Will Michigan Ever Come Back?
The other day I was reading through some articles on the Big Ten meetings when I came across this article that caught my eye.
(Michigan Athletic Director Dave) Brandon, who replaced Bill Martinas Michigan athletic director in March, spent three days this week immersed in his first Big Ten spring meetings at Chicago’s swanky Sofitel Hotel.
He took part in policy discussions about scheduling and academics. He listened to Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany’s update on expansion (though that wasn’t formally on the agenda). And he studied his peers as they went about their jobs.
"I’m learning," Brandon said. "I still haven’t run into issues that are completely foreign to me, but I respect the position that you have when you’re new. So I come in and I’m in listen mode and ask a lot of questions, and I certainly have opinions, and when I do, I state them.
"But particularly coming to the first meeting, this was more of a selfish act on my part because I get to learn from a lot of people who have been to a lot more of these meetings than I have."
As I read this passage something struck me: My, how the mighty have fallen.
It wasn't that long ago that some Big Ten teams, including Joe Paterno and Penn State, were pushing to move some games past Thanksgiving to shorten the layoff between the end of the season and the bowl games and to take some of the spotlight off the SEC and Big XII as they held their conference championship games. But Michigan and Ohio State were dead set against it to preserve their rivalry they way they wanted it: the marquee conference game with a noon start on the Saturday before Thanksgiving. The Big Ten has always been about the Big Two and the little nine. Not so anymore.
I always pictured these Big Ten meetings with Jim Delany standing up in front of the room talking to the group. All of the coaches and athletic directors from the member schools sit at their table with a bowl full of rock candy and a pitcher of ice water sitting in a puddle caused by the condensation on the side. All of the tables face the front toward Delany, except for two tables oriented behind him on either flank facing the rest of the tables. At those tables sat Michigan and Ohio State. And as Delany spoke to the group, every once in a while the Michigan or Ohio State athletic director would clear their throat a bit after Delany makes a point. Delany would turn around and either get a nod or a shake of the head, and then he would either retract what he just said or repeat it as if the Pope had just blessed it.
But given in the quote above is a different image. It is the image of the Michigan athletic director unsure of himself. Not wanting to speak up. Not wanting to rock the boat. He's not fully aware of his place in the conference. He doesn't see himself as the agenda-setter. Nobody handed him a manual with instructions to follow when he took over for Bill Martin. He's just along for the ride like everyone else.
And what a ride he's on. Is there any program in American that has seen more turmoil than Michigan in recent years? It seems like ever since the loss to Appalachian State the program has spun out in the ditch and can't get out. Lloyd Carr walked away from it, and though Michigan fans got the guy they wanted in Rich Rodriguez, they were initially rejected by two or three other guys including Les Miles and Greg Schiano. Rodriguez has been surrounded in scandal from the moment he stepped on campus. From the way he ditched his alma mater West Virginia, his shady real estate investments, and most recently the NCAA violations and self-imposed sanctions, Rodriguez has brought one distraction after another. They have suffered two horrible seasons with multiple players defecting, and numerous alumni speaking out against the way the program is being run. When you look at him these days, like in the picture above, he just looks like a broken man, coming to work and collecting his paycheck. Dreading it and wincing every time the phone rings. Wishing everyone would just leave him alone.
I don't envy Dave Brandon these days. If Michigan does not show some progress and go to a bowl game this year, the calls to fire Rodriguez will be too loud to ignore. And given how difficult it was to find a replacement the last time, how many coaches do you think will look at the Michigan job as a dream job? Rodriguez has completely gutted the roster and replaced it with a bunch of tiny guys that can run fast. It may work great in the Big East or the MAC, but that stuff don't fly in the Big Ten as he's finding out. The next head coach will have to build up that roster from the ground up after RichRod is done with it.
And not to mention the facilities at Michigan. When I traveled out there in 2007 I was quite frankly shocked at how junky Michigan Stadium was. The restroom facilities were pathetic, and I've seen better concession stands at the county fair. They don't even have lights to host night games. Yay for tradition I guess. Though they are making some improvements to the stadium, most of them are just bandaids that are about ten years too late.
Even the Michigan blogs are no fun to read these days. They used to be full of Hail to the Victor bravado, but now they read like empty shells. They must get tired of having to defend Rodriguez from his critics every day. They lash out at the press and former players that speak out against their coach. They call the reporters hacks, and the the players are lazy and couldn't handle the commitment to the program. In a lot of ways I feel bad for them. From covering Penn State basketball I can tell you it's no fun to cover a loser, but they do it anyway. I admire their loyalty. They are the true fans, so I guess I see why they still defend Rodriguez. In many ways drinking the Kool Aid is the only way to keep your sanity.
The Michigan brand is stale. Just thinking of the state of Michigan you think of rusted factories falling apart as people exit to make a better life. It seems as though the Michigan Wolverines haven't been able to escape that, as they too are falling apart one rusted piece at a time. Maybe they can turn things around eventually, but right now it seems like they are heading in the wrong direction with no end in sight.
I hope Michigan does come back. Big Ten football is more fun when Michigan is one of the bullies on the block. But right now I don't see it happening any time soon.
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Oh yes, time for more glorious, sweet, delicious Michigan trolls.
All hail Mike!
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
Well
I’ve been too busy to post lately, so I figured you guys deserved some red meat for this Friday afternoon.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
Well written and well played, good sir.
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
by ReadingRambler on Jun 4, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Woo Hoo, Michigan Sucks and will suck for the foreseeable future!! I agree!
And I couldn’t be happier! This article was better than eating pie, except the Pecan Pie my daughter gets from the Mennonite woman at her work. Mmmmmmmmmmm
Disagree about their blogs.
Was it RUTS that linked to that excellent commentary on dong punches yesterday?
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
That's nothing.
I linked to this over at BHGP and I’ll shamelessly do it here, too. Maize n Brew Dave absolutely killed on the expansion topic today.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Jun 4, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for that.
Not quite as LOL as the dong punching, but it was pretty great.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
As much as I
dislike having my privates pummelled, I’m sorry I missed the dong punch. How about some linkage?
One man doing the work of 100's for the good of 1000's
Took me a few to find this.
don’t read this if you’re in a place you can’t laugh out loud.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
I hate Michigan, but to wonder if they'll be back
after two years of bad is silly. Texas had over a decade of crap, Oklahoma close to that. Alabama, Nebraska and Ohio State (oh, and Penn State) had both been underwhelming for stretches than they’re used to in the very recent past. Let’s see this article again in 5 years and then it might be interesting.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
This is true
But then, schools like Michigan State, Syracuse, Texas A&M, Notre Dame, and Army used to be top notch. Where are they now?
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
Except Notre Dame
Michigan has been successful far longer than any of the other schools on that list (and even ND has been much less so for almost 20 years) and has more resources. The key for Michigan is that they bridged their success into the modern (read: ESPN/cable-driven) era of college sports. To have established themselves within that model is a huge factor for them.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Jun 4, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You might be right
They may come back. Like I said, I hope they do. Just right now, on the path they are on, I don’t see it.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
The one thing I think we can agree on
is that RichRod will not be part of any success this school may have. At this point, I don’t even think it’s the system but him that is ultimately the problem.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Jun 4, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
It's also the system.
I was THRILLED when I heard he was coming to the Big Ten. His version of the spread (really, any that isn’t adaptable) will not work in the Big Ten.
I know, I know, but PSU runs the Spread HD. No, we run a power I with a few odd shotgun formations and a few Ace lineups. We don’t run Purdue’s O.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
How about the defense?
I can’t wait to see the 3-3-5, run by Greg Robinson, crash and burn in the Big Ten.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
GERG actually runs a 4-3 of sorts IIRC. RichRod’s meddling was the only thing that kept the 3-3-5 around.
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
by ReadingRambler on Jun 4, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
The GERG
certainly doesn’t help matters; that’s like Obama hiring Greece’s financial minister to run the Fed.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Jun 4, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh god, Mike... PLEASE
I’m so excited for that. If all the pundits are correct (I don’t think they are) that we’ll be completely useless throwing, I can’t wait to see that shitstain of a defense go up against Royster with 6 guys in the box.
If they keep it and they don’t stack the box, I could see Royster getting 175+, Green 100+ and 50 between Dukes and Redd (assuming no redshirt).
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
I've said before I'm not an X's and O's guy
But what little football know how I do have, this formation makes me laugh, and I really don’t know what it will look like.
It really seems like GERG is fishing with dynamite in response to scUM’s secondary getting TORCHED last year by everyone. “We got passed on for 300 yds/game last year? I know, let’s put everyone back there this year so that can’t happen again!”
The 3-3-5 can work against the spread. But whatever.
Formations, to me, aren’t as important as good players and fundamentals. Does that sound like Michigan to you?
"I'm day-to-day with hurt feelings." - Chris Pronger
by ReadingRambler on Jun 7, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed.
If you’d asked me ten years ago which is the most dominant program in California I would have said UCLA. If you’d ask me which school is sliding into perennial mediocrity in spite of it’s proud tradition, I would have said USC.
Funny how things change.
And I bet you'll be right
in another five years.
I'll only be happy with this if USC gets the death penalty
The past decade of sack-less NCAA violation enforcements, leading to nothing but success without penalty for USC while they kept on playing dirty leads me to want nothing less than bombing them back to the stone age.
Unfortunately
I agree completely. The two worst years in program history is still only two years.
Let’s see Rodriguez torpedo another season, and then have another coach come in and flounder for a few more years. That would be real joy.
while I agree that 2 years is nothing, and they can come back
this isn’t like the down eras of the teams you mention in the way that RichRod gutted the program to install his new system. It is sorta like he went into a big sturdy mansion that may have needed a few upgrades, and decided to gut the thing, take out all the old oak beams to put in cheaper, lighter pre-fab construction, only he didn’t factor in the environmental conditions (the rest of the Big Ten teams) and unfortunately the materials he used were just too weak. In order to fix this mess, they’ll have to re-gut the place and start from scratch, and that’ll take a few years.
Of course, this is all under the assumption that RichRod’s spread system won’t ever be successful in the Big Ten…we haven’t honestly seen what he can do with a roster full of all his recruits yet.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 4, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll extend your arguement to add...
that when you enter a new era – New AD and new Football coach – and the first two years of the new era are pretty much the worst two years your school has experienced in a half century, you start looking and hoping to see the bottom of the hole.
If you can’t see the bottom of the hole and you wake up on Monday morning to find out that Lehman Brothers declared bankrupcy and Bank of Freakin America bought Merrill Lynch, it can seem like the bottom is a long way down.
Of course, in reality, you’re only an inch away from the bottom it’s just too dark to see it.
One man doing the work of 100's for the good of 1000's
Michigan can come back
but not with Richie Rich. Like you said his system is all wrong for the Big 10.
I just call him Michigan's coach.
That way the right people get insulted.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
by jesse. on Jun 4, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Brilliant.
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
by ReadingRambler on Jun 4, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
nice
I'm sorry, Bruce. These boys get that syrup in 'em, they get all antsy in their pantsy. Captain O'Hagan
by psu in the w-b on Jun 4, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Will Michigan come back?
I’d argue (and it’s been argued here before) that every year Rodriguez stays adds another 1-2 years of rebuilding for whoever succeeds him. His rinky-dink style of play has been an abject failure thus far (excluding putting up big points on the likes of Indiana, Purdue and Delaware State), yet every recruiting year brings more of the same: a 3:1 ratio of slot receivers to linemen. And I won’t even bother to get into the defense…
More importantly, in this “what-have-you-done-for-me-lately?” world, how many 17-18 year old kids care about Michigan’s “tradition” anymore? Bo isn’t walking through that door. Neither is Lloyd. All these kids see is a teflon, overmatched headcase of a coach fail miserably. THAT is the current Michigan “brand”: failure.
But hey, I’m sure that not all is lost. Maybe some of these young guys like Devin Gardner will stick around and flourish under a new regime? I mean, hey…it worked out for Ryan Mallett, right? Oh…..
Long story short, adaptation is the key to survival. Will Rich realize this? Heck, even JoePa did at the end of the dark years. Or is it just too little, too late?
"We heard all that talk all week about the SEC and their speed, but we knew personally that they weren't nearly as tough as us."
-Tony Hunt
Michigan can succeed with RichRod. I even believe they can succeed with that offense. They put up points on Iowa, Penn State two years ago, and even had a little momentum against OSU last year.
What Michigan cannot do is try to act like they can play wide open offensive football with a GERG coached defense. That will not work. Michigan has always been at their best with good defenses, and they haven’t won any championships with this current brand of football.
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
by ReadingRambler on Jun 4, 2010 12:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
After Syracuse
I just cannot imagine why they hired GERG, you couldn’t screw up coaching much more than he did in Syracuse.
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils
he had some success before as a D Coordinator
some people just aren’t meant to be head coaches.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 4, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't think of anyone that couldn't be a head coach if they tried REAL hard. Oh wait...

@EpicTripod
Black Shoe Diaries
Success With Honor
by Jeff Junstrom on Jun 4, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
that would imply trying real hard
and not just SAYING you were good
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 4, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I recall him as coaching a 30thish defense at Texas with Texas’s talent for one year, doing well with talent in Denver in late 90s, sucking without talent, and sucking at
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
by ReadingRambler on Jun 4, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
sucking at Kansas City for one year with the 32 defense. Ask Cairo what that means.
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
by ReadingRambler on Jun 4, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
one year? Try many.
…and now Charlie Weis is our OC. I’m afraid to travel on the road to Arrowhead Stadium with all of the washouts there.
"32 Defense" is one of my favorite football jokes now.
"When it’s third-and-10, you can take the milk drinkers and I’ll take the whiskey drinkers every time" - Max McGee
by Run Up The Score on Jun 4, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I love Cairo's insight on things PSU related
but I think I love his Chiefs rants more. 32 Defense was definitely a classic
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 4, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
great write up
I don’t care if they come back, I am happy with Iowa replacing them as a top football school in the B10, along with PSU/OSU/Wisc. The B10 just needs a group of good teams that win games (bowl), it doesn’t matter who as long as we are one of them.
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils
There ain't no schadenfreude like offseason schadenfreude
I love this stuff. I drink it up like Eli’s milkshake. I wish nothing but at least a decade of Michigan football being bogged down.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
I'd be ok with
5-6 years of Michigan pain – just so their hurt is a little worse than our 2000- 2004 run.
USC on the other hand – I wish them a lifetime return to their 1990’s glory.
One man doing the work of 100's for the good of 1000's
The stadium sucks....
I was there in 2005 (tears well up just thinking about it). All the PSU students who made the trip were standing on the bleachers like we did in Beaver Stadium….except the bleachers were made out of wood. The ushers there kept trying to make us get down, but as they walked on, we would just get right back up on them. I personally witnessed at least 2 bleachers break that day……a moral victory I suppose.
I'm glad we broke some of their crappy old stadium that day at least
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
RichRod's ousting
I hope it coincides with JoePa’s retirement because I would LOVE to have Mike Barwis as the strength and conditioning coach at Penn State. Barwis is a Philadelphia native and loves PSU. However, I don’t see any major coaching changes until JoePa’s tenure is done…and hopefully that won’t be for another few years.
Michigan will not come back without significant changes
The reason, simply put, is recruiting. Michigan is not a great high school football state. It’s not terrible, but it’s nowhere close to the likes of Pennsylvania, Ohio, Florida, California, or Texas. Nor is Michigan close to the lesser HS powerhouse states like Louisiana, Georgia, or New Jersey. Nowhere close.
Adding to the trouble for Michigan is the fact that Michigan State competes for the Michigan recruits that are home grown. Generally speaking, Penn State does not compete with Pitt and Temple (for any recruit PSU really, really wants) and Ohio State does not compete with Cinci or the MAC. Texas may compete with TAMU and Tech and such, but Texas is also a much larger state. The same can be said for USC and its little brothers like UCLA.
Some will say something to the effect of, “yeah but Michigan recruits NATIONALLY LOL.” This can work, but only when recruits from outside the state actually see your program as attractive. Nobody worthwhile is attracted by a losing program with a coach on the hot seat and NCAA sanctions looming.
This is why other “we recruit nationally,” former powerhouses like Notre Dame and Nebraska have yet to return, if indeed they ever do. It only takes a couple down years before a program loses a significant amount of its national appeal, which leads to poorer recruiting, which leads to more losing, which leads to less national appeal, etc.
This is why being in a great HS football state is so important. Penn State and Ohio State can go through a down period and return with relative ease because there will always be an abundance of great players who grew up dreaming of playing for them regardless of the recent success of the program. The same cannot be said of Michigan.
Can Michigan return? Yes. Building a national powerhouse in a mediocre HS football state can be done two ways, which I call the Alabama and Kansas State ways.
The Kansas State way is: 1)Make a great coaching hire and commit to that coach, 2)Schedule patsies as if you were out to make Texas Tech blush, 3)Fill your roster with JUCO transfers and the classic “overlooked athletes.” It’s far easier said than done, but it can be done.
The Alabama way is: 1)Abandon any scruples you once had and just win, baby. Hire the greatest players coaches money can buy, and treat academic requirements as more of a gentle suggestion to be aware of than a real rule to be followed. Success ensues.
Neither way is the Michigan way, and that’s why I say significant changes are required before Michigan returns.
No alarms and no surprises please.
by ckmneon on Jun 4, 2010 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
summed it up about as perfectly as I can tell
so for that you get a +1
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 4, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Well said.
Alabama (and the SEC in general) also use a vicious amount of oversigning, churning through players to make sure their roster is as solid as possible.
you missed a good fight with the trolls over ssss eeee ccc speeeeed i mean academic prowess
I'm sorry, Bruce. These boys get that syrup in 'em, they get all antsy in their pantsy. Captain O'Hagan
by psu in the w-b on Jun 4, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
actually our football team doesn't cheat
we just sacrificed a couple hundred virgins to get where we are now
after the Utah loss the pagan route has seriously improved our football luck
also? pay replay refs – this will save your ass more times than you know
My body is a temple
by Wallacewade04 on Jun 4, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
"pay replay refs – this will save your ass more times than you know"
we’re in a thread about michigan. Believe us, we know!
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
The Alabama Way
And in between winning national championships, be willing to put up with a few years of NCAA sanctions. Looks like Michigan is willing to go down that road.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
So the michigan thread turns into an Alabama bash
what exactly did we do to piss of Penn State?
My body is a temple
by Wallacewade04 on Jun 4, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
If you think this is an Alabama bash, just hold your horses.
Pardner.
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
by ReadingRambler on Jun 4, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
you kids and your "trash talk"
My body is a temple
by Wallacewade04 on Jun 5, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
No
there was no cheating involved in our National Championship and our problems have never been a culture of buying players or breaking NCAA rules
shit head boosters paying high school coaches and college age kids making stupid mistakes have been our problems
My body is a temple
by Wallacewade04 on Jun 5, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Good description of the Big Ten meetings.
That’s what we call “painting a word picture.”
Eat more pie.
by Illegal Formation on Jun 4, 2010 2:19 PM EDT reply actions
Hey now...
South Carolina never won a title!
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
Michigan will be back
and likely in short order. Here’s why:
1. Academics. As much as I hate Michigan, it is a good school, particularly its graduate programs. More importantly, it has a reputation as a very good academic school. If you’re a great athlete and you want to go to a school that has great sports programs (not just one sport) and great academics, your options are: Stanford, Michigan, UVA (maybe), UNC, and UCLA. That’s probably it. And really, I think Stanford and Michigan are head and shoulders above everyone else.
2. $$$$$$ It makes the world go round, and Michigan’s got plenty of it. They have the fourth biggest budget for all athletic programs of any school, behind only OSU, Texas, and Virginia. At $85 million per year, there a full $15 million above tenth ranked Penn State.
3. Tradition. Michigan’s got it in boatloads. They’ve won more football games than any other school. At 877 wins, they’re more than 30 wins ahead of second place Texas. (interesting side note, we’re 7th with 812 lifetime wins, and just behind sixth placed Alabama’s 813; just another cool take on that game.)
4. The cyclic nature of sports, particularly college football. As we all know, football programs have highs and lows. Michigan is in the depth of their dark years, but they’re going to come back out of this soon enough. They’ve got too much damned money and tradition.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Your #1
makes me dizzy.
Eat more pie.
by Illegal Formation on Jun 4, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
hmmmm
Notre Dame has money and tradition too. Just sayin’
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on Jun 4, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Also Harvard and Yale
When will they cycle back in?
Eat more pie.
by Illegal Formation on Jun 4, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
good point
but I think that unlike ND (and Army, Navy, Harvard and Yale), tradition is not quite as important. As opposed to all of those schools, Michigan has a given recruiting ground. High school football in Michigan football might not be the same as Florida, Texas or the WPIAL, but it ain’t chopped liver either. And if you’re an all-state football player in Michigan, scUM is on your short-list.
The benefit of being a public school is that you’re have “default” recruits. ND had that for catholics at one point (but I’m not sure if that’s still true).
And, while I’m sure Michigan doesn’t let just anyone into the school, they don’t have the same standards for athletes that ND (and Army, Navy, Harvard, and Yale) has (have).
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Academic standards for athletes
You give ND, Service Academies, and Ivy League schools far too much credit.
No alarms and no surprises please.
yeah
Harvard and the Naval Academy will let anyone with a fast 40 time and a strong arm in [sarcasm].
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Yes, they will,
especially if it helps them meet their AA obligations. I’m not saying they’re the SEC, but I’m not putting any of them on a PSU / jNW level either
No alarms and no surprises please.
excuse me?
you think penn state has more rigorous standards for letting in athletes than Harvard and the Naval Academy? Last time I checked you didn’t need a letter of recommendation from a high-ranking government official to be admitted into penn state.
I’m a penn state alum and I love the school. I love “winning with honor” and everything else that JoePa’s done. But I’m not blind to the fact that other schools have more rigorous standards.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Take it from somebody who applied to and got into the Naval Academy
Getting a recommendation from a Senator, Congressman, or military officer is painfully easy, especially if you are an athlete the school is recruiting, since they can just have an alumni write it.
The Austin Scotts of the world are the bottom of what PSU will take. He’d be run of the mill on the Naval Academy’s team.
No alarms and no surprises please.
I know that it's simple to get those letters
but they’re emblematic of the fact that it is a rigorous admissions process.
I love Jimmy Kennedy. One of my favorite Penn Staters of all time. There is no way that someone with his background (his mother and brother both smoked and dealt crack), was being admitted into Army, Navy, Harvard, Yale or whoever the hell else.
I think it’s to Penn State’s and Joe Paterno’s credit that we recruited Jimmy Kennedy and the results speak for themselves. But the fact is, it is more difficult to gain admission to the military acadmies and the ivy league than Penn State.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
in general, yes
and maybe with sports in mind, too, but even the Ivies lower their standards for athletes. I have a bunch of friends, and relatives of friends, who have been recruited/offered by the Ivies (not sure about the academies) that didn’t have near the grades to get in without their athletic prowess (and this wasn’t even always for the big sports)
Not sure how low they’d dip, and perhaps Penn State dips lower, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the level was close.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 4, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
you're definitely right about this
but it’s still tough, particularly for the ivies.
If, for example, you need a 1500 and a 3.9 to get into Yale as a student, then you likely need a 1200 and a 3.3 to get in as a student-athlete. So the standard is dropped, but the standard is still nevertheless high.
I didn’t mean to say that these schools don’t lower their standards for athletes—of course they do. I just meant that the lower threshold for athletes is higher than Penn State’s thresshold for athletes which is higher than most of the rest of the country’s threshold for athletes.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I know for certain
MIT will take the kid with 1400 SATs who was a two-time all-conference tight end over the grade-obsessed student with a perfect score, every time. I don’t think they’d even call it “lowering our standards” — admissions departments look at high school kids and see a resource allocation problem. The linear value of grades breaks down for them at the extreme of the Bell curve, and excellence in an unrelated field serves as a stronger predictor for collegiate success. This is also why Myron Rolle was such an attractive candidate in the Rhodes committee’s eyes.
Yes, and um...
I’d hardly call taking a kid with 1400 SATs “lowering their standards”.
But I have seen evidence of Ivies giving scholies to athletes who would not get admitted on their academic merits at all.
Harvard and Yale
Not the same. The Ivy league stopped offering scholarships to athletes years ago.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on Jun 4, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
"Athletic Scholarships"
There are plenty of ways around this and the Ivy League takes full advantage. The requirements for a “need based” scholarship are not particularly low, and the minimum requirements for an “academic scholarship” are not particularly high.
No alarms and no surprises please.
Just meant that
academics+tradition+money does not necessarily equal success.
Michigan may become the Harvard of the West, but in athletics, not academics.
Eat more pie.
by Illegal Formation on Jun 4, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I rec'd it
just b/c I hate that “Harvard of the West” bs so much.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Maybe they could become
the “College of William & Mary” of the West?
One man doing the work of 100's for the good of 1000's
And, as much as I hate to admit it
I think that ND sitting outside of the top 25 is coming close to an end. They landed a good one with Brian Kelly. And if they do join the big11, they’re going to go back to national championship contenders in short order.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Now I'm hungry...
would you mind serving me a burger?
One man doing the work of 100's for the good of 1000's
I can't think about "short order" and "ND" without thinking about Charlie Weis
Imagine how badly the fast food joints in South Bend must be hurting?
by Cairo on Jun 4, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Disagree on "if they do join the big11"
Kelly has never had a defense, and his offense has been shut down handily whenever it played a D better than Pitt’s. There’s less value there than in a Rod of Dick.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
he's also had a disadvantage with the players he's recruited
which does make it hard to tell if it is the players, the scheme, or the coach whenever there’s failure or success.
Basically what I’m saying is: while his offense may have been shut down handily whenever playing a D better than Pitt’s, it isn’t like his offensive players are at a caliber that SHOULD be routinely beating D’s better than Pitt’s.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 4, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I have my doubts
#1—This will get you a handful of good players, but not nearly enough to make a good team in a good league
#2—This will help only if you are willing to spend it on facilities and coaches, and if spending on coaches equates to quality coaches, which is not always the case (see Notre Dame)
#3—This helps only if it translates to recruiting success, and the farther removed a school is from success in terms of time, the less and less it matters. Army, Notre Dame, Nebraska, Pitt, Minnesota, a handful of Ivy League and HBCUs have all had Michigan-level tradition at one time, and none have been competitive in, let alone won, a BCS bowl game since the time when the current crop of recruits were too young to care.
#4—See #3 and my explanation on why the Penn States, Ohio States, and Southern Cals of the world can go through down periods and come back with relative ease. Michigan is not so fortunate.
No alarms and no surprises please.
the won 11 games and played in the rose bowl in the 2006 season
they won they alamo bowl in 2007.
They’ve had two bad years, both with a brand new coach, and were better last year than the year before.
The dark years at Penn State included four sub .500 records in five years and we came back just fine.
Let’s wait and see if they fire RichRod before we say that they’re dead. If they’re not throwing in the towel on him yet, I think its fair to say that he’s still got a chance to bring them around.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I dunno
Half the fanbase didn’t like him the day he signed with Michigan. You will never turn those people around. And with each loss more and more people turn on him. Short of winning a national championship I don’t see how he earns the respect of the entire fanbase.
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
by BSD on Jun 4, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't disagree with you
but the fact that a lot of the fanbase will never support the existing coach doesn’t mean a program is destined for long-term mediocrity.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Michigan relies heavily on recruiting in Ohio
Keep in mind Michigan sucked before Schembecler, and he was from Ohio. Every Michigan coach thereafter was a Schembecler guy.
Tressell has Ohio on lockdown right now, and if he stays at Ohio State another 15 years, he could kill Michigan.
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
by jesse. on Jun 4, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
this is the best argument i've heard yet
for Michigan being in real trouble.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Very true.
The biggest reason for Earl Bruce getting canned was his inability to keep Bo from dominating Ohio recruiting.
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
by ReadingRambler on Jun 4, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Cooper was in the same boat against Carr
out recruited and out coached. OSU fans hated Cooper with about the same passion as a lot of UM fans now dislike the michigan coach. Cooper still lasted 10 years but never was as bad as UM is now.
Out coached, not out recruited.
Seriously, Cooper’s teams in the mid to late 90s were loaded. They killed anyone and everyone who wasn’t from Michigan or the SEC. Dan Wilkinson, Andy Katzenmoyerrrrrrrrrr, Terry Glenn, Orlando Pace, David Boston, Joe Germaine, Eddie George, and on and on and on.
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
by ReadingRambler on Jun 5, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Cooper had great talent, but did not lock down Ohio
For Penn State, Michigan, and Notre Dame, it was still business as usual in Ohio: sure, OSU may have a small advantage, but OSU was not guaranteed every Ohio recruit it really, really wanted. These days, if OSU badly wants an Ohio recruit, other schools may as well forget about him.
No alarms and no surprises please.
Well, I wouldn't argue that.
But he wasn’t really out recruited like Bruce.
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
by ReadingRambler on Jun 5, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
So...
“…we’re 7th with 812 lifetime wins, and just behind sixth placed Alabama’s 813…”
Assuming both teams beat their week one cupcakes, if Penn State beats Alabama this year we will also tie them for #6 all-time wins?
Now it is too good to be true.
Not only that, but the belt
Assuming Alabama wins week one against San Jose State, the all-time College Football Title belt will be up for grabs.
No alarms and no surprises please.
Who has more, Pitt or Alabama.
Isn’t like 17 to 16 in favor of Alabama?
Pitt currently has both a better football and basketball team than Michigan.
http://collegefootballbelt.com/index.htm
I go off of that site, which does sync up with the “first game ever played” belt with that 1971 Nebraska team. Overall, I don’t know who has the most belt reigns.
The 2nd to last time PSU won the belt: 1986 against Alabama, when PSU beat #2 ranked Alabama in Tuscaloosa
No alarms and no surprises please.
incidentally
michigan held the belt much more recently (2003) than penn state (1998)
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
So?
Texas Tech, Mizzou, Arkansas, and Oklahoma State have all held it more recently than Michigan.
As the site explains, belt holders have consisted of great, decent, mediocre, and bad teams, and have consisted of both long and short defenses. It’s not so much about great teams or great programs as it is being in the lineage of the first game ever played.
No alarms and no surprises please.
Problem is, UF had it for a while, and outside the SEC, nobody had a chance to take it
cuz UF was playing the Citadel and the like.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
The site explains this also
Once the belt goes to the SEC it tends to stay there for a while because 1)The SEC is good and 2)The SEC tends to schedule total jokes OOC.
No alarms and no surprises please.
More bad news for Rich Rod
How odd is it that people are doing polling on private citizens?
Mike
Black Shoe Diaries
it would be interesting to see what the results would show
if they did a similar JoePa poll…maybe juniata or whoever’s doing the polling for the sestak/toomey race can throw a few questions in there…
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
as long as ohio statre sucks is not in there joepa will get a a landslide
I'm sorry, Bruce. These boys get that syrup in 'em, they get all antsy in their pantsy. Captain O'Hagan
by psu in the w-b on Jun 4, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Any worry about this happening to Penn State?
Discussions about the “Michigan Way” and RichRods divisiveness only make be think its a precursor for something that will be close to home, and soon.
We don’t know what will happen when JoePa retires but it will be relatively soon. There have been two pretty sizable camps being arranged over the past few years: the traditionalists who want the athletic department to be as unchanged as possible, and the moralists who want to uphold the program’s principles but take it in a new direction with significant changes in staff, recruitment, schemes, etc.
The numbers change with every win and loss, but an 8-4/9-3 season is the sort of result that splits those groups pretty evenly. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who think this is the sort of result we’ll end up with in 2010.
What position does this put on the University President, Athletic Director, and other decision makers who choose the next coach? I think the pressure will be immense on them and on the coach that’s selected, and I don’t know what the best solution is other than winning.
Look at 2012: games on the road at Virginia, Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Purdue. No Indiana on the schedule. I’m not saying JoePa will be gone by then—nor do I have the prescience to know if these team will be good—but what if there’s a new coach in town and he goes 6-6? Could we stand a second series of Dark Years? Do we end up being the butt of jokes for Wolverine fans?
I’m not trying to be pessimistic, I’m just trying to temper some of the mild condescension being thrown at UM. If there’s one saving grace. I think Michigan went the third way: an individualist who places winning and results above tradition, which I think is the only way you’re guaranteed to get a majority of your fanbase against you.
Unless you win.
by Cairo on Jun 4, 2010 4:52 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
But, but, but
what about the hate?
Eat more pie.
by Illegal Formation on Jun 4, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
most definitely
and I think it’s most likely to happen in a way very similar to Michigan.
After Bo left, Michigan hired Gary Moeller and then Lloyd Carr. Both Bo guys and both decent coaches. But nothing to get particularly pumped about. Then, roughly twenty years after Bo’s retirement, they go in a completely different direction. And it blows up in their face. (I still think DickRod can more or less save face and take scUM back to a bowl game, but it’s already abundantly clear that he was a bad hire for michigan from a PR perspective if nothing else.)
I’d be surprised if Scrap isn’t the next coach (I’m a traditionalist in your schema). I think he’ll do great, but maybe he’s just above average. Maybe he gives us a lot of 8, 9, and occasional 10 win seasons but no national champ contenders? The natives get restless and 10 or 20 years after JoePa’s retirement, we bring in someone completely out of the blue….
I hope that day never comes…in a certain sense, one could argue that Michigan’s experience with RichRod is a cautionary tale to those who want to open up a national search…
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I'm fine with a national search
so long as it brings in the right guy.
With that said, I think the right guy(S) is/are already on the coaching staff, but just because someone never coached with/for Paterno doesn’t mean they don’t share a lot of the same values. There’s a couple scrappy coaches from Iowa and Northwestern who I wouldn’t be that opposed to. Then the Rutgers/Temple coaches.
Just so long as we don’t buy the snake oil, I think we’ll be fine.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 4, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
and speaking of snake oil
combined with all the tradition and history of Michigan, I kinda picture them as that elderly couple who gets conned by the smooth talking salesman with the fancy suit and slick hair.
by The JuggerNitt on Jun 4, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not really
A down period of sorts? Possibly.
Significant, realistic doubt that the program will ever return? Nope. Penn State is the only program that matters in a great HS football state. Penn State may sometimes get down, but PSU will never stay down unless Pitt or Temple replaces it as the premier program in the state, which would take a perfect storm of unlikely events.
No alarms and no surprises please.
6-6 kind of similar to our last new coach
maybe we’ll give him 45 years to prove himself and still have doubters that were not born when he started.
Michigan will never dominate CF like their fans believe
but I suspect at some point they will find a coach that can make them nationally relevant again….when that is…no clue
They have a brand and facilities to be a solid Top 10 team with the right coach
Brandon puts a crappy product in a pizza box
Why would anyone expect quality on the football field?
by Frank O'Brien on Jun 5, 2010 6:09 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm surprised no one said this earlier.
"I want your money, but I don't want your two cents." - JVP
by ReadingRambler on Jun 5, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions

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