What is a Grand Jury Presentment?
I found this in the comments section of the PennLive article about McQueary saying he didn't just turn and run, by a commenter named MediaConsumer. I've been wanting to write something like this the last week, but I figured this is better and more concise than I'm capable of producing, so I'd just copy and paste.
May I suggest people understand the word "summary". Hopefully readers will take the time to understand that the 23 page Grand Jury report "summarizes" the 3 years of the grand jury investigation. It is not appropriate to expect that a "summary" includes all of the details of such a lengthy investigation.
It seems it may also serve to understand the intent of the Grand Jury. A Grand Jury does not "convict" people of crimes. Approach varies by state but a Grand Jury generally has more members than a trial jury and is focused on hearing the outcomes of investigations to decide if there is enough evidence to "indict" an individual. The Attorney General then reviews the Grand Jury findings and proceeds accordingly based on the laws of their state.
In the US, those charged of a crime enter a plea in which they admit guilt or declare innocence. Based on this plea and other factors, the legal system can then proceed to trial. In the US, we as citizens are presumed innocent until we face trial and convicted by "a jury of our peers".
This legal approach is designed to protect our individual and collective freedom and is referred to as "due process." In any situation, as in this one, there is an expectation that the media "report the facts" to the public at large. Unfortunately, the modern media has become much more about "telling stories" than "reporting facts". The media is a "commercial" concern, not a regulatory or governmental concern, and therefore "reports facts" and "tells stories" which are in the best interest of their commercial charge which is to generate profits.
It is our responsibility as citizens to understand the facts in this and any other "story" the press communicates. With regard to trials, the only time we as citizens have a voice in anyone's guilt or innocence is when we sit on a jury. The media, however, has an extremely loud and influential voice with regard to public opinion because they tell stories every day and, in modern times, are involved in many more "opinion pieces" than "reports of fact".
As in any consumer situation - "buyer beware". Some members of the press have stated that "in this horrific case, due process just doesn't matter." Beware of such anarchist statements. Don't let the press gain even more power than they already have. Due process is one of the fundamental concepts that defines our freedom.
Here's what I'll add.
1. The Attorney General does all they can to AVOID putting details in the presentment. The more testimony they include, the more substance it gives the defense attorney to attack and discredit. If the presentment is not the "bare minimum" required (phrase of the week), they're doing it wrong.
2. It does no one any good to parse language in the presentment, unless that language has quotation marks around it. An anonymous commenter there said something I've heard elsewhere:
Yeh, the grand jury report states "The graduate student was shocked but noticed both Victim 2 and Sandusky saw him. The graduate assistant left immediately, distraught."
The words "left immediately" pretty much says that the graduate student did not stay long enough to stop it, but left immediately.
The words "left immediately" were used by whoever wrote the summary. Perhaps they didn't feel it necessary to include exactly what action McQueary took in their summary, since it has very little to do with the charges, and might give Sandusky's defense team more substance to try to impeach McQueary at trial. Maybe they never even asked that question. Maybe they just made a poor choice of words. Either way, assuming that because it says he "left immediately" that means that he took no action whatsoever belies a pretty fatal misunderstanding of exactly what you're working with.
This principle also applies to exactly what McQueary told anyone else he reported to, and exactly which authorities he spoke to. We don't know. We really don't. I know a lot of people have paid lip service to this idea, but people generally seem to nod to this fact much in the same way that they treat anything that comes after the phrase "having said that."
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Comments
well, crap, I get the O names all mixed up
still love you, Octa. And I’m glad you’re back.
And I still wish there was a delete button for comments.
Fire Dan Snyder
I forgive you
after all, it’s a #greatdaytobeabadger, right?
/pukes
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Nov 15, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
LOL
I love the use of that. Cheers me up every time. Thanks to TME for introducing me to that hashtag a while ago.
I even posted it directly to OBrien on FB today…he of course ignored it. As I would were I in his shoes.
Fire Dan Snyder
I'm actually in Wisconsin now
today I ate some cheese curds
#greatdaytobeabadger
#fatinwisconsin
Today is the day I died inside 11/9/11
The thought of that
curdles my stomach.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 16, 2011 8:54 AM EST up reply actions
I melt for cheesy humor.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 16, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Cheddar be sure it is funny.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 16, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Look, we need to stop milking this
Let's go State
Beat Wisconsin!
by jman07 on Nov 16, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Gouda one!
I'm not rationalizing - I'm being totally irrational
by GoodOleDays on Nov 16, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Alright, time to stop this Jack
Lets get back to talking about why Joe is such a Munster.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
Follow @134Lounge
by skarocksoi on Nov 16, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this makes me bleu
My grammer skills need improved.
by BMAN13 on Nov 16, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Proud to be American.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 16, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
just like the rest of us old Goats
My grammer skills need improved.
by BMAN13 on Nov 16, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I havarti said this
But I think Joe was the patsy in this whole thing.
With firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right
- A.Lincoln
by SarcasmJam on Nov 16, 2011 6:28 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Why cacio just give it up?
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
The media is hounding Joe in this situation
as the Roquefort their opinion Swiss worth.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 17, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
Funny you should post this
I accidentally flipped my radio to Mike Wise (who I already thought was an idiot before this) on my lunch break today. Had it on just long enough for him to suggest that anyone who still backs Paterno should read the grand jury summary because it is “a complete and unbiased account of what happened.”
At this point I’m not sure if people really don’t understand the point of the presentment, or if it’s just convenient for them to pretend to not understand.
Both, indeed.
Because people are stupid.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
It's because people want the Reader's Digest/McLite
version of things. God forbid they be required to think independently . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 16, 2011 8:55 AM EST up reply actions
If you can't read it and understand it in one bathroom session
it’s not reading.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Nov 16, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
yeah
that report on War and Peace was pretty tough for me too.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
Follow @134Lounge
by skarocksoi on Nov 16, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Certainly several media members falll squarely into the latter category.
Some of these folks have covered the legal system extensively. John King of CNN, who advanced the dominant and fact less narrative today, comes to mind.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
This needed to be pointed out.
The presentment is filtered discourse, and filtered with a specific goal in mind — winning conviction of those indicted.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
If I were a "writer" or "analyst" and I didn't know this
I wouldn’t need it to be pointed out. I would seek this information myself, so I didn’t end up looking like a goddam asshole when I started talking (hopefully figuratively) out my ass. I mean, seriously, wikipedia takes 5 seconds and you can get it from most phones. No excuse for anyone.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Yeah, but if you were in the media, ignorance would be your most powerful tool.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
by psume06 on Nov 15, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
One of many of thousands of things that’s also been on my mind this past week.
Not that it helps damaged children past or future, but a 4th grader could tell you the telephone game aspects of these separate information exchanges contained therein:
- what McQueary told his dad
- what McQueary told Joe
- what Joe told Curley
- what McQueary told Curley/Shultz
Grand Juries have a very interesting role in our justice system, important role. Thinking about them has me thinking about how to report suspicions in the future.
The fact that this hasn't gotten more recs is upsetting to me.
Seriously, people. Let’s go.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
Just Gave One
I have been a civil trial lawyer for 27 years so I can say with confience that this is an excellent explanation of what a grand jury presentment is. It certainly isn’t a transcript of the proceedings; that would be thousnads of pages.
Reputation-Vile Thing! (Othello)
I'll rec this too
I guess I didnt really know what all a grand jury did even though it is a term heard frequently in the news. I guess I always thought a grand jury was just a jury that had gained “elite” jury status.
"Stats from the spring," he said when handed the numbers. "I can take those down to the spare bathroom in the house. We can put them to use down there."
- Paul Rhoads
Unpossible!
The media said Joe was covering this up, therefore it’s TRUE!
by Tailgate Shogun on Nov 16, 2011 7:00 AM EST reply actions
Another part of this GJ presentment
Not a single bit is admissible as evidence in court. Any and all people that testified to the Grand Jury will have to do so again in court. The GJ is used to get an indictment, arrest warrant. It is just gathering of evidence, enough to bring someone in. Any evidence obtained will have to he presented to court and found admissible and most if not all testimony will have to be presented in court to be admissible. What GJ’s are used for, at least from what little my engineering background tells me, is for wide ranging crimes, where numerous victims can be sought or numerous instances of the crime can be investigated. It is a tool withing the process where witnesses can be subpenaed (sp) instead of cops going around and visiting them and then either getting answers or bringing them in. Actually, I know very little, this is just what I always thought GJ’s were used for in PA. It is also very difficult for a GJ NOT to be able to bring an indictment. The investigation has to be pretty frivolous for an indictment not to come down because the prosecuter doesn’t have to use any negative testimony in the presentment.
My grammer skills need improved.
by BMAN13 on Nov 16, 2011 8:11 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
And let's not forget the prosecutor owns the GJ process.
He defines the questions to be asked, decides how robust an answer should be (more on that in a sec), does not have to deal with defense attorneys, etc., etc., etc.
I have been trying to convey this about GJ questioning:
Pros: “Tell me — what color is your car?”
Witness: "It’s green with khaki — "
Pros: “Hold on! Hold on! I am asking ONLY about the color of your car. Body trim, interior — don’t want to know about any of that.”
Having that kind of control can elicit incomplete answers. See above re McQueary’s alleged statement “I left immediately.” He could have said, “I left immediately — after ensuring no further activity would take place.”
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 16, 2011 9:02 AM EST up reply actions
Rashard Casey.
Not sure what it was at first (doubt it was a GJ), but the way the charges and incident sounded to us…the general public…it seemed pretty certain that he was guilty. But some people knew more, one of whom was Joe Paterno. Joe stuck up for Casey, subjecting himself to much scorn, ridicule, and derision in the process. I honestly thought Joe had botched it too and was nuts for defending him.
Then the criminal justices system was allowed to work its process and Casey was ultimately found to be not guilty. There’s a lesson here…a lesson I wish I had remembered earlier with this current scandal.
I am sorry that I’ve judged prejudged McQueary way too harshly and Joe, too. I am going to let the legal system do its thing and then pass judgments.
Speaking of Rashard….he’s one former player I really wish were speaking out publicly right now in defense of Joe.
by J Breezy on Nov 16, 2011 12:04 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Yes, none of this happened in a vacuum
Do people have any idea how many reports he’s heard about legal and academic problems with players and coaches over the years? And how many times his patience for the process and trust in other people who are in positions to investigate has shown him to be fair and justified? There’s an intergalactic chasm between treating a potential legal issue carefully and patiently and covering up a crime.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Nov 16, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd for "intergalatic chasm"
which I initially read as “intergalatic orgasm.” Woo-hoo!!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 16, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Whatever happens between galaxies
stays between galaxies
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Nov 16, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
What happened with Rashard
is that a GJ in Hobokken found there not to be enough evidence to indict. I guess the bar’s security camera showing the asshole cop attacking Rashard as he tried to walk away was pretty tough even on a GJ. It was funny because he was charged with assaulting a policeman and aggrivated assault. There were snippets getting out, like the character of the cop and some witnesses from the bar who spoke out but everyone villified Rashard Casey because he beat up a cop, you know, trustworthy fellow, everyone believed the cop’s story.
My grammer skills need improved.
Damn, Rashard Casey really should have spoken out during this.
Joe took considerable flak for refusing to suspend him, and had people writing articles about how Penn State was just like every other school and valued Wins over doing what was right. When it turned out that Casey was not even charged by the grand jury, that stigma persisted for many – so much so that I’ve seen some message board comments THIS WEEK citing his refusal to suspend Casey as the moment they lost faith in Paterno.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Nov 16, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
Which just proves that even after justice is served...
…and your actions were proven to be correct and appropriate you still can’t undo all the damage that was already done.
And this is about a bazillion times worse than the Casey incident.
It is any configuration of letters
plus “illion” worse. Flamillion. Jajillion. And so on.
People treat this news like I treat other news that I’m only sort of interested in. I read the headline. Sometimes, I’ll open the story and skim.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
So a blonde walks out of a restaurant with her date,
sees a newspaper headline that reads “20 Brazilians Killed in Landslide”, and bursts into tears. Her date tried desparately to console her, but she sobs and sobs. Finally, after about ten minutes she calms down. He asks her, “Why are you so upset?” She stares at him and says, “Why are you NOT upset?! Do you not know how big a number a Brazilian is?”
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 16, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
And I thought I had heard them all...
No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Nov 16, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How about this one, Paige?
Three blondes walked into a building. You would think at least ONE of them would have seen it . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 17, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
"Stats from the spring," he said when handed the numbers. "I can take those down to the spare bathroom in the house. We can put them to use down there."
- Paul Rhoads
Wow
you just somehow connected both my points and made me laugh at the same time.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Octa, the benefits of a Liberal Arts education
are many!!!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 17, 2011 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
rec'ing for laughter at work!
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the Big Ten...or just lose the sweater vest.
Thanks, all!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 17, 2011 9:21 AM EST up reply actions

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