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Letter from Brandon Short



Got this emailed from my dad ...

Captains:

It would be an understatement to say that we are saddened by the recent allegations regarding Jerry Sandusky and the subsequent fallout. If these allegations are true then Jerry used Penn State Football and every one of us who may have helped Jerry with The Second Mile to lure in at risk children and then exploit them both mentally and physically. I thought that I knew Jerry Sandusky extremely well. Jerry was my position coach for five years and I have spent countless hours with him one on one putting in game plans and discussing ways to help him grow The Second Mile. I cannot express the confusion, pain, and anger I feel every time I think of Jerry committing such vicious crimes. With that said, at this extremely dark hour we have failed to see that another crime has been committed.

In the media fire storm that ensued the damning allegations against Jerry a lead villain has emerged; Joe Paterno. Not Jerry Sandusky, Tim Curley, or Gary Schultz but Joe the man who took second hand information and immediately gave it to his superior and the chief of university police.

My wife and I were fortunate enough to spend a few hours with Joe and Sue the day after the Board of Trustees made the decision to fire Joe. Even at the lowest point of his life, in typical Joe fashion Coach was more concerned with how his current and former players were doing than he was with his own situation. All of us know the immeasurable quality of Joe’s character and we also know that he’s a fighter. Coach pulled out his notes and said that he was ready to hold a press conference in his backyard to answer any questions and clear up any uncertainty the day after he was fired. However his advisers thought that it would appear defensive and be a mistake.
Joe assured me that Mike McQueary never told him that he saw Jerry Sandusky raping a boy in our locker room shower. Joe immediately went to his superiors and arranged a meeting with Mike, Tim Curley, PSU athletic director, and Gray Schultz, chief of university police. Remember that Jerry was not a football coach at the time and therefore Joe had no authority to do anything other than report what Mike told him to the authorities (which he did). Joe trusted Penn State’s Athletic Director and its Chief of Police to do their jobs and it appears they didn’t. The university
ultimately fired Joe Paterno because it didn’t do its job. And that is a crime.

Joe Paterno has always had the courage to stand up and fight for the people in his life. Joe regularly put his neck on the line and believed in many of us when nobody else would. In the past, Joe has supported us because he knew the character of the men that we’ve become. We all know Joe in a way that rest of the world does not. We know Joe’s true character. And now it’s time for us to stand up for him in his time of need.

With the exception of a few brave men, there has been a deafening silence from the Penn State Football family regarding Coach Paterno and what has made Penn State a special place for the last half century. We owe it to each other to speak up and do for Joe what he has always done for us.
Attached is a link to a recent Wall Street Journal article which attacks Coach Paterno for defending his players and calls Penn State an undisciplined program.

http://online.wsj.com/article/..._LEFTTopStories

There have been suggestions on specific actions that we can take to support our program. Following the holiday, we plan on sending you a rough draft of an action plan for your review. Thanks and have a good holiday weekend. WE ARE!
Brandon

Aww, look at you. You created a Fanpost! Any content from a premium site that requires a subscription will be deleted once we catch wind of it. If you simply want to share a link, quote, or video, please consider using Fanshots instead. Thanks.

Comment 295 comments  |  20 recs  | 

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Inspiring...

…Given what has happened with Franco Harris, I hope these men are willing to accept whatever consequences their public association with Joe Paterno will bring. I think they will be.

by Dr Screenpass on Nov 28, 2011 8:22 PM EST reply actions  

Brilliant blood brilliant

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 28, 2011 8:33 PM EST reply actions  

Hey Btd121 a question

Do you have any idea how testimony is provided to this Grand Jury?
Do guys like McQueary appear before the GJ on a witness stand and answer questions posed by the DA? Do the GJ members then ask questions if they wish to do so?
or
Is the Q&A from investigators sessions with McQueary parsed down to a statement and presented without hands on questioning from the GJ members?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 1, 2011 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Quick, everybody

refuse to read the “Chief of Police” line here.

Or, circle the wagons. Whatever.

by M1EK on Nov 28, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

WHO HAS MEN'S RHEA?

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 29, 2011 4:54 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Is that anything like Dia?

/hand goes up halfway than immediately pulled down.

He completed 17 of individuals 26 passes for 192 lanscaping your yard and two touchdowns - Chan Luu

by rahpsu92 on Nov 29, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Haven't you ever seen

See No Evil, Hear No Evil?

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 29, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

It's coming from Short

He’s paraphrasing what Joe said. The misinterpretation of Schultz’s role may be Paterno’s but is more likely Short’s.

And it also contradicts eleventy billion of you guys’ claims that nobody ever said Schultz was the Chief of Police and therefore wasn’t misinformed or trying to misinform others.

by M1EK on Nov 29, 2011 9:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Sigh.

You’re missing the point.

I’ve been attacked like Custer for daring to point out that many of the people inside the wagon-circle have been attacking the media for being ignorant of the fact that Paterno “went to the police”, “went to the chief of police”, etc.

The response was “you’re making it up. Nobody ever said ‘chief of police’”.

Today, the letter from Brandon Short contains a clear indication that somebody is saying “chief of police”.

That is all.

by M1EK on Nov 29, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Not going to respond to

comments in this tone. Rephrase more civilly if you actually want it to be engaged.

Thanks.

by M1EK on Nov 29, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Richard?

Is that you Richard!?

I, for one, plan to continue my life long contempt for the powers that be and I fully expect to be disappointed with whatever choice is made. ~PSUgirl

by jman07 on Nov 29, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

What tone is that? Honesty?

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 29, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Not only were the police notified when notifying Schultz

If the defense attorney is correct in saying that Curley contacted Sandusky after hearing whatever McQueary had to say and if Sandusky gave Curley the alleged victim 2’s phone number – it would seem obvious that Curley or Schultz or their proxy (for example a campus police investigator) would have called the boy and learned that he was not subject to sexual abuse on March 1, 2002

Given Sandusky’s denial that anything other than horseplay occurred backed up by the statement of the boy in question and less than certain statements by McQueary who admitted to being limited by distance, water or steam, a few seconds of time and a mindstate of shocked disbelief – it would be clear to Curley, Schultz, and any investigator that there was nothing to report. McQueary was uncertain and possibly mistaken – Sandusky was certain and a pillar of the community backed up by the kid
So what was there to report?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 1, 2011 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

this a million times

how are situations like this (though obviously not exactly like this, but serious situations) handled normally?

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN

by skarocksoi on Nov 29, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually

I am assuming far from the worst. If you don’t see that, you need to step back and think about what the worst actually is.

In this whole exercise, I have been engaged in trying to figure out which scenarios are more likely – while admitting the entire time that the unlikely scenarios can still be true. For instance, for Paterno not to go back and check again with McQueary? Possible, but unlikely. He’d have to be dumb or evil not to do that, and I don’t think he is either of those things.

by M1EK on Nov 29, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Rephrase more civilly and I’ll be glad to answer. Including the title above.

by M1EK on Nov 29, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Referring to

“Wow, you are the new Flip Flopper of 2012”

Try again without that kind of rhetoric and I’ll try my best too.

HTH.

by M1EK on Nov 29, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Then don't expect a response.

I wouldn’t expect one if I treated you that way.

by M1EK on Nov 29, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Throwing it out there

Arguing with M1EK is probably not going to get you any satisfaction just more frustration. I’ve choose to ignore.

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 30, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Worse it will

probably get you banned for being un-civil

by FB6244 on Dec 1, 2011 8:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually the WORST for you would appear to be this:

since you seem so invested in proving that PSU, Paterno, and others were in the wrong.

But what makes logical sense M1EK?
McQueary say he can’t be certain but what he saw could have been horseplay, or fondling or something sexual or anal intercourse. He just isn’t sure but it made him uncomfortable.
So why wouldn’t Curley or Schultz ask Sandusky themselves or through a campus police officer for his version of the McQueary described events? It makes no sense that they would not. And if they were told a credible story by Sandusky who then gave them the name and number of the alleged victim why wouldn’t they contact that boy or have him contacted by a campus police investigator?

Now it seems likely that they would do those things and that the story told by Sandusky turned out to be credible and was backed up by the alleged victim 2 who said nothing happened but horseplay in the showers. That fits with what we know now.

McQueary likely gave a confused and conflicted account of what he presumed instead of a certain and clear accusation because it is likely he could not be certain. With that on one side of the equation and on the other the word of a respected community leader and head of a charity that must have seemed definite and credible and to cap it off the boy in question agreed with Sandusky’s version of events.

That’s it. There is nothing to report to any other authority because there was nothing to investigate. McQueary was not certain and Sandusky and the boy say nothing sexual happened so what is left to investigate?

I will even go further and suggest that Curley informed both Paterno and McQueary what they found out and they were satisfied with the report they got. In fact McQueary was so satisfied he agreed to be coached by Sandusky at the end of that month in a charity football game. Does that sound like a guy who was certain that Sandusky was raping a 10 year old boy?

Logic and reason M1EK. Occams Razor – the simplest explanation is most likely true. One only needs to call police IF there is a credible report of criminal activity and McQueary’s report would have been an uncertain suspicion that could easily be discounted or verified by contacting Sandusky and the alleged victim.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 1, 2011 9:25 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You keep saying that

“McQueary says he can’t be certain [what he saw]”.

This is a gigantic assumption given the GJ presentment and McQueary’s statements since then. It does not seem very supportable by the information we do have.

Also, cut it out. I am personally offended at your first sentence.

by M1EK on Dec 2, 2011 9:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not a psychologist

but it wouldn’t shock me to learn that one’s recollection of an event becomes more crystallized the more time that passes since said event. That does not mean that it becomes more correct, but after telling yourself and others the story so many times, the events start to settle into place (especially after you are forced to get your story together for testimony in front of a grand jury).

In a somewhat similar phenomenon, when witnesses see a suspect, the moment they start describing what the suspect looks like in words, the less accurate they become at being able to recognize that suspect looks like. Something about converting the mental image into an actual description (using words).

(Heh, I just looked up the story to link here and completely forgot where I had originally read it, but I find it a bit eery what case it pertained to: http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom/2006/04/the_duke_case.html )

by The JuggerNitt on Dec 2, 2011 9:20 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

That reasoning is unsupportable M1EK

First regarding the one sided and biased summary of allegations used to justify indictment of Sandusky known by you as ‘the presentment’.

Suppose that McQueary is on the witness stand at the grand jury and the only lawyer asking questions present is the DA or prosecutor
Since there is no opposing counsel to object to leading questions is it possible for the DA or prosecuting attorney to ask Mike in front of the GJ like this:

You entered the locker room around 9pm and heard rhythmic slapping sounds?
Yes
These slapping sounds might have been sexual activity?
Yes
What did you first see when you looked in the showers?
Sandusky was behind a young boy – both were naked and the boy had his hands on the wall of the showers?
Did you think there was sexual activity?
Yes
Did you think Sandusky was subjecting the boy to anal intercourse?
Yes
Did they see you?
Yes
What was your state of mind?
I was dumbfounded and shocked
And what did you do?
I went into a nearby office to call my father.
And did you tell Joe Paterno about this?
Yes
And eventually you told Tim Curley and Gary Schultz?
Yes
Thank you for your testimony Mr. McQueary

The DA purposely does not ask if McQueary is certain
or how far away he was, or if there was a lot of steam and water, or how long he observed what he observed or if he thought it might have been horseplay or fondling or something of a sexual nature not anal rape.
He does not ask specifically what was told to Curley or Schultz or Paterno
He does not need any of that to indict Sandusky.

Is that possible? of course it is.
and this is the main statement in an email from McQueary

I did stop it, not physically … but made sure it was stopped when I left that locker room … I did have discussions with police and with the official at the university in charge of police …. no one can imagine my thoughts or wants to be in my shoes for those 30-45 seconds … trust me.
Do with this what you want … but I am getting hammered for handling this the right way … or what I thought at the time was right … I had to make tough impacting quick decisions.
This is off record … again … I have not and will not say anything to anyone else.
along with “There is a lot more to this that will be coming out” or words to that effect.
Which of those “statements” casts doubt on my assumption that McQueary was not certain?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 2, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

In addition

it appears to me from his statement that McQueary is trying to distance himself from the Grand Jury summary of his position by clearly stating that he is getting hammered for handling the event the right way.

The Grand Jury report has led the media and the public to question his handling of the situation – if you don’t realize that you have a big problem.

All of that runs counter to your constant support of the forces that condemn Paterno for some moral lapse of judgment.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 2, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

one small request

do you think you could maybe stop posting the same exact comments in multiple places? Or at the very least put the old, re-used comments in block quote while putting new stuff outside of the blocks? I’ve gotten into the habit of just skipping the posts that look like repeats, but on occasion there’s been new stuff added in that I’ve missed.

by The JuggerNitt on Dec 2, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry about that

it seems I’ve been chasing the same or very similar comments in three different threads the past two days and I forget what’s been posted where in the Shultz =/ cops thread, my perjury thread and this thread. My bad.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 3, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

One very simple example
no one can imagine my thoughts or wants to be in my shoes for those 30-45 seconds … trust me.

is not very consistent with the idea that he just saw something vague through the steam from far away.

by M1EK on Dec 3, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Not interested.

Try again, emphasis on civility.

by M1EK on Dec 3, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean

not interested in responding to you when it’s framed the way you did two comments above. I can’t respond with similar vitriol, so I won’t respond to vitriol-filled comments at all, except to indicate that part of the thread is over when the other participant resorts to inflammatory and/or attacking rhetoric.

Suffice to say I, as well as many people who are in possession of the same facts you have, remain unconvinced. Not because we are stupid, or uninformed, or trolling, but because your case isn’t very strong.

by M1EK on Dec 3, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Exchanging comments with you is only interesting because it is rare to find someone who is so totally off the mark so often.

If you choose to believe so, then more power to you. I can tell you that most of the people I saw agreeing with me that Paterno had to go a couple of weeks ago have stopped participating in these threads because they are less stubborn than me, but precisely zero of them have been convinced by you or others to change their mind.

by M1EK on Dec 3, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry

That is a personal attack. And if I did the same, I’d be banned. Believe you me, I have plenty more I’d say if I could.

by M1EK on Dec 4, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Me too

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 4, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe this really is Homer Simpson?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 4, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Please...

Some of us like Homer.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Dec 4, 2011 11:57 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I think a lot of these people who agreed with you

have realized there is more to the story than they first thought and have decided to wait and see.

I know some of them.

How do you know for sure why every single on of those people stopped participating?

"I've seen over 200 episodes of Law & Order and it's paying off big time!"

by letsgopsu on Dec 4, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I don't

I do know what they expressed when they stopped arguing. Since then, they could have changed their mind, but they haven’t said so.

by M1EK on Dec 4, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL JuggerNitt
Believe you me, I have plenty more I’d say if I could. – M1EK

It appears he has so much to say he can’t keep track of what he has said – even by reading his latest ramblings.
It is an odd pathology isn’t it? Post one thing and then deny you said it in the next few posts? Incredible.
But he has plenty more to say “IF HE COULD” – I wonder if he broke his typing fingers or simply ran out of BS?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 4, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I dont know if

People are giving ME1k the benefit of the doubt here and dont want to seem as if we just automatically dismiss any other views other than our own…

But its getting pretty monotonous with him going in circles and shoving down our throats that his opinion is right for the simple fact that it’s his opinion.

I’m getting really tired of reading him say the same thing over and over again. I wasnt convinced the first time and he gets more ridiculous the more I read.

I’m thinking he may actually be Bill Oreilly.

"I’m not a lawyer, but I read a lot of BSD" - psuphysicist

by The Heel on Dec 5, 2011 2:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Really?

This is your version of civil?

I’m saying what I honestly believe. Go ahead, call that batshit insane again, please.

by M1EK on Dec 5, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not self-contradictory.

It’s an opinion you vehemently disagree with which is being presented just as strongly as is yours. Many people at BSD have a hard time dealing with arguments held as strongly as theirs, apparently, without resorting to accusations of mental illness.

by M1EK on Dec 6, 2011 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I think

Everyone who has not commented agrees that you are batshit crazy.

by FB6244 on Dec 6, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Presented as strongly...

In YOUR OPINION.

"I’m not a lawyer, but I read a lot of BSD" - psuphysicist

by The Heel on Dec 9, 2011 4:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I want to know who people think Joe SHOULD have gone to

If it was an issue on UP property, I would assume he would go to the UPPD. But who? A regular patrolman, and tell him a former asst coach was allegedly doing these horrible things? That officer would take Joe right to the top of the PD – either the chief or Schultz.

My assumption (b/c I’m admitting I don’t know!) is that there are SOPs for Personnel Issues that say Schultz is the guy to go to.

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Nov 29, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty sure SOP was for Joe to call Curley...

I’d bet good money that Curley’s SOP is to call in Schultz.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 29, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

No argument there.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 29, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

That applies

if you’re being generous, to the first attempt to report the 2002 incident.

Subsequent to that? Six months later, when Sandusky is still sashaying around campus and hanging out with boys?

Go to some police, somebody, anywhere, who isn’t part of this chain of command that is pretty obviously corrupted.

by M1EK on Nov 29, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course we all know that saying

"I wish I had done more" is an admission of guilt

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 29, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Dont forget

“With the benefit of hindsite”

"I’m not a lawyer, but I read a lot of BSD" - psuphysicist

by The Heel on Dec 3, 2011 7:45 AM EST up reply actions  

In 2002

I had no idea anybody had reported any claims of anything to anybody anywhere. So we have to go hypothetical on this.

Paterno knew he had been involved in supposedly reporting an incident to the supposed authorities, and then nothing happened – Sandusky was still around, and still working with boys. Those are things we know to be true.

by M1EK on Nov 29, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

And how good would it look

If JoePa started getting more involve with an investigation of his former assistant? You don’t think there would be massive conspiracy being called on that?

His profile in State College basically prevented him from doing that, he is to well known, and it could have been detrminetal to an investigation.

by AriesGD on Nov 29, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

first he would have to know which police to meddle with

and we all know how good he is at figuring out jurisdictions.

by The JuggerNitt on Nov 29, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Don't get started on jurisdiction

I beat that one in another thread till it died, came back and asked me to stop beating it’s dead body.

by AriesGD on Nov 29, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I've always pictured him prancing.

Perhaps gallivanting…

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 29, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

traipsing...

There really IS a world of possibility here.

Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
#FireCraigJames

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Nov 29, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Using Chris's words here

I thought it was a powerful image.

by M1EK on Nov 29, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, not messing with you at all.

I really do hope he sashayed.

A pandemic of cowardice sweeps the nation.

by WorldBFat on Nov 29, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

If he sashayed

and people weren’t asking questions on their own, irregardless of any knowledge of allegations, then we’re beyond saving as a species.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 29, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Only who can prevent forest fires?

You chose “you”, referring to me. That is incorrect. The correct answer is You!

The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.

We (Still) Are...

by PSU_Buch on Nov 29, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

M1EK I have a question for you...

What do you think of the reports of McQueary participating in Sandusky’s golf tournament and hanging out with Sandusky immediately following the 2002 “alleged” incident?

I have never seen you make any remarks on it.

As in… If he was so absolutely positive on what he saw… why would HE associate himself with Sandusky afterwards?

"I’m not a lawyer, but I read a lot of BSD" - psuphysicist

by The Heel on Dec 5, 2011 2:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Unclear

The timelines associated with that event and whether Sandusky and McQueary ever actually ran into each other again have not been clearly established.

by M1EK on Dec 5, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

To be clear

The presence or absence of McQueary at various Sandusky-related events is LESS CLEAR than anything else in this whole affair.

by M1EK on Dec 5, 2011 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Likely one of the clearest things in this whole affair
McQueary played in and Sandusky coached in the annual Easter Bowl benefiting Easter Seals Central Pennsylvania on March 28, 2002, according to a review of news archives from the time period. McQueary, a former Penn State quarterback, also played in a June 21, 2002, celebrity golf tournament benefitting Sandusky’s charity, The Second Mile. .McQueary played in Second Mile golf tournament again in 2003 and was again on the field for the Easter Seals flag football game, with Sandusky coaching, in April 2004.

Not that it make any difference to your obsession.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 5, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I also laughed.

"I’m not a lawyer, but I read a lot of BSD" - psuphysicist

by The Heel on Dec 9, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

My bad again

I should speculate wildly that Joe Paterno and Mike McQueary kicked sand in M1EK’s face – stole his girlfriend -and dumped him off the tackling dummy squad prior to turning him over to campus police who embarrassed him. Thus creating an unreasoned hatred for the PSU football program and campus police.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 5, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

Other reports from the more credible journalists (according to your side!) indicated that at least one, maybe more, of those events’ publicity said McQueary was “scheduled to attend” and those reports were careful to not say whether he actually did. For instance:

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/mcqueary_attended_sandusky_fun.html

“Several former Penn State football players and coaches will be participating. Among those will be Kurt Allerman, Chris Bahr, Ralph Baker, Todd Blackledge, Bob Campbell, Tom Cherry, Rich D’Amico, Tom Donchez, John Ebersole, Scott Fitzkee, Fran Ganter, Eddie Johnson, Mike McQueary, Chet Parlavecchio, Wally Richardson, John Skorupan, Larry and Paul Suhey, Blair Thomas and Leo Wisniewski to name a few

Also note first few comments. Ganim has not, to my knowledge, come back and said McQueary actually did attend. I trust her reporting on this matter more than I do ESPN, just like you guys claim to do, by the way.

by M1EK on Dec 6, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Other things that are unclear

what McQueary did at these events, if he in fact attended; whether he attended upon advice of others; and whether, as one commenter put it, he was “hanging out with his arm around Sandusky”.

McQueary has testified to the GJ and was found credible. The key here is that you guys are falling into the defense’s trap – attack the credibility of witnesses on unrelated grounds – in your case because you desperately want to believe Joe did the right thing – but you’re doing so in service of a monster.

by M1EK on Dec 6, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

We do not have McQueary's testimony

A GJ Report will only include the portions of testimony that best fit the prosecution’s preferred picture of events to get the indictment.

To say there may be more to what happened from McQueary’s point of view does not necessarily mean that he is not credible. We do not know what his testimony, or anyone else’s, included in full.

If you do not desperately want to believe that Joe did the right thing, I am not sure what is wrong with you. Really, everyone should be desperately hoping that everyone here, including Sandusky, did the right thing, and that the allegations are BS. Same with at Syracuse and everywhere else.

I would take a few liars being out there over a serial child molester any day and anywhere. Of course, this is unlikely and I do believe that Sandusky did horrible thing, but I think we should desperately hope that he did not.

Also, no one here is doing any service for anyone in a criminal proceeding. This is a discussion, we are not involved in the trial, nor are we largely in the public eye. Do not be so dramatic.

by FB_Dive_or_Bust on Dec 6, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Desperately wanting to believe

I want to believe it too, but logic keeps getting in the way. Joe was my hero, and I was fairly blind about it until around the apartment incident a few years back.

by M1EK on Dec 6, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Apartment Incident

Admittedly I received most of my information from a student (23 year old senior, not 17 year old freshman) at the time, which can be a good source, or a terrible source.

But I am under the impression that the individuals that acted the worst (using beer bottles, kicking bystanders while down) were kicked off the team or suspended from actual games.

Scirrotto was not suspended beyond the summer as it appeared he did not participate in the more heinous acts, but was just part of the fight, and that King was actually breaking the fight up.

Kids get in fights. Fighting should not be commended, but a fight at a college is not a big deal. What is a big deal is when it involves using beer bottles on faces. It seems the individuals using such force received serious punishment.

Paterno may or may not have acted inappropriately in the 2002 Sandusky events (I personally will give him the benefit of the doubt until more facts about him are investigated/released-as everyone deserves) but I do not see any problem in how he handled the apartment incident. What were your biggest issues with it?

Once more, I apologize if I am misinformed regarding the events, I only know what I was told and what made it to the public through media.

by FB_Dive_or_Bust on Dec 6, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Won't reopen

This would be a huge mistake. Suffice to say it was somewhat controversial, and I found myself outside the majority opinion on this site. Most of the disagreement stemmed on the characterization of it as “a fight” versus what I would have called it.

by M1EK on Dec 7, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Got ya

Sorry new around these parts so I did not read all of it then. Respect your decision.

by FB_Dive_or_Bust on Dec 9, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

LOL

yeah right – you’re so desperate you take a wild shot at anything that tends to suggest we should not rush to judgment.

You’ve made up your mind and almost singlehandedly fight against any “wait and see” suggestion.

It’s difficult to comprehend the mindset that wants everyone to accept the guilt of PSU, Paterno, McQueary, Curley and Schultz you demonstrate with such constant repetition.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 6, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually M1EK

I never meant to discredit him, I just noticed that you never seemed to bring it up.

"I’m not a lawyer, but I read a lot of BSD" - psuphysicist

by The Heel on Dec 9, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

WEAK and WRONG

M1EK says

Other reports from the more credible journalists (according to your side!) indicated that at least one, maybe more, of those events’ publicity said McQueary was "scheduled to attend" and those reports were careful to not say whether he actually did. For instance:

but the article says
"Several former Penn State football players and coaches will be participating
Not only is this an incredibly weak argument since the report he is trying to refute actually says:
McQueary played in and Sandusky coached in the annual Easter Bowl benefiting Easter Seals Central Pennsylvania on March 28, 2002, according to a review of news archives from the time period. McQueary, a former Penn State quarterback, also played in a June 21, 2002, celebrity golf tournament benefitting Sandusky’s charity, The Second Mile. .McQueary played in Second Mile golf tournament again in 2003 and was again on the field for the Easter Seals flag football game, with Sandusky coaching, in April 2004.
A very definite ‘he played in’ as to each of these events.

The only UNCLEAR think here is M1EK’s mind and ability to read and comprehend.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Dec 6, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Yeah that sounds pretty clear thank you Aurabass

"I’m not a lawyer, but I read a lot of BSD" - psuphysicist

by The Heel on Dec 9, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I still would like to see Rashard Casey defend Joe.

You know…return the favor. Show the same faith in Joe that Joe showed in him.

Brandon Short has always (since his high school days at the ’Port) been a class act, a great football player, and a terrific leader.

by J Breezy on Nov 28, 2011 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

That's awesome... just awesome

Tom Bradley- Bringing back Success with Honor since 11/9/11 (Since the BoT aren't)
Forget the 409 wins and 2 national championships. Joe Paterno helped mold thousands of young men into productive members of our society.

by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Nov 28, 2011 8:56 PM EST reply actions  

I doubt the notes will come out in a public forum

Except in a court of law, since it could be used against Curey and Schultz, for their perjury trial.

Which I hope comes around sooner rather than later.

by AriesGD on Nov 28, 2011 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Speaking of Derry

Weren’t he and his wife spending Thanksgiving with the Paternos?
Somebody send out the Derry signal!

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Nov 28, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

This knowledge may have "biased" my reaction

I mentioned something about “a journal” before Paterno was even fired. I felt pretty good about my sources when Derry said the same thing a few days later. (You’re the man Derry!)

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 28, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I do recall you saying something about this

so that would make Short the 2nd source I have heard it from. My bad. Credit where credit is due.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Nov 28, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

My source is one degree

of separation from someone who has seen the notes, so I was a little hesitant. It’s nice to hear from direct sources like Derry and Short to lend it more credibility.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 28, 2011 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

And that was supposed to be 3rd source

I’m slipping

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Nov 28, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Gotta break my old 43 jersey back out.

Kudos to Brandon for standing up. I hope this will perhaps soften Rambler’s heart on him at least a bit. ;)

The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.

We (Still) Are...

by PSU_Buch on Nov 28, 2011 9:03 PM EST reply actions  

Is this legit?

It just seems too “right” that I’m skeptical (sorta how I feel about that rumored “Good news for Penn State if true” post)

by The JuggerNitt on Nov 28, 2011 9:07 PM EST reply actions  

Quiet, you.

We need this. Even if it is just salving the situation for a little while…

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 28, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I just don't want to have the carpet pulled out from under me

if/when this is revealed to be wishful thinking.

It seem’s JoePa’s house was under constant surveillance that next day. It was said that friends and family visited, but was Short one of them?

by The JuggerNitt on Nov 28, 2011 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Short's visit to the Paternos' home confirmed

via USA Today: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/story/2011-11-11/penn-state-joe-paterno-fired/51165542/1

This is does not confirm the veracity of the letter quoted above, of course, but does answer the question of whether Brandon visited Joe in State College during Worst Week Ever.

The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.

We (Still) Are...

by PSU_Buch on Nov 28, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I should have said 'authenticity'

not ‘veracity.’ It has been a long day.

The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.

We (Still) Are...

by PSU_Buch on Nov 28, 2011 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd for asking

what we’ve all been wondering!

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 29, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Heh

None of the above actually. It’s most commonly pronounced “book” (occasionally with a long “u” sound, both are acceptable) – nickname/shortening of my longer, tougher-to-spell/pronounce last name.

Thanks very much for the kind words; I appreciate it.

The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.

We (Still) Are...

by PSU_Buch on Nov 29, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Amen, brother

“I know it’s a U, but it’s pronounced like an I”

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Nov 29, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm still trying to explain to the Missus that Koehn is pronounced 'cane'.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 29, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Boehner

I don’t care how anyone else pronounces it, I pronounce it like Mike Seaver’s goofy friend.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 29, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

The full name's Italian actually

but I’ve got plenty of coalcracker PA Dutch blood too!

The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.

We (Still) Are...

by PSU_Buch on Nov 29, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Was the spelling of your surname changed upon immigration?

“Buch” is not common in Italian – unless of course it was originally spelled “Bucc” followed by an A, O or (rarely) U, in which case it would sound like “book” with a long U.

If “Bucc” were followed by E or I, it would be pronounced like Booch (see: John Buccigross from the channel I used to watch).

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 29, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm skeptical as well

Using the word skeptical correctly, and not like most people do nowadays (a synonym for "I think it’s bullshit).

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Nov 28, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Anyone have contact info for Short? We could find out if it is real very quickly.

If it is, I would like to send him a note of appreciation for his efforts.

by Btd121 on Nov 28, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Calling hbeach08....

Help us out bro!

No matter what you think about the current situation, support the players, they deserve our respect.

by Paige2PSU on Nov 29, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Sadly

I see I’m not alone in thinking that it seems too good to be true. I hope it is.

Let's go State

Beat Wisconsin!

by jman07 on Nov 29, 2011 6:53 AM EST up reply actions  

I am skeptical of this as well

a couple of questions I have:

1) Did markawiser’s dad play football and if so was he a captain?

2) Is there a list serve for all former captains?

I would think that Short would have emailed this to friends from when he was there regardless of whether they were captains or not

Reporter: Can you give us a touchdown celebration, one that you would get penalized for?
Moye: I play at Penn State. I don’t celebrate.

by psupride on Nov 29, 2011 8:44 AM EST reply actions  

As to your second question

I have no evidence to back this up other than the nice shiny book sitting on my coffee table, but I’d have to imagine that there exists some nice directory of captains contact info after the creation of “Letters to Joe.” Somebody had to keep track of how they contacted 40+ years of Captains.

I am a Penn State Nittany Lion, and I played for the legendary Joe Paterno, and more importantly, I am a man because of it. - Lavar Arrington

by LegalLion on Nov 29, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

All of my PSU reference tomes are at home...

I couldn’t find a captains list on www.nittanyanthology.com or on www.gopsusports.com.

however here’s a list of contributing captains to the Letters to Joe book
http://www.letterstojoe.org/pages/the-captains

He completed 17 of individuals 26 passes for 192 lanscaping your yard and two touchdowns - Chan Luu

by rahpsu92 on Nov 29, 2011 1:03 PM EST reply actions  

The Captains during Joe's years

are listed in the Media Guide under the Game-by-Game section.

*

by Smee on Nov 29, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

It's sad

to see the very real disconnect between true leadership and the masses. Even more so from my fellow PSU alums. All this emotional parsing and deconstructing in an effort to make sense of failed leadership is understandable, at first. But to see it continue with such fervor shows me that the lack of true leadership in our country has produced generations now of citizens incapable of even recognizing it. Short shows loyalty and passion, but above all ignorance, just like many here. No matter how we got there, all those leaders involved are out of the picture, and that is the right way for PSU to proceed as an institution to restore the public trust, learn and move on from this tragedy.

by SadValley on Nov 29, 2011 7:43 PM EST reply actions  

NC

Sorry — That was directed at SadValley. Poor replying ettiquette on my part. Apologies.

*

by Smee on Nov 29, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty sure it was directed at Carlotta.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Nov 29, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Sir

What is sad, is that in a society today we have to even bother with the public “Trust.” as I see it, the public is the one who failed this time along with the media in blasting out “Maybes” as “Truth” I stand by JoePa unless I see a reason other wise not too. AND YES I LOVE MY BLUE KOOL-AID

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 29, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

great, stand by him

the institution has a greater responsibility than just one man. I will point out what Spanier himself said after being let go:

“Penn State and its Board of Trustees are in the throes of dealing with and recovering from this crisis and there is wisdom in a transition in leadership so that there are no distractions in allowing the university to move forward.”

by SadValley on Nov 30, 2011 6:40 AM EST up reply actions  

You couldn't be more correct.

This was the true leadership that was needed and never materialized. Unfortunately, Sad Valley is one of people he laments in his post : “the lack of true leadership in our country has produced generations now of citizens incapable of even recognizing it.”

.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts

by SarcasmJam on Nov 30, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This may be the best statement I have read regarding the PSU admin and this entire sordid affair.

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Nov 30, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Amen, Brandon

I wear my Penn State Rose Bowl hat every day when I’m out and about. As you can imagine, people like to comment. As you might not imagine, 99% of the comments are in support of Joe. What I most often hear goes something like this, "It’s a shame Paterno had to be railroaded out like that." People I have talked with in-depth about the issue are mostly in-the-know western and west coast college football fans and sports bettors. Almost to a person, they (like most of us) feel that Joe did what he was supposed to do and agree that the out of control media is mostly responsible. I guess I just wanted to let people know that Joe is still highly respected among college football fans around the country.

by uforabin on Nov 30, 2011 10:59 AM EST reply actions   2 recs

I have only met one person

off of the internet who thinks what happened to JoePa was right, or fair. And this ranges from PSU diehard fans to completely unbiased non sports fans. The one guy who was the exception is my nieghbor who is also a PSU grad and fan.

by FB6244 on Nov 30, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I have had teh same experience in essence

I try not and bring it up at time, since I get a big overly passionate about this all.

But I think the best example of how this was all reflected upon the general public is a quote from my grandma.

She has no allegiance to PSU, only that I and my brother follow them, so when this all broke she only read some things in the paper. One day, the day after JoePa was fired, my mom was talking to her and she told my grandma, “you know they fired JoePa”, my grandma looked at my mom and said, “why, he didn’t do anything wrong”. She doesn’t watch ESPN, doesn’t watch sports, only reads a few things in the paper, and avoids the sports section, and this was her conclusion. I feel that alot of people from across the country have this general idea about this situation,

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin

by AriesGD on Nov 30, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I think outside of the sports world

a lot of people got the “he is being used as a witness by the prosecution” and “properly reported” and wondered what all the fuss is about him for.

by FB6244 on Dec 1, 2011 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Geez, you guys are lucky.

I’ve yet to have one person defend Paterno to me off the internet. 100% against him…all say he had to know and/or should have done more. Bought the media narrative hook, line, and sinker.

Of course I’m in W. Pa where the level of hate for Paterno and PSU is unrivaled.

by J Breezy on Nov 30, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, your peeps were haters before this happened

I have seen support from pretty much everyone. Except one Gator fan who lives in NC. When I explained the situation, she said “I didn’t hear that on TV”

Today is the day I died inside 11/9/11

by letsgopsu on Nov 30, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

My experience has been that the further you get away from PA, the more reasonable people are being. (in my opinion)

Reactions here in PA have been visceral. But friends from other states and Canada have indicated to me most people think the media coverage and jump to crucify Paterno was ridiculous.

by Btd121 on Nov 30, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I have had two non-Penn State people agree with me, but that may be because I have taken them to games in the past, so they aren't completely outside of Penn State.

I have had at least five people who know me (or have known me in the past) completely jump at me for what they see as “defending” Joe (when, in point of fact, all I have said is that I feel we should wait for all the facts before we vilify him).

Granted, I am not too far from PA (I live right outside of DC, in MD), but still feel like I’m forced into a defensive position that isn’t really my place.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Dec 1, 2011 8:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I've definitely had a mix of people on both sides.

I’ve had the people say, “why are they firing Paterno?” as well as the, “you just don’t get it. Think of the victims, Paterno didn’t do his moral obligation”. When I point out to the second group that no one yet knows if Paterno did his moral duty or not, they just reply, “you still don’t get it, think of the victims.” It makes me doubly frustrated, because it makes me feel these people honestly think I don’t give a shit about the victims of child sexual abuse just because I’m also outraged at witch hunts.

by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I've definitely had the second happen

I mean, all of the people who replied that way actually know me IRL. Words can’t describe if they would actually think that I wouldn’t care about the victims…obviously they didn’t know me at all.

and, just this morning, a former assistant manager of mine who started tweeting on the day all this broke that “All Penn State is child molesters” and other crap, saying that I literally said that child molestation was ok (which, obviously, I did NOT), and I subsequently blocked—I am now head-to-head with him in my fantasy football league this week. He changed his team name, just for this week, to “PSU boy touchers”. Super classy. I know I should be the better person and be above it—the guy is clearly a massive troll and ass—it just infuriates me to no end. I have other friends who have cut off contact with him as well because of this, people who are unafiliated with Penn State, but the fact that he sees this as OK just boggles my mind.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Dec 2, 2011 8:17 AM EST up reply actions  

It's been rough here in Chicago too

But this is B1G country so I have to deal with all the jerks from OSU, UM, MSU and Wisky. Oh, and all the idiots from ND. But that’s always a given.

by lexi1031 on Dec 1, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Screw

ND Just…GAHHH

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Dec 1, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I happened to be

on the USC campus to meet up with some friends for their game against UCLA after we got smacked around by Wisconsin last weekend. I also happened to be wearing my ‘Joe Knows Football’ shirt. Didn’t hear a single negative remark from the hundreds of tailgates I walked past trying to find mine. Did hear a lot of ‘Do it for Joe!’ and ‘Yeah JoePa!’ yells. Which was really cool, since I was bracing to get made fun of.

"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."

by LAPSU on Nov 30, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Make it two

Fair maybe not, but right, yes. Absolutely necessary. I don’t know what I am missing, but I don’t see how anyone can say Joe did not fail here. He is the one who preached to players to “do more”, he is the one who established the culture of the program, he is the one who controlled what happened in any and all things football at PSU, and he is the one who allowed Sandusky to continue to be at, in, and around the team and facilities after what was clearly a forced retirement in 1999. And what was the forced retirement for, well I hope we all know the answer to that now. Given that Joe knew the answer then and learned of new “issues” in 2002 and again in 2008 it is inexcusable that he did not do more than report to his superiors. It makes everything he preached hyphocritical. How would you feel if your child was a victim in 2010 knowing that Joe had even an inkling of what was happening and failed to do everything in his power to stop it. Is that who we want as the figure head of our university? I think not. In short, and it is sad, he had to go. Now let’s make Al Golden an offer he can’t refuse and move on.

by lhspsu on Nov 30, 2011 3:01 PM EST reply actions  

Hardly...

If you go to sleep and there is no snow on the ground and when you wake up there is snow, is it an assumption to say it snowed because you didn’t actually see it fall from the sky? It’s called circumstantial evidence. Most criminal cases and convictions are based on such evidence. While we’re not talking about a criminal wrong with regard to Joe here, that certainly is enough circumstantial evidence for him to be removed. That begs the question, why hasn’t Joe spoken. Why have his “advisors” kept him quiet? Because anything he says will open him and the university up to even more civil liability. While this IS an assumption, please feel free to provide an alternate, equally plausible assumption as to why a man in his waning years would not be screaming from the rooftops to protect what he built over a lifetime, his honor and good name. And don’t say it’s to keep the focus on the victims who he didn’t care enough about before to stop it.

by lhspsu on Nov 30, 2011 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

So these are now facts. Got it.

Why even have an investigation. Ihspsu has determined all of the facts for us. Everyone can go home now. Hanging at noon tomorrow.

You are correct that anything Joe says opens him up to more civil liability. But you are incorrect in assuming that means what he would say would actually incriminate him more. All it does is give the attorneys on the other side more ammunition to twist your words etc. They will discard anything that doesn’t support their position and only use what they can twist into something beneficial. (see Grand Jury presentment) This is what I do for a living. There is a reason that during civil depositions, you do not ask your own client questions. No matter how well he answers them, you are only giving the other side more ammunition. There are few exceptions, but generally, shut your client up as quickly as you can whether has done something wrong or not.

On a somewhat separate topic. Anyone see that Paterno was not included in the lawsuit filed today? Interesting.

by Btd121 on Nov 30, 2011 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

there are two reasons he may not be included, IMO

1: He didn’t do anything wrong in the eyes of the lawyer and the victim. This is the reason that those accused of defending Joe will assume.

2. The victim and his lawyer don’t want to be accused of vilifying Joe, and are worried of PA public outcry, since Joe owns PA. This is the reason many others will assume.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Dec 1, 2011 8:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, it's a tough call.

Yeah it is really irrelevant whether he was included or not because they could have included Santa Clause if they wanted. But I do think most Plaintiff’s attorneys would include him for several reasons. One, you get more publicity. Always a good thing when it comes to forcing settlement. Two, you never want to leave an empty chair for the other defendants to point at. That said, I appreciate that the Plaintiff’s attorney did the right thing here. He left out an innocent party, at least with facts currently known.

None of the news reports I saw pointed out Paterno wasn’t included among the defendants. Shocker.

by Btd121 on Dec 1, 2011 9:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Erickson wore a maroon and gold tie and talked about moving forward

Pangborn explained who he is and we still don’t know. Kirsch went over some numbers. Sims threw another fraternity/sorority under the bus. Weidemann talked about hedgehogs. Jones reminded us about the kids. (Sorry. I wasn’t there. Just kidding. Couldn’t resist :-))

*

by Smee on Nov 30, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Judge, jury, and....

As someone who does this for a living too, I understand and agree with what you are saying. However, the problem here is that we are not talking about criminal guilt or even civil liability. We are taking about saving the university from the blackhole it was being sucked into. What I think we can all agree is clear is that a culture of insulation and protect your own pervaded and that culture was a major factor in nothing more being done when major warning signs were present. That culture was present throughout the university which is why I, personally, believe that removing Joe and Spanier was necessary, but the entire Board should be replace as well. At least they brought in someone independent to conduct the investigation, but to truly heal a complete and thorough cleansing, in my humble opinion, is required. That includes the football staff.

by lhspsu on Nov 30, 2011 10:32 PM EST reply actions  

I feel like

That if we are going to use circumstantial evidence to do in Joe Pa lets look at the other side. He has a long history of being a beyond upstanding citizen. He also had a long history of having a high bar. That being said he did tell someone, I feel like if he was trying to cover he wouldn’t have and we still don’t know if MM told him a sanitized version or the actual version for sure. There are so many factors that would blow apart a circumstantial evidence bandwagon here to be honest.

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Nov 30, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd for this
But the University will be fine with time. There are too many good people and too many good things going on at that University to bring it down for more than a brief moment in time.

by jtothep on Dec 1, 2011 8:07 AM EST up reply actions  

For the record

While I disagree with the position, I do respect lhspsu’s well reasoned opinion. I think you’ve been respectful and non-trolling and hope you hang around and keep contributing.

.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts

by SarcasmJam on Dec 1, 2011 6:25 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Cosigned

This is how it’s done, people. Thanks Lh & Btd. A fine example of civil disagreement.

by jtothep on Dec 1, 2011 8:08 AM EST up reply actions  

The difficulty

The difficulty in this instance is that it is not a purely legal issue. I often tell my clients that while they must be aware of the legal consequences of what they say and do while they are in the midst of a legal action, they have to live their lives and cannot let the legal action drive everything they do. Life is too short, over 90 percent of cases settle, they take years, you could be hit by a bus in the interim, etc, etc. Here, a firestorm was brewing, the very core of our beliefs were being tested, alumni dollars at risk, recruits in question, applications and admissions at risk, bold steps had to be taken and quickly. Under those unique and one of a kind circumstances I simply do not know how Joe does not come out and deal with this a la Boeheim. Maybe there is no good answer, maybe any answer would have raised more questions, maybe there is much more going on than we will ever know. What I do know is that even though he told his superiors, there was no follow up. He knew (fact) of more than one allegation of this type of conduct. He knew Sandusky “hung out” with children. Yet he still allowed that bizarre behavior to occur at PSU, at the facilities and program he built. Even if McQueary didn’t tell him the specific lurid details, if you knew that someone was in the shower with a 10 year old, would you have allowed that person to still be around kids while you were present if you could have stopped it.

If Joe had followed up at the time, if he really cared about the victim then, there would have been a clean and clear break with Sandusky and the university and he, Joe, would still be patrolling the sidelines, or at least seated in the press box now.

by lhspsu on Dec 1, 2011 8:31 AM EST reply actions  

Can't say it much better than this. Clear assumptions. Again.

As for him talking, I think we all wish, at least a little bit, he would have said consequences be damned I’m going to defend myself. But you have an 85 year old man who if he makes one misstep, says one date wrong, it could severely hurt his credibility in court as well as the things he was trying to protect in the first place. I’m sure his attorneys, as well as the DA and probably the PSU attorneys, all told him to shut up. Just a no win situation.

by Btd121 on Dec 1, 2011 9:03 AM EST up reply actions  

I think he may have said he was going to do exactly that

which is why the Tuesday press conference got cancelled at the last minute, which increased the firestorm to blazing inferno by pissing off the MSM. They blamed that cancellation on Joe and assummed he must be hiding something, so they burned him at the stake.

.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts

by SarcasmJam on Dec 1, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Not just them

BEFORE the press conference, many people, myself included, assumed it would be meaningless performance art where Joe insisted on only answering questions about the football game and the media did their job and kept asking questions about the scandal anyways.

by M1EK on Dec 1, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I think

that’s what the University wanted it to be. It’s not unreasonable to think Joe had no intention of doing that and planned to stand up for himself then and there, but got silenced.

.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts

by SarcasmJam on Dec 1, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

No

Most of us assumed beforehand that’s what Joe would want it to be, is what I meant.

by M1EK on Dec 1, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree most people assumed that.

I did not. I actually felt the opposite, and also felt that was confirmed when Scott said Joe had wanted to do the press conference.

Obviously, no idea whether that is the real truth or not, but it is how I felt at the time and now.

.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts

by SarcasmJam on Dec 1, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts

by SarcasmJam on Dec 1, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not very civil.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Dec 1, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Damn women and their reasonable logic...

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Dec 1, 2011 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

well, I'm kind of a bitch

this whole thing has made me bitchy and angry

Today is the day I died inside 11/9/11

by letsgopsu on Dec 1, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Us Women us Logic to our advantage

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Dec 1, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Another BSDiva

This place is getting hot.

.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts

by SarcasmJam on Dec 2, 2011 9:05 AM EST up reply actions  

What you just said.

"I’m not a lawyer, but I read a lot of BSD" - psuphysicist

by The Heel on Dec 3, 2011 7:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I wonder what the rate of accusations against people in such positions is.

I’d imagine there are a higher than expected number of comments and/or complaints against people who work closely with children.

by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure its higher for people who work with at risk children

I dont have numbers to back it up, but I know I’ve heard something to that effect before and I’m sure the #s are easy to look up. It’s a different situation here since there is a witness involved, but I would argue the “he had kids around him all the time so someone should have known” argument is absolute bunk.

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN

by skarocksoi on Dec 2, 2011 7:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but I'm sure other people have had witnesses against them, too.

Some may have been mistaken, some may have had ulterior motives. Either way, I could see someone being at least somewhat skeptical when such an accusation is made, especially if they’ve heard similar unfounded accusations in the past (either about this specific person, or other people in similar situations).

Again, I’m in no way trying to condone or sugarcoat what Sandusky (allegedly) did, just how people could miss the signs, since, as you said, he was always around the kids in “proper” situations that people just likely got numb to the sight of seeing him with kids and made it harder to acknowledge when certain lines were being crossed.

As others have pointed out, having adults shower with kids (especially in sports settings where there’s only one communal shower) isn’t really that uncommon. The fact that they were doing it alone, late at night is an issue, but I could see how after 30+ years of similar, yet innocuous scenarios eventually certain behaviors just become the norm, and the line shifts a little bit. Not intentionally, of course, but due to desensitization.

by The JuggerNitt on Dec 2, 2011 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes

You are right, without all the fact coming out, which I hope they will, we are ALL assuming either one way or the other. Which leads back to the question at the heart of all this, was it the right decision to let Joe go when they did? Future history will answer that. An interesting point is what would be happening now if Joe was still the coach. Would we be in the process of moving on as we are now (with only us mentally masturbating these questions) or would every time the team took the field, Joe held a press conference, ESPN’s college football broadcast came on, etc. there be questions and headlines about what Joe said or didn’t say each day. IMO it would have remained a huge distraction (worse than it was the last two weeks) and the circus would continue. At least now, there is some calm, a page has been turned (for better or for worse) and hopefully the healing can begin. As you can tell by my posts, this is one alum who is pissed off that this happened (was allowed to happen) at my university.

by lhspsu on Dec 1, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

couldn't agree more

I don’t feel like I have assumed anything—aside from a verbal assumption that Joe feels just as bad for these kids as the rest of us do (a statement that got me yelled at by a coworker). The rest is a wait-and-see approach, deliberately attempting to not assume anything.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Dec 1, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

your co-worker deserves to be slapped.

Or at the very least have someone make an accusation against them, and then have everyone else be outraged when they A) deny it, and b) claim they care about the victims as much as everyone else.

by The JuggerNitt on Dec 1, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I was so close, believe me--and what sucks is that I get along really well with her otherwise

I ended up meeting with my manager (unrelated) later that day and completely broke down in front of her. This was a few weeks ago, right when it broke, and I had been having family issues as well—and this same coworker (incidentally, literally the only other person in my office in my department, so I have to work with her) has had a few days where she has ignored me the first 4 hours of the day when she has seen me wear my Penn State coat. Coincidence? maybe. But that’s too much of a coincidence, IMO.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Dec 2, 2011 8:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Problem is

Again mixing legal and real world. My problem is that in the real world I just cannot get over that reporting the incident McQueary relayed to higher ups is enough when it is the second instance you have knowledge of something like this even being alleged. Even “assuming” Joe did not know about the 1998 incident, given that McQueary, who was obviously trusted by him given his rise on the coaching staff (circumstanital evidence), was the source of the now “first” incident would in my mind raise a serious red flag. If you were in the facilities and saw Sandusky with children after hearing from McQueary and seeing how shaken up he was, wouldn’t you, as someone who counsel’s clients not to say anything that can be used against them later, have thought it might be a good and prudent idea to not have Sandusky around with kids in the facitiies? Would you at least follow up on the investigation you supposedly started by reporting to the higher ups to CYA? I don’t think Joe actively engaged in a coverup (although I don’t rule it out, I will not jump to that conclusion) but “Do more”, “don’t settle”, etc., simply sound hollow coming from him against that backdrop. That, to me, is the problem. When faith in the leader is lost he is, and can by definition no longer be, the leader.

by lhspsu on Dec 1, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

You don't know that he didn't do more.

.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts

by SarcasmJam on Dec 1, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

All assuming...

You don’t know he didn’t. And, if he did, why isn’t he screaming from the rooftops to “clear” his name. Remember, at every press conference, he only answers the questions he wants to, he is adept at handling the media and averting questions he does not want to answer. My experience with people at his stage in life is that they just don’t care about little things and prior to this Joe seemed to say whatever he wanted. I just don’t see how he doesn’t get in front of a mike and tell his story all else be damned. We’re talking about preserving his life’s work. More importantly why didn’t he do it 3 weeks ago or at least after the Board “threw him under the bus”, removed the statute and his name was taken off the trophy. What more did he have to lose then?

by lhspsu on Dec 1, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't know.

I feel like he almost did do exactly that – meaning get up in front of a mike and say whatever he wanted. Then the presser got canceled and I think he got advice that doing that wouldn’t be such a good idea. One of those reasons – and it is one I believe would sway Joe to stay quiet until the trial – is that whatever he has to reveal might help the monster get away with his horrible crimes for one reason or another. I believe Joe would let his legacy and name get temporarily eviscerated in order to make sure he doesn’t hurt the prosecution’s case.

.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts

by SarcasmJam on Dec 1, 2011 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

And we are back to this.

I am not assuming he did or did not follow-up. Period.

As for not speaking out, I thought we already agreed why he should not speak out? Why are you back to assuming his “guilt” because of silence?

Presidents don’t answer questions when under such a microscope but you expect an 85 year old football coach to just let it fly? Here comes my first assumption. You have been saying for 15 years he was too old and senile to coach but now he is omnipotent. Now you may accurately say I made an assumption.

If you would like another reason for him to not talk her you go. Preservation of wealth for his kids.

Again, sorry for typos.

I do not think they removed the statue.

by Btd121 on Dec 1, 2011 12:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Sandusky spoke out, must be innocent.

This is where the thinking must go if Joe being silent is a sign of guilt

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Dec 1, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

This is getting tiring

It is not assuming something when someone has testified to something and there is not a shred of evidence to prove it false. It IS assuming when you disregard that statement and lack contradictory evidence and state as if it is fact that he knew of the 98 incident.

Again you are assuming he did not follow-up. I am neither assuming he did or did not so please do not say I am assuming too. You are the one saying he definitively did not do something that at this point none of us know.

Please excuse any typos as I am on my mobile device.

by Btd121 on Dec 1, 2011 12:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Also, Nothing, Nothing in the GJ presentment is admissible in court. Nothing

Everything there is there to get an indictment. Any sworn testimony will have to be sworn to in court for it to be admissible and a judge will have to allow it.

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Dec 1, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Last one

Last one from me and then I will get a life. First, I hope you’re not driving while blogging. Second, I personally have been a big Joe supporter until this year, coincidentally…couldn’t stand the quarterback shuffle. Third, I am interested in your response to this:

given what Joe was told by McQueary, a person he put some level of trust in as evidenced by subsequent promotions, and given that Sandusky was around the facilities for years after with young children in tow, did Joe do enough (not legally) at any point in the intervening 3 years?

Are you satisfied with Joe’s actions knowing only these facts? If you are, then I agree to disagree. However, if, like me, you have a real problem with him allowing Sandusky (and I beileve if Joe said something it would have been done) to be around for 3 years after the McQueary sighting, then his removal was the right thing.

by lhspsu on Dec 1, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

The fact is,

you don’t know EXACTLY what McQueary said to Joe. The GJ presentment doesn’t give you that detail. So you are basing your conclusions on missing information and assumptions, not fact.

Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!

by Paige2PSU on Dec 1, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

What's going to set me off

is when more information comes out as the process goes on and articles and commenters say something about someone “changing a story”. Seriously, I might drop off the grid when that starts happening…go to Suriname or something.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Dec 1, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Congrats. You finally hit on something I can somewhat agree with.

That said, I still don’t think we have enough facts to make that call. I would need to know what McQueary told Paterno (we still don’t know this), what Paterno’s impression of the accusation was (i.e. did he think Sandusky was a rapist scumbag or did he think he was just doing some harmless yet stupid shit). I would also need to know how much Sandusky was at the facilities with kids, did Joe ever actually see him there with kids, were they supervised at the time, was Joe following up on the accusations at the time and what was he being told etc….

But yes, that is a very fair question to ask and one that has bothered me. But I don’t think we assume the worst and fire him. Investigate. And remember Joe didn’t have the GJR to read in 2002. The kids are in no additional danger whether Paterno is still there or not. Remember who the alleged monster here really is.

It sucks that I assumed something about you doesn’t it. Now what if I refused to acknowledge what you said and draw conclusions based on my own assumptions that have no evidence to support them. Oh, and then I go tell anyone who will listen why you are scum and pass off my assumptions as facts to back it up.

No I was not driving. I am not nearly coordinated enough to do that.

And I agree about needing a life. This thing has consumed me to the point I have trouble sleeping.

by Btd121 on Dec 1, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Last, last one

Glad we could come together. Maybe there is hope for peace in the Middle East. However, you made one comment I have a problem with,

“did he think Sandusky was a rapist scumbag or did he think he was just doing some harmless yet stupid shit”

what is “harmless yet stupid shit” between a grown man and a 10 year naked in the shower? Why would McQueary be “shaken” or “upset” as Joe stated if it was “harmless yet stupid shit”. Would you allow your 10 year old in the shower with a grown man other than yourself? Given the reasonable, prudent person you seem to be, I doubt it. At its core it does not pass the long standing legal doctrine of the “smell test”.

by lhspsu on Dec 1, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm going to pretend you actually meant the reasonable prudent person comment.

My word choice may not have been the best. That said, I think it entirely possible that for whatever reason he did not get the impression that what Sandusky was doing was predatory or criminal, just dumb for putting himself in such a situation. There are a ton of things in life that while not criminal or “wrong” you should still avoid. It certainly appears he got the wrong impression, but I don’t think we should crush him for it because he still reported what he was told. (insert huge debate here) I think he has already stated he has guilt for not recognizing the severity of the situation.

As for showering with kids, as a former “athlete” (I use this loosely), it was somewhat common at least where I grew up. I always thought it to be weird and I was never comfortable with it and to this day I don’t do it. But I remember playing sports growing up and there being grown men and kids in showers at the same time. It was really the only option if everyone wanted a shower. I think it is old school and schools etc. are likely getting away from it, but I wouldn’t stop and call the cops the second I saw an adult and a kid in the same shower. I’ve seen it too often and there never appeared to be foul play. Do I wish there would be rules against it? Probably, yes. I doubt someone of Paterno’s age and athletic background would see a problem with it however. (at least before this whole mess) I’m pretty sure I could go to my local Y and at the very least see naked men and probably adolescents in the men’s locker room if that was what I wanted. Our country is set up to divide the sexes, not prevent the same sex from seeing each other naked.

Ok, that is about as detailed as I care to get. Thanks for the mostly civil dialogue. I also agree with NJ Lion below.

by Btd121 on Dec 1, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

The Y

“I’m pretty sure I could go to my local Y and at the very least see naked men and probably adolescents in the men’s locker room”

I just came home from the Y and I saw exactly this. I felt torn, like should I not look and avoid any funny business, or should I take a 2nd look to make sure nothing wrong is going on. This whole situation has impacted my life in more ways then I could have ever guessed.

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Dec 1, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

With you on this one, NJ
This whole situation has impacted my life in more ways then I could have ever guessed.

Last week wifey plopped one of our boys into the shower with me. It was his first shower ever and I was so focused on that and watching him take in the water coming down on top of him that I didn’t think about Jerry Sandusky once. That was the first bath-time since this all broke that this was the case.

by jtothep on Dec 2, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

We do have a general gist of what MM told Paterno

as per the GJ statement, Paterno told Curley and Schultz it was “inappropriate” and “something of a sexual nature”. That to me sounds like something inbetween rape and “Horsing around”. I think that is a pretty safe assumption to make. It also states that Paterno stopped McQueary before he got too far into the story. So there’s some leeway into what specifically he knew, but we have a general idea about how much or how little was said.

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN

by skarocksoi on Dec 2, 2011 8:15 AM EST up reply actions  

yes-ish

except that any naked horsing around could be construed as inappropriate and something of a sexual nature. Let’s be clear here, naked horsing around with a kid in a shower is still very pervy, creepy behavior, but it also seems to be a somewhat gray area when it comes to how to define it legally and in terms of seriousness. I certainly can see a difference between say someone who just has tickle fights with kids, to someone who wrestles inappropriately with kids, to someone who physically molests kids, to someone who downright rapes a kid. It is a whole spectrum of activity, and shouldn’t all be dealt with the same way.

by The JuggerNitt on Dec 2, 2011 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

My concern about bashing Joe for not getting JS permanently kicked out of PSU facilities

is that JS still would have done these awful deeds – just somewhere else. I’m not criticizing you specifically, lhs, I just think many people I’ve heard/read seem to think this tragedy continued b/c Joe (or PSU personnel) did not keep him away from PSU property. What I DO think it did, though, is make PSU look even worse, b/c so many of these alleged atrocities did occur at PSU facilities.

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

by NJ lion on Dec 1, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This is what I wonder about

How hard would it have been to explain that under the current circumstances that the BoT thought it was in the best interest of the univ to have Joe go on admin leave. That they feel the media storm around Joe’s testimony would be a distraction to the football team student athletes and coaches and that it would make it difficult on the univ students and faculty.

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Dec 1, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree

Would have been the easiest answer, and the most morally correct. Page still could have been turned, and the distraction set to the side until the facts were gathered.

I have no idea why BOT felt that firing Joe was the best option.

by dontcallmescooter on Dec 1, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Because he was

visibly and publically insubordinate to them. He dared them to fire him by announcing that he had decided to serve out the rest of the season. What else could they do at that point?

by M1EK on Dec 1, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure that Joe saying that he would retire at the end of the season and that the BOT had many other things to be concerned with should be considered insubordination.

by dontcallmescooter on Dec 1, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

read it again

“please do not spend a single moment more on my status” = “I am telling you what you will do regarding me: you will accept my statement and move on to Spanier”.

by M1EK on Dec 1, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

That is how you interpret it

Not everyone else interprets it the same way. And you can’t know that that’s how Joe meant it. I personally think he wasn’t “telling” them what to do—he was asking them to focus their attention on where it should be focused, and not on him. That’s not invalid.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Dec 1, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

To me, the whole statement was

for the BoT to focus on dealing with the whole scandel and not on him, but he also tried to dictate how he was going out. Basically setting up a “You can focus on dealing with this mess and let me move on and get out of the way, or you can turn all the focus on me.”

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN

by skarocksoi on Dec 1, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with you

I think just about everyone “read” it as “don’t waste any more of your already scarce braincells on me suckas.” But if you think about it, given the “speaker” it is probably more of “let’s move on; I made the tough decision so you didn’t have to.”

The thing that gets me is the statement (reportedly uttered by a BOT member as they were leaving the meeting) “at least we did the right thing.” I think everyone involved in this mess is/was so far beyond what might be “right” that to suggest they had some/any integrity just makes my blood boil.

by PSUgirl on Dec 1, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, we could have a vote.

Most of the people who have since stayed out of this fray said they knew Joe had to be fired as soon as he said that. I’m the only one stubborn and/or dumb enough to keep arguing.

by M1EK on Dec 2, 2011 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

but is he the master of his domain?

"I've seen over 200 episodes of Law & Order and it's paying off big time!"

by letsgopsu on Dec 2, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Considering his arguing style, I'd have to guess 'yes'.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Dec 2, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Take his advice

which would have been a hell of a lot more prudent than what they did do.

by FB6244 on Dec 1, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn't he sort of on administrative leave?

They “relieved him of his duties,” but it is my understanding he is still an employee. I might be wrong on this, but I think Joe is still getting paid until the end of his contract.

by speedotito on Dec 1, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

If that was the case, then the BoT should have called it that.

They said Curley was on admin leave, didn’t say it about Joe. Just because he is getting the rest of his contract doesn’t mean he wasn’t fired. Just means they had no reason to break the contract but still fired him from the job.

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Dec 1, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder this, too.

I haven’t seen a satisfactory explanation of Joe’s role with the university (if he still has one). Curley went on administrative leave, Spanier went on sabbatical but is still a tenured professor. Joe is also a tenured professor. He shouldn’t be able to be summarily fired. But I also don’t know the specific provisions of his contract.

Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!

by Paige2PSU on Dec 1, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I believe he isn't coach but...

He’s still a tenured professor. That’s also why he has the ability to use campus facilities.

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Dec 1, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

If I'm wrong though, I'm wrong.

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Dec 1, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you're right.

I just haven’t heard any explanations of Joe’s status and all of the newspapers seem to say he was fired.

Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!

by Paige2PSU on Dec 1, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know the answer

My impression when I watched the press conference was that the BoT guy was picking his words carefully, and I think that led me to believe that they were essentially putting him on administrative leave, although the way they did it was, for all intents and purposes, equivalent to a firing.

by speedotito on Dec 1, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

they said he was "no longer the coach"

it seemed to be the most hurtful way to say it

Today is the day I died inside 11/9/11

by letsgopsu on Dec 1, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I just heard from a friend of mine he’s still Tenured Professor, he’d have to be criminally tried to remove that, he’s just no longer coach

Publicity is like poison; it doesn't hurt unless you swallow it.
Joe Paterno

by Modanya on Dec 1, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

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