Should Joe Paterno have done more to protect children?
If what the Attorney General says is proven to be true, then Jerry Sandusky, Tim Curley, and Gary Schultz have failed Penn State University, every student-athlete, and every fan of the program in the most egregious way possible, and infinitely more grievously, contributed to the violation of eight young men by either commission or omission.
Innocent or guilty, Penn State's reputation is permanently changed from this day forward. Penn State's athletic slogan "Success With Honor" is irreparably defiled with the alleged defilement of eight young children by an icon of the university and the charges of cover-up by the school's athletic administration.
But an important question still remains unanswered and will be debated ad nauseaum: Despite the lack of a charge against him, did Joe Paterno, the winningest head coach in Division I history, do everything he should have done to protect children? Or should he also be implicated in the alleged cover-up?
My answer is yes to the first question and no to the second. I am not a lawyer, but three years ago I wrote the majority of our church's Child Protection Policy, and in doing so became very familiar with the requirements for mandatory reporting of child abuse in Pennsylvania. If Paterno's testimony is true, (and the Grand Jury found his testimony credible), he did exactly what was both legally and morally required in the situations in which he found himself.
In the spring of 2002, a graduate assistant football coach allegedly found former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky in the showers of the Lasch Building engaging in sexual activity with a minor. He had a decision to make. He could have kept what he saw to himself, which would have been both illegal and immoral. He did the right thing and went to his immediate superior, Head Coach Joe Paterno.
The laws in Pennsylvania regarding mandatory reporting of suspected child abuse can be found in 23 Pa. C.S. 6111-6119. Section 6111 has to do with the responsibility of mandated reporters to report suspected child abuse. Subsection c is quite important, as it has to do with the responsibilities of staff members of institutions. It reads thus:
(c) Staff members of institutions, etc.--Whenever a person
is required to report under subsection (b) in the capacity as a
member of the staff of a medical or other public or private
institution, school, facility or agency, that person shall
immediately notify the person in charge of the institution,
school, facility or agency or the designated agent of the person
in charge. Upon notification, the person in charge or the
designated agent, if any, shall assume the responsibility and
have the legal obligation to report or cause a report to be made
in accordance with section 6313. This chapter does not require
more than one report from any such institution, school, facility
or agency.
When I explain our child protection policy to our Sunday School teachers and others who have contact with minors, I stress that they are not to contact law enforcement themselves with their observations or suspicions. Rather, they are to contact the person in charge of the institution, the pastor (or in his absence, the vice-president of the Congregation Council), and inform them of their suspicions and observations. The pastor or the vice-president is then to make a report of suspected child abuse according to the guidelines of section 6313.
This is exactly the procedure that the graduate assistant, and then Joe Paterno, followed, in an infinitely larger institution. The graduate assistant reported to his immediate superior, Coach Paterno. Coach Paterno then reported the suspicions and observations to his immediate superior, Tim Curley, the athletic director. The graduate assistant was interviewed by Curley and Gary Schultz. What should then have happened?
Whether Curley and/or Schultz should have reported to the President of the University, or whether in his position as athletic director, he was the "designated agent" of President Spanier and authorized to make a report on his behalf, he did neither of these things. Instead, according to the charges, the matter stopped there. Law enforcement was not informed, as should have been automatic under section 6313. This is "failure to report" and is covered under section 6319:
§ 6319. Penalties for failure to report or to refer.
A person or official required by this chapter to report a
case of suspected child abuse or to make a referral to the
appropriate authorities who willfully fails to do so commits a
misdemeanor of the third degree for the first violation and a
misdemeanor of the second degree for a second or subsequent
violation.
If the Attorney General's charges are accurate, and Tim Curley and Gary Schultz willfully failed to report a case of suspected violation of child abuse, they are guilty of a crime.
But this is exactly what the graduate assistant and head coach Joe Paterno did NOT do. When observing suspected child abuse (in the graduate assistant's case), and receiving a report of such (Coach Paterno), they reported it to their immediate superiors, who then had the responsibility on behalf of the institution to inform the authorities of their suspicions. They followed the law.
The question will be asked, however: If Coach Paterno discovered that there had been no follow-up (still an open question), should he have gone to the authorities himself? Did he protect himself by following the letter of the law and ignore its intention for the sake of his own reputation, or that of a friend's, or of Penn State's ? I say no, for the following reason:
When child abuse is suspected, it is a matter for law enforcement to determine the facts of the case. Both the graduate assistant and Coach Paterno had neither legal nor moral authority to judge for themselves whether child abuse had actually taken place. If every person that suspected child abuse in an institutional setting were permitted to take the law into their own hands by contacting authorities, it would become incredibly easy for anyone with a vendetta against a colleague, a superior, or an underling to ruin a career and a reputation by making unfounded reports with no check. That is why they are to report to the heads of their institutions, whose responsibility it is to make the report, based on whether or not there is 'reasonable suspicion' that abuse has occurred.
Curley and Schultz had this responsibility. In the view of the grand jury, the graduate assistant's testimony was "very credible." Curley and Schultz's testimony as to why they did not report was not credible. Therefore, the charges of perjury and failure to report.
If the grand jury findings are accurate, the graduate assistant who discovered Coach Sandusky in the showers with a young man and Coach Paterno, who reported this man's suspicions to Athletic Director Spanier, are blameless in this matter. They did what the law required, and they did what was moral, because they had no legal or moral authority to judge whether Jerry Sandusky was guilty of a crime. They reported suspected child abuse, which was not passed on.
If the charges against Coach Sandusky, Athletic Director Curley, and Vice President Schultz are true, it would be a tragedy. It would be tragic that Coach Joe Paterno, who has stood for the highest ideals of integrity in college athletics for over sixty years, will be associated in the last years of his brilliant career with this sordid scandal. It would be infinitely more tragic that eight innocent children would bear for their entire lifetimes the scars inflicted by the sins of omission and commission of these three men.
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Thank You
when I clicked on the title, I thought it was going to be a pure straight slam piece about Joe. I appreciate the information put in such a way as to be understandable even to me. What you’re saying makes sense…
but law doesnt always make sense…. what do the lawyers in here say?
All of our comments are irrelevant - LetsGoPSU
I'm just a law clerk for now...
But I said essentially the same earlier – Joe reported to his superiors, and had NO INFO ON HIS OWN (all hearsay). This is entirely on Curley and Schultz.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
by psume06 on Nov 5, 2011 10:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Legally I think Joe did what he was supposed to do (from my reading of the document
and my non-legal understanding of the process…I’m not in the legal system, but I did play a lawyer on TV and I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night).
Morally, ethically, I wish Joe had done more because of all of them he should not have been concerned about retaining his job and covering ass. He should have been more concerned about doing the right thing.
Everyone points to Tressel and his books talking about how to be a moral leader and always doing the right thing. His transgression was not telling about some kids getting tats. Joe has always professed Success with Honor and I believe that means he should have PRESSED to have the situation investigated by proper authorities after time passed and it was apparent nothing was being done. Others will be supportive of Joe and say he did what he was supposed to do and that’s enough. IMO he should have done more. Small boys were being VIOLATED. Far more egregious than some tats.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
except if this post is correct...
and I dont know that it is….
Legally he couldnt do any more… he was bound not to…
Look.. I dont condone any of this… I have a 10 year old daughter and if I found someone had…
Look.. I dont condone any of this… I have a 10 year old daughter and if I found someone had…well theyd be dead… I cant confirm that it would be my fault.. but yes… theyd be dead…
Look.. I dont condone any of this… I have a 10 year old daughter and if I found someone had…well theyd be dead… I cant confirm that it would be my fault.. but yes… theyd be dead…Fire em all.. let Joe retire… lets get through this… but dont go dragging someone through the mud for doing what they were supposed to do…
All of our comments are irrelevant - LetsGoPSU
You weren't doing...
the I Believe Cheer with your comment?
Ultimately we cannot say what Joe did or did not do after he reported it.
It’s entirely within the realm of possibility that Joe followed up repeatedly with Curley and Schultz and they fed him the “we’re looking into it” or “there is an investigation underway” line just to keep him satisfied.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 5, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
or Joe had his own lawyers advising him
which someone just suggested to me (a non PSU person)
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
Anything is possible
A huge amount of this story as it pertains to the program is so far unreported. Including how Joe dealt with it after he reported it.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Everyone keeps saying he should have done more.
Perhaps this is true.
What is also true is that no one has offered more than a vague idea of what he could have done – a vague idea that does not take into account the realities of the law and the case.
Tom Bradley for offensive coordinator.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 5, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I am on the JoePa side here
but it wouldve been against the law for him to go DIRECTLY to the police, even though they prob. could not have done much from just him, but they wouldve been in contact with red after.
http://twitter.com/tmaluchnik
What law makes it illegal fo Joe to go directly to the authorities?
Not being a jerk, but I simply am unfamiliar with this law. I know the law that allows him to report up, and then places the burden on Curley to report out, but not on the one that prohibits Joe from doing so.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
I think that...
the word ‘shall’ in subsection c is very important. As in…
Whenever a person is required to report under subsection (b) in the capacity as a
member of the staff of a medical or other public or private
institution, school, facility or agency, that person shall
immediately notify the person in charge of the institution,
school, facility or agency or the designated agent of the person
in charge. Upon notification, the person in charge or the
designated agent, if any, shall assume the responsibility and
have the legal obligation to report or cause a report to be made
in accordance with section 6313.
It doesn’t say ‘may,’ it says ‘shall.’ I read this to say, this is what MUST happen in a case where a person must report in his/her capacity as a staff member of a public institution.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
The law states "shall", not "only shall" or "shall only".
Basically, then, Joe MUST tell Curley.
But he MAY tell others.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
Exactly.
Joe fulfilled his legal obligation. But it seems that’s it.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 6, 2011 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Joe was not a witness.
If he reports, he’s liable for defamation plus whatever might come under the law cited above
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
by psume06 on Nov 5, 2011 10:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
People keep writing this. It's not true.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 6, 2011 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
u keep writing that he only fulfilled his legal obligation
which is also not true….it is TBD
let's go state
Someone, somehow
has to contact the authorities. What better person to contact them than the person who witnessed it? I’m not saying this to criticize the grad assistant, but if an incident has to go through layers of people to get reported, how effective is the reporting system?
Maybe this isn’t the same thing, but let’s say I witnessed someone being shot at work. I’d go straight to the local police with that.
Joe Paterno Apologist
The person who was supposed to contact the authorities didn't, from all reports
there is no “better” or “worse” person to contact them. There is the person who is legally bound to, and the person who is by law supposed to report it to their higher up, not to the authorities.
I think the right people are being charged.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Nov 5, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
To you and to RW -
All I can say is as far as I know the grad. assistant and Coach Paterno followed the correct legal procedures. Legally, they would have been out-of-bounds to contact the police themselves, as members of an institution. We do not know what Paterno said to Curley, and we probably never will.
It’s very easy for us to say we would have gone to Sandusky’s house and physically removed his genitalia, but if any of us were to do so, it would be both illegal and immoral.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree that it appears they did what was legally required.
I also don’t think Joe should be fired or implicated legally from my understanding of the situation. I do think he could have/should have done more to press for action – real action – to be taken once time passed and he saw nothing was being done. For that I believe it’s time for him to retire and walk away since I really think that’s what’s best for the institution and the team moving forward.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
I think as well -
we are all shocked, disgusted, and sickened by this information, and are numb as we reconsider everything we thought we believed and were proud of about Penn State football in the Paterno era. Hopefully with distance and time we all can begin to process on a rational level.
Should Paterno have badgered Curley to take action?
Or followed up more agresively? Perhaps met with him and said, “Hey, what’s going on with the Sandusky situation?”
Paterno was not a first year coach. He is the former AD himself. Even if he shouldn’t have gone to the police, couldn’t he have had more sway on Curley to take action? After all, it was about in this timeframe that Spanier and Curley went to Paterno’s house and asked him to step down? If he could prevent himself from being fired, couldn’t he have convinced his Curley to take action? (Unless Curley lied to Paterno, also)…
by dontcallmescooter on Nov 5, 2011 5:11 PM EDT reply actions
Maybe he did.
It’s possible that Paterno asked Curley or Shultz every week what was going on. It’s possible that every week they told him there was an ongoing investigation just to shut him up.
I don’t think we can come out against Joe’s handling of this without knowing the story after he reported, and as far as I know, no one has reported that he hadn’t followed up aggressively.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Agree
Withholding judgement until more facts are known. This just makes me sick.
by dontcallmescooter on Nov 5, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps he did.
Perhaps he pushed Curley and Curley told him that after police investigated, no proof was found. Or that Big Red mis-saw something. Or whatever the hell. I have no idea.
A charge or indictment contains enough facts to support the crime elements and nothing more.
It’s a true case of “to be continued”.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
Lets remember too that the date of the incident indicates that Sandusky was no longer
an employee of PSU let alone under Joe’s direction. he left the program in ’99 I believe, so was a guest user of the facilities based on his retirement package. Meaning that I doubt Joe had much contact with him during that time period. He probably was not privy to much info that was only marginally related to the football program then.
And make no mistake...
…if Coach Paterno were guilty of a crime, then I would hope that he would do time.
But this does not appear to be the case. He’s not a saint. But he’s been made out to be so many times that people will cast stones at him because of the appearance of impropriety.
If additional evidence comes out that says Coach Paterno covered this up, I will not defend him. In the absence of such evidence, I think it’s only fair to assess the evidence that has been presented.
agree with most of this, but
there is a lot of talk about ‘suspected’ child abuse in this post. it seems that the child abuse was witnessed, not suspected by the grad assistant. not sure how that changes things, and i am far from a lawyer.
to expand on that thought
it is illegal to leave the scene of a fender-bender if you are a witness. this is much more serious.
i believe the proper action to be taken would be to intervene IMMEDIATELY. remove the child from the situation, and take him to the hospital.
i really dont see an argument against this.
That's what should have happened.
But that is on the GA. We cannot fathom what went through his mind when he witnessed what he said he did. If it was McQueary it’s quite possible Sandusky was a mentor, father figure, or friend of his and sadly, it does complicate things beyond the black and white we see from our detached positions.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
The crime itself is black and white; it’s obviously a terrible crime. How the GA responded – and, for that matter, Paterno – is absolutely not black and white.
Tom Bradley for offensive coordinator.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 5, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
When involving human reactions, it is never black and white
by Ben16 on Nov 5, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I truly hope you never have to see how you would really react
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
by letsgopsu on Nov 5, 2011 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
It's not illegal to leave the scene of an accident if you are a witness.
If you are a participant witness, yes, but not if you’re a third-party witness.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
I like to think I would have physically interceded
but if I were the GA I think I would have panicked and ran
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
It's so easy for us to arm-chair QB this.
What would I have done? I have not a damned clue. Be shocked? Absolutely. Want to cry at what I witnessed? Eventually. Physically intercede? I like to think yes, but I also wonder where panic of the moment sets in.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
he didn't even have to intervene physically though
just saying something, literally doing ANYTHING may have been enough to stop the act.
The question is...
what does the GA do next? It’s his word against Sandusky’s. What if he’s mistaken in what he can’t believe he saw? What if the kid won’t talk?
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
he may have done this
yelled or something, then left
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
According to the GJ report...
the GA said that both Sandusky and the boy saw him.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I have anger issues
So I would probably have attacked Sandusky, wound up in jail, and blemished my reputation to the point that I might not be a believable witness against him.
Leaving was probably the best option of a slew of terrible options.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
by psume06 on Nov 5, 2011 10:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think that today I'll take your issues
over Sandusky’s issues.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
apologize for my ignorance
how about for this situation specifically? i honestly don’t know (again, less than zero legal training for me)
PA does not have a good samaritan law.
I suppose there is a question whether GA was negligent in not preventing a harm which he presumably was capable of preventing, even if he was not the cause. I would be floored to learn there is any standard to hold a third-party liable for the intentional battery of another individual.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
That would be totally insane and so broad as to be virtually unenforceable, no?
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
You're only liable...
if you don’t report it to the authorities, which the GA did, which Coach Paterno did, but which Curley and the other guy apparently didn’t.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
right
but this is kind of secondary to my point.
i don’t want to beat this to death, so i’m gonna leave it at this: something could have and should have been done at the time. this may or may not have resulted in jail time for sandusky, depending on how things panned out. but the kid’s safety has to come before your emotional conflictions about your friend and mentor committing these awful crimes.
i’m going to watch omg game of the millenium now. im normally a lurker, but it seems i may need to take a break from bsd until this cools off. i know someone who was abused as a child, and so my reactions may be less level-headed than others. it is what it is: a shitty situation with plenty of ‘what-ifs’ and blame that could be spread around to many.
epoch
It’s the game of the epoch.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I hear you...
and I’m sorry if I’m treating this too abstractly. As I say…if information surfaces that Coach Paterno had something to do with the cover-up, let him be indicted and go to jail if guilty. The most important thing here is that eight men’s lives will never be the same.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Right
If Joe Paterno did something wrong, he deserves to be prosecuted just like anyone else. I just refuse to hold him accountable for others actions.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Nov 5, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Harm already occurred – if I was his lawyer and there was a good Samaritan law, I would argue intervention woul achieve nothing.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
by psume06 on Nov 5, 2011 10:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This particular post is about Joe.
And in Joe’s case this is a suspected child abuse case. He himself did not witness anything, rather another party told him.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I don't know the extent
of what Paterno did, but I think it had better have been a lot. Under the circumstances, I don’t think reporting this up the chain of command to satisfy legal requirements is sufficient. Paterno is not an employee reporting something to his boss. He’s the most recognizable and powerful person at PSU. I’m sure (I hope) we’ll learn he did much more – like follow up on why no investigation had ensued. He has purposely set the bar very high on the issue of moral standards. Higher than the minimum required. There may be reasons for not going to authorities, no first hand knowledge, etc; but setting a high standard means doing more than the minimum required, in my opinion.
I’m not a lawyer, but come on: " If every person that suspected child abuse in an institutional setting were permitted to take the law into their own hands by contacting authorities,…"
Reporting child abuse to the police is not the bad side of taking matters into your own hands. Those policies seem like the kind of thing that is intended to protect an institution, not an individual.
Caution.
Under the circumstances, I don’t think reporting this up the chain of command to satisfy legal requirements is sufficient.
Why? Again, I understand the desire to read about Paterno “doing more”, but – while I am no lawyer – this law strikes me as a well-crafted one which attempts to balance the concept of innocent until proven guilty with the need to prevent injustice.
Paterno is not an employee reporting something to his boss. He’s the most recognizable and powerful person at PSU.
Your second sentence does not render the first sentence true. Paterno is an employee reporting something to his boss. That’s the way the officers of the law are treating him because that’s what he is.
He may be the most recognizable and powerful person at PSU, but he’s also subject to the law just like any other Pennsylvanian.
As for your last two paragraphs, frankly, I simply don’t find them to be a convincing rebuttal to the points made in the original post.
The law exists to ensure measured responses to all crimes.
I think the framing of “Paterno doing the legal minimum” is inaccurate; he followed the letter of the law exactly as required. And, so far, no one has presented a case that adequately proves any of the reactive assumptions that are bound to surface in the aftermath of news of today’s nature.
Tom Bradley for offensive coordinator.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 5, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you think
Paterno is an employee at PSU, same as the vice chair of the sociology dept., then, yeah, you’re not going to agree with me.
He is associated with the terms “Success with Honor” and “Grand Experiment”. We’ve all taken pride in the fact that he is the coach of our university. I’m not going to take pride in the fact that someone did the minimum required by law. You can say I can’t expect any more from any one person, and that would be fine. I just don’t agree.
Yeah but he didn't just do the minumum required by law.
He did the maximum allowed by it.
Anything else he would have done, given his position, would have been illegal and potentially damaging to a case against Sandusky. The state law doesn’t give a shit if JoePa was his boss for however many years, or how many wins he has, or if he’s the face of Penn State.
Paterno was not the person responsible for reporting this to the police. He reported it to the person that was. They did nothing. That is all he is allowed to do, not just required.
How much worse would it be, if he reported it the state police, and Sandusky got off because JoePa didn’t follow proper procedure?
"This is being a Penn State fan. We’ll prove it, or we won’t. It’s not about proving it to them, it’s about proving to ourselves."
by mvrck on Nov 5, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
Thank you.
Your post is better than anything I’ve yet said.
Tom Bradley for offensive coordinator.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 5, 2011 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
The principal irony here and in this post
is that someone asserting higher law (Christianity) is using statutory and bureaucratic hairsplitting to justify not blowing the whistle and getting an investigation launched and effective. All Paterno had to do was ask the police chief if he was aware of what he had reported to his AD. And if the police chief stonewalled, there’s this guy called the D.A., and beyond him/her, the Attorney General. It’s neither illegal nor immoral to ask a police chief what’s up with an investigation that is presumably underway. Not doing so, de facto, is to participate in a cover-up.
There are all sorts of morally reprehensible situations one encounters in life, and deferring to bureaucratic procedure is a rather strange road to moral responsibility.
Of course I have no idea what Paterno did, or, for that matter, the two guys charged. I’m just remarking on the idea that when something heinous occurs, the best thing to do is tell the boss and back off.
We play tackle football.
So...
If person (a) apparently abides by the law of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania in reporting suspected child abuse, and if
Persons (b1) and (b2) allegedly break the laws of the Commonwealth concerning reporting such abuse, then:
Person (a) is clearly guilty of wrongdoing.
It used to be said of the United States that we had a government of laws and not of men. In our system, it is law enforcement officers who investigate crimes. There are proper things to do when we, as citizens, suspect people of a crime. In an institutional setting, the law in Pennsylvania is that the head of the institution is ultimately responsible for everything that happens there, and for contacting the authorities if there is any suspected abuse. Therefore any employees, suspecting any crimes, should report to that person. Somewhere, the ball got dropped, and apparently it was not by Coach Paterno.
If I see what I believe to be a drug deal occurring on the street corner, the proper response is to contact the authorities. I would not be justified in personal intervention. In an institutional setting, the proper response is to report to the superiors. That is what Coach Paterno did. Anything else is not only beyond the scope of his responsibilities but beyond the scope of what he may do legally or morally. It would have been unjustified.
He suspected. He reported. He was let down by men he trusted. Unless there is more to this story, that’s where I am.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I take it...
that by your sarcastic post you’re admitting that you have lost the argument.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't argue with people
who assert devotion to procedure over morality. To each his own, and I’m sure everyone was following orders. For more information, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship.
We play tackle football.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/paterno_praised_for_acting_app.html
I don’t know what else there is to say. He’s basically going to be the star witness that sells out three long time associates in this matter. And the prosecution issues a statement that he did everything correctly in 02.
"This is being a Penn State fan. We’ll prove it, or we won’t. It’s not about proving it to them, it’s about proving to ourselves."
Yeah, I'm not making any comment about Paterno, mostly because we never know what did or did not occur in these situations.
My comments reflect an opposing view of moral agency, responsibility and obligation to that presented by Screenpass.
We play tackle football.
Anything that gets someone to read Bonhoeffer...
is a good thing. I’ve read Bonhoeffer – plenty of him. I still think I’m right. I think by prejudging Paterno on an assumed act of omission that you are the one misinterpreting Bonhoeffer, not I.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
You have a severe reading comprehension problem
if you think I’m “prejudging Paterno.” Justifying Paterno is your gig.
We play tackle football.
And I quote:
“All Paterno had to do was ask the police chief if he was aware of what he had reported to his AD. And if the police chief stonewalled, there’s this guy called the D.A., and beyond him/her, the Attorney General. It’s neither illegal nor immoral to ask a police chief what’s up with an investigation that is presumably underway. Not doing so, de facto, is to participate in a cover-up.”
I believe I read both Bonhoeffer and you quite well.
If information surfaces that indicates Paterno participated in a cover-up, I will retract my statements that he acted legally and morally.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Rarely does one see someone work so hard
to demonstrate his own ignorance, and particularly in a situation in which no one is disputing the core problem, which is the serial rape of prepubescent boys by an institutional employee. (Well, the PSU president, I guess, is disputing that there was any sexual abuse, because the 60 year-old coach was just “horsing around” when found in flagrante delicto in the university showers after hours).
“Of course I have no idea what Paterno did, or, for that matter, the two guys charged. I’m just remarking on the idea that when something heinous occurs, the best thing to do is tell the boss and back off.”
Just to help you out … I have no idea what Paterno did, or for that matter, the two guys charged. I’m just remarking on the idea that when something heinous occurs, the best thing to do is tell the boss and back off.
No one gets through life without witnessing criminal or highly unethical behavior. If you live in a world where reporting such to a church elder or bureaucratic superior absolves you of a responsibility to protect the victims, or simply to speak publicly about the dishonesty or crime, fine, good luck, hasta la vista.
I’ve never read an honor code that says, “I will never lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate any one who does — because there is a designated person in HR to whom I may offload moral responsibility.”
Institutional stewards have conflicts of interest in regard embarrassing or destructive situations within their institutions. That’s why institutions are forever writing rules that make exposing wrongdoing (such as your WR coach did) so incredibly dangerous for the whistleblower.
This doesn’t make PSU to be worse than any other institution of its scale. This is about humanity in all its forms, many dark, and the deceit that lures the powerful once they have climbed the bureaucratic pyramid.
We play tackle football.
Actually, one thing about Christianity that few realize
Is that it calls you to follow the laws of the land you live in… Higher calling indeed.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
by psume06 on Nov 5, 2011 11:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The ignorance here, in search of a defense for the indefensible, is very dark.
You just called Bonhoeffer a bad Christian because he failed to obey the “laws of the land” in which he lived. Thomas a Becket, Luther, MLK, Jr.: criminals, all. It’s extremely appalling that someone would appeal to scripture to justify silence in the face of crimes against children. But, hey, it’s a football blog, no biggie.
We play tackle football.
For the record
this is factually incorrect. It would not be illegal for Paterno to call the police. That is a ludicrous idea.
Oh, come on. Don't leave your uncle T-bag hangin'.
Once again.
How do you know he only did the minimum? We know he performed his legal obligation by reporting it to his superiors per the law who were supposed to report it to police. They didn’t and that’s on them. But how do you know that he didn’t follow up? To say he did only the minimum is making a large assumption on information no one knows yet.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I said very specifically
that we don’t know he only did the minimum, and that we don’t know what he did. I also said there are reasons he might not have gone to the police. I’m saying that he should have done something more than just report it to a “superior”. He very well may have. My example was to follow up on the issue.
He did not do the “maximum allowed by law”. Nobody is going avoid prosecution for a crime if someone doesn’t follow the university procedure for reporting something. I think we’re confusing university policy (derived to protect the institution from law suits), with the law. Do you think the state police is going to make someone reporting a crime talk to their boss first? Again, I’m not saying running to the police is the first, best or even a possible option. But I do not understand saying that reports of sexual abuse are not allowed to go outside of an institution or employer. That’s what the institution wants, it has nothing to do with the law, as far as I know.
I’m a PSU fan. I’m probably wrong about a lot of stuff. I’m sure everyone has good intentions here. I’m signing off, be sure to tell me how right or wrong I am, or whatever. Good night.
I think Big Red (or whomever the GA was)
Messed up and messed up bad. He was the one who should have broken it up and called police directly. But he didn’t. There are any number of reasons why he didn’t and some of them I can understand even if they aren’t in the best interest of the child involved, we can’t pretend to know exactly the acts he saw and we can’t know exactly his relationship with Sandusky or the child involved.
By going to Joe the GA put the man in a tough place. Joe could call it in to police, but at that point he’s reporting essentially a rumor because the information is not first hand, Joe witnessed nothing at all, he’s taking the word of someone who says he saw something and we don’t know the relationship between Joe and the GA if it wasn’t Big Red, it’s possible the GA wasn’t someone Joe trusted or thought had an agenda. I think Joe did exactly the right thing by going to his superiors to discuss it first. Once the GA dropped the ball when he witnessed it, it was all he really could do. The superiors just happened to be liars and terrible human beings with their own agenda.
Apologies for missing your point originally, I didn’t see you posted at the top of the chain.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 5, 2011 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In going to Joe...
the GA followed the laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. He was in a terrible position indeed, but what would he have done? Called 911 and restrained Sandusky until the cops arrived? It would have been his word against Sandusky’s. If the kid had been too scared to testify, or lied about what had happened, or if the GA had been mistaken in something that he couldn’t believe he had seen, the GA would have been done in for slandering a noble member of the community and a Penn State hero.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
This is where it breaks down to legal and moral.
Joe I feel legally and morally was in the right the whole way through this process. The GA I feel was in the right legally, he did report the crime. Morally though his ground is less stable, he witnessed something in the showers it wasn’t a glimpse, he stated that Sandusky and the boy both saw him, he knows what he saw and he didn’t stop the abuse of a child when he had the opportunity to nor did he call the authorities immediately after witnessing it in hopes that they may catch him in the act.
It’s not like your drug dealing example you posted above, that deal is a business transaction, there is no real victim there. In this case, there was and morally it was his obligation to stop it as quickly as possible. Legally all he had to do was report it. Like I’ve said, I can’t pretend to know exactly what he saw (we know he did see something though, enough to be sure of what he saw), we don’t know his relationship to Sandusky, Joe or the victim or the emotional response to what he saw. I can honestly say I might have done exactly what he did. That doesn’t mean though that it’s morally right.
Even if he had done what you state:
It would have been his word against Sandusky’s. If the kid had been too scared to testify, or lied about what had happened, or if the GA had been mistaken in something that he couldn’t believe he had seen, the GA would have been done in for slandering a noble member of the community and a Penn State hero.
How is that much different than the situation we’re at now? At least in the situation where the GA stops the act, the abuse of a child was ended, if only temporarily and with the same clusterf*** of consequences afterwards.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I just read the entire Grand Jury report...
and there were others who witnessed Sandusky with boys and that did not stop him. Older men who were scared to death and couldn’t believe what they had seen, who could not bring themselves to report the information because it was too unbelievable and too disgusting to contemplate. The heroes in this case appear to be Joseph Miller and Steven Turchetta, who reported what they witnessed happening to Victim 1 and suspected to authorities, as they should have done.
To read the document through is sickening.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Ultimately these other people who did nothing when witnessing it
Are in the moral wrong too I feel. And that is acknowledging that I too probably wouldn’t have been able to do stop it either but it’s what I should have done if it were me in that position and I think it’s what the GA or anyone else should have done when they witnessed it. It’s not unreasonable to say so.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
See, now you're framing it differently.
You didn’t say Paterno was “an employee” the “same” as someone else. You said he wasn’t an employee taking his concern to his boss. He was! He is! Joe Paterno is an employee of Penn State University.
Tom Bradley for offensive coordinator.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 5, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of this has to do with us seeing JoePa as a hero, which he is in many respects
The fact that he did what was legally and morally required may at first not seem sufficient given the context in which we see him.
by Mr. Rosewater on Nov 5, 2011 7:09 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
For those who are "not a lawyer, but..."
Quit spewing your interpretations of the law, of what an employee is or is not, etc. You’re probably wrong, and you’re definitely irritating.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Nov 5, 2011 8:28 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Is this a law the GA would have been aware of?
I honestly wasn’t aware of this law until this post.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
No matter whether he was aware or not...
He did the right thing. Presumably he could have gone straight to President Spanier, but he did share his suspicions with Curley and Schultz when they interviewed him.
I don’t know if they go over mandatory reporting with the staff at Penn State. They sure as hell will from now on.
by Dr Screenpass on Nov 5, 2011 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope the victims are able to recover from this abuse.
I am huge Paterno fan and I hope he did everything he could. He definitely seems to have taken sufficient action that should have lead to results, but I can’t tell if he could have done more. Since he’s a witness for the prosecution ( http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/paterno_praised_for_acting_app.html ), the prosecutors seem to think he acted appropriately at least.
As for Curley and Schultz, I cannot understand how someone could cover up this crime. It’s unfathomable to me.
For Sandusky, whatever destination awaits him in this world or the next, he deserves worse.
For some reason my brain keeps turning withness for the prosecution
Into witness protection… and how much I would pay to see a comedy based on Joe in said protection, hauled across the country under a false ID with a face EVERYONE knows. Comedy gold.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
they get him some plastic surgery and turn him into the image of Nick Saban
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
JoePA should have followed up with Curley to find out the resolution
So Joe had an employee, the grad assistant , report to him that a former employee, whom he knew for over for 30 years was molesting a child , I do not find it plausible that in his daily interactions with the AD JoePA did not say “hey Tim whatever happened with that Sanduskey thing , did the cops arrest him yet??”
"Raise the black flag and ride hard, boys! Our cause is just and our enemies many! "
by Corvus Baltimorius on Nov 5, 2011 10:34 PM EDT reply actions
How do we know he didn't?
Who says Curley didn’t say that the police took care of it, found nothing, etc.?
Jesus Christ, people, you’re treating the GJ charging as the only document in this matter. If you don’t have a god damned clue how the criminal process works, then shove each of your “why” questions down your throat until you do.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Nov 5, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually these are very relevent questions and while JS should follow due process I think it will be a huge mistake if PSU allows it’s reputation to be tied to the criminal process .
And arrogant blank check statements of “unconditional support” from the school prez are more reckless than “why” questions from concerned alumni
"Raise the black flag and ride hard, boys! Our cause is just and our enemies many! "
by Corvus Baltimorius on Nov 5, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely.
And I think we all here agree that Spanier needs to go (we all had reasons before, but now we all have a single instance of completely inept handling of a situation that touches the entire University system).
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
P.S.
I apologize for the snap.
I just am a bit frustrated with folks assuming the GJ charge is the only statement of fact. It’s merely a vehicle to show that each element of a criminal offense is met, and that there are grounds for the charges to go to trial. At trial is when the whole story will get out. The problem for everyone, of course, is that we want answers now, but no one who will testify or in any way implicate/concern the University will speak until trial. And even then, if there is a plea bargain, which I very greatly suspect there will be (unless the AG wants to run it up the flagpole for the sake of getting the story out, which would be a waste of funds by the AG), we’ll never know the facts.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
I imagine there will be privacy for the victims, as there should be
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
I always struggle with that...
I understand the why, but philosophically it bothers me.
Every insult does not require a response.
by Esteban d' Amur on Nov 6, 2011 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
The "whole story" will not get out.
Though I’m grateful for another hymn of praise to process. The reason they whole story will not get out is they do not know, nor will they ever know, a) how many other boys were raped; and b) what the lifelong burdens will be for the boys who are acknowledged by the GJ to have been raped.
We play tackle football.
No worries
You’re right there should be no rush to judgment on Curley, JoePA
I am in complete shock about this. To think that the Second Mile , which has done so much good work over the years, to be used as a vehicle to take advantage of kids by its founder JS is so very sad.
"Raise the black flag and ride hard, boys! Our cause is just and our enemies many! "
by Corvus Baltimorius on Nov 6, 2011 7:11 AM EST up reply actions
And we have no evidence to suggest that that didn't indeed happen.
There is nothing out there about what happened after he reported. No story about how he badgered Curley about it for weeks on end. No story about him never following up on it. No story about him reporting it, going out, killing a deer after and wearing it’s horns and a clown nose around calling himself Rudolph.
I think it’s likely he did follow up, but saying he did or didn’t is total here-say because there is no reports on the matter so far.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
The grad assistant was 28 at the time.
CHECK YO MATH!
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
by psume06 on Nov 6, 2011 7:02 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I haven't delved into the implications but I wish you guys the best.
Your program is one I really do admire.
As many people have already said, we don't have enough information
Joe was not the subject of the Grand Jury’s report. Why would this report provide details about Joe’s conduct beyond what was legally relevant? Maybe he did more; maybe he didn’t. We don’t have nearly enough information to start making moral judgments about Joe here, and given the complexities of these circumstances, I’m not sure we ever will.
What we do know is that Joe has been commended by the state prosecutor for his conduct in the matter thus far, and that he’s already agreed to testify.
The only thing about this whole story that hasn’t been completely awful is the fact that Joe has acted with integrity throughout.
ACCEPTS THE PAYPAL
Hello, everybody, coach get old, the new coach approaching, click in.
Welcome to http://www.pennlive.com
by newenglandnittanylion on Nov 5, 2011 10:52 PM EDT reply actions
so did McQuery it seems
I feel proud of him
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
Poor McQueary
That has to be up there with murder and torture as one of the worst things a person can witness first-hand. Add in the fact that it was Sandusky, a former coach and mentor to him, and the realization that what he just witnessed would destroy the reputation of his alma mater, and you’ve got an experience that undoubtedly scarred him deeply.
The fact that he turned to Joe, and that he and Joe have apparently since developed a close relationship, indicates to me that Joe handled that facet of this mess very well, at least.
ACCEPTS THE PAYPAL
Hello, everybody, coach get old, the new coach approaching, click in.
Welcome to http://www.pennlive.com
by newenglandnittanylion on Nov 6, 2011 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What I think many are forgetting...
…is that most organizations, including Penn State, require training for the sort of procedure in cases such as this. I would be surprised if nobody within the organization (or The Second Mile for that matter) were not at least familiar with the law and procedure.
These are the kinds of training many people in corporate organizations lambast and consider a waste of time. This is why they are very wrong.
As a Scouting volunteer, we are required to take this training annually. We are told the law as it pertains in our locality and also the policy of the organization, which in Scouting’s case is much stricter.
Scouting has a No Tolerance policy toward single adult to single youth contact behind closed doors. Volunteers are required to report any matter to Professional Scouters and then are required to not speak of the matter again once the initial report is made. The adult in question is then banned from Scouting – no questions asked, no appeal. Professional Scouters are not to investigate the matter but are required to formalize the report and bring in the appropriate authority. Regardless of intent of the contact (with some exceptions for extreme medical cases) the adult may not return to Scouting in any capacity.
Matters such as these are delicate. Hearsay, conjecture and whisper-down-the-lane are all hindrances to investigation and the truth. This is the primary reason why administration are the ones who bear the responsibility of following through on reporting to civil authorities. Part of that paycheck is taking on the responsibility of being the only person who must go through this process. In this instance, the Athletic Director is incompetent – regardless of the outcome of the case.
The travesty is two administrators at the University made a decision that is not their right to make: That is in taking the law into their own hands by not reporting the matter to investigative authorities. Furthermore, they took upon themselves the decision of rendering both a guilty/not guilty verdict and punishment for a crime.
by stonewall435 on Nov 6, 2011 9:15 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
Thanks for posting this.
I think the Boy Scouts have a good policy.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Nov 6, 2011 12:57 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
the BSA has a policy that helps to protect themselves.
it’s definitely not the best, but it will definitely help to mitigate liability and hearsay.
as a previous member of BSA (will probably get back in when my work life allows it), you are honestly told to report it and never speak a word of it again until directed to.
We have little tranquility but tons of tranquilizers.
by mikeissurreal on Nov 7, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
None of This Makes Sense To Me
Why would Tim Curley perjure himself with the ridiculous explanation that the GA reported ‘inappropriate behaviour". Nobody in this commonwealth believes that the next question out of his mouth should be ’what the hell are you talking about here?" What do you mean ’inappropriate behaviour’.
1) He cannot possibly believe that anyone would believe that bullshit story.
2) He obviously did not get legal advice worth a damn before going in to the Grand Jury.
so…….
3) Get Your Aluminum Foil Hats On people.
This makes no sense.
Elizabeth, with Vin Scully, only folks working longer than JoePA at same place!
by joefromboalsburg on Nov 6, 2011 4:42 PM EST reply actions
Good post, but I just can't let this slide by:
“Both the graduate assistant and Coach Paterno had neither legal nor moral authority to judge for themselves whether child abuse had actually taken place.”
I should certainly at least HOPE that after what McQueary WITNESSED he would definitely be able to judge for himself that child abuse had taken place!

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