Penn State History: Joining The Big Ten
Since making the big announcement last week that Nebraska will join the Big Ten as their twelfth member, the entire conference has joined hands and sang Cumbaya over the news. Just about every university president, athletic director, and football coach released a statement praising the decision, which was approved by unanimous vote of the Big Ten presidents and chancellors.
"By unanimous vote, the Big Ten Presidents and Chancellors are pleased to welcome the University of Nebraska-Lincoln to the Big Ten Conference," said COP/C Chair and Michigan State President Lou Anna K. Simon. "We believe Nebraska is an extraordinary fit, reflecting the criteria we established at the beginning of the process - high academic quality, competitiveness, cultural compatibility and fiscal responsibility. The extensive and in-depth discussions my colleagues and I have had about Big Ten expansion permitted us to act expeditiously and prudently on the application submitted by Nebraska. We look forward to working with our colleagues at UNL in the years ahead."
Rainbows and lollipops for everyone!
The addition of Nebraska has been universally praised by everyone, and rightfully so. They are a tremendous program with a proud tradition. Adding a twelfth member should have happened 15 years ago, but it's finally here and now we are on the cusp of a new and exciting era of divisional play and Big Ten championship games. Big Ten football will never be the same, and it is better for it.
But 20 years ago there weren't many puppy dogs and man hugs when Penn State was extended an invitation to join the league.
The wheels of Penn State joining the Big Ten started in the early part of the 1980s. Joe Paterno was serving double duty as head football coach and athletic director. From this unique position Paterno could see that the future of college athletics rested in conferences. Penn State's non-revenue sports were struggling and weighing like an anchor on the athletic program. Football was paying the bills, but the entire department was at risk of collapse if the football team ever fell on hard times.
It was then that Paterno came up with his grand vision of an eastern all-sports conference that would include Penn State's traditional rivals like Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College, Temple, Maryland, and West Virginia. But issues over revenue sharing couldn't be worked out. Syracuse and Boston College felt their future was better served in basketball, so they joined the Big East and then coaxed Pitt to come along. Penn State petitioned to join the league, but the Big East didn't think their basketball program was up to their standards and they didn't want to be associated with football. (Syracuse, Pitt, and Boston College continued playing football as independents.) Penn State was left to wander through the wilderness on its own.
Penn State managed to land their non-football sports in the Atlantic 10 conference and remained an independent in football for several years. It worked well with Penn State playing in the national championship game in 1985 and returning to win it all in 1986. But then they had a scare.
In 1988 the football team went through a brutal rebuilding year and Joe Paterno suffered his first losing season going 5-6. Not only was it Paterno's first losing season, it was Penn State's first losing season in 49 years. Paterno wasn't getting any younger and was openly saying he planned to retire when he turned 65, just after the 1991 season. (Ha!) Penn State President Bryce Jordan felt he needed to find better financial security for Penn State's athletic program to ensure success in the post-Paterno era. So for that he looked west.
Jordan got in contact with Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany and Illinois President Stanley Ikenberry, who was serving as the head of Council of Ten, the Big Ten's council of presidents. Over a span of a few months they spoke and arranged secret meetings to discuss the Big Ten absorbing the eastern power.
Penn State was a good fit for the Big Ten from an academic standpoint, Ikenberry said. But what about the Big Ten appealed to Penn State from an athletic standpoint? Ikenberry said then-Penn State President Bryce Jordan wanted to think about life A.P. (After Paterno).
"(Jordan) said, 'We think we've got to begin to plan for the post-Paterno era because you know Joe's not going to be around forever and he's getting up in years,' " Ikenberry said.
...
The initial meetings were extremely private. Bordering on secretive. Paterno, then-athletic director Jim Tarman and then-CFO Steve Garban visited with Ikenberry on the Illinois campus.
Ikenberry lobbied the Big Ten presidents for months, and when he felt he had a strong enough coalition, he let Penn State know.Ikenberry said at the time,
''We're proud of their academic standing,'' Ikenberry said. ''We're also pleased with the integrity with which they have conducted their intercollegiate programs.''
But word got out to the press (from the Penn State side) before any official announcement was made by the Big Ten office. The athletic directors and sports coaches of the Big Ten were blind sided and not pleased that such an important decision was made without anyone seeking their input. And shortly after the announcement was made, Delany had to backpedal a bit and say that Penn State had been "invited in principle", meaning the Big Ten wanted to slow down and consult their coaches and athletic directors. The next several months were not pretty.
Michigan Athletic Director Bo Schembechler said,
It might be an exciting addition. I don't know how they will fit in. But you don't add someone to the conference and not consult the people in athletics. That was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen done. I, and most of the other athletic directors in our conference, resent the way it was done, and if I offend some presidents, that's too damn bad.
The time has come that if they want to take over, they better consult the people who know what the hell is going on. They (the presidents) did it because of the friendship they have with each other. One president probably said, 'Hey, I'd like to play in your league,' and the other president said, 'Come on over and do it." That's about how much research went into that decision.
Much of the criticism that Penn State faced centered around the location of State College in rural Pennsylvania. At the time, the State College airport was too small to accomodate the charter jets that teams used to travel. So teams visiting Penn State had to fly into Harrisburg and take a two hour bus ride to get to State College. Bobby Knight famously said,
I've been to Penn State, and Penn State is a camping trip. There is nothing for about 100 miles.
Minnesota's Athletic Director Rick Bay was one of the more vocal opponents to Penn State's invitation. (emphasis added)
"I don't think it's a done deal," Bay said. "Maybe it's some wishful thinking on my part, but I think I see some backpedaling."
Wisconsin refused to take a position in favor of or against Penn State, which basically means they were against it but didn't want to sound like a bad guy.
After studying the decision for six months, the Big Ten presidents got together in Iowa and voted. Two-thirds of the Council of Ten had to vote in favor of Penn State in order for the Nittany Lions to be granted membership. The final vote was split 7-3 which gave Penn State the minimum number of required votes.
The Council of Ten, the association of Big Ten presidents, officially extended Penn State an invitation to join the conference June 4. But not all the members were waiting with open arms. Although Penn State received the two-thirds majority vote necessary to become a member, three of the 10 members reportedly gave Penn State the thumbs down.
Indiana President Tom Ehrlich is the only council member to admit voting against Penn State's invitation. Reportedly Michigan President James Duderstadt and Michigan State President John DiBiaggio also cast opposing votes.
Usually in these types of things you see a unanimous vote once the minority realizes their cause is a losing one. The fact that this didn't happen here tells you there were strong feelings involved. I'm not saying Joe Paterno holds a grudge over Indiana for openly voting against Penn State, but the Hoosiers are the only Big Ten team that still hasn't beaten the Nittany Lions in football. Just sayin'.
After the deciding vote was cast and done, Jim Delany said things could have been handled differently.
Delany acknowledged there was "a lot of turmoil" last December over the lack of communication between the Council of Ten and their athletic and faculty representatives.
"I don't think anyone can dispute that. There's been differences of opinion," he said. "Perhaps if we had it to do all over again, we'd use a different process, a process with more consultation. But that's water over the bridge."
Twenty years later Delany got his chance to visit conference expansion again, and true to his word Delany and the Big Ten took a much more deliberate approach to adding Nebraska.
Even after the vote was done, some coaches and athletic directors refused to get in line and support the move.
Minnesota Athletic Director Rick Bay, one of the leading opponents of Penn State's inclusion, said if athletic directors had voted on Monday instead of school presidents, "Penn State wouldn't be a member of the league."
Indiana football coach Bill Mallory said after the vote that he "would rather just leave the league as it is."
"I don't think it needs to be changed. I haven't seen (how adding Penn State) is going to benefit (the Big Ten)," Mallory said.
Ouch. Ohio State athletic director Jim Jones wasn't exactly offering up ringing endorsements either.
Ohio State Athletic Director Jim Jones would not discuss his opinion about Penn State. "It's immaterial how Jim Jones feels. It's done," he said.
In some cases, other schools actually made threats against Penn State.
Big Ten Conference basketball teams have issued a warning to Penn State: Build a new (basketball) arena or forget about playing host to conference games, (Penn State's) athletic director told the Board of Trustees yesterday.
One of the awkward things about Penn State joining the Big Ten was that after the announcement was made in 1990, the Nittany Lions didn't actually start competing in the Big Ten schedule until 1993. This in itself created a lot of tension between Penn State and the other Big Ten members.
Just like Big Ten expansion in 2010, Big Ten expansion in 1990 set off a ripple effect as other conferences panicked to snatch up new members and secure their position in the dawning age of the "Super Conferences". The SEC plucked Arkansas from the Southwest Conference and South Carolina who was competing as an independent. The ACC countered by taking Florida State who was competing in the Metro Conference. A few years later the Southwest Conference split up as Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, and Texas A&M joined the Big 8 to become the Big XII. The Big East made the biggest move adding Virginia Tech, Rutgers, West Virginia, Temple, and Miami and became a football conference in 1991.
As the age of the super conference dawned, they all jockeyed and negotiated for bowl game alliances. In 1992, still a season away from Penn State officially joining the Big Ten, Penn State found themselves in a position where they were locked out of all the major bowl games.
A series of arrangements between bowls and conferences will leave Penn State out of a major New Year's Day bowl game next year, even if the Nittany Lions are ranked No. 1 and unbeaten.
Obviously, Penn State was not happy about this.
"Our assumption is that we would operate as an independent and be in the at-large pool," Penn State Athletic Director Jim Tarman said Thursday. "We received assurances from several bowls that was the case."
...
Tarman was incredulous and then annoyed about Penn State's situation."I can't believe the networks would let that happen," he said. "You can't convince me that there isn't resentment out there about us going to the Big Ten."
The resentment Tarman was talking about was mostly directed at the Big East and Notre Dame due to Penn State cancelling many of the agreements they had to play each other to make room for the Big Ten schedule starting in 1993. Penn State was still a year away from joining the Big Ten and being eligible for the Rose Bowl and all of the other Big Ten bowl tie-ins, but obviously Jim Delany and nobody else went to bat for their future Big Ten partner to get them access to quality bowl games. And nobody in the Big Ten offered to allow Penn State to be eligible for their Big Ten bowl games after the Rose Bowl.
Penn State was forced to look out for their own interests. This led to the unusual situation where Penn State made an agreement to play in the Blockbuster Bowl (modern-day Champs Sports Bowl) before the 1992 season began. A major controversy was avoided as Penn State went 7-5 on the year, including a loss to Stanford in the Blockbuster Bowl.
While the bowl game situation with the football team was annoying, the situation with the basketball team was downright crippling. When Penn State announced they were joining the Big Ten, the Atlantic 10 wasn't happy about having a lame duck contender in their league. They allowed Penn State to participate in the 1990-1991 season, but they kicked them out on their own for the 1991-1992 season. Penn State was put in the middle of a scheduling crisis where they needed a ton of games on short notice. They pleaded with the Big Ten to help them out and give them some games, but they got very little assistance.
Penn State basketball coach Bruce Parkhill was furious saying,
I'm disappointed more Big Ten people didn't help out. It's not that they couldn't. They wouldn't.
Illinois and Ohio State were kind enough to offer Parkhill some games, but they were early in the season and Parkhill needed to fill out the schedule in January and February. To Northestern's credit, they claimed they called Parkhill but their phone calls weren't returned. As a result Penn State had an abysmal schedule.
The Big Ten had a lucrative television contract that had all of their non-conference games televised, and adding Penn State to the schedule would not have looked attractive to the networks. The reaction from other Big Ten schools could basically be summed up as "Ha Ha!"
Both (Michigan State basketball coach Jud) Heathcote and (Iowa basketball coach Tom) Davis suggested Parkhill enjoy a weak schedule while he has a chance.
"It could be a blessing. He should enjoy a 20-win season while he can," Heathcote said. "I say that tongue-in-cheek...but I'll trade him schedules if he wants to."
"He may prefer to stay with that schedule," Davis said.
After Penn State officially joined the league in 1993, things didn't get much better. Many of the Good Ol' Boys of the Big Ten resented Penn State because they thought Penn State thought they were going to come in and dominate the league. The Big Ten wasn't getting much respect in the '80s, and they hadn't won a National Championship since Ohio State in 1968. People were saying Penn State was going to save the Big Ten from obscurity. Others said Penn State was going to dominate the league. Comments like those made by Pennsylvania Lt. Governor Mark Singel didn't help. (emphasis added)
Lt. Gov. Mark Singel, however, was already saying, "I'm personally pleased that it's come together.""What it means to Penn State fans is this: They can make plans to attend a Rose Bowl in the very near future," Said Singel, a Penn State trustee.
The animosity toward Penn State lingered for years after Penn State was admitted to the league. Lou Prator explains,
"But that anger from the coaches continued for almost a decade and a half," said Penn State historian Lou Prato, who has authored several books on the football program. "It’s only subsided because a lot of those coaches left for one reason or another. They all thought Penn State thought it was going to come in and take over the league and win every game, but Penn State didn’t believe that. That was one of the biggest myths."
Michigan players were particularly disrespectful toward the Nittany Lions. The Wolverines had won or shared five straight Big Ten championships from 1988 to 1992, and they didn't particularly care for this new program coming in with a chip on their shoulder.
At Michigan, the words "Penn State" are all but "X" rated."We're not allowed to say 'Penn State,'" Michigan recruit Jon Ritchie said while preparing for the Pennsylvania-Ohio interstate all-star game last July. "We have to say, 'the other team' or 'the 11th school.'"
When the two teams met for the first time in their 1000 game histories, Penn State was 5-0 and talking about winning the Big Ten in their first year. Michigan was 3-2 with losses to Notre Dame and Michigan State. The Wolverines were also highly annoyed. You probably remember how that game went. Penn State had a chance to win, but Joe Paterno elected to run up the middle four plays in a row and got stuffed.
The Wolverines relished the opportunity to woof it up after the game.
"You just have to pay your dues. Just like a freshman, you can't come in bragging and boasting," said (Michigan running back Tyrone) Wheatley.
...
"We weren't going to lay down and let them take our championship away from us," defensive lineman Tony Henderson said.
In 1994 in the midst of another Big Ten championship run in just their second year, quarterback Kerry Collins reflected on the relationship between Penn State and the Big Ten.
It might be a marriage made in heaven, but Penn State's union with the Big Ten has not been without skeptical in-laws.
"I feel there's a bit of resentment," Penn State quarterback Kerry Collins said Wednesday. "I don't feel we've been accepted because we're the new kid on the block. I think it will be taken care of over time. But I think that theory definitely holds some water.
Twenty years later, most people recognize the positive impact that Penn State has had in the Big Ten. Though it's not too hard to find sentiment in some Big Ten message boards that the Big Ten should have shipped Penn State back to the Big East instead of expanding and adding Nebraska.
The resentment Penn State experienced when they first made the jump to the Big Ten has mostly subsided. A lot of that is due to the fact that Penn State has not dominated the league as most people predicted 20 years ago. It also has a lot to do with the fact that most of the people who opposed Penn State's inclusion are either dead or retired. But Penn State is still kind of a third wheel in this conference. Currently it can be seen as people discuss possible division splits in the new 12 team league. The question that always seems to be left over at the end of discussion is, "What to do with Penn State?"
Will it ever change? Who knows. Penn State's east coast proximity will likely always clash with the midwestern flavor of the Big Ten. But Penn Staters could never dream of going back to being independent or joining the Big East. And I suspect most people in the Big Ten recognize that the conference is better off with the Nittany Lions as a member.
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I blame the B10 for 1994
It was just another FU from the conference. As far as I’m concerned, they reached in and took a NC out of our trophy case and to this day are still laughing about it. I think this is the best conference for us, the addition of Nebraska makes it even better, but I don’t care for the B10 and I probably never well. Nebraska will probably integrate very quickly due to geography and before long people will forget they’re the 12th team and we’ll still be the odd man out, treated like a foreign exchange student.
Also, great post, it was a great read.
Do you want the mustache on, or off?
Too bad.
Although I can ascribe all sorts of other slights to the conference
I can’t blame them for the AP voters. The schools have no control or affiliation with those bozos.
it can be kind of a reach
But in my opinion those AP voters are fans and as much a part of those programs as any paid staffer. They spend their days following, covering, and traveling with those teams. A lot of them (as is still the case today) are homers for the team they cover. If those programs loathe PSU, that opinion is going to permeate the AP very easily.
Do you want the mustache on, or off?
Too bad.
The writers formed the national perception of PSU
All they did was focus on what’s wrong with Penn State. They said there was no way Penn State could keep giving up 25 points per game and go undefeated. But week in and week out PSU would go out and beat their opponent by three or four touchdowns.
And it was similar to the 2008 season where every team was “a new test” sure to trip up PSU. But then they kept moving the goal posts. When they beat #14 USC 38-14, well, that meant USC wasn’t as good as we thought they were. When they beat #21 Ohio State 63-14, well, that’s because John Cooper is an idiot. We grudgingly got credit for beating #5 Michigan, but the criticism they gave us for giving up two garbage time touchdowns in the final minutes against Indiana to make the final score of 35-29 erased all of that.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
A lot of those writers are so self-important, they think they can decide the outcome of games before they’re played. The AP voters get so wrapped up in their own prognosticating that they sometimes act resentful at the actual game itself because it didn’t turn out the way they said it would. It’s like the actual games get in the way of the press ultimately just deciding in September who the best team is.
Do you want the mustache on, or off?
Too bad.
Delany
I didn’t know he has been B10 commissioner for so many years. I’m glad to see that he’s learned from his mistakes.
Isn’t it funny how we were so hated when we first arrived to the league, yet we still don’t have a “true” rival?
Did Bo get his feewings hurt?
It seems like a lot of Big Ten coaches and athletic directors had a very inflated view of their importance to the league as a whole. When it turned out that JD was, in fact, not only capable of getting dressed in the morning without Bo Schembechler’s approval of the underwear color, but of actually acting like the Big Ten Commish without him, his pride was hurt and he, along with the likes of Parkhill, Davis, Knight, Mallory, et al, lashed out against PSU as a result. Bo wanted so bad to take his ball and go home, only to find out it wasn’t his ball to begin with.
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
by ckmneon on Jun 22, 2010 8:41 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
Bo was worried...
that his beloved team might no longer be a shoe in for the typical season ending loss to USC in the Rose Bowl.
PSU was feared, but PSU made the conference, at least football wise( and volleyball and fencing etc.) much, much better. Big Ten football was at its peak from 93 to about 02.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
Ah, beer, my one weakness. My Achille's heel, if you will. - HJS
by Esteban d' Amur on Jun 22, 2010 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions
All anyone needs to know about Bo
is that he fired Ernie Harwell.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
It's too late now....
I have always thought that PSU never was or is a" respected" member of the Western Conference….I’ll be surprised if there is any expansion to the Eastern side…it’s been said by many in different ways, but We still remain the odd man out…give the CornHolers just a short period of time and they’ll be one of the Princes of the elite….the only good thing about this is that they are still waiting for Joe to die and they mostly already are….in that regard, I say to Hell with ‘em; it’s not going to change now and I have always loved PSU, warts or none.
I have a few problems with one paragraph.
“It was then that Paterno came up with his grand vision of an eastern all-sports conference that would include Penn State’s traditional rivals like Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College, Temple, Maryland, and West Virginia. But issues over revenue sharing couldn’t be worked out. Syracuse and Boston College felt their future was better served in basketball, so they joined the Big East and then coaxed Pitt to come along. Penn State petitioned to join the league, but the Big East didn’t think their basketball program was up to their standards and they didn’t want to be associated with football.”
1. SU and BC were invited to join the Big East in 1979 … long before Paterno floated his idea of an all-sports conference.
2. Because revenue sharing details for football couldn’t be worked out, SU and BC refused to leave the Big East. Both schools would have lost money by joining the new conference. It was simply a financial decision.
3. To the best of my knowledge, Paterno never “petitioned” the Big East for membership. Jake Crouthamel at SU and Bill Flynn at BC lobbied to get PSU invited, but fell 1 vote short.
4. SU and BC did NOT coax Pitt into joining. That was all Dave Gavitt’s doing. Gavitt was afraid that if Paterno softened his stance on football revenue sharing, SU and BC would change leagues. To prevent this, Gavitt forced the non-football members of the Big East to vote for Pitt. Once Pitt was off the table, the all-sports concept was dead.
If you want to blame somebody, blame Seton Hall. Penn State almost had the best of both worlds … a conference home for basketball, and revenue independence for football.
At least until you joined the Big 10.
Fair enough
I didn’t spend much time researching the details of the courtship between PSU and the Big East. Anyway, you get conflicting stories based on who you talk to.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
Excellent article!
I graduated from high school in 1991 (Red Lion, home of Scott Fitzkee) and was only a casual fan of Penn State at the time. I didn’t know about the history of Penn State joining the Big Ten and this was really informative. Great article.
I think we need to get over it.
It was almost 20 years ago now, and when I was an athlete in the late 90s I never saw any of the animosity that marked the beginning of the transition. We were the first team to join the conference in nearly 50 years at that point and the league and presidents didn’t exactly handle the addition or announcement very well. They obviously learned their lessons this time around and involved the ADs, coaches and presidents, took their time to explore before inviting and announcing and basically put together a bulletproof case for Nebraska. Beyond that, since Penn State is obviously such an unqualified success as a big ten member, there is significantly less concern about the addition of a new school.
Anyway, go ahead and shout me down. I just think complaining about events long past makes us sound bitter and small.
by Ibleedblueandwhite on Jun 22, 2010 9:41 AM EDT reply actions
I agree with you
I think it’s in the past now. The intent of the post was not to complain about it. It was a significant time in Penn State history that I think people, especially younger people who were not around, are interested in hearing about.
The Big Ten is home to Penn State now. I think Penn State likes it there, and I think the Big Ten now universally recognizes that PSU is a good fit.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
As a former history major
I enjoyed the information. I’ve just seen this theme a few times in the Penn State blogosphere recently, so I’m a bit sensitive to it.
by Ibleedblueandwhite on Jun 22, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Understood
I tried not to interject my own opinions into the post and tried to let the links and quotes tell the story. I’m also sensitive to the fact that the rest of the Big Ten perceives us as a bunch of whiners always claiming the deck is stacked against us. I thought by building a post that consisted of mostly the words of their own people I could combat that.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on Jun 22, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And you did a very good job of that
Great post. +1
Let's Go State!
by Gopher Broke on Jun 22, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Great post Really is fascinating now that we have the distance from the event to see the opinions
"I love it when a plan comes together!" Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith
by psu in the w-b on Jun 22, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
"I tried not to interject my own opinions into the post and tried to let the links and quotes tell the story."
I think you succeeded in limiting your opinion and I think the facts without opinion really say the most about the message we get from your piece. It still loudly yells about how PSU will always be the red headed step child… even when a new step child is introduced. Iowa and other schools are already fighting over who gets to be Nebraska’s new rival!
I’m glad we’re finally getting past this nasty time in PSU’s history. Of course now we have to deal with the rest of the nation and how the Big Ten sux and how the SEC invented football and running fast.
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
And for all the bellyaching that it's been fun to do
about the conference, this latest round of expansion proved once and for all that PSU is better off in the Big Ten. The eastern conference was never going to happen, which means that had PSU not joined the Big Ten, we would’ve been Notre Dame or Texas or Missouri — all worried about the future and how to protect our programs. Instead, we sat in a postion of pwer, watching the rest of it unfold while maintaining an unassailable position as a member of the group with the most leverage.
On the flip side, Big Ten fans make sport of bellyaching about Penn State, but in a world where the media likes to take shots at the quality of the compeition in the Big Ten, the Big Ten needs Penn State. Kick Penn State out (pre-Nebraska) and you’re looking at perception dropping below the PAC 10 to somewhere near Big East/ACC levels.
The Big Ten is great for PSU, and PSU is great for the Big Ten — a mutually beneficial arrangement.
Schembechler
I’m trying to think of a college football coach more overrated than Bo Schembechler and I can’t. The man never won a national championship and lost something twice as many bowl games as he won. Big deal, he had a “ten year war” with Woody Hayes. Lloyd Carr even won half a title! Schembechler was more Barry Alvarez than Jim Tressel, except Alvarez is kind of likable.
Blogging about D.C. Baseball since April '04. Penn State alum. Also partial to the Washington Capitals, New York Yankees and Yale football.
This is the absolute truth
Just don’t say this anywhere north of Lima, OH, for the sake of your health.
No MNCs (though he did get screwed out of one in the “phantom TD” Rose Bowl vs. USC), no Heisman trophy winners, an atrocious bowl record, and a “meh” record vs. Ohio State (how many of those games were coached against Earl Bruce and John Cooper?). By this measure, he’s Tommy Tuberville at Auburn with a longer tenure.
Bo is a legend because he turned Michigan around and made them a powerhouse. For all of Michigan’s pre-Korean war glory, when Bo took over at Michigan, Michigan was looking up at about half of the Big Ten and had been for some time, and was so far behind Ohio State and Notre Dame that they couldn’t see them. When Bo left Michigan, UM was annually penciled in as Big Ten Champs.
How is this any different than Barry Alvarez? Alvarez had a Heisman winner. Other than that, beats me.
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
I think the phantom TD thing happened to Ohio State. At least that’s how I remember it.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok, but they already had a loss to MSU. I don’t think they would have vaulted Alabama.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Tuberville should have won a national title
He got screwed.
When in doubt, punt!
- John Heisman
by carolinaeasy on Jun 22, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
^this
Alvarez might even have been better…
Never mistake effort for achievement.
Ah, beer, my one weakness. My Achille's heel, if you will. - HJS
by Esteban d' Amur on Jun 22, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
More overrated
Every Notre Dame coach since Rockne
Hayden Fry
Les Miles
Steve Spurrier
Pete Carroll
In terms of the credit they got vs. the credit they deserved, I think all of those guys are more overrated than Bo
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
How is Hayden Fry more overrated? Sure, he only made it to three Rose Bowls and never won one, but a) Iowa was horrible before he arrived and b) he’s never been as hyped as Bo.
And yes, I relished this opportunity.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Additionally, Iowa (especially 20-30 years ago) didn’t have the same resources as Michigan. Plus Fry, not Joe Tiller, was the one who really brought passing to the Big Ten, along with shaking up the dominance of the “Big two”.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget
Fry also brought the stand-up tight end. What was the point of that anyway?
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
That was genius
Former Fry assistant Bill Snyder actually wrote a book about it.
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
I dunno, but it was pretty cool.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Also
Iowa was horrible when Fry left. In his last 6 years, Iowa finished above .500 in Big Ten play only once (1996) and had more than 7 overall wins only twice. Combined with Ferentz’ early years, it’s fairly obvious that Fry did not leave Iowa better than he found it.
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
Yeah, he stunk when he got old. Happens to a lot of coaches. But he still left Ferentz with some history to build upon. There was no history for Fry when he arrived in Iowa.
And RUTS hit on a point I should have thought of: Fry isn’t a legend outside of the state of Iowa. He’ll always be a legend in Iowa for bringing them games like this. He deserves that reputation.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
No history?

I think there was some history there.
Also they won the 1958 National Championship, it was the then equivalent of the Coaches Poll championship, in that it was the most prestigious poll that voted after the bowls.
When in doubt, punt!
- John Heisman
by carolinaeasy on Jun 22, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Iowa had been really, really bad for around twenty years before Fry arrived.
Fry didn’t leave Iowa worse than he found it. Yes, they weren’t really competitive, but there was only one truly horrible season before Ferentz took over (Fry’s last season in 98) and it still really didn’t compare to some of the seasons in the early 70s.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
I’ve always contended that if it weren’t for the misery of the 60’s and (especially) 70’s Iowa would be considered an elite program. Evashevski was a fantastic coach but he was a crap AD, and it took a decade for Bump Elliot to find the right fit with Hayden Fry after two horrible misfires with Lauterbur and Commings. Had Iowa had sustained success through the 60’s and 70’s, though, they’d be in the same figurative league with Ohio State and Michigan that they are in literally.
However, we’ve been pretty successful the past few decades, and if we can continue trending upward with our next coach or two we could break through the barrier to be considered one of the “big boys”
Brunettes not fighter jets
That’s a shame.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
What isn't well-known about Fry's last season(s)
is that he was undergoing treatment for prostate cancer but kept it a secret until well after he’d retired. Having been raised by oncologists, I can tell you that treatments for said disease don’t mix well the rigors of running a D-1 football team.
Fry was hardly derelict in his duty to the program but was perhaps guilty of being too prideful to know it was time to step aside earlier. To say that “it’s fairly obvious that Fry did not leave Iowa better than he found it” is absolute foolishness. Had Fry not been at Iowa it would have never been a job worth taking for a guy like Ferentz in the first place. Thanks to the foundation built by Fry (and it was completely his doing) Iowa is a Top-5 job in the Big Ten, which would place it pretty high on the food chain nationally.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Jun 25, 2010 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions
No Fry at Iowa, and I see two things happening: a) Iowa would still be bad and b) Lute Olson may have won a national championship there.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 25, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
The Olson speculation has always run rampant
but Fry bringing football success has always been a dubious reason for his leaving. There are many who simply think he saw greener pastures (ironic because everything in Tuscon is brown) at the U of A.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Jun 25, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
For one year
it might have been me, but I’m not sure….this guy’s better looking than me, but I think he’s dead…presently, I’ll take the exchange.
by DerryPharmer on Jun 22, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
"it’s fairly obvious that Fry did not leave Iowa better than he found it."
You must not be familiar with the state of Iowa football in the 60s and 70s.
by HeartOfHawkness on Jun 27, 2010 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Because of this:
he only made it to three Rose Bowls and never won one
And yet he has “legend” status.
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
If you took a team like Iowa from several 1-10 type seasons to a Rose Bowl in less than four years, you’d be really respected too.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
And there is still no way you’ll convince me Fry is more overrated than Bo.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
In Iowa.
I think the rest of the country remembers him as a really good coach at a school without a massive cache of prior football success. Kind of like Don James at Washington.
Got more suits than Jacoby and Meyers.
by Run Up The Score on Jun 22, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you're off base here.
He helped end the Big Two/Little Eight era of the Big Ten and established Iowa (in the 80s) as a legitimate third strong contender in the league. Considering how long OSU and Michigan had dominated the league, that’s not an insignificant accomplishment.
His legacy also encompasses the fact that he was the first coach to play a black player in the Southwest Conference (while he was at SMU), helping break some pretty massive racial barriers. It also encompasses his incredible coaching tree, which includes guys like Barry Alvarez, Bill Snyder, Bob Stoops, Kirk Ferentz, and Dan McCarney. Not many coaches (in fact, pretty much NO other coach) can say that they trained assistants that went on to be such accomplished head coaches elsewhere.
And the idea that he didn’t leave the program in better shape than what he inherited is moronic and indicative of nothing more than a surface level look at records. The program was DOA when he arrived in 1979. They hadn’t had a winning season in ages and hardly anyone cared. He changed all that and a few down years at the end of his tenure didn’t erase his accomplishments. The cupboards were bare when he left, but the foundation that Ferentz inherited was still solid.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
by RossWB on Jun 22, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The foundation Ferentz inherited
went 4-19 in his first two seasons, pretty much on par with where Iowa was pre-Fry.
Since that time, Ferentz’ worst record is a 6-7 team that narrowly lost the Alamo Bowl to the defending National Champs.
I think Fry was a great coach and an even greater coach of coaches, but his legend relative to his coaching prowess exceeds that of Bo.
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
Well...
went 4-19 in his first two seasons, pretty much on par with where Iowa was pre-Fry.
Again, there’s so much more to it than mere records. The program as a whole was in far, far better shape when Ferentz took over. When Ferentz took over the team was two years removed from going 7-5 and losing in the Sun Bowl, which followed years of 8-4 and 9-3 and trips to the Sun and Alamo Bowls. Within the same decade Iowa went to a Rose Bowl and had a 10-win season. A generation grew up knowing Iowa as a consistent winner/bowl team — it’s a hell of a lot easier to rebuild from a foundation like that.
Fry inherited a team that hadn’t had a winning season in almost twenty years and struggled to even go .500 most of the time. A generation grew up knowing them as nothing but losers. (Incidentally, that’s why it’s kind of precious when Penn State fans refer to the early ’00s as a “dark age” for Penn State football… three or four bad years is a blip; ten or twenty bad year is a true “dark age.”) The fact that he turned things around so rapidly was pretty incredible.
I think Fry was a great coach and an even greater coach of coaches, but his legend relative to his coaching prowess exceeds that of Bo.
Maybe this is a quibble over semantics or inane lists. It’s not as though he’s regularly listed among the best 5, 10, 15, or 20 best college football coaches of all-time. And beyond that, arguing whether or not one coach was “greater” than another seems like an epic waste of time and indicative of one’s own biases more than anything.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
by RossWB on Jun 22, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I sang the Iowa fight song while reading this post.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
"Maybe this is a quibble over semantics or inane lists"
uh, yeah
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
So I could've just said your list was dumb and been done with it?
Man, that would’ve saved some time.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I mean, what
did you imagine that I had some mathematical level proof that Hayden Fry is more overrated than Bo?
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
Cool. Now you just have to admit it was ridiculous to call Hayden Fry more overrated than Bo.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought you might have more than vague criteria and an over-reliance on records.
But no worries.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Let's ponder the ridiculousness of that statement
I relied on wins and losses. You know, actual results from actual football games. You relied on a feeling you have that people cared more and that there was a better “foundation.” Which of us is using “vague criteria?”
Not that, “his legend relative to his coaching prowess exceeds that of Bo,” isn’t vague and subjective; it is. It’s purely the unprovable (affirmative or negative) opinion of one man. That doesn’t mean it isn’t true, and you are certainly free to disagree.
Perhaps I could have dug through newspapers and websites and made a list of all of the positive articles written about each man and compared that to his number of wins, bowl wins, conference championships, or the ratio of his win percentage relative to the 20, 30, 40, or however many years prior. Maybe this would be some indication of legend relative to coaching prowess.
This certainly wouldn’t have been fair either, Bo Schembechler is dead, and got a lot written about him at the time of his passing. Not only that, but the readership of each paper and website is different too. mgoblog is not BHGP is not USA Today is not the New York Times is not the Columbus Dispatch, and setting equal one article in each is not reasonable.
In summation, lol internets.
Idle talk and hollow promises; cheating Judases; doubting Thomases
lol internets indeed.
I relied on wins and losses. You know, actual results from actual football games. You relied on a feeling you have that people cared more and that there was a better "foundation." Which of us is using "vague criteria?"
Which I did because, again, the “actual results” do not tell the full story.
But:
Not that, "his legend relative to his coaching prowess exceeds that of Bo," isn’t vague and subjective; it is.
This is the vague and subjective criteria that I was referring to.
And, fine, we can do the “agree to disagree” tango — it’s no skin off my back. I would be curious to know where you think Fry gets so much excess praise, though. As RUTS and Rambler pointed out, he’s largely a legend within Iowa. Outside of Iowa, he seems to be acknowledged as a very good coach who rebuilt multiple programs. As I said earlier, I don’t think anyone is putting him up there in the upper echelon of college football coaches.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Also, there seem to be two points of contention here:
1) Fry didn’t leave the program in better shape than what he inherited. This is just flat-out absurd.
As I said:
Again, there’s so much more to it than mere records. The program as a whole was in far, far better shape when Ferentz took over. When Ferentz took over the team was two years removed from going 7-5 and losing in the Sun Bowl, which followed years of 8-4 and 9-3 and trips to the Sun and Alamo Bowls. Within the same decade Iowa went to a Rose Bowl and had a 10-win season. A generation grew up knowing Iowa as a consistent winner/bowl team — it’s a hell of a lot easier to rebuild from a foundation like that.
Fry inherited a team that hadn’t had a winning season in almost twenty years and struggled to even go .500 most of the time. A generation grew up knowing them as nothing but losers.
You narrowed in a period of 2-3 years around the transition from Fry to Ferentz and concluded that since the records sucked, things were right back to what they had been when Fry took over. I disagreed and actually did cite something beyond vague assertions about foundations.
2) "his legend relative to his coaching prowess exceeds that of Bo"
This is far more vague and subjective and there probably is no good way of settling this point.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
RE: PSU's "dark age"
to me, that’s sorta the point, though. Especially in the years immediately following, but even now 5+ years later, there seems to be a lot of people who think of PSU as a lower tier football program, despite them being a top 10 all time program, and top 3 in the past 50 years (top 4 if you count Boise St). Heck, even if you just count the years since PSU joined the Big Ten, and of which a third are our “dark ages”, we’re still #11.
I attribute this somewhat to a lot of the “new media” being bloggers, and a good portion of bloggers went to college during, or since, those times. To this newer generation, Penn State is a lower tier team, but this perception is based off of essentially 4 seasons.
The fact of the matter is that in the modern era of college football (post WWII for my definition), Penn State’s worst period is a 5 year stretch that was book-ended by national championship runs in 1999 and 2005, and had a season in the middle where at least 2 of the losses came from very questionable ref calls (though the Capital One bowl was just a plain disaster). Those are our dark ages, unless we want to go back to the 1800s.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I dunno...
That “lower tier” business strikes me as the sort of hyper-sensitive attitude you see in most fanbases about something. Since returning to prominence in 2005, PSU seems to get treated like a near-elite program most of the time, which seems utterly appropriate for their current standing. Wins over PSU are still a big deal for virtually every team and they’re expected to beat all but 1-2 teams on their schedule most years.
The only “tier” of programs they’re below are the ones who’ve battled for national titles over the last few years: Ohio State, Oklahoma, USC, Florida, Texas, Alabama, and maybe LSU.
Any disrespect PSU seems to get is probably better attributed to the general lack of respect the Big Ten gets since Big Ten teams started regularly shitting the bed in high-profile non-conference games/bowls, beginning with Ohio State in the 2006 title game. Whatever griping PSU got (particularly in 2008, maybe) was more because of those high-profile failures than what they’d done in the early 00s.
And the “dark ages” bit… unless PSU fans say it tongue-in-cheek, it’s just absurd in any real sense. It just seems to speak of a lack of context; 4-5 bad years is not the same thing as a prolonged period of misery. Bully to PSU for never experiencing that (and all kudos to JoePa for keeping things running so smoothly for so long), but it’s going to sound a little silly compared to programs that have really been in the shit and know what that’s like.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
You know, SMA once said that Iowa was pretty close to becoming a basketball school before Fry took the job.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember as a kid
reading the article in the Big Peach about how he put in a weight room for the football team. Let that sink in for a while, prior to Fry Iowa didn’t really have a weight room for its football team.
He will always be revered in Iowa about what he did for the program, how he broke barriers and his coaching tree, not necessarily for his final win loss record. He was larger than life in his personality which is the only way to save the program.
He was interviewed during the game when Iowa dedicated Hayden Fry Drive and one of the booth guys asked about what he would do if one of his teams was playing as flat as the team on the field. He responded that he would try a deep bomb, just to get the juices flowing. Damned if the next play was a deep fade. He may not have had a great record but he did have a flair for making games exciting.
Too high? What do you mean too high?
by The Bacon Explosion on Jun 22, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Coach's Coach
Look how many head coaches have come out of the Iowa sytem under Fry. For that alone he should be a legend!
So I tried the Barbasol and Rotel dip and I was very dissapointed!
Spurrier has a National Title
and turned Florida into a winner. I really don’t think he is over hyped. He changed college football with his offense. It doesn’t work now because people have caught up to him, and he is at Carolina which is not the easiest place to win, he is trying to bring the program out of the stone age right now.
When in doubt, punt!
- John Heisman
by carolinaeasy on Jun 22, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Carroll and Spurrier have national championships. They deserve the love. Les Miles has a national championship, but he did it with Nick Saban’s players. I would agree he is vastly overrated.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
People love Pete Carroll? Is that like falling in love with a hooker?
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of Pete
I have a real problem with coaches like Pete Carroll who get their program in hot water then flee the burning ship like a rat when it comes time to pay the piper. The program suffers, and yet in 3-4 years when Pete fails in the pros (it will happen, again) he will come back to the NCAA and have no sanctions, no penalty’s at all.
When in doubt, punt!
- John Heisman
by carolinaeasy on Jun 22, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I like Pete Carroll...
as a coach. Awesome “big” game coach, not so great non “big” game coach. He should also be recognized for his work with youth in and around L.A. His “blind eye” as to recruiting, not so good.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
Ah, beer, my one weakness. My Achille's heel, if you will. - HJS
by Esteban d' Amur on Jun 22, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Les should compete every year
The quality of athletes in east Texas, and LA are pretty damned good, not to mention he plucks them out of Mississippi too. He hasn’t done anything with his own folks yet.
When in doubt, punt!
- John Heisman
by carolinaeasy on Jun 22, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Winning at USC
merely proves that you are not mentally retarded. It’s the only program that matters west of Texas, and the only time they ever compete for a recruit they really want is when they go head to head with BYU for a Mormon kid.
Cheating to win at USC and only coming out with one MNC is a giant fail.
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
As PSU fans..
we know having the best team doesn’t always equal MNC. The year PSU lost to them in the Rose Bowl, USC had the best team in the country.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
Ah, beer, my one weakness. My Achille's heel, if you will. - HJS
by Esteban d' Amur on Jun 22, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
The best team in the country
does not lose to that Oregon State team, period.
As for the Rose Bowl, Penn State was the better team for 7/8 of that game. The 2nd half of the 2nd quarter was an unholy slaughter, but the entire rest of the game, PSU was with USC and better.
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
by ckmneon on Jun 22, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
so does the best team instead lose to Ole Miss at home?
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
But...
the best team loses at home to Ole Miss?
Yes, PSU was better than USC for 7/8’s of the game, except they count the whole game.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
Ah, beer, my one weakness. My Achille's heel, if you will. - HJS
by Esteban d' Amur on Jun 22, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the point being made
was that USC wasn’t really leaps and bounds ahead of PSU, like everyone seems to have taken from the outcome of that game (and really most people probably turned it off at halftime). Penn State grumpied the bed in that 1/8 of the game, for sure, but that came down to essentially 2 secondary breakdowns and a fumble by our backup RB (who was in because our starter was injured).
I know this always comes across as “woulda coulda” fantasy and hindsight and all that, and I will still admit that USC was the better team that day, and still likely would have beaten us more often than not, but (at least in my opinion) those teams were a lot more even matched than most people give credit for.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree...
and didn’t mean to imply the USC was leap and bounds better. That is a classic what if game…if green doesn’t fumble on that screen, what might have been?
Never mistake effort for achievement.
Ah, beer, my one weakness. My Achille's heel, if you will. - HJS
by Esteban d' Amur on Jun 22, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
What if Maybin isn't offsides on that sack in the second quarter
I thought that was a huge momentum swing. He was offsides, but if that call slides, and it could have, might be a different sequence of events thereafter.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
there was no way that call slides
he lined up like half a yard offsides. however, i do believe he would of blew right past that left tackle and got to sanchez if he had actually lined up onsides
That was a huge play...
I remember thinking that after that USC would score on the drive.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
Ah, beer, my one weakness. My Achille's heel, if you will. - HJS
by Esteban d' Amur on Jun 24, 2010 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions
oh, i've been playing the "woulda coulda shoulda" fantasy
ever since the game ended. it was one of those games where you know you’re just as good as the other team, but you just had your head too far up your own ass and before you know it it’s a lot to a little
Well
USC didn’t exactly light the world on fire in the late 80’s and 90’s. So I think Pete deserves some credit for being a good recruiter and coach.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
Yeah, but...
Give me a wad of cash to spread around and a certain moral flexibility and I could be a helluva recruiter, too.
394–129–3
by mushdamma on Jun 22, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
also: SoCal location, weather, and girls
I think a trained monkey could have done as good a job (and perhaps it wouldn’t even need to be trained). I just worry that the monkey might have been just as lax about keeping the program under control. There would have been a lot of grumpy flying around, literally (is it still literally if the word isn’t the right literal word?)
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 23, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
What national championships does Carroll have?
The AP one from 2003? That one is sorta a technicality.
The AP/BCS one from 2004? Didn’t that get forfeited?
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
say what now?
So they have to forfeit every game from the 2004 and 2005 seasons, but still get to keep the championship? I didn’t know a team could be a champion without winning a single game all year.
I know the AP supposedly announced that they’d still count USC’s National Championships, but the AP is sorta irrelevant in college football championships now, since pretty much everyone outside of SoCal recognizes the BCS championship, for better or worse.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe i was thinking about the AP
but i would be sort of surprised if they lose their BCS championship. i don’t see it happening, but i’ve been wrong before
Nothing has been decided yet
Along with Bush’s Heisman trophy I believe both are under review.
No
Their wins are vacated, but the games were not forfeited. Their wins were not officially turned into losses (and wins for the other team); the games officially did not happen (according to the NCAA record books).
And I just can’t take the Coaches’ Poll title (what’s generally known as the BCS title) seriously in the BCS era after the 2003 debacle. #1 (in both polls) beat #4 (in both polls) by a larger margin than #2 (in both polls) beat #3 (in both polls). In any pre-BCS year, USC remains #1 in the Coaches’ Poll after that. If that had happened at any point in the regular season, USC would have stayed #1. It’s extremely likely that if Coaches’ Poll voters had not been compelled to vote the BCS title game winner #1, USC remains #1.
"the games officially did not happen"
ok, so I misspoke when I said forfeited. Either way, they still technically didn’t win a single game, so how does that still get them a national championship? I know it is still “under review” but any decision to allow them to keep the championship is just a mockery of college athletics and essentially backs up what USC’s president, AD, compliance coordinators, and fans have been saying all along: it was worth it to buy a championship.
As for the legitimacy of the AP and coaches (and any other) polls, they’re all a sham. Too much poll inertia, and weighed way to heavily based on the pre-season rankings (which are a joke in and of themselves). I could just as easy talk about my disdain of the AP poll after PSU has conspicuously dropped. Since there isn’t an official championship, the AP is welcome to grant their own, but in the BCS era, that championship is about as legitimate as PSU’s 1994 “NY Times Computer Poll” Championship (and yes, I know the AP is a tad bit more legitimate than that).
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 23, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Spurrier
He will always have the distinction of having won a MNC and Heisman as a player, then winning one and coaching one as a coach. That’s pretty awesome.
But if you take 1996 out of his resume (and he should wake up every morning and thank Texas for beating Nebraska in the Big 12 Championship that year), it’s a whole lot of good-but-not-awesome.
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
Who let Debbie Downer in here?!
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Look at Florida before he got there
Look at florida after he left. He took a non relevant team and made it relevant. I don’t think you could ever say he was overrated as a coach.
When in doubt, punt!
- John Heisman
by carolinaeasy on Jun 22, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
He introduced
the SEC to competent offensive football that included passing, something not seen in the league since what, Joe Namath at Alabama? For this he should get credit. He was, and is, a great coach.
All I’m saying is that in terms of legend to actual coaching ability ratio, I’d put him ahead of Bo Schembechler.
To know I can trust this fix of injustice time after time
The one point about Florida before and after Spurrier
is that the population explosion of that state corresponds almost directly with his tenure at UF (a 25% increase during the 90’s). I’m not saying recruiting alone wins games but those who follow CFB know what a built-in advantage a large recruiting base (especially in states where football can be played year-round) can mean to a school. I would be curious to see how Spurrier would have done having taken a job at, say Arkansas, about the same time the Florida job was on the table.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Jun 25, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Also 4 straight SEC championships is pretty impressive
When in doubt, punt!
- John Heisman
by carolinaeasy on Jun 22, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Can I still hate him? Cause I really, really do
"There are only three certainties in college football: all players will eventually leave, the ACC will be bad, and Joe Paterno ", Clay Travis, CNNsi Fanhouse
Plus Spurrier...
had some great quotes: Can’t spell Citrus without UT and FSU=Free Shoes U or something along those lines.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
Ah, beer, my one weakness. My Achille's heel, if you will. - HJS
by Esteban d' Amur on Jun 22, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Steve broker the Redskins. Or it least, made the first crack
"There are only three certainties in college football: all players will eventually leave, the ACC will be bad, and Joe Paterno ", Clay Travis, CNNsi Fanhouse
LOL! I've hated Spurrier since he was at Florida.
I always knew his coaching style and temper tantrums wouldn’t work in the pros! I was glad to see relegated to a team like South Carolina!
For the glory
best bsd article during this whole expansion discussion
great work mike
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Interesting article.
Personally, I used to see way more comments (mostly in jest, but still) about people wanting to dump Northwestern and get back to 10 than to dump Penn State and get back to 10.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I remember rumors flying around back then too that Northwestern was worried they would be kicked out of the league. I tried like hell to find an article with a quote in it to reflect that, but I came up empty.
$100 BSD bucks to anyone who can find a link.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
I recently learned about those rumors in comments either at BSD or Frank the Tank. I can’t find the posting, however, and I don’t think there was a link included. Sorry!
I also recall recently reading that rumor
but the fact that they voted FOR PSU makes me question it as a possible urban myth.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
"What to do with Penn State?"
I’m seeing that as a sign of respect. No one is saying “what to do with Michigan State?” Clearly where we are placed is important in how the divisions are divided up.
I think the last few years have done a lot to solidify ourself in the conference. It’s time to move on from the idea that no one cares about us or we’re the odd man out. Yeah, we’re kinda different from the rest of the league and may not totally fit in, but that can be a good thing too.
by speedomike on Jun 22, 2010 12:49 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
You got it Speedo
We are above the petty little rivalries like tOSU and Mich.
by Frank O'Brien on Jun 22, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes and no
MSU (and basically all the other teams) all have their “group of friends” that they have to stick with. MSU is getting lumped in with Michigan pretty much no matter what.
Now it is a sign of respect that they want to separate us from OSU and Michigan, because historically those are the three best teams (though Nebraska, Wisky, and Iowa are no slouches either, and are also up in the discussion of top 4-6 teams).
Still, I see it mostly as “well we need to protect this, and protect that, but Penn State doesn’t fit in anywhere”
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That doesn't really bother me though
Unless we somehow end up with Indiana and Illinois as our protected games, which I don’t see happening. Either we end up in a division with Ohio State and Michigan or we end up in a division with Nebraska. I’m fine with either. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s how I see this playing out.
Our role in this is to sit back and not worry about any rivalry being protected. Everyone else can worry about their axes and buckets.
I hope they don't protect our current fake rivalry,
I want to see that ugly trophy retired!
For the glory
After reading this post,
I’m not so sure I don’t want a piece of the Hoosiers on a regular basis.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
My issue is more
that in order to protect “the Game” there is a lot of support for conferences being essentially East/West, but with PSU stuck in the West for “competitive balance”.
F that. If they want competitive balance, then stick OSU and Michigan in the West, ship Nebraska to the East, and call everything else “even”.
But no, that’s not how they’ll do it (if they wind up splitting divisions for competitive balance). Everything will be even, and mostly geographically split, except PSU’s closest “divisional opponent” will be 1500 miles away.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Who cares about travel?
At the end of the day we’re still going to have the same 8 teams on the conference schedule that we’ve had for the last 15+ years except now we have Nebraska also. Yeah when you look in the division standings and see PSU in the west and Michigan and OSU in the east that will be a head scratcher, but I don’t see how geography really means anything here.
well not quite, but yeah mostly
and it depends on if they have a protected cross rival. As it is right now, our 2 protected games are against the closest and third closest (but only about an hour further than the second closest) teams.
Without doing too much extensive math (ie different combinations of divisions) and just splitting it East and West, our average driving distance to the East teams is about 460 miles, while our average distance to the West teams is 750 miles, so our average travel if we’re in the East would be ~570 miles (for 8 games)
Now if you switch us with say Northwestern for the “competitively balanced” type division that Mandel throws out in the link below, then our average travel would be ~670 for 8 games. Maybe an extra 100 miles for every game isn’t that much, and I’d probably be willing to do it myself, but it is still an increase of almost 20%.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 23, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, great article!
I graduated in ’91 and remember it well. I also remember going to SBS to write a note to one Mr. Bobby Knight. They pulled out this huge roll of paper and encouraged everyone to sign it and then they were going to ship it off to him. I wonder if he ever read it….
No he can't read....
but he did use the note as toilet paper…always the smug bastard.
by DerryPharmer on Jun 22, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Awesome research
Learned something new, too, in the google newspaper search. Thanks for all the links; it really read as a news article.
Crack is wac
I'm lovin the google archives
You can go back and read articles from the 1940’s. It’s an amazing view through the window of history. I’m looking back now and working on research for another history post I should have ready in a week or so.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
One of my favorite aspects of the work you do here is shed light on Penn State tradition and history because I always learn something. We’re a ‘traditional’ powerhouse, it’s nice to see that old tradition communicated through a new medium like blogging. In a way you’re preserving history by gathering that information and retelling it here where so many people can read it and retell it as they please, in this case it’s also an oral history because you shared in these experiences. TWSS.
Do you want the mustache on, or off?
Too bad.
Thanks
That’s kind of what I’m going for. I’ve always had a fascination with history. All kinds of history. And I get a sense with people of my generation that they are interested in knowing about the past, but they don’t know how to learn about it. So it’s been a personal mission of mine since starting this blog to create a record that future generations can find through a google search.
In fact, the reason I chose “Black Shoe Diaries” as the name of this blog is because I wanted it to serve as a record of history. Kind of like a diary.
Anyway, I’m getting all sappy now. History does that to me.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on Jun 22, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
well put
"I love it when a plan comes together!" Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith
by psu in the w-b on Jun 22, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoa! Look who popped up!
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome back, Casual Fan.
"Nothing turns me on like doe estrus." - ReadingRambler
by leeharvey418 on Jun 23, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
The 1993 Michigan Game
I forgot to mention, I had a link to an article somewhere I forgot to include in the post. That was the game where the officials kept stopping the game and threatened to penalize Penn State if the Beaver Stadium crowd didn’t stop making so much noise that the Michigan players couldn’t hear the snap count. I have never heard of a Big Ten game before or since where that threat was made.
For the life of me I can’t understand why PSU fans think the Big Ten refs were against us and in favor of Michigan when we first joined the conference.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
please share this link
I need a good laugh
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's a link
Skip to the bottom for notes on the game.
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1993/10/10-18-93tdc/10-18-93dsports-12.asp
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
Ahead of his time
Fayak just barely missed.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 23, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
also, when was the game with the terrible grass coming up in chunks?
They talk about a turf controversy in those notes at the end as well.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 23, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Not sure
It was right around that time period. I think it was against Rutgers in 92 or 93.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
I think it was the Rutgers game in 93
I remember it POURING down rain during that game. I stayed the whole time, even though it was wet and cold! Those were the days. :o)
For the glory
It was the Rutgers game
But it was a big deal because the next home game was against Michigan. If you search the BSD archives, there are links to a journal article about the causes, and I believe a turf major had some pretty interesting insight into the incident.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
wasn't that our very own Cairo
with the links and the turf knowledge?
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 24, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
i think we did get penalized during that game
"I love it when a plan comes together!" Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith
by psu in the w-b on Jun 22, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe
I just distinctly remember sitting in the student section. Michigan was backed up with their backs against the endzone. The students were going crazy. The Michigan quarterback set up under center, and then he turned around and looked at the official and put his hands in the air because he couldn’t hear. The ref came running in and blew the whistle, and then he came on the mic and warned the crowd.
It didn’t stop us from being loud. I checked Lou Prato’s encyclopedia and he says they were warned, but doesn’t say they were penalized.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
If I were in the crowd, that would probably only tempt me to be louder
even if it led to losing the game, I can only imagine the national humiliation Michigan would have suffered from having to complain about mean old Penn State being too loud for them (even wimpier than OSU forfeiting that game because PSU played too rough for them)
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 23, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
They did get louder
After the warning, the refs charged Penn State a timeout. After that the PSU players begged the crowd to be quiet. It was still pretty loud, but the refs eventually told Michigan to play through it.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
I remember that!
I was 8 rows from the end zone where we went 4 times up the middle from the 1 yard line and didn’t score!! That was painful!
For the glory
Thats is I remember somehting stopping the game.
My parents were at the game and my grand[arents and I were watching it on tv but had the radio paly by play on. We just laughed at how insanely loud it was
"I love it when a plan comes together!" Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith
by psu in the w-b on Jun 23, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I was there and even the blue hairs got loud. No one could believe that happened.
Joe was livid on the sideline.
Bo whining about crowd noise
Bo made a habit of complaining about crowd noise. I remember us getting the same threats at Ross-Ade during the 80s.
by BoilermakerMarc on Jun 27, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I had no idea all of this went on with Penn State
It must be a little bittersweet to be witnessing the lovefest going on with Nebraska.
I graduated from tOSU in 88. My dad’s family is from the Clearfield area so I have a couple of cousins who are PSU alums. As a result I’ve always been a big advocate of Penn State in the league. I remember jibing one cousin with “Welcome to the Big Ten” talk. Her response was something like, “No big deal. We’ll just have to get used to going to the Rose Bowl every year.” So yeah, initially I was hoping that you guys would get humbled a little… OK maybe a lot.
After speaking to folks back in Clearfield in the 90s, I got the impression that Penn State fans weren’t happy being in the Big Ten. My big fear was that PSU would dump us and join the Big East instead. Honestly, until about 7-8 years I still thought it might happen. Thank God (or should I be thanking Delaney instead) for the BTN. It’s definitely a great incentive for conference unity.
I just want everyone on BSD to know Big Ten fans know and appreciate what you’ve brought to the conference. Here’s hoping that PSU’s next 20 years bring the Big Ten more than a couple NC’s.
Thank for the gracious comment. I credit your Pennsylvania roots.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 22, 2010 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Ohio is a land of presidents, astronauts, and LeBron James
from Cinci to Youngstown to Steubenville to Defiance and everywhere in between save Ohio State, Ohio is awesome.
Idle talk and hollow promises; cheating Judases; doubting Thomases
LeBron James is a basketball player who will leave eventually because Cleveland stinks. Congratulations.
Youngstown is like Johnstown, but with less floodings and more shootings.
Defiance is a name for a Royal Navy cruiser, not a town.
I’m excited.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 23, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
All of Ohio’s presidents were middling. Except for Grant, who was a slightly above general with great sources. He was an awful president.
William T. Sherman was the only great Civil War soldier produced by Ohio. Pennsylvania produced Winfield Scott Hancock, John B. Reynolds, and Strong Vincent.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 23, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
resources
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 23, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t think of any great World War 2 submariners from Ohio.
Meanwhile, RADM Eugene B. “Lucky” Fluckey went to school in Mercersburg, PA.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 23, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
P.S. Major Dick Winters still lives in Lancaster County.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 23, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
above average
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 23, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong
Taft was a great President and better Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. The others were all better than Pennsylvania’s 1 (singular) president.
and Sherman > (Hancock + Reynolds + Vincent). In fact, I’m pretty sure Sherman is the reason why OSU feels the need to wet its pants when playing an SEC team; they feel guilty.
Idle talk and hollow promises; cheating Judases; doubting Thomases
Sherman burning the south = tOSU piddling against the SEC
Going to have to think on that one for a while. I’ve heard of Catholic guilt, Jewish guilt, but Sherman guilt…
BTW, Sherman was the man. I intend to give my first born the middle name, Tecumseh, in his honor.
Also, I want to thank the state of Pennsylvania for the word “yuns” which unfortunately is in my vernacular. Not only was I mercilessly teased in grade school for being a hillbilly but now I’m getting it from people in the NC. Mind you, these are the same people that add an extra syllable to everything. For example, the interjection “hey” is pronounced “heyey” down here.
Thanks Dad.
do you also leave out the verb "to be"?
such as “hey yinz, these floors need swept”?
Such anger!!!!
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 24, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
You're full of bull!
Full of it!
Winfield Scott Hancock was the best tactical divisonal commander in the Union Army! And he never went crazy like Sherman! Don’t you dare diss Hancock.
John B. Reynolds would have taken over command of the Army of the Potomac if he hadn’t been killed, and he would have done as well as Grant if not better. He was considered the finest Union officer in the east for good reason.
Strong Vincent was just an extra bonus.
A “great” president like Taft wouldn’t get blown out of the water in his reelection bid.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 24, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Taft was like the Earle Bruce to T.R.’s Woody Hayes. Both got canned.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 24, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Sherman
burned Atlanta to the ground, laughing all the while. He was laughing at the people of the Confederacy, not at the situation. He invented the Hate Train, then burned it to the ground for not loving America enough.
Sherman had more hate and more America in his pinky than Leman and Stanzi have in their whole bodies.
And Taft only lost his reelection campaign due to a split Republican Party, not due to any lack of personal popularity.
Idle talk and hollow promises; cheating Judases; doubting Thomases
Taft lost. A great President doesn’t lose a reelection.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 24, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Link for you Rambler
"I love it when a plan comes together!" Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith
by psu in the w-b on Jun 24, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks!
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 24, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Pennsylvania's number of and quaility of genrals was by far the greatest amongst the northern states,
I will give you Taft as a good justice but you are stretching it a bit. Also, why was the party split… TR felt he was not agressive enough against big business. Therefore his perception caused the split.
Lets not forget George Gordon Meade who commanded the Army of the Potomac for the longest stint and Alfred Pemberton who actually created the Union calvary into a decent fighting force. Lastly Sherman was great but he did face the B Team. Johnston and Hood were not the greatest of all southern tacticians
"I love it when a plan comes together!" Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith
by psu in the w-b on Jun 24, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you, sir.
I’d also add that Johnston or Hood mattered little; the Confederacy was on last legs at that point.
"Now we can no longer hold back. It will be a terrible war." - Emperor Jim Delany I
by ReadingRambler on Jun 24, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
My pleasure and I need to correct myself
Pleasonton not Pemberton who had family ties to PA
"I love it when a plan comes together!" Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith
by psu in the w-b on Jun 24, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
nice to hear this from a OSU fan.
"I love it when a plan comes together!" Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith
by psu in the w-b on Jun 23, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd be willing to let bygones be bygones
if people weren’t still treating Penn State like we’re the black sheep of the family. Stewart Mandel had an article today that put Penn State in his Western conference, which has a certain logic to it, but the Big Ten will never make a concession for Penn State, it always has to be the other way around.
I mean, look at Michigan State. They’ve been in the Big Ten for FORTY more years than us and they have less than half of our number of NCAA championships and Big Ten championships. We’ve basically been the anchor of Big Ten athletics in most non-revenue sports since we joined, and have been huge in Football (because without us, the third best team in the Big Ten since we joined is… Wisconsin? woo.) And we have an NIT championship in basketball, so it’s not like we haven’t contributed nothing there… as well as a final four appearance in Women’s basketball.
We need another eastern school sooner than later.
Putting PSU in the west is retarded
You can not plan a confrence with a teams entire history in mind. So what if NU, UM, tOSU & PSU have more wins in the last 100 years that the rest of the Big 10. Base it on the last 10 yrs and the combo of PSU, tOSU and UM fits nicely against NU, Iowa and Whisky.
It would be bull shit to make PSU fans drive that far to all the away division games. Id be pissed if they put the Huskers in the East.
So I tried the Barbasol and Rotel dip and I was very dissapointed!
I agree
There is absolutely no reason PSU, OSU and UM can’t be in the same division with Iowa, Wi, and UNL in the other. No reason other than poor Michigan has it tough having to play PSU, OSU and MSU every year. I’m sure OSU doesn’t care and I would be no one else in the conference would care but UM.
Also, I found this to combat an Ohio State troll, but it's relevant here:
Penn State has won 19 NCAA championships since 1993-94, the Nittany Lions’ first full season in the league. It’s more than double the number of the next two Big Ten schools on the list, Iowa and Minnesota, each has nine, according to Penn State’s sports information department.
What bothered me about Mandel's article
was that he threw out the old competitive balance thing as his number one criteria and then proceeded to stuff Ohio St and Michigan into pretty much the least competitive division he could come up with.
Right... he added up the seeds and each conference added to 39
The 12-Team Big Ten
“EAST” DIVISION “WEST” DIVISION
Ohio State (1) Nebraska (3)
Michigan (2) Penn State (4)
Purdue (7) Wisconsin (5)
Michigan State (8) Iowa (6)
Northwestern (9) Illinois (10)
Indiana (12) Minnesota (11)
I wonder who would come out of the east?
adding up the seeds is stupid, though
since it assumes that the difference in quality between each seed is exactly the same (and also assumes that a school like OSU is 12 times as valuable as a school like Indiana. There would really need to be some more in depth value ranking (using something like the team’s average Sagarin rating for the past X years), and make sure the divisions are as even as possible using that.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
If you look at a map like this ....
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=112056300789135687769.000489ab96a9a09b5abd9
It is obvious what is wrong with the scenario that Mandel proposes.
I think a better way to divide the divisions would be by the length of the school’s name. We could have all the schools with more than 25 characters in one division and the schools with 25 or less characters in the other. Obviously, I just picked that number at random & haven’t given any thought to which schools would be in which division. :)
Pennsylvania State University
Michigan State University
Northwestern University
University of Minnesota
University of Wisconsin
University of Nebraska
University of Michigan
Ohio State University
University of Illinois
Purdue University
Indiana University
University of Iowa
Born and raised in the shadow of Mount Nittany
Well... looks like we just figured out why they always call it
“THE Ohio State University”
looks like someone was feeling a little inadequate when stacked up against their neighbor to the east.
How does PSU get a 4 and UM a 2. Last 5 years, no way and UNL walking in as a 3, Iowa and Wi should both be higher.
Mandel's seeds
He ranked teams according to conference win % since 1993 (or since 1996 in Nebraska’s case). Includes up years and down years for every program.
I still think straight geography makes the most sense, both for rivalries and competitive balance. It give us a good variety of teams who appear in the CCG from both divisions. It wouldn’t always be somebody vs the OSU/UM winner.
Let's Go State!
by Gopher Broke on Jun 23, 2010 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions
why only since 1996 for Nebraska?
it just happens to conveniently drop Nebraska behind Michigan, whereas it would be Nebraska ahead of Michigan if the conference records from 1993 on were used.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 23, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't get it...
All I’ve ever seen or heard throughout Big Ten country is a universal respect for Penn State. Everyone loves Paterno. You have one of the greatest stadiums in the league. The culture is a great fit for the Big Ten. Absolutely nobody with half a brain believes that “the Big Ten should have shipped Penn State back to the Big East instead of expanding and adding Nebraska.”
This is a great site, but I never understood the “chip on the shoulder” mentality with regard to how you were perceived by the rest of the league. This article helps explain how some of that may have developed, but make no mistake, Big Ten fans think of Penn State as one of the marquee members of the conference and have for a long time.
"nobody with half a brain believes"
see, that’s one of the problems. Unfortunately, not every fan of the Big Ten schools actually attended said schools, and some of the most vocal (and oftentimes least educated) are the “local fans” of OSU and Michigan, it seems.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I don't care about their opinions either
just like I don’t care about the sound a vuvuzela makes…except with it drowns out everything else.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 22, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
There are always a few idiots out there...
but I’m originally from Michigan (30 minutes from Ann Arbor) and part of a solidly Michigan family (not myself any longer – I find Michigan fans condescending in general), and I haven’t heard anybody even hint that Penn State shouldn’t be in the conference. Sure, they hate you on gameday, but they like having the school in the league and know that it elevates the profile of the entire conference. Even the drooling townies know that having Penn State on the schedule boosts the image of the team. There are a few idiots, but my guess is that the vast majority of Big Ten fans at every school, including Michigan and Ohio State, are happy with PSU in the league.
Everyone loves Paterno
come back the week before tO$U game
"There are only three certainties in college football: all players will eventually leave, the ACC will be bad, and Joe Paterno ", Clay Travis, CNNsi Fanhouse
Or go to the Pitt Scout Board
Those guys were happy when he was in the hospital for dehydration.
"I'm colonel cool! And I'm the captain on this rocket to the stars!"
PSU...
has to be in the East with OSU and UM. It simply makes sense and would be the most competive set up.
Wisky, Nebraska and Iowa balance out the West.
If you put PSU in the West it would be like the ACC where no one outside of the conference would be able to name the teams in each division.
It doesn’t matter how many football games the SEC wins. We will always look down on you.
Totally true
10 years from now SEC fans would be saying, “Wait, PSU is in the west? Wha?”
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
Give the divisions
historic names like Norris or Smythe and take the geography out of the affiliation – I can think of one guy that would support the names “Jim” division and the “Delaney” division.
One man doing the work of 100's for the good of 1000's
Since when does the Big TEN care about making sense?
The conference name is Big Ten but there are eleven teams in the conference.
by catesinator on Jun 23, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously?
Huh… I wasn’t aware of that.
"Nothing turns me on like doe estrus." - ReadingRambler
by leeharvey418 on Jun 23, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Pearl Jam's...
first album was called Ten but it had eleven songs on it.
Think about it.
It doesn’t matter how many football games the SEC wins. We will always look down on you.
So lemme get this straight-
Ohio State’s quarterback is from Pennsylvania, and Penn State’s quarterback is from Youngstown, Ohio! Do I have that right, Herbie?
"Nothing turns me on like doe estrus." - ReadingRambler
by leeharvey418 on Jun 23, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Neither Young
"There are only three certainties in college football: all players will eventually leave, the ACC will be bad, and Joe Paterno ", Clay Travis, CNNsi Fanhouse
Wow, fail
neither young Pryor or young Clark play LaCrosse. So this is not interesting to him
"There are only three certainties in college football: all players will eventually leave, the ACC will be bad, and Joe Paterno ", Clay Travis, CNNsi Fanhouse

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