Three & Out: Shiny Objects, Boring Defense, and Fickle Voters
by Mike Pettigano on Oct 24, 2011 1:30 PM EDT
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Last night I starting thinking about why Penn State is ranked No. 19, when most other major teams with one loss are ranked higher. In today's Three & Out (formerly "Three Things"), I'll touch on a few thoughts I have as to how this may pass for acceptable within the college football poll voters. Usually I like to cover three unique topics in these posts, but today is three points within a larger theme.
Ooooooooooo! Ahhhhhhhhh! Penn State fans know that voters value a great offense all the time, but only value a great defense when your team doesn't have one. This was on full display in 1994, when the Nittany Lions had one of the top offenses in the history of college football, yet were constantly dogged by media and detractors as lacking a comparably-elite defense to shut down opponents as easily as PSU lit them up. I'll get to the defense thing in a sec. But look at some teams this season that have excellent offenses, yet mediocre defenses that are swept under the carpet by many pundits and voters, followed by Penn State's defense-first approach:
| (BCS) Team | Scoring Off. Nat'l | Scoring Def. Nat'l | Delta |
|---|---|---|---|
| (3) Oklahoma St. | 2 | 65 | (-63) |
| (5) Clemson | 12 | 51 | (-39) |
| (14) Nebraska | 20 | 54 | (-34) |
| (16) Texas A&M | 13 | 57 | (-44) |
| (17) Houston | 1 | 43 | (-42) |
| (25) West Va. | 18 | 57 | (-39) |
| (BCS) Team | Scoring Def. Nat'l | Scoring Off. Nat'l | Delta |
| (19) Penn St. | 5 | 89 | (-84) |
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Penn State deserves to be in the top 10 of the BCS right now. However, it's quite clear that the voters do not value a dominant defense in the same way they value a dominant offense. Penn State is the lowest one-loss BCS team in the rankings this week. Michigan, which lost to Michigan State by 14, is one spot ahead of PSU. Texas A&M, which actually has TWO losses so far, is ahead of Penn State, as is a Nebraska team that gave up 27 points at home to Ohio State (88th on Offense), 29 to Fresno at home, and 38 to Washington at home.
Of those teams in the chart, Oklahoma State and Clemson are in the best position for a BCS Championship Game appearance. But you know what? They have no shot in hell to get there. Why? Because you don't reach national championship games without great defenses. Sooner or later, the Pokes are going to have an off day on offense, throw a few picks, fumbles the ball, and not have the defense to compensate. Same with Clemson.
It's Cliche, but So Right. How many national champions have been offense-heavy teams with only mediocre defenses? Not many. How many have won the crystal football with unbelievable defenses, but only mediocre offenses? Well, I could name one for sure--1986 PSU--as well as 1997 Michigan, nearly every Alabama national championship, Ohio State 2002, LSU 2003, and so on.
This isn't to say that defense-first teams win championships with regularity. The vast majority of champions have won with a balanced team on both sides of the ball. But what you do not see are teams with high-flying offenses, with shaky defenses, taking home anything more than a conference title. Maybe it's easier to build a strong offense, rather than a strong defense. We've seen it in the non-AQ conferences like C-USA and the WAC, where teams light up the scoreboard, but can't really shut down an opponent when it's absolutely necessary.
It's kind of odd that defenses aren't given more weight when evaluating a team. When you think about it, more can go wrong on offense than on defense. That's my "off day" theory. On defense, it's rare that all the pressure falls on one or even two players to make the perfect play. Even a missed tackle here and there, it's likely there will be three or four other defenders right there (on a well-coached defense, such as PSU) to assist and make the stop. But on offense, if the quarterback doesn't make the right read, or the receiver drops the pass, or the running back fumbles the ball, that's it. There's not a second quarterback on the field to make an "I got it" play, or a second receiver right there to catch the dropped pass.
This is why Penn State, when push comes to shove, is actually better off having a dominant defense this season than a decent offense with only a decent defense. Dominant defenses rarely have fluky, "off" days. Offenses, however, tend to be set up for failure. Without perfection in almost every facet of the game, offenses make a ton more mistakes during the course of a game than the defenses do. Darrell Royal famously said that when you pass the ball, three things can happen, and "two of them are bad." Extrapolate that idea to the offense/defense discussion here, and Royal makes so much sense it's not even funny.
According to voters, Penn State needs more of this if it wants a higher ranking.
But It's Not Fun to Watch Penn State. Offensive football teams score enough points to win the games, and no one complains. The perfect example is in the chart up at the top of this post. Oklahoma State and Texas A&M played, with OSU winning 30-29. It was lauded as a great game, the always-fun "shootout." But you know what could have prevented either team from coming so close to victory or defeat? A defense that wasn't an afterthought. What if Texas A&M had Penn State's defense? Would the Aggies have won? Probably, since the final margin was so close anyway. Then flip that idea. What if OSU had Penn State's defense? Whoa, suddenly we're looking at a likely blowout in the Pokes' favor. See the difference between having a good defense or not?
Now let's apply the "score enough to win" idea, but reversed for a defensive football team like Penn State. Why is it okay with the voters for a team to score enough points each week to win the game, but it's not okay for a team to hold the other team to few enough points to win the game? It's really no different in my estimation, but that's not how the voters see it. Penn State beat Temple, Indiana, Iowa, and Purdue by allowing an average score of 17-10. And even though that's all Penn State needed to do to win the game, those wins are viewed unfavorably by the voters, media and fans, simply because the "wrong" side of the team wasn't playing well.
How do I know that Penn State is being held to a different standard than its higher-ranked counterparts in the BCS rankings? Because of all the one-loss teams, Penn State is ranked well below the average for squads with that kind of season record. Michigan is one spot ahead of PSU at 6-1, but the Wolverines lost by two touchdowns to Michigan State. I'm pretty sure losing to Alabama by 16 isn't the same as losing to MSU by 14. And my god, two-loss Texas A&M is ranked ahead of Penn State. Virginia Tech, which got blown away 23-3 by Clemson in Lane Stadium, is ranked a full seven spots ahead of Penn State.
Why? Because Penn State is on TV, but to the average fan or media pundit, they're not very much fun to watch.
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Interesting perspective...
and I largely agree.
All I can say is just keep winning and the polls will (have to) sort themselves out.
by Artiefufkin10 on Oct 24, 2011 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yup. When we run out of undefeated teams, I'll be concerned about the polls again.
One thing I know for sure – Alabama’s a better team than us, even if they lose one game. But if two of ‘Bama, LSU, Boise, and Oklahoma State stay undefeated, we won’t hit the top of the mountain. If we win out in that scenario, the best we could realistically be is 3rd. At that point, what’s the difference between 3rd and 8th?
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Oct 24, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with this to a large extent.
No way TAMU should be ahead of us, and I’m betting that’s a product of SEC voters propping them up for next year. But in fairness, we do have by far the largest delta there. If we were 60s or so on offense I think we’d see ourselves a bit higher.
"This is being a Penn State fan. We’ll prove it, or we won’t. It’s not about proving it to them, it’s about proving to ourselves."
by mvrck on Oct 24, 2011 1:52 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The good news is our offense looks like it might be coming into its own
And that is exciting.
by psu on Oct 24, 2011 1:53 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Great Post
Almost every pundit seems to hate defense. Unless they’re an SEC team then WOOOOOOOOOOO SEC BRICK WALLS WITH 4.1 SPEED.
by PartyVan on Oct 24, 2011 1:56 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
As an Iowa fan
this season has been incredibly frustrating. I have been forced to accept that our chances to win games from here on out depend almost entirely on our offenses ability to light up the scoreboard. I preferred the days when we had a great D and I could rest easily knowing that no matter what we would have a chance to win the game because our D could keep us in it. People should not sleep on you guys this year, great defense over there in Happy Valley.
He sired a baseball team... An orchestra, if you count the bastards!
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on Oct 24, 2011 1:59 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I know what you mean
Last year when our D was mediocre I was far far more uncomfortable watching PSU games than in years past and this year. I’d much rather struggle on O, knowing that the other team is going to struggle on O too. Last year in the Michigan and NW (1st half) games it felt like if the PSU offense made one mistake, we were done for.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
If my research is correct...
This year’s PSU team is very similar to 2009 Iowa.
Iowa had a top 10 scoring defense and an offense that was somewhere in the 80’s.
That team had a pretty good year.
Just keep winning.
by Artiefufkin10 on Oct 24, 2011 2:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
yep..stats here..
by Artiefufkin10 on Oct 24, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd also add that being more defensive minded isnt the only detriment
its the vanilla scheme we run defensively. Teams like LSU and Bama have gotten away with great defenses and avearage offenses simply because their defense is more “exciting”. Both are talented, but again, its more fun to watch for the voters than Penn State.
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again its only perception. PSU blitzes more than both of those teams
They may play a tad more press coverage, but PSU is much more agressive with its linebackers.
My grammer skills need improved.
well maybe not blitzing per se
but taking more risks defensively in certain situations. I bet you’re more likely to see an all out blitz with man coverage on the outside on 3rd and 7 from LSU that you are PSU. Because when PSU goes cover 3 and forces a 3 yard pass and punt on 4th down, it doesn’t get everyones panties as wet as a sack or forced bad pass due to the gamble the other teams might take.
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Bama
Man, that D is nasty.
I’ve not watched as much of LSU, so I can’t say a lot there. With Alabama, though, they actually seem more conservative defensively than previous years. Yeah, they’ll still get after it, and they can throw complex looks, but they’re just so fundamentally sound. They follow assignments and tackle. Usually for three downs at a time.
That’s why constraint plays don’t usually work against them. Nobody has enough success to make Alabama “cheat” anywhere, so you can’t make them pay for the cheating.
That’s why after Penn State’s loss to them, the one criticism I kind of laughed at was about playcalling. Now, the playcalling system may have been broken, but the actual plays called weren’t that bad. After all, it’s not like a freakin’ flea-ficker was going to work any better than a fullback dive.
by tuscaloosalion on Oct 24, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
vanilla maybe
but we have about 3 times as many turnovers as the Pittsburgh Steelers….that blows me away
Believe deep down in your heart that you are destined to do great things
hmm
who ever cut Kerry and Kyle’s hair needs to be fired.
by Artiefufkin10 on Oct 24, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Also,
As much as we criticize Oregon’s uniforms, they admittedly could only go up from what we see here.
Bloggin' at JoePasDoghouse.com
Never understood
how the Disney IP lawyers weren’t ALL OVER that ‘Donald Duck’ on the Oregon jersey sleeves.
On a related topic from this thread, I would love to see someone like Moo Moo or Kersey rock the 90’s-era flat top fade worn by McDuffie and Engram.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
They actually license it.
I don’t know the specific story of how they get to use it, but they are totally kosher and it’s totally Donald Duck.
Yeah, I get it. Our plan is to show up with our fantastic defense and let the chips fall where they may.
Derek Moye used to
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by skarocksoi on Oct 24, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
So wrong that it's so right.
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
#OccupyESPN
I actually disagree.
There ain't no point deficit can hold my defense down.
by ReadingRambler on Oct 24, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
A green face mask would have made a huge difference there
Some of the Oregon throwbacks weren’t bad, but you can have a yellow/gold helmet and a gold facemask.
I’m glad Penn State stopped using the ugly “2” on their jerseys.
Washingtonian and Penn Stater -- My blog features the triumph of hope over experience that is being a DC sports fan (especially the Nats) as well as the Nittany Lions, life in BeltwayLand and other things I find interesting. @doubleuefwhy
The criticism of the '94 defense
still drives me to the edge of apoplexy. It is a completely moot point. That damn team didn’t need a defense.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
Defense and special teams won the Rose Bowl.
Yeah, I get it. Our plan is to show up with our fantastic defense and let the chips fall where they may.
by jesse. on Oct 24, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That defense was actually pretty decent.
Oh, the sun shines bright on my Pennsyltucky home.
by ReadingRambler on Oct 24, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
A couple other factors
I agree with this post for the most part, and I think it makes an important disclaimer, namely that the point is not that PSU should be in the top 10; rather, that the ranking system is still too heavily based on perception.
Another thing to consider: Some of the “good” wins by teams in front of Penn State are wins that only looked good at the time. The Oklahoma wins over Florida State and Texas might not really be that good. Michigan’s win over Notre Dame looked good at the time, but now might be no better than a win over Iowa. Same with Oregon’s win over ASU.
Again, the point isn’t that Penn State should be ahead of those teams, but that the “eye test” is the worst test of all. The eye test led to the conclusion that witches blighted crops and killed cattle.
Of course, Penn State fares somewhat better in the computers, which don’t care one lick about style or “eye tests.” That’s why even for a technophobe like me, when it comes to polls or (especially) NCAA Tournament Selection, I say just give in to the computers.
This is also why I hate Jay Bilas more than any rational person should.
Penn State lost to Alabama and
the voters killed them – how many spots did PSU drop?. Has anyone one else been treated so shittily in the polls? Its pretty tough to climb out of that hole.
As far as Nebraska is concerned, the voters must think they are still in the B12. Next year when reality strikes in voter time, Nebraska will be treated like the B1G team they now are.
Its hard to be a PSU fan and not vote Dominant Defense. However, I voted Dominant Offense. 1994 was a very fun year. The polls obviously bias their votes to the nintendo offensive. I like to please my masters. Thus Dominant Offense.
Yo fumo español
1994
was a great year. Certainly out of the norm for PSU. I have posted that I sensed it could be great before the season started; same with 1986. However, 11-1 in 2005 came out of nowhere.
A great defense will keep a team in nearly every game. Of course with a great offense you are never out of a game even when behind big early (See Illinois 1994.). I personallly prefer the great defense-if nothing else it goes with our classic unis.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
Preseason polls
They’re the cause of all of this.
FACT: 95 percent of all SEC “quality wins” come from victories against early season conference foes with propped up preseason rankings.*
*All facts drawn from an irrational, hate-filled individual’s own thoughts. This still will never stop me from doing the wanking motion every time I read that any school from Mississippi is ranked in the preseason top 25, or that something called a South Carolina plays football, and apparently better than Penn State.
by ChrisHarrell's_stache05 on Oct 24, 2011 3:01 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Well, also post-season bowl games. SEC does decent there too
SEC had about what…a .500 record in bowls last year. B1G was about what…a .375 in bowls?
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
unreal, i had this exact convo with my dad at the bar saturday night
Someone was saying on TV how good LSU must be to have beaten Auburn so badly. Auburn stinks on ice this year. It drives me nuts, the SEC love. Do they have one or two great teams a year, sure, but the rest of that conference is trashbag material. Look at all the teams that were supposed to be great from the SEC this year. Auburn, South Carolina, Mississippi State, Florida. None of those teams are really that good, yet Bama and LSU will continue to get credit for annihilating them as though its any more significant than Oregon annihilating Cal or Wisconsin doing the same to Nebraska.
If we beat OSU this year, ESPN will tell you its not a big win because they are down this year. Yet they will make Alabama/Tennessee appear to be the toughest game in history.
Even the SEC is not immune
from the ravages of preseason polls. Auburn’s ending up as odd man out of the 2004 MNC boiled down to basically one factor – a low preseason ranking. JoePa thought it was such a travesty that he lost his voting privileges in the poll for refusing to vote the BCS winner #1. Certainly, Joe knows a thing or two about getting screwed over in the polls.
Not negating anything said above about the SEC lather at the WWL, just piling on the stupidity of using preseason rankings for jack squat.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
by PSU_Buch on Oct 24, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with the thesis of the article
But I will disagree about A&M, VTech, and some others being ahead of us. I agree with that/those rankings.
Needs moar Dukes
Sean Lee is the only tolerable thing about the Cowboys
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Oct 24, 2011 3:11 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Va Tech ahead, really? have you looked at heir results? A & M? 2 losses and they dont look like as good of losses as before. Ok St no. 3? with no defense?
who has okie st plyed that plyed defense. OSU has given up under 24 [pts one time, to arizona. Louisiana laffeyette and tulsa both scored over 30
My grammer skills need improved.
While I agree with you about A&M & VT
Ok St is in a BCS conference, undefeated. They belong ahead of us.
Fire Dan Snyder
A&M also has a vastly better offense than us
Basically, superior offense + average D > Superior D + ~average O
Also, Baylor is a better win than anything we have. So is Texas Tech. And losing by 1 to OK State is a more impressive loss than 16 to Bama. Losing by 4 to Arky certainly isn’t that bad.
On VT, well, they have one of the nations top RB’s, one of the top QB’s, beating Wake Forest & Miami is just as impressive as Temple & Iowa, if not more. The Clemson loss looks horrid though compared to Bama
Needs moar Dukes
Sean Lee is the only tolerable thing about the Cowboys
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Oct 24, 2011 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree with nearly everything.
A 16 point loss to Bama vs. a 1 point loss to OK State? If those two teams played, Alabama does exactly what they did to MSU last year in the bowl. Not even close.
We lost by 16 to Alabama, but (and I say this without a hint of irony) we could have very well lost by 10 or less, and with literally 1 different call we could have had a halftime lead. They were better than us, but they didn’t blow us off the field by any means. Watch them play a bottom half SEC team (or even Florida)…it shouldn’t be allowed. Our 16 point loss to them might be the 2nd most impressive loss in CFB this year.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Good post, Mike. Of course the things that also count against us in the voters minds include:
1. A coach they perceive as “behind the times”/must go.
2. An unsettled QB situation…voters always seem to take that as a sign of weakness.
3. A 7-5 season last year…they assume carry over and don’t think you can get better.
4. The overall perception that the conference is “down” still/again.
5. A schedule that, except for ‘Bama, builds from weakest opponents to hardest so there isn’t a high-ranked opponent for us to beat to overcome the perception of the loss to ‘Bama.
6. A non-acknowledgment of how the defense performed against ’Bama (we didn’t do too badly comparatively speaking).
7. Just all around hate for PSU.
8. Our cycles of “rebuilding” versus “re-loading”. We haven’t been consistent in the 10+ wins per season for a bunch of years in a row.
And everything else you said. Good post, Mike!
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
we get 10 wins this year
thats 3 out of 4. Its a start
Predicting Penn State's Offensive Scripts since 2005!
Funny quirk that may not have been seen:
After the Alabama loss Penn State (1-1) received 18 points in the AP poll.
Three weeks later Penn State (4-1) received 9 points in the AP poll.
Bloggin' at JoePasDoghouse.com
16-10 over Indiana
and 14-10 over Temple will do that
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
by hbeach08 on Oct 24, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
I forget how many points we left on the field vs. Indy (17? 24?)
And yes, we still looked sloppy against Temple (& needed some 4thQ 4th-down conversions to squeak the win), but it bears noting that the Owls are rockin a Top Ten Defense of their own.
Temple D
Who exactly have they played besides us that is any good? And with that schedule they are still 5-3 and probably not getting a bowl bid withut a trip to the MAC Championship game.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
Marylol & Toledo
Needs moar Dukes
Sean Lee is the only tolerable thing about the Cowboys
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Oct 24, 2011 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
My thoughts when I read we were the lowest ranked one lost team
Were “Eh, somebody has to be..”
We have won, and probably took longer to get back in the top 25 than we should have, but I feel like you are using the eyeball test essentially for part of your analysis for this article.
Look, most of us are on the same train with SAHKARILINA’s impending doom, and Michigan’s inevitable collapse as examples, but until they lose, why would people move us ahead of them? I realize we fell hard after Alabama, but what else did pollsters have to go on? They can’t see the future…they don’t know that Alabama was going to destroy everyone else until this point. What they had to go on at the time was the fact they turned the ball over 57 times against a vastly inferior opponent the week before travelling to Happy Valley so they seemed vulnerable, so I understand the drop.
Just think it is a little pre-mature to go to the Penn State should be ranked higher argument. Let’s keep winning, the rest will take care of itself, we have a game against a previously ranked team, a team that has owned the conference and still has the perception of a “quality win” if it happens, and then two more ranked teams…if we are still at 19 then…then repost this article as a reply to my comment and I will eat my own foot.
i mentioned this is a fanshot/post the other day
in defense of NotCarlotta, but it bears repeating. Look at many of those teams ahead of us in the rankings and tell me what makes them stand out as being better than PSU? I mean look at their wins AND losses. We dont have any real quality wins, but neither does Michigan, Houston, Nebraska, South Carolina, VaTech, Texas A&M or KState (who will likely have at least three losses by this time next month anyway, based on their upcoming schedule).
Polls are what they are, we know that. But for the sake of argument and discussion there is no reason a Penn State fan cant look at the rankings as currently defined and ask, “Wait, what exactly have all these other teams done to warrant more respect than us?” If you look, the answer is generally “nothing.”
by swiggy04 on Oct 24, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
In a lot of cases too we give more credit to the voters than perhaps we should
in that 1. it’s in many ways a popularity contest and 2. there are voters like Mark May who would gnaw off their own hand instead of vote for PSU as they should be.
Regardless…I don’t think we’ve done a whole hell of a lot to warrant a ranking higher than we are. I’d say we’re within 2 or 3 of our right position but if we can win against Illinois, Nebraska, and tOSU we’ll be much higher going into the Wisconsin game.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
i agree mostly but
I don’t think we’ve done a whole hell of a lot to warrant a ranking higher than we are.
This is true, though my point is more that I don’t think the teams ahead of us have done a hell of a lot to warrant a ranking higher than we are, either.
I agree with you
but revert back to “Popularity contest”, etc. No…they haven’t done a whole lot either.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
agree
and I think that the common answer is overwhelmingly “nothing” and as a fan yes, I could sit here until I am blue in the fingers and type about why we should be higher but at the end of the day like you said it is what it is and if we take care of business, the rest will take care of itself because there are a lot of teams in front of us that aren’t going to fall very soon. (I’m lookin at you HBC)
PSU 09
I said it a few weeks ago about WVU.
I could not for the life of me figure out why they were ranked and PSU was not. Now they’ve been exposed.
Yep.
Ranked in AP, Coaches, & BCS, despite the fact they got crushed at home 47-21 by LSU (ok) and 49-23 at Syracuse (no excuse at all for that), and own “impressive” wins over:
Marshall (H) 34-13
Norfolk St (H) 55-12
Maryland (A) 37-31
Bowling Gr. (H) 55-10
UConn (H) 43-16
So they give up over 25 points a game…they’ve played away from home twice and got crushed once and barely survived & gave up 31 points against a team Temple shut out there…got killed at home against the only good team they played…so yeah, I can definitely see why they should be ranked!
If I could only have one
It depends. Do I get a mediocre other one or terrible other one?
Because a mediocre offense and great defense can win a MNC. A mediocre defense and great offense needs Vince Young in order to have a chance.
But a bad defense with a great offense gets you mid-00’s Texas Tech. Sure, you get the crap beat out of you by good teams, and usually drop 1 or 2 per year you probably shouldn’t, but you always win at least 7 games and go to a bowl. Bad offense with great defense gets you 2004 Penn State.
GO IOWA AWESOME, now and forever, unless PSU sees them in the B1G CG
Beat jNW
Great Offense and Mediocre Defense
We had that in 1994-and as far as I am concerned we at worst shared the MNC. Obviously under the present set up we would have played Nebraska for it.
FTR-I gave up caring about what other people think about my team a LONG time ago.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
94 PSU and 05 Texas really break the mold, IMO
1994 PSU’s offense, while they were still in college, would have formed a very decent 2nd string NFL offense.
And 05 Vince Young, for all of his early college and professional mediocrity, was the best offensive college player I’ve ever seen. Not career, not as a pure QB, but best individual player for a season. Yes, it helped that the Nintendo 12 played no defense and neither did USC, and I do think PSU would have contained him well enough to win, but he was that good.
Without question I’d take a great offense and bad defense over a great defense and bad offense. Games with good teams won’t be as interesting, but there would be more wins.
GO IOWA AWESOME, now and forever, unless PSU sees them in the B1G CG
Beat jNW
There is room for concern about being the last one-loss team.
There’s a lot of football to be played, and I do NOT expect this scenario to play out, but what if every team except Alabama ends up with one loss and Penn State wins out (the least likely part of this scenario)?
Penn State would be 12-1 with a 3-1 record against teams that are currently in the Top 13 with one loss to the #1 team way back in September. Would Penn State deserve a rematch against Alabama in the BCS Championship (in the Sugar Bowl no less)?
My initial reaction is no, but a 12-1 record might make me seriously reconsider a LOT about the character of this season. The problem is PSU has a lot of ground to catch up, and I don’t see them leaping over a dozen one-loss teams to get the #2 spot. At least the AP poll doesn’t count: maybe the coaches would love JoePa enough to get them in the title game in New Orleans.
And yes, as long as I’m fantasizing about a 12-1 season I call dibs on the “Unicorn Parking Only” spot in front of the Sugar Bowl.
Bloggin' at JoePasDoghouse.com
by J.Schnauzer on Oct 24, 2011 4:15 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
You will absolutely get a fight for that spot
A hundred thousand BSD’ers will all be riding their unicorns to that game.
by jtothep on Oct 24, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Speak for yourself
I plan on taking my flying car.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
by PSU_Buch on Oct 24, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm taking Scarlet Johansen
Yeah, I get it. Our plan is to show up with our fantastic defense and let the chips fall where they may.
by jesse. on Oct 24, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Do you mind if I dance with your date?
by jtothep on Oct 24, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Under the circumstances?
Not at all.
Yeah, I get it. Our plan is to show up with our fantastic defense and let the chips fall where they may.
"wif" your date.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Oct 24, 2011 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
watch it live!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaJhLyDhsgc
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
by letsgopsu on Oct 24, 2011 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If we get to the Sugar Bowl against 'bama for #1,
I’ll definitely go just so I can pimp slap Jay Barker all over the place, take his wife (Sara Evans) back to my motel, and rock HER world to celebrate sweet revenge over the ’79 Sugar Bowl.
At the newly christened
Mercedes Benz Superdome.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
DAVID TAYLOR
Oh, the sun shines bright on my Pennsyltucky home.
by ReadingRambler on Oct 24, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
great poast
It is frustrating to see that defense is not flashy/appreciated by the media and fans. A high-scoring game is being pushed in the NFL as well…as it is what sells ratings, tickets, etc.
PSU will be on the outside looking in this year, but our last four games are the most difficult (in succession), excluding the beatdown we received by Bama.
Many – if not all – of the teams above PSU are bound to lose by the simple fact that they play one another this year. If PSU wins out, they will move up, but I don’t think we have a shot in hell of going anywhere higher than a BCS bowl. Too many dominoes need to fall in our favor for that to occur…
It will be an exciting end to the college football season, but it futher reiterates why a playoff is desperately needed.
Overheard on Finebaum:
“Who has Alabama played aside from Penn State?”
I’m humbled and honored, you crazy Auburn fan.
Bloggin' at JoePasDoghouse.com
by J.Schnauzer on Oct 24, 2011 4:43 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I think it was coming from a caller,
not Finebaum himself. He’s a massive Alabama homer.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
He did though,
a couple of weeks back, mention that he was recently in the car within earshot of our radio broadcast. He flat out called it one of the finest he had heard. The power of Steve and Jack cannot be underestimated if it can reach Finebaum’s black heart.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
by SubLime on Oct 24, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Homer
or just one who likes to stir up controversy. The mentions of him in Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer didn’t make him seem like a total homer-more like a total ass.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
I've had a copy of RJYH sitting around, waiting to be read
Looking forward to getting to it. What did you think of it?
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
I don't think it was Finebaum..
it was a caller.
Trust me, Finebaum’s 2-faced enough that if PSU finishes with a respectable 9 wins or better, he’ll bruise his elbow patting Bama on the back with that factoid. Despite writing article after article of scathing hyperbole directed at PSU/B10
by Artiefufkin10 on Oct 24, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
The beauty of a CCG is that....
….WHO GIVES A FLYING F*&^% WHAT WE ARE RANKED!
Just win your division and you play your way to a BCS game.
AP voters: “Screw ’em!!!!”
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
by hbeach08 on Oct 24, 2011 4:50 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
This is pretty much the truest story ever.
I love divisional play right now.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Oct 24, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
B I N G O!
- and I’ll rec any ‘Legends of the Fall’ quote/photos
" When you cross that Blue Line, you are mine...Across the Blue Line, it's all football. " " And what you need to do in your life is paint Blue Lines everywhere. " - Joe Paterno 2009
by BlueWhiteLife on Oct 24, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
One of my friends made an excellent point years ago.
Since there is no playoff, there really is no national champion, contrary to what people think. Like my friend said: Win your conference. Go to a BCS bowl. Win that. You had a great year.
He’s right.
What good is scoring 62 points
If you allow 69?
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
I remember my wife long ago asking me,
“Why are those people in the stands holding up a ‘D’ and a Gate?” I almost cried.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
After MSU's defeat of Wiscy on Saturday, picture this scenario:
We actually play MSU in the first Big Ten championship game. When we joined the conference in 1993, the powers-that-be tried to manufacture a rivalry game between us and Sparty, and we all know where that went. Now imagine us STILL playing Sparty in the last unscheduled game of the season, a conference championship game. Think that wouldn’t create a legitimate rivalry: We beat you in the first conference championship game.
Just sayin’.
NOOOO!!!!!!!
That just assured that tonight I will have nightmares.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
Pro-Offense Bias
Auburn last year had a pitiful pass defense (I think they were 102nd). Oregon’s wasn’t a whole lot better. Yet voters had no problem sticking them in the championship game.
Meanwhile, TCU had the top ranked defense the preceding two years and yet was stuck playing “big, bad, physical Wisconsin.” Needless to say, they won.
Effective defense usually wins, but it isn’t “sexy.” So long as ESPN is able to both televise the BCS games and provide the main “objective commentary” about who ought to be in those games, I seriously doubt you’ll see a shift in the opposite direction.
THIS
is the single biggest challenge to the integrity of the sport. ESPN has a vested interest in the positive-perception of conferences with whom they have a contractual relationship. You cannot “make the news” and impartially cover it.
by mushdamma on Oct 24, 2011 8:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
You mean something like this?
http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2011/7/18/2280795/bruce-feldman-espn-sports-entertainment
/shameless plug’d
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Oct 24, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Excellent analysis, Mike. Of course, Penn State getting hosed in the polls is nothing new to any of us. Hey, had some fun with a colleague who is a typical Michigan doucebag fan. We were in the break room while the Joe Paterno episode of Big Ten Icons was on. Of course, my colleague immediately starts ranting about the 30 game win streak meaning nothing since PSU didn’t play anybody blah blah. To which I replied, you know, Jim, Johnny Majors won more national championships at Pitt than Bo Schembechler ever won at Michigan. Stunned silence. Which, of course, led to, so just exactly who was Michigan playing during that time frame that didn’t suck out loud? Gave me a nice warm feeling all over.
by MB in MI on Oct 24, 2011 6:20 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Thank you, Artie. When we first moved to the Ann Arbor area, saw people wearing “Michigan: The Harvard of the West” t-shirts. Thought it was a joke but apparently not. Guess that tells you all you need to know about Michigan fans.
Jokes on them..
trying to describe themselves with a better school. I would never describe PSU has being the “blankety blank of the North East”
by Artiefufkin10 on Oct 24, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This!
" When you cross that Blue Line, you are mine...Across the Blue Line, it's all football. " " And what you need to do in your life is paint Blue Lines everywhere. " - Joe Paterno 2009
by BlueWhiteLife on Oct 24, 2011 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I once wore a T in Michigan that said....
“Michigan, the Michigan State of Michigan of Michigan State”…no one understood.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Oct 24, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Penn of Western PA?
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
Only if Penn
is the Penn State of Eastern PA.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
it's a cirlce that goes round and round and round and round and round and round
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
At Penn
they wear “Not Penn State” t-shirts. An ex of my wife who went to Penn had one; it helped lead to the end of their relationship.
FTR-I went to Penn Law but became aPSU fan while there. So obviously I have never owned or worn such a piece of clothing.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
The way I explain it to people down here -
Penn is Ivy League, Penn State has the football team. Guess which one I care more about?
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Oct 24, 2011 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
When I Went to Penn Law
People in my home town outside of Boston asked me all the time "How’s Joe Paterno doing?’
An Aside-The Vice Principal of my high schooll played football at Brown after serving in the Army during WWII. He was a QB. I hope you can guess who beat him out for the starting job.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
Actual (somewhat paraphrased) dialogue...
Me: “Ahhhh, I went to Penn State, I’ll never watch Rudy.”
Biz Mgr: “Sean, come here for a sec. Hey, Smee says he’ll never watch Rudy because he went to Penn State.”
Sean: “Hey, that’s OK, I have a good friend who went to school there. Stayed with him for a few days when we were younger.”
Me: “Really?! That’s cool. Where did your buddy live?”
Sean: “Right off campus. Thirty-somethin’ street…”
Yep.
*
Penn State is the Penn State of America
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Oct 25, 2011 3:49 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
awesome.
With firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right
- A.Lincoln
by SarcasmJam on Oct 25, 2011 6:10 AM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions
Rec
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
As Joe always says
Pay attention to the details and the rest will take care of itself (or somethin’ like that)
we're all here, but we're not all there
PSU is ranked #19 because of their schedule and performance against mediocre teams, not because they play defense
PSU doesn’t have anything close to a quality win this year. (just because we set the bar so low after a decade of losing to Iowa doesn’t make it now a quality win, nor does beating Purdue at home by 5, etc.) What is PSU’s best win this year?
The Alabama game was just as non-competitive as last year, and they barely escaped against Temple and Indiana (who has lost their other 3 B10 games by an average of 31 points a game). Those things have a lot more bearing on where PSU is ranked than because they have a more defensive minded approach.
I’m satisfied with the fact they are taking care of business and winning the games, and I think the ranking is appropriate. If they can scrape together something like a 10-2 record I think they will get all the credit they deserve.
by mundyscorner99 on Oct 24, 2011 6:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Okay
I’ll listen to your arguments about a lack of quality wins. However, if you think the Bama game was just as non-competitive as it was in 2010, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
A Garden State Nittany Lion...
"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make." - Michael Weinreb
by Mike Pettigano on Oct 24, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with mundyscorner
and while you’re right that we played Bama closer this year than last year, the score of that game vis a vis Alabama’s other games is deceiving. Bama put on the brakes a little bit; Nick Saban is a lot of things, but he’s not the kind of guy to run up the score on Joe in Beaver Stadium. But the Tide has no such conscious about running it up against SEC foes.
We have to beat at least one quality team for me to complain about anything. At this point, there’s still a reasonable chance that we finish 7-5, though personally I expect 9-3.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Or maybe we're better than those teams they've crushed.
Why would Alabama try to throw the ball to score more points when Saban knew well and good that we still had a fine passing defense? If Alabama “put on the brakes”, it was not because Saban’s too classy to screw with Joe Paterno.
Oh, the sun shines bright on my Pennsyltucky home.
by ReadingRambler on Oct 25, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
we'll never know if we're better than teams we don't play
Maybe you’re right and we’re better than other teams Bama has played, but who the hell knows. I just think it’s impertinent to argue that we’re better than SEC teams we haven’t and won’t play b/c of some scoring-based transitive property of football.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
We're better than all SEC teams because Little Round Top.
Oh, the sun shines bright on my Pennsyltucky home.
by ReadingRambler on Oct 25, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Voters
Also seem to think that in order for a team to be jumped in the polls, they have to lose. It’s like they can’t change their opinions from week to week about a team. I don’t if it’s some sort of hubris where they can’t admit they were wrong about a team, but it’s really stupid.
by speedomike on Oct 24, 2011 7:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Voters do whatever the hell they want to satisfy their agenda.
Look at 1994:
We beat Michigan. Jump to #1.
2 weeks later: #2 Cornfuckers beat #3 Colorado. We absolutely destroy O$U 63-14. Cornfuckers are moved to #1.
1 week after that: We beat Indiana by 6. Writers move Nebraska to #1 in AP poll.
Later that season: Nebraska beats a lousy, LOUSY Oklahoma team 13-3. The polls don’t change.
Voters will move teams around to satisfy their own prejudices and biases. And sitting here typing this, it just occurred to me that the system is so corrupt now that I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these votes aren’t bought.
That Is Why
I stopped carign about polls a long time ago. I know how good my team is just by watching them. Ansd unlike the pollsters i see every play of everygame (unless someone schedules a wedding on the date of a game). FTR-My daughter (who is not a big college football fan) has been warned that I do hold the purse strings here.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
To quote Kijana Carter from that season,
“Man, Oklahoma sucks!”
Ew, she's presenting like a mandrill!
I think PSU has a great shot at 10-2 and not sure I felt that way when the season started. Seems like the O line is playing much better and if McGloin can take care of the ball, I believe they’ll be in great shape. Illinois, Nebraska and Ohio State all look like very winnable games and Wisconsin looks a lot less scary all of a sudden. Gee, wonder if the Denman kid will want to go to MSU now.
And, more importantly.....
Rob starts this weekend.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Oct 24, 2011 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
would not suprise me in the least.
Have to keep McGLoin thinking he has to prove himself. Keeps the gunslinger at bay.
My grammer skills need improved.
Can't Afford to Start Rob
He has no confidence at this point. Every remaining opponent (including Illinois) is too good to just throw away aseries or two.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
Mike, I mostly agree...but at this point I just dont think it matters
We have been barely squeaking by in almost every win. If we win this week, based on the other games on the slate (and assuming no upsets of teams that are ranked close to us) we will probably be ranked 17. After the bye week (though I havent checked the schedule of all the teams ahead of us), we will probably be ranked in the 13-15 range. Thats really not bad considering the internet almost esploded a few weeks ago when PSU was barely getting by teams like Temple. Lets all chillax and just try to enjoy this weird-bumpy-fun ride we are on. It we somehow get to the tOSU game at 9-1, people will have noticed.
by RitterPSU on Oct 24, 2011 8:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ritter, this isn't just a reply to you, but to everyone who thinks I'm griping just about PSU's ranking...
the point of this article was to suggest that, overall, good offensive football teams are given more attention by media, specifically voters, than good defensive football teams.
I’m not really complaining about where PSU is ranked. Just that it helps illustrate my point that teams who can shut down opponents aren’t held in as high regard as those who light up their opponents, even if they in turn give up a ton of points.
A Garden State Nittany Lion...
"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make." - Michael Weinreb
by Mike Pettigano on Oct 24, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
I think the big ten’s problem this year (and PSU’s more specifically) is that some SEC schools also have really good (if not better) defenses, but they also have ok-to-good offenses, so we are marginalized because someone else is doing what we do just as well, AND scoring some points in the process.
right
Good observation
A Garden State Nittany Lion...
"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make." - Michael Weinreb
by Mike Pettigano on Oct 24, 2011 9:15 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions
In 2002 OSU barely got by just about every team on their schedule.
They won the National Championship. It would be interesting to see where they were ranked each week.
They played a good schedule early, which quickly moved them up the polls...
OSU started at No. 13.
Crushed Texas Tech in the opener. Jumped to No. 6.
Beat No. 10 Washington State two weeks later. Somehow stayed put at No. 6.
A Garden State Nittany Lion...
"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make." - Michael Weinreb
by Mike Pettigano on Oct 25, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
PSU ranking.....
Oops, Mike, I think you may have overlooked one thing that the pollsters didn’t ~~ the strength of the PSU schedule….. Let’s see the final win/loss record and rankings then….. Right now, bowl rankings, all of ’em, are all but meaningless….
What's going on
with the twitter sigs in this thread?
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