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Outsider's View of PSU and the National Narrative


I am a 65 year old Tennessee graduate and fan who's only ties to Pennsylvania was a year spent in Sayer, Pa in 2002. My father was a Judge and political figure in Tennessee and I attended law school there for a time. Dad was a past president of the UT Alumni Association and I know something about the love of a university and it's football program. I know first hand how those institutions can sometimes protect themselves to the detriment of others but I do not believe that is what was happening in State College in the wake of Jerry Sandusky

Perhaps some people can dismiss those who object to what is being touted in the national press from PSU alumni and students as misplaced loyalty but they can't dismiss it from an outsider on those terms. I have no ties or particular love for PSU or JoePa. But I am appalled at the knee jerk reactions of much of the media and political figures who have created a rush to judgment of Mike McQueary and Joe Paterno and the good people at PSU.

I will tell you why after the jump. See bottom of post for the last update

Star-divide

 

A Grand Jury Report is a summary of allegations designed for the sole purpose of justifying an indictment. 

It is in not meant to be  a fair or complete description of testimony or facts. It contains no full quotes, no Q & A, no exculpatory evidence, no cross-examination, and only the most damning parts of testimony presented in a manner that is most damaging to the target of the investigation. The testimony that makes up the basis for this document has not been subject to review by the defense. Yet so many media people use the allegations in this document as if they were unassailable FACT and the whole story without any regard for the damage it might do to those who testified as "credible witnesses". 

The Grand Jury Report makes credible witness Mike McQueary out to be some kind of coward as if he ran from an old man brutally sodomizing a defenseless 10 year old boy who was pleading for help. 

But is that what happened? I doubt it. 

Suppose that Mike McQueary's testimony went something like this: 

"I entered the locker room on March 1 2002 hearing noise like a slapping sound from the showers. I didn't think much of it and went to put some shoes in my locker. I passed by the entrance to the showers on my way out and much to my shock I saw my former coach and mentor and a man both I and the football community held in the highest esteem behind a young boy of maybe 10 to 14 years of age with the boys hands against the shower room wall. It was steamy and there was water running but I thought I might be seeing anal sex or sodomy due to the noise and positions. They saw me immediately and both turned toward me. Jerry yelled "Hey we were just horsing around" "I can't be certain what I saw because I was in a state of shocked disbelief.  I could not wrap my mind around the idea that a man I though was like a saint was actually abusing a young boy after all the good I thought he had done and my personal knowledge of him since I was a boy. The two of them turned off the showers and grabbed their towels and I went into a nearby office to call my father for advice from where I could observe them."

"I thought about ordering them not to leave but the boy seemed to be on friendly terms with Jerry and happy to be there. I could not get that first impression out of my head but the shock of it made it difficult to be certain and I couldn't think straight. I did not know if I should try to stop them from leaving and did not know if I had the right to do that. It would be my suspicion vs the word of this Penn State icon and former heir to Joe Paterno. JS seemed very embarrassed and the boy seemed unconcerned as they hurriedly left the locker room after dressing."

"From the time I first saw them to the time I went to make the call it was only seconds. It all happened so fast but I was mortified to see a naked grown man I respected in such close contact with a young boy where it seemed to me something of a sexual nature was happening. I was stunned and shocked so I spoke to my Dad for several minutes to calm down and get my head straight and then went to his house to discuss with him what if anything I should do. On his advice we went to see Joe Paterno early the next morning and I told him this same story. I then spoke to the AD and VP in charge of campus police and told them what I told JoePa and what I am telling you now." 

The prosecutor would then summarize this testimony into - Graduate assistant witnessed a 10 year old victim suffering brutal anal intercourse and ran to call his father. JoePa seems to summarize what he was told as "some kind of inappropriate horsing around of a possibly sexual nature". The AD and VP summarize it as inappropriate horseplay and they inform Second Mile and tell JS that he must not bring any kids to the PSU locker rooms again. Remember they don't know who the victim or kid in the shower was. 

Most people will describe a boy in an age range like 10 to 14 or 8 to 12 years old because it's tough to guess the exact age of children. The DA will use the youngest age mentioned because the younger the boy the worse the perception. It's like using "anal intercourse" when given a choice of "something of a sexual nature, fondling, or sodomy"

I suppose the VP or AD should and could have gone to Sandusky and asked him to take them to the boy and then asked him what happened (and maybe they did) or they should have had their campus police do it. If the boy seemed scared or if he begged for assistance McQueary's response would be one thing but if he behaved as if nothing were wrong it would be something else. If the activity stopped immediately and they were dressing and leaving does McQueary have the right to hold them there without the 'victim' asking for help? Would the police hold them if the boy said it was all a mistake? Did McQueary know for certain the boy wasn't a foster child of Sandusky or a grandchild? We have not seen a diagram or picture of the locker room or McQueary's locker and the view and distance to the showers? 

Do we know exactly what happened? Can we can identify with a 28 year old graduate assistant who is shocked and dumbfounded by seeing his longtime family friend, coach and mentor in the showers with a boy and the possible confusion over what exactly what he was witnessing? Do you know exactly what you saw in fleeting seconds from some indeterminate distance through steam and water if one of the parties was a person you respected and even loved? Do you know how you would react?  

THE NATIONAL NARRATIVE and the rush to judgment based on a summary of allegations. 


So many professional reporters and talking heads like Mark May and Greg Doyle have rushed to judgement of Paterno and McQueary based only on this one sided and incomplete Grand Jury Report. The stupidity and callousness of the DA who made that report public without explaining it's purpose is apparent. He has caused the PSU Board Of Trustees to rush to judgment by firing the man who quite likely did the right thing and who has given a lifetime of service to Penn State University. His report has ruined the life of a reportedly fine young man who grew up in State College and loved his university by making it appear that he was a coward who ran away while a 10 year old boy was pleading for help as he was being brutalized. So many people outside of PSU have formed an indelible opinion based on this Grand Jury Report that what has been done can never be undone. The DA however is making quite a name for himself that could advance his political career. 

I could be wrong - but then again I could be right and none of us outside of those that have read the complete testimony of Mike McQueary know exactly what he said and even if we had he was not cross examined by a defense attorney who would likely get to the root of any confusion, doubts, and state of mind. Mike McQueary is not on trial in the justice system. He is on trial in the court of public opinion and no one speaks for him. He will not have a day in court to explain his version of events for a very long time while the career he worked so hard to build lies in ruins because he chose to speak up. If he had only kept his mouth shut none of what is happening to him now would be happening. There would not be a Fire Mike McQueary dot com website vilifying him and claiming he will never work again in the profession he loves and excels at because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

The moral is don't rush to judge what you do not fully understand. You cannot put yourself in Mike McQueary's mind given his personal history with JS, State College, and PSU, and there is no way we know the exact nature of what he and JoePa discussed or how he described the events to the AD or the VP. There is so much the Grand Jury Report does not tell us and what it does is by design totally biased. 

Watch out for the Governor who was leading this investigation for 1 year 3 years ago. He is trying to cover his ass as is the prosecutor who will use this case to further his political career if he can. The DA summarized the McQueary testimony to suggest the gist of what the prosecution wants to try to prove. We don't know exactly what was said and until we do we cannot judge Joe Paterno or Mike McQueary. That makes the firing of JoePa a complete travesty of justice for political gain and the reaction of the media and the public a judgment based on woefully incomplete information. 

And this is from and outsider who has no ties or loyalty to Joe, Mike, PSU or the State of Pa. 

UPDATES 

 

Legal Definitions - Presentment or Report and Indictment

A Grand Jury Report or Presentment is a Summary of Allegations designed to justify an INDICTMENT 
Legal Definition – PRESENTMENT, crim. law, practice. The written notice taken by a grand jury of any offence, from their own knowledge or observation, without any bill of indictment laid before them at the suit of the government; 4 Bl. Com. 301; upon such presentment, when ’proper, the officer employed to prosecute, afterwards frames a bill of indictment, which is then sent to the grand jury, and they find it to be a true bill. In an extended sense presentments include not only what is properly so called, but also inquisitions of office, and indictments found by a grand jury.

Legal Definition -indictment n. a charge of a felony (serious crime) voted by a grand jury based upon a proposed charge, witnesses’ testimony and other evidence presented by the public prosecutor (District Attorney). To bring an indictment the grand jury will not find guilt, but only the probability that a crime was committed, that the accused person did it, and that he/she should be tried. District Attorneys only introduce key facts sufficient to show the probability, both to save time and to avoid revealing all the evidence. The Fifth Amendment to the U. S. Constitution provides that "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment of a Grand Jury…" However, while grand juries are common in charging Federal crimes, many states use grand juries sparingly, and use the criminal complaint, followed by a "preliminary hearing" held by a lower court judge or other magistrate, who will determine whether or not the prosecutor has presented sufficient evidence that the accused has committed a felony. If the judge finds there is enough evidence, he/she will order the case sent to the appropriate court for trial

When reading these definitions it is evident that the DA presents only key parts of testimony sufficient to get a case to trial. This is meant to be the biased unchallenged most damning statements by witnesses without revealing anything like the complete testimony. And despite what any witness might provide under questioning by investigators or prosecutors, the testimony has not been subjected to cross-examination to determine things like 1) degree of certainty 2) circumstances of state of mind, distance, obscured vision by steam or water, position of the parties involved, or potential misconceptions.

Exact Text of the Grand Jury Report regarding Mike McQueary

This is called Finding of Fact and is under the Victim 2 section of the Report. 

We know the investigation did not turn up the name of this victim and there is no corroborated testimony. It is all from Mike McQueary about the incident and there is contradictory testimony about what was said to Paterno, the AD, and the VP. 
On March 1, 2002, a Penn State graduate assistant who was then 28 years old entered the locker room at the Lasch Football Building on the University Park Campus on a Friday night before the beginning of Spring Break. The graduate assistant , who was familiar with Sandusky, was going to put some newly purchased sneakers in his locker and get some recording tape to watch. It was about 9:30pm. As the graduate assistant entered the locker room doors, he was surprised to find the lights and showers on. He then heard rhythmic slapping sounds. He believed the sounds to be those of sexual activity. As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the showers. He saw a naked boy, victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant was shocked but noticed both victim 2 and Sandusky saw him. He left immediately, distraught. 

QUESTIONS on above statement: 

1) How far from McQueary’s locker to the showers? 

2) How could McQueary see penetration from a distance? Was there steam and water in the way?

3) Was there 20 seconds of this view? 15? Did JS and the boy see McQueary immediately and turn toward him

4) Did JS say anything to him?

5) How does a 6'4 grown man fit with a 10 year old boy who's head comes up to his chest while standing up in a shower? 


The graduate assistant went to his office and called his father, reporting to him what he had seen. His father told him to leave the building anc come to his home. The GA and his father decided the GA had to promptly report what he had seen to Coach Joe Paterno, head football coach of Penn State. The next morning, a Saturday, the GA telephoned Paterno and went to Paterno’s home where he reported what he had seen.

Joseph V. Paterno testified to receiving the GA’s report at his home on a Saturday morning. Paterno testified that the GA was very upset. Paterno called Tim Curley the PSU AD and Paterno’s immediate superior to his home the very next day, a Sunday, and reported to him that the GA had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy.

QUESTIONS: So did he say fondling or something of a sexual nature or Anal intercourse or Sodomy? 

Did he say "something that might have been sexual like anal intercourse"  or I am certain it was anal intercourse?

How certain was he of what he saw exactly? And exactly what was his quoted testimony? Did he alter his perception with time? 


Approximately one and a half weeks later, the GA was called to a meeting with PSU AD Curley and Sr VP for Finance and Business Gary Schultz. The GA reported to Curley and Schultz that he had witnessed what he believed to be Sandusky having anal sex with a boy in the Lasch Building showers. Curley and Schultz assured the GA that they would look into it and determine what further action they would take. Paterno was not present for that meeting.

QUESTIONS: So he told Paterno something of a sexual nature or fondling and he told the AD and VP it was anal intercourse? Somehow I doubt that. 

The defense will tear his testimony apart if he changed his account and I doubt he did. I think this is all the prosecutors summary aggrandized to get an indictment and sensationalize the event for the publicity. 


Notice these things about the Grand Jury Report
NO quotes 
NO Q & A 
NO ‘believes’ ‘maybes’ ‘could have been’s’ or ‘uncertainties’ 

Not a hint of confusion or lack of specifics as if McQueary was focused enough to completely understand and view everything. 

Without direct quotes we can’t know the language used and that makes it obvious that the DA or prosecutor summarized or interpreted the gist of the testimony

The summary suggests that Mike McQueary told Paterno, the investigators, the AD and the VP different versions of what he might have seen. That is how we know his statements in the later emails are likely to be more accurate than this Grand Jury report concerning "I made sure it stopped" and "I reported it to the police". The Grand Jury Report never says that McQueary or Paterno DID NOT follow up with the AD or VP on the status of the investigation. It is quite possible they were told by Curley of the VP Schultz that Sandusky put them in touch with the boy and he said it was all harmless horseplay. It is even possible that the boy was 16 and he consented which is legal in PA. 

This is a terrible report for the prosecution if it suggests to a jury that MM told different versions of what he saw – and it appears from the summary that he might have. That is a good reason for the perjury charges against Curley and Schultz. This also puts the DA in the headlines for a year or more as the guy going after a cover up. That's a huge boon to a political career. Just ask the former DA and current Governor. 

Everyone should read LET’S ALL FEEL SUPERIOR piece in the NYT and take the time to view this interview with JON RITCHIE on ESPN along with the GROWING UP PENN STATE piece.  These offer valuable insight from good sources on the nature of the current situation and the rush to judgment. 

If you have previously made up your mind about the Sandusky Scandal you now have a chance to reevaluate your position in the light of additional information and a clear definition of the Grand Jury Report and it's purpose. If you wish to continue to believe Mike McQueary is the weak cowardly enabler of more abuse that's your right too. I just want to wait until the testimony is revealed in full before adding my voice to the chorus of voices condemning a graduate assistant on the basis of this Grand Jury Report. 

A real irony here is that this part of the indictment will likely be the least useful at trial without an identified victim. And if the victim testifies it was all harmless horse play these particular counts of the indictment will not stand. That will make the entire involvement of the Penn State coaches, AD and VP a travesty of justice of incredible magnitude.

Friday Nov 25 Update -  I must add a link to this excellent IT WAS A WITCH HUNT AT PENN STATE piece that closely echos my sentiments about the situation. And a big THANK YOU to everyone who recommended this post and the 145 people who Liked it on Facebook and the many who left comments for a good discussion.

All the best to Penn State fans, students, and alumni and here's hoping the Nittany Lions beat the Badgers on Saturday and head to a BCS bowl after winning the Big 10,11,12 Championship game. Thank you. 

My hope is when all the facts are known Mike McQueary and Joe Paterno will be exonerated and recognized for doing the right thing in a terrible situation leaving much egg on the faces of the Board of Trustees, the Governor, and the DA who engineered their vilification for political reasons. 

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Comment 241 comments  |  21 recs  | 

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Thank you.

If you have any ideas on how we can make people actually hear and listen to this side of the story, we are all ears.

With firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right
- A.Lincoln

by SarcasmJam on Nov 18, 2011 1:36 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

And Go Sayre!

My wife was Sayre High School Homecoming Queen in 1993.

With firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right
- A.Lincoln

by SarcasmJam on Nov 18, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

your wife sounds...

…you know

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Nov 18, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

HOTHOTHOT...or cold

HOTHOTHOT…or cold…

"They stalk their prey to within two or three great leaps and then launch a lightning-fast charge, striking their prey. Victims are most often killed by suffocation with a prolonged bite..."--Hinterland Who's Who

by afields16 on Nov 18, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

She is.

.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts

by SarcasmJam on Nov 21, 2011 7:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Jam,

I went to school in Canton — but quite a few years before your wife was at Sayre.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 18, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Go NTL!!

PSU_Lions_84 – I graduated from Troy in ’88, mom spent 20 years teaching at Sayre HS!

by pd@gpc on Nov 19, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Class of 76 at CHS for me.

Loved growing up in that area!!! Going back home for Thanksgiving — can’t wait.

Drop me an e-mail — my work e-mail is on my profile.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 20, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Hey SarcasmJam

I guess that pointing everyone you can to the LET’S ALL FEEL SUPERIOR piece in the NYT and the interview with JON RITCHIE on ESPN along with some of the great stuff here on BSD and the GROWING UP PENN STATE piece would be the only things I know that can make this better. Other than that we will have to wait til this plays out as excruciating as that will be for PSU fans.

Then maybe a recall petition for the Governor and the States Attorney who published the Grand Jury Report without explaining what it is would be in order.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 18, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Sorry wrong link above

This is the proper link to the excellent JON RITCHIE video that everyone should watch.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 18, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

A voice of reason!

aurabass,

       Thank you for taking the time to post . Those of us that even whisper JP without first mentioning the victims are insensitive and myopic . For obvious reasons that is ridiculous.

by psu-lioness on Nov 18, 2011 2:49 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

100% Agree

This should be bumped IMO.

While everyone else speculates, I think I’ll wait until all the fact come forward before I rush to a judgement.

by Nittany_Vandal on Nov 18, 2011 3:09 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

More Like...

I support a college football team who wins most of their football games, and a football team who loses most of their football games

by Nittany_Vandal on Nov 18, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Stop making this about football!

This only proves that Idaho should also cancel their season (and perhaps team)

by The JuggerNitt on Nov 19, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

This should be main page.

http://twitter.com/tmaluchnik

by TJM5054 on Nov 18, 2011 6:37 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Got to agree that Mark May

comes off a the stiffest most pompous jerk on the air. It was his unbelievable condemnation of Mike McQueary that made me start to read more about the situation and eventually come to the conclusions I have about the rush to judgement. I believe he must have been exactly who the NYT opinion piece writer had in mind with his LET’S ALL FEEL SUPERIOR rant. Everybody should read that excellent piece with Mark May in mind

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 18, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Also, thank you.

Articles of support like this by people outside our community are uplifting and greatly appreciated. Many of us have not yet wavered, even with the media onslaught, in our faith that that Joe did all that was morally and legally correct based on the information he had.

by uforabin on Nov 19, 2011 11:58 AM EST reply actions   2 recs

Legal Definitions - Presentment or Report and Indictment

A Grand Jury Report or Presentment is a Summary of Allegations designed to justify an INDICTMENT
Legal Definition – PRESENTMENT, crim. law, practice. The written notice taken by a grand jury of any offence, from their own knowledge or observation, without any bill of indictment laid before them at the suit of the government; 4 Bl. Com. 301; upon such presentment, when ’proper, the officer employed to prosecute, afterwards frames a bill of indictment, which is then sent to the grand jury, and they find it to be a true bill. In an extended sense presentments include not only what is properly so called, but also inquisitions of office, and indictments found by a grand jury.

Legal Definition -indictment n. a charge of a felony (serious crime) voted by a grand jury based upon a proposed charge, witnesses’ testimony and other evidence presented by the public prosecutor (District Attorney). To bring an indictment the grand jury will not find guilt, but only the probability that a crime was committed, that the accused person did it, and that he/she should be tried. District Attorneys only introduce key facts sufficient to show the probability, both to save time and to avoid revealing all the evidence. The Fifth Amendment to the U. S. Constitution provides that “No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment of a Grand Jury…” However, while grand juries are common in charging Federal crimes, many states use grand juries sparingly, and use the criminal complaint, followed by a “preliminary hearing” held by a lower court judge or other magistrate, who will determine whether or not the prosecutor has presented sufficient evidence that the accused has committed a felony. If the judge finds there is enough evidence, he/she will order the case sent to the appropriate court for trial

When reading these definitions it is evident that the DA presents only key parts of testimony sufficient to get a case to trial. This is meant to be the biased unchallenged most damning statements by witnesses without revealing anything like the complete testimony. And despite what any witness might provide under questioning by investigators or prosecutors, the testimony has not been subjected to cross-examination to determine things like 1) degree of certainty 2) circumstances of state of mind, distance, obscured vision by steam or water, position of the parties involved, or potential misconceptions.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 20, 2011 12:50 PM EST reply actions  

Critical thinking

I’m abandoning the other thread as it’s getting difficult to even locate.

It’s fairly obvious to me that McQueary and to a lesser extent Paterno are the most important pieces of the state’s case, and that they have every possible incentive to make them both look as credible as possible.

With that in mind, I have a hard time believing that if McQueary and Paterno had done a bunch more than what is reported in the presentment, that the AG would not have wanted to put it in the presentment too. Understand?

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree to disagree

I’m fine with it. The people on the other side of me? Not so much, with the constant accusations of trolling and the like.

The problem, as I said near the end of that other thread, is that believing that Paterno acted in the character we all thought he had seemingly requires also believing that he was very clueless – not in 2011, but in 2002. Clueless enough to never ask McQueary for follow-up on what he actually witnessed when it was clear Sandusky was still hanging around campus and hanging out with boys.

I can’t make that leap.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

How I can make that assumption

1. McQueary was “visibly distraught”.
2. Nothing actually happened.

As to what he could have done? Lots. Gone to the state police (no, I don’t buy the jurisdictional force field argument, nor does anybody in the national media, for good reason). Gone to the media himself! Leaked it! Pretty much anything other than go to the guys in the university who had the most incentive of anybody to cover it up.

And you’re making a big assumption that Joe hadn’t heard about the 1998 investigation too, not even rumors. That seems unlikely given the observed behavior from him in 1999.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe has said he didn't know about the 1998 investigation.

That’s good enough for me.

You’re still making huge leaps in your logic. If McQueary had gone to the press and nothing came of the investigation, then wouldn’t McQueary be liable for defamation of character. You don’t just go calling the press about things or the State Police. I’m just saying that I’m withholding judgment until I have more facts. For everything you speculate, there is a counter speculation. You are not dealing with facts or all of the facts, so please quit acting like your argument is the only valid one.

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 21, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Facts

List them. Note, they actually have to be facts.

I admit when I’m wrong, which is more than anybody on the other side of this fence has done here, ever.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I listed a few below

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Also
I admit when I’m wrong, which is more than anybody on the other side of this fence has done here, ever.

Those are some pretty broad strokes you are using to paint with. Quite the hyperbole. I’m not immune to admitting that I’m wrong. I’m also not arguing certainties, which, by definition, limits the amount of times that I could be wrong.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes.

Nobody else in this thread, or other threads like this, has admitted they were wrong to me. That’s a more correct statement.

It’s very common for very argumentative people to insist that the other guy will never admit they were wrong. And then to insist that, of course, it doesn’t apply to THEM. So, that’s where we are. I’m argumentative, just like you guys. But I don’t call you trolls, and I did, just recently, issue a mea culpa on an actual matter of fact.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not calling you a troll

Actually, I defended your status as a ‘troll’. I believe it was either jesse. or Jugger that did as well the other day.

I’m cool with having discussions with you. Obviously, it gets a bit frustrating at times, but that’ll happen. And like I said earlier that initiated this thread, its good to hear viewpoints that run counter to your own. I also wasn’t accusing you of never admitting wrong. Thats part of the reason why I chose to engage you. I’ve seen that you are willing to do that. I was emphasizing your statement because I felt that it unfairly charactarized everyone that ever disagreed with you.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I also never said that you wouldn't admit when you were wrong.

I said you seemed to get frustrated when people don’t agree with you. We don’t have enough facts in my opinion to tell which one of us is right or wrong. But until I am presented with more actual facts, I am not going to change my opinion.

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 21, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Fact

Jurisdiction. I have stated in other threads to you that this is a very real and serious aspect to all cops positions with the state of Pennsylvania, and you immediately dismiss it.

by AriesGD on Nov 22, 2011 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Nobody else is buying this

not even the state police commissioner. It’s not fact; it’s fiction.

by M1EK on Nov 23, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Do yourself a favor

Call your local police and ask them about juridiction. Then when they tell you exactly what I have been doing.

Try educatiing yourself about the issues instead of just randomly talking.

by AriesGD on Nov 23, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Here I researched it for you

Statewide municipal police jurisdiction – 42 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 8953

§ 8953. Statewide municipal police jurisdiction.
        (a) General rule.—Any duly employed municipal police
     officer who is within this Commonwealth, but beyond the
     territorial limits of his primary jurisdiction, shall have the
     power and authority to enforce the laws of this Commonwealth or
     otherwise perform the functions of that office as if enforcing
     those laws or performing those functions within the territorial
     limits of his primary jurisdiction in the following cases:
            (1) Where the officer is acting pursuant to an order
        issued by a court of record or an order issued by a district
        magistrate whose magisterial district is located within the
        judicial district wherein the officer’s primary jurisdiction
        is situated, or where the officer is otherwise acting
        pursuant to the requirements of the Pennsylvania Rules of
        Criminal Procedure, except that the service of an arrest or
        search warrant shall require the consent of the chief law
        enforcement officer, or a person authorized by him to give
        consent, of the organized law enforcement agency which
        regularly provides primary police services in the
        municipality wherein the warrant is to be served.
            (2) Where the officer is in hot pursuit of any person
        for any offense which was committed, or which he has probable
        cause to believe was committed, within his primary
        jurisdiction and for which offense the officer continues in
        fresh pursuit of the person after the commission of the
        offense.
            (3) Where the officer has been requested to aid or
        assist any local, State or Federal law enforcement officer or
        park police officer or otherwise has probable cause to
        believe that the other officer is in need of aid or
        assistance.
            (4) Where the officer has obtained the prior consent of
        the chief law enforcement officer, or a person authorized by
        him to give consent, of the organized law enforcement agency
        which provides primary police services to a political
        subdivision which is beyond that officer’s primary
        jurisdiction to enter the other jurisdiction for the purpose
        of conducting official duties which arise from official
        matters within his primary jurisdiction.
            (5) Where the officer is on official business and views
        an offense, or has probable cause to believe that an offense
        has been committed, and makes a reasonable effort to identify
        himself as a police officer and which offense is a felony,
        misdemeanor, breach of the peace or other act which presents
        an immediate clear and present danger to persons or property.
            (6) Where the officer views an offense which is a
        felony, or has probable cause to believe that an offense
        which is a felony has been committed, and makes a reasonable
        effort to identify himself as a police officer.
        (b) Limitation.—Nothing contained in subsection (a) shall
     be deemed to extend or otherwise enlarge a municipal police
     officer’s power and authority to arrest any person for an
     offense unless specifically authorized by law.
        © Relinquishing authority.—Whenever a municipal police
     officer exercises any power or authority over any person or
     event pursuant to the provisions of subsection (a)(3), (4), (5)
     or (6), the officer shall relinquish authority and control over
     any such person or event upon the request of the chief law
     enforcement officer, or a person authorized by him to make the
     request, of the organized law enforcement agency which regularly
     provides primary police services in the municipality.
        (d) Immunities and benefits preserved.—Any municipal police
     officer who exercises any power or authority granted under this
     section, and the employing municipality of the police officer,
     shall have the same immunities from liability as would be
     applicable if the actions were performed within the territorial
     boundaries of the officer’s primary jurisdiction and the police
     officer shall be entitled to the same benefits of employment as
     the officer would possess if acting solely within his primary
     jurisdiction. However, when any municipal police officer is
     responding to a request for aid or assistance from a State law
     enforcement officer pursuant to subsection (a)(3) for purposes
     of workers’ compensation and allocation of liability for any
     death, injury or damage he may cause in the performance of his
     requested duties, he shall be considered to be an employee of
     the Commonwealth. All costs incurred by any municipality in the
     defense of lawsuits arising from the performance of any
     requested duties shall be borne by the Commonwealth. The
     Commonwealth shall provide attorneys to defend any lawsuits
     arising under this section. For purposes of compensation,
     pension or indemnity fund rights and other rights and benefits
     to which he may be entitled, the municipal officer shall be
     considered to be performing his duties in his normal capacity as
     a municipal law enforcement officer. Nothing in this section
     shall be construed to restrict the authority of any municipality
     to limit the exercise of any power or authority conferred on its
     police by this section.
        (e) Existing and future municipal police service agreements
     preserved.—Nothing in this section shall be construed to
     restrict the authority of any municipality to maintain current
     or to enter into new cooperative police service agreements with
     another municipality or municipalities for purposes including,
     but not limited to, describing conditions of mutual aid,
     assigning liability and determining appropriate costs of these
     cooperative efforts.
     (July 1, 1987, P.L.180, No.21, eff. imd.; Dec. 22, 1989,
     P.L.730, No.100, eff. 60 days)

by AriesGD on Nov 23, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It is always interesting

to see someone claiming to know what “nobody else” is buying as if he was the voice of all.

On it’s face that is such an indication of delusions of grandeur. The fact is that University police forces often have the same powers as their city and county counterparts even in larger cities like Knoxville. They even process their prisoners in the same lockups and put them through the same court system.

The ‘nobody else’ not buying the truth are as uninformed as M1EK.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 25, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Again

The part I don’t buy is that if Joe had called the state police 6 months later and said “I think our (university police) might have covered up an instance of child sexual abuse”, the state police would have said “sorry, we can’t do anything about that; the police you said might have covered it up have the jurisdiction”.

by M1EK on Nov 27, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Try to focus

Having something to call the state police about is the first issue and so far we have no quote or statement that is worth calling the state police. 2nd the state police have no jurisdiction PERIOD. Repetition of a fallacy does not eventually make it true.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 27, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

But But But

magical forcefield

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 28, 2011 6:13 AM EST up reply actions  

FACTS and admissions

In comments below these you talk about McQueary’s statements as if the Grand Jury report consists of statements made by MM. That is wrong. There are no statements by McQueary in the report

You state:“given the enormity of what happened, the grand jury presentment in and of itself is sufficient for us to understand that the ball was dropped here.”
That is wrong – we do not understand the ball was dropped because we do not know the facts about what MM told Joe, the AD or the VP so we have no way of knowing if a ball was dropped.

You accuse me of being inconsistent concerning statements. That is untrue and there is no admission that you were incorrect.
I see no admissions of being wrong

That’s three instances I can come up with quickly along with the idea that I am in some group inside a wall. That is incorrect too.

These are FACTS awaiting your admission.

I stated in the piece that spawned this thread that I could be wrong and that this is simply an alternate narrative with more merit than any narrative that takes the Grand Jury report as FACT instead of being a summary of allegations. I urge restraint in this rush to judgment of MM and JoePa and much of what I offer is admitted conjecture because we have very few facts to go on.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Not interested in this angle

I thought I had made it clear when I said that your logic could be used to defend Sandusky, and you said you weren’t willing to do that, that we could leave the “statements versus presentment” issue by the side of the road. If you want to take it up again, then you’re left defending Sandusky against being railroaded, too.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Obviously not

it would require an admission that you were wrong.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 22, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I will admit I was wrong on that

if you will admit that by your logic, we shouldn’t be attacking Sandusky, since we also have no sworn statements from him.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

To be clear

I was stating that if you want to hold to just sworn statements, you can ONLY get mad at Sandusky for showering.

by M1EK on Nov 23, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Clear it is

Reread the Grand Jury Report
Notice the quotes in the Victim 1 and Victim 4 sections of the report.

Now reread victim 2 and notice that the quotes are from Spanier, Curley and Shultz saying that McQueary testified to “horsing around in the shower” and “not that serious – no indication of a crime” but inappropriate.

I will assume the DA is responsible enough not to put quotation marks around remarks that are not direct quotes. At this point it is not possible to be 100% certain about anything further than totally inappropriate behavior of showering naked with young boys while making physical contact. For me that would be plenty to keep my grand kids and grand nephews away from Sandusky without the other allegations or the indictments and I would not support a charity that is headed by a man who does those things.

But nothing in my piece is designed to alter anyone’s perception of Sandusky. It’s primarily about the ruination of Mike McQueary based on a Summary of Allegations designed to indict Sandusky where the DA is not the least interested in explaining any reason for Mike McQueary’s action or inaction. That seems simple enough to follow.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 24, 2011 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Huge leaps

Your huge leaps are worse – you’re assuming that either things in the presentment are false, or that Paterno was really, really clueless.

I admit I don’t have all the facts – neither do you – which is why I talked about what you would have to believe (i.e. which things you would have to fill in) to believe Paterno didn’t know he should have done something more here.

He, himself, let’s not forget, said he wishes he had done more. With the benefit of hindsight. If it was impossible to do more, why would he say he wished he had done more?

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I am making neither assumption.

In fact, I gave a plausible theory that would show that Joe wasn’t clueless. Also, I never disputed any of the “facts” in the presentment. It seems you keep forgetting the purpose of the document and the limitations inherent in such a biased summary. To you last point: Is there nothing in your life that you can look back on and say, “Knowing what I know now, I wish I had handled that differently?”

But I am done with this. It’s like banging my head against a wall.

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 21, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I empathize with your experience here

I don’t know if we are faced with the purposely obtuse
or someone so self-righteous he is intent on playing “gotcha” with anyone who holds a different opinionl.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

The wall

I am banging my head against it too. The difference is I find myself on the outside of a very small wall around a very small group of people, and the people outside this wall are people who don’t have any obvious interest in getting this wrong, despite conspiracy theories to the contrary.

On this side of the wall, we know the same facts as you do on the inside of the wall. But we’re also willing to theorize about what has to be true in the “missing facts” category for your position to be true, and it’s not pretty.

Your theory isn’t plausible – it requires that Joe didn’t do what a smart person would do after being told the investigation revealed nothing to worry about – go talk to McQueary and find out there was, in fact, lots to worry about. At that point, you wouldn’t go outside the (now, obviously corrupt) chain of command? Really? If you wouldn’t, you’re not smart – and I know Joe is smart.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Also re: the wall

Notice that none of the actual writers on this site get involved in discussions with you folks on the inside of the wall, at all, any more.

After expressing opinions in the past that clearly put them on the outside of this head-banging wall.

Why do you think this is?

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably because they are busy writing

I dunno. Seems like a logical answer.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

It may be logical

but it’s not right. They just gave up quicker. I’m more argumentative than they are, is the only difference.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

It could be

or you could be right. Or neither of us could. Thats kinda the point

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

You are playing Monday morning quarterback here

With all of the evidence available in retrospect, it seems difficult to believe that anyone would not know all of this. The problem is, that isn’t the world we live in.

Lets imagine for a second a scenario in which Sandusky is not guilty. I don’t believe this to be true, but the possibility exists (even if the probability is low- 40 counts of child molestion, where theres smoke, theres fire).

But imagine it. Joe Paterno hears about something awful and makes it his personal mission to bring down Sandusky on second hand information. In the process, he takes down one of the most respected figures in State College, particularly for his work with the Second Mile. Sandusky isn’t some ordinary guy. He’s a highly respected figure. Somone who spoke at my girlfriend’s graduation- not as coach Jerry Sandusky, but as founder of the Second Mile Jerry Sandusky. Regardless, Joe goes against the judgement of his boss and the UP Police. He makes it his personal mission to assert that justice is done. And in the end, after assaulting a persons character in a public forum, they find out Sandusky was innocent. And Joe says ‘sorry’.

I’m not ok with that scenario either. There are reasons why boundaries exist. There are reasons why we have police to investigate crimes. There are reasons why we afford everyone the right to a fair trial in a court of law. Yes, guilty go free sometimes, and it sucks. But I’d rather a few guilty be on the streets than an equal number of innocents behind bars.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Just to further the point a little here

Imagine for a second that during the trial it is found that Joe did follow up. Repeatedly. That Joe did everything in his power that he could have reasonably and legally done. Finding all of that out won’t get him his job back. It won’t give him and his players a chance to finish out their season. It will do nothing to alter the course of these events. All of this because a rush to judgement without all the facts.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

But, and here's the important part:

if Joe had done everything I want him to have done, we would not have gotten this far. The state police would, in my opinion, not have just said “sorry, the magic jurisdictional force-field prevents us from even investigating the possibility of a cover-up of child abuse at Penn State”.

It may seem self-serving and completely hindsight and a circular definition to boot, but you asked me to consider hypotheticals. In my hypothetical world, Joe goes to the SCPD or state police when Curley and Schultz are clearly covering it up. That’s the Joe I believed in.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Can I just ask

why you are so sure that it would Joe would have thought that “Curley and Schultz are clearly covering it up”? I’m not saying they weren’t, just that, based on what I’ve heard so far, it isn’t clear to me that Joe should have known.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Nov 21, 2011 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure

His assistant coach, a grown man, came to him distraught. You don’t think Joe, a smart guy, would have gone back to McQueary and asked him what he saw for reals, and whether it was really serious?

That’s why I say that to keep the “Joe did what was right” narrative going you have to pretend Joe was clueless in 2002. Trusting the admin jerks who he didn’t like and didn’t trust (in other situations) over the eyewitness account of a guy who works for him and has no incentive to cover it up.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I think that is a long way from "clearly covering it up"
You don’t think Joe, a smart guy, would have gone back to McQueary and asked him what he saw for reals, and whether it was really serious?

I don’t know, it depends on the details of what McQueary said. He could have been “distraught” but still expressed doubt. Whose to say Joe didn’t ask him right then and there how serious it was?

to keep the "Joe did what was right" narrative going you have to pretend Joe was clueless in 2002

Or you have to believe that Curley’s actions (and possibly an explanation he gave to Joe) were consistent with what McQueary told Joe. Since we don’t know what, if anything Curley said to Joe afterward, or what McQueary told him (in detail) I don’t think anyone can be certain of this.
Trusting the admin jerks who he didn’t like and didn’t trust (in other situations)

I think it’s a big leap to go from disagreeing with people professionally to believing they are actively covering up child abuse. I don’t know I would have made that leap. Plus, you’re assuming that there was a cover-up. It is still possible that Curley and Schultz did what they thought was reasonable but still have that be the (really) wrong thing.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Nov 22, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This narrative

IF Joe had called McQueary, which a smart guy interested in doing the right thing should have done, and said “son, what did you see? Because the administration appears to have done nothing”, and McQueary told him something non-commital, then we’d likely have heard of that by now, and I’d likely have let Joe off the hook.

That’s not what apparently actually happened. Paterno just asked the guys in charge of the cover-up if they really investigated, in the best possible interpretation of that rumor from his camp, and they said “a-yup”.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough

but I respectfully disagree.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Nov 22, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

If MM was a grown man, why couldn’t he (or even his father) gone to another agency? Joe (and MM’s father) would have been presenting hearsay to another agency, where MM would have provided his first hand account. It still seems like too many people want to paint Paterno as the bad guy and not hold McQueary accountable for his lack of doing the same thing people say Paterno did not do. (Too many negatives there??)

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Nov 22, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

We don't know why

because we are not certain of what he saw or thought he saw – and it’s most likely he was not certain about a 10 or 20 second view from a distance through steam and water in a shocked state of mind.
What could he say but that he suspected sexual contact.?
The boy has not been identified. The fact that MM evidently was not put in a position where the young boy was crying for help or acting as if he were being abused. Maybe the boy – after leaving the showers seemed content to be with Jerry. Perhaps he even told MM it was just horseplay. We just don’t know any details.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 22, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

Not really looking for an answer – more just a frustrated statement b/c so many people think Paterno, with his 2nd hand knowledge, should have done more; while McQ, w/ his 1st hand acct, isn’t held as much to the fire.

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Nov 22, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Also

Thank you for your many informative, thought-provoking, and rational responses. I’m sure many in our PSU family enjoy hearing an “outsider” not criticize us for being Penn Staters.

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Nov 22, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think thats a reasonable thought

But the two main issues that I have are

1) It assumes that the State Police would have reason to believe that the UP police were either incapable of doing their jobs or part of a coverup

2)That Joe could sniff out a coverup.

I’m not convinced that the State Police wouldn’t have just accepted that the UP police had done their jobs adequately. They have to be careful about their resources- which is why they typically defer to the local cops in these types of investigative matters.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

As regards the last two paragraphs of your argument

I am not inside any wall and have no dog in this hunt other than disgust at a national media narrative that has decided the Grand Jury report is the complete and unbiased truth.

We don’t know what Joe did and it is completely plausible that he repeatedly asked the AD about what was determined. It is also plausible that the AD and VP tried to find the identity of the boy who told them nothing bad happened. They obviously communicated with Sandusky and told him not to bring boys to PSU again and took his keys to Lasch. They could have plausibly determined that this was the only viable course of action due to what McQueary told them including his confusion and doubts along with his suspicions. Suspicions are not facts and this situation probably seemed far from cut and dried given the possibility that MM was upset and distraught.

WE JUST DON"T KNOW

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 5:46 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You say: “But we’re also willing to theorize about what has to be true in the "missing facts" category for your position to be true, and it’s not pretty.”

That’s cool. Everyone is definitely entitled to their theories. Maybe they’ll turn out to be true. We just don’t know yet.

by P. Incaviglia on Nov 21, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Paige’s whole argument is that we don’t have all the facts.

by P. Incaviglia on Nov 21, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

THIS. so much this.

Anyone who says we have all the facts and can thus make a complete judgment on what happens is just flat-out wrong. You can speculate and make judgments based on what we do know, but we absolutely don’t know everything.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Nov 22, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

But we never will

We will never know everything – I’m not even talking about the reductio ad absurdium version of everything here. Does that mean we have no responsibility to do something about things we DO know?

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

What do we know?

This is whats important here. If this was a legal issue and not a moral issue, based on the facts that we have now there would be plenty of reasonable doubt (in regards to Paterno and McQueary. That’s even extended to Shultz and Curley and Spanier at this point).

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 22, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed

Actually, we do know enough to be fairly certain that Paterno and McQueary aren’t in trouble legally. But at the same time, everybody outside the wagon-circle, including a large number of people who are, in fact, in possession of all the facts despite claims to the contrary by circle-folk, knows enough to be fairly certain that Paterno did not do what he morally should have done.

So far, the inside-circle folk have repeated claims that have no basis in fact – the magic jurisdictional force-field, the claims about defamation and slander, etc. It’s not that the outside-circle folk aren’t aware of these defenses, it’s that they are almost completely unconvincing.

In other words, I know what the inside-circle folk believe. They, for the most part, have a mistaken impression about what the outside-circle folk are aware of. Fed by healthy doses of rationalization and wishful thinking.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Upon further inspection, I phrased that poorly

What I intended to say was ‘if this moral issue were actually a legal issue’. The point that I’m trying to make is that there are not enough facts about the moral issue to make a judgement. Thats kind of the point of the entire fanpost.

In response to your latter ‘jurisdictional force-field’, I presented a very specific scenario below.

I’d like to be clear. You seem to be painting a number of us as ‘JoePa defenders’ by using your ‘inside the circle’ argument. That simply isn’t true. The vast majority of us simply do not believe that enough facts have been presented in order to make an informed judgement about Paterno’s moral culpability.

Every piece of evidence you have presented to the contrary has been plausibly refuted. That doesn’t mean you are wrong. It doesn’t mean that we are either. What it does mean is that there is not nearly enough evidence to assinate the man’s character.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 22, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Plausibly refuted

I do not believe that to be the case. The jurisdictional force-field argument, for instance, was an attempt to refute, but it fails on the most basic of logical grounds.

The “we don’t have all the facts” argument is compelling, but ultimately too broad to be of use. As I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, one could ride that horse forever as we will likely never know every single fact. Does that free us from the responsibility to do the right thing with the preponderance of the evidence? No, I’d hope not, which leaves us to disagree about what that evidence shows.

In my case, as well as the case of every serious media outlet in the country, the preponderance of evidence shows us that Paterno should have done more. He himself has admitted that. The grounds for arguing otherwise are far more flimsy than you should be comfortable with, given that.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Jurisdictional force-field. My argument wasn’t that he couldn’t go to another department. My argument was that it is highly unlikely that the State Police would have done any investigating on their own. In order to do that they would either need to believe that 1)The UP Police were incompetent or 2)That the UP Police were involved in a consipiracy to cover up a crime. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I’d like to hear it.

You’re argument about a not all of the facts is a slippery slope. I’m well aware that we could ride the horse forever, but I’m not suggesting we do. What I’m suggesting is that we use reason and good judgement to determine how much evidence we need. List all of the facts that we know for certain in this case. I’m sure you’ll be surprised at how little there actually are.

Paterno has not admitted that he should have done more. He has admitted that he wished he had done more. There is an incredible and important difference in those two statements. He chose his words carefully.

“Serious media outlet”. Serious media outlets have been practicing yellow journalism since Pulitzer and Hurst had a pissing match that started a freaking war. ‘Remember the Maine!’ Remember, media outlets operate based on ad revenue. They have an ethical obligation to objectively report facts, but a financial incentive to incite reactionary rage. Good journalists exist, but they are the very small minority. Your argument that they are on your side weakens your case, in my opinion

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 22, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

“2)That the UP Police were involved in a consipiracy to cover up a crime.”

That’s exactly it. If Paterno was told they had investigated and found nothing to it, he should have gone to McQueary and said “I know you were distraught. What really happened?”. If McQueary didn’t waver, and it seems likely he did not, this is the point where you go to somebody outside your chain of command, and you have strong evidence (after all, this is the basis of the freakin’ perjury charge!)

As for serious media outlets, blaming the media is not an effective strategy. The media is a large group of organizations with very different experience levels, agendae, and masters. This is NOT AT ALL like what happened with the Maine. When the New Yorrk Times and Fox News and Grantland and ESPN and Dan Wetzel and Cory Giger and Gregg Doyel and Sara Ganim are arrayed against you, you’d have a very hard time picking out what particular bias they have in common (and please don’t try the lack of information canard; they’re by far better informed than most of the wagon-circlers here).

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

If McQueary didn’t waver, and it seems likely he did not

Emphasis mine. That word right there is enough to cast reasonable doubt. Combine that with a number of studies and documented evidence of people questioning what they saw in traumatic situations, and there is reason to believe that he may have waivered. That he may have questioned himself what he saw. I posted that hypothetical earlier as well.

Thats the point here. I’m not disputing your scenario. It is perfectly reasonable. But it isn’t the only plausible scenario. Plenty of plausible ones exist that exonerate both McQueary and Paterno. Until enough evidence comes out to eliminate reasonable doubt, my feet will remain firmly planted on the circle. That isn’t unreasonable. Actually, I think its exactly the opposite.

As for serious media outlets, how many of them reported on WMDs? And then years later recanted? Media bias exists. Look how many people have been crucified for simply saying ‘lets wait for the facts’. Thats a pretty strong tide to swim against, especially if you’d like to keep your job in the industry. It isn’t unreasonable to point out just how reactionary the entire media has been to this story.

This also lends itself well to one of my favorite quotes:

‘The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man that reads nothing but newspapers’
-Thomas Jefferson

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 22, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Plenty of plausible ones exist that exonerate both McQueary and Paterno.

No, they don’t. They rest on things that contradict what McQueary has said recently, and you thus have to believe McQueary is a liar (which he has absolutely no incentive to do).

And the media did, in fact, report on WMDs, or the lack of proof thereof. The Republicans played the same game the wagon-circlers are here: insisting that the media that was reporting the holes in their claims were biased against them.

by M1EK on Nov 23, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

There You Go Again

Show me any direct MM quote telling us exactly what he thought he saw and exactly how certain he may be of it.

Any QUOTE will do

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 24, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Not interested

Your tone has shifted to attacking, while I have not done the same to you. If I respond in kind, I’ll just be accused of being a troll again – I am not interested in that game.

You have not convinced me one iota; nor have you convinced anybody outside the wagon-circle. Perhaps it’s time to consider whether this is because of the audience or because of the message.

by M1EK on Nov 27, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I choose the audience

Because we all would like to jump on the moral superiority band wagon. And how we would have done things better, when no one knows exactly what they would have done in the situation nor what exactly was or wasn’t said between all parties.

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 27, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

The audience

is the whole world outside the wagon circle – which in addition to the haters, actually contained an awful lot of people that actually admired Joe and Penn State before this.

by M1EK on Nov 27, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

so why reply?

all I requested was one quote.
and that’s an attack?

so you are back to speaking for everybody outside some wagon circle?
A bit implausible wouldn’t you say?
I guess not – just more delusions of grandeur.
I guess you can’t come up with the quote that proves MM to be a liar – the contradictory statements then?

Of course you cannot but that makes me an attacker for asking you to support your position with fact. And I will not hold my breath while you admit you are wrong.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 27, 2011 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Attacking

Again, the vitriol from you is stuff that would get me re-banned if I responded in kind. I won’t fight with one hand tied behind my back.

by M1EK on Nov 27, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

But we will know so much more

in fact any testimony or statement by McQueary would add something to very little and would be critical in the assessment of Joe Paterno’s actions as well as McQuearys.

If McQueary is not called to testify we can easily assume that whatever he had to say it was not anything that can be used to help convict Sandusky and therefor nothing that Joe Paterno should have acted on.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 24, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

On your second point

Just because nothing actually happened, doesn’t necessarily mean that nothing was done.

I see a lot of things that could definitely be improved where I work. In almost all cases, I do as much as I can to make changes happen. Sometimes, this is in direct conflict with others in the office. Many times, office politics being office politics, nothing actually happens- no matter how much I push or how good my idea is.

I understand that this example is a bit different than someone being accused of molesting a child. But the point is, action can be taken without getting any result.

You also assume that Joe had an idea about the 1998 investigation. This claim seems to be based on Sandusky’s forced exit in 1999. There are some incredible leaps in logic that you are making to get to that connection. There are also pieces of factual information that you are ignoring that doesn’t fit your narrative. For example, Joe and Sandusky were already butting heads (and had been for some time). Joe thought the Second Mile was taking too much of Sandusky’s time and adversely affecting (or at least had the potentional to affect) his job performance. Gricar had contempt for the football program in general, and therefore wasn’t likely to share information that may be helpful to them.

But the big question is how much is too much? I think we should do everything in our power to stop child molesters. But I don’t think we should go about accusing everyone of heinous crimes by leaking information when we don’t get a desired result from the police it was reported to in the first place. Public perception being what it is, accusations of rape have the ability to ruin the person’s life who is being accused- falsely or not. Its a big deal. And so that goes to the could versus should debate. You can do anything. You should remember that all of your actions have consequences.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Excellent points

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

These facts

are facts that support a different theory about 1998 and 1999. That’s fine. I am nowhere near as sure that Joe knew what was going on then as I am that he knew something went on in 2002.

The missing facts regarding 2002 are what Joe did after he reported to Curley and Schultz the first time. Filling them in in a narrative in which Joe did the right thing requires that one believe he never talked to McQueary again, or believed the suits over his own guy.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree that it requires he never talked to McQueary again

He certainly could have. And certainly could have gotten the same response. Hell, McQueary could have questioned everything that he saw himself. That wouldn’t be out of character for someone who witnessed an event like that. It will be something that the defense targets when they cross-examine McQueary. Any reasonable doubt could be enough to acquit Sandusky of the 2002 charges.

Now imagine a scenario in which Joe goes back to MM. And MM is shaky on what he witnessed. Now, Joe has two conflicting reports from MM and a report that an investigation took place and they found no wrong doing. Thats a tough situation for Joe to be in. And its certainly possible.

You could very well be right. But based on the limited amount of facts that we have, we don’t know.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

For this narrative to be true

you have to believe McQueary is lying now, by the way. I don’t; I think he’s telling the truth, because it’s a more plausible series of events than McQueary lying to us now.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

again, just curious

but what does it require MM to be lying about? Although I have not heard anything that would support the above story, I haven’t heard anything that clearly refutes either (but I may not have heard all the public information yet).

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Nov 21, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

"shaky"

For McQueary to be “shaky” on what he witnessed is counter to what McQueary has (reportedly) been saying lately.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

It's interesting that continue to post as if the

Grand Jury presentment tells the whole truth about MM’s “statements” and since the Grand Jury Report has to be “true” he must be lying if he says something counter to your interpretation of his non-statements in the Grand Jury Report.
And it’s interesting to see that you always think your conjecture is plausible or more plausible that the conjecture of anyone else.

The truth is that we don’t know what MM told investigators because the Grand Jury report summarizes allegations. MM probably alleged that he saw possible anal intercourse. He probably heard slapping sounds. Whatever he did probably stopped whatever was happening even though the Grand Jury report does not touch on that. He was probably upset or distraught.
MM says he did contact police and that he knows that there is a lot more to come out that we don’t know. So what is it he is lying about?

You don’t believe there is more to it and more to come out?
You don’t think whatever was happening stopped?

You seem to be calling the man a liar. What are his lies?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

So based on

Mike being visibly distraught
and your lack of seeing anything that happened makes it ‘case closed’ on Joe Paterno’s cluelessness or worse?

My goodness man. Who would not be distraught to have seen a man he thought was a saint naked in a shower in some compromising position with a youth?
We have no idea what Joe asked Mike but I’ve made a stab at some reasonable questions near the bottom of this thread in the post above the bunny picture.

If Mike was uncertain of exactly what he witnessed in a few brief seconds from a distance through steam and water what can we possibly have expected Joe to do? It would be Mike’s confused uncertainty that ‘something of a sexual nature" might have been happening.
That’s Mike’s uncertainty with no identifiable corroborating witness – a youth that did not ask for help and who acted comfortable in Sandusky’s presence, vs a man who ran a big charity for youth and was very well established and regarded in the community.
If Mike could not say with 100% certainty what exactly he saw what could the State Police possibly do that the Campus police could not? It is not even State Police jurisdiction.
Who cares if you or the media buy the proper jurisdiction? No matter how many misinformed people believe an untruth it does not make it true. This was clearly in the jurisdiction of the University Police and that really does not matter. What matters is probable cause and an eyewitness who is confident of his accusation.

It seems quite likely that is not the case here. By his own admission Mike was shocked and upset by what he saw. It all happened very fast. So what if we have a case where a young GA saw a respected man and a young boy in a shower and he assumed from the sounds he had heard walking in and the positions of the man and boy that anal intercourse was possible. But what if Jerry yelled “Hey Mike – we were just horsing around” and the boy did not run to him or ask for help but seemed happy to be there with Sandusky?
Does that warrant more investigation beyond discussions with the AD and the VP in charge of those police? Perhaps more investigation occurred. Maybe the AD and the VP questioned Sandusky or had a campus police officer do it and Jerry said “I’m embarrassed about what it looked like but the boy was a foster kid staying in my house and we were just horsing around”.

The prosecution has claimed not to know the identity of victim 2 and the defense has said on national TV that they do know who he is and that he will say they were just horsing around.

That would lead some to conclude that the DA does know his identity and they have questioned him despite their denials but wish to keep those charge active for a time knowing that they won’t go to trial on those charges. Mike McQueary likely will not be able to identify a boy 10 years older than the 10 to maybe 15 years of age he may have been at the time and even if he can from pictures it is quite possible the boy was a foster child in Sandusky’s care who will say it was simply horseplay.

You and everyone else voicing an opinion has the benefit or misfortune of having come to this story with a multipage Grand Jury report summarizing 40 allegations to justify an indictment. I can’t blame anyone for reading that and not jumping to conclusions that Sandusky is a monster. But evidently Paterno and McQueary and the AD only had this one uncertain incident to consider. Certainly if they had known about 40 incidents and 8 victims their response would be far more like those of you who know for a fact you would have jumped on Sandusky and beaten him to a pulp. But that isn’t how it was is it?

The problem with your conclusions is a huge number of alternate explanations and actions not included in the Grand Jury report. We just don’t know.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 25, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Consider that McQueary wasn't even named in the presentment.

You’re looking at the presentment through the prism of the last two weeks’ events – if you consider that the presentment was written before all of the grandstanding and calling for heads, then it makes sense that there would be details omitted. The prosecution would have an incentive to give the least amount of detail that would still get an indictment, since any additional information would tip the prosecution’s hand months in advance of the beginning of formal disclosure.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 21, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Not so much - critical thinking that is.

I don’t see McQureay or Paterno as being important to the state’s case. The state has not even identified victim 2 and without that victim it will be difficult for the jury to apply guilt to those counts of the indictment.
Even worse would be the possibility that boy does come forward to say that nothing but horseplay was involved in that incident. The defense attorney has alluded to that saying that the defense knows “victim” 2 and he will testify to that. – I don’t put a lot of stock in that.

And NO – there is no reason at all to put anything more about Paterno or McQueary in the presentment or the indictment. These documents simply justify the case and the counts. Why would the DA want anything more in the presentment than is required to justify the indictment other than to make himself look good in public. How would any exculpatory evidence or qualifying remarks or reasons that McQueary did what he did that might lead to any question of Sandusky’s guilt be provided. I don’t understand your critical thinking or reasoning behind that last statement.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Not important?

Without McQueary, it was too easy to do what had been done with past reports – say that the reports weren’t credible because they came from troubled kids from troubled homes with obvious (implied) incentives to make it up for future financial gain.

He’s the linchpin of the case against Sandusky. And Paterno is the linchpin of the case against Curley and Schultz.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

There was ONE past report according to the GJ that we know about.

You’re confusing the timeline and events to support your argument of a coverup.

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 21, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Talking now about when the current GJI started

At the time they ‘found’ McQueary, there was more than one other past report. That’s what I meant. McQueary is the gold mine.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes without victim 2 involved

Without victim 2 involved in the trial it appears Mike McQueary’s testimony will not be conclusive. Did you actually read my version of McQueary’s testimony?

From what I can gather McQueary admits to being shocked and distraught and the incident of observation was in seconds not minutes. His reaction was to not run into the showers to stop anything because whatever was happening stopped when he was observed. If there was steam and water and he was 30 feet away how could he be sure of anal penetration or did it just look like that because Sandusky had grabbed the boy from behind in what he will say was horseplay.

I don’t think McQueary could be certain what was happening and that’s why there are three versions of what he told the investigator, Paterno and the AD and VP. I think he likely told them it looked like it might be anal intercourse or something of a sexual nature that shocked him so completely he could not be certain.

It’s like the HS wrestling coach walking in on Sandusky and a boy lying on a map. It looked totally inappropriate and possibly sexual but there is no way to be certain without the testimony of the victim.

How does a 6’3 man sodomize and 10 year old boy standing up? Was he lifting him up off the floor? How can an observer see penetration from a distance through a shower?
I’m not questioning McQueary’s impressions but the defense will try to establish reasonable doubt as to what he saw and what it might have been and Paterno saying it was his impression that McQueary saw fondling or ‘something of a sexual nature’ will offer some reasonable doubt about what he saw. Just being naked in a shower is not a crime even if it is totally inappropriate in my eyes.

I believe Sandusky was guilty of something – I just don’t see how McQuearys shocked observation from a distance is going to prove it without a cooperating victim as a witness.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Going to have to go graphic here

“rhythmic, slapping sounds”.

McQueary’s statements since have not displayed anything consistent with the generous interpretation you appear intent on giving the act here.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Like a boy slapping a wet shower room wall?

or slapping his feet on a shower room floor?

I look around at my 10 year old grand nephews and try to get my head around the idea of a guy Sandusky’s size.
The average 10 year old is 70 pounds and 4 feet 2

If you want to get graphic – I don’t equate rhythmic slapping sounds with sex except in the most exuberant stages between adults
and I find it impossible to imagine with a 200 plus 6’3 football coach and a 70 lb 4’2 10 year old. But maybe I’m naive and lack imagination.

I just don’t think hearing rhythmic slapping sounds from a shower room would strike as anything but hands on a wall or feet on the floor.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

And the point is that WE DON'T HAVE STATEMENTS

what we have is a summary without quotes or Q&A
did you read my article at all
That is the central point to it.

This is what we have and it is not STATEMENTS
As the graduate assistant entered the locker room doors, he was surprised to find the lights and showers on. He then heard rhythmic slapping sounds. He believed the sounds to be those of sexual activity. As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the showers. He saw a naked boy, victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant was shocked but noticed both victim 2 and Sandusky saw him. He left immediately, distraught.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

When you put "" marks around rhythmic slapping sounds

you are quoting the report and not McQueary.
Do you understand that?
McQueary is not quoted and this summary does not allow for context
or qualifiers. It’s designed to justify indictment it is not used at trial.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand completely

I’m wondering if you do as well – that given the enormity of what happened, the grand jury presentment in and of itself is sufficient for us to understand that the ball was dropped here.

Because, to be honest, taking your statements on a fairly short trip (i.e. not reductio ad absurdium), even Curley and Schultz should remain employed and above our reproach. Heck, why have we been so tough on Sandusky, too?

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

As long as you are willing to accept the DA's version of events as

presented in a summary of allegations designed solely to justify and indictment of Jerry Sandusky as the whole complete unassailable truth then go ahead and condemn McQueary and Paterno who I defend so far.
and Curley and Schultz – who I do not but only because I haven’t studied enough information.
Although I won’t be surprised if the perjury indictments are dropped
Wonder why we haven’t seen the Grand Jury Repots on those indictments.

All I’ve said is that I’m going to reserve judgement on McQuery and Paterno until I see the testimony or Q&A that led to the presentment if that ever occurs. If you can’t handle that and have to bring Sandusky into this discussion I have no more time for you. I haven’t said a word in defense of Sandusky and I will not. Since it appears that victims are willing to testify against him that’s all I require to harbor an opinion of guilt.

But I will maintain that we don’t know enough because the only statements I have seen from McQueary were
1) I made sure it stopped
2) I called the police
and
3) There is a lot more to come out about this

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

All I ask is consistency

If you insist that we must see actual sworn statements before condemning anybody, then obviously you cannot condemn even Sandusky now.

Good.

Now back in reality, where we have to live without often knowing to the last percentage point that truths we hold pretty consistently have been proven, I once again have to rest on the contention that in order to believe Paterno’s excuses for not doing more, you have to basically believe he was clueless. His grad assistant was distraught, a man he trusts (this is not a kid who has incentive to lie; this is a kid who had every incentive not to come to him). Why?

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Statements

Paterno’s statement, “I wish I had done more”, is itself a difficult one for those on the inside of this particular wall.

Why would you say that if you were sure you couldn’t have done more? If the jurisdictional force-field prevented any other police from ever investigating? If he had reported to the only possible people he could have? If he couldn’t possibly have reported to anybody else?

Did Paterno lie?

If he told the truth, what, in hindsight, does he wish he had done? I’m interested in hearing your theory – because the sum total of opinion from people inside the wall appears to require that he could not have done any more than he did do, yet in his own words he says he wishes he had done more, which clearly implies he thinks he COULD have done more.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

He wishes he had done more because kids got hurt. Maybe he means that he wishes he beat JS with a baseball bat. We don’t know yet.

by P. Incaviglia on Nov 21, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

This, and the other comments at the same level

ignore the important part.

Why express that you wish you had done more if you know that you could not have done one thing more than you actually did, which is what your circle basically believes happened?

You have not said “Joe didn’t know he could go to other cops”; you have said “Joe could NOT have gone to any other cops”.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I have never said that.

Others have. I don’t think you’ll see any arguments about jurisdiction from me. However, if Joe thought the police were involved, why would he contact them again, even if he didn’t see any action? WE DON’T KNOW WHAT HE DID OR DIDN’T DO!

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 21, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

That's true

We don’t know for sure. We do know that Joe has said he should have done more.

And again, why would he contact them again? Because the Joe that I want to believe in would have cared to try to prevent more kids from getting abused down the road?

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

You do realize...

the Joe you want to believe in would be required to already suspect a coverup in order to not be satisfied with the results of the investigation he (in this hypothetical) knew to have taken place.

Because the Joe that I want to believe in would have cared to try to prevent more kids from getting abused down the road?

Your position supposes Joe was certain that children were already being abused.

I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD

Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.

by bconway6 on Nov 23, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

The Joe I want to believe in

would have thought that Sandusky “sashaying around campus” for years afterwards was evidence the crime was covered up, yes. Why wouldn’t you think the same thing?

Well, the bare minimum required if you see the abuser still hanging around and you know he’s still ‘working’ with kids is to check with the eyewitness – you know, the one who was horribly distraught over what he saw. And then go to the real cops – not the (non-police) bureaucrats who had an incentive to cover this up!

Again, why else would Joe say now that he “wishes he had done more” otherwise?

And this goes for those so sure about the jurisdictional force-field argument above. Why would joe say he should have done more if he couldn’t have done more?

by M1EK on Nov 27, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Once again

assuming fact where none exists.
accepting the Grand Jury Report as something it is not.

You don’t know anything the rest of us don’t know and it has been explained in excruciating detail time and again the we have nothing but a summary of allegations against Sandusky and two unproven perjury charges. But we already know you will not let the lack of fact, quote, or statement get in the way of your lack of judgment.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 27, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean hell

In this situation I find myself wishing that I could have done more for those kids. Thats completely irrational, considering the fact that I have no ties to the football program or any of the people in question. It doesn’t negate my feelings though.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Just suppose

McQueary and his father come over to Joe’s on Saturday morning and McQueary says:
Coach I’ve been up talking with my father most of the night because I saw something that really upset me around 9pm last night in Lasch. Coach Sandusky was in the showers naked with a boy about 10 or 12 and when I first saw them Jerry was behind the boy who’s hands were against the shower room wall and Jerry had his hands around him. My first impression was that he might have been trying to have anal intercourse but I could not be certain – there was steam and water from the shower. They saw me almost immediately and whatever was hapening stopped and Jerry yelled “Hey Mike we were just horsing around.” “I was mortified to see a grown man naked in that position with a young boy. iI couldn’t believe my eyes. They turned off the showers and grabbed their towels and went into the dressing area while I went into the office to call Dad to get his advice. The boy did not ask for help or seem upset. I’m not 100% sure what was going on but Jerry was embarrassed and it seemed like something of a sexual nature. He could have been fondling the boys privates. But again the boy did not seem upset and he could have called or come to me. I didn’t know what to do – try to stop them from leaving while I called the cops? But I didn’t think I had the right to stop him from leaving and it would be my uncertainty against jerry’s reputation and the boy seemed happy to be there”. I think it was anal intercourse or something sexual Coach and even if it wasn’t it is totally inappropriate for a grown man to be in naked contact with a boy."
“If Jerry is using his Second Mile kids and the university facilities for this type of thing it’s very wrong even though I’ve heard Jerry say that these fatherless kids need close contact with a father figure and I’ve known Jerry and I’m friends with his foster son. I just don’t know what to do or think. What if he is sexually abusing these boys? What should we do?”
PATERNO “I will get Tim Curley over here as soon as I can and tell him what you saw and what you thought you saw. He and the administration have to be informed and they will handle this the right way. They will want to talk to you and wee will get to the bottom of this and make sure Jerry cannot get away with abusing boys if that is what is happening.”

So what could Joe have done more if this is his only information about JS and possible sexual activity with boys. JS is the head of a big charity that people think is a wonderful thing and that JS is a saint. They have to have more than a 30 second encounter that is not dead certain and they don’t know who the boy is. So what can they do but let the AD and VP in charge of campus police handle it. What can the cops do with a confused assessment of the situation by a GA who is not certain of what exactly he saw?

Well in hindsight Joe might have gone to JS himself and demanded to know who the boy was so he could talk to him. Maybe Joe thought that is what the AD and VP would do – and maybe they did – and maybe the boy told them that everything was fine and just horseplay. WE DON’T KNOW.. That kind of thing would not be in the indictment. All lawyers demand their clients stay silent with the press so all we know about are the emails by Mike to friends and players that say among other things that he called the cops and there is a lot more to come out that we don’t know. I don’t think that makes Joe clueless or culpable. Its a tricky situation. He’s not a friend of JS and JS is not his employee or under his control.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

You had to stretch a really long ways

For THIS narrative to be true, the GJ presentment collapses forty minutes of hemming and hawing into a definitive “observed what he believed to be ”.

Again, this is possibly true. But is it very likely? No.

Also, please don’t open up the “but Joe didn’t have any real power” can of worms. Just, don’t. It’s too easy to fall into self-serving rationalization for the inside-the-circle folks, but it’s not true; Curley was Paterno’s “boss” in name only.

by M1EK on Nov 21, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

The GJ presentment

collapses 3 years into 23 pages.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

which is to say

That there are likely days or even weeks of hemming and hawing that didn’t make it into the GJ presentment at all.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 22, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Cut it with personal attacks.

I have tried in my arguments to respond to your points and not attack you directly. Arguing with you is a frustrating experience and I think you enjoy that people find that to be the case in general. So you think many of us are insular in our thoughts. That may be true. It’s probably part of the reason we come to this site. Why do you? You just enjoy the idea of arguing the same point ad nauseam?

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 21, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Where is the personal attack?

Personal attacks are not attacks on arguments. Please specify where in my comment above you see an attack on your person, so I can rectify it.

“self-serving rationalization” is an attack on the argument being used.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Who said anything about Joe's power?

You bring up a “can of worms” that isn’t even approached.

And of course the GJ Report crystalizes the most damning elements of the investigation into the most damaging indictment. That is how it is designed. Why would a DA give the defense the qualifiers? answer
They wouldn’t

All the GJ report is good for is to justify the counts of the indictment. Can’t see why that seems to escape your grasp.

We are a long way from trial and counts will be added and dropped and then presented using the most provable to convict. By trial I wouldn’t be surprised to see the 40 counts down to 20 or 25 with some of those being new and different. My best guess is without victim 2 those counts simply go away. The DA will not want to give the impression to the jury that he could be wrong by ditching the least strong counts and concentrating on enough to put JS away for life.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

In hindsight

Paterno sees that if the allegations are true, he COULD have done more. In hindsight. Learning what is alleged to have happened.

To take it to the next level and say that this is an admission that he SHOULD have done more is taking some liberties.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 22, 2011 1:27 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

In hindsight

We ALL could do more everyday to make someone’s life a little better, or even prevent a tragedy. You’ll never know until it becomes “in hindsight”.

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Nov 22, 2011 8:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually

Paterno SAID he “wishes he had done more”. My side of the circle says he SHOULD have done more; your side of the circle has insisted in other threads that he COULD NOT have done more.

With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more.

This statement cannot be reconciled with “I could not have done more”. It is, however, quite close to “I should have done more”.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

With the benefit of hindsight, vigilante justice would have been a good course of action.

With the benefit of hindsight, anyone who ever crossed paths with Josef Stalin when he was a child could have killed him on the spot and saved 20 million lives.

There’s a pretty big chasm between ‘I wish I had done more’ and ‘I should have done more’.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 22, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Reductio ad absurdium

Do you really think Joe was thinking of vigilante action when he made that statement?

Or is it more likely he was thinking “I wish I had reported this to somebody outside the corrupt chain of command of the university”?

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Reducto ad absurdium was exactly the point I was trying to make.

No, I don’t think Joe was actually thinking of vigilante justice. He may have been thinking that, in hindsight, opening himself and the University up to civil suits for defaming Sandusky’s character (without any criminal charges) would have been an acceptable path to pursue.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 22, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

You just said

“side of the circle,” your argument is invalid.

Also, side note, what are you talking about? Who ever said the statement needed to be reconciled with “could not”? It’s a pretty clear reference that he realized he “could have done more.” I’m actually convinced that you don’t even read people’s comments before replying.

If you want to read it as being close to “should have” then you can, I guess. But I’ve had this discussion elsewhere, and the notion of saying one “should have” done something is an entirely different concept, and requires a value judgment. I suppose there are different sides to a circle or ends of a rhombus or whatever that are willing to make value judgments without, you know, knowing exactly what happened. I personally am going to reserve my judgment until I have enough information upon which to make an informed judgment without many, if any, factual inferences.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 22, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Inside and outside are sides!

The point is that in the other thread, mercifully aged off the front page, numerous people on the inside of the wagon-circle insisted that there was literally nothing else Paterno could have done than what we know him to have done.

Clearly “I wish I had done more” is not compatible with “I did everything I possibly could have”.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I just want to make it clear

that I do not believe Paterno did everything he could have done. I DO believe that because we do not yet have all the facts, there is a plausible narrative in which Paterno does what he thinks is the right thing to do at the time (and what many reasonable people would have done) but later finds out that this was not the right thing to do, and regrets it. Other narratives are also possible. I choose to give Paterno the benefit of the doubt until more facts come out. That’s all.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Nov 22, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, again

If you had actually, you know, read MY comment, you’d have saved yourself a lot of time talking about what other people have said on other threads and maybe we could have had a discussion. I’m done with this.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 22, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

We'd have an easier time

if you’d notice the plural in some threads. Because what keeps happening is:

Person A says “Nobody ever claimed X”.

I say “In the other thread, many people on your side did”.

Person B says “I didn’t claim that! Why are you saying I did?”

Lather, rinse, repeat.

In your case, you asked me “Who ever said (X)”. I pointed out that many people said it, and you got mad. Fine, don’t ask next time!

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Then start a new thread

and stop hitting the reply button. I understand what you’re saying but you argue in a way that literally no one else on SBNation does, and it’s confusion, frustrating and counter-productive.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 22, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

No thanks

The thread is clear – it’s you that’s not here. You asked “Who has said this” and I told you, and you got mad.

If you don’t want to be referred to other threads for answers to “who has said this”, then I don’t know what to tell you other than that I intend to keep doing it where appropriate. In this case, it was; there’s a whole thread full of people inside the wagon-circle making the precise claim that Joe could not have done more than he is known to have done. Period.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

"I wish I had done more"

I have friends who lost their troubled teen son a few years ago. Not a day goes by that they don’t beat themselves up saying “I wish I had done more.” Could they have done more? Probably. Would the “more” have made the outcome any different? No one knows. So they continue wishing they had, b/c it just might have made a difference. And the benefit of hindsight is now tearing them apart.

And I’m sure this is where Paterno’s head is at. Who knows if “something more” would have been the one thing that ended this. But what is that one thing, that something more? Again, no one knows.

So all this circular talk about wishing and coulda and shoulda is just an exercise in futility b/c no one knows what would have happened if someone, anyone, everyone did more.

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Nov 22, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Important

The reason this word choice is important is because, again, a large number of the defenders of Paterno in this case insist that he COULD NOT have done anything more, whether on grounds of law or otherwise. He himself has basically destroyed that argument.

He’s smart enough to have been able to said “I did all that I legally could have” if that was what he actually meant.

It’s clear to me that he regrets not having pushed harder. And no, there’s no guarantee that pushing harder would have worked. But there’s absolutely a guarantee that not pushing harder wasn’t going to do anything.

by M1EK on Nov 22, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, more could have been done. By lotsa folk. But...

Pushed harder to who? The SCPD or PSP, who would have to admit the UPPD screwed up in order to investigate on their own? Or believe they were covering something up?

And pushed harder with what? His hearsay from McQueary? If McQeary was so distraughht by this, why didn’t he, as a grown man, push those other agencies into doing something more, if he wasn’t satisfied with what UPPD did? Everyone seems to assume that just b/c Joe Paterno says “jump”, everyone else is gonna say “how high?”

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Nov 22, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Correction

If you feel it’s appropriate to say he should have done more simply because he should could have done more…

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 22, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

"I DO care about rhombi"

I figured you would care about octagons.
Y’know, OctaShields and all.

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Nov 22, 2011 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe we DO know enough

and, before even going on, remember that if I don’t address other peoples’ claims here, they say I just ignored them.

It’s also important to be sure where people stand. If you, OctaShields, think Paterno COULD have done more, why didn’t you speak up in my defense on that other thread, for instance?

As for SHOULD, I stand firm, as do many of the writers for this site (who have given up engaging this in the comments because as bull-headed as you think I am, you guys are far worse). Paterno SHOULD have followed up with people who were outside the organization that had obvious incentives to cover it up. SHOULD.

by M1EK on Nov 23, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Reasonable if...

Most people draw at least reasonable conclusions if they start with the same basic facts AND ASSUMPTIONS.

Paterno SHOULD have followed up with people who were outside the organization that had obvious incentives to cover it up. SHOULD.

Your reasoning for what should have happened is perfectly logical and clear if one assumes that Joe could not trust those that were to investigate the claims to investigate the claims thoroughly.

However, if that assumption is not made, and Joe assumed that the instigation was properly carried out, I fail to see why a persistence of skepticism about the investigation is warranted.

Clearly in 2011 it definitely seems that the investigation was not handled properly, but I am not positive there was reason to believe that in 2002.

I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD

Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.

by bconway6 on Nov 23, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Good framing

This is the proper way to handle people with different sets of assumptions – identify them, at least, even if they can’t be rectified.

In my case, I obviously assume that by, let’s say, 2003; when Joe saw Sandusky still hanging around and knew he was still working with Second Mile kids, he should have suspected the investigation was not handled properly.

by M1EK on Nov 27, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

You assume

and with your assumption would write off a lifetime of good for a summary of allegations. Paterno could not possibly be the good man he seems to have been for a lifetime. He must be some pedophile lover who chose to somehow put the reputation of PSU above the needs of these alleged victims because he must have known in advance that Sandusky was going to be charged with 40 counts.
But for the record Joe only knew what ever Mike told him and everything depends on what that was and how certain Mike was of it.
The more prudent among us refuse to condemn based on your assumptions.
Show us what Joe knew – any statement or quote will do.

He knew Jerry Sandusky was his assistant coach for many years.
He knew Jerry Sandusky started a charity and was held in high esteem for that work
He knew that Mike saw him doing something in a shower that disturbed him.
He knew the AD and VP had forbidden Jerry to bring boys to the PSU facilities.
He knew that Sandusky had emeritus professor status and an office at PSU granted by contract.

WE don’t know what he did other than reporting whatever he might have been told by Mike ‘naked in shower with boy – horseplay or possibly something sexual’

Was he told that Sandusky explained what happened as horseplay with a foster child in his care?
Was he told that the AD and VP questioned JS and the boy and both denied anything but horseplay?
We Don’t know do we? But you assume that the real Joe is such an uncaring person that he would tolerate an unquestioned pedophile.
I don’t know Joe but his reputation gives him far more credibility than you and the benefit of substantial reasonable doubt.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 27, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

In reality

I think he should go down and read my post. I’m going to say this in the nicest way possible. You aren’t looking at blue kool-aid drinkers. You instead are looking at folks who are extremely educated enough to wait for facts. I’ll say this if Joe is apart of some cover up I’d be shocked, but I’d accept it.

That being said understand how a cover-up works, if Joe Pa was covering up why would he tell the AD and VP the best way to keep something quiet is to have the least amount of people involved. If Joe had said nothing and told Mike to keep his mouth shut (Which he would have seeing as Joe’s his boss) Then we’d have never heard about the 2002 incident. (Strange how that works.)

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 27, 2011 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Same to you

In the nicest possible way, read my comments. I have never said Joe intentionally participated in the cover-up, which is why from the very beginning I said he had earned the right to resign rather than be fired.

When he chose not to do that and instead thumb his nose at the BoT, he got fired. Not the way I wanted him to go out.

But to go from “he didn’t intentionally cover it up” to “he did what he should have done” is a long leap that many here who have long since given up on you guys in comments cannot make.

by M1EK on Nov 28, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Thank you

I’ve always respected UT, and you do a great service to your alma mater.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Nov 20, 2011 1:41 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Exact Text of the Grand Jury Report on McQueary

On March 1, 2002, a Penn State graduate assistant who was then 28 years old entered the locker room at the Lasch Football Building on the University Park Campus on a Friday night before the beginning of Spring Break. The graduate assistant , who was familiar with Sandusky, was going to put some newly purchased sneakers in his locker and get some recording tape to watch. It was about 9:30pm. As the graduate assistant entered the locker room doors, he was surprised to find the lights and showers on. He then heard rhythmic slapping sounds. He believed the sounds to be those of sexual activity. As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the showers. He saw a naked boy, victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant was shocked but noticed both victim 2 and Sandusky saw him. He left immediately, distraught.
QUESTIONS on above statement:
1) How far from McQueary’s locker to the showers? Anybody got a picture?
2) So MM could see exactly what? penetration? was there steam and water?
3) 30 seconds of this view? 15? Did they see him immediately?

The graduate assistant went to his office and called his father, reporting to him what he had seen. His father told him to leave the building anc come to his home. The GA and his father decided the GA had to promptly report what he had seen to Coach Joe Paterno, head football coach of Penn State. The next morning, a Saturday, the GA telephoned Paterno and went to Paterno’s home where he reported what he had seen.

Joseph V. Paterno testified to receiving the GA’s report at his home on a Saturday morning. Paterno testified that the GA was very upset. Paterno called Tim Curley the PSU AD and Paterno’s immediate superior to his home the very next day, a Sunday, and reported to him that the GA had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy.
QUESTIONS: So did he say fondling or something of a sexual nature or Anal rape?
Did he say “something that might have been sexual like anal intercourse” to the investigator?
How certain was he of what he saw exactly? And exactly what was his quoted testimony?

Approximately one and a half weeks later, the GA was called to a meeting with PSU AD Curley and Sr VP for Finance and Business Gary Schultz. The GA reported to Curley and Schultz that he had witnessed what he believed to be Sandusky having anal sex with a boy in the Lasch Building showers. Curley and Schultz assured the GA that they would look into it and determine what further action they would take. Paterno was not present for that meeting.
QUESTIONS: So he told Paterno something of a sexual nature or fondling and he told the AD and VP it was anal intercourse? Somehow I doubt that completely.
The defense will tear his testimony apart if he changed his account and I doubt he did. I think this is all the prosecutors summary aggrandized to get an indictment.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 20, 2011 3:06 PM EST reply actions  

Notice these things about the Grand Jury Report

NO quotes
NO Q & A
NO ‘believes’ ‘maybe’ ‘could have been’s’ or ‘uncertainty’

Without direct quotes we can’t know the language used and that makes it obvious that the DA or prosecutor summarized or interpreted the gist of the testimony

The summary contradicts itself OR suggests that MM told Paterno, the investigators, the AD and the VP different versions of what he might have seen.
That is how we know his statements in the email’s lately are likely to be more accurate than this Grand Jury report concerning “Making sure it stopped” and “reporting to the police”.

This is a terrible report for the prosecution if it suggests to a jury that MM had different versions of what he saw – and it appears from the summary that he did.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 20, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Aurabass, on a slightly different note,

do you think all this (negative) publicity will have any impact on Sandusky’s ability to get a fair trial? While I want to allow for the sacred “innocent until proven guilty” tenet, I think it will be horrible if the charges are thrown out because a judge believes he will not get a fair trial anywhere. The screams about “cover-up” will deafen us all . . . .

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 20, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

PSU_Lions_84

Well fair trials were had by OJ and Casey Anthony so it’s tough to imagine this not resulting in a trial. Those trials were so fair the presumed guilt that both were saddled with failed to merit a conviction. That might be a greater worry in this case.

I think the prosecution may have shot themselves in the foot with the release of the inflammatory Grand Jury Report because it may have harmed the credibility of Mike McQueary. Remeber McQueary may have been less than certain. It’s hard to know the situation and his view of the contact so he could have used a lot of maybe’s or I believe or thought I saw qualifiers. And there is no Victim 2 known to the prosecution yet so that part of the case will be hard to win. If the defense is right and they have victim 2 and he says nothing happened except a little horseplay or if he was 16 years old and said it was consensual the firing of Coach Paterno and MM’s defamation will have been an injustice of the first magnitude.

But all the AD really needs is a couple of very credible 20 somethings who will testify to abuse perhaps backed up by the HS wresting coach and the janitors and convictions on only 1 count of the 40 count indictment will spell the end for Sandusky. He won’t survive prison as a kid raper and his sentence will effectively be life. There are so many victims and so many counts it’s difficult to see how he can avoid conviction on one or more of the (now) 40 counts. The new victim 9 will add more.

The tragedy will be that this may end up having nothing to do with PSU or Paterno the AD or the VP because of the prosecutors zeal in blowing the 2002 event all out of proportion. If that victim won’t testify to abuse and the defense uses him to say it was horseplay that looked bad but was not sexual it will relieve PSU and Paterno from any responsibility. That could be a real possibility.

Have you been in the Lasch Building locker room and showers where this allegedly took place or do you know anyone who has? It would be interesting to see the view from McQueary’s locker to the shower room.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 20, 2011 6:09 PM EST reply actions  

Aurabass, thanks for the enlightenment.

The OJ and Casey Anthony cases are good examples of where the legal process ruled one way while the court of public opinion went 180 degrees opposite.

I agree with you: There are areas of doubt that could lead to some suspense in how JS’ trial goes. Don’t think he will be acquitted on all charges, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the trial becomes a circus, with egg on plenty of faces.

And your next-to-last paragraph is intriguing. If Penn State/Paterno are essentially exculpated in the 2002 incident, how will that affect perceptions? I work at Duke U. I know the former lacrosse players and coach got some big checks, and the perception on campus is that that case was totally screwed up. Could we “enjoy” that outcome five-ten years down the road?

I have no information on Lasch — sorry!

Thanks again for your insights!

Mark

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Nov 20, 2011 6:31 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Duke U did handle that entire situation horribly.

I’m still really pissed at the knee-jerk reaction of the faculty and how after they were proven wrong they never offered an apology to those kids.

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 21, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Just for clarification,

I don’t think the janitor will testify because he has dementia. I would think that anything the former janitor’s boss would testify to would be hearsay (hope I’m not using that legal term incorrectly) since he didn’t see anything first hand and only heard the details from the janitor that now can’t testify due to diminished mental capacity (or he could testify but the defense would eat him up on cross).

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 21, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

As I understand it

when a witness dies or is disabled there is some case law that supports what would be hearsay if the original witness was available. The court can rule that multiple persons hearing the same thing can confirm a conversation. That may or may not be possible in this case.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 12:49 PM EST reply actions  

Forgive me, because I'm sure this has been mentioned somewhere,

but is the grand jury presentment meant to be released to the public or was that an error?

by P. Incaviglia on Nov 21, 2011 3:25 PM EST reply actions  

I don't know for certain

but I think it was done in this case for two reasons
1) To try to identify two victims who are unknown – the 2002 McQueary incident and the Janitor incident
2) Because it gives a lot of positive publicity to the DA and the prosecution.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

So it was a calculated move by the prosecution to release it.

I thought I read somewhere that it was released accidentally due to a computer error.

by P. Incaviglia on Nov 21, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess it could have been

I did not see that story so I don’t know for sure
but I know they wanted to try to find more victims.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't find anything on it, so I'm probably misremembering.

I’m just wondering if the prosecution anticipated (or cared about) the spot they put McQueary and Paterno in by releasing the presentment as it is. If these guys are pivotal witnesses, you would think the prosecution would want to look out for them a little bit.

by P. Incaviglia on Nov 21, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I heard that too.

But I don’t know what the law is regarding FOIA and/or sunshine laws

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 21, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

A NYT article stated:
The grand jury indictment had been filed under seal, but because of a computer glitch it had mistakenly been made public.

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 21, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry for being brutally thorough here...

So the grand jury indictment the NYT article refers to is the same thing as the presentment, or the presentment is a document included in the indictment?

by P. Incaviglia on Nov 21, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Im not a lawyer

But I’m pretty sure that presentment is the technical, legal term for the summary of the Grand Jury testimony that is used to get an indictment(s) to bring charges against the accused and ultimately bring them to trial

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

But I'd like one (of the many)

Lawyers here on BSD to clear this up as well.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 21, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Another one for the lawyers

Will there come a time when we will see the complete grand jury
testimony or Q&A? I assume this will eventually be released, but I don’t care much for assumptions.

by P. Incaviglia on Nov 21, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

42 Pa.C.S.A. s4551. Investigating Grand Jury Presentments

(a) General rule. —Should the investigating grand jury determine that upon the basis of evidence presented to it a presentment should be returned against an individual, the grand jury shall direct the attorney for the Commonwealth to prepare a presentment which shall be submitted to the investigating grand jury for a vote. Should a majority of the full grand jury vote approval for the presentment it shall then be submitted to the supervising judge. The supervising judge shall examine the presentment, and if it is within the authority of the investigating grand jury and is otherwise in accordance with the provisions of this subchapter, the supervising judge shall issue an order accepting the presentment. Otherwise, the supervising judge shall refuse to accept the presentment and shall order that the investigating grand jury take further appropriate action.

(b) Sealed presentment. —The supervising judge to whom a presentment is submitted may, on his own motion or at the request of the Commonwealth, direct that the presentment be kept secret until the defendant is in custody or has been released pending trial. In directing that the presentment be kept secret, the supervising judge shall enter an order requiring that the presentment be sealed and that no person shall disclose a return of the presentment except when necessary for issuance and execution of process.

© Prosecution by Attorney General. —Whenever a multicounty investigating grand jury returns a presentment against any person the Attorney General or his designee shall, with respect to the alleged criminal activities, be authorized to prosecute the person on behalf of the Commonwealth by instituting criminal proceedings in the county of appropriate venue. The Attorney General or his designee shall take the oath of office required by law to be taken of district attorneys, and shall be clothed with all the powers and subject to all the liabilities imposed upon district attorneys by law.

(d) Venue. —In any case where a multicounty investigating grand jury returns a presentment the supervising judge shall select the county for conducting the trial from among those counties having jurisdiction.

(e) Procedure following presentment. —When the attorney for the Commonwealth proceeds on the basis of a presentment, a complaint shall be filed and the defendant shall be entitled to a preliminary hearing as in other criminal proceedings.

by speedotito on Nov 21, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Reply fail

This was supposed to be in response to psuphysicist

by speedotito on Nov 21, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the grand jury process is uber-secretive.

From what I can see, the defendant can apply to have grand-jury witness’s testimony from the grand jury proceedings released AFTER that witness had testified at trial. I don’t see a method for them to be released, absent that. The rules require the supervising Court to keep the transcript and evidence from a grand jury secret, with few exceptions.

by speedotito on Nov 21, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought Grand Jury testimony was available for both parties' review during trial?

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 22, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure that's the case in PA

But again, I’m not familiar with this area of law. I don’t think the Defendant gets a full transcript. Only his testimony and testimony that is exculpatory.

Rule 230. Disclosure of Testimony Before Investigating Grand Jury

   (A) Attorney for the Commonwealth: Upon receipt of the certified transcript of the proceedings before the investigating grand jury, the court shall furnish a copy of the transcript to the attorney for the Commonwealth for use in the performance of official duties.
 
   (B) Defendant in a Criminal Case:
 
   (1) When a defendant in a criminal case has testified before an investigating grand jury concerning the subject matter of the charges against him, upon application of such defendant the court shall order that the defendant be furnished with a copy of the transcript of such testimony.
 
   (2) When a witness in a criminal case has previously testified before an investigating grand jury concerning the subject matter of the charges against the defendant, upon application of such defendant the court shall order that the defendant be furnished with a copy of the transcript of such testimony; however, such testimony may be made available only after the direct testimony of that witness at trial.
 
   (3) Upon appropriate motion of a defendant in a criminal case, the court shall order that the transcript of any testimony before an investigating grand jury that is exculpatory to the defendant, or any physical evidence presented to the grand jury that is exculpatory to the defendant, be made available to such defendant.
 
   © Other Disclosures: Upon appropriate motion, and after a hearing into relevancy, the court may order that a transcript of testimony before an investigating grand jury, or physical evidence before the investigating grand jury, may be released to another investigative agency, under such other conditions as the court may impose.

by speedotito on Nov 22, 2011 8:15 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not a criminal defense attorney, but...

We don’t use grand juries and indictments in PA. I think I read somewhere that we are one of two jurisdictions that doesn’t have a grand jury system. What we have are Investigating Grand Juries. In this case, this was a “Muticounty investigating grand jury” defined as "A Statewide or regional investigating grand jury convened by the Supreme Court upon the application of the Attorney General and having jurisdiction to inquire into organized crime or public corruption or both under circumstances wherein more than one county is named in the order convening said investigating grand jury. 42 Pa.C.S.A. s4542. To convene a multicounty investigating grand jury, the Attorney General must apply to the Supreme Court and state, in his or her application that, “in his judgment…it is necessary because of organized crime or public corruption or both involving more than one county…” 42 Pa.C.S.A. s 4544. An “Investigating grand jury presentment” is “a written formal recommendation by an investigating grand jury that specific persons be charged with specific crimes.” 42 Pa.C.S.A. s4542. I reproduce the full statute regarding Investigating grand jury presentments below.

by speedotito on Nov 21, 2011 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Kind of weird

I’ve never looked at this stuff before, but the AG had to have gone to the Supreme Court and convinced them this was about “organized crime” or "public corruption, defined by the Investigating Grand Jury Act as:

“Organized crime.” —The unlawful activity of an association trafficking in illegal goods or services, including but not limited to gambling, prostitution, loan sharking, controlled substances, labor racketeering, or other unlawful activities; or any continuing criminal conspiracy or other unlawful practice which has as its objective:

   (1) large economic gain through fraudulent or coercive practices; or

   (2) improper governmental influence.

“Public corruption.” —The unlawful activity under color of or in connection with any public office or employment of:

   (1) any public official or public employee, or the agent of any public official or public employee under color of or in connection with any public office or employment; or

   (2) any candidate for public office or the agent of any candidate for public office.

I wonder if this investigation was sent to an investigating grand jury after someone (DA or AG) caught wind of the cover-up. From reading the statute and the rules, it doesn’t seem like a statewide grand jury would have been convened purely to investigate what Sandusky was alleged to have done. I guess he was a “public employee” at one time? But surely not when the 2002 or later incidents occurred.

Food for thought.

by speedotito on Nov 21, 2011 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Or

that ugly rumor that Sandusky was pimping kids out would certainly be considered “Organized Crime.”

Sorry for the stream of consciousness posting. I stayed late in the office to pour over a divorce file, and I ended up learning more about the Investigating Grand Jury Act than I ever wanted to know.

by speedotito on Nov 21, 2011 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for those posts

The post about rules for using Grand Jurys in PA is particularly interesting. As you alluded to, it seems that the only way that this makes sense is if there was a coverup.

If thats true, the perjury charges make more sense. It also makes sense why MM and Paterno’s testimony and credibility as witnesses is so important. The 2002 incident would seem to be a lynch pin in a possible coverup.

Of course, maybe the AG stretched the law a bit to dig into Sandusky. I don’t know the thought process there any more than I know the thought process of anything else that has happened in this sordid affair.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Nov 22, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, points a-2, b-1, and b-3 would all seem to apply here...

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 22, 2011 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I mean b-2, not b-3. Duh...

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 22, 2011 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow - that's a "mistake' that really cost

McQueary and Paterno

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually I asked a cop about this

He stated that in PA, and presumably elsewhere, once a Grand Jury is done with its findings, it is automatically released to the public. It cannot be sealed permenantly. He wasn’t sure why people were saying it was only to be sealed, since they are always made available for public view. Litterally right now we can look up past Grand Jury findings for any case.

by AriesGD on Nov 22, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe it can be sealed until trial?

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 22, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

No

It is only sealed when the grand jury is still deliberating. Once they make their findings, it s unsealed.

by AriesGD on Nov 22, 2011 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

You may be right

Found this on a quick google search. It makes it sound like the only purpose of a seal would be to not tip off a defendant, but I’m not sure that is the only reason. I’m really not familiar with how much authority judges have to seal different documents (for a variety of reasons, including confidentiality) and if that general power also extends to presentments. I only went to law school, I didn’t actually learn what happens in the practice of law.

(b) Sealed presentment.—The supervising judge to whom a
     presentment is submitted may, on his own motion or at the
     request of the Commonwealth, direct that the presentment be kept
     secret until the defendant is in custody or has been released
     pending trial. In directing that the presentment be kept secret,
     the supervising judge shall enter an order requiring that the
     presentment be sealed and that no person shall disclose a return
     of the presentment except when necessary for issuance and
     execution of process.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 22, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah exactly

That is pretty much what my buddy, cop, said. That they keep it sealed so as not to ip off the person of interest. Then once they arrest them for the charge the grand jury was looking into, then it is no longer sealed, since really no reason to be anymore.

by AriesGD on Nov 23, 2011 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

No

It is not automatically released once they are done with their findings. If the DA labels the complaint as unfounded, and the alleged victims are minors, the presentment is sealed and destroyed after 16months.

by psualum9931 on Nov 25, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

That is what I was trying to say. Once they can arrest someone it is automatically unsealed

by AriesGD on Nov 25, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you Btd121

for the kind words and the rec.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Damn...

This is fantastic. Wonderful piece putting things back in perspective. Details were critical…and lack of rush to judgment was refreshing.

Thanks Tennessee – great school you’ve got – Rocky Top’s a blast.

Penn State Proud

by pennst92 on Nov 21, 2011 8:45 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Thank you pennst92

for the good words and the rec

yer welcome down on Rocky Top anytime

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 21, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I can has Jack Daniel's too?

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 22, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

You can haz Jack Daniels or George Dickel

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 22, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice write up, however

the basic problem still exists: You can’t have an internal investigation of the biggest scandal in the history of PSU take place while the leader of the program, who’s role in the scandal is absolutely objectively unclear, is still in his position. You simply cannot restore trust in the institution with him in his position. Fact. The end.

by SadValley on Nov 23, 2011 8:14 AM EST reply actions  

His 'Joe Paterno's' position is that of head football coach

His job is to coach the football team
Jerry Sandusky was no longer his assistant and was not under his power to control or direct.

Joe Paterno not only told his immediate superior what he had been told (whatever that was we do NOT know) he also put that person AD Tim Curley in touch with the person who told him what he though he saw.

Those are the FACTS as far as we know them. We know nothing else.
And rushing to judgment – firing Paterno – based on those facts is unconscionable.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 24, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

So, you agree then

“Joe Paterno not only told his immediate superior what he had been told (whatever that was we do NOT know)”

That, and other things that we do NOT know that involve JoePa, force the issue. As I said, JoePa`s role is objectively unclear. What is clear is that he is involved in the reporting of an alleged (heinous, scandalous) crime. So, as the institution investigates this greatest ever scandal it needs to clean house of all leaders involved. It has nothing to do with “rush to judgment”, because the core issue for the institution does not involve judgment or justice (yes, of course, everyone involved with PSU wants justice for the victims and for JoePa, but that is separate from PSU the institution surviving as a public entity). It involves the public trust and restoring it. You cannot restore the public trust with those under investigation leading the organization that is being investigated. Can. Not. Happen. This is what is basic fact. It is troubling how fellow alums dont get that.

by SadValley on Nov 24, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

We get that. Two insiders promoted. the HC fired. the AD still employed. BUT were not supposed to rush to judgement?

Why is Tim Curley still employed by the University?

by 3Yardout on Nov 25, 2011 1:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes

I personally believe the acceptance of this summary of allegations designed to secure an indictment against Sandusky had unintended consequences.
I think the Board of Trustees looked at the Grand Jury Report and overreacted because the public overreacted.
When the public first saw any of this they saw it all at once as a complete and horrific picture. When Joe, Mike, the AD and the VP first heard or saw anything it was in a vacuum with one unclear isolated incident.
I’m not sure how anyone could avoid rushing to judgment under the circumstances but it was and is clearly the wrong thing to do once you begin to dissect the Victim 2 incident in isolation from the rest of the indictment. That is the thing I’m saying through all of this.
Now we have had the time to review the situation we need to acknowledge that it is wrong to condemn Paterno or McQueary based on what little we know.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 25, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Joe Pa Supporters

A few questions for you Joe Pa/Penn State supporters:

1. Why did Sandusky "suddenly" retire in 1999 and never coach again, despite being the heir apparent to Paterno? Because Paterno, the athletic director and probably the University President were all in on a deal to cover up Sandusky’s long-time pedophilia. Joe Pa and PSU are protected and Sandusky doesn’t go to jail for the rest of his life—everybody wins, except of course, the 40 little boys who were raped and would be continued to be raped by this 30-year Penn State coach.

2. Why did McQueary not go to the police in 2002 when he witnessed Sandusky sodomizing a 10/11-year-old boy in the Penn State football locker room shower? In McQueary’s lost world he went to the most powerful man he had ever known—the great Joe Paterno. Certainly, Jo Pa would do the right thing and take care of this absolutely horrid situation he witnessed. But Joe was 3 years into a cover-up and could not possibly come clean now. And anyway, this was what Sandusky had been doing for years, so to Paterno it wasn’t a shock. He had obviously come to terms with his own guilt in not stopping this child rapist long ago. As is always the case, once the cover-up starts, the ones doing the covering never come clean, they have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

3. Why was Sandusky barred from using Penn State facilities for his "charity" in 2003, shortly after the McQueary report? After all, if Joe Pa knew nothing about Sandusky’s serial child raping, why kick his "highly respected" charity off PSU property? Wasn’t Sandusky a revered former 30-year coach, the "defensive Joe Paterno", the architect of "linebacker U"? It must have been something really bad for Joe Paterno to take such an action. Of course it was something really bad—Sandusky violated the deal he had with Paterno—to keep his perversions off PSU grounds. And also part of the deal with his "retirement" was that fact that Sandusky would never coach again, because Paterno knew that if Sandusky went to another coaching job, they would quickly discover his serial pedophilia and not only report it to police, but come back to Paterno and say "why in hell did you not tell us about this monster." The football coaching fraternity is very strong and Sandusky’s behavior was way outside the bounds of acceptable in that exclusive fraternity. Pro and big time college football are the most hostile environments on earth for gays, never mind gay serial pedophiles. Sandusky’s behavior had to be hidden at all costs by Paterno and the PSU football mafia—umirta.

Penn State students, fans, alumni and supporters need to come to grips with this irrefutable fact: Joe Paterno could have prevented at least 9 years of Sandusky sodomizing, raping and molesting 10-year-old boys if he reports what he knows to police and FBI in 2002 after his meeting with McQueary. HE DIDN’T. Thus, scores of innocent very young boys are brutalized and scarred for the rest of their lives. Can there be any doubt that there will be future suicides among this group of traumatized children? Make all the pseudo-legal arguments you want, but you can’t escape reality: Joe Paterno is at minimum a PEDOPHILE ENABLER and probably much, much worse.

And now Joe Paterno has cancer. I thought he would most certainly be diagnosed with Alzheimer’s and in a few short weeks he would be seen in a wheel chair. But cancer works as well for his deranged purposes. Poor Joe Pa, have pity on him. We now have heart-wrenching stories about Joe’s health related by his, likely, equally guilty and despicable son.

If a football program gets the NCAA Death Penalty for allowing rich boosters to provide cars to athletes, or provide rent assistance to players’ mothers, then what type of penalty is appropriate for a program that allowed and enabled a serial pedophile to operate on their grounds? What’s worse than serial pedophilia—I guess just serial killing. The NCAA should end football at Penn State for several years of cleansing and penance.

And one last thing, is it possible to be more clueless than the PSU student body going nuts to support Paterno as soon as the story breaks. Good God, how about the dozens of 10-year-old boys raped by Jo Pa’s 30-year assistant. Can we have a constitutional amendment that says Penn State alumni are too stupid and clueless to vote? Anyone whose first reaction to a situation as horrific as the Penn State child rape scandal is to go all-in to support the man who most enabled it to continue is forever too ignorant to decide who governs our country. And a quick note to Steelers fans: Franco Harris is a total idiot—what a moron.

by FrancisChalk on Nov 24, 2011 9:19 AM EST reply actions  

Did you even read my entire post with care?

That answers your #2

For #1 – from what we know JoePa did not get along with JS and there was consistent friction on the staff because of it. That’s one plausible reason
JoePa evidently told JS that he would never recommend him as his successor and that he would do what he could to stop that from happening – it appears this was over coaching differences. – another very plausible reason for JS to retire.
and the public story seems to be that JS quit to devote full time to his charity

for #3 – Regardless of anything of a sexual nature happening it is entirely plausible for PSU to decide that having a grown man naked in the shower with a young boy is plenty of reason not to allow JS to bring young boys into the PSU football locker room. I’ve seen no indication that PSU wanted to ban Second Mile kids from campus – where did you read that?

Like everything else you’ve written here it is simply your leap to conclusions not beyond a preponderance of evidence much less reasonable doubt because you want to rush to condemn.
It’s not a very reasonable or intelligent attitude.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 24, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

“Not a very reasonable or intelligent” attitude you say. Ok, what is the reasonable or intelligent response to these questions?

Why in the world did Joe Paterno not go to the police or insist the McQeary immediately go to the police? Why simply report it to the athletic director? After all, Sandusky had not been an employee of Penn State for three years by 2002, so this can hardly be a matter of Paterno first reporting it to his and Sandusky’s boss so as not to blindside the athletic director. And does anybody on the planet not think that a man having anal sex with a very young boy—an as obvious rape as there ever can be—is a situation that ABSOLUELY must immediately be reported to the police? Can anyone with even a slight modicum of decency, ethics, integrity or honor even conceive of the idea of thinking, "it’s a monstrous crime against a poor little boy, but no, I don’t think I should report it to the police?" Apparently Joe Pa thought that way. And add to this the FACT that Paterno knew that the child rapist was running a charity organization where he is in constant contact with very young, troubled, vulnerable boys. Doesn’t that make it even more unbelievable that anyone would not go to the police and tell what he knows? Isn’t this crime so despicable—raping a 10-year-old child—that any NORMAL, decent person would go to the police immediately, and instinctively, to stop and punish the perpetrator? Not Joe Paterno. The most powerful man in the history Penn State University only reports this most depraved of all crimes to his no-name, no-account, inconsequential "boss" (a colossal misnomer as it relates to Paterno as there ever was).

No "reasonable" person would act in the way Peterno did—but someone deeply involved in a cover-up would most certainly act exactly in the way Paterno did. You Penn State defenders need to wake up. Be in denial all you want, but understand this: Joe Paterno is NOT the man we were told he was all these years. He’s not honorable, he’s not a family man, he’s not a true leader, and he could quite possibly be a criminal.

by FrancisChalk on Nov 25, 2011 8:47 AM EST up reply actions  

What is it you know that we don't know?

Let’s look at what might have been said at Joe Paterno’s house the Saturday morning of March 2 2002

Mike and his father call Joe and he tells them to come over. They sit down and Mike tells the story you can read in italics above so I don’t have to repeat myself

Then Joe starts to ask questions.

"How far were you from Jerry and the boy when you saw them?" About 30 feet away
"How long was it before they saw you?" A few seconds
"Did you have a clear view of what was happening?" No there was a lot of steam and water because several of the showers were running.
"What happened when they saw you?" They broke contact and Jerry yelled ‘Hey Mike we were just horsing around"
"Did the boy run to you or call for help?" No he appeared to be calm.
"Why did you think it was sexual?" The boy had his hands on the wall and Jerry was behind him naked with his hands around the boy
"Were his hands on the boy’s private parts or genitals?" I think so
"What did they do then?" They turned off the showers and grabbed their towels and I went into a nearby office and called my father to ask what I should do.
"Did you ask them to stay so you could make some calls?" I started to do that but I was so shocked, I mean this was coach Sandusky I’ve know since I was a boy. He was my coach and a mentor and he is such a well respected figure. I was confused and stunned. I did not know what I should do. I was not 100% certain that anything worse that a grown man naked in the shower in contact with a boy had occurred. It could have been as bad as anal intercourse that was my initial reaction, or it could have been fondling or maybe it was just seriously awkward inappropriate horseplay. It all happened so fast.
"Did you see them leave the building?"
Yes – and the boy did not seem to be upset or ill at ease but Jerry seemed very embarrassed and in a hurry to leave. I should have gotten the name of the boy but I was so shocked by the entire thing I couldn’t think straight. Did I just witness a sexual assault or was it just a totally inappropriate horseplay like Jerry said? I felt like it would be my word against his if I called the police and I could not be certain what I saw.
I swear coach I have a bad feeling about this and I think it could have been sexual but how could I be sure it happened so fast and I saw so little.

Now imagine you are Joe Pateno and what do you do?
Well I guess he could have done nothing because as Mike said he could not be certain but he decided to call his immediate supervisor and put him in touch with Mike McQueary.
And he spoke with the VP in the Administration in charge of campus police.
They both spoke with McQueary and based on what they were told they decided to tell Sandusky not to bring boys to the PSU facilities. Maybe given what they heard that was what they decided was most prudent. They could not prove that Sandusky had done anything criminal.

The boy in question has yet to be identified by the prosecution. Don’t you find that odd?
The defense says they have identified and contacted the boy and that he will testify that he and Jerry were just horsing around. That came from the Costas interview.

For these men this was an isolated incident and the man involved was a well respected former coach held in the highest esteem by the community as a saint who ran a huge charity. Why would they believe the worst when by Mike’s own admission he was shocked and stunned and had trouble believing what he thought he saw? Mike is a 28 year old graduate assistant and Sandusky is a 50 something stalwart member of the community. Sandusky has no obligation to tell anyone who the boy was. He could say it was a grand son or one of the many foster kids he helped with. What would police do with such a situation?

The point is that we have no idea what was said between Mike and Joe and the AD and the VP and we have no idea what they did or did not do in response. We Just Don’t Know Enough because all we have to go on is a Summary of Allegations designed to justify an indictment. It may be that these counts are dropped entirely and we never hear about Victim 2 again if they cannot produce him or if he says it was horseplay. But that will not reverse the injustice done to Paterno and McQueary who may very well have tried to do the right thing and the only thing they could have done. .

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 25, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Took you long enough to bust out the bunnies...

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 24, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

It's my first bunnying

no one else was doing it, so I felt I had to :)

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Nov 25, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Because

That would mean that they themselves as the lynching mob were wrong, and we know how Americans are, plus entertainment value you and people wanting to be on their “Moral high horse.”

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 25, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

oh well

At least theirs still football arkansas and LSU game is good

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 25, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

If you have evidence...

If you have any evidence that,

Paterno, the athletic director and probably the University President were all in on a deal to cover up Sandusky’s long-time pedophilia.
then you should probably take that to the police. Because at this point, there is simply no evidence of this.

I mean, otherwise, it would seem that you’re just talking out of your ass and I mean, that can’t be true. This is the internet after all, who would create a profile for no reason other than talking out of their ass on the internet?

by NewJackCity on Nov 26, 2011 5:32 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Bingo - but why would a PSU hater need evidence

to get in the way of a good bashing based on a one-sided summary of allegations?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 26, 2011 6:00 PM EST reply actions  

you mean!?

I have to have proof before I add an opinion NO WAY!?!?

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 26, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No way man

everyone should know JoePa and McQueary were a couple of really horrible people just waiting for a chance to allow an alleged pedophile disguised as a charity running saint to run rampant while they stuck their heads in the sand in order to protect their positions. What could be more logical than that?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 26, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Completely logical

and understandable its all truth

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 26, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Here, I made you something to help

“It’s a “Jump to Conclusions” mat! You see, you have this mat, with different CONCLUSIONS written on it that you could JUMP TO!"

by NewJackCity on Nov 26, 2011 7:11 PM EST reply actions  

Media and public jumped to

GO WILD

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 26, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Edit

Then most would have** (My brain went stupid) and that is speak up*

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 27, 2011 2:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Thank you for this Modayna

This comment section has become way too long and I’ve composed another post to simplify and condense some of these thoughts – but I don’t want to overstay my welcome here or belabor this situation if people are so tired of it they just want a break.

Reading the reactions of many to this and many additional articles with comments across the web, I’ve come to see two diametrically opposed positions. One insists on indignant condemnation of two men who were not even charged as if they were part of some nefarious conspiracy to enable a pedophile to run loose and harm other victims. The other side simply chooses to wait for real information prior to judging two men who seem to have led good productive and helpful lives. We quite rightly give the benefit of the doubt that we’ve got the picture from the summary of allegations designed to justify an indictment.

You are correct in my opinion. Mike and Joe went ahead and contacted the AD and VP for campus police even though what Mike saw left him far from certain. He acted without certainty it seems because he decided it was the right thing to do. Sandusky should never have showered with those young boys – he said so himself. If that is all he was guilty of doing on March 1, 2002 as he claims I doubt the prosecution will even act on those counts of the indictment since they evidently do not have the boy involved as a witness. That may well leave Joe and Mike without a chance to tell their story in court and they will have been scarred and marred by this forever. So many people just want to believe the worst of people – even good people like Joe who has a lifetime of service and good deeds to support a high regard for his character.

Why are otherwise sensible people driven to leap to judgment of those who seem to be from all accounts – very good people?
The answer: Because of a media, a DA, and a Board of Trustees that failed to reasonably assess the summary of allegations as an incomplete and very biased most damaging and damning take on the Mike McQueary’s highly edited version of his answers to investigators.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Nov 27, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Reading the reactions of many to this and many additional articles with comments across the web, I’ve come to see two diametrically opposed positions. One insists on indignant condemnation of two men who were not even charged as if they were part of some nefarious conspiracy to enable a pedophile to run loose and harm other victims. The other side simply chooses to wait for real information prior to judging two men who seem to have led good productive and helpful lives.

This is a point I’ve tried to make over and over, not on BSD but in real life, but it doesn’t seem to get across. By taking the “wait for all the facts” approach, somehow we are supporting child molestation and defending everyone who was involved actions, or inactions. I try to apply a logical approach to most aspects of my life (which is very difficult to do, of course, and no one can do it fully)—and in doing so, I try to remind myself that I don’t know everything and see everything, whether it’s a case as huge as this or the fact that my dinner took 45 minutes to come out of the kitchen at the restaurant I was at. I could yell at the waiter, tip him $1, when he very well might have had nothing to do with it—the kitchen staff could have ignored the order, the computer system could have gone down, or they might have run out of some ingredient and had to run to the grocery store.

Obviously a poor analogy, but so much anger that courses through the veins of our society might well be tempered by stepping back and realizing and admitting that we all don’t know everything…and we might very well never know everything. And, will the public knowing everything change anything? It can’t change what happened to the victims. It may or may not change how Sandusky is punished. It sure as hell won’t change how disgusted I am with Sandusky and the Administration’s handling of this case.

Knowing everything won’t change the majority public opinion of Joe, at least not for many, many years, if more information comes out for the better. And I doubt more information could come out for the worse—or else Joe would have been charged. If anything that even in some small way comes out and redeems him, that will be buried, and many in the media (and general public) will flat-out disbelieve it. Because many people already have their minds made up, and will refuse to admit they didn’t know everything when they made up their mind at first.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Nov 29, 2011 7:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

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