU hands down

I was just arguing this yesterday at a bar and people thought I was crazy. I said, we would have beat Texas hands down, but probably lost to USC (for similar reasons as in 08 — the Cover 3 is great against running teams, not so much against pro-style passing teams, but I don’t want to get into that as I might fall into a ). I remember the Rose Bowl clearly and thinking the whole time, “Man, Puz would have stopped VY here, here, and here.” Texas won this game because USC’s defense couldn’t stop young, and that’s it. PSU could have, and would have won.

"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." - Joseph V. Paterno

by pricecheck on Jun 11, 2010 9:09 AM EDT reply actions  

I have had this same argument..

USC’s defense was horrible that year. They weren’t disciplined (kind of like the program in general) and couldn’t tackle. A PSU-Texas game would’ve been very similar to that year’s Texas-jaO$U game. I think PSU pulls out the win.

Never mistake effort for achievement.

Ah, beer, my one weakness. My Achille's heel, if you will. - HJS

by Esteban d' Amur on Jun 11, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

USC's defense had all those great athletes and little discipline.

This is why I refuse to count that game as a “great” game. USC’s failure to keep contain was just sad, and not all because of Young.

We would have beaten Texas. Not by much, but we would have done it. I’ll believe until I die that Matt Rice and Tamba Hali could have kept contain on Young, and I know Poz could have wrapped him up when he tackled. Our secondary wasn’t bad either.

Oh, and we clearly had the “heart” factor.

"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I

by ReadingRambler on Jun 11, 2010 9:16 AM EDT reply actions  

and instead we get to play a team ranked in the 20s

not to discount FSU’s play in the Orange Bowl, but that didn’t earn us much respect. BS as usual

"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."

by showtime on Jun 11, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I could believe Penn State could have won the title...

if we would have crushed Florida State in the Orange Bowl. We were lucky in that game. A missed extra point really helped us out.

by dontcallmescooter on Jun 11, 2010 9:46 AM EDT reply actions  

We weren't lucky.

We missed some kicks too, didn’t we? We also fumbled in the 4th in FSU territory when we could have essentially ended the game.

FSU was a talented team with a great, fast defense and an idiotic offensive coordinator. They played with everything they had, and if anything that game proved our mettle.

"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I

by ReadingRambler on Jun 11, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

The other thing about that game is that Penn State was never against the ropes, they just never could punch it out. And the injuries didn’t help either.

And really that was just a strange game, with the injuries and miscues, part of why Paterno probably hates the layoff/no CCG so much.

I know about your diabolical plan.

by KevinHD on Jun 11, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good point

We lost both Poz and Tony Hunt in the Orange Bowl. It might not have been so close otherwise.

by BSD on Jun 11, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

And the Rose Bowl may have gone our way if Royster’s legs stopped the bleeding in the 2nd Quarter when we couldn’t buy a 1st down. But you have to assume those injurries still take place and that’s why I don’t believe we could have beaten Texas w/out our starting RB.

Also Poz going out sucked, but Lee came in and nearly outplayed Poz.

by millzners on Jun 11, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

He still would have been out in this hypothetical though

Poz and Hunt may not have gotten hurt had we played a different game (not to mention the game may not have been as close as it was had our starting RB and star LB not gotten hurt). DWill still would have been out.

by dawsonPSU10 on Jun 11, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Florida State

The record indicates they were average. They were not average; they were two different teams.

Bad 05 FSU got pounded by Clemson and Virginia.

Good 05 FSU pounded Virginia Tech (don’t let the score fool you; that game was not close) and Boston College (a good team that year).

PSU drew good 05 Florida State, who was absolutely a MNC-caliber team.

No alarms and no surprises please.

by ckmneon on Jun 11, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

05 Florida State

The overall record indicates 05 FSU was an average team. If you watched them throughout that season, you would realize they were not an average team; they were two different teams.

Bad FSU lost to Virginia and Clemson.

Good FSU was an MNC-caliber team that beat the crap out of very good Va Tech and Boston College teams.

PSU played good FSU.

No alarms and no surprises please.

by ckmneon on Jun 11, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry about the duplicate

No alarms and no surprises please.

by ckmneon on Jun 11, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't call us lucky

as we slightly had the edge in regulation, but that game could have gone either way. Kevin said it best above – as I was sitting in the FSU endzone, I never really felt threatened by their offense marching on PSU for a score.

Both defenses controlled the game; PSU moreso than FSU. PSU outgained FSU by something like 100 yards or so and doubled their first downs, effectively shutting down their offense save for an 50yd screen. But PSU was exactly dominant on offense either – I mean, look at those drive charts.

It is what it was – a defensive battle and a hard fought victory…with maybe a fortunate bounce in OT :)

by Screen Name 20 on Jun 11, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

We also had Austin Scott rolling through them

Then inexplicably started passing.

"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."

-J.V.Pa.

by psume06 on Jun 11, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

PSU would've been a better matchup for Texas

Take a look at PSU’s front 7 from that season. Five players (!) from that front seven will be NFL starters next year. Does Vince Young run all over the field against that set of LBs and DEs? Maybe, but not nearly so easily as he did against Oklahoma State, Texas A&M, and USC.

PSU’s offense from ‘05 wasn’t as stellar on the field as it is in many of our memories, but it was every bit as good as was OkSU and A&M had. PSU could’ve put up points on Texas.

The team most similar to PSU that Texas played was Ohio State. Vince Young single-handedly beat Ohio State that year, but he did it with his arm, not his legs, late in the game. While that OSU front 7 got a lot more press than PSU’s front 7 did, we all know who had the better group.

Bottom line: Vince Young does not run all over the ‘05 PSU defense. If Vince Young doesn’t run all over the PSU defense, Texas can’t keep up.

No alarms and no surprises please.

by ckmneon on Jun 11, 2010 10:22 AM EDT reply actions  

Can you imagine if PSU had defeated UM?

…and all of this stuff fell out? That would be two undefeated teams (Auburn 2004 and Penn State 2005) ruined by the arrogance of Reggie Bush.

by Cairo on Jun 11, 2010 10:23 AM EDT reply actions  

And if it happened 2 years in a row

that would have been chaos. Maybe the cries for the demise of the BCS would have come to fruition if it was an actual BCS conference clamoring for it as opposed to a non-BCS conference.

We are gonna shock them with 5,000 mega watts of raw ROO POWER.

by psuwxman on Jun 11, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Count me as "Nope"

I’ve rewatched the 2006 Orange Bowl, more then once since it happened. Beyond the score of the game, the easiest thing to say is that we didn’t play to our potential. We came in, Hunt went down early, Puz went down later… The offense sputtered often, MRob never hit his stried, the defense played lights out, and we scraped by with a freshman kicker in triple overtime. That game was legendary, but I always thought we played quite poorly.

The thing about Penn State is that we never play the bowl game like we played the last game of the season. Maybe MSU makes it look easy, but I think more then likely by that time in the season our teams show their true potential. And 7 weeks later they’re flat. It’s not a coincidence we’ve had 3/4 years with RB injuries during the bowl games.

So would we have beat Texas? Not with Hunt injured. And all things equal you have to assume he would have been. Otherwise I’ll bet the farm that we beat USC with Royster. But that’s football.

by millzners on Jun 11, 2010 11:17 AM EDT reply actions  

You're right.

Usually we play the bowl game better than we played the last game of the season.

FSU played far beyond their potential that night. In fact, I think they would have given Texas a run. Mickey Andrews just decided to blitz blitz blitz and hope his DBs could hold out, and it worked. Penn State played sloppy, but they showed a lot of heart, and if not for Hunt’s injury the offense would have played much better. Our blitz pickups were seriously downgraded.

"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I

by ReadingRambler on Jun 11, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think FSU played to their potential

That team was pretty loaded. Just underachieved in the regular season.

by speedomike on Jun 11, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

^ This

They had a month to get their S together and played like they should have all year long

by mbailey71 on Jun 11, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

So the question is

If we didn’t have Hunt, could we have beaten Texas. I think with Hunt we could have, without not, but assuming the absence of in-game injuries is a whole new can of worms.

by millzners on Jun 11, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW

I meant the question to assume there were NOT the other-dimension injuries.

I know about your diabolical plan.

by KevinHD on Jun 11, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think we beat Texas

When DWill went down the offense took a hit. I don’t know that we would have been able to do much on offense. We might have slowed Young down, but I don’t think quite enough. I’ll say 20-13 Texas.

by speedomike on Jun 11, 2010 12:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Really?

We destroyed Illinois, ran all over Purdue and MSU, and beat the crap out of Wisconsin, all without Williams. Robinson was constantly improving as a passer too.

"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I

by ReadingRambler on Jun 11, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Williams was great

but only really played in 3 or 4 games that actually mattered
Northwestern
Minnesota
OSU
Michigan

and he was injured a chunk of Michigan.

by The JuggerNitt on Jun 11, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

right, but he didn't make plays in the remainder of our schedule

and we fared quite well.

Average score with Williams: 32.1
Average score without Williams: 37.6

I’d hardly say our offense took a hit.

by The JuggerNitt on Jun 11, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

We had our most points and most total yards against Minnesota

With DWill.

And those point totals are skewed by the Ohio State game, which was a defensive battle, and the Illinois game which was a complete joke.

by speedomike on Jun 11, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry

I realize we had the most against Illinois but that game doesn’t count to me.

by speedomike on Jun 11, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I almost forgot about that game.

I’ve never watched the entirety of something so absurd.

I know about your diabolical plan.

by KevinHD on Jun 11, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

they are definitely skewed

but the points with DWill was also skewed by
South Florida (6-6)
Cincinnati (4-7)
Central Michigan (6-5)

I don’t want to discount how great D-Will was, and he would obviously be a huge improvement if we had him (plus he probably would have gotten better as the season went on), but we were still quite capable without him.

The key to beating Texas wouldn’t have been having D-Will. It would have been containing Young, and controlling the ball.

by The JuggerNitt on Jun 11, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just think

He added an element that we would have needed against Texas.

by speedomike on Jun 11, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

probably, and he definitely would have helped

but we didn’t NEED him in quite the way I think you are implying.

by The JuggerNitt on Jun 11, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

You don't lose DWill and get better

That’s what common sense says. The stats on the year beg to differ

No alarms and no surprises please.

by ckmneon on Jun 11, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Robinson and the team as a whole improved drastically over the year

Had DWill been available all year it would have even shown as a greater improvement. MR and DWill were just getting in tune when he went down.

by BMAN13 on Jun 11, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do they though?

Look at the numbers against Minnesota:
35 first downs, 44 points, 539 total yards, 13 of 19 on 3rd down

Those numbers are all better than the Purdue, Wisconsin, and Michigan State games. To me, that Minnesota game was the peak of the offense. They had worked out the kinks in the first 4 games, and were just hitting their stride. Sure, they still were good the rest of the year, but I still maintain losing DWill hurt.

by speedomike on Jun 11, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd wager the last three teams all had better defenses.

"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I

by ReadingRambler on Jun 11, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Going by total defense

Only Michigan State did. Michigan State was 87, Minnesotat 90, Wisconsin 92, Purdue 100.
2005 Total D

by speedomike on Jun 11, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

WHATEVER.

"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I

by ReadingRambler on Jun 11, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Scoring Defense

You’re right based on scoring defense though:

Wisconsin 48, Purdue 75, MSU 77, Minnesota 80.

Can you tell that my school year is over and I’m on summer break?

And regardless of the stats, I just think the offense looked more dangerous with DWill. I realize that’s a lame argument, but aren’t all arguments on college football message boards lame?

by speedomike on Jun 11, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm bored.

When’s Nebraska’s press conference?

"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I

by ReadingRambler on Jun 11, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously

I was hoping for extreme updates all day long.

by RitterPSU on Jun 11, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

your mom is a lame argument!

what do you have to say about that? Yeah, that’s what I thought.

by The JuggerNitt on Jun 11, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was originally going to do a lame "your mom" joke to Rambler

but then realized I was actually quite fond of the Pentium III, even if it was prone to overheating.

by The JuggerNitt on Jun 11, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Coaches opened it up

I think the staffs confidence in MRob and the offense allowed them to open up the playbook as the season went along. A healthy DWill would have been an awesome weapon.

by Frank O'Brien on Jun 11, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Remind me what the Texas special teams was like?

That was the killer against FSU, true to form. I think it would have been the difference.

by PSUinBOSSton on Jun 11, 2010 12:24 PM EDT reply actions  

so the question is

How many of these kids end up at Florida? Can you imagine Barkley going to Ohio State? Could be as fun to watch as this conference expansion.

by millzners on Jun 11, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmm, I think not.

“Young Barkley” vs. “Young Pryor” was last year, right?

Now I can’t remember.

by PSUinBOSSton on Jun 11, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, it would've been Young Pryor vs Younger Barkley

But your sentiment is there. Yes, Barkley was a frosh last year. It’s part of the reason they were down last year – Sanchez left for the NFL, leaving USC with no experienced QB talent. So they were just hoping that the “amazo-frosh” would send them back to the promised land.

"I did my walk of shame this morning and everyone was so much nicer," she said. "People were inviting me to parties at 9 a.m."

by IcersGuy on Jun 11, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like to place an order please:

A couple of O-lineman, a punter, and one more highly rated QB to throw into the competition mix. That should do it, thank you.

by PSU Mudder on Jun 11, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

My favorite part?

mgoblog hoping they can poach some defense.

I know about your diabolical plan.

by KevinHD on Jun 11, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

doubt anyone transfers from one wreck to car going the wrong way on a one way street

by BMAN13 on Jun 11, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I doubt Michigan's sanctions are anywhere close to USC.

They might still be on the way down, but for entirely different reasons.

by VVeRPennState on Jun 11, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll rec dumping on scUM any day.

"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."

-J.V.Pa.

by psume06 on Jun 11, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

More power to them

Watching one bombed out program poach players from another more recently bombed out program is sweet sweet schadenfreude.

by millzners on Jun 11, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

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