A bit of perspective....
Because I am a cousin in law of a starter on the team, I had an opportunity to visit an area between the Lasch building and Holuba Hall after the Purdue game. It's a section where many of the player's parents congregate to tailgate before and after the games. Many of the children of these parents, team members, come out after the game to hang out with their families.
My guess is that there were at least a dozen or so guys that hung out for a while. I got to talk to a few of them. What I got from observing these kids is that, they are KIDS. Just kids. Kids like you and I were when we were 19 or 20. They dress the same, act the same, etc.
I also then considered the enormous pressure these KIDS are under. 100,000 fans. Some national TV games, and every game on TV. Press from most of the state. A coach that is a national icon. But, all in all, they are really just kids.
They really are. Many of them were just happy to be picking up scraps of food leftover from the tailgate. Many of the kids probably couldn't afford the 7 or 8 bucks it would cost to go to McDonald's or the like. When Paterno says that many of the kids don't come from the best background, I see what he means. I'm not trying to make an argument for paying players, but these guys were responsible for at least $5 million in ticket sales that day and were eating leftover sausage sandwiches. I get it, their scholarship is worth at least six figures. But still, as I walked back to my car and saw some of the VIPs leaving the club suite area, I had to ponder if they realized the same thing that I had. They aren't professionals. They don't look like professions. They really are just kids.
Next time I am thinking about yelling something from the stands, I have to keep that in mind.
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Well said...
I wish I could rec this a million times!
Agree!
" When you cross that Blue Line, you are mine...Across the Blue Line, it's all football. " " And what you need to do in your life is paint Blue Lines everywhere. " - Joe Paterno 2009
by BlueWhiteLife on Oct 16, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That Is Why
I hesitate to criticize players. I made an exception yesterday when Szcerba waved off Haplea right after the false start penalty. Players have to follow the instructions of the coaching staff even if they disagree with what the coaches are doing.
On the other hand the coaches are well-paid professionals and I have no problem calling them to task for their shortcoimings.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
by nits4ever on Oct 16, 2011 12:53 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
On the other hand the coaches are well-paid professionals and I have no problem calling them to task for their shortcomings
This is exactly how I feel
by OmarLittle on Oct 16, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Although I agree with you to a point
Scholarship players don’t have the 90 thousand dollars in debt that I had coming out of college. And I came from the same background some of these kids did.
So I empathize with them, but I don’t sympathize.
by misdreavus79 on Oct 16, 2011 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Oh yes, I am not saying..........
that student athletes should be paid. I don’t think you can do that. But, you have to admit it’s a crazy amount pf pressure for a young, unpaid kid to be under. Nothing against a traditional student, but 100,000 people don’t “boo” that student when he flunks an exam. The same 100,000 weren’t as kind to Rob Bolden yesterday when he threw a bad pass. The average student doesn’t get slammed on a half dozen blogs when he has does poorly in class. This particular blog isn’t really guilty of slamming players, but some others, like pittblather.com and the like……………aren’t as kind.
You have to remember the football team funds ALL the other athletics at Penn State. What does a football weekend net Penn State? Ten million bucks, conservatively? Sometimes it just seems unfair.
Although I did mention it, it wasn’t the message I had hoped to convey. I just wanted to remind myself, and others, that these kids are just that, KIDS.
Off topic, I did see Paterno leave the game yesterday, being driven off in a Jeep Patriot or something like that. I couldn’t resist, and yelled “come on, can’t you get the guy a better ride than that?”
Also got to tell McGloin “nice game” and wish his parents well.
When you put those black shoes on tomorrow, and you put on that jersey without your name on the back, and you put that plain helmet on, that's tradition. Penn State tradition!
--Who else?
That's an upgrade
I remember seeing him in the early 2000s sitting in the middle of a light pickup truck with Jay and and the driver.
Washingtonian and Penn Stater -- My blog features the triumph of hope over experience that is being a DC sports fan (especially the Nats) as well as the Nittany Lions, life in BeltwayLand and other things I find interesting. @doubleuefwhy
I saw that too . . .
Joe couldn’t even get Shotgun?
by Nittany SeaLion on Oct 17, 2011 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Anyone booing players in my section
gets an earful from me. I’m fine not liking the play or criticizing the play. I’m also fine with criticizing the coaches. I am NOT ok with booing the players or saying things like “_ sucks”
Unfortunately, I see a lot of this even at 8 and 10 year old soccer games. Some people just gotta hate I guess.
With firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right
- A.Lincoln
SJ what about
“Dude that was a terrible throw! What were you thinking?” In an exasperated tone more than a negative one? I’m guilty of going "uh, WTH? Even on plays when I saw a better option wasn’t taken, despite a conversion or positive gain,
Predicting Penn State's Offensive Scripts since 2005!
I think saying,
“what were you thinking?” is acceptable. It’s not acceptable to boo someone or call them names or say they suck.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
What if the player does suck?
There’s a difference with being rude and being truthful.
by misdreavus79 on Oct 17, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Use a different adjective
Saying a player sucks, and saying a player isn’t very good right now, or saying he could use some improvement are technically the same thing, but the latter two don’t make you sound like a dick.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 18, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
The latter two also imply that the player can improve.
We’ve seen plenty of examples of players that don’t.
For the record, I’m playing devil’s advocate here. I have better things to do with my life than to sit here and call people names.
by misdreavus79 on Oct 18, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
McGloin is Maverick
“You don’t have time to think up there. If you think, you’re dead”
Predicting Penn State's Offensive Scripts since 2005!
Yeah, I'm fine with that. I say that stuff too.
When it goes into booing or saying the person sucks, I get a little ticked.
I know it seems like a subtle difference, but to me it really isn’t. One criticizes the play, the other criticizes the person.
With firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right
- A.Lincoln
we had a "McGloin is garbage" guy in our section
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
Did you beat him up?
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
I should have, but I am a chicken
We sat in our real seats the first time this year. The seats are new to us and holy crap, we were surrounded by old men. ALL THE OLD MEN. Luckily, they yelled and cheered, did not yell at people to sit, and the one next to me sang along to Sweet Caroline. It was adorable.
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
Just because you graduated college with debt doesn't mean football players
shouldn’t be paid.
I got a healthy academic scholarship to attend PSU. That was great; I don’t pretend for a minute that I provided as much value to the University as any member of the football team.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
EVERYONE LOOK HOW SMART I AM
/just playing, congrats
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Oct 18, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
no, that was fair
no need to throw my scholarship in their really.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
And just because a player adds value to the program doesn't mean what they're getting right now is not valuable
I work for a company that made 28 billion in revenue last quarter, and I make less than .0001% of that. Yet, I’ve contributed several millions to the company all by myself.
by misdreavus79 on Oct 18, 2011 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
P.S.: This is not about me graduating with debt.
It’s about them graduating with none.
And them graduating with a lot more name recognition than me (which usually leads to better jobs).
And them having the time of their lives in school (all those girls I had to bust my ass to get they just have to show up and go home with).
And them having the trainers, the nutrition program, the tutors, the health package, the bowl game gifts, and all of these other perks that people seem to forget, which make the total package a lot more appealing once you add it all together. You know how much a non-athlete has to pay for all of the benefits a player gets (btw, I played a club sport at Penn State, but I had to pay to be able to do that)?
A lot of people are focusing way too much on the dollars and completely ignoring the whole package.
Oh, and another thing: Keep in mind that these players are not forced to play. If they want to quit the team, they can.
I agree with increasing their scholarship money to be able to pay for cost of living since they can’t really work like I did, but outright paying for playing football is something the NFL is designed to do, not the universities.
by misdreavus79 on Oct 18, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Add all of that up
and it’s still not worth what the kids give to the schools. And in many cases, it ain’t even close.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
See my example below of how much I give to the company I work for
and how much I get back in return.
by misdreavus79 on Oct 19, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with your thoughts and viewpoints, run4peach.
Just want to add: If any of you ever find yourself among a group of young soldiers/sailors/airmen/Marines, you will get the same feeling and then some. They come from all sorts of backgrounds, and get paid relatively little to risk everything.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Oct 16, 2011 5:15 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
And That Is Why
If I am at the Beav next Sept. 15th I will cheer Navy when they come onto the field. I never cheer for a PSU opponent but I will have to make an exception in this case.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
by nits4ever on Oct 16, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
You have NO idea how much it cost me to include airmen and sailors in that post.
I’d rather have a sister walking the street than a brother in the Air Force or Navy. (Keep in mind my family has been Army since 1713 . . . . )
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Oct 19, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't get this disrespect for other branches of the military
Just because they weren’t your branch means their sacrifice is somehow less than yours? Seriously, you should just be proud that someone decided to serve at all.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
Kyle, with all due respect, we're civilians.
We don’t have the same perspective as our warriors and we should never try to judge their inter-service rivalries by our standards.
What you’re seeing from 84 is not a mockery of the service of others. Each branch is incredibly proud, competent, and full of traditional military spirits. What you’re seeing from 84 is good-natured ribbing.
"Don't you'uns think this outlaw bit's done got out of hand?"
by ReadingRambler on Oct 21, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Alright I hope so
Both my parents were in the Air Force, and I’m proud of that, so forgive me if I was a little upset that it sounded trivialized.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
I reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally
hope we don’t boo Navy. That would look so poor…
Needs moar Dukes
Sean Lee is the only tolerable thing about the Cowboys
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Oct 24, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
YES!
So many of them are fresh out of high school, and the military is their college of choice and chance at improving their life, and the life of their family.
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
Great Post
I’ve said for a while I think players should have the rights to market themselves. I’m not in favor of being paid by the university, or taking handouts from boosters, but if a local car dealership is willing to pay a kid a couple thousand bucks to film a commercial and hang out at the car lot for a few hours on a Saturday to sign some autographs, why should we deny them that?
Yeah, the rich would get richer, and the big schools would be able to attract the better players, but someone explain to me how that’s different than the current system we have now. We’ll always have the haves and the have-nots. That’s not the kids’ fault.
And just to expand this thought
Here is how I would control it. Mandate that all payments be reported to the NCAA, and cap the most a kid can make at $25k/year (or pick your number). Anything not reported to the NCAA or over the cap would be a punishible offense of lost playing time and reduction in future revenue opportunities. This way the NCAA could make sure everything was on the up-and-up and kids aren’t getting paid for bogus jobs.
This way the kids aren’t so dirt poor they have to take illegal money to have a life outside of football. And by capping how much a player can make, businesses would then have to find other players to endorse their products once a kid was tapped out thus spreading the wealth around.
And for kids that aren’t good enough to get endorsement deals with Nike, they should be allowed to get a job if they want one. It’s tough during the season, but there’s no reason why a kid shouldn’t be able to wait tables or sweep floors a few hours a week to put some money in his pocket. To deny them the fruits of their labor while those in charge simultaneously profit off of it is the definition of slavery.
I'm suprised at this
The purpose of the NCAA rules (scholarship restrictions, academic progress requirements, etc) is truthfully to ensure a fair# competition from the perspective of the member institutions. All the other stuff they talk about is utter asshattery. I do not believe the NCAA inherently cares weather or not the players get paid, graduate or get into criminal trouble.
#Fair does NOT mean equal. Fair means that the rules apply evenly to everyone. It is FAIR that each school retains their gate receipts (as a simple example, there are complications such as visiting team’s percentage, etc). That does not mean that each team’s gate receipts will equal the same amount.
The things that are against NCAA rules are against NCAA rules because the institutions collectively agreed to refrain from those activities. The act of paying an athlete to play for your team isn’t inherently unfair, what is unfair is if you’re doing it as part of the NCAA. That is unfair to the other institutions because they explicitly agreed to not do that.
The reason the schools decided to enter into this NCAA pact is as a survival mechanism. Imagine if Montana State began “recruiting” CFL players to “attend” their school. Their teams would do much better, their academic rank would increase because they would be a more “exclusive” school (it’s been shown that successful football teams result in higher application numbers). You can see how this would spiral out of control quickly.
The NCAA is an organization whose purpose is to protect the member schools from each other and to keep other member schools in check. It really has nothing to do with the athletes themselves.
Yeah, the rich would get richer, and the big schools would be able to attract the better players, but someone explain to me how that’s different than the current system we have now. We’ll always have the haves and the have-nots. That’s not the kids’ fault.
Regarding the haves and have-nots; why not eliminate the scholarship limits then too. They serve the same purpose as the amateurism ideal and have the same effect. They allow Northwestern to compete with Ohio State under agreed upon rules. Without that NCAA enforced protection, Northwestern would have to face the possibility of having to provide as many scholarships as OSU to have a fair competition (as there is a link to performance and associated benefits with higher numbers of scholarships). No, these are not the only factors involved with NW and OSU football stature, but they’re illustrative of a larger point. That point is that the rules agreed to by the member institutions allow more of them to participate because they know the limits of what they can be expected to invest.
Mandate that all payments be reported to the NCAA, and cap the most a kid can make at $25k/year (or pick your number). Anything not reported to the NCAA or over the cap would be a punishable offense of lost playing time and reduction in future revenue opportunities. This way the NCAA could make sure everything was on the up-and-up and kids aren’t getting paid for bogus jobs.
And for kids that aren’t good enough to get endorsement deals with Nike, they should be allowed to get a job if they want one. It’s tough during the season, but there’s no reason why a kid shouldn’t be able to wait tables or sweep floors a few hours a week to put some money in his pocket.
As long as the total payment is under the proposed NCAA cap why does the NCAA care if the job is “bogus”. I mean deciding what is “bogus” and what isn’t is going to be an awfully tough distinction. I mean for a 3rd string lineman, standing around at a auto lot for 2 hours and receiving the maximum NCAA payment is probably a “bogus” job, but the star QB on the other hand is probably actually worth that and could be considered “non-bogus”.
Again this deals with creating a fair competition.
And finally the biggest canard of the pay-the-players argument;
To deny them the fruits of their labor while those in charge simultaneously profit off of it is the definition of slavery.
To suggest that people taken against their will at the end of a whip (or worse) from their homes in Affrica, crammed into ships and sent over the ocean to a place where they would be chained together like pack animals to be bought and sold without any voice in the matter is analogous to a bunch of kids who voluntarily decided it was in their interest to pursue a college education and play football on the side (which incidentally pays their expenses to obtain this college education) is simply absurd. Let me know when the next head coach shows up with a whip at a players signing day press conference.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 18, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
The NCAA is fair to the member institutions and their employees
More than fair, in fact, given the salaries coaches earn at major college football and basketball programs. I say: more power to the coaches and the administrators; they should earn what the market bears.
However, the players are not treated fairly under the current rules in college football. They’re college kids, like many of us were at one point, with little money. But unlike most of us, they provide an elite good — entertainment in the form of athletics performed at a very high level — that provides significant both tangible (in the form of gate receipts, TV deals, etc) and intangible (in the form of increased reputation, increased applications, etc) benefits to their university. Their compensation (in the form of a scholarship and room and board) is not commensurate with the value they provide the university; this is an injustice that is a black eye on major college athletics, and one that can be fixed relatively simply as Mike described above or in another fashion.
Anyone who thinks the system at present is fair to the players isn’t paying attention.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Oh, man
I love it every. Single. Time. That you put forth this argument. I was digging your flow on this one for awhile and thought ‘my, he’s going well here, really concise.’
And then you bring the injustice! and the black eye! And that just cracked me up anew, brother.
Keep fighting the good fight! ;)
As you know, I love college sports
particularly college football.
But I can’t help but think that the whole think is fucking corrupt. Ass holes like Lane Kiffin can jump from school to school while making millions of dollars and meanwhile in their wake there are a bunch of kids (mostly in the SEC) who get kicked off the team and lose their scholarship and who can’t pay for beer or pizza or whatever despite the millions of asses they put in the seat.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
There is a simple solution to this
If these kids feel as though they are being done an injustice by the current system, they can make the choice to not play NCAA football. Period. Problem solved.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 18, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
You're right
And, frankly, I think they should.
But the reality is, they are, as you call them, “kids.” Maybe the adults that are creating the system and making millions off of it should start acting like adults and reform the system to become more fair.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Problem with That
A kid can’t play in the NFL until his “college class” has been in college for three years. And without playing college football there is zero chance of even being looked at by the NFL.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
Well too bad
Sounds to me like the problem is with the NFL requirements then. They are the ones freeloading off of college football.
Also, if you don’t like the way it is, you still have the choice to do neither. Choose another career.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Why isn't their compensation commensurate?
Because kids also get scholarships for academics?
There are twelve people in the world. The rest are paste.
According to a study,
entitled “The Price of Poverty in Big Time College Sport,” the fair market value of the average FBS football and basketball player to be $120,048 and $265,027, respectively.
There isn’t one school in the country in which the price of tuition plus room and board, etc tops six figures.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I'll have to print this out and read it on the can and get back to you.
There are twelve people in the world. The rest are paste.
by WorldBFat on Oct 19, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
That isn't true
Penn State alone is over $25,000 per year for out of state—and this is straight tuition. From the university, here. That’s over 6 figures for four years, not counting a fifth in redshirt cases—and not counting the aforementioned academic support, healthcare, nutrition support, etc.
I see the benefits of a modest stipend, but to say that not one school in the country tops that is wrong—and Penn State is a public institution, many private institutions cost more.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Oct 19, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and, the $27,000 listed on the website doesn't include room & board, books, mealplans, etc
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Oct 19, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
The $120 - $265 is an annual "fair market value" number
after all, no athletic scholarships are guaranteed over four years.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
The Total Cost of a Year at PSU
is pushing $40K a year. That is the only reason MK and I are happy our 18 year old daugher decided to go to TCNJ instead of PSU. We are saving at least $50K over 4 years.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
"saving"
You’re still spending a ton of money to send her to TCNJ :-P
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
Fair vs agreeable
Their compensation (in the form of a scholarship and room and board) is not commensurate with the value they provide the university…
There can exist a disconnect between what is fair and what seems agreeable. Willingly agreeing to play football in return for a scholarship is entirely fair. It is a simple quid pro quo. The athlete agrees to participate and abide by the rules and in return, receive a financed education. It is plain as day what is involved and what is expected. Now, you personally may not think that the agreement is agreeable in terms of who benefits more, but apparently the athletes don’t have any such reservations.
…this is an injustice that is a black eye on major college athletics, and one that can be fixed relatively simply as Mike described above or in another fashion.
What “injustice” needs to be fixed? That OSU was able to compete with an unfair advantage on the athletic field over schools like PSU, Michigan, and Arizona State?
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 18, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
There is also plenty of other non-fiscal value to be gained
Access to world class facilities, nutritionists, football coaches, strength training coaches, doctors, training staff, equipment, etc is also part of the payment they receive.
Additionally, if they are good enough to earn a starting role on the squad, they are given national exposure with which they can use to improve their draft stock and eventual paycheck (Aaron Maybin took full advantage of this, for example). Also, they gain experience playing football at a high level with the pressure of thousands of fans in the stands and millions watching on the tv at home- invaluable experience for someone who would like to play professional football someday.
The closer you look at the situation, the more it looks like a regular old moderately paid interneship. No, you don’t get rich even though you may well (but in most cases probably not) be providing an elite good to the company. Instead, you gain valuable experience, make professional relationships and contacts, and if you perform well, possibly secure yourself a spot within the company being well compensated financially in the future. Most of the kids I knew with great jobs straight out of college had either worked directly for the company hiring them as an intern. It’s the same concept.
And really, its simple Microeconomics at play in both cases. Each party is a willing participant who sees some sort of immediate or future benefit from the partnership. Each makes a concious choice to enter the agreement. So long as the terms of the agreement don’t change (i.e. scholarship is taken away due to oversigning or the student doesn’t fulfill their academic commitments) then neither party should be upset with the outcome. Schools make money, kids benefit in many other ways.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 18, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You do touch on one area thats interesting
So long as the terms of the agreement don’t change (i.e. scholarship is taken away due to oversigning or the student doesn’t fulfill their academic commitments) then neither party should be upset with the outcome.
There are some areas that the NCAA should undertake changes to further their image that they are working so hard to craft; that of being about the students. Moving to a scholarship based on the full duration of eligibility or normal academic duration (some get 5 years with a redshirt athletically, and some academic programs run 5 years, I believe architectural engineering at PSU does) rather than year to year would be a good move for the NCAA to undertake. And I wish they would.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
I agree to an extent
The problem arises because some kids don’t want to work for their scholarship. I have a very good friend who swam for Georgia. She worked her tail off and won a national championship, earning her 4 year ride. (I’m not saying you need a NC to earn a scholarship, just the hard work part). However, during her tenure at GA, there were many girls who were let go from their scholarships- not because they weren’t living up to the hype, but rather because they weren’t putting in the work expected when they were offered the scholarship.
However, I do think that the school is taking the financial risk. And personally, I think that the school and the coaches (who are paid professionals) should be on the hook to make sure that the kids they are recruiting can handle the challenges of being a college athelete. If scholarships were 5 year deals, it would certainly increase the scrutinty that coaches have to put on character when evaluating potential athletes. I can only think of a small number of situations in which the scholarship should be nullified, which could be evaluated on a case by case basis.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 18, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. I omitted well defined expectations
of a continuing 4 or 5 year scholarship. I would expect there to be some ongoing stipulations, such as maintaining a particular athletic ability (say a swim time or something else sport specific, with exemptions for injury etc) in addition to the academic progress required, just as for academic scholarships already.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Here's the thing
Once upon a time, like let’s say 1986, the college sports landscape was not what it is today. Coaches did not make millions of dollars annual, and conferences didn’t sign TV contracts for billions of dollars.
But as the landscape of college athletics has changed to give the schools and the “adults” involved a LOT more money, the kids get the same deal they did in 1986.
Once upon a time, this was a fair deal between the players and the schools; but with all of the money that the schools now earn from these players, the terms of the agreement should change.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Here are a few things that you haven't addressed
1) What the schools do with the money they earn off of the backs of these players. Its not like the administrators of the schools are personally getting rich off of the athletic departments. As a matter of fact, most athletic departments operate in the red. And even of the ones that do operate in the black, the amount of money that comes in from athletics is dwarved by money that comes in to support the primary goal of most universities- research grants.
2) Their choice to play CFL or nothing.
3) The rest of the student atheletes. Minus the money that is brought in, non-revenue athletes are under the same conditions as football and basketball players. And they aren’t out there bitching about it. Their opportunity to go to college for free (or at a reduced rate) in addition to continuing to play the sport they love competitively is good enough for them. Why is that not good enough for football players?
4) The non-fiscal value that is inherently part of being a D1 athlete. Sure, you cite the fairmarket value of a college football player as 100K+, but in that analysis only scholarships are taken into account that accounts for your disparity. Lucrative signing bonuses, 7 figure salaries, in addition to the support staff they have in college are not taken into account. I would argue that once those are factored in, kids are coming out way ahead. The NFL is huge, but without their 4 year minor league try-out do you really think teams would be offering rookies the absurd types of money they do? No, because they wouldn’t be even close to proven commodities. The entire structure of the draft and the league would be different- more like baseball. The NFL would need its own developmental league.
5) I agree about the coaches making absurd amounts of money. I think that there are some inherent flaws in the system that need to be fixed, including holding coaches accountable. But I think that the system can be fixed without paying players.
The day that college football players are paid is the day I go back to watching the NFL. If I was interested in seeing the best on-field product I would watch them anyways.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
You should watch the NFL; it's great
Different than college football, of course, but great in its own right.
Here is my argument in a nutshell. At present, the major college football and basketball programs make a lot of money. That money has made many adults very wealthy; ad executives, coaches and athletic directors, conference commissioners, TV personalities, etc. I think that’s great, but I also think that as the “take” of all of those stakeholders has increased, the “take” for the most vital “stakeholder”, the player, should also increase.
I don’t care that the CFL exists, that 1% of the players go on to make boatloads of money in the NFL, that the swim team is happy with their deal, or anything else. I simply think that the players get a bum deal in the current situation. You disagree with me. So be it. I bet if you polled the players, though, that the vast majority would think they don’t get a fair deal.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Again,
you’re confusing fair with something you would find agreeable.
If the athletic departments didn’t “make” all this money would you be complaining? As psuphysicist points out below, the athletic departments in general are not awash in cash at the end of the year, they often are in debt.
If the departments weren’t generating the cash you claim they are would there be a problem with the compensation package the athletes receive?
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
because as part of the rules the NCAA schools agreed to they agreed to not allow their players to do that. If the player does that, the athlete is not allowed to participate in NCAA sanctioned events for the school. This is also made clear to the student when they agreed to the agreement with the school. Its the exact same kind of conditional agreement as signing a non-compete clause with an employer.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 19, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
DOESN'T ANYBODY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE RULES!!!!!!!!
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
by hbeach08 on Oct 19, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
2nd best post in the whole thread.
Sorry, can’t beat a post about reading stuff on the can.
"Don't you'uns think this outlaw bit's done got out of hand?"
by ReadingRambler on Oct 20, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Which kid?
The bench warmer or the start athlete?
by misdreavus79 on Oct 19, 2011 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
If the coaches and athletic directors and assistant coaches
and TV broadcasters and camermen and everyone else was not making a lot of money off of college football games, then no I wouldn’t be complaining.
I think they should get rid of Title IX, too — or at least amend it significantly — which I think would end most of the problems with ADs not being able to balance their books.
And, as Mike says, there are plenty of ways to do this at NO COST to the university.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
What diference does it make to the athletes?
If the coaches and athletic directors and assistant coaches
and TV broadcasters and camermen and everyone else was not making a lot of money off of college football games, then no I wouldn’t be complaining.
The athlete is in no worse of a position if someone is making money than if they were not. Its simply an emotional argument. it “feels” “unfair”, facts be damned.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 19, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
It doesn't just feel unfair
it actually is unfair. If I’m the main attraction at the circus, and everyone else associated with the circus makes more money, but i’m still making peanuts, that’s unfair. It both feels and is unfair.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I disagree fundamentally
You wouldn’t be the main attraction of the circus if someone with money hadn’t built and promoted the circus. They are entitled to pay you as little as you will work for and take as for themselves as much they would like. Thats capatilism. If you feel like you deserve more, either find another circus or start your own.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Lots of athletes do not think it is fair
but they still participate in it because it’s really the only game in town. I’m no fan of Tim Tebow, but, in his
recently released autobiography entitled “Through My Eyes,” Tebow reveals his frustration with the NCAA. He writes, “The NCAA’s stance on paying players – or not paying them – seems unfair to me, with the preposterous amounts of money being made by the schools, television, coaches, and the like. And the players?”
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Ya know what is "unfair" too...
that I am not paid millions of dollars by the company that employs me. Sure they make Billions in revenue, surely they could “spare” a little for me.
Oh wait there are something like 50, 000 people that are involved in creating that kind of revenue? That has to be split somehow? You mean revenue does not equal net profit?
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Here's the difference
Do 110,000 people pay thousands of dollars to watch you work? Does ESPN offer you billions to show you sitting at your desk on national television.
If you brought millions of dollars into your company, you would be compensated accordingly.
I can confidently say
that over 10 thousand people showed up to my place of work today.
And as I already mentioned, my company made 28 billion just last quarter. So yeah, point stands.
by misdreavus79 on Oct 19, 2011 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and I brought millions of dollars to my company last year.
Plural.
by misdreavus79 on Oct 19, 2011 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions

There are twelve people in the world. The rest are paste.
by WorldBFat on Oct 19, 2011 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's not like we don't understand how players should be fairly compensated in
sports leagues. There are hundreds of professional sports leagues around the world that can serve as a basis for what share of the revenue “society” has decided players deserve.
I’m sorry if you don’t feel like you’re fairly compensated at your job. I fail to see why that rationalizes fucking over college athletes.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
One big difference is that NFL players are unionized. If not for that, you can bet they wouldn’t be making millions per year. You can also bet you wouldn’t have to pay $200 for a single ticket to a single game.
right
and, honestly, i think the NCAA athletes should “unionize,” too, or at least band together. If, for example, all of the B1G football players decided this week, they were simply going to go out onto the fields and sit down rather than play the game, I bet things would change pretty quickly.
What’s crazy to me is that some on this thread apparently think that unless that or something like it happens, nothing is wrong and nothing needs to change. They seem to want to put the onus on the students, on the kids, to make the changes, and because the kids are reluctant to step up, they think the “adults” are in the clear.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
yeah I dunno
I’m afraid if we unionized a bunch of 18-22 year olds and gave them the power to go on strike until their demands were met, we would have little Occupy XYZ Stadium protests on a weekly basis. With players only spending four years in the system, I don’t see how you could have any consistent set of goals from one year to the next.
I think unions served a purpose in this country at one time when they were fighting for safe work conditions and indentured servitude. Now they just want outrageous pay rates, free healthcare, and a pension plan that funds them throughout 40 years of comfortable retirement.
by BSD on Oct 19, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
we still need unions and collective bargaining.
i think this will be more obvious as they continue to go away. down to 7 percent now and all people can afford is Walmart. Unions are needed as long as greed exists.
by tlrpsu on Oct 24, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah I bet they would change quickly too
A bunch of other athletes who weren’t quite good enough to make it in D1 sports would jump at the opportunity to play. Hell, I would have played football instead of rugby given the chance. And I would have done it for free- no scholarship or anything.
The point is that these aren’t necessarily the best of the best. Thats not how the system was set up. It was set up for student athletes. And the minute we start ignoring the student part is the minute it doesn’t make sense to have a college sponsor a pro team.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And the minute we start ignoring the student part is the minute it doesn’t make sense to have a college sponsor a pro team.
For about the fifth time, I don’t want to see universities or the NCAA pay players. That will just drive up ticket costs and cable television rates. I want the players to have the opportunity to make money off the field on top of their scholarship, room, and board.
Sorry, I'm confusing some of what you say with spak
But its still a slippery slope. Allowing players to make money off of the field opens a pandora’s box of problems. Personally, I believe that it does more harm than good.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
denying players the opportunity to make money
has opened a bigger box of problems.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I disagree with that
at least part of it. The notion that denying players the opportunity to make money is the only problem inherent in the system is silly. The bigger problems exist becuase the people who are making money aren’t be held accountable. There is a specific vision that they have of college athletes. They aren’t doing their job to actually promote that vision.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree with this
not saying that denying players the opportunity to make money is the only or even the biggest problem with the current system. To me, that seems like the most obvious place to start reform, but maybe I’m wrong.
If reform started towards making the education a bigger part of the puzzle, that would work. But my main point is that the current system sucks and needs to go. If we both agree on that, then we’re closer than I thought.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I think if you really look at it
most people are in agreement here. We disagree on some points, but we agree on the overall message.
I think the solution of paying players, or allowing them to profit is starting at the very bottom of the puzzle. In my opinion, it rewards coaches and programs that haven’t remained true to the NCAAs vision by moving towards professionalism. I think top down reform is the only way to completely fix the system.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
What problems?
Aside from the NCAA eligibility implications what problems are there to talk about?
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
If you think the STUDENT
is a big part of the equation right now, then we have a different understanding of the system.
Outside of PSU, a lot of these kids are not treated as students. Their scholarships are torn up if they aren’t as good as upcoming players. Their education is a complete joke; no one educates them about what they should seek in a degree, etc.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
So your solution to the problem is to not treat them as students?
Thats backwards to me. Instead, I think the focus needs to be changing the culture of the ‘adults’ in college football. Instead of focusing on policing the kids, policies need to be implemented to force the coaches to act more like coaches.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i agree that the focus should be on the coaches
to act more like adults.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
What does need changing?
If it’s simply making cash part of the compensation package, there are reasons why the NCAA is unwilling to do so. Quite simply they have no reason to.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
You have that backwards,
If not for that, you can bet they wouldn’t be making millions per year. You can also bet you wouldn’t have to pay $200 for a single ticket to a single game.
The players are compensated highly BECAUSE people are willing to pay $200/ticket. Its the same reason the rents of coffee shops in desirable locations are expensive. The coffee is not expensive because the rent is high, the rent is high because the ability to sell coffee at high prices exists at that location.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
missed my point
My point is that you asked a athlete if they thought they got fair compensation. The odds are very high that they will not feel as though they are compensated adequately. I meant to illustrate that if you ask nearly anyone if they thought they personally were adequately compensated they would not think so and think they deserved more. Its just the way things are.
I fail to see why that rationalizes fucking over college athletes.
If you believe that the deal the athletes enter into constitutes getting “fucked over” I’d advice you to not enter it yourself.
So far nothing anyone has said has been evidence of any type of actual “fucking over”, the only reasons I keep hearing is something akin to "Hey! They got more! That’s not “fair”! Followed by some emotional foot stomping.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 19, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I feel like I am fairly compensated
I have worked at plenty of places where I didn’t feel that way, and I left and found a better job.
College football players really don’t have that option.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
an option to do what?
They could decide to just become a regular student.
They could try to find another way into professional football if they would like.
There are choices they can make.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Here's my issue
The NCAA and the universities offer these players free room and board and an education. Many times they coerce them into bogus majors that give them a degree that no serious employer would consider a qualification for the job they are looking to fill. The school makes millions of dollars off of their labor, doesn’t give them a penny, and goes beyond that to deny them the opportunity to wait tables to put some money in their pocket.
This, in my opinion, is not fair. I can go along if you don’t want the university paying the players, but what right do they have in America to deny them the opportunity to make money on their own? My employer can’t ban me from getting a second job or starting my own business on the side. As long as my performance doesn’t suffer or I’m not directly competing with them, they don’t and shouldn’t care. And they certainly don’t have a right to deny me from profiting from my labor outside of my duties to them.
What we’ve done by outlawing a player’s ability to make money is created a black market. Now we have boosters handing out $500 handshakes and agents flying players to glamorous parties in South Beach. What I’m suggesting is to get that stuff out in the open where we can regulate it. Allow players to market themselves or get a job waiting tables or washing cars. Just document it so we can regulate it. You’re saying they get a free education and they knew the rules when they signed up for it. I’m saying change the rules.
If a kid is making $25k/year, he’s less likely to take handouts if he knows he’s going to get suspended and lose the opportunity to make that $25k next year.
The NCAA and the universities offer these players free room and board and an education. Many times they coerce them into bogus majors that give them a degree that no serious employer would consider a qualification for the job they are looking to fill.
These same universities let normal students do that too. Sure psychology seems interesting as a major, they don’t usually tell you that you’ll have to earn a doctorate before you can make the kind of money needed to pay back your debt.
The school makes millions of dollars off of their labor…
The school does not make money on athletics. On the order of 5 athletic departments in the country are able to run on the revenue they generate, the rest need supplementary funds to continue operation. The notion that there is some fat cat raking in millions to go swimming in ala Scruge McDuck is a fallacy.
and goes beyond that to deny them the opportunity to wait tables to put some money in their pocket.
This, in my opinion, is not fair. I can go along if you don’t want the university paying the players, but what right do they have in America to deny them the opportunity to make money on their own?
America is not the one that limits their ability to do so. They are free to do this by the rules (laws) of the united states, however due to their commitments they willingly entered into (NCAA bylaws) they will face penalties if they chose to do so.
My employer can’t ban me from getting a second job or starting my own business on the side. As long as my performance doesn’t suffer or I’m not directly competing with them, they don’t and shouldn’t care. And they certainly don’t have a right to deny me from profiting from my labor outside of my duties to them.
This is in total support of what is mentioned above. The only restriction you have on your ability do engage in otherwise legal behavior is limited by the agreement you agreed to with your employer. It so happens to be that as part of the players agreement, they willingly suspend their ability to maintain employment for the duration of the agreement.
What we’ve done by outlawing a player’s ability to make money is created a black market. Now we have boosters handing out $500 handshakes and agents flying players to glamorous parties in South Beach. What I’m suggesting is to get that stuff out in the open where we can regulate it.
This behavior is already regulated. Changing the regulations to allow some of the behavior without punishment will likely reduce the occurrence of things that are deserving of punishment simply due to the higher threshold.
You’re saying they get a free education and they knew the rules when they signed up for it. I’m saying change the rules.
Why do the rules need to be changed?
Because some schools are not afraid to take advantage of the system to create a competitive advantage?
Then raise the punishment, don’t excuse the violation.
Because it “feels” “unfair” that the athletes don’t get paid in cash?
The ample supply of athletes willing to subject themselves to the agreement seems to indicate this is not a problem.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 19, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
The school does not make money on athletics. On the order of 5 athletic departments in the country are able to run on the revenue they generate, the rest need supplementary funds to continue operation. The notion that there is some fat cat raking in millions to go swimming in ala Scruge McDuck is a fallacy.
There is a difference between generating revenue and balancing a budget. Football players bring in millions. University officials spend it on administrative costs, stadium upgrades, and the women’s field hockey team.
This is in total support of what is mentioned above. The only restriction you have on your ability do engage in otherwise legal behavior is limited by the agreement you agreed to with your employer. It so happens to be that as part of the players agreement, they willingly suspend their ability to maintain employment for the duration of the agreement.
You keep arguing these are the rules they agreed to. I’m not denying that. I’m suggesting you think outside the box a bit and let’s change the rules to make this system a little more fair. It’s not right that kids get their names dragged through the mud for trying to make a few bucks when there are millions of dollars exchanging hands due to their labor that they have no access to.
Because it "feels" "unfair" that the athletes don’t get paid in cash?
The ample supply of athletes willing to subject themselves to the agreement seems to indicate this is not a problem.
What other option does a kid have? If you want to play in the NFL, what is your alternate career path? How else are you going to get there without playing in the college football system? The NFL doesn’t have a minor league system. You can’t just work out in your back yard for three years and expect to be a first round draft pick.
The fact is for a poor kid in the inner city, football is sometimes his best ticket out of poverty for himself and his family. Even if he doesn’t make the NFL, the chance at a college education is an opportunity to change the course of your family for generations to come. But that’s no excuse to make them take a vow of poverty for those four or five years they’re in school. Universities and the NCAA hold that over their heads for no good reason. They’re told don’t take money, or you’re kicked off the plantation and back to the inner city where you can fend for yourself.
If you want to play in the NFL, what is your alternate career path?
It is not the NCAA’s responsibility to make a fair career path to the NFL. Just because the NFL is freeloading off of the NCAA system, does not mean that the NCAA should alter their philsophical approach to amature athletics. There is not some collusion between the NFL and the NCAA. If there were, we could have this debate. However, as it stands the NCAA does not need to make changes to their system just because the NFL refuses to adopt a minor league approach.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I see that
But I’ll ask it again. Maybe this time I’ll get an answer.
Why does the NCAA have to deny a player the right to sign an endorsement deal or get a job outside of football to make some extra cash? Or to sell their memorabilia that was given to them by the university with no expectation of ever getting it back?
Don’t tell me those are the rules. I’m asking why we can’t change the rules.
And I'll answer again
See bconways response for a more thorough explanation. But the point is that it is a slippery slope. It opens up doors that give inherent competitive advantages to certain schools.
Personally, I think a full-cost scholarship (including a modest stipend) is the best approach. I believe that kids should have some spending cash.
But to allow jobs/endorsements is to invite more rogue boosters into the situation. Kids used to be able to have jobs, then, some booster in Texas or Oklahoma or whatever took advantage of it and now they aren’t allowed. Lets not pretend like that same situation wouldn’t happen again.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And in response to this
The fact is for a poor kid in the inner city, football is sometimes his best ticket out of poverty for himself and his family
Who is really gaming the system here? Is it the poor inner city kid screwing the NCAA or the NCAA screwing the poor inner city kid? My view, is that this is a charity. The NCAA gives these students an opportunity that they would most likely otherwise not be afforded- to attend college. If they choose to pursue football instead of academics and football, then they have made a choice. And I don’t feel bad for them if it doesn’t work out. They wouldn’t have had the opportunity at all if the NCAA and the university itself hadn’t afforded it to them.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
A separate side discussion here is why does it cost so much to go to college? Why is a college education at a state school costing >$100k. If a college education only cost $20k as it should, the scholarship we offer these student athletes isn’t as valuable. That’s the real travesty here, but that’s a topic for another blog discussion.
I still haven't been to the can yet, but I definitely agree with this.
There are twelve people in the world. The rest are paste.
by WorldBFat on Oct 19, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
that's some stamina
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
You gotta wait until the last possible moment for the best experience.
There are twelve people in the world. The rest are paste.
Excellent!
Deep thoughts all around this thread.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
There is a difference between generating revenue and balancing a budget. Football players bring in millions. University officials spend it on administrative costs, stadium upgrades, and the women’s field hockey team.
If the solution is eliminating non-revenue sports to make the situation fair, there’s probably some merit to that as a means to the end of increasing the compensation to the revenue producing athletes.
It’s not right that kids get their names dragged through the mud for trying to make a few bucks when there are millions of dollars exchanging hands due to their labor that they have no access to.
This is simply not the case. They have access to their labor in the form of the scholarship and the ancillary benefits that go with it.
The fact is for a poor kid in the inner city, football is sometimes his best ticket out of poverty for himself and his family. Even if he doesn’t make the NFL, the chance at a college education is an opportunity to change the course of your family for generations to come.
Truer words have not been spoken in this thread.
But that’s no excuse to make them take a vow of poverty for those four or five years they’re in school. Universities and the NCAA hold that over their heads for no good reason
There is a very good reason. The reason the schools agree to not allow their players to be paid in cash is because those limits are part of what keeps the system going. Should players be paid, it is easy to see how there would be fewer and fewer schools willing or able to field such teams. Without the teams those opportunities for the athletes to attend school are severely diminished.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 19, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here is the problem with this scenario
You aren’t actually changing the system, just increasing the payment available. This really does nothing to stop rogue boosters/kids from doing just what they are doing now to make more money.
As an example: Terrel Pryor alledgedly received 40k+ in cash. That doesn’t factor in reduced price cars, tatoos, and golf. If he was allowed 25k a year do you think he would have said to himself ‘oh ok, well I suppose thats fair. I won’t try to make any extra money.’ Not at all. The same problem would still exist. The wealth doesn’t get spread around, it just creates a professional atmosphere. And now, you have a kid flaunting his 25k, 2 hour gig next to the OL thats on scholarship but hasn’t even cracked the depth chart yet. He is still just as poor as he would have been without the cush jobs that his other teamates have because he doesnt have time to go to class, go to football practice and work.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 18, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
To be fair...
Mike’s idea does accomplish two things; 1) it increases the total compensation to the athletes and 2) it converts some of the compensation to a liquid form (cash). It does a good job of solving Joe Pa’s often cited example of “being able to pick up the tab for pizza”.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
I believe in the goodness of people. Given the choice between making $1000 legally or $2000 illegally, most people will take the $1000 and be happy with that. There will always be the Terrelle Pryor’s of the world that think they are worth millions and won’t be satisfied with a few thousand dollars. So you put rules in place to punish those people, but…and this is the key part…you PUNISH those people when you catch them breaking the rules. The NCAA has become too weak in enforcing their rules the past few decades and that’s why the system is out of control now.
And who knows. If Pryor was making $25k legally with his room and board paid for, maybe he wouldn’t have been so disenfranchised with a system that was making millions off of him. Maybe he would have turned down that $40k and paid for his own tattoos.
I'm with Mike on this
AJ Green sold the jersey he wore in the bowl game for like $500, and got suspended for three or six games or whatever, while the bookstore sold his jersey for $120 or whatever, and he didn’t get a dime off it.
No way does he commit that same “crime” (of course, selling something you own is only against the rules in the crazy logic of the NCAA) if he gets a decent stipend of $10k a semester or whatever.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
No way does he commit that same "crime"
That’s not necessarily true. What is being argued here is that greed goes away because they get a moderate to decent stipend. I think thats a nice thought, but not indicative of the way the world works.
We’re talking about 18 year old kids here. My money is on the fact that a signfiicant portion of them blow their stipend as soon as it comes in. Then, they sell their jerseys because they don’t have any stipend money left.
We’re not dealing with an entirely rational group of people. Most (read the majority) probably are. But a significant chunk of them are self-important, entitled kids who don’t think they have to play by the same rules as the rest of us.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not arguing that greed goes away
I’m arguing that the most basic motivation to make money off one’s self as a college athlete, which is to have a little bit of extra walking around money, goes away.
I don’t think the NCAA should find a way to better compensate players in order to stop all of the NCAA violations. The problem I’m trying to address is the unfair deal that players currently receive (in the eyes of many). That’s the problem I want to solve. It might so happen that also has some other benefits in terms of reducing the number of infractions, but I don’t think that’s the rationale for the policy change.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
That is a reasonable goal for sure
It would be nice if the NCAA (the schools themselves) came up with a way to be able to supply the athletes with some extra cash as part of their agreement. The problem is that there simply isn’t the money available to do that at the vast majority of schools and therefore the schools have agreed to not allow themselves to do this. One way to accomplish this would be to trim some of the “dead weight” from a revenue perspective and simply have fewer athletes to support. This is not likely a fashionable option, but it would allow this solution to work.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
It is actually the solution up for vote right now
The NCAA is looking to reduce scholarships from 85 to 80 at D1 schools. Most likely to free up some revenue to increase scholarships to ‘full cost scholarships’
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
are you against this?
your comments suggest you’d prefer to see a truly amateur league in which no players get any scholarships, etc.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I'm not
I’ve actually said explicitly I’m for a ‘full cost scholarship’ with a very modest stipend. Kids should have some spending cash. I’m not going to argue against that.
My biggest argument is that I like the ideal of student-athletes and ameteurism. I’m for certain reforms in the system that place the onus on the coaches and the athletic departments to ensure that the kids are being given the best opportunity to succeed as students first. In my opinion, thats the only way to fix the problems inherent today. But I won’t ever support a college system that doesn’t have a basis in ametuerism.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
you should read the Atlantic piece I link to below
student-athletes is an ideal, that the NCAA does very little to try and uphold.
I’m happy that you seem to embrace change in the system; you often read to me like someone who thinks the status quo is acceptable. Quite simply my point is that I don’t. If they want to not give the students any additional cash, but put a lot more pressure on the universities to make the kids study and get meaningful degrees and educate themselves, that’s a great start.
The problem is the system at large right now has very little to do with education, and everything to do with sports and money.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
My love of college football
directly correlates to my love of Penn State football. Joe Paterno, in my opinion, does things the right way. His first and foremost objective is to mold boys into young men. His second objective is to win football games. If everyone in the system behaved like JoePa, I feel like there would be much objection to the system.
Unfortunately, they don’t. And the NCAA does nothing to persuade administrations to hire ADs that will continue that mission at their school. Until that is fixed, there will always be coaches that are screwing over their players. Oversigning does happen, and its sickening. Coaches do screw over programs, and then bolt to the NFL only to come back with no reprocussions. Thats whats wrong with the system.
But one thing I won’t budge on are the basic rules the the NCAA set up to protect member institutions from themselves. This means enforcing ametuerism. The vision of NCAA athletics is to given students the opportunity to play a sport. With the amounts of money available, it would be very easy for schools to quickly move their football programs to school endorsed professional levels. I don’t think this is good for college athletics in any sense. And I think that if this happened, the inner city kids would be in a worse situation, with the exception of a very small minority that capatilize on their success- the same ones who are making it to the NFL and capitalizing now anyways.
The bottom line is that education should be the number one priority. It should be a priviledge to get a free ride to school, and it should be impressed upon these kids that they will most likely have a future in something besides athletics. Thats on the coaches. And its on the ADs to hire the coaches that make that a priority. And its on the NCAA to make sure the ADs and the coaches are complying with their vision.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
THIS!
This is a very well worded summary of my feelings as well.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Cosigned.
"Don't you'uns think this outlaw bit's done got out of hand?"
by ReadingRambler on Oct 20, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Spak, I hope you know I love your passion for this subject
But your and Branch’s arguments on it have two huge problems:
One, despite your fever-pitch when an opportunity to discuss this arises (or you create one ;), there’s just not enough buy-in to this notion of Injustice. But, I can appreciate that in so doing, you are hoping to improve upon those numbers.
Two, and far more important, is the continued dearth of counter-solutions to ‘the problem.’ I’d still love to read any article you can come up with (especially if written by you) that describes how letting players make money from endorsements or sale of their memorabilia can be regulated or enforced or generally kept less-shady than the current arrangements.
buy-in to injustice
maybe not on this blog, but in the media, there’s plenty of buy-in. Not just from the front cover of the Altantic (and let’s remember that Branch has won a MacArthur “Genius” Grant) but also from Wilbon, Deford, and Whitlock to name only a few. Bill Simmons cites the corruption in college athletics as among the main reasons he doesn’t watch.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Ametuerism was important years ago, but today college football is a multi-billion dollar industry. Times have changed. It’s time for the rules regarding player compensation to change as well.
I disagree. As long as the multi-billion dollar industry is supporting the vision that they set out to support, there is no inherent problem with them having more money. If the additional money means that more students can earn degrees and play college sports than I’m for it. Just because there is more money, doesn’t mean that money has to be divided differently than it was in the past.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The bottom line for me
We have a system where rich white guys pluck poor kids with no future out of the inner cities, enroll them in a bogus major not worth the paper the degree is written on, make them work their asses off, make millions of dollars that goes in the pockets of the rich white guys, tells the kids they get a free bogus education, a roof over their head, three meals a day, and not a penny more, And if they seek any means to put some extra cash in their pocket to buy a pizza, some clothes, or go see a movie, they will be punished with suspension or expulsion from the system.
Maybe you’re happy with that status quo. I don’t think it’s fair to deny a human being the means to profit from their labor.
precisely; couldn't have said it better myself
one of the interesting things (possibly problems) with addressing this on a Penn State blog is, of course, that this isn’t what Penn State does. If every AD in the country was like PSU, the situation wouldn’t be as bad as it is.
But the reality is that more programs in the country are probably closer to what Mike describes above than they are to PSU.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I think you hit on it
This is a completely foreign concept for PSU fans. Paying players? Are you mad?
PSU has been the biggest proponent of doing things “the right way” for the past 50 years. Meanwhile, they are also one of the biggest profiteers off of the labor of their athletes. Maybe PSU fans aren’t comfortable with the fact we’re one of the biggest plantation owners.
See above regarding the careless comparison with salvery,
please, just give it a rest.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 19, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Its a completely invalid comparison
Slaves didn’t have a choice to go into slavery, period. They were captured, kidnapped, and sold. Poor inner city kids have an option. Just because the choice to go to college is so far superior to their other options, does not mean that it isn’t ultimately a choice.
And for the record, I think its downright disrespectful to continue the analogy further.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
As an American citizen and as a descendant of Pennsylvanians who fought first to restore the Union and then to end the greatest crime ever seen on our shores, I fully agree.
"Don't you'uns think this outlaw bit's done got out of hand?"
by ReadingRambler on Oct 20, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Just because you think it is
doesn’t make it true.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
To be clear
I’m not suggesting this system is set up so rich white guys can take advantage of poor black kids. This isn’t really racism. It’s agism. People are taking advantage of kids to line their pockets with cash. They don’t care if the kids are black, white, yellow, or purple. They’re enticing young adults with no money into a system that exploits their labor to make millions of dollars, and then they deny those kids access to that money. It’s slavery without the racial overtones we connect to that word in this country.
It’s slavery without the racial overtones we connect to that word in this country.
It’s not. The difference is choice. One situation has it, the other does not.
Mike, you’re a respected mind around here. This kind of sloppiness puts that reputation in danger. Please knock this crap off, or take it elsewhere. It’s a disservice to us all.
I don't think it's that big of a deal
but I agree that slavery is a bad analog. I like what Taylor Branch wrote in his excellent piece for The Atlantic, which you should read if you haven’t.
The full quote:
Big-time college sports are fully commercialized. Billions of dollars flow through them each year. The NCAA makes money, and enables universities and corporations to make money, from the unpaid labor of young athletes.
Slavery analogies should be used carefully. College athletes are not slaves. Yet to survey the scene—corporations and universities enriching themselves on the backs of uncompensated young men, whose status as "student-athletes" deprives them of the right to due process guaranteed by the Constitution—is to catch an unmistakable whiff of the plantation. Perhaps a more apt metaphor is colonialism: college sports, as overseen by the NCAA, is a system imposed by well-meaning paternalists and rationalized with hoary sentiments about caring for the well-being of the colonized. But it is, nonetheless, unjust. The NCAA, in its zealous defense of bogus principles, sometimes destroys the dreams of innocent young athletes.
The NCAA today is in many ways a classic cartel. Efforts to reform it—most notably by the three Knight Commissions over the course of 20 years—have, while making changes around the edges, been largely fruitless. The time has come for a major overhaul. And whether the powers that be like it or not, big changes are coming. Threats loom on multiple fronts: in Congress, the courts, breakaway athletic conferences, student rebellion, and public disgust. Swaddled in gauzy clichés, the NCAA presides over a vast, teetering glory.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Wow, you and Branch both talking out of both sides of your mouths
Mouthside 1:
You: ‘slavery is a bad analog’
Branch: ‘Slavery analogies should be used carefully. College athletes are not slaves.’
Mouthside 2:
You: ’it’s not that big a deal’
Branch: ’corporations and universities enriching themselves on the backs of uncompensated young men*, whose status as “student-athletes” deprives them of the right to due process guaranteed by the Constitution—is to catch an unmistakable whiff of the plantation. ’
If you wanna use Colonialism—either you, Mike or Branch—to continue this characterization of injustice, fine. But let’s please (PLEASE?) leave slavery out of it.
*’uncompensated’: also wrong, as proven a number of times in this thread by both baconway & physicist.
"it's not that big of a deal"
people say outrageous things on this blog all the time. I don’t think it justifies asking them to “take it somewhere else,” particularly when the commenter in question built the blog.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Sorry if the word “slavery” makes you uncomfortable due to the racial overtones you associate with it. if I had a better term for one group of people profiting off of the work of others while only giving them room and board in exchange, I would use it.
As for taking it elsewhere, bite me.
Here is one
they are employees and the administrations are the CEOs.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Its the same level of pay discrepency
but its not as emotional of an argument.
Slavery is a reasonable hyperbole because there are just enough similarities for most people to connect the dots. The problem is that by using/ and or continuing to use an obvious hyperbole as a regular analogy, it ultimately discredits your ethos, which makes it more difficult for people to accept your arguments. Emtionally charged analogies are great if used sparingly and carefully, but when overdone they come off as campaign slogans.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Admittedly the racial overtones make me more alert to whats being said,
but the ONLY similarities to the two situations are the skin colors of the majority of each group.
if I had a better term for one group of people profiting off of the work of others while only giving them room and board (with an estimated value somehwere between $20,000 and $30,000) in exchange, I would use it.
Italics mine
I’d call it an agreement between parties. Most would call it a contract.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Well
The mortgage payment on my 3600 sq ft home is about $14,000 per year. How does a university justify charging $20k for a 200 sq ft dorm room to be shared between two people? (Actually making the total bill $40k for that 200 sq ft dorm room.) Especially in a building that was bought and paid for 15 years ago.
Again, tuition and housing costs are grossly overpriced right now.
There’s no point in arguing this anymore, guys. We’re going in circles, and jtothep is getting his panties in a wad over his white guilt.
You obviously don't live in DC
I’d love that kind of mortgage payment on a property 1/4 of that size
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Youve got good points all around here...
unfortunately high tuition and room and board is not what were talking about.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Yeah I know
But it’s a big part of the problem in this discussion. It’s high stakes dollars we’re talking about. Not only do college football players bring in millions for the athletic department, good football teams drive admissions for the school. High school kids in PA and NJ see those whiteouts on ESPN on a Saturday night and they tell themselves Penn State looks like a fun school.
And each kid that enrolls in PSU is tens of thousands if not a hundred thousand dollars in the PSU coffers. This is a big reason why college football has become such a serious business. It’s not just because alumni want a winning team. It’s because winning teams drive admissions.
A quick comment on that last statement
It’s because winning teams drive admissions.
Graham has adamantly stated the win/loss record of the football team has no effect on the overall state of the University — income or admissions — and he has the numbers to prove it. Personally I agree with your contention, but know the guy at the top disagrees with you — vehemently.
*
Rising tuition prices, to some extent,
is a function of the moral hazard created by the student loan industry. Student loans are very easy to get and cover the cost of tuition (plus other expenses). Borrowers/students become insensitive to the cost of college tuition. Tuition increases and student loan amounts then increase to cover higher tuition until it has created an upward spiral. I could draw you a graph, if you want!
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
This. One Thousand Times This
Government intervention is causing the tuition bubble. They throw more and more money into grants and student loans, and universities just keep raising tuition.
It’s a crime what they’re doing to college kids today. They’re basically taxing their future wages, but today we have 25 year old kids with college degrees living at home with mom and dad because they can’t find a job to pay off their $60k in student loan debt.
The bubble is going to pop eventually, and it’s not going to be pretty when it does. People are going to wake up to how the universities have overpriced their educations and plundered the working families of this country. When that happens, I think we’ll see a revival of community colleges, and online degrees will become increasingly accepted. Especially when the baby boomers move on to retirement and the Gen X’ers and Millenials who grew up on the internet are running the workplace.
I'm doing that.
But I finally have enough to afford my own place in the DC area too.
Predicting Penn State's Offensive Scripts since 2005!
I don't know how he can
since there was a noticeable jump in both the number of freshmen that applied to and accepted offers to attend in the fall of 2006. That was no coincidence.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Absolutely!
And each kid that enrolls in PSU is tens of thousands if not a hundred thousand dollars in the PSU coffers. This is a big reason why college football has become such a serious business. It’s not just because alumni want a winning team. It’s because winning teams drive admissions.
This is why the schools agree to have their athletic programs governed by the rules they set forth as NCAA members. To keep THIS competition fair (remember fair means the same rules for everybody). Athletics are simply a proxy for this battle.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Where the hell do you get off
saying shit like this:
jtothep is getting his panties in a wad over his white guilt.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
Sloppiness
Nothing sloppy in there. I choose my words carefully and intentionally.
As for my reputation, whatever. I’m not the one telling people to shut up because I don’t want to feel uncomfortable about being exposed to the truth.
Let's leave the projections of discomfort out of it
and stick to the meanings of words. Even if we acquiese to your request to remove any racial context from it, you’re misusing the word in characterizing this situation. College athletes are not slaves.
If you’re carefully and intentionally misusing it, then this is the wrong place for that.
But, hey, at some point if we want to continue sharing this living room, we need to figure out how to coexist. And for now, you’re probably right that we need to walk away and have a beer another day.
Slavery was around way before it existed in this country
I think we know the definitions of slavery apart from the racial overtones and college football is not slavery. It is an insult to our intelligence to suggest that we cannot separate the definition of slavery from race.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
This is either a gross misrepresentation of your grievance.
or an embarrassing carelessness with your words.
I don’t think it’s fair to deny a human being the means to profit from their labor.
The NCAA does not deny any human beings ability to profit at all; unless you agree to give up your opportunity to do so in return for the compensation package the NCAA provides. In fact they are directly enabling the person to do so! The athletes are being directly compensated for their actions as a result of agreeing to the NCAA agreement. They simply are not being compensated in the form of cold hard benjamins, or even Washingtons for that matter.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 19, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Darn preview/post confusion...
I intended to replace the existing subject line with
“The NCAA does no such thing.”
The one that was posted does nothing to further dialog, and only makes it personal. Please accept my apologies.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
But why does the NCAA have to deny them the right to make money outside of football? I’m okay with it if you don’t want players getting paid by the university. But you still haven’t made a good case to me why they shouldn’t be able to get a part time job or sign endorsement deals. Why does the NCAA have to deny them that?
The NCAA (the member institutions that agree to compete against one another under the rules the institutions agreed to), absolutely prohibit their schools from letting athletes from having outside employment because the NCAA does not want to have to decide what is "bogus" employment and what isn’t. It would be an awfully tough distinction. I mean for a 3rd string lineman, standing around at a auto lot for 2 hours and receiving the maximum NCAA payment is probably a "bogus" job, but the star QB on the other hand is probably actually worth that and could be considered "non-bogus".
Again this deals with creating a fair competition among the member schools. It eliminates grey areas in the rules.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
So then
We have to deny student athletes the ability to put money in their pocket just so things are competitively fair and Penn State doesn’t blow out Eastern Michigan by 40 points. I see.
How is that system working so far?
Apparently pretty well
for some reason (which I personally don’t understand) there are still a number of smaller schools making the jump up from division 2 to division 1 in athletics.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
That’s not surprising. There is money to be made in Div. I. Not so in Div. II.
The intent of my question is how has the current system done in creating a level playing field among Div. I teams?
It may be slow in adapting, but
the NCAA as a whole seems to be attempting. It wasn’t too long ago that there was no limit to the number of scholarships schools could offer per team. I think since the institution of the 85 scholarship limit there has been increased parity in football.
What they decide to do about rising inequalities between conferences, mainly driven by tv revenue, remains to be seen.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Furthermore
I’d wager that he didn’t sell his jersey for 500 bucks so he could eat. I’d bet that he went and bought himself a new ipod, xbox or clothes or booze or something with it.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
And so what if he did?
If he wants to sell his jersey for $500, what’s wrong with that? Why should he be suspended?
Because its against the rules
And I’m not going to rehash why the rules are important. Bconway did a pretty good job above. But personally, I think a competitive balance is extremely important. For that matter, so does the NFL- which is why they have a salary cap.
Also, he can wait until he graduates, and sell all of his shit then. Not a problem at all. The NCAA isn’t saying ‘you are never allowed to make money off of yourself, ever’. They are simply saying that for the priviledge of playing NCAA athletics, you have to abide by our rules while in school.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Totally agree
Play by the rules. Problem is the rules as they are structured now leave players feeling disenfranchised and give them an incentive to take illegal cash.
I’m saying change the rules to ease some of that temptation. I’m not saying let kids sign multi-million dollar shoe contracts. I’m just saying don’t ruin their career paths with suspensions or kicking them out of school for making a few extra bucks on the side with a small job or selling some of their stuff.
If a kid sold his XBox for $100 nobody cares. But if he sells his game jersey for $100 we suspend him or kick him out of school? I don’t agree with that.
Honest question;
Would the athlete be suspended for selling his XBox if it was pat of a bowl game swag package?
I’m pretty sure if the athletes parents bought them the XBox and they sold it, thate perfectly legal according to the NCAA (of course its legal according to any government’s laws).
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
I don't know the answer
But I always found it curious how football players can go on bowl trips and it’s perfectly okay for them to accept hundreds of dollars in swag and the NCAA sees no special benefit in that.
Do students in other sports get swag when they make the NCAA playoffs in their sport?
The NCAA has very little credibility in my eyes anymore.
I never understood that either. The only thing I can think of is that each school has the opportunity to be in that position of being able to accept a bowl bid. I guess in that respect it does maintain the equality in the rules from school to school, but not sport to sport.
That’s my best guess.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
The Myth of the Student Athlete
starting at the bottom because this is long; also from the Taylor Branch Atlantic piece.
Today, much of the NCAA’s moral authority—indeed much of the justification for its existence—is vested in its claim to protect what it calls the "student-athlete." The term is meant to conjure the nobility of amateurism, and the precedence of scholarship over athletic endeavor. But the origins of the "student-athlete" lie not in a disinterested ideal but in a sophistic formulation designed, as the sports economist Andrew Zimbalist has written, to help the NCAA in its "fight against workmen’s compensation insurance claims for injured football players."
"We crafted the term student-athlete," Walter Byers himself wrote, "and soon it was embedded in all NCAA rules and interpretations." The term came into play in the 1950s, when the widow of Ray Dennison, who had died from a head injury received while playing football in Colorado for the Fort Lewis A&M Aggies, filed for workmen’s-compensation death benefits. Did his football scholarship make the fatal collision a "work-related" accident? Was he a school employee, like his peers who worked part-time as teaching assistants and bookstore cashiers? Or was he a fluke victim of extracurricular pursuits? Given the hundreds of incapacitating injuries to college athletes each year, the answers to these questions had enormous consequences. The Colorado Supreme Court ultimately agreed with the school’s contention that he was not eligible for benefits, since the college was "not in the football business."
The term student-athlete was deliberately ambiguous. College players were not students at play (which might understate their athletic obligations), nor were they just athletes in college (which might imply they were professionals). That they were high-performance athletes meant they could be forgiven for not meeting the academic standards of their peers; that they were students meant they did not have to be compensated, ever, for anything more than the cost of their studies. Student-athlete became the NCAA’s signature term, repeated constantly in and out of courtrooms.
Using the "student-athlete" defense, colleges have compiled a string of victories in liability cases. On the afternoon of October 26, 1974, the Texas Christian University Horned Frogs were playing the Alabama Crimson Tide in Birmingham, Alabama. Kent Waldrep, a TCU running back, carried the ball on a "Red Right 28" sweep toward the Crimson Tide’s sideline, where he was met by a swarm of tacklers. When Waldrep regained consciousness, Bear Bryant, the storied Crimson Tide coach, was standing over his hospital bed. "It was like talking to God, if you’re a young football player," Waldrep recalled.
Waldrep was paralyzed: he had lost all movement and feeling below his neck. After nine months of paying his medical bills, Texas Christian refused to pay any more, so the Waldrep family coped for years on dwindling charity.
Through the 1990s, from his wheelchair, Waldrep pressed a lawsuit for workers’ compensation. (He also, through heroic rehabilitation efforts, recovered feeling in his arms, and eventually learned to drive a specially rigged van. "I can brush my teeth," he told me last year, "but I still need help to bathe and dress.") His attorneys haggled with TCU and the state worker-compensation fund over what constituted employment. Clearly, TCU had provided football players with equipment for the job, as a typical employer would—but did the university pay wages, withhold income taxes on his financial aid, or control work conditions and performance? The appeals court finally rejected Waldrep’s claim in June of 2000, ruling that he was not an employee because he had not paid taxes on financial aid that he could have kept even if he quit football. (Waldrep told me school officials "said they recruited me as a student, not an athlete," which he says was absurd.)
The long saga vindicated the power of the NCAA’s "student-athlete" formulation as a shield, and the organization continues to invoke it as both a legalistic defense and a noble ideal. Indeed, such is the term’s rhetorical power that it is increasingly used as a sort of reflexive mantra against charges of rabid hypocrisy.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I'd love to talk about this more
but at the moment I gotta get stuff done at work.
Hopefully we can continue later tonight. fairly late though. I’d like to talk about the Atlantic piece and the things it brought up (at least as much of it as I could stand to read).
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
I'm in the same boat
I like the debate, but it will have to wait until later on tonight.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 19, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Doh!
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
MORTAL KOMBAT!
Predicting Penn State's Offensive Scripts since 2005!
This is one example of why I can't take Taylor Branch's piece as anything other
than a really long complaint about college sports without an honest evaluation and didn’t get more than half way through.
Of course athletes participating in NCAA athletics are not eligible for workman’s compensation. They’re not workmen. More accurately, as is pointed out in the sixth paragraph in the quote above, the school does not pay wages, nor withhold income taxes on financial aid. I presume those two stipulations are requirements to file a state workmen’s compensation claim. For completeness sake, on the later conditions of (the university) controlling work conditions (if one were to classify athletic endeavors reimbursed with scholarships as work, which I merely do for the sake of argument) and performance I’d give a yes and a maybe, respectively.
Not only does Branch pull examples from the 1950’s and ’70’s, he neglects to inform the reader of the conditions as they are TODAY. I find it highly improbable that the NCAA does not have an insurance policy covering each of their athletes (and more importantly as far as they’re concerned their member institutions) in case of exactly these types of incidents. My local youth hockey association is required to carry this type of insurance coverage. I find it extremely unlikely that the NCAA does not do the same.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree
The evidence Branch uses is selective and anecdotal. Furthermore, it ignores important changes to the system as they have occurred throughout the years.
His arguments are almost purely emotional, built on single cases that may or may not be outliers. Niether branch, nor anyone will convince me of anything making those types of arguments.
REASON WILL PREVAIL

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Oct 20, 2011 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the fact that you're unwilling to read his entire piece invalidates anything you have to say
if you don’t want to spend the time to learn what one of the best journalists and historians in the country — and hsomeone who has spent countless more hours than you researching this — thinks about this issue, then why bother having a conversation with you.
You clearly don’t want to bother taking all of the evidence into consideration. Enjoy your ignorrance.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
from later in the article...
The legal contention centers on Part IV of the NCAA’s "Student-Athlete Statement" for Division I, which requires every athlete to authorize use of "your name or picture … to promote NCAA championships or other NCAA events, activities or programs." Does this clause mean that athletes clearly renounce personal interest forever? If so, does it actually undermine the NCAA by implicitly recognizing that athletes have a property right in their own performance? Jon King, a lawyer for the plaintiffs, expects the NCAA’s core mission of amateurism to be its "last defense standing."
Of course it doesn’t. It only allows the NCAA to use the likeness in NCAA related activities. After the athlete is no longer participating in NCAA sanctioned activities there is nothing stopping the athlete from using their experience or likeness as an NCAA athlete for the athletes own personal interest.
There is nothing that prevents a former athlete was to use their notoriety as a former NCAA athlete to shlep cars or, insurance or whatever sponsorship or other duty they can get.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
According to research by Charles Clotfelter, an economist at Duke, the average compensation for head football coaches at public universities, now more than $2 million, has grown 750 percent (adjusted for inflation) since the Regents decision in 1984; that’s more than 20 times the cumulative 32 percent raise for college professors.
Again, more of the same juxtaposition BS about someone getting paid more than someone else and that fact alone implying that there is something nefarious afoot or something that we should be outraged about.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
More of the same...these topics were discussed above in this thread.
NCAA officials have tried to assert their dominion—and distract attention from the larger issues—by chasing frantically after petty violations. Tom McMillen, a former member of the Knight Commission who was an All-American basketball player at the University of Maryland, likens these officials to traffic cops in a speed trap, who could flag down almost any passing motorist for prosecution in kangaroo court under a "maze of picayune rules." The publicized cases have become convoluted soap operas. At the start of the 2010 football season, A. J. Green, a wide receiver at Georgia, confessed that he’d sold his own jersey from the Independence Bowl the year before, to raise cash for a spring-break vacation. The NCAA sentenced Green to a four-game suspension for violating his amateur status with the illicit profit generated by selling the shirt off his own back. While he served the suspension, the Georgia Bulldogs store continued legally selling replicas of Green’s No. 8 jersey for $39.95 and up.
A few months later, the NCAA investigated rumors that Ohio State football players had benefited from "hook-ups on tatts"—that is, that they’d gotten free or underpriced tattoos at an Ohio tattoo parlor in exchange for autographs and memorabilia—a violation of the NCAA’s rule against discounts linked to athletic personae. The NCAA Committee on Infractions imposed five-game suspensions on Terrelle Pryor, Ohio State’s tattooed quarterback, and four other players (some of whom had been found to have sold their Big Ten championship rings and other gear), but did permit them to finish the season and play in the Sugar Bowl. (This summer, in an attempt to satisfy NCAA investigators, Ohio State voluntarily vacated its football wins from last season, as well as its Sugar Bowl victory.)
This has to do with the schools agreeing not to let their athletes engage in this behavior. The intent of this rule is to avoid the slippery slope of perpetually enlarged and expensive benefits given to athletes. Ultimately if left unrestrained it ends in a very small number of schools fielding athletic programs.
A different NCAA committee promulgated a rule banning symbols and messages in players’ eyeblack—reportedly aimed at Pryor’s controversial gesture of support for the pro quarterback Michael Vick, and at Bible verses inscribed in the eyeblack of the former Florida quarterback Tim Tebow.
This is in the schools interest to minimize potential controversy.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Amatuerism being defined
Obscure NCAA rules have bedeviled Scott Boras, the preeminent sports agent for Major League Baseball stars, in cases that may ultimately prove more threatening to the NCAA than Ed O’Bannon’s antitrust suit. In 2008, Andrew Oliver, a sophomore pitcher for the Oklahoma State Cowboys, had been listed as the 12th-best professional prospect among sophomore players nationally. He decided to dismiss the two attorneys who had represented him out of high school, Robert and Tim Baratta, and retain Boras instead. Infuriated, the Barattas sent a spiteful letter to the NCAA. Oliver didn’t learn about this until the night before he was scheduled to pitch in the regional final for a place in the College World Series, when an NCAA investigator showed up to question him in the presence of lawyers for Oklahoma State. The investigator also questioned his father, Dave, a truck driver.
Had Tim Baratta been present in their home when the Minnesota Twins offered $390,000 for Oliver to sign out of high school? A yes would mean trouble. While the NCAA did not forbid all professional advice—indeed, Baseball America used to publish the names of agents representing draft-likely underclassmen—NCAA Bylaw 12.3.2.1 prohibited actual negotiation with any professional team by an adviser, on pain of disqualification for the college athlete. The questioning lasted past midnight.
Another touching emotional tale of an athlete having to comply with the rules of the NCAA. While the reasoning for having all athletes maintain their amateur status is straightforward, defining exactly what is and is not allowed within the bounds of being an amateur athlete is what gives rise to these types of "Picayune Rules". Again the authors emotional plea falls short of anything of substance.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Govemrnmental law vs NCAA bylaws
Rick Johnson, a solo practitioner specializing in legal ethics, was aghast that the Baratta brothers had turned in their own client to the NCAA, divulging attorney-client details likely to invite wrath upon Oliver. But for the next 15 months, Johnson directed his litigation against the two NCAA bylaws at issue. Judge Tygh M. Tone, of Erie County, came to share his outrage. On February 12, 2009, Tone struck down the ban on lawyers negotiating for student-athletes as a capricious, exploitative attempt by a private association to "dictate to an attorney where, what, how, or when he should represent his client,"…
It did no such thing. The lawyer is free to represent the athlete to his hearts content. That does not mean that there are not NCAA related penalties that the athlete may face as a result of the athlete permitting said lawyer to represent them.
…violating accepted legal practice in every state. He also struck down the NCAA’s restitution rule as an intimidation that attempted to supersede the judicial system. Finally, Judge Tone ordered the NCAA to reinstate Oliver’s eligibility at Oklahoma State for his junior season, which started several days later.
I fail to see how the NCAA’s self imposed rules on participating schools athletic programs has anything to do with the governmental judicial system.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In hindsight he probably should have taken the offer from the Jays
The Toronto Blue Jays had made the left-handed pitcher James Paxton, of the University of Kentucky, the 37th pick in the 2009 draft. Paxton decided to reject a reported $1 million offer and return to school for his senior year, pursuing a dream to pitch for his team in the College World Series. But then he ran into the new NCAA survey. Had Boras negotiated with the Blue Jays? Boras has denied that he did, but it would have made sense that he had—that was his job, to test the market for his client. But saying so would get Paxton banished under the same NCAA bylaw that had derailed Andrew Oliver’s career. Since Paxton was planning to go back to school and not accept their draft offer, the Blue Jays no longer had any incentive to protect him—indeed, they had every incentive to turn him in. The Blue Jays’ president, by telling reporters that Boras had negotiated on Paxton’s behalf, demonstrated to future recruits and other teams that they could use the NCAA’s rules to punish college players who wasted their draft picks by returning to college. The NCAA’s enforcement staff raised the pressure by requesting to interview Paxton.
Though Paxton had no legal obligation to talk to an investigator, NCAA Bylaw 10.1(j) specified that anything short of complete cooperation could be interpreted as unethical conduct, affecting his amateur status. Under its restitution rule, the NCAA had leverage to compel the University of Kentucky to ensure obedience.
As the 2010 season approached, Gary Henderson, the Kentucky coach, sorely wanted Paxton, one of Baseball America’s top-ranked players, to return. Rick Johnson, Andrew Oliver’s lawyer, filed for a declaratory judgment on Paxton’s behalf, arguing that the state constitution—plus the university’s code of student conduct—barred arbitrary discipline at the request of a third party. Kentucky courts deferred to the university, however, and Paxton was suspended from the team. "Due to the possibility of future penalties, including forfeiture of games," the university stated, it "could not put the other 32 players of the team and the entire UK 22-sport intercollegiate athletics department at risk by having James compete." The NCAA appraised the result with satisfaction. "When negotiations occur on behalf of student-athletes," Erik Christianson, the NCAA spokesperson, told The New York Times in reference to the Oliver case, "those negotiations indicate that the student-athlete intends to become a professional athlete and no longer remain an amateur."
Paxton was stranded. Not only could he not play for Kentucky, but his draft rights with the Blue Jays had lapsed for the year, meaning he could not play for any minor-league affiliate of Major League Baseball. Boras wrangled a holdover job for him in Texas with the independent Grand Prairie AirHogs, pitching against the Pensacola Pelicans and Wichita Wingnuts. Once projected to be a first-round draft pick, Paxton saw his stock plummet into the fourth round. He remained unsigned until late in spring training, when he signed with the Seattle Mariners and reported to their minor-league camp in Peoria, Arizona.
Yet another anecdote pulling on the heartstrings of the reader without anything that seems illogical or even unreasonable. Of course the University of Kentucky has a responsibility to the rest of their athletes (not to mention the reputation of the University at large) to abide by the rules of the NCAA.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The explanation of what we would call "oversinging".
"When you dream about playing in college," Joseph Agnew told me not long ago, "you don’t ever think about being in a lawsuit." Agnew, a student at Rice University in Houston, had been cut from the football team and had his scholarship revoked by Rice before his senior year, meaning that he faced at least $35,000 in tuition and other bills if he wanted to complete his degree in sociology. Bereft of his scholarship, he was flailing about for help when he discovered the National College Players Association, which claims 7,000 active members and seeks modest reforms such as safety guidelines and better death benefits for college athletes. Agnew was struck by the NCPA scholarship data on players from top Division I basketball teams, which showed that 22 percent were not renewed from 2008 to 2009—the same fate he had suffered.
I think were all in agreement that this practice should stop.
In October 2010, Agnew filed a class-action antitrust suit over the cancellation of his scholarship and to remove the cap on the total number of scholarships that can be awarded by NCAA schools. In his suit, Agnew did not claim the right to free tuition. He merely asked the federal court to strike down an NCAA rule, dating to 1973, that prohibited colleges and universities from offering any athletic scholarship longer than a one-year commitment, to be renewed or not, unilaterally, by the school—which in practice means that coaches get to decide each year whose scholarships to renew or cancel. (After the coach who had recruited Agnew had moved on to Tulsa, the new Rice coach switched Agnew’s scholarship to a recruit of his own.) Agnew argued that without the one-year rule, he would have been free to bargain with all eight colleges that had recruited him, and each college could have decided how long to guarantee his scholarship.
We have explored why there is a limit to the number of scholarships schools are allowed to issue.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Evidence that the NCAA is actuallly improving on the sob storry in the first paragraph.
Academic performance has always been difficult for the NCAA to address. Any detailed regulation would intrude upon the free choice of widely varying schools, and any academic standard broad enough to fit both MIT and Ole Miss would have little force. From time to time, a scandal will expose extreme lapses. In 1989, Dexter Manley, by then the famous "Secretary of Defense" for the NFL’s Washington Redskins, teared up before the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Education, Arts, and Humanities, when admitting that he had been functionally illiterate in college.
Within big-time college athletic departments, the financial pressure to disregard obvious academic shortcomings and shortcuts is just too strong. In the 1980s, Jan Kemp, an English instructor at the University of Georgia, publicly alleged that university officials had demoted and then fired her because she refused to inflate grades in her remedial English courses. Documents showed that administrators replaced the grades she’d given athletes with higher ones, providing fake passing grades on one notable occasion to nine Bulldog football players who otherwise would have been ineligible to compete in the 1982 Sugar Bowl. (Georgia lost anyway, 24–20, to a University of Pittsburgh team led by the future Hall of Fame quarterback Dan Marino.) When Kemp filed a lawsuit against the university, she was publicly vilified as a troublemaker, but she persisted bravely in her testimony. Once, Kemp said, a supervisor demanding that she fix a grade had bellowed, "Who do you think is more important to this university, you or Dominique Wilkins?" (Wilkins was a star on the basketball team.) Traumatized, Kemp twice attempted suicide.
In trying to defend themselves, Georgia officials portrayed Kemp as naive about sports. "We have to compete on a level playing field," said Fred Davison, the university president. During the Kemp civil trial, in 1986, Hale Almand, Georgia’s defense lawyer, explained the university’s patronizing aspirations for its typical less-than-scholarly athlete. "We may not make a university student out of him," Almand told the court, "but if we can teach him to read and write, maybe he can work at the post office rather than as a garbage man when he gets through with his athletic career." This argument backfired with the jurors: finding in favor of Kemp, they rejected her polite request for $100,000, and awarded her $2.6 million in damages instead. (This was later reduced to $1.08 million.) Jan Kemp embodied what is ostensibly the NCAA’s reason for being—to enforce standards fairly and put studies above sports—but no one from the organization ever spoke up on her behalf.
The NCAA body charged with identifying violations of any of the Division I league rules, the Committee on Infractions, operates in the shadows. Josephine Potuto, a professor of law at the University of Nebraska and a longtime committee member who was then serving as its vice chair, told Congress in 2004 that one reason her group worked in secret was that it hoped to avoid a "media circus." The committee preferred to deliberate in private, she said, guiding member schools to punish themselves. "The enforcement process is cooperative, not adversarial," Potuto testified. The committee consisted of an elite coterie of judges, athletic directors, and authors of legal treatises. "The committee also is savvy about intercollegiate athletics," she added. "They cannot be conned."
In 2009, a series of unlikely circumstances peeled back the veil of secrecy to reveal NCAA procedures so contorted that even victims marveled at their comical wonder. The saga began in March of 2007, shortly after the Florida State Seminoles basketball team was knocked out of the NIT basketball tournament, which each spring invites the best teams not selected for the March Madness tournament. At an athletic-department study hall, Al Thornton, a star forward for the team, completed a sports-psychology quiz but then abandoned it without posting his written answers electronically by computer. Brenda Monk, an academic tutor for the Seminoles, says she noticed the error and asked a teammate to finish entering Thornton’s answers onscreen and hit "submit," as required for credit. The teammate complied, steaming silently, and then complained at the athletic office about getting stuck with clean-up chores for the superstar Thornton (who was soon to be selected by the Los Angeles Clippers in the first round of the NBA draft). Monk promptly resigned when questioned by FSU officials, saying her fatigue at the time could not excuse her asking the teammate to submit the answers to another student’s completed test.
Monk’s act of guileless responsibility set off a chain reaction. First, FSU had to give the NCAA preliminary notice of a confessed academic fraud. Second, because this would be its seventh major infraction case since 1968, FSU mounted a vigorous self-investigation to demonstrate compliance with NCAA academic rules. Third, interviews with 129 Seminoles athletes unleashed a nightmare of matter-of-fact replies about absentee professors who allowed group consultations and unlimited retakes of open-computer assignments and tests. Fourth, FSU suspended 61 of its athletes in 10 sports. Fifth, the infractions committee applied the byzantine NCAA bylaws to FSU’s violations. Sixth, one of the penalties announced in March of 2009 caused a howl of protest across the sports universe.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Again this makes logical sense
Cruelly, but typically, the NCAA concentrated public censure on powerless scapegoats. A dreaded "show cause" order rendered Brenda Monk, the tutor, effectively unhirable at any college in the United States. Cloaking an old-fashioned blackball in the stately language of law, the order gave notice that any school hiring Monk before a specified date in 2013 "shall, pursuant to the provisions of Bylaw 19.5.2.2(l), show cause why it should not be penalized if it does not restrict the former learning specialist [Monk] from having any contact with student-athletes." Today she works as an education supervisor at a prison in Florida.
It may be sad that any university wishing to employ Ms. Monk is required to take extra special precaution to be sure she is not involved with athletes, it is entirely reasonable. She has a history of being involved with an academic scandal involving athletes in the past. It’s entirely analogous to using a person’s credit score (a past track record of credit behavior) when making decisions related to extending credit to that individual.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
More of the same...no wonder I didn't feel the need to finish this drivel the first two times I tried.
Everything stands on the implicit presumption that preserving amateurism is necessary for the well-being of college athletes. But while amateurism—and the free labor it provides— (“free” my ass) may be necessary to the preservation of the NCAA, and perhaps to the profit margins of various interested corporations and educational institutions, what if it doesn’t benefit the athletes? What if it hurts them?
Italics mine
Maybe he does understand the true purpose of the NCAA after all. Not the BS public purpose the NCAA touts.
In what world does an opportunity to participate in a sport and attend college with a scholarship NOT benefit the athletes?
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
No diferent than a University or company owning inventions created during employment
"Let’s start with the basic question," he said, noting that the NCAA claims that student-athletes have no property rights in their own athletic accomplishments. Yet, in order to be eligible to play, college athletes have to waive their rights to proceeds from any sales based on their athletic performance.
The end of this statement omits a crucial phrase. The complete statement should have been; “Yet, in order to be eligible to play, college athletes have to waive their rights to proceeds from any sales based on their athletic performance while participating in NCAA sanctioned events.” Nothing prevents former players from going out and marketing themselves for their own purposes independent of the NCAA.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Hausfeld said, the defendants in the Ed O’Bannon case have said in court filings that college athletes thereby transferred their promotional rights forever. He paused. "That’s ludicrous," he said. "Nobody assigns rights like that. Nobody can assert rights like that."
Yes they do. Routinely. An engineer patents an innovative process and those rights are retained for that patent by the company that engineer works for. That patent, like the likeness and performance of the athletes during their time as NCAA athletes belong to who they assign their rights to, either employer in the case of the engineer or NCAA in the case of the athlete.
That in no way limits the engineer from boasting on their resume that they were responsible for that patent. Nor does it prohibit the athlete from pointing to their performance during their time participating in the NCAA sanctioned events as evidence of ability.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What do ya know...
University administrators, already besieged from all sides, do not want to even think about such questions. Most cringe at the thought of bargaining with athletes as a general manager does in professional sports, with untold effects on the budgets for coaches and every other sports item. "I would not want to be part of it," North Carolina Athletic Director Dick Baddour told me flatly. After 44 years at UNC, he could scarcely contemplate a world without amateur rules. "We would have to think long and hard," Baddour added gravely, "about whether this university would continue those sports at all."
There’s a surprise…oh wait.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
If a significant band of football schools were to demonstrate that they could orchestrate a true national playoff, without the NCAA’s assistance, the association would be terrified—and with good reason. Because if the big sports colleges don’t need the NCAA to administer a national playoff in football, then they don’t need it to do so in basketball.
The NCAA already does not administer a football championship. In the past the NCAA did not sponsor a national playoff in basketball (NIT).
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
The olympics are not a good example.
For all our queasiness about what would happen if some athletes were to get paid, there is a successful precedent for the professionalization of an amateur sports system: the Olympics. For years, Walter Byers waged war with the NCAA’s older and more powerful nemesis, the Amateur Athletic Union, which since 1894 had overseen U.S. Olympic athletes. Run in high-handed fashion, the AAU had infamously banned Jesse Owens for life in 1936—weeks after his four heroic gold medals punctured the Nazi claim of Aryan supremacy—because instead of using his sudden fame to tour and make money for the AAU at track meets across Europe, he came home early. In the early 1960s, the fights between the NCAA and the AAU over who should manage Olympic athletes become so bitter that President Kennedy called in General Douglas MacArthur to try to mediate a truce before the Tokyo Olympic Games.
Ultimately, Byers prevailed and effectively neutered the AAU. In November 1978, President Jimmy Carter signed the bipartisan Amateur Sports Act. Amateurism in the Olympics soon dissolved—and the world did not end. Athletes, granted a 20 percent voting stake on every Olympic sport’s governing body, tipped balances in the United States and then inexorably around the world. First in marathon races, then in tennis tournaments, players soon were allowed to accept prize money and keep their Olympic eligibility. Athletes profited from sponsorships and endorsements. The International Olympic Committee expunged the word amateur from its charter in 1986. Olympic officials, who had once disdained the NCAA for offering scholarships in exchange for athletic performance, came to welcome millionaire athletes from every quarter, while the NCAA still refused to let the pro Olympian Michael Phelps swim for his college team at Michigan.
The Olympics do not have any relationship with an educational institution of any kind. The Olympics have no such desire to limit the benefits their athletes receive because their eligibility is based on citizenship rather than being involved in an academic pursuit at a particular institution.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
"Scholarship athletes are already paid," declared the Knight Commission members, "in the most meaningful way poss-ible: with a free education." This evasion by prominent educators severed my last reluctant, emotional tie with imposed amateurism. I found it worse than self-serving. It echoes masters who once claimed that heavenly salvation would outweigh earthly injustice to slaves. In the era when our college sports first arose, colonial powers were turning the whole world upside down to define their own interests as all-inclusive and benevolent. Just so, the NCAA calls it heinous exploitation to pay college athletes a fair portion of what they earn.
Yes, the Knight Commission statement is over the top with the proclamation that a scholarship is definitively THE best possible compensation, however that does not change the fact that the athletes are compensated.
Oh good, we can close this drivel filled article with once again likening NCAA athletics to slavery.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
There Spak...
I’ve now climbed the mountain and made it to the end of this article. Apparently I have unlocked the #consideredallevidence achievement badge.
Nowhere in the later part of the article does the author Taylor Branch provide any compelling reason to pay the athletes.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
You are so much smarter than Taylor Branch
I suggest you quit your current job; they already aren’t paying you enough. Instead you should become a historian and writer. After all, you’ve just completely nullified ever argument that a pulitzer prize winning, MacArthur Genuis Grant Awardee, and Finalist for the National Book Award made.
He’s an idiot incapable of making sensible arguments, and you know everything. I surrender.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Oh, come on
Nothing’s unassailable in cyberspace, no matter how many accolades any author has racked up. You know this! Baconway met your challenge of seeing it through to the end, and did an excellent job of countering the points of view put forth in your boy’s article.
No need for sour grapes here, brother.
the main problem I have with his review of the article is that
not once does he give the author credit. Not once does any piece of the article make him think more critically. Not once has he encountered any idea he hadn’t previously considered.
Interesting debate and — ENLIGHTENMENT — are possible here, but not if everyone is so convinced of their own unassailable rightness. What’s the point of debate if the other guy’s unwilling to listen critically?
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Fair enough
It was a very thorough fisking, tho, and fisking is a tried and true internet technique.
I’m with you, tho, on your second ’graph, in general.
that's mostly true,
I did not give the author much credit. I did acknowledge and agree with the author that the practice of oversigning is awful and should be prohibited, but that’s about it.
Clearly the author put a massive amount of work into this article. There are tons of facts gathered and a large amount of research and outreach to the people active in these situations.
However the author’s conclusions he draws from the facts of his research are not the ones I would draw. In very few places does the author bother to consider the circumstances and reasons for the predicament the myriad of athletes in his story are in. In each case, there’s an explanation.
The article does a good job in shining light on the selfishness of the NCAA and some unfortunate circumstances that arise within its system. However there is nothing that implores me to take as evidence that the athletes should be paid, which is the author’s aim.
Interesting debate and — ENLIGHTENMENT — are possible here, but not if everyone is so convinced of their own unassailable rightness. What’s the point of debate if the other guy’s unwilling to listen critically?
You’re right here. After I had made it through the piece, I wondered if I had fallen into being too staunchly reactionary to the argument rather than being open to fair points by the author later on. If there are please feel free to bring them up.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
one of my best professors in grad school would always say that
the most important part of any project was identifying the question or the central issue. Once the problem or question is clearly defined, then everythign can be taken care of fairly easily.
I think one of the problems we all make here (and I’m certainly to blame for this as much or more than anyone) is that we aren’t all focused on the same issue or question. For example, I often say that the system is unjust. That’s broad and unspecific enough to be essentially meaningless. Looked at from a certain perspective, almost any “system” from college hoops to the ecology of polar bears to defense contracting and internet notoriety can be considered “unjust.”
I like to say that the players should get “paid,” but what I really mean is that I think the players at present have an unfair deal and that deal needs to change. Maybe providing them with money from inside or outside the university, isn’t what’s really necessary.
You at least are willing to agree on certain points that the players are not treated fairly, for example, when it comes to oversigning. That’s a start.
Trying to focus on relevant questions, two come to mind: In what ways are NCAA football and basketball athletes treated unfairly? And what should be done to fix those problems?
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
But you can also listen and think critically without changing
your initial viewpoint. You shouldn’t accuse a person of not thinking critically just because he didn’t agree with you. Also, as a health policy person, I am so sick of the word “fair.” It is misused too many times. What is fair to one person may not seem fair to another depending on what you mean. For example, is it fair that athletes get tutors and study halls when other students have to figure that out on their own or hire tutors? Thomas Sowell, an economist at Stanford, wrote a great series about this.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
Amen
I am so sick of the word "fair." It is misused too many times. What is fair to one person may not seem fair to another depending on what you mean. For example, is it fair that athletes get tutors and study halls when other students have to figure that out on their own or hire tutors?
This is what got me to start in on this topic in the beginning.
#Fair does NOT mean equal. Fair means that the rules apply evenly to everyone. It is FAIR that each school retains their gate receipts (as a simple example, there are complications such as visiting team’s percentage, etc). That does not mean that each team’s gate receipts will equal the same amount.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
by bconway6 on Oct 20, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is all too true
I think one of the problems we all make here (and I’m certainly to blame for this as much or more than anyone) is that we aren’t all focused on the same issue or question. For example, I often say that the system is unjust. That’s broad and unspecific enough to be essentially meaningless. Looked at from a certain perspective, almost any "system" from college hoops to the ecology of polar bears to defense contracting and internet notoriety can be considered "unjust."
This type of thing is very apparent in nearly all public discourse, politics especially. Most viewpoints make total sense if one starts with the right assumptions.
In what ways are NCAA football and basketball athletes treated unfairly?
This question assumes there is an agreement that the athletes ARE being treated unfairly. I don’t think the athletes are being treated unfairly as a whole. There are a small number of cases where I would agree, particularly related to oversigning and grey-shirting. I think it is not only in the best interest of the students that the NCAA amends these practices, but it’s also in the schools interest as well to keep up their facade about being all about student athletes. However I believe the fixes for these problems are far less radical than claiming the amateur athlete ideal is a farce.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Professionals - even great professionals - make mistakes, spak.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cold_Harbor
"Don't you'uns think this outlaw bit's done got out of hand?"
by ReadingRambler on Oct 20, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
fair point
but as delicious as bacon is, bconway6 is not Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Most definitely
haha.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Bummed
Awwl, bacon! You were pwning fools up and down this thread, imho, and then you left the door open for Spak to discredit all your work making great points here with this simple mistake:
and didn’t get more than half way through.
I still think most of your points in the thread remain well-crafted & good, but as a fan of the Internet Fight Game, I’m sad to see you lower your gloves a second & catch that round-house ;)
Hey, beats the usual false bluster of internet debates.
More to come as I slog further through the piece. Really there’s only so much blatant one-sidedness and gross misrepresentation that one can take before throwing the towel in on a particular article.
If slogging through the rest is required by this debate so be it.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Time to describe this thread in gif format:

Needs moar Dukes
Sean Lee is the only tolerable thing about the Cowboys
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Oct 19, 2011 8:42 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
HAHA thats awesome!
Are you suggesting, my good sir, that the thread may have been hijacked? PUSHAW!
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Thank you all
for the interesting distraction today. It was quite entertaining and very informative.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
Thanks!
It was some very good and informative banter!
Some new news.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7143961/ncaa-weighing-2000-payments-student-athletes

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