Tim Curley, Gary Schultz Step Down
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 6:40 AM EST
in #PSUCharges
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PrintPrior to their arraignments Monday in Harrisburg on charges of perjury and failure to report abuse of a child, Penn State Director of Athletics Tim Curley and Interim Senior Vice President for Finance and Business Gary Schultz have been removed from their respective posts.
Curley asked to be placed on administrative leave, a move that was approved by Penn State's Board of Trustees at an emergency meeting last night at Univeristy Park. Senior Associate Athletic Director Mark Sherburne will serve in Curley's position while charges are pending against Curley.
Schultz is resigning to defend himself against the criminal charges, then going back into retirement (he had earlier retired from the same position, only to later return on an interim basis).
Bill Mahon, vice president for university relations (essentially Penn State's public relations apparatus), reported that the Board of Trustees did not consider asking Graham Spanier or Joe Paterno to resign.
Spanier issued a statement noting, "The protection of children is of paramount importance. The university will take a number of actions moving forward to increase the safety and security within our facilities and make everyone aware of the protocols in place for handling these issues."
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That's the statement he should have made initially...
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
by psume06 on Nov 7, 2011 6:44 AM EST reply actions 11 recs
Over the weekend...
I told the Wife that the only reason Spanier’s original statement made any sense at all is if Curley and Schultz were gone first thing Monday morning.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
or last thing Sunday night.
@devon2012. Follow me.
by Devon Edwards on Nov 7, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't be calling for Spanier's head if he had made this statement instead of the one he did
That one was disgusting and completely out of touch with how the alums were feeling.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Asked to be Placed on Leave
Much more likely told that. Emergency BOT meetings on a Sunday night are not convened to handle requests of any sort. Especially with a reguarly scheduled meeting set for late this week.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
It's not good enough
Administrative leave likely means that if he’s not found guilty, then he can get his job back or, more likely, a fat severance package. If you take Tim Curley at his word (and don’t take Mike McQueery and Joe Paterno at theirs), then at a minimum he failed to ask obvious questions that resulted in more kids being abused. That is a fireable offense in my mind, and if a jury disagree, I would be first in line to write a check in support of the University had they made that proper decision. This? It’s just cronyism and protecting someone they’ve known forever.
by kijana's acl on Nov 7, 2011 8:23 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I really just meant get them the hell away from Penn State
I didn’t think through the legal/contract wording.
And yet it seems wrong to even be happy about Curley resigning given the circumstances for which it came about.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Curley didn’t resign. He is on admin leave. With his tenure, etc. probably paid leave. If he is found not guilty, he may get his job, or similar job back or at least will ge a payout. If found guilty, well, then he’s history.
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
by PaJoe on Nov 7, 2011 7:06 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not Guilty
He will get a payout. IMO very unlikely he ever actually works for PSU again after this. Guilty-Obviously gone period with no payout.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
exactly
very, very unlikely he ever works for the University.
This is the way they attempt to save face and avoid potential lawsuits in the future.
Fire Dan Snyder
I do agree it is very unlikely that he works for the University even if found, not guilty. I doubt he would want to after this. However, if by “fat” chance, enough info comes out in his favor, he would want to be exonerated enough to at least feel he has a shot at another decent position. Truthfully, regardless of the outcome, even if new info says he did everything appropriately, his career is ruined.
I hope the AG has plenty of solid info that he indeed comitted perjury. If she doesn’t, shame on her and we should take steps to get her te hell out.
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
Given the Circumstances I am not happy about Curley "leaving"
Even though I never really liked him. He always came across as a total phony to me.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
by nits4ever on Nov 7, 2011 8:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It is a step in the right direction. Gonna be very interesting, but in a bad way, to see what plays out over the course of this, including the trial. These cases can take some very unexpected turns.
I hope that MM and JP stay clean in this. But, it is most likely going to get “dirtier”. It will be very hard for many of us to truly see “What’s right”. We’ll only get information that the media can release to us which may not be all the info the jury sees.
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
I don't want to "see" what the jury sees
I feel bad for the people that end up with jury duty in cases like this. The actions and descriptions of said actions would be unnerving.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
Spanier
I still think he needs to resign (and sent him an email yesterday calmly stating my rationale for requesting that he resign), or at the very least be put on administrative leave while the Board of Trustees hires an outside independent investigator to sort out just what exactly Spanier’s role was in this mess. I sincerely hope the Board of Trustees realizes the need for aggressive action like this to try to get to the bottom of everything and to start restoring the university’s reputation. I think his handling of this situation has shown that he’s not fit to lead our great university.
Let's Go State!
by Gopher Broke on Nov 7, 2011 7:25 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
What is the rationale?
I think Graham Spanier has done at least a decent job as university president and, as far as I know, he wasn’t aware of the issue. You can’t create an environment where the head honcho gets canned if any problems occur on-campus; if that was the case, the position would turn into a revolving door and only the most desperate personnel would apply for it.
Tim Curley, on the other hand, has overstayed his welcome as AD and was aware of the issue. It’s good to see that he’s stepping aside (even if he remains on the payroll).
by PatMcPSU on Nov 7, 2011 7:38 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Rationale
1) According to grand jury testimony, Spanier was made aware of the incident by Curley in 2002. Spanier was told that something inappropriate happened in the shower between Sandusky and victim #2. Spanier reportedly approved of Curley’s unenforceable decision (and Curley admitted it was unenforceable) to ban Sandusky from bringing kids into Lasch Building. That’s it. Spanier had to have known there was more to this story, or that what happened warranted something more than just taking away Sandusky’s keys. Spanier was more concerned with keeping the story under wraps than he was with the welfare of this victim or other future potential victims. (I do not know if Spanier was aware then of Sandusky’s 1998 investigation, but if he was, then it’s even more egregious that he did not take any further action.)
2) Spanier’s statement that he “unconditionally supports” Curley and Schultz, saying they were of the highest morals, yada yada, and that he believed that they would be “completely exonerated.” This implies that he disbelieves the testimony of Paterno and McQueary, in opposition to the judgment of the grand jury, which deemed their testimony to be highly trustworthy, while indicting Curley and Schultz for perjury and failure to report abuse. To be charitable, this demonstrates highly questionable judgment on Spanier’s part.
In short, Curley, Schultz, and Spanier have all come out looking like snakes in this mess. By sweeping this issue under the rug, in the name of protecting the university from harm, they have instead brought it irreparable harm (and worse, allowed the abuse of more children). For the good of the university, Spanier must go.
Let's Go State!
by Gopher Broke on Nov 7, 2011 7:54 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Totally with Gopher here. Spanier knew, just like Curley, and somehow we allowing him to get by because of some sort of degree of separation. If anything he should be held to a higher standard since he’s the one in charge and being paid the big bucks to take on the responsibilities involved.
The only way to make this right is to make it absolutely-f**king-clear that this stuff is intolerable, that supporting your boys instead of the truth is intolerable, and that we as alum & students expect much, much more than CYO actions.
Looking like a great university president when things are going well does not make you a great university president. Step up when times are tough or get out of the way. This goes for every single person involved IMO.
by Kevin Powers on Nov 7, 2011 8:10 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You could just make that first point and have enough of a case against Spanier.
Even if he didn’t think that what happened was illegal, it was creepy and wrong and he should have had the foresight to see worse things ahead. I think he’s done a good job as president, but this one major fuck up is inexcusable, so he’s gotta go. That’s life.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 8:49 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This Is NOT just any problem
Ultimately Spanier needs to go.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
by nits4ever on Nov 7, 2011 8:07 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not on the fire Spanier train. I hope the Trustees smacked him around in that meeting and told him to think before he opens his mouth.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Nov 7, 2011 7:39 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I think Spanier should have had some disciplinary action against him, if not being suspended or fired
this happened under his watch and then he opened his mouth. At best right now he looks like a bumbling idiot. Plus, that way, if more is revealed about his involvement, he can be removed easily.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 7:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
FWIW
What I heard is that the BOT cannot make personnel decisions (firing, admin. leave, etc.) without holding a full public session. Last night’s emergency meeting was exclusively an executive session. But please correct me if I’m wrong on this.
Let's Go State!
So what you're saying is
he could still technically be fired, it just cant come from last nights meeting?
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Anyone think he's already a dead man walking then?
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
He's NOT the Only Dead Man Walking
A certain icon is clearly on borrowed time-if he wasn’t already for unrelated reasons. FTR-This is my wife’s opinion as well-she holds it even more strongly than I do.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
by nits4ever on Nov 7, 2011 8:15 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, if you're wife says that Joe must go ...
by kijana's acl on Nov 7, 2011 8:26 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
She Does Think So
I do too-at the end of the season. But I already had that opinion as I think he is physically not able to do the job anymore.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
by nits4ever on Nov 7, 2011 8:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Only Penn Staters are holding out hope for Paterno.
Pretty much everybody else thinks he needs to go.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 8:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Only if you live in Pittsburgh.
That hasn’t really been the case overall, from what I’ve seen.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
Maybe.
But this only starts getting bad today.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 8:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
94 WIP in Philly
Never says a word about Penn State but all this morning and last ngiht they were just having a string of callers saying Joe should eb fired and all the hosts were just blatantly making up crap.
Was really dissapointed.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 8:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
get used to it
people are going to read half an article on Yahoo or ESPN and believe they’ve researched the facts well enough to make a valid opinion on who should or shouldn’t be punished for all of this, then claim its a travesty if what they think should happen doesnt.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 8:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes.
And even after reading the entire grand jury presentment (twice so far for me) no one has the full story yet. “Innocent until proven guilty” and “alleged” sound nice and hopefully still have bearing in a court room. Outside the court room, not so much.
at this point
people’s minds are made up. If anything is proven othewise, its either more coverup, or the prosecution failing and a criminal getting free.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 9:01 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
WIP is a Jole
I want to hear what Mike Missanelli (a PSU grad) has to say on WIP’s competitor this afternoon. I met him two years ago and was impressed-although he like all of us has his faults.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
Agreed
I spent my college years in Philly and nothing other than some music is worth listening to on WIP. They suck.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
And is that surprising?
Everyone else thinks he shouldn’t be coaching regardless of this issue.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
Some of the Joe Must Go crowd
are damn near gleeful. Now they have an even better reason in their minds for wanting him gone. Makes me ill.
To clarify
I wasn’t referring to people on BSD.
I'd be stunned if they can't take action under some emergency clause.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
I would imagine that would be him getting charged with something though
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Maybe. Spanier's contract probably has something about that as well.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
God
these arent the discussions I wanted to be having on a monday morning
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Follow @134Lounge
Ironically, these are conversations I often have on Monday mornings.
But in an entirely different context.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
Is it just me, or does the Curley perjury charge seem kinda silly?
I don’t want to demean the seriousness of the situation and how wrong it was for him to do what he did if the allegations are true. Really, I don’t. If it’s all true, it’s truly awful.
But the fact is that we’re talking about the 1 detail of a conversation between Curley and MM and the level of explicitness of that conversation. MM maintains he explicitly described a sex act. Everyone else involved says he didn’t. I wasn’t there, and unless the place was bugged and/or there are a couple witnesses to the conversation, it seems kinda impossible to prove.
GO IOWA AWESOME, now and forever, unless PSU sees them in the B1G CG
Beat Nebraska.
That's a pretty big detail.
It’s the difference between conducting an investigation into a rape and a discussion about something that may or may not have been inappropriate.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
I don't disagree
All I’m saying is that is seems really impossible to prove one way or another
GO IOWA AWESOME, now and forever, unless PSU sees them in the B1G CG
Beat Nebraska.
It also was a conversation from nine years ago.
Details can get lost in that time.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
The Grand Jury Per its Report
found the GA (Big Red) extremely credible. Lawyers know that most if not all cases (criminal, civl and domestic relations) ultimately come down to credibility and likeability of witnesses. FTR-I have been a civil trial lawyer for 27 years so I would hope I have some minimal insight into that.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
I read that too
so they found him “extremely credible,” but didn’t give any explanation as to why. Why was his testimony more credible? Unless there’s a real reason (and there certainly wasn’t one provided in the Grand Jury’s report), this is a waste of time and money
GO IOWA AWESOME, now and forever, unless PSU sees them in the B1G CG
Beat Nebraska.
I don't expect anything to come of the charges against Curley.
The point of them was to humiliate the university for being morally and ethically deficient.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Mission accomplished.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
If the prosecution feels that's necessary
Don’t you suspect their case is weaker than they’re letting on?
GO IOWA AWESOME, now and forever, unless PSU sees them in the B1G CG
Beat Nebraska.
I probably shouldn't say this, but I am kind of think the graduate assistant may have been the one
perjuring himself. Trust me, I don’t think Curley and the other guy are heros, but I think they are telling the truth, at least as to what MM told them. Here is what I think probably happened. MM saw the henious act, in person. He talked to his Dad, who may have talked him down as to what he say a bit. ’Are you sure you saw that exactly?" etc.
Now, it was probably a lifelong dream of MM to play at PSU, and that dream continued as a coach. I think they considered the ramifications if he told the police, and thought he would no longer be welcomed at PSU. So, they turned to Paterno, and told him a sanatized story. I bet he told the same story to Curley.
Years later, I think as more rumors about Sandusky emerged, he recognized the error in his judgement, and maybe remembered what he told Curley a little differently. I think MM has been feeling a bit of guilt.
Then again, what do I know? Just that it’s a mess.
When you put those black shoes on tomorrow, and you put on that jersey without your name on the back, and you put that plain helmet on, that's tradition. Penn State tradition!
--Who else?
Put yourself in the GA's position
You see something like that, how would you wrap your mind around that. You call your dad up to try to piece together what just happened. How do you then describe what you saw? If you’re so shaken, I myself would have a terrible time repeating what I saw, word for disgusting word. It’s so sick and twisted I don’t even know where to begin.
I believe that GA and Paterno did what they thought were to be correct in this situation. Even if it comes to light that they didn’t, I’m reserving that judgement until proven so.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
me too
because frankly, at this point I need to believe that someone at least tried to do the right thing here.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 8:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And one other thing to consider ...
… we are all looking at this after the fact, and can see all 8 (identified) victims, plus the horrid testimony from each. So our perspective is that Jerry is obviously a bad guy doing bad things repeatedly, etc.
However, back then, the GA saw something unbelievably shocking - e.g., this was a legendary coach, involved in a charitable organization, etc., in a very compromising situation, etc. — but the GA did not have the perspective (that we have) of 2012 hindsight. What he saw had virtually no context. And, sometimes, it is hard for one’s mind to accurately reconcile things like that. So, it is possible that what the GA saw was watered down by the time it got to Joe, even if the watering down was wholly unintentional.
(FWIW, I think this is sort of the same thing that makes it so hard for many people to truly believe what has gone on with some priests, etc.)
by markawiser on Nov 7, 2011 8:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The one who died?
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
no way
There is no way that all he told them was “inappropriate conduct” Put yourself in Curley’s shoes and someone tells you you saw inapprorpiate conduct in the shower. Your next question isn’t “Well what exactly did you see?”
FWIW I do not believe Joe when he said he was only told inappropriate conduct either
Reporter: Can you give us a touchdown celebration, one that you would get penalized for?
Moye: I play at Penn State. I don’t celebrate.
by psupride on Nov 7, 2011 9:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Of course
but it’s also possible that he just caught a glimpse and got out of the shower area as fast as possible. Then in the process of trying to piece it all together, tried to figure out what he did see. He could have then be asked “Are you sure that is exactly what you saw?” And he might have said “well, I’m not sure if that is exactly what I saw, it only saw a split second of it” and there could be where the miscommunication came in.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
And ...
… this isn’t just like reporting about some random stranger that he saw. This is making a claim that will certainly destroy the character and career of a legendary coach, even if in the end that coach is aquitted. Not that it is an excuse not to report, but is likely to make a person think again and again and again (and again) before making such claims.
why do you not believe Joe?
In my opinion, for everything I’ve read and seen about the man over the years, I would give him the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong. And it hasn’t been proven that he wasn’t told more.
and, if McQ said he told Joe more and Joe testified he didn’t, do you really think Joe wouldn’t have been slapped with perjury too?
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Nov 7, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You really believe he didn't follow up
and ask Big Red what he saw? IMO there is no way he lets it stay with inapprorpriate conduct and not ask for a clarification
Reporter: Can you give us a touchdown celebration, one that you would get penalized for?
Moye: I play at Penn State. I don’t celebrate.
But why did he need to know?
“Sandusky” “Little boy” “Late at night” “shower” “naked”
Those would have been the ONLY words I needed to know before reporting it up the chain and arranging a meeting for Mike to see Schultz and Curley. You wanted Joe to interrogate a clearly distraught McQueary when he didn’t need to know the information in it’s completeness?
Joe did exactly as I would have done, it is 100% defensible.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I hope you are right
and can’t say what I would ask- I am just assuming I would have asked the follow up question. This would determine If I would call Curley or the Police.
Reporter: Can you give us a touchdown celebration, one that you would get penalized for?
Moye: I play at Penn State. I don’t celebrate.
He called Schultz
Which is continually being overlooked. He may have thought that with Schultz’s position of power over the UP Police he may have been doing one better than calling the police. I’m not certain he felt that MM had the pull to get that meeting himself so Joe had it arranged.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
This needs to go green
You keep saying it, but everyone keeps ignoring it.
Thank you for being another voice of reason in this whole thing.
by ppfcpp on Nov 7, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Nobody is ignoring it.
He reported to a Vice President in charge of financial matters that is not a police officer, has never been a police officer and whom never told a police officer. “He oversaw the campus police” is a rhetorical red herring.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
would it have made that much of a difference if joe approached
a cop, and said that an employee of his witnessed things that appeared sexual in the shower a couple days ago, compared to the man in charge of overseeing the police?
keep winning ugly
by tlrpsu on Nov 7, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't see any other reason for getting the VP of finance involved
Joe deliberately got Schultz involved. I don’t see any reason that he would pick Schultz, of all people, unless it was because he was in charge of overseeing police. He may not have been a police officer himself, but I don’t think it’s crazy to make the assertion that there’s a possibility that Joe thought that by contacting Schultz he had gotten the campus police involved.
by ppfcpp on Nov 7, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How often do you think this happens to Joe?
You think every year or so someone comes in and says “Hey, guess what I saw?” God I hope not!
I’m pretty sure this was a once-in-a-career thing for Joe. He didn’t know what to do, and Paterno isn’t a maverick. For everyone out there who thinks that Joe is some sort of deity who can do whatever he wants – you’re nuts. Paterno is pretty much the ultimate play by the rules guy.
So he went and had McQueary talk to his boss, because he didn’t know what to do. F’crying out loud, Joe wasn’t trying to bury things under the rug. He wasn’t trying to make things go away.
I have no idea why people think that Paterno should have done more. It’s not his job! Do you know who’s job it is to handle Bad Things™ happening in the athletic department?
Oh wait! Tim Curley!
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 8, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Many people
have already stated their own companies’ policies that sound like they mirror Penn State’s: as soon as it is clear something occurred, don’t pursue or question further and kick it up to those responsible to investigate and report. I continue to be amazed that the man lauded for “doing it the right way” is being thrown under the bus by everyone for doing it the right way.
Everyone needs a scapegoat
And apparently focusing on the guy who actually did the crimes isn’t a big enough one in this case.
Not just companies.
I’ve been questioned twice about crimes that I observed, and gave a sworn statement in one. In neither case was I aware of the outcome. In one case I knew one of the police officers and bumped into him later. When I asked him what ever became of that case he said, “I can’t really go into it.” I never did find out what happened in either case. I’m not equating these crimes (hit and run, domestic abuse) to assault on a child, but I was definitely out of the loop after I provided the information that I had.
I think the charges against Curley and Shultz are a waste of tax dollars.
I used to do a lot of criminal defense…still dabble in it a little, but it’s not my bread and butter anymore…The evidence against Curley and Shultz doesn’t sound all that great…certainly not rising to the level of being able to prove a criminal case. The AG’s office is coming at Curley and Shultz about one fact in a full conversation that occurred about a decade ago. Good luck convincing a jury beyond a reasonable doubt on that one. Much gets lost in translation in any conversation.
Not only that, I’m relatively confident that Curley and Shultz will be able to find eighty-bizillion extremely high level character witnesses to testify on their behalf.
Did Curley and Shultz lie? Maybe. But finding them guilty in a criminal court over this will be a tall order, IMO.
Publicly disgraced is good enough for me.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And completely removed from anything PSU related
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My thoughts exactly
It seems like the AG just wanted to drag current PSU people through the mud to make himself feel good
GO IOWA AWESOME, now and forever, unless PSU sees them in the B1G CG
Beat Nebraska.
There is no evidence that the AG has an axe to grind here
As I’ve posted elsewhere, at a minimum Curley and Schutlz failed to ask obvious follow up questions which, with the involvement of kids, make those failures unforgiveable. Even if the AG is simply making an example of these men, I’m fine with that. And I’d be fine with that if the facts were a bit different and it was JoePa taking administrative leave.
by kijana's acl on Nov 7, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What we know
The AG has leveled unprovable (barring recordings and/or other eye witnesses) charges at two university officials based on one man’s testimony of a conversation that happened years (approaching a decade) ago at taxpayer expense. This is absolutely, undeniably true.
Either the AG knows that’s true, in which case he’s just out to use taxpayer money to take a run at the reputations of these men or their affiliation(s) (read: Penn State), or he doesn’t know that’s true, in which case he’s an idiot. There’s no logical middle ground. Either he does know it’s true or he doesn’t.
GO IOWA AWESOME, now and forever, unless PSU sees them in the B1G CG
Beat Nebraska.
This isn't unusual. Many charges don't have direct evidence attached to them other than testimony.
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by Adam Collyer on Nov 7, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously
That doesn’t change anything
GO IOWA AWESOME, now and forever, unless PSU sees them in the B1G CG
Beat Nebraska.
I just don't buy the idea that the goal is ruin Curley and Schultz's reputations
That’s an awfully cynical (and conspiratorial) interpretation. As I said above, if the only result of this action is that the next time the AD at a school hears about something remotely similar, he acts; then the AG has succeeded.
Well, at least we know there are adults in the room.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
Amen to that
Hopefully we see a few more step up in the near future. Listening to the children on the news and sports shows, and the internet, is maddening.
Seems like so few people are actually worried about the children in this case, just trying to make their stupid point.
But They ALL Say They are "for the Kids"
Sadly too few of us truly are. I have posted here and on twitter and sent an e-mail to Spanier on behalf of MK (the PSU alum in this household) and myself that for now we cannot give any money to PSU with the exception of THON-which we already give to. We will increase our donations to THON by the amount not going to PSU itself.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
by nits4ever on Nov 7, 2011 8:11 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You've said that multiple times
I guess your proud of it and all, but I kinda think it is stupid. I give to my specific college so that they can continue to have resources to provide a great education for the students that follow me, and that will continue.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 8:15 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
The Amount We Give
is a drop in the bucket so to speak. Ultimately it is my wife’s decision. It is possible she will change her mind and write a check specifically directed to the College of Education. However, she is extremely upset about this situation right now.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
I think we all are
and we all have to do what we view is the correct action to take at this point in time. I don’t think anybody isn’t upset about this presently.
Can we go back to arguing about which QB sucks more?
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
I said this in another thread but...
If you are catholic and are still giving to the catholic church then please explain to me how you are not a hypocrite? (If you specifically are not, then I am sure there is someone in this thread who can step up and answer this question)
This is about one guy, who is (allegedly) a terrible terrible person. Dont fault an entire university.
by RitterPSU on Nov 7, 2011 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The current administration
is the longest-tenured in the nation and in PSU history precisely b/c the trains run on time and money continues to flow. If disaffected alums believe we need a change at the top, their only recourse is to vote with their wallets.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
by PSU_Buch on Nov 7, 2011 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Pretty much this.
When Spanier and Curley officially no longer have jobs at PSU, I’ll gladly contribute again. But until then, I’m protesting their tenure about the only way I can.
In this room there are ADULTS ...
In every other comment section on every other site there are morons upon morons going off fully cocked … not just half-cocked!!!! No one knows the whole truth, yet people want to whitewash everything and fire everyone, including JOEPA who actually was PRAISED by the STATE PROSECUTOR and/or ATTORNEY GENERAL that he did the right things in this situation.
by nxk146 on Nov 7, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
At the very least it's a step in the right direction.
I was nervous when I flipped to CNN.com of what I’d find but at least the university has taken steps to begin distancing itself from these individuals.
Sure they may be morally bankrupt
but at least they’re punctual I guess.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 8:23 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I appreciate the effort. The BOT is trying to make the right moves here. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Nov 7, 2011 8:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
They've met my "demand" such as it was.
I still don’t feel better.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
you could edit their Wikipedia pages to say mean things about them
maybe that will help. Personally I’m going to refer to anything I dislike as “Curley-ish”
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you could totally sneak that into his Wiki page
Tim Curley, also known as Flaccid Weasel in some circles, is what is referred to commonly by experts, as a total asshat.
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In the meantime on the national front
The program is being pummeled. Mike and Mike this morning especially hit Joe hard, repeating what we have all been talking about, should he have done more to follow up? I can see a scenario where he and Spanier both may end up going, not based on legalities but on the moral issue.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
by JuniataMan on Nov 7, 2011 8:28 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
You are 100% correct......
This case isn’t about somebody stealing someone’s 401K, it’s about stealing a child’s LIFE…..it is the MORAL issue that will take down this entire administration.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Nov 7, 2011 8:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You will have to forgive me
I may come to this conclusion, eventually, but since you clearly have an axe to grind with Joe, I take all of your opinions with a mountain of salt. And really, I’d write this to all of the commenters who have long looked for reasons for Joe to go, and are using this horrible situation as an opportunity to further that goal. It’s pathetic and transparent.
I am torn up about this situation and a large part of me would like to burn the program to the ground and start over, but this isn’t about football and it isn’t about appearances or taking the opportunity to run Joe out the back door. We’re going to be dealing with the fall out of this calamity for a long time, I’d like to see what additional facts are revealed before we lynch a man who has spent 60 years at Penn State building men.
by kijana's acl on Nov 7, 2011 8:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Derry is pretty far from having an axe to grind with Joe
but I agree with your sentiments about not tearing down paterno until the facts are all revealed.
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He's my uncle
So I can say without a doubt that the guy LOVES Joe. I think some of his past comments about hoping Joe hangs it up soon have much more to do with a concern that Joe will hurt himself or his reputation.
If you knew DerryPharmer personally, you’d know that he has no axe to grind with Joe. In fact, I think most of us who actually know him think that he falls a lot more on the “Saint Joe” side of the aisle.
Are you kidding me?
REALLY?! It’s obvious you have not actually read any of Derry’s posts. As a PSU grad & Derry’s Daughter (my father is not an alum, FYI), he is even more of a "homer" than I am, i.e. he has ALWAYS staunchly supported Joe – even when I & other family members may have been calling for him to retire. Additionally, just because I, or anyone, feels Coach should hang it up at the end of this year, does mot mean we "don’t like him", "have an axe to grind", "hate PSU", (insert cliché here), etc. It means we in fact, care so much about him & the program, that we would like to see things change while they still can. So, please, before you insult him, take the time to process what Derry says. It is The Truth … and it’s from the ultimate place of wanting anything related to Penn State to flourish.
On a side note, this scandal has obviously hit us all very hard, at least anyone who truly has a heart where the university is concerned. But I for one will be there Saturday, wearing the gear, cheering for the boys. This team DID NOT/DOES NOT have anything to do with what happened (just like by the very fact that I have a degree from there, does not mean I "supported" a child abuser, nor render my hard earned diploma useless.) I ask that the students Do not do what has been suggested on the "other site" (starts with Pe, and ends with live), and stage a walk out vs. a white out – again, the current players (especially the seniors who are to honored on Saturday) do not deserve it. It may feel a little odd, but just don’t take it out on them. Please, for the love of God, try to stay classy.
by PghNittany on Nov 7, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Admittedly, I only know Derry from what he posts here
to say that I did not read or process what he wrote is a silly attempt to marginalize my criticism. I interpretted words, over time, to mean something. I’m not someone who thinks that people who fault Joe (in this case or generally) hate PSU or have an axe to grind. i simply wrote that using this situation to try and push a previously stated agenda – one that your cousin readily admitted he has – is wrong.
So please, get off your soapbox. My initial comment was clearly directed at “all of the commenters who have long looked for reasons for Joe to go,” a group that I feel your father belongs to.
I do appreciate you defending your father, but your indignation is silly.
Please, let's agree to draw the line in the sandbox ...
Because that’s the only thing about which we will agree here. The only "agenda" my father has ever had is that he is passionate about the program. And again, he, or any of us saying that we felt Joe needed to retire at season’s end, is out of concern. And with what has happened, I, unfortunately feel that it will take its toll on Coach’s health & well being; so the issue has become compounded. And I’m staying on the soapbox – it’s way more clear up here.
It would be awesome to have this discussion with Derry
instead of his proxy. Instead, you make the same point – Joe should step down (this time for health reasons) – while claiming that you are not making that argument. It’s puzzling, but I don’t want to discuss it any further with you.
by kijana's acl on Nov 8, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Who, me ... or my Dad?
LOL – trying to find any opportunity to crack a smile in all of this.
Nobody ever waits
for the facts to come out, which sucks. Hopefully that will cause everyone to move on faster though too. With the exception of the justice sytem which I hope gets this right.
That's the only thing I'm asking
instead of burning everybody at the stake, wait until all the cards are on the table. If Paterno aided in a coverup, well then that will be apparent. We don’t know what Paterno was told by Curley, if anything, and until we do, we have no idea if Joe asked follow up questions or not.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
I'm sure Joe wanted no part of this situation and handed it off to his superior, hoping to forget the whole thing happened...
but that was a very selfish way to handle it. It was morally wrong to not follow through and make sure it gets to the PROPER authorities. No one wants to see Joe go like this but if he would have handled it correctly from the start then this would already be a thing of the past. His legacy is now forever tarnished.
by burmbuster on Nov 7, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
A strong case could be made that Schultz WAS the proper authorities.
If McQueary had handled it correctly from the start things would be different. Joe may have thought he was doing the kids one better by getting McQueary an audience with Schultz. No one should say anything about his legacy until we know the full unedited story. That will come next year.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I wouldn't really consider Mike and Mike the national front.
There are going to be actual newsmen and women following this story. We’ll see how it plays out publicly.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 8:54 AM EST up reply actions
There are going to be actual newsmen and women following this story.
I have it on very good authority that you are right.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
No, it's exactly what I expected.
But I also know it to be true.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
And how do you think it will play out?
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
I guess my point is,
that when actual journalists become the majority of those covering this story, the Joe Must Go angle is more muted. These people won’t come in with an axe to grind like seemingly everyone who covers college football. Joe is a secondary character in this drama, and I think will be treated as such.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
on NPR this morning
he was quite literally the last person mentioned. Not quite a footnote, but not the headline like it is in sports circles.
Fire Dan Snyder
Joe shouldn't have to go out like this...
that was sucks the most, behind, the actual events of course.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
by EREX21 on Nov 7, 2011 8:30 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
We should just let JoePa beat up Sandusky.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 8:35 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
all we can expect Joe to do is ask Curley to beat him up.
I have 2 issues with Paternos statement. Joe says that he did what he was supposed to but why not admit that he should clearly done more? The guy second guesses whether he should have played Bolden more last season but he’s not second guessing himself that he should have done more in this case. I don’t think he did anything legally wrong but imo he needed to do more.
I also question if paterno told the truth that 2002 was the first he heard of anything…I would be surprised if he didn’t know about the 1998 investigation especially since he told sandusky in may 99 that he wasn’t going to be the next coach….the timeline is too coincidental for me.
by JRM397 on Nov 7, 2011 8:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
It's almost incomprehensible that Joe lied about this
But that question will be the undoing of Joe if it happens. Scott Paterno says Joe didn’t know about the 98 incident or else he would have acted entirely differently about the 02 incident. It’s a big university but hard to believe that the 98 incident was kept that quiet. Incomprehensible.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
by JuniataMan on Nov 7, 2011 8:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
agreed
my mind just cannot process it at this point.
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I was there in 98.
I didn’t hear a thing. Hbeach08 who was a player at the time has said on here before that he hadn’t heard anything.
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Unfortunately
It seems like now “everyone” heard rumours at the time. Amazing, huh?
I know, that kind of thing happens all the time.
And I shouldn’t have spoken for hbeach08. He did it very well himself later in this thread.
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+1
Agreed. Just too much of a coincidence. BTW-I know JoePa told Sandusky that at some point-how do we know it was May 1999? (although that certainly sounds plausible given what then happened later that year)
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
Read the article on Paternos press release on www.bwi.rivals.com…its a free article. It sites that paterno told him to choose between the Second Mile and Coaching.
by JRM397 on Nov 7, 2011 9:10 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I mentioned this in the earlier post about this.
Joe’s reason for Sandusky not to be the next coach was probably the same reason Joe didn’t want to retire before the 2005 season. According to Joe, after retirement, you die.
why not admit that he should clearly done more?
Once again, not to beat a dead horse, how do we know that he didn’t do more that we don’t know about? Until that question is asked, we can’t know if he did know more.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Nov 7, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Depending on how credible you think Scott Paterno is
He came out and said (for God knows what reason) that Joe never had a second conversation about it after setting McQueary up with Schultz and Curley. Those who were complaining about Joe not doing more NOW have evidence to ask such things. Yesterday they were very wrong to do so, but now that that tidbit is out, it’s fair if Scott speaks for Joe.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
For reals.
Why the hell would you speak publicly about this if you weren’t at all involved.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
yeah
his comments make absolutely no sense in any way.
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Is he acting as Joe's counsel?
That’s the only plausible reason I can think of for him opening his mouth.
by PSU Mudder on Nov 7, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The guy couldn't hack it on his own.
No way he is serving as Joe’s counsel in this.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
P.S.
Last I saw he was running/integrally a part of a large firm’s lobbying arm in HBG. I assume he still is.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
He prepared Joe's initial statement
I dont know what that entails exactly. It certainly doesn’t mean he should be making comments about what joe thought or did on his behalf though.
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I dont know what that means exactly
I mean, did he just type it up for Joe or did he help him write it?
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What I meant was that
it blows my mind, with all of the lawyers Joe might use, he uses his son. According to the Disciplinary Board, he is “Administrative[ly] Suspen[ded].” Even if it’s just an oversight with paying dues or maintaining CLE hours, it is what it is. And, he practices with MLB, one of the heavier hitters of Big Law. You can’t tell me that he was the most qualified in that firm to assist Joe.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
I know nothing about Scott
so I dont know.
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I suppose neither do I.
Maybe he is most qualified.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
It is quite strange that he would comment at all.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
I remembered reading this too but I couldn’t find the article to respond to him…plus I read so many articles I wasn’t sure if I had misspoke.
by JRM397 on Nov 7, 2011 2:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Aside from the facts of the abuse and......
they are horrible, but there are some who will not be satisfied until Joe goes and the entire coaching staff….I don’t see Joe survivng this debacle and believe me, it’s irrelevant in regard to the kids, but 65+ years of good will for naught because of a classic case of pedophilia. AND the bottom line still remains—How did that bastard still have access to Lasch, keys no less, after a lot of people knew of his transgressions. The wrong people, in these cases, always seemed to be “protected”. The worst is yet to come and it has nothing to do with a FB team and its season. Big changes are blowin’ in the wind, my friends.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Nov 7, 2011 8:44 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
As (Almost) Always Derry
You are right.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
by nits4ever on Nov 7, 2011 8:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sadly I dont see Joe or the staff making it through this either
for a multitude of reasons. And its sad that his legacy and the good he’s done throughout the years will be twisted and cast in doubt forever.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 8:48 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t feel bad for Joe if he goes. In my mind, while not legally in the wrong as curley and schultz, morally he is just as wrong.
by JRM397 on Nov 7, 2011 8:58 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
?!
Oh, come on. Regardless of what you think Paterno should have done, there’s no way he’s morally as wrong as Curley and Schultz.
It was their job to handle these things, and they didn’t do it. Sandusky was retired for 3 years by then. Paterno had no authority whatsoever over him, and he did what I think 99% of people in the country would do. Tell someone in charge what happened.
What Curley and Schultz did is way, way worse.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
“Paterno had no authority”…..are you being serious? You don’t need to be someone’s boss to report them for a crime. Paterno knew that Curley and Schultz did nothing about it. In my opinion that’s just as bad especially with the position that Paterno holds.
by JRM397 on Nov 7, 2011 10:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I am strictly looking at it from a moral standpoint not a legal standpoint. Morally its pathetic that we need a law requiring someone to report child abuse.
by JRM397 on Nov 7, 2011 10:06 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
techinically he did report it
Schultz was head of the University Police Department.
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Thats NOT the correct authority to report a crime of this magnitude to...
this wasn’t a radio that was stolen or a lap top stolen. This was dealing with the safety and welfare of kids.
by burmbuster on Nov 7, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The University Police Department is valid police department.
They did have jurisdiction over the crime, and reporting this, or any other crime, that occurs in University Park to them is perfectly valid and appropriate. They are by means the only authority you could contact in this situation, but they are perfectly valid authority to report to.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
PSU PD
is on par with any municipal PD—e.g., State College PD.
Should he have gone to the State Police? Well, if you live in a town with local police coverage and there is a murder, 911 sends the local police first. I tend to think going to PSU PD, who had jurisdiction, was a satisfactory move.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
That was exactly the correct authority to report it to.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
That's completely bass-ackwards
You could also say morally it’s pathetic that we need a law against child abuse.
You have the law because it’s a moral imperative to report it. And the law says how you’re supposed to report it. And how is just as important as reporting it in the first place! You screw up and go outside the right way to do things, and that’s how people get off on technicalities in the legal process.
There is nothing morally wrong against doing exactly what you’re asked to do.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm sorry to keep being so technical with you, but I think this is important.
People don’t get off on technicalities because the person reporting the crime didn’t follow rules. So long as the police follow the rules everything is fine.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Maybe not directly
but ordinary people can absolutely screw things up. You go to the media first, and at best, you taint the jury pool, at worst you might chase off a witness who just wants to get away from all the attention. Or maybe you’re a moron and think you need to embellish a situation to make the case sound stronger, because, y’know, the guy’s guilty and you have to put him away, the prosecution doesn’t know it, and the whole trial goes boom.
Shouldn’t’ve said “technicalities,” I agree.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Paterno knew that Curley and Schultz did nothing about it.
I HATE statements like this. At this point, we have no idea what Curley and Schultz told Paterno if he tried to follow up. So stop it with this nonsense.
by Ben16 on Nov 7, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Paterno did not witness it!
He can’t report them for a crime. It’s hearsay.
He directed McQueary to Curley because McQueary’s the one who has to report it, and Curley is the one who can do something about it.
If Sandusky would’ve still been a member of his staff, then Paterno could’ve gone with them and then asked “OK, so what do I do about this now?” But there’s nothing Paterno could have done, because he had no authority over Sandusky to do anything. Curley did. He didn’t. He’s the one to blame. The end.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, the rules of evidence don't apply unless your in Court.
Leave them to the professionals.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
"Hearsay" is a word, not a legal term
I don’t want Paterno reporting what someone else told him. I want Paterno telling that person to go to the authorities himself, and then if he doesn’t, doing it himself.
Why? Because if Paterno goes and reports it, it’s secondhand, and could easily be twisted. Both ways – if McQueary didn’t really see something serious, then if he overstates it to Paterno, he’s risking Sandusky’s reputation. However, if McQueary did see something serious, and he downplays it, there’s a chance the authorities only do a cursory investigation because it doesn’t sound that important.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
There’s no reason to be a condescending dick to a point you don’t agree with.
So Bleed Blue ‘n White isn’t a lawyer that doesn’t mean he can’t have an opinion. Also I’ve read quite a few articles with actual lawyers who agree with him that Joe had little to go to the police with.
(I found it more amusing that he automatically thought that me using a word with a legal meaning meant that I was using it in a legal term. He needs to get out more.)
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
He can’t report them for a crime. It’s hearsay.
This is 100% wrong. “Hearsay” in the context you are using is a legal objection to evidence. Not a reason to not report something to the authority. What you said was wrong.
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Hearsay...
hearsay (usually uncountable; plural hearsays):
information that was heard by one person about another
Hearsay in the context I was using it is a word, jesse. It means exactly what I said. I don’t want people reporting hearsay to the police unless the primary witness refuses to go.
Maybe I should’ve said “shouldn’t” rather than “can’t”. Does that make it clearer?
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Shouldn't is a judgment call.
You said can’t, in the context that he would have been violating the law or other such thing. Your explanation makes your point much clearer.
A person should not fail to report a crime to authority on the basis of “hearsay” information any more than they should fail to report it because the information they have doesn’t comply with the “business records exemption”.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
See, now you're the one using a wrong word...
“should not” where you should probably be using “may” (switching the negatives around, obviously).
I don’t think anyone’s actually required to report a crime based on secondhand information.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Your argument is that Joe Paterno was not required to report the abuse...
…or in the alternative he did. These arguments are correct.
He didn’t have to do more in the legal sense. The question I’m asking, and having a hard time coming up with a satisfactory answer to, is why not simply call CYF? The fact that MM could have done it, Curley should have done it, whatever, doesn’t solve the problem for me.
He wasn’t required to report it. This is true. But that’s simply not enough for me right now.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Why isn't "maybe he didn't know" a good enough answer?
There are policies in place at Penn State for sexual harassment, etc. They’re not “everything you could do” but it’s basically implied it’s “what you’re supposed to do.”
The guy was freaking 70+ years old at the time. If it were me, I’d be calling my boss, and letting him handle it, because I wouldn’t know what to do, and dang-gummit, I’m too old to learn what to do.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Why isn’t “maybe he didn’t know” a good enough answer?
Because a ten year old kid got raped again.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
That’s the government’s fault, then. If having CYF around is enough, then the government needs to do more to make sure everyone knows they can use them. Or it could be Penn State’s fault, for not informing everyone (and reminding everyone) that they can be called as well.
I just don’t understand your reasoning of essentially “blaming yourself” when you do what you’re supposed to do.
It’s not constructive. It doesn’t fix anything. The only thing it does is placate people who would want to see blame dished onto Paterno.
And you know what? I would rather see actual change result in real benefit.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I really disagree with all of this.
Please, for the love of god, if you think somebody is abusing a kid, call somebody.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Great!
You’ve convinced me.
Now what about the millions of people who don’t know what to do? You think a post on an internet forum will help?
This is the reason why Universities have guidelines for this stuff, and this is why you follow them.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
A famous football coach addressing the situation might help a great deal
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Then again it might ruin his credibility as a witness...
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
No way
First off, Paterno isn’t a good enough public speaker (as in public, public, on TV, etc. – in person he’s still very good) anymore to have a serious impact on a national scale.
Second, the effect goes away in what, a year or so?
The system sticks around. People don’t.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
McQueary and Paterno did call somebody...
In hindsight, they could and should have done more, but when you say ‘call somebody’ you’re making it sound like they participated in covering it up.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
It could be argued that by calling Schultz instead of the police directly they were going above and beyond what was necessary.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have been wrestling with that as well
But my conclusion is simply that he expected MM and Curley (as well as Shultz) to do this. He had absolutely no reasonable expectation that those involved wouldn’t do just that. He is expecting the system to work, because within his system, it does (i.e. when someone presents a problem with the football team, he handles it)
So if the only issue here is that he could have called the CYF, then I don’t think he needs to. Obviously, this wasn’t the case. But at the time he should have no expectation that he needed to insert himself further into the situtation. It was in the hands of the proper authorities
When nothing came of it, and there were no other public incidinces brought to his attention, why would a reasonable person not assume that the matter was investigated and settled? Should a reasonable person really feel the need to follow up? Personally, I don’t think so.
Of course, there is now a lot more evidence that probably makes Joe, as well as McQueary wish they would have pushed the issue. For that matter, there are probably incidents involving Second Mile employees and volunteers that wish they would have continued.
But, at least for me, it comes back to making a decision with the information available at the time. Unless something scathing comes out, I have to imagine that MM, MM’s father, and Joe all assumed (as any rational person should) that the incident was being properly handled by the authorities. I can’t justify crucifying a man based on hindsight vision being 20/20.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I freely concede that I am holding Joe Paterno to a high standard.
I’m holding him to the standard of the guy that’s been my hero since I was seven years old. He’s just a man. I understand that. And I don’t think that I am “crucifying” him.
I’ve said he should offer his resignation, apologize and say he could have done more. I think he should say that he should have done more. I think he needs to help other people learn what you can do if you suspect that a child is being abused. As I said earlier, if the Board of Trustees chooses not to accept the resignation I’m fine with that.
He can still be my hero, but he won’t be if hides behind “I did all I can” because I know that’s not true. At the bear minimum this needs to be a teachable moment. Only Joe Paterno has the power to get us out of this mess.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I think I'm in agreement with all of this
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That bullshit, utter bullshit. Joe got the word up to people who were supposed to do something about it.
They didn’t. They were FAR FAR FAR more wrong than Joe was morally.
Just admit you hate Joe Paterno if you think that this one thing undoes the DECADES of good the man has done for us. You know what Penn State would be if it weren’t for him? Not nearly as respected as it has been. The man gave us jobs, the minimum he deserves is for us to not all turn our backs on him because of one thing.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Say Joe does retire/is forced out/etc.
Would any “big name” coach even consider coming here after all this?
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
by DrewRusse on Nov 7, 2011 8:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Money Talks
Someone will come. I have a man in mind if he would agree to-but I doubt he would.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
My Candidate
would be a caretaker of sorts-but one with some real authority in many ways. I wouldn’t expect him to stay more than 5 years.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
by nits4ever on Nov 7, 2011 9:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry if this is an old story
But did anyone hear that Urban Meyer bought a house in Boalsburg? If this is old be kind and just say no, that’s not true.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
I don't think this will really tarnish the reputation of Penn State
in the long run. Of course people are upset, sickened, disappointed, and angry, but I think that will eventually settle down some after the initial fury.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
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by Paige2PSU on Nov 7, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
can you say anything more, derry?
Any subtle hints as to what may come next, down the road? Besides Spanier, who should be gone, IMHO, are we missing a bigger picture?
by rju103 on Nov 7, 2011 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Right now....
I am waiting as you are to see what unfolds in the next couple of days….although I think that Joe did the right thing, he WILL and is taking a big hit on the moral responsibilty of this case. The very least of this deal is that the bastard was allowed to “hang around” the athletic buildings, with keys, and “people” had to know about Sandusky’s travails and one would have to wonder about two things: 1) Well, Jerry is still hangin’ around the facilities and must be ok and 2) Wait, that bastard was/is abusing kids, how is he still here. I’m just speculating…but it seems very clear to me that alot of people knew something was not kosher, so to speak.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Nov 7, 2011 9:05 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We've pretty much only heard the prosecutions side
According to the attorneys in the group, I’m not one. Is it possible there are a whole set of facts out there that we haven’t heard? Can the GJ report be that one sided?
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
Yes. It's the purpose of the Grand Jury report.
The Grand Jury decides on whether there’s enough potential evidence to take to trial in order for a jury to make findings of fact.
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#OccupyESPN
OK, good
About how long is it before the other side of the story starts to emerge? I would think the defense would play their cards close and not reveal too much until they have to. Again, I have no idea.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
Pretty typical. Schultz's attorney has already put a few procedural defenses on the table.
We’ll see where it all leads. I think the perjury and failure to report charges are unlikely to move very quickly. A secondary issue to the much larger problem.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
Since it's in the courts now
I guess we won’t have any public revelations of a significant nature by Joe or anyone else now. It could be awhile before the whole story comes out if I understand correctly.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
A pennlive article had some quotes from the defense attorney from either curley or schultz…basically his comments were the law for school officials to report possible sexual abuse does not apply to curley and schultz because the child was not under their discretion. (i.e. It was a second mile kid not a psu student). The second comment is that the statute of limitations is only two years for this law so after 2004 they cannot be tried. (Didn’t hear any defense for the perjury).
Either way, to have a defense based on technicalities is pathetic.
by JRM397 on Nov 7, 2011 9:44 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
True. But it's the attorney's job.
I have no problem with defense attorneys using every weapon in the arsenal. Prosecutors certainly do.
In the end, I don’t think that either the failure to report or the perjury charges go to trial. The damage has already been done and action will be taken. Penn State will make personnel changes, policy changes, and maybe organizational structure changes (like NOT having the head of finance in charge of the university investigative force), and Sandusky will likely go to prison.
Just how I see it playing out. An opinion and nothing more.
Just remember....
A defense attorney that works for, say, Curley, will do whatever he can to discredit the evidence against their client and the testimony of others. If that means making JoePa, MM or even BSD the fall guy, they’ll do it. Remember, they work for their client and it is their job to “legally” do what they can to get their client the lightest judgement possible.
So, when the different defense attorneys start, there will be lot’s of conflicting and confusing “facts” thrown out. Remember Casey Anthony. The defense attorney made a comment in his opening remarks that she was abused by her dad, then did nothing to try prove that. However, did that “unfounded” comment have any influence on any jurors? Who knows?
Just saying, it will continue to get uglier before it gets better.
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
thanks Derry
I was – and still am – shocked and disgusted by the GJ report I read over the weekend. I am trying to withhold judgement and allow for due process, but it is difficult. As I have two young daughters, i could never, ever, envision anyone attempting something similar to them. It would, at a best case, cause a part of me inside to die. I don’t think I could stand by idlely (sp?) after this occurred…
Thanks…
by rju103 on Nov 7, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How is that clear?
It doesn’t seem to me like a lot of people knew it for certain. And I wonder what the policy is for removing someone’s emeritus benefits? I’m sure that there has to be a full process.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
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One of my concerns
Is the Attorney General is screwing this up so well that even if Jerry did commit crimes he’s going to get off. And in the process the kids, first and foremost, will get dragged through the whole ugly mess only to be told the man got off free. That would be an even greater crime.
*
That is ALWAYS a Concern
No such thing as a slam dunk criminal trial in a case like. I assume the Perv will get a high-powered criminal defense lawyer as opposed to a Happy Valley local to actually try the case.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
I Expect
someone from Philly or Pittsburgh will actually try the case-with Amendola’s help of course.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
There is a guy out of DC that is pretty much the "go to" pedophile attorney.
My guess is he comes in, and that Amendola stays on as local counsel.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Ugh
Imagine being described as "the “go to” pedophile attorney."
Run.
by Bob Sacamano on Nov 7, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Civil suit
Allot of the AGs work will help the victims families in civil suits or as a class action suit against PSU (which is coming and will effect each and every PSU employee/student in the checkbook). Conversely this is why PSU is paying for Curley and Cos legal defense. They will have to do it again in a few years anyway.
This is why from a PR prospective it better to let all parties go/retire ASAP (which will be part of a settlement as it was in Boston with the church). Even Big Red should move on sad to say. The Civil suit makes all these guys dead man walking especially if the boy comes forward and confirms the shower acts big Red witnessed.
Civil Suit Solution
is writng checks-with lots of zeros in them. Nothing good can come out of exhaustive testimony-much more so than in a criminal trial-just less publicized-although maybe not here.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
its not just checks
The lawyers for the victims can negotiate not just for money but for personnel decisions as well. IE “yes we will be happy with a million dollars but if you don’t fire XXX then I will need $3 million”.
Then Do It
if the individuals had any involvment with this.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
by nits4ever on Nov 7, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Big Red Moving On
By the time the civil suits get going (after the Sandusky criminal trial) McQueary will be elsewhere. For one reason or another there will be a completely new football staff at PSU by then. But as I posted above the best solution is to just settle the claims ASAP.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
I am sorry
and I hope I am not alone, but I have no problem with some of the money I donate to the university going to these victims. None. They deserve at least some compensation, no matter how minute in the grand scheme of things, and if the University is found to be partially responsible in a civil law suit, then so be it.
Fire Dan Snyder
No Problem with Our Money Going to the Victims
But we (MK and myself) don’t want our money going to pay for attorney fees incurred by Curley and Schultz.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
Moral/Ethical issues
I guess my biggest issue is that clearly the signs were there dating back to the investigtion in 1998 and Sandusky retiring in ‘99 after being told he’d never be HC. At that point everyone involved – including Joe – would have been better off getting out in front of this. I personally would rather have seen a defamation law suit by Sandusky than this. At least the University could have said with clear a clear conscience, “our #1 concern was the kids.” They all knew something wasn’t right even if they didn’t know how truly groteteque it was. If it smells bad it probably is…
by PSU Jen on Nov 7, 2011 8:51 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I thought a lot about this in general (not specific to this case)
And I think in many instances the people involved just don’t want to believe it is true, and in hindsight feel very stupid. In this case Sandusky had every reason to have these kids around a lot, and I bet there were signs that people just didn’t pick up on because they were unimaginable.
Then you just have what appears to be criminal negligence on some people parts.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 8:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Pedophiles and abusers are very adept at....
maneuvering people and covering their tracks……my daughter-in-law who works in the Mental Health field and worked at PSU FB facilities as a student while Sandusky was there and she does recall the strange number of children that were hanging around with him…..it’s the old conundrum——I find a situation strange and then it’s time to go on with your chores and put it out your mind. Now years later, 20-20 hindsight makes her feel bad that she should have commented to someone about it. Who knew?? That’s why in these specific cases, it’s so hard to know what you should exactly do…..morals, ethics!
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Nov 7, 2011 9:17 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
THere was a girl interviewed on Channel 6 in Philly who worked at Second Mile and said there was no way she would believe it unless he told her himself because he was such a good man. I hope she is right, I can’t imagine how, but it is amazing how these people can operate and a lot of it is because people just can’t imagine it is happening.
It's worth mentioning...
… that accusing somebody of Child Molestation is a big deal. Especially somebody who was as prominent in the community as Jerry Sandusky was. That’s one part of the story that I do feel is being lost in coverage.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
THAT is exactly why.....
many,more people are being blamed for this tragedy than just Sandusky.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
I deal with this in my work.
More than 95% of the population I would think. I have a case going to Court on it this week. Thankfully, in what I do (I’m a custody lawyer primarily) the accusations are generally bullshit. But trust me, pulling the trigger on calling somebody a child molester is a huge deal.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Also
he was head of a charity that helped childred, correct? So is it really that weird for kids to be around him? I mean, we see stories of kids visiting the football facilities all the time for things like THON.
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it really is
this is all so seriously vomit inducing.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good analogy.
The crime makes you squirm, everyone is an idiot, and none of the characters are worth developing.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
Good God, No.
What’s the over/under on how long it takes for this to become an episode of SVU? …of course they’d have to put a college football program in Manhattan, and that’s just preposterous (like any of their other story lines aren’t preposterous).
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
It will be on during sweeps
on the bright side, maybe Craig T Nelson will play the role of the coach who regrets not doing more.
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Only if
Bill Fagerbakke plays the “wrong place at the wrong time” GA.
/laughstokeepfromcrying
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
actually I think Nelson is out
I’m pretty sure he’s been in an episode of SVU before.
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ADA Novak appeared as a perp in an episode before she was ADA Novak
They’ve recycled plenty of actors on that show.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
very true
that always weirded me out though. Like “hey, didn’t she fake someones death as an accidental auto-erotic asphyxiation death” (try saying that 10 times fast (no wait, dont)).
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one ran on 9/29
see my post below
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
it was a Law and Order Episode (SVU to be exact)
a new one, barely a month ago. I watched it. Only it was a basketball coach running the foundation
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
OMG
they have the inside infozzzzz!
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I don't post particularly often
But like pretty much everyone else, I feel the need to say that I’m shocked and ashamed by all of this, and I hope at the very least the BOT is working around the clock to do the RIGHT thing, and not just trying to cover asses. And let’s all hope justice is done, for the sake of kids who were preyed upon. That’s all.
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
Luckily NPR
Seems to be doing a good job of reporting the facts and not being out for blood indiscriminantly (sp?). Knock on wood. Gives me something to listen to.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 9:05 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
But let’s be honest, how many people are tuning into NPR to get information from this story. The court of public has already rendered a verdict here.
Run.
by Bob Sacamano on Nov 7, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Good thing
The court of public opinion is usually completely off base. Casey Anthony case excluded.
New guy - had to post
I can’t get past the MM thing. How do you keep from calling the police if you witness this with your own eyes? Paterno and others are cullpable, but they didn’t SEE what this piece of garbage did. Why isn’t Mcqueary being lambasted? I see someone doing that to a ten year old, the first thing I do is stop it, then I call the cops while the guy is lying on the shower floor bleeding from his well deserved wounds. I just simply cannot understand any of these people!!!!
I agree. I think they are all at fault….mm, paterno, curley, schultz & spanier. To me the only questionable one is spanier because who knows what exactly curley told him but still.
by JRM397 on Nov 7, 2011 9:20 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I've said the same thing!
If you know the kid is around 10, you stop it and beat Sanduskey’s face in then call the cops. If the kid looks like he could be 18, then it makes more sense to tell JoePa. It really sounds like MM didn’t do anything drastic because he wanted to look good for a chance to coach. I’m sure him and his dad figured out he wouldn’t have a chance to coach at PSU if he went straight to the police and everything came crashing down at Happy Valley because of it. BUT if he told JoePa and let the big guys handle it, then he still looks good in everyone’s eyes. Unfortunately, not everyone handles things like this unselfishly like they morally should.
by WestHallsGhost on Nov 7, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh come on
we all like to think about how we would react when confronted with a horrific situation, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of people wouldn’t do anything as far as interceding goes. If you are part of the majority, that’s great. However, it is so easy to throw out the “if I was in blank situation I would do blank.”
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
by jman07 on Nov 7, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I disagree
you see a kid who is clearly under 10 being raped and don’t even yell “What the F is going on in there?”
Reporter: Can you give us a touchdown celebration, one that you would get penalized for?
Moye: I play at Penn State. I don’t celebrate.
by psupride on Nov 7, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There are many, many
documented cases of people not saying anything. I remember reading a few months ago about a girl in Cali being gang raped and 30-50 people witnessing it before somebody finally contacted somebody and broke it up. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m saying it happens.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
Just because many people don’t do the right thing doesn’t give MM a pass. I read the GJ report in its entirety (wish I hadn’t), and If I saw that and didn’t react, I would never be able to live with myself, let alone stand on the same sideline as that guy. Don’t make excuses for MM. Thats how this whole thing got to where it is.
by ncpsu on Nov 7, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not making excuses
As the comment below me said, they ran when MM saw them. So what was MM supposed to do, run them down and question them?
I’m refraining from grabbing my pitchfork and torch. There is something to be said in the fact that neither MM nor Paterno have even been remotely accused of doing anything wrong by the prosecutors or GJ. You don’t think that if they were viewed as being complicit that they wouldn’t be getting charged too?
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
by jman07 on Nov 7, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
From my understanding of what was in the GJ report
Sandusky and the child fled when the GA found them. So the GA (Red) hears something, goes into the shower to see whats going on, catches Sandusky, who then flees.
But I agree with jman, its easy for all of us to sit here after reading a nice tidy report and say “Oh I would have jumped in and saved the day” because thats what we would all want to do. In reality, there are a lot more things going on at that moment, much of which probably wasnt clear to McQueary at the time. The shock alone of seeing a respected and revered man in the Penn State community doing something so terrible would probably be enough to make him pause and question what he saw. I’m not saying he made the right choice, but he made the choice a human being might make. At least he didnt try to cover it up or completely ignore it like other people.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I said this in another post
I hope the people who say “I would have kicked his ass” never, ever have to see what they would really do in this situation
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
I understand...
not everyone would have the courage to do something to stop the action or even call the police afterwards. But we should all agree everyone SHOULD. And I would think those of us with children and especially sons would be more prone to agree with this. Also, if Sandusky was some guy off the street that nobody knew, this would have ended long ago. But this whole thing involved power and money and prestige and people react differently than they would if those elements weren’t involved.
by WestHallsGhost on Nov 7, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh Jesus, Sandusky spoke? Out loud? To ESPN and ABC?
Come on guys.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
So I Read
wearing a PSU jacket. Have no idea what he said.
Clearly his lawyer didn’t get through to him on the number one rule when facing criminal charges-DON’T TALK TO ANYONE ABOUT THIS!
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
All he said was that he couldn't talk about it. But he was wearing a Penn State windbreaker.
I’m thoroughly disgusted.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
Thats awful
seriously, dont bring this school down anymore than you already have, asshole.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 9:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously, these perverted bastards know how to manipulate the "room".
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Nov 7, 2011 9:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is it too much to ask for ESPN to report that Gary Schultz was the head of the university's legal services and police department?
This is where the whole “the authorities weren’t informed” argument breaks down for me. Who exactly else do you have to speak with to make sure someone conducts an investigation? NOT the head of the university police?
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Nov 7, 2011 9:18 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
thought the same thing when I heard it. I was talking to one of my friends about it, and said it’s like they’re cherry-picking what to report to mislead the general public, whom might not have read (yet)/or won’t care to know what information has been released.
" When you cross that Blue Line, you are mine...Across the Blue Line, it's all football. " " And what you need to do in your life is paint Blue Lines everywhere. " - Joe Paterno 2009
by BlueWhiteLife on Nov 7, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
I think that is a very important point that is not mentioned enough
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Shorter Collyer: Schultz is a moron and is probably the worst actor in the entire perjury case.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
and unfortunately he's semi retired
so he doesnt have to endure the shame of being publicly fired. Can we bring back putting people in stocks in the middle of the town square?
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This is being overlooked
Paterno spoke with Curley and Schultz (who was head of the police department)…What more was he to do? Who in their right mind would think that the HEAD OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT wouldn’t investigate this further?
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
by jman07 on Nov 7, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No
It will be the central question in the public arena. If nothing is done after several weeks/ months/years isn’t it time to do something else? We’re not talking about shoplifting here.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
I am not saying you are incorrect.
All I meant was that in general conversation Schultz and head of UP probably won’t be in the same sentence.
10-4
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
The important question is what Paterno heard, because that’s all he knows. All he says he heard is basically “something inappropriate.” He didn’t get the detailed descriptions. So he talked to Curley and Schultz, and then didn’t hear anything about it.
I don’t get the big concern. The problem isn’t Paterno’s, because he didn’t know what the Grand Jury knew – that this needed to be investigated farther.
The people you want to be disgusted with are Curley and Schultz, and honestly, the fact that people are talking about Paterno here baffles me. Every bit of “you should’ve done more” that people have for Paterno right now should be flung onto Curley and Schultz times twenty (And Spanier, if he was informed by Curley at all, although Spanier could be forgiven if he was given a cursory summary by Curley).
You have to blame the people in charge. Have to. You can’t fault people for believing that an administration works. If you start to go down that road it leads to much worse things.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
“Something inappropriate” is something that is put in a report, not used in converation. The spectacle of Joe passing it along and then washing his hands of it is his, and the university’s big problem. Unless (and hopefully so) another side of the story emerges that is equally compelling I’m afraid that wil be the end of an era.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
this sadly is true
I really really hope Joe did more. We probably wont know until further down the road. And by then, no one will care as much as they do know.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why?
The only way this makes Joe retire is if he chooses to retire. The University can’t force him out. He did what they asked him to do.
You can say “he should have done more…” except what you’re really saying is “the University should have made him do more.” You don’t fix anything by replacing Joe. If you think Joe should’ve done more, tell the University that the policy must be more than report it to the appropriate authority.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
People are talking about Paterno...
because, let’s face it, he is the face of Penn State. And even though he is not an administrator, he has the influence (if only perceived). If this had happened within the basketball program, believe me, the media would find a way to crucify Joe. But, as I mentioned above, why couldn’t he have followed up?
by PSU Jen on Nov 7, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We don't know if he did or didn't follow up
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
by jman07 on Nov 7, 2011 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I hope it comes out
That he did. But to the casual observer, they will only read what the media prints…. I’ve already had to clarify the story to 4 people this a.m. at work. No one reads the fine print, just the headlines.
I know and I agree with you
If it comes out that he didn’t follow up, then we can question why he didn’t. But until then, to assume that he didn’t, is a leap in logic I’m not willing to make.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
by jman07 on Nov 7, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I just heard a caller on WITF (Harrisburg)
say that Scott Paterno said Joe stopped McQueary from going into details and then referred it to Curley (as we all know). I have no idea if that is true — it’s just the local NPR affiliate taking phone calls on the issue. If true, it raises the question as to why Joe would limit his knowledge of the situation.
Because
he didn’t want to hear awful, horrid, disgusting details about a close aquaintance? He heard all he needed to hear, and alerted those above him in the chain of command where they could hear the full details.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
Because Sandusky didn't work for him
Because Joe wasn’t the right person for McQueary to be talking to.
Why didn’t McQueary tell the janitor? Or the guy across the street? Or a random taxicab driver? Or call the local newspaper? Because they’re not the right people to talk to. The right person is Curley (who’s in charge of the athletic department) and Schultz (who was in charge of the police).
Keep in mind: if McQueary had shouted it to the rooftops, Sandusky could’ve just gotten away before anyone had a chance to do anything about it. You go through the appropriate authorities for a reason.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Both reasonable answers (yours and jman's)
Unfortunately, we’re seeing Joe held to a different level of accountability both here on BSD and in the media, I think because of the nature of the crime. If McQueary had walked in on a drug sale I wonder how this would all be playing out.
The problem, of course...
is that if you go and get rid of Joe, the guy you replace him with will be worse than Joe at doing all the positive things that Paterno does.
And he wouldn’t be any better than Joe at making sure these sort of things don’t happen.
So all you do is make things worse. Great.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Automatically? The next guy undoes EVERYTHING?
Wake up, please.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The next guy will be worse at holding the athletic department to a higher standard. Guaranteed.
Why? Because I have ~100+ other examples of that, and zero examples of someone holding their athletic department to a similar standard.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Would “holding the athletic department to a higher standard” include making sure there was a proper investigation of child sex abuse…or are you only concerned with making sure there are no ncaa violations….because I would love having a problem of discounted tattoos and cars over this.
by JRM397 on Nov 7, 2011 3:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
You do realize
… that the head football coach is not, in fact, in charge of investigating allegations of child sex abuse?
You know what the next guy would do? At best? The exact same thing Paterno did. At worst? Tell McQueary he doesn’t want to hear about it.
Do you know why that would be the best he’d do? Because that would be what his job tells him to do.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
And just to clarify
if it comes out one day, that Joe stopped MM because he was trying to, in some manner, protect Sandusky, then I will be the first to say Joe should be out the door yesterday. I just refuse to believe that a man who has stood on his convictions for the last 60 years would be that big of a fake. If I’m proven wrong, well then I am. But I am waiting for the whole story before condemning a man.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
by jman07 on Nov 7, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
This times a million.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
He is held to a different standard.
He’s Joe Paterno. The rest of the college coaching is denigrated for not living up to his standards. Our fans turn their noses up at Miami, Ohio State, and others because we allegedly have higher standards.
Turns out that’s not really the case, and doing the bare minimum as required by law is good enough for a way-too-large segment of our fanbase.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You do what you're supposed to do!
“Turns out that’s not really the case, and doing the bare minimum as required by law” is not a criticism!
Do you know what happens if people just always do “what they think is right”? Complete chaos. Everyone has a different idea of “what they think is right.” Hell, someone might’ve thought that McQueary should’ve gone and beaten the crap out of Sandusky. Followed him back to his house, and burned it down.
This is the slope you go down, and I’m exaggerating, but it’s still the truth. If you don’t think Paterno did enough, you don’t criticize him, you criticize the damn system.
The only way a civil society works is if people do their jobs.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Rec'd
People seem to think that Joe could have gone all Dirty Harry on Sandusky and be awarded the key to the city for it.
How do we know how much Joe knew?
There is no where that says what Joe knew about it or anything. If he saw it happen that is one thing but without seeing it personally what do you expect him to do. If someone comes to you and says hey I saw this happen would you go to the police or would you tell that person to go to the police? I am not sure what you expect someone that doesn’t see it happen to do.
Plus,
can you imagine trying to tell Joe what you saw? That would be incredibly uncomfortable.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
If you have ever worked in a postion
of being a mandated reporter, that is what you are instructed to do. I had the unfortunate experience of having to report suggested phyiscal child abuse to my manager. She was unable to let me go into details and referred me to higher ups. Her asking me questions when it’s not her job to report can essentially ruin a case against someone. Just how the process works.
by mleepsu08 on Nov 7, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
"But, as I mentioned above, why couldn’t he have followed up?"
Because it’s not his job!
Look, it may sound terrible to say that, considering what actually happened, but Joe didn’t know all of that. He’s not a cop. What could he do? He can’t get involved in the investigation, because he doesn’t have the authority.
If you even have to defend Paterno to someone, just deflect it onto Curley and Schultz. They didn’t do their job. They’re the people you blame. Maybe you blame the university’s procedures as well. But you can’t fault someone for doing exactly what he was supposed to.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
The problem ....
There is so many UN-EDUCATED MORONS in this world, it is UNBELIEVABLE!!!! Everyone wants to just spout off about this matter, and say how this person should have done this, and this person should have done that … just shut up. and let the legal system sort this out!!!
What needs to be constantly mentioned is that the STATE PROSECUTOR and/or ATTORNEY GENERAL have PRAISED what JOEPA did!!! This LARGE fact should be good enough for everyone when it comes to JOEPA’s role in this!!!!!!
by nxk146 on Nov 7, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Sorry, but this made me chuckle
There is so many UN-EDUCATED MORONS in this world . . .
Lord knows, we could all laugh a little today.
What reason would Joe have to follow up though? He is trusting that Shultz is doing his job. Was there a reason not to believe this?
Yes, in hindsight, he should have followed up. I’m sure that JoePa is sick with himself with this very thought- now that he has the same hindsight that all of us do. But lets be honest with ourselves for a second. How many people would have reported the incident to the police, and then followed up when nothing apparently came of it? I’d venture a guess at less than .01% of the population- and those would generally be people with a huge vested stake in an investigation (someone who was robbed, for example).
As it stands, Joe immediately reported the incident to the correct people. He trusted them to do their jobs. They betrayed his trust, only, how was he to know at that time, given what information was actually available to him?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I also find it crazy that because he's JoePa
he would have somehow received information on what if anything came from what Curley and Shultz found. If you report what seems to be a crime to someone or refer someone to the people that are able to do so- I would think at that point it becomes a private matter. Just because you’re “Joe” doesn’t mean you can have accuse to information that didn’t directly involve him.
by mleepsu08 on Nov 7, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That's Joe's story and.....
I have no reason not to believe it…..However, with Joe’s status, it is said that he failed to do the reporting himself although he was not the witness…..I have no axe to grind with Joe as stated above, but he is my friend and he did what he thought was right in the reporting of the situation….in hindsight, should he have confronted Sandusky and then gone to S/C/S himself? Well, he didn’t and may regret that he did not…..it will not end well whatever transpires, because Joe is a face of the PSU community, possibly, The Face…this would not be as big a deal (NO, I am not downgrading child abuse!) if this happened to parties in the Ag department.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
Should he have confronted Sandusky?
No! You do that, and you’re giving the person the ability to escape answering for what they did. Not to mention putting yourself at risk.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, there you go, but.....
a lot of people are using this to attack Joe and you and me will not change their minds.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
Of course I won’t. People who attack the most visible target instead of the people responsible are irrational anyway.
But you can’t go around thinking that any time you have concerns about something, you go and raise hell until something happens. You do that and you get all sorts of unintended consequences.
There was a procedure to be followed, and he followed it. The people to blame are Curley and Schultz, and maybe Spanier. Every bit of blame that people are trying to heap on Paterno should be heaped back on those guys.
Why? Because replacing Paterno doesn’t fix anything. The problem was the lack of effort by Schultz and Curley. They didn’t do enough. What people should be demanding is that whoever replaces them be more thorough. Not talking about Paterno. That’s a waste of effort.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
But according to them
Paterno holds(held?) more power than what Curley or Schultz does. The same people that are saying this are probably the same people that claim he is “figurehead”. So the man that doesn’t even have full control of the football team should have full control of his boss?
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
by jman07 on Nov 7, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Again, they're irrational
That’s why I don’t think Paterno will be forced out because of this. Spanier and the trustees aren’t irrational.
Plus they know that getting rid of Paterno won’t fix anything. Jeez, if you honestly think that you just have to get rid of everyone even remotely associated with things, you might as well burn down Lasch as well.
That makes more sense than getting rid of Paterno.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
With the frequency at which they tear down and rebuild at U.P.
I don’t think it’s too far fetched to believe once all this goes through the courts that we’ll see that building torn down.
Anyway, the flashlights eat our human power grids, our souls if you will. So i destroyed them, and if a few precious panties were burnt or soiled in the reckoning then so be it
by millzners on Nov 7, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
See, this is what I mean
You say this, but it’s irrational. What it takes is a proper response from the University. Proper meaning people coming out and saying “this is what happened, this is what went wrong, and this is what we’re doing to fix it.”
Why should the University waste their time trying to placate irrational people?
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Cause the shower in that building is not...
…now and forever the shower that Sandusky diddled the kid in? Really?
Works on contingency? No, money down!
And what, let's build a giant building over the HUB Lawn?
Seriously, people died there and they didn’t get rid of the HUB Lawn.
I dunno, maybe you think they should’ve gotten rid of that, too. But tragedies happen. Getting rid of places so we forget about them is just about the stupidest thing you could do.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You know what's not there anymore?
The place on the HUB lawn where the shooter was.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Great...
So we forget the person who did the actions, and not the person who died.
This makes TOTAL sense.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
wait..
Actually, it kinda does. Never mind that.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but Pattee Library is still there
and the stacks are still there, despite the murder that occurred way back when.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
Good call
I always forget about that. The HUB Lawn shooting is kinda burned into my brain since I was there when it happened (and I knew people involved).
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Crazy Jill was always a good waitress at the Diner.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Also a murder around 1987
Speculation is that it was a serial killer just passing through State College.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
jesse. is right
The building is now a monstrous symbol.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
by SubLime on Nov 7, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So we should disembowl the Second Mile as well?
That’s an even more monstrous symbol. That’s where he gained the trust that he used for corrupt and evil purposes of raping little boys.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
Change its name for starters.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Nov 7, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I would be fine with this.
Were it to go away a new and untarnished organization could fill the void.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
That’s what the Amish did in that horrific shooting.
First, they forgave the perpetrator (who was now dead)
And second they tore down (not burned down) the school.
Not saying we should tear down Lasch. But it does get rid of the horrific memories. Just think about “guided tours” of Lasch….“Oh yeah, that is the infamous shower”!
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
Schultz's Police Training
What was it? Did he ever attend and graduate from a police academy? Did he take annual follow up training as is required by law? I am an attorney in NJ and PA and if I failed to take CLE courses my license to practice law would be suspended.
As I understand he was a VP who supervised the University Police who also had some involvement in HR.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
That's exactly who he is.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
In Other Words
No formal law enforcement training whatsoever. May have had less training on child endangerment than I have had ( I was a Cub Scout leader for 4 years and such training was MANDATED by the BSA.). Unbelieveable.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
Right, but the president isn't required to have formal military training.
It’s not completely unusual, nor is it inappropriate. University Police has to answer to someone administratively.
My biggest issue is that Schultz has the power to direct his people to investigate the matter and obviously failed to do so.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Nov 7, 2011 9:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Just like a Mayor in a city/boro who oversees the Police Dept
No need to be act 120 certified.
He also has not ability to arrest/etc
May no act.................
One doesn't need formal training to do the right thing or at least take steps to protect the vulnerable
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
by JuniataMan on Nov 7, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
On a side note:
Do we start to lose players / future players because of this? Also does the NCAA suspend the football program or do anything like that?
I don't think you're likely to see NCAA intervention.
It’s something I’d like to look at in more depth this week, but this isn’t a sports eligibility issue, which is what the NCAA is in place to deal with. This is a university administration issue that is tangentially related to the football program.
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
Very doubtful that this is a FB related problem....
or the NC2A’s……do we start to lose players? Why not. The program right now, because of this is taking a hit.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
It looks more likely now than ever that Joe...
…probably won’t be on as HC next season. That will be the driving force behind lost commitments.
At this point,
I’d certainly think twice about sending my kid to play any sport at Penn State.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Or a summer camp. We get a lot of recruits who came to summer camp which allowed the coaches a first hand evaluation.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
by JuniataMan on Nov 7, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah.
Camp is a little creepy to begin with. Now add this in…oy vez.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, this is worse IMO
because no student athletes were involved whatsoever
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Nov 7, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No offense, but oh please. You might as well rethink your decision to let your child walk out the front door this morning in that case.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
by 06Lion on Nov 7, 2011 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I've seen you do this a couple of times in this thread
This is a complex issue, and people are going to have differing opinions. Calling everything you disagree with “idiotic” is not helpful.
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
by DrewRusse on Nov 7, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Luckily
I haven’t called everything I disagreed with idiotic, just the posts which appear that way to me..
I don't mind if you call me idiotic.
My brilliance can be difficult to discern.
Nevertheless, I’m basically always right, so you may want to consider getting on board.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
Except when
you lined up in an illegal formation.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I would never.
It’s the dumbest penalty to take. I can always see it coming, but no matter how loudly I scream, that fifth guy never gets up on the line.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
I don't have kids.
But really people? You can’t admit that parents are going to think twice? The athletic department is in disarray, and its moral integrity is highly questionable right now. If I’d be reluctant to send a student athlete to Ohio State or USC, I’d sure as hell be reluctant to send him or her to Penn State right now.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
people kept sending their kids to Michael Jackson's house
There are plenty of people who will do what they think will make their kid rich/and or famous
HOWEVER, so many organizations,charities and camps do nothing but good work. To stop supporting them would be a shame.
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
Student athletes are going to have their own hangups
If you were a 5 star RB, would you want to go to a school with this stigma on it? If you think jokes from adults in the next few weeks/months is going to be rough, imagine how your high school friends would spin this.
by swiggy04 on Nov 7, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My Answers
Question 1-Who cares if we lose players? Last of my concerns.
Question 2-Have any NCAA rules been violated? I honestly don’t know the answer to that question.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
All I know is that.....
my involvement in this tragedy has made me physically ill….my only hope is that all involved get their fair due and that Jerry is put in jail and the “proper” people resign—-let the chips fall where they may and I hope that no plea-bargaing or deals are made no matter whom it may involve…..I forever stand by my sig….No Sh*t, No mercy in this debacle.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Nov 7, 2011 9:47 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
They need to all resign very soon. Paterno included.
No amount of lawyerish “we did what our legal responsibility requires” washes this away. If these guys love Penn State as much as they profess, they will get out immediately and let the University and football program get a fresh start as soon as practically possible.
Sorry, folks. They all have to go.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I agree....short and sweet as much as I love Joe.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Nov 7, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That's what I expect to see after this year
I think we will see a whole new football program after this year. The next coach will not be hired within.
You're a lawyer.
So am I. Joe Paterno didn’t meet the standards of what our profession requires. I spend a lot of time talking to social workers, all of whom are disgusted. He didn’t meet the ethical standards that their profession requires. I’m trying, but I can’t get around this.
I respect how difficult the situation that Sandusky put them in was. I truly, honestly do. As it relates to Paterno, I’m willing to wait a little longer for information to come out. But right now, and it kills me, I think this the end.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Would you care to elaborate
on that really serious charge that he didn’t even do what was legally required?
Joe Paterno is not a lawyer.
Nor is he a social worker, ergo, the rules of those professions do not apply to him. I never said he broke a law. I said that certain other people have ethical obligations imposed on them professionally, that he would not have met.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Joe staying on for...
…however many years after this doesn’t erase it’s memory. It will live with him forever. Because of that, he needs to retire after this season so that Penn State can move forward in the right direction.
by TheSwish on Nov 7, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is my thought....
The whole staff has to move on. I am sorry but for PSU to be able to move on everyone must go.
by jetskijoe on Nov 7, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Big Red is gone.
Vandy, LJsr get jobs somewhere else. JayPa puts in for the head coaching job at some high school and gets rejected.
by TheSwish on Nov 7, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My Penn State degree is worth less today than it was Friday
and the University needs to stop the bleeding immediately. If the BOT doesn’t fire everyone tangentially involved, they are not doing their jobs to maintain the reputation of the university and the value of my diploma.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Nov 7, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
yeah it's bad but
it’s not like someone is going to turn you down for a job now because you went to PSU.
Agree, but this makes the value of the diploma less...
It is a downward spiral. Fewer people send thier SATs to Penn State, fewer will apply, fewer donations to the school. It is going to get worse, and it will for a long while. I suspect that for years there will be inappropriate jokes on Family Guy that will continue to diminish the Penn State brand. This is what Penn State will be known for in the popular culture for years to come, much as the shooting at VA Tech has defined/changed what people think of that institution.
by dontcallmescooter on Nov 7, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think no less of Va Tech
and your comment is on the whole way off base when it comes to PSU.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
The University covered up a child molestation case.
Penn State had a reputation for integrity and character. Now the first thing I had to do today was explain to my Ex-Wife what the hell happened. Every single call I had with an attorney today involved me having to explain WTF is going on in State College.
If you are vocal member of the Penn State community, I have news for you, you’re connected to a child molestation case. You’re not going to lose your job, and to the extent anybody can get job at this point, Penn Staters will still get hired.
Those guys hurt the University and everybody associated with it.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
no offense to you
but I think this is absolute bullshit.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions 14 recs
the degree being worth less that is
just to clarify
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
Yeah,
I think that may be an overreaction. It occurred to me too, but I don’t think potential employers or whoever are going to start discriminating against Penn State graduates. And if they do, they probably had preconceived notions.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
front cover of the free daily paper in DC (that's on every street corner, metro, bus), etc
has a big picture of Paterno and talks about “sex abuse” and his “top assistant”.
The value of my BA is somewhat dependent on PSU’s reputation. Penn State’s reputation has been deeplly sullied; therefore, my degree is less valuable.
In other words, part of the value of the PSU degree (and any degree for that matter) is the value of the PSU brand (or the Harvard brand, Berkeley brand, etc). The PSU brand has never been this badly tarnished before.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Nov 7, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly correct.
If an employer sees “Penn State” on a resume right now, their initial thought is going to be about…this. The coverage is too wide and detailed of the mess. The PSU graduate is starting at a small disadvantage with every prospective employer, silly as it may seem.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly incorrect.
Not that I think you are capable of rational discussion at this point, but if an employer did that, they aren’t worht my time.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You're crazy.
I feel that I almost have to make a public statement disavowing this.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Then you obviously
Don’t have much intestinal fortitude or pride.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
So you are telling me that if I am looking for a job right now
I should not tell them I have a 4 year degree from Penn State. I would have a better chance at getting the job if I didn’t go to penn state?
no
the point is simply that last Monday, if you told someone you graduated from Penn State they probably thought of the classic football uniforms, someone they know who graduated from there, and/or Joe Paterno.
The first association today for anyone who follows the news is pedophilia. Does it materially affect your job prospects, no, probably not. But that doesn’t mean that your degree isn’t less valuable.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Nov 7, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My degree is only less valuable
If it affects my current or future salary, or job prospects. This tragedy, does not.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I disagree on both counts.
I don’t think most people jump immediately to college football when you tell them where you went to college. Yes, the prospects increase when you say you went to Penn State or Ohio State (vs an Ivy or something), and the prospects probably increase during football season. But generally, college is college, and people don’t really care. And if it’s a prospective employer, either the college you went to meets their expectations for the job or it doesn’t. Nobody who was hiring engineers from Penn State last week isn’t this week because of Jerry Sandusky. Does this hurt Penn State’s “brand?” Sure. For a few days weeks or months. But it’s been around for a long time, and we’re talking about a scandal that has nothing to do with academics. Let’s maintain some perspective here.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
sorry to say it
but i believe spak is spot on here. he is not, i believe, suggesting that employers will start turning down PSU grads b/c of this. he is saying that the sterling and unblemished brand equity that came with a Penn State degree is gone for our lifetime.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
by PSU_Buch on Nov 7, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
exactly
i have always found that the PSU degree carries with it a certain cache having to do with principled leadership or something. People associate the university with “success iwth honor” and doing the right thing. Or rather, people did associate the university with those things. Hard to imagine them still doing so after this.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Nov 7, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Because I went to Penn State
means so much less today than it did Friday that it makes me sick.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
It means less to me too.
But I doubt it means less to most other people.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Ok
So you get asked the question in the interview about this. You respond with ‘Its absolutely terrible that someone could do this. The fact that he was affiliated with Penn State sickens me. I hope he sits in a cell for the rest of his natural born life, left only to his thoughts.’
By responding in such a way (a way that we are all responding with, by the way) you uphold success and honor in a very real and meaningful way.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Who the hell would ask about this during a job interview?
Run.
by Bob Sacamano on Nov 7, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
thats my point
This ‘our degree is worth less’ is reactionary hyperbole.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
This is so easy. People need to take off their blue & white glasses. I’m not saying anyone did or didn’t report anything, that’s not for us to figure out. But whoever had knowledge of this and didn’t report it to police should be gone. Simple as that.
by gsmith140 on Nov 7, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Bullshit man..
your degree and the hardwork you put in to get it didn’t rape children.
by Artiefufkin10 on Nov 7, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Yeah, I should say I don’t really think my degree is worth less, although I’m ashamed of the university. What I agree with is that everyone who had knowledge should be canned.
by gsmith140 on Nov 7, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm ashamed of...
That creep who abused children, and he—pains me to say this—went to Penn State and played for Penn State and coached at Penn State. I’m pissed beyond belief and ashamed of Curley and Schultz for not reporting it. I’m pissed at Spanier for not pursuing it further.
I don’t know what MM told Joe, what MM saw, what Joe did beyond the reporting that’s out there, etc. I’m sad about the whole situation. I bleed blue and white. I love this university and the football team. i’m a season ticket holder. I’m a proud alum. I feel pride when I sing the alma mater at games. I don’t want a man I admire to go down like this. It makes me so damn sad. I bet he is furious with Curley and Schultz for not doing more.
Beyond PSU, I’m pissed at Second Mile for also sweeping this under the rug, because they did. And I’m pissed at the high school for allowing that creep’s behavior to go on and reporting it only after they had a complaint from a parent. They admitted to knowing about his suspicous behavior. They should have seen it, even more so than Joe, who wasn’t around him especially when he was around kids.
I’m pissed that I was at the Alamo Bowl in the same hotel as the team, which means somewhere in that hotel that bastard was threatening a kid. God that makes me ill. I’m sick that I cheered and stood for that SOB when he came down to breakfast the next morning and that I was sad he was retiring. If only we all knew.
But I will tell you that I still love Joe and I still love Penn State. And my degree means something.
by psueagle on Nov 7, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Beyond PSU, I’m pissed at Second Mile for also sweeping this under the rug, because they did. And I’m pissed at the high school for allowing that creep’s behavior to go on and reporting it only after they had a complaint from a parent. They admitted to knowing about his suspicous behavior. They should have seen it, even more so than Joe, who wasn’t around him especially when he was around kids.
This. So much this. They were in a position to potentially do much more about this, much earlier, than those at Penn State.
Fire Dan Snyder
Mine's not
I worked my butt off for my degree and have put it to good use. My daughter worked her butt off for her degree from Penn State, which she will have very soon. My son’s dream is to go to Penn State. I will not stop him from going. I have not been fired by my clients today because my degree is from Penn State.
by psueagle on Nov 7, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
And I might add
At least one of my clients has a degree from Penn State and she still has a job.
Nobody is saying your going to get fired.
But every person I know, up to and including my ex-wife is asking me about this. I’d rather not be standing in Court explaining to my colleagues why a University that I have been very vocal in my support of for a very long time is embroiled in a child sex abuse scandal.
They fully understand that I didn’t do it. But the fact is I’m fairly closely associated with the people that did. And that sucks.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So far only 1 person mentioned it to me today
and it wasnt even that bad. I live in VA though, so I’m escaping the brunt of it. I did get a text from my brother saturday night, with which I will respond to him with a quick punch in the kidneys.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
That's how I feel too.
I wear it on my sleeve, so I’m sort of a target. But I’m catching shit from friends. It’s not malicious, and I don’t think anyone’s opinion of me is changing, nor do I think anyone is going to go home thinking about it. And people from outside of the PSU community aren’t pissing away 3 hours this morning arguing about this on a message board. It’s certainly tough for me not to take all this personally, but I don’t think this will be as damaging to the university’s reputation as it seems right now.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
Me Too
I’ve already gotten an e-mail about it from a co-worker. It was very cordial and sympathetic, but at the same time, I wish that I wasn’t in the position to have had received it. I’ve been applying to a ton of jobs since the spring and have been on seven interviews (with another one on Thursday) all in-house at a prestigious (and incredibly pretentious) university and in all of these interviews I’ve boasted about being a Penn Stater, but I think that I will alter my interview strategy this Thursday in light of all of this.
Run.
by Bob Sacamano on Nov 7, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
People are calling to check on me.
Like somebody died.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Likewise.
And they are right to do so. I am devastated. My school and my home are a national laughingstock, and the once-revered Penn State name is badly and irrevocably damaged.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
by PSU_Buch on Nov 7, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I am somewhat too
I dont brag about it or anything, but people certainly know. Dealing with my family will probably be bad. Hopefully they realize how much this sucks for me and just dont say anything.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
I had exactly one person come up to me and talk about it
though I did have two separate friends contact me on Saturday—one a Buckeye, and one a Hawkeye. Both were great, surprisingly.
Fire Dan Snyder
I went to a party in Baton Rouge for the OMG game Saturday
and spent a good hour answering questions about this.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
by SubLime on Nov 7, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was out of the office today
but heard via text that two co-employees want to talk with me about this. It will have to be over lunch-not enough time while in the office itself.
tO$U sucks-ALWAYS the right choice!
After taking a few days to consider everything
I agree with you. I don’t see how a single person who has their name listed in any of these preceedings should go on with a career at Penn State. This is the worst thing that has ever happened at Penn State, and the magnitude of this situation isn’t even capped yet. There are a list of people who had a moral and legal obligation to do something and each of them failed in one regard or another to fullfill that obligation. We are here now because none of them had the courage to do what was right.
Anyway, the flashlights eat our human power grids, our souls if you will. So i destroyed them, and if a few precious panties were burnt or soiled in the reckoning then so be it
by millzners on Nov 7, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
As the editor of this blog, Chris
If it’s your conviction that Joe needs to go, you need to exercise your influence, make that a front page post, and state your case.
by PSU Mudder on Nov 7, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'll disagree on that point.
Chris can put whatever he wants up here, and he’s done an exceptional job with the coverage. I don’t think it’s imperative that he speak for the entire masthead
You without me is like Harold Melvin without the Blue Notes . . . you'll never go platinum.
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Nov 7, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That's a good point.
I think they should all be fired. I’ve said it here multiple times. I posted it in response to Spencer’s amazingly lucid post over at SBNation.com. I’ll say it to any person, reporter, or radio station who asks.
It’s a difficult task to not let this take over the entire site. There are players, students, and thousands of other people at Penn State who had nothing to do with this. The football team is 8-1 and has a chance to win the conference. But at the same time, this is most certainly the biggest story to ever hit Penn State, and by the time we’re done it may be the worst scandal to ever hit college athletics. It’s a delicate balancing act that won’t get any easier as the week progresses.
We’re all in shock. Like any horrific crime, nobody ever thinks it could happen to their friend, their neighborhood, their university. And the nature of the charges and the apparent cover-up is so graphic and galling that we have no choice but to let emotion rule a significant part of the day.
I’ve tried my best to be objective and fair in the front page posts. Some people think I’m being unfair, and they’re loyal to Joe Paterno and Penn State no matter what, even if their their definition of “loyalty” is wholly different than mine. That’s fine. I can say that I’ve received a boatload of personal emails from readers, fans from other blogs, friends, and family members. Every one of them has been complimentary. So I’m pretty comfortable with our coverage of this so far, even if the subject matter contains the most uncomfortable, creepy allegations one can ever read.
And once again, I think that just about everyone is being pretty level-headed about this, considering the alleged crimes and parties involved. Nobody has been banned, or even warned. I hope this relative civility continues.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Coverage has been excellent so far
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The thing that bothers me
Is that this is a terrible scandal involving college athletics and Penn State. It sickens me. But I think this is an even worse scandal for the Second Mile. The founder of a charity meant to help poor youth used it as a breeding ground for his perverted sexual deviance.
The fact that the AD and UP police covered this up is also sickening. Its almost as sickening as the actual crimes themselves.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
We Are.....
starting to focus steadily on who should retire, resign, etc over this debacle when MrsPharmer reminds me that the son-ofa-bitch that is resposible for this mess is hardly being mentioned and may be in the process of preparing a defense that says he did nothing and wants charges thrown-out. I cannot wait until the trial starts(please God, no plea bargaining) and the real truth comes out. Let the LAW take its course and let the chips fall where they may. BTW, when pedophiles are incarcerated, can anyone tell me what the cons usually do to them? Pray for prison time for Jerry. Hey lets make T-shirts!!
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
Amazing
That everyone is focusing on people who didn’t necessarily do the best thing, and not the real criminal.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think because people are generally in agreement about Sandusky,
but not about everyone else.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
Still no excuse IMO
What we should really be focusing on is hoping the kids get the help they need, letting the criminal justice system do it’s job with who they charged, and learning how to better identify these people and let the authorities know qucklly.
But it just looks likepeople are here to use this disgraceful act to further agendas.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, but this is the internet.
Why do you expect rationality here? LOL!
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
I don't even expect it
with people I deal with in real life. Apart from a very few.
Seconded
What we should really be focusing on is hoping the kids get the help they need
Now what do we, as the Penn State community need to do to make this happen?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
http://www.heathevans.org/Home.aspx
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
And
Making sure that a complaint lodged by a University employee about observed sexual misconduct can’t be buried, by, y’know, anyone.
I still have no clue how in the hell there isn’t some form they had to file to HR or something. What I really, really want to know is regardless of what Tim Curley and Schultz heard, why the hell didn’t they report it to authorities?!
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Chris is post his opinion, just like everyone else on here...nothing more or less
May no act.................
I disagreed with you yesterday.
I agree with you today.
I have spent far too much time analyzing the possibilities. But the reality is that Joe fulfilled his legal duty, but he did not fulfill his moral duty. This season should be his last. Give him the dignity of resigning at season’s end, but under no uncertain terms make it clear that no one man is bigger than the program, and a step farther, the University itself.
My heart goes out to Mike McQ, but not nearly as much as it goes out to the victims. Like Joe, Mike McQ fulfilled his legal duty, but not his moral duty. He, too, must resign.
Curley needs to be fired. He failed, and he deserves no dignified exit. Schultz needs to be fired, tarred, and feathered for the same reason.
In my comment to the David Jones fanshot, I questioned whether Joe’s desire to stay on board as coach this long, despite at times appearing no more than a figurehead, was a calculated decision. The more I think about it, and I may be borderline insane, I think my hypothesis contains a lot of truth. Linky In hindsight, Joe probably recognizes that he failed, even if at the time he thought what he did was sufficient. And I really think this is his way of atoning to the program and University he loves as a member of his family.
That or I am a hapless romantic and drink much too much blue Koolaid.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Nov 7, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Your theory is a lot less crazy
Than a lot of crap people are spewing, here and everywhere else.
Funny, that's kind of my father's theory.
He thinks Paterno is going to take as much of the heat for this as possible to give the next administration a better chance at a new start.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Pretty sure Joe will fall on the PSU sword and bleed Blue/White...
and then the program will move on…
Fair or not is another discussion
May no act.................
I continue to disagree about Paterno
There is some debate over what he could have/should have done, but the fact remains that he is the one prominent figure in this whole mess who’s done the right thing from the start, and with all the other PSU officials digging in for a defense, Joe is being commended for his cooperation with the prosecution.
That being said, the question of whether or not he should retire will be moot. From Scott Paterno’s description, this mess has taken the heart out of Joe; I think he’ll struggle to make it to the end of the season.
ACCEPTS THE PAYPAL
Hello, everybody, coach get old, the new coach approaching, click in.
Welcome to http://www.pennlive.com
by newenglandnittanylion on Nov 7, 2011 10:49 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
Legally, yes
Morally, still in question. And we may never know if he acted morally correct or not, hence making speculation either way dangerous.
I agree completely
I understant why the idiots on the radio and the news media are going for blood so fast, but some of the people around here amaze me.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If one of your kids was the victim
would you think that Joe Paterno was blameless? The most powerful person by a mile in Centre County was told about sex abuse and he did not make the problem go away.
The only person that has the ability to hold their head up high after this is McQueary in my opinion.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Nov 7, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's bull
He isn’t Batman, by himself he couldn’t have stopped it.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
He did the least required by law
That is not the standard I apply to Joe Paterno or anyone in a leadership position at PSU.
He may not have been able to have stopped Sandusky by himself, but he could have been more diligent and forceful in dealing with the situation.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Nov 7, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why the hell is this a criticism?
What’s “the most” required by law? Going out and dragging Sandusky to the police? Oh wait, that’s against the law.
He’s a freaking football coach. He’s not the most powerful person in Centre County. How do I know? Because he went to the guys above him, who actually do have authority to handle this.
He may be the most respected man in Centre County, which makes what Curley and Schultz did even worse – because they buried a problem that Paterno brought them rather than dealing with it.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 9 recs
You are right
He followed the law, Sandusky was not an employee of him, which is why i personally think Paterno will become less and less prominent in this issue as time progresses.
The moral implications are the once that have been debated here, and we may never know the answers.
by STU Boy on Nov 7, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Could Joe Paterno have had Tim Curley or Schultz fired?
Almost definitely…could they have had Paterno fired — I think they tried once and failed. Org charts are not the ultimate determination of power.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Nov 7, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
See third sentence.
Paterno may be the most respected man. Which is why he could assert that respect and have someone forced out.
You’re confusing respect and authority. Joe commands just about everyone’s respect. That doesn’t mean he has authority over everyone.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
He isn’t Batman
You don’t know that. YOU DON’T KNOW THAT.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Ya..
Wait for all the facts to come in..
by archerbullseye on Nov 7, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
He should have fired the guy. He WAS the HC right?
And then he should have reported the findings to the police. NOT the campus police. Your making a lame excuse for a guy that should have gone much further.
by burmbuster on Nov 7, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And your missing quite a few of the facts
He WAS NOT the coach of Sandusky at the time of the 2002 allegations. Sandusky had been retired for 3 years at that point and only had the access to university facilities that he had, because of his emeritus status, which Joe had no control over.
Campus police ARE police.
And Sandusky was not his employee.
You really need to read up on this before posting this crap.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That's one aspect of the story that still blows me away in people's reactions
In some minds, Joe Paterno went from one of the most powerful people in the state (and almost certainly the most powerful in Centre County) to a helpless cog in a machine.
Again, Paterno isn’t a criminal. He’s not the most evil figure in this case by a long shot — not even close.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
"helpless cog in a machine"?
That’s a bit of rhetoric.
He’s a football coach. That’s what he always has been. I think he’s the most powerful person with regards to Penn State football in Centre County. But the people who thought he’s the most powerful person in Centre County are the ones who think that football is what life revolves around.
He can be both powerful and a cog in a machine. The two aren’t exclusive.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
my only problem with the whole Cog in the machine thing
and peoples complaints about the system and protocol, etc. is that these things exist for a reason. We have them there to protect innocent people from being accused of a heinous crime they may not have committed.
Imagine if it turned out Sandusky didnt do the things he was accused of doing (and at that point, for Joe Paterno, all he was brought was an accusation, not evidence) yet Joe made it his personal mission to have him persecuted for the crime. He would have ruined another mans entire life because he didnt follow the protocol that was set forth. Joe did what he was supposed to and went to the appropriate people, and those people failed. Perhaps there were more things he could have done, and more pressure he could have applied, but that presents a slippery slope, even if in the end it would have turned out to be justifyable.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
As someone else pointed out...
Scott Paxson comes to mind.
It’s easy to say “it’s not the same, these were kids!” and it’s true, but if the system, as set up, requires people to go above and beyond what they’re supposed to do, it’s screwed up.
Is anyone blaming Mike McQueary’s father here? He also knew. He could’ve gone to the police. No, people are just blaming Paterno because they think he’s some sort of godlike authority, and he’s not. He directed McQueary to the proper authorities, who buried it.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
That why I dont really want to do the "should have done more" game
we’re all looking back with perfect 20/20 hindsight and all the facts laid out before us like some TV Drama vacuum and making judgements on people, when at the time, those people had more emotions and confusion affecting their decisions, with probably less information to work with.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Let's be real
If McQueary had just gone directly to the police or directly to Curley, Joe would have been less than a cog in this. Joe’s part in this was so, so, so small, it’s because of the circumstances, not that he made himself that way. If this was a football issue he would be the machine, that it was his graduate assistant only made it vaguely his business. If McQueary had his own initiative Joe could have been bypassed completely.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If anything, you have it backwards
Even if Joe went to the police and told them “someone told me they witnessed x crime,” that wouldn’t be a report they’d act on, as it’s hearsay; if anything, they’d ask to speak to the witness themselves. If McQueary, on the other hand, went to the police and said “I witnessed x crime,” that’s the sort of thing they could and would investigate.
Of course, Joe made sure McQueary did this, by arranging the meeting between McQueary and Schultz.
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by newenglandnittanylion on Nov 7, 2011 11:10 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 5 recs
I disagree with this
I don’t understand the logic in MM holding his head high, but JoePa not being able to. If anyone should have continued to follow up, shouldn’t it be the eye witness? But instead, the advisor to the eye witness is somehow more accountable than the witness? Both of whom were trusting the authorities to do their job?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
MM was a kid.
Joe Paterno had the power to do whatever he wanted. That’s the difference.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What could he have done?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
exactly
MM was actually a cog in the machine, and one that did his job.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Nov 7, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That’s a kid compared to JoePa, Curley and Schultz. And a GA with no pwere or influence.
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
by PaJoe on Nov 7, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But
It doesn’t negate that he has the same moral and civic duties as Joe, or any others involved. He could have reported it to the state college police when nothing came about.
He may not have the same politcal influence as the others involved, but he does have the eye witness acount
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah
Compare his age to everyone else he worked with. A kid.
by STU Boy on Nov 7, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And old enough to know what to do
Just like the rest of them.
And confronted with seeing a PSU legend allegedly committing a heinous act
Then being faced with the prospect of submarining Joe F’ing Paterno by going direction to the police?
Hey, everyone in this case could have and should have done more, but McQueary is the absolute last person I have a problem with, among the people involved.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I can't imagine the position he was in.
Well I can, and it was tough. He could have said nothing. When Sandusky was eventually caught what was he going to do, say MM say me do it 2002?
The guy had his first real job and say possibly the second most respected man at Penn State molesting a kid, then had to the he first most respected man at Penn State about it. He is the only one that could have done nothing and got away with it. He didn’t and that counts a lot for me.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
agreed
my assumption is that there were others — probably a freshman equipment manager or two — that saw similar things over the years and never acted, which is one of the reasons why these crimes continued.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Bu that is because
You have an irrational hate for JoePa and want him remvoed and are using this to try and get that aim. Really freaking sick.
Huh?
How would it have submarined Joe Paterno to go to the police about the actions of some guy who hasn’t worked with Joe Paterno for 3 years?
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Because
It was Joe’s longtime friend and co-worker. Jesse. keeps writing it, but I think people are missing just how big of a deal Sandusky was
by STU Boy on Nov 7, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't see how that makes a difference
Lots of people work with guys and are friends with people who later turn out to be complete creeps. It happens.
It’d be great if creeps had a giant “I AM A CREEP” sign on their back, but they don’t. They look like everyone else.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And this isn't snarky
I really want to know what he could have done, within his legal bounds. Everyone seems to be saying that Joe should have done something but don’t say what that something was.
I agree, he does have influence. And is the most respected man in Centre County. But what could he have done to fulfill his moral obligations within the law?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
He could have call the State Police. Or CYF.
He could have. There are reasons he didn’t, but he could have.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree
He could have directed McQueary that direction. He, himself, could not have.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
You are wrong.
I’m sorry but you are. He could have called. The voracity of the nature of his testimony, hearsay in this case, is not a relevant consideration. Joe Paterno absolutely could have called the police. Anonymously even, and they would have investigated.
Saying he couldn’t have called is kidding yourself. Sorry.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
ok
You’re right, from a literally standpoint. He could have called himself. But, how is that any different than advising an eyewitness to go to the police, and knowing that it was reported?
What more does that accomplish? Joe would have been right to assume that MM would have made both Curley and Shultz aware that he had gone to Joe, and that Joe was aware of the situation.
He also trusted them to do the right thing. He had no reason to believe that the situation wasn’t in the proper hands.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
If you call CYF and make a child abuse allegation.
They are legally obligated to investigated. Even if it’s total bullshit. You don’t even have to give your name. That’s what it accomplishes.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Great!
Then that should be part of the Penn State policies.
I didn’t know that. Do you think everyone else does just because you do?
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
That's right
And now if this happens to me, and I don’t do it, you can blame me.
But beforehand? Saying “I just did what I thought was the appropriate thing to do” is a perfectly fine thing to say.
I have no problem with Paterno not wanting to get personally involved in this. It’s not his job, and there are people whose job it supposedly is.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Also
He also trusted them to do the right thing. He had no reason to believe that the situation wasn’t in the proper hands.
I believe this is true, but you asked what more he could have done. A telephone call, it would have taken 10 minutes.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
I agree with you that there was more he could have done
But I’m not ready to hang full blame on him. Maybe I should have said ‘should’.
I think the bottom line is that we are looking at this in hindsight. Also, its easy to imagine what we, ourselves would have done in that situation. Its much more difficult to do it.
My point is that this is an extremely complex issue. We are dealing with the civic and moral responsibility of an observer of an observer. One who has shown in 85 years through everything that he has done that he lives by a moral code higher than almost all of us could hope to aspire to.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This is a question that I don't know the answer to
Since this happened on UP, doesn’t he need to contact them first, then it’s their decision to bring in the State College Police help? Or am I wrong?
I think thats correct
They are pretty territorial about incidents on UP
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
If you were his counsel
Would you have advised him to do anything more than report the incident to the proper authority and let the matter play out in the University’s legal system?
I asked this yesterday, and if any of the other legal professionals on the board want to chime in, I’d be happy to hear your thoughts….
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
I would have told him to contact Children and Youth Services.
I’ve given that advice several times.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
And seriously...
…without hesitation that would have been my advice.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Given the other people involved in the situation, he may as well have been a clueless freshman equipment manager.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Spider absolutely has more sway in that organization than a GA.
“kid” was used rhetorically to describe his level of influence in the situation.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
28
He was a grown ass man.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
you are a lawyer, correct?
A crime has been reported, maybe about a coworker, you assisted in the reporting but didn’t witness, only directed someone properly. Do you honestly believe the police or people in charge are going to break proper protocol and keep you informed of the investigation? Until charges are filed the public rarely has any idea some investigations are actually happening. IE the 1998 investigation. Who, legally had the right to know any of that and would it not actually be illegal and possibly libelous for someone to pass that information on? If I want to know if my son is being investigated for something, do you think they are going to tell me unless they want info from me? I have no right to anything even if it is my son being investigated. What direction could joe have gone?
My grammer skills need improved.
by BMAN13 on Nov 7, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It is not libelous to report a suspicion of child abuse.
It would be libelous if he printed in the news paper as fact, to intentionally and maliciously defame his character. If it is revealed that Joe Paterno called CYF, he’s fine by me.
After that, no, I don’t think the police will tell you anything. But to never ask the person who reported the incident to you, or the person you reported it to another question? This wasn’t a hundred dollars taken out of a locker.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
And I'm not trying to be a dick here.
I’m actually concerned at this point.
If you suspect that a child is being abused, call your local Children and Youth Services Office. They will look into it. They are required to look into it. You will not be arrested or charged if your suspicion is unfounded provided you are acting in good faith. It is not liable. It doesn’t matter if your information is based on hearsay.
Let the lesson of this whole terrible fucking mess be if you suspect a child is being abused call the proper authority yourself. Don’t run it through committee, just fucking do it.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
My feeling on this is
Is that McQueary and/or Joe, may not have been trained in such things as to call the Children and Youth Services Office. First reaction is call the police, which was essentially done in calling Schultz. These two men do not work regularly around children. I would guess that 99% of their daily contact comes from people over the age of 18. Higher ups who deal more with HR matters, such as Schultz or Curley I feel should be trained in such things, and if they were, that CYS was not called is on them entirely.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Serious question
What can they do that the police department can’t? Do they have better resources or something?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
CYF is who you call when you suspect abuse or neglect.
The police is who you call to report a crime. In this instance there is no difference because both occurred. In this instance, CYF would have reported it to the UP Police, not the generic administrator that oversaw it, like an actual cop. And they would have followed up on it. That’s their job.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
In fairness, jesse,
whether an actual cop would have followed up sufficiently is as speculative as most other points we’re discussing here.
Even hindsight is 20/60 sometimes.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
I can't control for that.
But this got covered up because it never got out of the University. The second it got reported to outside authorities it was over.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
I have to disagree with that based on the history
The State College police handled the 1998 incident and nothing came of it either. Who’s to say that they were going to do anything more this time? Maybe they would have, maybe not.
So they contact UP Police...
Either A) they contact Schultz directly and are told ’we’re handling it’, or B) the detective with whom they speak realizes this is top-level stuff and runs it up the flagpole to Schultz…
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
But, with jesse's point considered,
the more who know within the ranks, the lower chance it dies in the ranks. All it takes is one leak to the press.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
Yeah I get this
And in hindsight they should have.
But it all comes back to the original point- what reason did Joe, MM, or MM’s father have to believe that this wouldn’t be properly handled?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
...and that makes me sad.
The fact that leaks to the press are a valid part of a legal strategy (for either prosecution or defense, or police for that matter) really undermines my faith in humanity.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
I'm neither condoning nor criticizing it,
just speculating like everyone.
If only one of us knew in ’98 about this. Anyone have a flux capacitor?
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
Go back to 1970 and cut The Creeps balls off?
That seems like an effective strategy.
Must… watch… Minority… Report…
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is your point...
…a speculation that if had been reported to CYF it might not have been addressed anyway? That’s possible, but at that point it’s for damn sure not Joe Paterno’s fault any more.
if his story was ….and I made an anonymous tip to CYF I have no issue with Paterno.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
My point is that Schultz was the one who ultimately had authority for pursuing the investigation or letting it die.
It might have made it a little more difficult for him to say ‘nothing to see here’ if there had been some outside attention, but I don’t know that.
What I do know is that the more I ruminate on this the more I get pissed off at Schultz.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
Take it from me....
Joe’s a tough old bird, but this will become his death knell.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Nov 7, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How?
What are they going to say? You have to leave, because you told us about one of your employees finding out about misconduct going on?
Yeah, that sounds fantastic. The only person who should be possibly asked to resign is Spanier. You can make an argument he should’ve been aware of what was going on. Paterno did what he was supposed to.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Like most everyone on here, I really hold what you say in such high regard Derry,
being closer to Joe than most, do you get the feeling he stayed on this long because he knew this was eventually going to happen to the program and he wanted to be there to protect everyone else? The more he falls on the sword, the better the chance the next coach and staff have at starting from the bottom and working their way up?
Joe should stay exactly where he is until the facts are out.
Don’t throw him under the bus now, that would do even worse damage to the school and the program.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
by JuniataMan on Nov 7, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 8 recs
You think worse damage can be done to the program? Really?
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes
First, the facts aren’t all out, we only have one side of the story, the worse side. To make a judgment on Joe Paterno based on that would be disgraceful after all he has stood for.
Second, we would put ourselves in the same camp as the people we despise, the ones who populate the other sites that we constantly ridicule. Who is left then to stand up for Joe? I don’t give a damn about Schultz or Curley but Joe IS the football program and deserves our support. If it turns out that he was wrong then the chips will fall.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
by JuniataMan on Nov 7, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Who is left to stand up for Joe?
How about Joe? How about an army of lawyers and wealthy, powerful trustees? Joe will be fine.
Someone should’ve been standing up for those children.
Anyone with an inkling of knowledge and an ounce of courage would have done so. Nobody in law enforcement agency (outside of the guy who oversees campus police) was notified about the Victim #2 incident for OVER EIGHT YEARS. That’s the one finding of fact that I keep circling back to and can’t get my head around it. Eight years.
I don’t give a damn about process and chain of command. I don’t care about simply meeting the bare minimum required by law. And I’m pretty comfortable taking the position that anybody who knew about children being sexually assaulted in Penn State facilities, and didn’t do everything in their power to report them or prevent future incidents should be fired immediately.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
How are you so sure about the facts and who said what and did what?
Based on the GJ report? That’s one side. How do you know there aren’t other facts that might change the whole thing? A rush to judgment is what I’m saying is wrong. The kids are now safe (physically), we need the facts.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
by JuniataMan on Nov 7, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
The answer is that he's not sure.
None of us are.
Tom Bradley for offensive coordinator.
by ReadingRambler on Nov 7, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Thank you
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
Then it's GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN
You have to worry about the damn chain of command, since it’s what let this happen!
Go ahead. Fire everyone, and bring in a bunch of guys, and if the guy in charge of the campus police can still bury this kind of thing, it will happen again. And the only thing you will have done is made yourself feel better for a few years, thinking, “Oh, great, they did something, this sort of thing won’t happen again.”
The reason you have a process and procedures is so the right thing always happens.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You do realize that the chain of command was a total failure here, right?
Do you think the right thing happened in this instance?
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Of course I don't!
But the solution isn’t to replace the people who did what they were supposed to do.
The solution is to get rid of the people who didn’t do what they were supposed to do, and then fix the procedures so that other people can tell when they’re not doing what they were supposed to do.
Just to repeat, again, how the hell were Curley and Schultz able to bury this? How the hell isn’t there a paper trail for any accusation of things like this?
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I'm thinking there's gotta be a paper trail
that backs Curley and Schultz up. I can’t believe there aren’t memos discussing the substance of the meetings.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
Crap, if that's true...
then McQueary’s really the one you have to find fault with. And I kinda like McQueary.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
For some reason McQueary seems to be getting this big pass because he was ONLY 28
Comparatively to the people involved, yes he was a kid, but to society, he was a grown ass man. I’m 23 and can recognize that.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I like McQueary, too.
But can you remember everything you said in a high stress situation/conversation nine years ago? I’m just wondering if there’s some reasonable explanation other than coverup for all parties’ behavior (except Sandusky).
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Nov 7, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I know.
But I’m a Pollyanna, so I’m holding out hope.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
“Hey do you remember that time you had to tell Joe Paterno that you saw Jerry Sandusky raping a kid in the shower”?
Yeah, I thought you would.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That wouldn't be the question.
What specifically did you say to Coach Paterno? What did he say to you. What specifically did you say to Curley and Schultz, what did they say. I’m sure the grand jury quizzed him up and down about the specifics.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
I'm sure they did too.
They called him highly credible, it sounded to me like his testimony was very convincing.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Which is why I can't believe...
there isn’t a paper trail for this sort of thing. It should be absolutely cut and dry what was reported, and what action was taken.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
unless you want the problem to go away
and so you just leave no paper trail and never tell anyone else about it.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Nov 7, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I document any tense situation with my students. q
I caught you cheating – we talk, I hand out the punishment, I write a memo, I file it away. I have an issue with a student behaving inappropriately, I have a talk (with my Program Director present if necessary), I write a memo, I file it away. It’s standard CYA procedure.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
Yes...
But if the University has a procedure which says “any incident regarding a possible crime on University property must be documented” or somesuch, then Curley and Schultz have no leg to stand on, and Penn State can just hang them out to dry and say “yeah, they broke our procedures, they’re fired.”
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Are you insinuating JoePa himself pushed this under the rug?
Or that Curley and Shultz got rid of any paper trail?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
I know and they didn't find Curley and Schultz credible.
But there are studies on recall bias and the effect that time and stress have on recall. How accurate were Curley and Schultz? Was it because they were lying or because they recalled the event differently? I’m trying to look at both sides and not judge anything because the only facts that I have come from the AG’s presentment of facts, which is biased in its own right. I know I’m probably failing at it.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Nov 7, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You aren't going to remember every detail of a tense situation.
Brains on adrenaline don’t tend to get every detail right later on…
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
Personally I tend to remember those things
But that’s me.
I guess overall my point is that, if MCQueary is getting a pass despite his larger role in this whole thing, then it’s clear to me that people just have it out for Paterno who had a far more minor role. No one is asking about why McQueary didn’t do more, but they blindly accuse Paterno about it and his role was so minor.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You might be in the 0.01% of the population that remembers things exactly as they happened...
The other 99.99% are the ones who defense attorneys depend on in creating doubt.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
My point is not even centralized on what he said to whom and when.
The larger paragraph is my point. Read that next.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Hint: It begins with "I guess overall my point is that..."
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I read it, and I agree with you on pretty much every point.
All I meant to say was that you can’t say how you would recall events like this, and even if you could, your skills of recollection aren’t necessarily those of most people.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
It's just standard Paterno hero worship
Which I know sounds like I’m making him out to diminish him, but there’s this weird effect where suddenly, because someone is a great person at doing one thing, they have to be a great person at doing everything.
Paterno’s held the football program to a very high standard for a long time, and that’s what I respect him for, because it’s crazy hard to do, and it helps a lot of kids.
I don’t expect Paterno to turn the university into Super Awesome Perfect Land. I expect him to run the football program with a very high standard, and if the rest of the University fails to live up to that (which it did) I ain’t gonna blame him.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think this is spot on
Yes, Joe Paterno does have a bit more political sway than McQueary. However, MM was the eye-witness. If he gets a pass for this, how does JoePa not?
I’ll be clear, I’m not making a statement either way, I just don’t see how his actions aren’t directly linked to JoePa’s actions; i.e. if you are criticizing JoePa, then you have to be critizing MM as well.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
A LINK IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND ....
was a FAILURE!!!! The link being CURLEY AND SCHULTZ!!!!!!
"then it's GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN......
Maybe…Watergate never stopped a pattern of behaviour.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
Neither did Jack Abramoff going to prison.
It just made people smarter about covering their tracks I think.
Don't ask questions like this...
At this point I’m afraid of the answers.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
I do not agree
about Paterno, or that my degree means less. I think that is absurd.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 10:14 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Absolutely ABSURD!
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
I still think this might get bigger....
-The missing case of Ray Gricar, the guy who decided not to pursue the 1998 allegations of Sandusky, which predates Joe and MM’s involvement.
-Why wouldn’t MM just go to the cops? I mean, you’re a 27/28 year old man. You know what you saw. I’m interested to hear if he has an eventual statement.
This has been explored a little
He was a kid trying to break into coaching as a GA. He did not want to over-step his bounds, and through the guidance of his father, he went to Joe himself. After his meeting with Curley, maybe they said “we got it from here, ask no more.”
If that's the case...
I hope that I’m never in the situation to ignore my moral compass in order to get a particular job.
by Artiefufkin10 on Nov 7, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
I didn't really mean it like that
I think he was the new guy, and as Jesse. has said, Sandusky was a very big-time presence. It was a delicate situation, earlier Jesse. did a much better job than my quick at-work response explaining the difficulties of the whole thing.
What a lame excuse.
If you make that choice based on your career, that is a selfish choice. How could you sleep at night, knowing that you didn’t do everything possible to make sure something that awful didn’t happen again?
What would you have done?
Really, I’m curious. Go to the police? OK, he could’ve done that… except Schultz was in charge of the University police.
At some point you have to let authorities do their job. Maybe you would’ve gone one step further, but at some point, you have to just let authorities do their job. If you don’t, that’s when you make things worse.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
there's a regular Justice League here at BSD
Sure, I’d love to believe I’d burst in, crane kick Jerry Sandusky, and leave him hanging upside down tied to a light pole outside Eisenhower for the cops to find the next morning, but I realize I actually have no idea how I’d process or react to something so horrific, especially without anything but the vaguest of details.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
by PSU_Buch on Nov 7, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
+1
Everyone wants to believe they would be Awesome Guy who brings the Bad Man to justice, but I don’t want to live in a world that requires Awesome Guy.
I mean, c’mon! The University’s procedures are apparently set up so that Curley and Schultz can bury a sexual misconduct charge brought to their attention. Why the hell aren’t people complaining about that?! How the hell wasn’t their a procedure in place to force them to document this?
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think when the real media get more and more entrenched in this story
Football and Paterno will rarely be mentioned because the media should not journalistically report on “moral” standards. They will bring to light the horrific actions of Curley and Schultz.
I dunno, Spanier's a bigger target
And he’s still available, because if Curley really did tell him, and all they did is (unenforcably) ban him from the Lasch building, that’s legally questionable at best.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Screw the university police, they’re a joke, you call the local police, you call the state police. Good God, if any of you wouldn’t call the police after having seen that, I’d like to know why.
by gsmith140 on Nov 7, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's a criticism for McQueary
… not for Paterno.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
The university police are not a joke in the eyes of the commonwealth. They are THE jurisdiction on University Park.
My grammer skills need improved.
by BMAN13 on Nov 7, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
also a completely baseless statement
Any crime committed on University property is handled by the university police. Outside police forces are only involved in things such as homicide, etc.
But its not just trying to get a job
All of this plays in of course, but lets explore this for a moment.
He saw something horrific. He told his dad, then he told JoePa, two people he trusted. He most likely wanted advice of what to do. Hopefully, none of us will ever find ourselves in a situation in which we witness something like this, especially if it is someone we know and trust. What is the correct first step? Its easy for everyone to say ‘go to the police’. And ultimately thats probably the right thing to do, but isn’t that exactly what he did by taking the matter directly to Curly and Shultz?
At what point is it his civic/moral duty to continue pushing the issue? Where is the line between going through the proper channels and trusting the authorities and becoming a private investigator and doing the job of the police? And remember, he has to make all of these decisions in 2002, with only the information he has. I’d imagine that if he knew then what he knows know (that Curly and Shultz are corrupt pieces of shit), he would have handled the situation much differently.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 8 recs
OMG!
Even after all of these years, I’ve finally come to the conclusion, AFTER all of my years of doubt, that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone and Dr. Mudd had nothing to do with Lincoln’s demise. But Ray Gricar’s disappearance connection to this tragedy…..are we groping for more headlines? “Gricar, legal counsel of Second Mile!”….“Gricar had keys to the Lasch Center”……“Gricar knew someone that graduated from PSU”. Of course, if this all turns out to be true or in anyway related, then Salut to my friend.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
Sorry Derry...
not trying to be a sensationalist, but its weird to me that this guy is missing and had some knowledge of the earliest allegations. I always find missing persons cases to be fairly interesting.
by Artiefufkin10 on Nov 7, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, next people will say
that Cindy Song witnessed something.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
What happens if none of this is true....
Yes something might have happened but what if it is not as bad as everyone is saying. I say we wait and let the courts figure it out. Until then I wait before I start asking for peoples heads.
VERY LOGICAL STATEMENT!!! 110% AGREE!!!!
TOO BAD 95% of the people talking about this subject are ONLY OUT FOR BLOOD!!! And, they just want a WHITEWASH of everything!!!!!!
LET THE COURTS HANDLE THIS!!!!! WE DO NOT KNOW ALL OF THE FACTS!!!!!!
Also, adding this “MORAL” stuff into this is cloudy the picture!!!!
CURLEY AND SCHULTZ are the ROTTEN APPLES when it comes to ANYONE who is presently working for PENN STATE that know anything about this issue!!!! They are the one’s who buried what was told to them!!!!
For somebody who screams in all-caps, you actually make some valid points.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Please stop screaming
I really think you are making some good points. But its getting harder and harder to read your posts.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
I think this is pretty simple in a way.
If I saw what Mike McQueary saw, the first person I would have told is Joe Paterno.
If I were Joe Paterno, and Mike McQueary told me what he saw, the first person I would have told is Tim Curley.
If Tim Curley told me that an investigation was ongoing, and to shut up about it, I would have.
And I would have been wrong. Not evil, not criminal, but a grown man who made a decision that was, in retrospect and 20/20 hindsight, wrong. I make decisions for a living, and I’m not always right. Nobody is perfect. I think Paterno needs to admit this publicly and offer his resignation. If the Board of Trustees chooses to accept it, I’m fine with that. If they don’t, I’m fine with that too. But he needs to admit he was wrong.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 10:23 AM EST reply actions 7 recs
Unless of course
There was more to it then that, which there obviously could be.
by FB6244 on Nov 7, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
This was what I was trying to say above. Good post Jesse. This is not a cut-and-dry issue and I think it would be wise for everyone to stop looking at it as “Well he NEEDED to…” This is far more difficult and we have the ability of hindsight.
This
While I still haven’t been able to decide if I feel he should resign or not, I honestly believe that this is more than likely what happened.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
I agree with this
People have either built the man up to be this superhero champion of justice, or this evil, cruel monster, but really all he is is a human being. Like any of us. And one that probably has regrets things werent different. I’m sure even if he did go further and push the issue more, I’m sure he still wishes there was more he had done.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
While I do not agree with Joe blanket issuing a statement saying "I should have done more" or "I could have done more"
I would fully endorse a statement to the effect of, “In hindsight I wish I had acted differently.” Not full culpability, which IMO he doesn’t deserve, but acknowledging that knowing what he might now know, things could have been handled differently.
Fire Dan Snyder
That would be fine
Especially since despite being the biggest figure, he actually had by far the smallest part in all of this.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
This is really maddening to me
I mean, I am enjoying the discussion as it relates to altruism and/or his (and MMs) civic/moral duty. Its interesting philisophically to me.
But, everyone (all media outlets) are focusing on Joe’s role, precicely because he is the household name that it will sell advertising.
In the meantime, Jerry Sandusky used a charity he founded specifically to help underpriviledged youth as a breeding ground for his own sexual perversion. The real travesty here is that this happened, and it ruined 8 lives that we know of.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
thats where the kids were from and where sandusky worked at the time.
i think this will be a key part of their defense
keep winning ugly
while I am disgusted at Curley and Schultz for not doing their job
I have more disgust in reserve for those at the charity. Not everyone—I am sure not everyone knew or suspected. But there had to have been some rumblings there.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Nov 7, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have been saying this since Saturday
In fact, did I hear/read correctly that the charity says they were never told of any wrongdoings? And no one had any inkling? Really?!?! His victims were not college students (why this should not be a football issue) – he found them through the charity. Geezus.
retrospect and 20/20 hindsight, wrong
Yes. Absolutely. But wrong in hindsight does not mean wrong. If I knew the outcome of all of my decisions before I made them, I’d probably make a ton of different decisions.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Right.
If I knew the outcome of all of my decisions before I made them, I’d probably make a ton of different decisions.
No shit. But there are people in this world that decide to take on professions where they are called to make decisions. I am one of them. There are many circumstances where I felt that I made the best decision I could at the time, but that in retrospect the decision was wrong. The only way you get around that, and I mean the only way, is to say I did what I thought was right, but I was wrong. If you’d like to find new counsel (in my case) I’ll discount your bill and cooperate in any way that I can.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
I agree with most of what you are saying, by the way
Really the only thing I agree with is offering his resignation. Should Joe admit he was wrong? Yes, he should. But he was wrong because he misjudged Shultz and Curley. Should he say he wish he could make the decision again? Once again, yes. And I’m sure he actually does.
But, if asked if, knowing only what he knew then, should he have made a different decision, no, I don’t think he needs to do that. Which is why I don’t think he needs to offer a resignation.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
If what you did...
was exactly what you were supposed to do, but it was wrong, then you are not wrong, the system is.
Saying “I was wrong” is putting blame in the completely wrong place, and it fixes nothing. You can’t rely on everyone to always know what the right thing to do is. What you can rely on is having a system in place such that the right thing to do is what people are required to do..
People should never have to do more than what they’re supposed to. That might sound like I’m saying “you only have to do things to the letter of the law” but what I’m saying is “the laws have to work.”
Now, I mean, Paterno could do both – he could come out and say “I should have done more, and I’m working with the University to come up with procedures to make sure that myself, and everyone else, will do more.” But it’s the second part that’s important. The first part is just pointless pandering to the media.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
You'd be suprised what taking more responsibility does as opposed to shirking it.
I did what I thought was right, but I was wrong. If you’d like to find new counsel (in my case) I’ll discount your bill and cooperate in any way that I can.
I’ve said this a few times. None of the people I said to fired me. Including my boss that I specifically offered my resignation to.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
You're missing the last point
Would you being fired have fixed anything?
No? Then it was pointless pandering – almost by definition, since it would have accomplished nothing (pointless) and was said to endear yourself to the person you’re saying it to (pandering).
If, by following the rules, he did something that was wrong, the rules need to be fixed.
Attorney-client privilege would be a similar example. If you’re told something, and your gut says it puts someone at risk, but you know there’s nowhere near enough to justify telling it to the police, you can’t do it. (I dunno, maybe just some random comment a client says in a tone that strikes you wrong). Morally it sucks, but getting rid of the rule causes more problems than keeping it does.
In this case “the rule” is “you report it to authorities, and don’t interfere,” and I still hold that amending that rule to “and if they don’t do anything, you do something on your own” causes more problems than keeping it would.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's not pandering.
It’s taking responsibility. People like that.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
It depends on your point of view
I believe that in your case, jess., it is taking responsibility. You seem like an honest person that would do that in earnest.
If someone submits their resignation purely to make themselves look good and sway opinion, then it is the definition of pandering.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
so in hindsight you find you were not so much wrong, but should have done more, you will resign your profession.
My grammer skills need improved.
that's my question as well.
Joe does nothing essentially “wrong” but looking back with a huge grand jury document and ample evidence and arrests, and says okay, based on this information that I can know see, I could have done more, he should lose his job? But as a lawyer, you can say you should have done more and move on to the next case? I’m not being rude, I’m just lost in your logic here a bit.
I also, never said he should lose his job.
I said that he should offer his resignation to the Board of Trustees who can decide whether or not to retain him.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
And how many more..
would get harmed because you resigned, and your replacement was just as stupid as you were? Wouldn’t you still be at fault then?
Punishing yourself for doing the correct thing, which turned out to not be enough, is stupid. You fix the system. You don’t offer yourself up as a sacrificial lamb.
There are three things Paterno could have done. Ignore McQueary, pass him on to his superiors, or try to take matters into his own hands. If Penn State’s administration worked properly, either of the last two would work fine. We know that Paterno’s not the first kind of person. If you fix the administration, being the second kind of person is good enough.
If you fire him for nothing other than doing the correct thing, you run the risk of getting the first kind again.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
What should you have done?
Seriously, what should Paterno have done?
Because that’s the problem. He did what he was supposed to. If he should’ve done more, than the University procedures should say what he should do.
It’s easy enough to say “I should’ve done more,” but we live in a system of laws, and they work in an administration. You don’t blame someone for following the rules. You blame the rules for not being strong enough to prevent Curley from burying it.
Paterno is not the problem. You want a simple answer? Fine. All allegations of sexual abuse/harassment that occur at the University that are reported to University police should be logged and detailed and possibly assigned to an independent authority inside the University police.
See? You have to fix the problem, not the people. If you think not enough was done, say what should have been done. And going outside the chain of command isn’t a solution, because it’s only going to cause more problems.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Equivocation
Bleed Blue ‘n White, every time I read your posts on here you are saying he did what he was legally responsible too do and every objective post I’ve seen agrees. The problem is at some point a person needs to stand up and say this is wrong and go through hell to see that the child was protected.
What Joe should have done is tell the GA when he was informed of the assault, "Son, we need to go to the police station right now and you need to tell them what you saw." not tell him "tomorrow we’ll go see an administrator and let them handle it." If Joe’s child, grandchild or great grand child had been the one seen with Sandusky would he have just gone to an administrator? No, he would have gone to the POLICE as he should have felt compelled to do if it was my child or yours, and don’t give me that crap about the administrator being in charge of the police. Police wear badges and carry guns and investigate crimes and protect our children, police don’t sit in a university office managing a legal counsel office and ’TECHNICALLY" overseeing a university police force.
While I think Joe is a great coach and mentor of young men, that in no way can absolve him of his moral responsibility to try to protect that child and his failure to do so in this situation.
To say he did all he was required to do is equivocation and in the end you know it and Joe Paterno knows it and to hide behind it makes me want to vomit.
by gshiler2 on Nov 7, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You still don't get it
What Joe should have done is tell the GA when he was informed of the assault, “Son, we need to go to the police station right now and you need to tell them what you saw.” not tell him “tomorrow we’ll go see an administrator and let them handle it.”
Joe had an employee come to him about something that happened in the workplace with someone that is not his employee.
I have no problem with him setting up an appointment with his boss, and letting his boss handle it.
If you do, that’s fine, however, the law thinks that telling your boss is just as good, and so if you think that ethically that’s not good enough, you should be screaming for the law to be changed. The law should never be “not enough.”
To say he did all he was required to do is equivocation
The laws exist to protect children. If you need to do more than what they require to protect the children, then the laws are not strong enough.
If Paterno needed to go to the police, the law needs to be changed. No one should ever be criticised for doing what the law says is the right thing to do.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 8, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
the law doesn't say what is right, merely what is legally required. There is a distinct difference you don't understand.
"I once had a rose named after me and was very flattered until I read the catalogue description which said ' not very good in a bed, but great up against the wall'."- Eleanor Roosevelt
But you're not Joe Paterno
The myth of Paterno is that when faced with a choice about taking the easy way out or the hard way out, he always takes the hard way. But this time, he didn’t. He — and others — tried to just keep quiet and hope the tragedy went away. Now some number of children were hurt afterwards, and their “blood” is all over the university’s hands.
The myth of Joe Paterno does the tough thing, and makes sure that Sandusky in such a way that he never has the chance to hurt another kid. When this was on-going, Joe Paterno was arguably the most powerful person in the state of Pennsylvania. If he wanted to really stop Sandusky, he could have.
Of course, the reality is much more difficult and nuanced, and Joe Paterno is a man, not a myth.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
610/ 94 WIP
Radio here in Phlly is really on it now.
They were on it all day yesterday too..
The fact is that they don’t give a $hit about PSU unless its to jump on them.
Their motivation is also to get listeners to call in, so expect to hear some misinformation and spin from the GJ’s report.
by Artiefufkin10 on Nov 7, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Also, WIP (and many other media outlets)
are making this a 100% Joe Paterno only issue.
When its convenient for them, he’s a figurehead that doesn’t have any real influence on the program. On the other hand, he’s like the head of mafioso and runs everything.
by Artiefufkin10 on Nov 7, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
Yup, I mentioned this in an earlier comment.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
The dripping irony is that
the hosts and callers will play judge, jury, and executioner now, and then tonight, they will cheer the waste of flesh that is Michael Vick.
The problem is that the average WIP host and caller is too stupid to recognize the cognitive dissonance that envelopes their pea brains.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
We should call in and blame the PSU problems on Andy Reid's timeouts..
seriously, they’re the worst.
by Artiefufkin10 on Nov 7, 2011 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
That deserves either an awkward chest bump or an over-embellished stomach punch.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
It really bugs me..
that they literally give zero shits about PSU until something like this happens. Then they’re experts on PSU.
I’m not exonerating anybody involved, but they feed off a fan base of sensationalism.
Yesterday somebody (a woman) called in trying to rationalize that MM should have went directly to the cops and that if Paterno is getting flak, so should he. They would have none of it. Doesn’t fit their agenda.
by Artiefufkin10 on Nov 7, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's where we're at now.
This is the biggest sports story in the country right now. It’s leading ESPN broadcasts. It was the lead story on the NBC Nightly News over the weekend. Journalists from all over the country are in State College, and guess what? They’re going to be looking for more victims.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He is NOT
Judge Judy and Executioner!
Sorry, couldn’t resist and even though it wasn’t your intent, was very thankful for the smile this brought to my face.
Excellent choice
I suggest the old time radio channel today. Heartwarming shows that happened prior to all of this..
yeah
I heard them yesterday as well but now the big hosts are on it- Angelo, Barkann
yesterday it was the Rob Charry and the former Temple/Eagles player...
I’d like to think one of those guys DOESN’T have an agenda. But too hard to be sure.
by Artiefufkin10 on Nov 7, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
Curley and Schultz will get what's coming for them.
Spanier’s an idiot but he’s not going anywhere. Joe Paterno is hardly to blame.
Sandusky will also have his day in court.
You’re all being overdramatic. Everyone’s seems to be out for blood.
A plateau is a high form of flattery.
by Assorted Fruit on Nov 7, 2011 10:44 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
time to go
The whole admin needs to go. Spanier should resign, hes just as guilty as curley and schultz. How could Joe not follow up on what big red told him. What kind of person lets that go away without resolution? Yeah by the book he did the right thing, tell those victims how by the book feels. Its only going to get uglier and uglier as time goes on folks.
by Jog73 on Nov 7, 2011 10:44 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions 1 recs
How do you expect Joe to do something.
Joe didn’t see it happen. Why shouldn’t big red have done something else if he saw it happen.
"Seeing it happen" is a pretty low standard in child rape cases, don't you think?
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes but who knows what he was told.
How do we know that he wasn’t told something like “I think I saw this happen”. Joe went to the guy above him and did everything that he should do what else do you want him to do if he was told I think I saw something happen. Depending on the wording that big red told Joe. You are telling me that if someone came up to today that you worked with and said I think i saw this happen in the bathroom at work you are going to police. You are not going to go to your boss first and/or tell that guy he should go to the police about it.
by jetskijoe on Nov 7, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The other issue
Is that accusing someone of rape is also a big deal. Whether or not that person is guilty, that could absolutely ruin their life.
As a (slightly different) example, I submit Scott Paxson.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
And the Duke LaCrosse players.
Not to mention people who have been accused of child molestation for spiteful reasons and were not guilty of it. You have to be careful with those kinds of accusations.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
Not to mention people who have been accused of child molestation for spiteful reasons
That is not what this is. If it was his Wife accusing him in the context of a divorce that wold be one thing, but that is not what is going on here.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The point isnt that
The point is that in the court of public opinion, accusations are all that matter. In that vein, accusing someone of a very serious crime needs to be done cautiously. While this isn’t a spiteful scenario, it doesn’t mean that you should approach it any less cautiously.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't say he should have called CNN.
And I’ve said several times that accusations of this type should not be made frivolously. But it’s not like he never met Mike McQueary before. He was on the team for five years and he thought highly enough of him to give him a job.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Right, and he'd known Sandusky for longer
In one case, he’d have to believe that someone had deceived him for multiple decades. If he figures McQueary’s lying, he was just wrong about someone for a few years.
Or… he could just pass it up to his superiors and avoid the conflict of interest altogether. Which is what he should’ve done, and what he did do.
The entirety of the blame is on Schultz and Curley. That’s where things failed. I’m sure Joe will feel like he could’ve done more, should’ve done more, but that’s just normal empathy. What he should’ve done is exactly what he did – follow the University’s procedures for this sort of thing.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
Of course it's not
But how the hell does Joe know? I mean, on one hand, he’s got Sandusky, who’s been his coworker for years, and on the other hand, you’ve got McQueary, who’s been around for less than what, a quarter of what Sandusky has?
Paterno’s initial thought’s gotta be “geez, is this true? I can’t believe it, but this McQueary kid seems okay…” and his next thought’s gotta be “I can’t get involved, I don’t know any of the details or what’s going on here, I gotta let Campus Police and Curley and them handle this.”
(Curley because even if there wasn’t enough to actually arrest Sandusky, Paterno’s gotta be thinking they can maybe change some policies regarding Sandusky in the Lasch building).
I dunno why everyone’s lambasting Joe for basically being “I don’t want to get involved.” Joe’s the last person who should be getting involved, because no way he can be impartial regarding Sandusky.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Hes the boss, your underling reports a crime in your house, its your responsiblity
by Jog73 on Nov 7, 2011 10:55 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions 1 recs
I understand that
but didn’t Joe go and report it to someone?
In turn, he directed him to the correct authorities
JoePa didn’t see it. He only became aware of this horrific situation because MM was unsure how he should proceed. Joe was aware that MM did talk to Curley and Shultz, and trusted them to handle it. Seeing as Shultz was the head of the university police, this seems like the propper authorities.
When nothing came of it, JoePa, as well as MM had a question to ask himself- Did Curley and Shultz do their job and investigate this? The answer, unless you live in baltimore, is yes, I trust the police did their jobs. So the next question to ask is- Are they competent? And once again, they have to be.
Look, we’re all looking at this in hindsight with a much clearer picture than at the time.
The question we are all looking to answer about Joe and MM specifically, is really a question about human nature and civic/moral duty. What is enough? And who do we trust?
In some situations, reporting a fight to the police is enough. If you have the proper training, maybe you could get involved and break it up. But how many times to people breaking up fights end up in handcuffs, in trouble for fighting? The problem is that there are some very black and white issues here. The actors, Curley, Shultz, Sandusky. Guilty. Scum.
The observers, MM and Joe did what they were supposed to do. But the issue of what is acceptable and what is enough are quite gray.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Something is disturbing me here a bit
That everyone is talking about everyone else involved in the case, or not involved and pointing their anger at them. Can we spend some time pointing our anger at the person who commited these crimes? “He who shant be spoken of” He is the one who actually committed these deeds, He is the one who caused all the problems. He is the one who is the center of all of this. Lets hang him in effigy for a bit before looking elsewhere. Look at the person who actualy committs crimes, not those around him, atleast for awhile.
by AriesGD on Nov 7, 2011 11:08 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
The guilty people are in jail
Or at least they will be
The best thing about the Internet is that everyone is an expert in every field of human and scientific endeavor, blessed with omniscience.
I will catch you guys later.
I'm a woman eating monster with a suitcase full of fire.
by WorldBFat on Nov 7, 2011 11:18 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
Wait, Fat.....
don’t go…we appreciate your omniscience!
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
seriously
WorldBFat, dont leave us. I need hilarious things to laugh at!
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
Oh I'm sure it's not permanent.
People forming strong opinions despite wildly inadequate support is, perhaps oddly, a pet peeve of mine. Scroll up or down for examples.
So, this will be my last post on THIS topic, at least until more information is available. Hopefully other threads get traction after a few days.
I'm a woman eating monster with a suitcase full of fire.
by WorldBFat on Nov 7, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well
enjoy the vacation. See you when you get back.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
Can we PLEASE argue abou the QB's?
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
by letsgopsu on Nov 7, 2011 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I am very sad about all this.
I considered making a fanpost, but I don’t know, I just didn’t feel like it. I wanted to get my thoughts and personal experiences out there on the principles involved. I’m not a writer, I’m just gonna let my thoughts flow a little, but I don’t promise it will flow well.
A lot of you know who I am, but I prefer to not use my real name in an online forum such as this. So thanks in advance for respecting that.
I was an offensive lineman at PSU from 1955-1999. I was a multi year starter. I am active in the lettermen’s club and anyone who knows me would immediately associate my name with PSU football. My fall Saturday’s are consumed by it, I plan vacations around it. I had injuries, surgery, was promoted, demoted, thrown in study hall for slacking in class, and was academic all big ten. We suffered heartbreaking losses, had huge emotional wins wins and everything in between during my time there. I battled with Joe Paterno about grades, weight, performance, drinking, any and all other normal "college stuff". I have criticized the staff including Joe Paterno over the years, but I remain extremely proud to have played for him, and I look back at my college experience and affiliation with Penn State and it’s football program as overwhelmingly positive.
I was a teammate of Mike McQ for three years and consider him a friend despite having had minimal contact with him over the last dozen years. I know him to be a Penn Stater through and through.
I have met Graham Spanier only in passing, but I consider him an excellent administrator and has had a positive effect on the U.
I have met and conversed with Tim Curley dozens of times over the years, most recently as August 2010 when him and his wife took the time to speak with my wife and I for over half an hour at a lettermen’s function. He has always seemed to me to be professional, conservative, and similar to Spanier, positive for the U.
The first time I have heard of Shultz was Saturday, and I don’t recognize him from the pictures I am currently watching on CNN in my office here in SoCal.
Jerry Sandusky. I attended PSU camp while I was in high school as early as 1992, then had nearly daily contact with him from the fall of 1995 through the end of 1999 in the context of player and coach. I participated in Second Mile events including golf tournaments, banquets, and autograph signings. Jerry and his wife had children of their own, and from what I understand had several adopted children, including a teammate of mine, Jon. He also worked with children (boys) through the Second Mile and would have these kids come through the facilities and attend practice. There was no reason for me to think this was nothing more than Jerry helping a kid from a troubled background. It seemed honorable that he devoted so much of his life and time to helping people. I never saw anything inappropriate or sexual in nature happen. Looking back, I will paraphrase Coach Paterno "we were fooled". Jerry had one kid around for a period of more than a year who I remember well. Looking back, I suspect he was one of the eight victims. My heart is breaking thinking about this. Knowing that this could have been happening near me or around me, makes me sick. I don’t know how else to describe this feeling. It seemed at the time that maybe they were going to adopt him.
Jokes and rumors. As 18-22 year old players and college students, we would make crude jokes. "Jerry sure likes having little boys around…..etc, etc". I chalked this up to juvenile humor. I really did believe that he was helping kids. Was I naive? I don’t know. There was a rumor that someone saw Jerry and this boy working out in the weight room after hours in only jockstraps or underwear. I thought at the time that was so preposterous and farfetched that it wasn’t possible and guys were just being crude. I don’t know what to think now looking back.
I have not read the grand jury report. Maybe I will, maybe I won’t. I spent a good amount of time last night reading comments on this site though. Although it is hard to disassociate Jerry Sandusky and Penn State Football, I am able to disassociate this scandal and Penn State Football. Joe Paterno is a man of integrity. Our program operates in a clean fashion and in compliance. Could Mike or Joe have done things differently? I guess. Like so many previous comments, I don’t know how we would have reacted if we witnessed what Mike apparently did. I am of the crowd that will commend Mike in how he reacted. Remember that, at least from my experience, it appeared that Jerry was an honorable man who devoted much of his life to helping kids and was a legendary coach at Penn State. Mike took the steps to bring that crashing down. It must have been hard. Now, it appears administrators in the AD and the legal system are where the failures are. IF Curley and Schultz lied about all this, that is despicable and they will serve the appropriate punishment.
Some folks are saying they will never give money to Penn State again. I guess I understand, but I won’t join them. Our school and program are not havens of sexual depravity. Our football program is run by men who teach and aid young men to be future honorable ones. Jerry Sandusky committing crimes doesn’t change that for me.
My heart goes out to everyone from Joe Paterno, to Mike, to the victims and their families. I hope the legal process serves justice to all deserving parties and we can move on with our lives.
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
by hbeach08 on Nov 7, 2011 11:20 AM EST reply actions 35 recs
Thanks for posting this. Good to see you're keeping your chin up.
This calmed me down a little, and I think it will have the same impact on others.
by Illegal Formation on Nov 7, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
How did you
get 44 years of eligibility?
That's what I wondered.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
He was not only a hell of a player,
but also a master of disguise.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
by SubLime on Nov 7, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
oh then you come along and actually add something to this discussion
I'm a woman eating monster with a suitcase full of fire.
by WorldBFat on Nov 7, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
you da man, hb
I really appreciate and value this perspective and the time you devoted to sharing it. Thank you.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
Thanks for posting this
I really did feel a big sigh drain frmo me on this. Maybe I can get some work done now. Thank you again.
Thank you
I appreciate your perspective on this whole mess.
And to those whose only comment to this was to criticize what was most certainly just a key stroke error (since the writer states "the fall of 1995" later in the post), shame on you.
Hello, you must be new here.
Ribbing for a typo is a sign of love and respect.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
thanks to all above and below for kind comments
it was just a typo…just ribbing PghNIttany…no worries
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
I cant even imagine how you
and other players feel about all of this. Thanks for sharing all of this.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
it fucking sucks
i’m gonna go home and hold my daughter for like 9 hours
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
by hbeach08 on Nov 7, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
people might not realize
but you, the former players who knew an entirely different man, are victims in this as well. My best to you and your family through all of this.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Thanks, Hbeach
that’s what I’d do if I were you. But we all really appreciate your perspective. It means more than the rest of ours’ put together.
Fire Dan Snyder
Thanks so much for taking the time to do this
This must be very hard for you. If this makes us sick, I can’t even begin to imagine how you feel.
"Rabble rabble rabble; fire Joe; snarky meme; rude nickname; rabble rabble rabble
I havent commented on this yet
because i wanted to let it all sink in. But I think as a PSU fan, the best advice is this:
We just have to take our medicine on this one.
I am not going to agree with the knee jerk reactions, nor do I believe JoePa needs to be fired or that he did anything wrong. But I cannot, nor will I, argue with anyone who believes this at this time.
I am not going to agree that this has anything to do with our football program anymore than OJ Simpson is a black mark on USC or when a disgruntled worker shoots his boss at work, it reflects on teh company as a whole. Yet I cannot argue with anyone who wants to look at it this way at this time.
I am not going to agree with anyone who likens this to Ohio State or Miami or USC, because (a) this is worse from a relativity standpoint, but also (b) it didnt help the program win, nor is it at all related to football in anyway. Yet I will not argue with someone who wants to look at it this way at this time.
When I first read the whole thing my initial reaction is “how am i going to defend PSU when the Notre Dame, Pitt and OSU fans come at me with their jokes.” But the only correct response to this query, to me, is not to respond. Because in all honestly defending Penn State here is, at worst silly and at best futile.
I think most Penn State fans know that while the allegations are disgusting, serious, and embarrasing, it has little to do with Penn State athletics. But we also know the national media, rival bloggers and people who dislike Penn State football or have been searching for years for dirt on JoePa are going to make absurdist arguments, silly joke, and incorrect assumptions.
by swiggy04 on Nov 7, 2011 11:27 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
JOEPA WAS PRAISED BY STATE PROSECUTOR &/OR ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR HOW HE HANDLED THIS SITUATION!!!!!
The problem ….
There is so many UN-EDUCATED MORONS in this world, it is UNBELIEVABLE!!!! Everyone wants to just spout off about this matter, and say how this person should have done this, and this person should have done that … just shut up. and let the legal system sort this out!!!
What needs to be constantly mentioned is that the STATE PROSECUTOR and/or ATTORNEY GENERAL have PRAISED what JOEPA did!!! This LARGE fact should be good enough for everyone when it comes to JOEPA’s role in this!!!!!!
Joe was praised for complying with the law and the investigation.
The assistant attorney general does not decide on issues of morality.
Of course, neither should I. But I have. But maybe I should not. My brain hurts.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
MORALITY v. LAW
If someone does the right thing in the letter of the law, they should NOT be CRUCIFIED because someone thinks they should have gone FURTHER!!!! JOEPA followed the letter of the law, and that is all we should be asking of him. In fact, he is the ONLY ONE that did the RIGHT THING in this situation!!!!!
Is that certain, however?
Is following the letter of the law, here which arguably might be considered the bare minimum, success with honor?
I don’t have an answer to this question.
But I do know that if I saw someone drowning, and I could swim, but the law imposed no obligation on me to save him or her, I could not live with myself knowing that, at least in the eyes of the law, I acted properly.
This entire matter is really, really complex. Add in the philosophical issues, and it really could serve as a ten-volume case study.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
But I do know that if I saw someone drowning, and I could swim, but the law imposed no obligation on me to save him or her
This isn’t the same. You’re comparing “doing nothing, when I could have done something” with “doing something, when I could have done more.”
If the law required you to call 911 if you saw someone drowning, and not attempt to save the person yourself, would you really feel all that bad if you called 911, and they couldn’t save him?
Now would you feel worse if you jumped in, and because of not being trained or anything, you accidentally forced the person under and accidentally killed them, even though the rescuers got there in time?
I don’t understand how “following the letter of the law” is a criticism here. He did what he was supposed to do. He’s not a private investigator. He doesn’t have his own secret police. At best maybe he would’ve called his son, who’s a lawyer, who probably said “No, you did what you’re supposed to do, let the University police handle it.”
Looking back on it now I’m sure he feels sick to his stomach, but that’s hindsight, and the sick to your stomach part is just normal disgust. You don’t blame yourself for not doing enough – you fix the system so that doing what you’re supposed to do is enough.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
equivocation
Bleed Blue ‘n White, every time I read your posts on here you are saying he did what he was legally responsible too do and every objective post I’ve seen agrees. The problem is at some point a person needs to stand up and say this is wrong and go through hell to see that the child was protected.
What Joe should have done is tell the GA when he was informed of the assault, “Son, we need to go to the police station right now and you need to tell them what you saw.” not tell him “tomorrow we’ll go see an administrator and let them handle it.” If Joe’s child, grandchild or great grand child had been the one seen with Sandusky would he have just gone to an administrator? No, he would have gone to the POLICE as he should have felt compelled to do if it was my child or yours, and don’t give me that crap about the administrator being in charge of the police. Police wear badges and carry guns and investigate crimes and protect our children, police don’t sit in a university office managing a legal counsel office and ’TECHNICALLY" overseeing a university police force.
While I think Joe is a great coach and mentor of young men, that in no way can absolve him of his moral responsibility to try to protect that child and his failure to do so in this situation.
To say he did all he was required to do is equivocation and in the end you know it and Joe Paterno knows it and to hide behind it makes me want to vomit.
by gshiler2 on Nov 7, 2011 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What the hell happened to Penn State?
Didn’t Joe teach us better than this? Hasn’t Joe done enough, he’s devoted his LIFE to this university, over 6 decades of time and now a large portion of people are turning their backs on him over an incredibly minor role he had in this whole thing that isn’t even clear? A lot of people here disgust me, utterly disgust me with how quick they are to turn on the man, the man who’s action and guidance of this university may be the only reason you got a job in the first place with the respect he got for this institution, hard work was part of it, but don’t pretend that the name on the diploma didn’t mean something too, if it didn’t there would be no reason for elite schools and everyone would go to Shippensburg or West Chester.
What happened to goodwill, if there is one person at this university that deserves the benefit of the doubt until all the facts are in order, it’s Joe. And why the hell is Joe being crucified and McQueary is largely getting a pass because he was just a kid? A 28 year old is a grown ass man. Joe had a very, very minor role in all of this and honestly, he probably didn’t even need to be involved at all. Mike is maybe the second largest figure in all of this just behind Sandusky himself in terms of importance of role.
Over his life Joe has done far more good for children than this perceived bad. Do we even have THON without the rabid and proud student body he cultivated?
People need to ask themselves a lot of questions before they ask them of Joe. Why can’t we just wait for all the facts to be out before we act as judge, jury and executioner? The man has earned that from us, being Penn Staters and the principles that implies you have to know it’s true.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 12:13 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
Great Post
Rushing to judgement is rarely the right course of action. There were obviously a few involved who should have done more quickly, but it really looks like the hate is being given to the one who acted as quickly and in the most correct way possible. Which is ridiculous.
Joe Paterno is being held to a higher standard than most and he should be.......
His stature within the university makes it so. That being said, if he knew what happened and did not follow through by at least firing the guy and reporting it to the REAL police then that is huge moral shortcoming. I don’t think it’s fair to jump to conclusions either but the facts are the facts and I don’t think Joe makes it through this unscathed. This is an issue that you can’t just dismiss because of a man’s body of work. Either way, people will get fired and prosecuted as they should, and Joe’s legacy will be tarnished forever.
by burmbuster on Nov 7, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
FOLLOW THRU BY AT LEAST FIRING THE GUY????????
The guy "SANDUSKY" did NOT WORK for PENN STATE during the 2002 incident!!!! JOEPA had NO CONTROL over him!!!! If you (burmbuster) get this little bit of the information wrong, what else are you getting wrong, and everyone else is getting wrong????
Seriously dude, read up on the established facts before posting
Joe had 0 authority over Sandusky in 2002, he retired in 1999. Also, University Park Police IS real police. If there was a murder on campus, it would be in UPP investigating. They have the same training, expertise and authority any other police force in America has. They are exactly the same as the police that patrol your own neighborhood.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
110% AGREE!!!!!!
The PSU Police officers go through ACT 120 (in PA) which is commonly known as MUNICIPAL POLICE ACADEMY!!!!!
If one thinks the UP police
are the equivalent to security guards, go mess with them. See what happens.
I swear I saw a kid being chased by them on campus get runover a couple summers ago.
Driving down Curtin at like 11pm, all of a sudden I see like 4 cops running out of nowhere and 2 cruisers and 2 SUVS swerving in and out of parking lots chasing a guy who was on foot. One SUV jumped the curve right in front of the creamery and I swear used the vehicle to pin the guy with it’s bumper against one of the planters there. The kid started screaming holy hell saying his leg was broke and I slowly backed the hell out of there before I disappeared like I was a part of Operation Condor.
UP Police do NOT mess around.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
In that context, and a parallel to this one
A case could be made that you didn’t stick around as per your civic/moral duty to make sure the kid was ok and the cops were doing their jobs correctly. Instead you trusted that they were handling the situation correctly..
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Exactly
I didn’t give it a second thought as I left, I trusted in those who had authority that this individual had committed some crime and had to be caught and they would do was what correct, because I didn’t have all the facts regarding it.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
DON'T TAZE ME BRO!!!
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
Actually, all of us who do care about PSU....
are taking a good tazin’ over this.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
What I told the one person...
who mentioned this is this: what do I think about this?
That I’m damn glad that Paterno realized that Sandusky isn’t the right kind of person to be head coach at Penn State.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So...
When is somebody going to ban this obvious troll?
FOLLOW THRU BY AT LEAST FIRING THE GUY????????
The guy “SANDUSKY” did NOT WORK for PENN STATE during the 2002 incident!!!! JOEPA had NO CONTROL over him!!!! If you (burmbuster) get this little bit of the information wrong, what else are you getting wrong, and everyone else is getting wrong????
LYNCH MOB ....
For everyone that is involved in this LYNCH MOB to WHITEWASH EVERYTHING, i hope you get what you deserve!!!! We have a legal system and bureaucracy to deal with issues like this for a reason!!!! We as a society known as the UNITED STATES do not go for VIGILANTE JUSTICE and LYNCH MOBS!!!! We are a society of educated people (although this is starting to be in doubt when it comes to the posts about this issue) that don’t jump to conclusion and reserve judgement!!!!!!
WHY IS EVERYBODY YELLING!!!!!!
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Nov 7, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
BECAUSE ...
MORONS that JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS own computers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
x
Just to continue the theme of cult classics of the last 20 years. ..
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I was looking for one when he was in the wheel chair/cast/splint/etc.
Well played.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
to be fair
your shouting isnt really helping the discussion along much either. Lets try to keep this all civil and avoid it turning into a shouting match.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/…1/living-a-lie
These are not my words. I’m just linking this perspective. Take it for what it’s worth.
Joe Paterno issued a statement yesterday regarding the apparent fact that for 43 years Paterno’s PSU program harbored a serial child rapist (Jerry Sandusky joined Paterno’s staff in 1966 and was running football camps at PSU for ten-year-old boys as late as 2009). Here it is in full:pe
This is a craven bit of attorney-crafted circumlocution that shouldn’t fool anybody, but Paterno is in the peculiar position of being a deeply selfish, half-crazy old man who the national media continue treat with kid gloves.
There can be little doubt that Paterno has known since at least 1998 that Sandusky had a "problem" with "inappropriate behavior" toward children, i.e., he was a child molester. That’s when the campus police did a six-week investigation after a mother reported to them that her 11-year-old son had showered with Sandusky. From the grand jury report:
The mother of Victim 6 confronted Sandusky about showering with her son, the effect it had had on her son, whether Sandusky had sexual feelings when he hugged her naked son in the shower, and where Victim 6′s buttocks were when Sandusky hugged him in the shower. Sandusky said he had showered with other boys and Victim 6′s mother tried to make him promise never to shower with a boy again but he would not. She asked him if his "private parts" had touched Victim 6 when he bear-hugged him. Sandusky replied, "I don’t know . . . maybe." At the conclusion of the second conversation, after Sandusky was told he could not see Victim 6 any more, Sandusky said, "I understand. I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness. I know I won’t get it from you. I wish I were dead."
This conversation, in which Sandusky in effect admits that there are other victims, and even refuses to say he’ll stop victimizing children, was surreptitiously observed by a PSU police detective, who was then ordered by the head of campus police to drop the matter. (The local district attorney, who for unknown reasons decided not to press charges, disappeared in 2005 and was declared legally dead in July).
To put it mildly, it’s extremely unlikely that in a little town like State College, PA, word of this investigation didn’t get back to Paterno. This supposition is bolstered by Sandusky’s otherwise strange "retirement" the following year. Sandusky was considered perhaps the top defensive coordinator in college football at the time, he was only 55, and he had long been considered Paterno’s heir apparent. The story Sandusky gave out was that he was retiring because Paterno told him he wouldn’t be succeeding him as head coach at PSU. At 72 Paterno was, in the spring of 1999, already the oldest coach in major college football, and his otherwise inexplicable decision to get rid of his right-hand man in this fashion suddenly makes perfect sense if one assumes Paterno decided it might be harmful to his already iconic legacy if it became known that his top assistant over all these years was a child molester, who had founded a charitable foundation to give himself easier access to his victims. (I’m told that, at Sandusky’s retirement banquet, the normally gregarious Paterno spoke for less than a minute at this tribute to a man who had worked at his side for 33 years).
On the other side, we have Scott Paterno, Joe’s son, claiming in the New York Times that Paterno didn’t know about the 1998 investigation. (The Times might have noted that in 1996 Scott Paterno opined that, "the President of the United States is a felon. In my opinion, President Clinton, at the very least, conspired to commit murder at least 56 times."). Paterno himself has said nothing on the matter, and the statement he released yesterday is obviously phrased to allow him to eventually acknowledge that he did know about the 1998 investigation ("the nature and amount of charges are very shocking to me").
In any event Paterno did acknowledge in his grand jury testimony that he’s known since at least 2002 that Sandusky was a child molester, although incredibly enough now he’s even trying to walk back that admission. He testified that Mike McQueary told him he had seen Sandusky "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy" in the PSU football locker room showers (McQueary testified that he saw Sandusky anally raping the child). Now in his statement Paterno is trying to get people to believe that he was told that his 58-year-old lifelong friend and co-worker was doing something "inappropriate" to a ten-year-old boy in a shower, but that he had no idea it was anything all that bad: certainly not bad enough to cause Paterno — by far the most powerful person in the PSU AD and arguably the most powerful person on campus — to wonder why the only thing that happened to Sandusky was that he was told not to bring the kids he was raping into the locker room any more (Sandusky retained all his access privileges to the campus until yesterday, and indeed was running football camps for young boys on Joe Paterno’s hallowed football field until two years ago).
This disgusting and horrifying spectacle is among many other things a cautionary tale about what can happen to someone when you indulge his selfishness and egomania to the extent that PSU in particular and the national sports media in general have indulged Paterno’s over the past few years. For quite some time now, Paterno hasn’t even pretended to perform many of the tasks any other head coach at a major college football program is expected to do. He hasn’t gone on a recruiting visit in nearly five years, and his season he’s spent most games high up in the press box rather than on the sidelines, while not even being in electronic contact with his staff, who are making all the in-game decisions that a head coach normally makes. He is in terms of actually doing his job a pathetic figurehead, performing it in name only, so that he can continue to pile up whatever "records" the media credit him with.
But Paterno isn’t a figurehead in terms of holding onto his job, as opposed to actually performing it. The Sandusky grand jury investigation has been going on for more than two years. It provided the perfect opportunity for the powers that be at PSU to nudge Paterno out the door, but he wouldn’t go, even with the firestorm that’s now finally broken hanging over his head. He’s a crazy old man who isn’t going to quit until either someone fires him or he dies with his boots on. He’s been living a lie for years now, and in the end it’s led to him trying to weasel-word his way out of his complete failure to do what he could to make sure that Jerry Sandusky didn’t continue to rape little boys. Joe Paterno was once an admirable figure to the extent football coaches can be admired, but when faced with a genuine moral crisis nine years ago he failed utterly. He’s become a fraud and a disgrace, and should be treated as such.
by froggiebaby on Nov 7, 2011 1:10 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
powerful
the culture of cronyism within the PSU football program certainly helped cause this problem. The fact that Sandusky was still working with 10-year old kids at football camps in 2009 is disgraceful. Anyone who could have done anything to stop that and did not is partially culpable.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Nov 7, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Lets be honest here. Yes, its disgraceful. But, you know what else is? The fact that he was working with kids directly through his charity the Second Mile.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
So that raises a question -
Wouldn’t The Creep have had to pass periodic psychological evaluations like any person who works with kids? …or at least one when he started Second Mile?
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
exactly
the type of professionals that were “fooled” that Joe alluded to in his statement last night.
Fire Dan Snyder
Point is
He wasn’t using Penn State to target those boys. He was using his fucking charity. That makes me sick.
And lets be clear, the Curly and Shultz are every bit as disgraceful and should be thrown in a cell to rot.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
But Paterno isn’t a figurehead in terms of holding onto his job, as opposed to actually performing it. The Sandusky grand jury investigation has been going on for more than two years. It provided the perfect opportunity for the powers that be at PSU to nudge Paterno out the door, but he wouldn’t go, even with the firestorm that’s now finally broken hanging over his head. He’s a crazy old man who isn’t going to quit until either someone fires him or he dies with his boots on.
That’s pure trash. Joe can’t win. If he left a year ago or two years ago then the narrative today is that he got out before the shit hit the fan, today he is still here and people are calling for him to resign and the narrative is that Joe resigns in disgrace.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
by EREX21 on Nov 7, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That entire article was pure trash.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Its clear the author had an axe to grind
And the focus was JoePa and Penn State. And actually, that sickens me. That no talent ass clown is using the rape of little boys to make his point about JoePa. Let that sink in.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
So, he basically encourages Joe/the University to take the coward's way out.
My theory, on the other hand, is that Joe fought to stay so he could face the fire. I prefer altruism.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
this reads more as a harsh opinion piece than anything of actual fact
calling someone a “crazy old man” kind of refutes anything of reason that may be buried in this piece. Also, saying that Joe knew anything of the 1998 investigation is a huge stretch. Yes, State College is a small town, but the police force does not spend time openly advertising an investigation on someone unless there are formal charges, but there not, as we know now, there should have been.
I have reported someone for abuse before after witnessing it and worked in a very small town (4,000 people max) and in a small organization (10 people total) and I can tell you not one person, besides my boss and myself and the superior I reported it to knew anything of it until charges were presented.
by mleepsu08 on Nov 7, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
if everybody knew these crimes were taking place
there probably would never be a criminal to charge.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
"Hello, Mr. state police officer,
My name is MM and I need to report a rape. I informed my superiors but thought I should pass this on to you as well. " The only correct way to handle this.
by ncpsu on Nov 7, 2011 1:11 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
And the state police would have said,
You need to contact your local police department to report the crime.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
Which, if things went the way they were supposed to, should have occurred when he talked to Schultz
…as head honcho of said local police department.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Possibly, but at least he’d have done what was right. I’m not saying he should have called the Governor, but he should have let someone else know.
What part of
Reporting it to Shultz is not reporting it to the local police department? The fact that he is in charge of it?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He's in charge but he's not actually the police chief
It’s sort of like reporting a crime to the mayor of a town.
Eh... more like the Police Commissioner.
He may not be a uniformed officer, but he certainly has authority over the department.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Who, in theory should be able to lineup even MORE resources to get things done.
But didn’t.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok, say you witness a crime and call the cops, give them names, addresses etc, and nothing comes of it. You know exactly who did it and that it was a horrible crime. Do you just forget about it and go on with your life?
by ncpsu on Nov 7, 2011 1:23 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
What can you do?
Call a newspaper? They probably won’t do anything if they can’t corroborate it.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
What else do you do then?
Form a posse?
Dude, this situation plays out every day in major cities.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Nov 7, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And here we go again
They would tell you to report it to your local police.
…and we’ve come full circle.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Maybe, but at least you’d have actually tried. And how do you know the state police wouldn’t make a call and find out if this witness had been interviewed? You guys seem to believe that the staties would just ignore a report of child rape. I don’t think so.
Honestly
Ask yourself this. If you had gone to your local police station and filed a report about a crime you witnessed but otherwise didn’t pertain to you, would you follow up in 3 or 4 years, just to make sure it was properly investigated? Or would you trust that the police you reported it to did their job?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
I don't believe you can say that until it actually happens.
Just my belief.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
It takes more than 3 weeks to investigate a rape
And if he followed up in three weeks with Shultz, he’d get the same response he got the first time.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
Ok
So lets use that logic in this scenario.
You live in Howard County, MD. You witness a violent crime and call 911. The incident is over, so they tell you to file a report at your local police station. You do. Do you also call them back and file another report with them? Should you call the Feds too?
I understand the sentiment, but lets be realistic here.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Look, You just saw That happen, and you have got to know, if you have any kind of frickin sense, that it’s being covered up. Do I do something?, you bet your ass I do.
I hope you never have to find out
But the main point is that there is no reason to believe its being covered up. If there was a reason to belive that, I’m sure MM or JoePa would have done something. After all, they did something in the first place didn’t they?
The point is that you are examining a situation in which there is much more information available now than at the time. And using that crystal ball to say that you would have done things differently. You don’t think they would have too?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
...and if the kid doesn't corroborate McQueary's story, it dies.
It’s very sad to say, but it happens every day. You do whatever you can to help the prosecution (which they have done) but it’s no great surprise if nothing ever comes of a child abuse case.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
Exactly.
Until the AG’s office (or whoever) subpoenaed them to testify to the Grand Jury, they would have no knowledge of the investigation.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
Which is precisely
my point. MM let this hang for 6 years, nowing what he knew. Why?
Because he assumed people were doing their jobs.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Sounds reasonable.
It sucks, but that’s how long the courts take to move things through sometimes.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
Wow
We need to change. For the sake of our kids, this " thats the way it goes" mentality needs to end. NOW
It's not the mentality
It’s the fact that it happens. If you want people to stop thinking the legal system takes a long time to do things, or that things don’t get quietly handled…
… then stop doing it that way.
No civil system can survive if it relies on the populace doing more than they are required to.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
No, he’s just used to seeing how slow the legal system acts.
Or it could’ve been handled, and he was just never told.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
This investigation took 3 years.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
How long has something you don't have a physical or constant reminder of
Stayed at the top of your mind for 3-4-5 years?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Did you read what
he said he saw?? Sandusky was at the Lasch building until last week. Are you serious?
You didn't answer the question
What is your attention span on an issue like that without constant reminder?
You’re assuming the worst, that MM saw him all the time, without considering the possibility that Sandusky made sure he and MM were never in the same place at the same time. Hence no reminder.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
read the GJ testimony about what MM saw
THAT will stay on anyones mind forever. Does that answer your question?
You've never heard the term 'coping mechanism', have you?
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
It could
Or as a coping mechanism MM could have blacked it out
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
The fact that Curley and Schultz
Are going to trial over it may indicate that his details might be in question.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I’m certainly not saying he did. But cases in which people witness extreme violence happen all the time. And people find ways of coping with it. Some people black it out. Some people convince theirselves it was a dream. The human mind and psyche is an amazing thing.
The issue that I’m taking with a lot of what you are saying is that you present these facts as completely black and white. They aren’t. There is no matter of fact and there is no clear right and wrong (as it relates to the observer-MM in this case). Addressing it as otherwise will inevitably lead you to logical inconsistancies, pure speculation, and some fantasy thrown in (exactly how you would have reacted given the circumstances).
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
The facts are
A sexual predator was allowed access to young people for 9 years after it could have been stopped AND that more could and should have been done to stop him. I’m 99% sure that most people in this country will see this to be fact and that those involved will no longer be a part of PSU after this unfolds.
Ok
So what is your complaint about the Second Mile?
You know, a Charity that this man founded to help underpriveledged youth. Where he targetted the boys. If it was cool that he could work there, directly with them, why would PSU (specifically JoePa and McQueary) be concerned that an investigation hadn’t been satisfactorly completed?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wasn't aware that
anyone at 2nd mile witnessed a rape
Second Mile
supposedly had been told of the incident in 2002 and did nothing. Not one report. JS told them in 2008 he was being investigated and that’s when he was not involved with the program (supposedly). He didn’t retire till 2010. This is on them as well. And I can’t imagine they didn’t know either about the 1998 incident or suspect anything, etc. If people are going to point fingers at Penn State, then point them at Second Mile too. And the Second Mile people worked directly with the kids.
also,
rape occured on psu campus witnessed by psu employee. not 2nd mile building or 2nd mile employee.
2nd mile events
And the actions were done upon 2nd mile kids.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Ok, blame second mile.
Thats completely logical
As logical as blaming Joe or MM.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This
is how things like this get institutionalized. Everyone makes an excuse why they looked the other way. This type of thinking needs to stop. Psu is forever changed, it sucks, and could have been prevented. Everyone involved needs to go for the sake of the U. Make all the excuses you want, but the fact that AT LEAST 8 kids lives are ruined and a lot of that could and should have been prevented. Done
by ncpsu on Nov 7, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You mean like
They could have reported it to the Second Mile, who could have removed him from contact with children? Oh, you mean they did that? And the Second Mile didn’t pursue it? Well. Shit.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have been writing scathing posts
On the Second Mile Diaries all day too. Just because somebody else is to blame too doesn’t mean we shouldn’t examine our responsibility.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
I concur
I’m not trying to pass the responsibility. In all of this debate, I was trying to really determine what the responsibility of everyone involved was. I’m still not 100% sure.
But I’m also not going to pretend like everything exists in a vacuum.
Should JoePa have reported it to the Police via child protective services. Maybe. I’m willing to consider that, but I’m not ready to pass a full judgement on anything just yet.
However, I tend to be contrarian when faced with absolutes, especially revisionist absolutes disected in 20/20 hindsight.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
Or alternatively
If in the meeting 3 weeks later Curley and Schultz tell him “Listen, we looked into it, but at this time we don’t have enough evidence to make a case, we’ve taken these steps (the child ban and reporting him to Second Mile) and consider the case closed.”
He would have no reason to pursue 6 years later if he trusted Curley and Schultz to have done their due diligence.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
If procedure is followed, as it likely would
They’ll tell you to follow the chain of command and report it to local police.
Staties would almost certainly ignore something your local police already have.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
It doesn’t matter what they would/ wouldn’t do. We know MM never followed up because he didn’t mention it in the GJ report. He should have, that’s all I’m saying.
You don't think he knows that now?
For God’s sake – everybody in this mess who had the opportunity to act but didn’t must feel like they’re personally responsible now.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
Like I said above, though...
I don’t know how that would affect their credibility as witnesses at this point, so I’m not going to demand statements or apologies.
Patience sure is difficult sometimes…
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
I wish they would too
And maybe they will. Honestly, I believe they eventually will- but right now isn’t necessarily the right moment.
And lets be clear, JS hasn’t been convicted yet. So maybe they are waiting until he is officially convicted to release statements.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
And THEY ARE NOT
The only people who are responsible are Curley, Schultz, and Sandusky. They had the responsibility to act, and they did not.
For the others, they didn’t do anything wrong. It’s just a modified version of survivor’s guilt – you got stuck in a bad situation, so you feel you must have been able to do something else.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
....er... the first two had the responsibility to act
The last guy’s just a creep.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, he had a responsibilty to act.
You can get yourself chemically castrated if you find you’re attracted to little boys.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
If MM didn’t realize this was being swept under the rug, he’s too damn dumb to be a football coach. Didnt he realize this creep would continue this sick-ass behavior? I’d be screaming!!
by ncpsu on Nov 7, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
how was he supposed to "realize" this?
Obviously, in hindsight, it’s different. But at that moment, how was he to know it wasn’t a one-off? As per HBeach’s post above, and LaVar Arrington’s blog post today, NONE of these guys expected this. They were all fooled. If they didn’t expect the first time, is it really that much of a stretch for one guy to think, as he’d reported to whomever he was supposed to, it was investigated and possibly found to have insufficient evidence? What evidence do you have to show MM knew it happened more than once?
Fire Dan Snyder
Jurisdiction, dude.
PSP sends a report to the locals. PSP becomes involved only when requested by locals or when there are no locals and the PSP agrees to cover a territory.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Nov 7, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"Do you just forget about it and go on with your life?"
That’s probably what the great majority of people would like to do…
Yes, that’s sad, but it’s sad because it’s true.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
Which is exactly why we are in this position. And I can’t understand why people don’t see that now.
by ncpsu on Nov 7, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rally round the Family!
or what’s left of it by Saturday. Welcome to unhappy valley Nebraska. You couldn’t of come at a better time. We’ve had a week off to heal, 4 hours to booze, and due to recent unfolding events, we are pissed the F*#% off! We guarantee to do a far better job at welcoming you to the B10 than our conference mates cause’ you gonna feel the PAIN!
by penntatefan on Nov 7, 2011 1:47 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Fucking A, Bubba!
Let’s not lose sight of why BSD is here.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rumor mill: Urban Meyer has purchased a home in Boalsburg.
Per WKPS:
http://twitter.com/#!/TheLION907fm/status/133597712879845376
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Rumor #2
His daughter is going to PSU to play volleyball.
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
I thought that was confirmed?
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
could be
I’m not plugged in to the rumor mill as well as others
An army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horses**t. --Patton
Debunked
Ben tweeted something to that effect.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
I'm willing to let it go a little longer
The only ‘debunk’ I read was a guy who said his friend works in the registry of deeds and said it hasn’t happened. But if he agreed to buy a house and hadn’t filed the paperwork yet that person likely wouldn’t know it yet.
I would like for this to be true. While I don’t think that Joe should step down for this, I’ve felt for a while this may be his last year and I’ve heard rumblings from within that Meyer is very legitimately a candidate with legitimate interest. In that respect this is believable to me.
But I fully acknowledge this could be some bored idiot calling a radio station.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I've read a lot of theories/rumors that Meyer would come here over OSU because of the NCAA violations
Let’s suppose that’s the case: after this weekend, why would he want to come here? We’re not looking at NCAA violations, we’re looking at something much, much worse.
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
No, really, you're not
Realistically, Curley’s getting replaced, and there will be a bunch of policy changes at PSU. Their reputation might get hurt a little, and Spanier might get axed as well.
But really, this only has a tangential connection to the football program. Sandusky was 3 years removed from being a coach.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
True or not, the media is going to portray this as a top-down cover-up of child abuse by a former employee
How is that not worse that an NCAA violation?
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
Because it was reported by a GA, through the football coach
It’s hard to claim that the football program is covering anything up when they’re the ones who reported it.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Because it won't limit his ability to build a competitive team.
It’s Urban Meyer, he’ll recruit fine, he isn’t losing scholarships or bowl eligibility. The people connected to this will be gone. Kids that want to go to a good school under a great coach will still lead at the opportunity.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No NCAA violations
And I suspect that even if found innocent, the people connected to it will be gone. And I’m not certain that he’s the sort that will care much about a spectre hanging around after. He’ll have a clean house.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Actually,
What about the part where he was still a coach and promised a kid a spot on the team?
Sounds like a recruiting violation to me
I believe it was a preferred walk on spot
not a schollie. Dont know if that changes things.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
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Not necessarily
An ex coach promising walk-on spots on the team is not exactly an NCAA violation. But thats besides the point. He did that to try and violate a young boy. Thats sickening.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
Yeah
at this point I dont give a shit about NCAA violations.
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A walk on spot.
Highly doubtful the NCAA will even bother looking into that.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Plus it wasn't a scheme to increase the competive ability of the team
It was a scheme to rape a child.
No way NCAA holds PSU accountable for that.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
ok
I’m just assuming all of this is craziness of people involved making up things until proven otherwise.
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Now they're saying he's "leasing" property.
Which wouldn’t show up in a title search.
Whatever.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
He's got himself a van down by the river.
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
by DrewRusse on Nov 7, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
WTF moment of this whole ordeal?
Did anyone see Wetzel’s tweet about Sandusky being seen lifting on campus multiple times last week?
by STU Boy on Nov 7, 2011 2:24 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
that fact is absolutely mindblowing
if it is true. And if it is, Curley and Schultz should…I dont even know at this point. Something should happen to them.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, and it raises a really disturbing question
Why would anyone in school (from Spanier on down) be okay with him still being on campus after a) the 2002 incident, b) the GJ investigation eralier this year? At what point is enough enough?
"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"
by DrewRusse on Nov 7, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
SANDUSKY SCANDAL PRESS CONFERENCE (7 November 2011 – approximate time 1317 hours)
REPORTER: Was that the extent of Mr. Paterno’s responsibility, just to report it to his superiors, as opposed to reporting it, as well, to the police?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: "We believe that under the statute, he had an obligation to report it to the SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS, and he did that!!!"
by nxk146 on Nov 7, 2011 2:25 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Patriot-News reporting that Gov. Corbett will address BOT at Friday meeting.
Dan Wetzel reporting that Sandusky was working out in PSU weight room THIS WEEK.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 2:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
So it is true...
Dear God, everyone must go now.
by STU Boy on Nov 7, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Clean house.
It’s the only way to stop the bleeding.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Nov 7, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It doesn't solve anything.
All it does is make it look like you’re trying to offer up sacrificial lambs.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Okay, let everyone keep their jobs. Change some policies. Fixes everything!
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I didn't say fire *no one*
You get rid of the guys who actually did something wrong.
Who should they fire? Everyone? The janitor? You? You cover Penn State sports – clearly you’re part of the problem!
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Clean house doesn't mean clean out the Liberal Arts Building.
It means those participants charged with oversight, enforcement, and so on.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
And the people who, y'know, actually reported the incident?
Instead of covering it up?
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Collateral damage.
Listen, I love MM and JP as much as anyone. But, to the extent they stay, the taint of this horrible series of events remains.
Pay their contracts, help MM find a coaching position elsewhere, but for the slate to be wiped clean, it must be wiped clean.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Nov 7, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Right!
So fire everyone on Black Shoe Diaries! They cover Penn State football, so so long as they remain, they’ve heard about this horrible series of events, and so they must go too!
Honestly, you’re really not making any sense. Getting rid of the GA who reported the incident? That doesn’t make things seem any better. It makes it seem as if you’re trying to shut him up.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
And you're doing a poor job of following along.
It means those participants charged with oversight, enforcement, and so on.
MM is collateral, unfortunately.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
Joe's not in charge of oversight and enforcement
So clearly he’s the “so on.” So you get rid of everyone associated with it? Ban the victims from Penn State too? Burn down the Lasch building, get rid of Spanier… damn it, have to get rid of the PR person who announced stuff on Friday… plus there were people at Penn State who gave interviews about it, they’ve gotta go too…
I really, really honestly have no idea why you think getting rid of McQueary would do anything except make Penn State look worse. I can understand how people think getting rid of Paterno would make them look better, but they’re nuts – scapegoating to try to shove something under the rug never works.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You can't "fire" anyone on Black Shoe Diaries.
They are all amateur bloggers.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
by PSU_Buch on Nov 7, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, I'm an amateur handyman around the house
and my wife has fired me several times over the years. Then she calls in the professionals.
Yup!
It makes as much sense as firing the guy who did what he was supposed to do.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
If this is true
They just need to act now, as this is beyond defensible on every level. What a freaking shame that they couldn’t even do something as minor as banning this guy from the weight room.
by STU Boy on Nov 7, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's the story.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=dw-wetzel_sandusky_penn_state_presence_last_week110711
Sandusky remained a presence around Penn State last week
By Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports
Embattled former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky continued to be a presence around the Penn State football program up to his arrest Saturday on child molestation charges, including working out multiple times in the team’s weight room just last week, according to multiple sources within the football program.
The sources, who asked to remain unnamed due to the nature of the scandal, said they saw Sandusky working out in the Lasch Football Building last week.
Penn State said it banned Sandusky from bringing children to the football building after a then graduate assistant reported he saw the then 59-year-old coach and a 10-year-old boy in the shower of the football team’s locker room.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This
This is not good. I mean, I understand innocent until proven guilty but come on, wasn’t anybody thinking about how this would/could look? Holy hell.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
by jman07 on Nov 7, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
seriously
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wasn't he?
As per Curleys self proclaimed unenforcable rule?
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“Hey Jerry, we appreciate what you did in your time here and all the work you put into the Second Mile but you probably should stay away from the campus for awhile, at least until we start figuring out just what all is going to come from this whole situation.”
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
by jman07 on Nov 7, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The AG findings didn't get released until Friday, right?
And they were leaked. Yes, they knew about the GJ, but do you think they figured that the results were going to be heinous? They acted after he was arrested. With his Emeritus status, I don’t know how they handle banning him.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
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by Paige2PSU on Nov 7, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Regardless
After the story about Paterno testifying in March or whenever it was, someone has to have enough sense to say “Hey Jerry, think you mind staying low for a little, just in case?” I mean, this just makes too much sense.
by STU Boy on Nov 7, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If the testimony was sealed, then no one can tell Jerry
lest he or she be charged with contempt for violating the Court’s order.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Nov 7, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You can tell a guy to steer clear for a little until the dust settles. This happens all over the place.
by STU Boy on Nov 7, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Right
This also goes to questioning Joe’s role in this whole thing. I mean, regardless of whether Joe knew or not if he was in there, it looks bad on Joe and even worse for Penn State.
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why?
Because he goes to the same University?
I really have no effing clue why everything associated with Penn State reflects on Joe Paterno. You think he’s got an office covered with monitors and cameras in every portion of the Lasch building?
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The team weight room
Is his responsibility. He is the coach, he can tell who can and who cannot be there.
by STU Boy on Nov 7, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I doubt he can.
Sounds like an administrator’s job. Of that he is not.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ding.
That’s what I think. Some people have this huge, gigantic opinion about what Joe knows and is capable of.
Me, I think he’s the guy that goes and watches the team practice, gives kids some pointers, and then talks with some of the other coaches about the kids.
I don’t think he pays attention to things like who goes in the weight room. Guy’s 80+ years old. He ain’t Superman.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Can't he see the weight room from the windows in his office?
It’s been many years since I had the opportunity to walk through it, but I recall windows facing out beyond his conference table/whatever the table was.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
Perhaps.
I cannot remember exactly what each face.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
I haven't been in it, I'm just going off pictures and stories
so you’re probably close than I am anyway.
Fire Dan Snyder
Because he is the head coach
and therefore the most visible person in the case. So when people look for a scapegoat, he’s the easiest target. Perception is that a head football coach knows everything and anything that goes on in his program.
On a smaller scale but the same reason that Tressel took the fall at O$U. It wasn’t all his doing but he was out in front of it so he got to go.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
by jman07 on Nov 7, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sucks he's the most visible
He had, potentially the smallest role in all of this out of anyone in that indictment.
People keep relating this as a football issue but it’s not.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Exactly
And honestly, there’s not much of a leg to stand on for the University to ask Joe to go.
Seriously, think about it.
PENN STATE: Joe, I think it’s time for you to retire. This whole Sandusky scandal is just too much.
PATERNO: But… I told you guys about it almost ten years ago. You told me you’d handle it.
PENN STATE: Well, yeah… but those guys just got arrested. We’re different.
PATERNO: So… you’re telling me to leave because you can’t do your job, and I can?
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
A kid got raped in his locker room.
It reflects on Joe Paterno. How he handles that reflects on him. He didn’t even ban the guy from the weight room? Come on.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
by jesse. on Nov 7, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Can Joe ban people?
I think we’re making an assumption there, Joe does not own the building. I think a school administrator has the right to ban, not Joe. I think a lot more people have access to that room than you think, and because of that, it doesn’t reflect on Joe, you’re putting too much responsibility in his hands, in this occasion, he is only the HC and this is NOT a football problem.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
It doesn’t have to be a formal “ban.” I mean, high school baseball coaches can tell kids to get the hell of the locker room and never come back without a formal ban. Let’s be real here.
by STU Boy on Nov 7, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Kids don't have standing as retired faculty.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
That's fair
Honest answer, do you think if Joe told someone who used to be on the staff to not come to the weight room, would they show up again?
Who's to say that he didn't?
What’s Joe supposed to have done? Told the team to throw The Creep out on his ass if he showed his face around Lasch? That wouldn’t get him sued in short order…
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
I just want to know when exactly
Joe lost all power.
What complaint?
That Joe told him to stay out of the Lasch Building and he doesn’t like it?
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
Curley.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Determine's his legal right to be there?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
And when he figures out that he does...
then what does he do?
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Potentially deny the ban and let him back into the gym?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Tell him to stay the hell away from the gym
Or I’ll tell people why. I don’t understand why you think accused pedophiles get to sue you for calling them an accused pedophile.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Yeah
But you don’t lose your legal rights to things until you’re a convicted pedophile.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Pretty sure that’d be damn self-incriminating for Curley, since Curley would be saying “stay away, or I’ll tell people you’re an accused pedophile, even though I didn’t tell the police, which.. oh, crap, that’s against the law, isn’t it.”
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
And that's why
I wish Penn State was roasting him over a damn fire.
by Bleed Blue 'n White on Nov 7, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
My guess would be to whatever dean handles relations with retired faculty.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
I would hope so.
The problem is that I don’t know what Paterno would be able to say about the 2002 incident, his Grand Jury testimony, etc. I’d like to think that Paterno could just refer that person to Schultz, but then if Schultz said there wasn’t a corroborating statement from the kid and the matter was dropped, there’s no reason to ban The Creep other than Joe’s wishes…
In short, I don’t know a lot of things. I just know that I’m withholding judgement until I have more facts.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
Joe can probably kick his own players out
But he has 0 authority over Sandusky, hasn’t had any since 1999. Whomever can ban him, would probably be the same person that granted him access at his retirement, the administrators, probably Curley.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well this is clearly in Joe's domain and at this point Joe knows something happened with Sandusky
It looks badly on him. Not saying rightfully so, but does regardless. Maybe Sandusky was in there at 1 in the morning when no one else was and Joe never saw him. I dont know. I do know it makes it look terrible for Joe and 10x as bad for Curley/Spanier/the university
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm unsure of procedure
But… would Jerry have even known that there was a GJ investigation going on? And would anyone have been allowed to even hint that maybe he should lay low without putting themselves in criminal dangers?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He knew.
The fact that there was a GJ was leaked last year or earlier this year.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Nov 7, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Would banning him open the school up to a slander or libel law suit if he hadn't yet been actually charged with anything?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
BUT IT WAS JUST LAST WEEK AND NOW WE KNOW HE WAS GUILTY LAST WEEK SO HE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ALLOWED ON CAMPUS!!!!!111!!!!!!!ONE!!
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You'd care...
especially if it tainted the prosecution’s case in the criminal trial.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
A university which has to raise tuition more and more each year?
I think they would begin to lose more students by raising tuition again to pay for their cash hemoragging legal department deciding to just take the action that would cause people to sue, than the number of students they would lose if they just let him continue to use the weight room until they could legally evict him from it.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
If this is a serious question, you need to stop commenting on legal issues.
by Chris Grovich on Nov 7, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely
Immediately after you edit your article yesterday stating how premature you were to question Joe’s actions before said actions were even known. Lemme know when you you’ve done your part sir.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Nov 7, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why not?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Libel has to be written.
It has to be untrue. It has to come from a source that you would otherwise believe, and be malicious and not done in good faith.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Sure, but wouldn't a banning require some sort of written document that all would have access to?
To make it enforceable?
And wouldn’t spreading “Banned for suspicion of child abuse” be reputation damaging if passed along to people unaware of the situation but in a position to enforce gym rules?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
It would have to be published.
And motivated by an intent to damage him. It wouldn’t be libel. Not even a little bit.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
I agree with your point Paige
I mean, there probably isn’t too much they can do. They probably should have had a conversation with him, suggesting that maybe he stay away for awhile.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
SANDUSKY SCANDAL PRESS CONFERENCE (7 November 2011 – approximate time 1317 hours)
REPORTER: Was that the extent of Mr. Paterno’s responsibility, just to report it to his superiors, as opposed to reporting it, as well, to the police?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: "We believe that under the statute, he had an obligation to report it to the SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS, and he did that!!!"
by nxk146 on Nov 7, 2011 2:28 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Easy killer. We got that the first time.
"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still
by jman07 on Nov 7, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
With this being asked of the Attorney General, and the Attorney General responding ...
This keeps the sole responsibility of what happened (the cover up) on the shoulders of CURLEY and SCHULTZ. These 2 had the obligation to report the issue. JOEPA had the obligation (statutory) to report it to school administrators, which he did when he told his supervisor TIM CURLEY and the VP SCHULTZ!!!!
Cut the rotten spots from the PSU APPLE!!!! The rotten spots of the PSU APPLE are CURLEY and SCHULTZ!!!!!! No one else!!!! Maybe President Spanier, but who knows there!!!!
Board has to clean house and hire a premiere coach....fast!
by '85Fan on Nov 7, 2011 2:29 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
hey
no fair reusing posts from last year!
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by skarocksoi on Nov 7, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
But the same great nougaty center!
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if sandusky was there last week working out around our young players then that is it...
How can McQ earn the trust of parents who have to entrust their kids to the program when
Sandusky is there working out last week… after we know thru testimony what he saw… this is a new disclosure that is just crazy..
by '85Fan on Nov 7, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
does Joe or McQ have any say in barring him from the facility?
Obviously you would assume especially McQ wouldn’t want him there, period. But does Spanier make those decisions or is it someone else?
by mleepsu08 on Nov 7, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think Joe or McQ has any jurisdiction there
I would have to believe it would be Curley or Spanier that has to make that decision. Joe and McQ are not administrators.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I feel bad for McQ but he can probably get another good job elsewhere as most others
save for Curley and Schultz and perhaps Spanier…
I bet if I went into the Lasch building and started working out
they could find a way to ban me.
by PSU Mudder on Nov 7, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Someone would
That doesn’t mean Joe or MM would be the person to do it.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
you say they are YOUNG PLAYERS ....
But, the players are ADULTS, they are 18 years and older!!!! Now with that said, if there were any players there, they should have kicked Sandusky, but that is another thing entirely!!
Anyway, Sandusky molested YOUNG kids, not adults that are 18 and older!!!!
Taking a step back ...
well, this is where people need to take a step back from their emotions, and realize WHO is at COLLEGE!!!! The students that are at college are ADULTS that are 18 and older!!!!
you say they are YOUNG PLAYERS ....
But, the players are ADULTS, they are 18 years and older!!!! Now with that said, if there were any players there, they should have kicked Sandusky, but that is another thing entirely!!
Anyway, Sandusky molested YOUNG kids, not adults that are 18 and older!!!!
A question just occurred to me.
Sorry if already asked, but if Victim #2 (the boy in the shower) has never been found and no parent filed a complaint, how did that information reach the grand jury? Presumably from Penn State witness testimony — MM, Joe, Curley, Schultz, or Spanier?
Board can save the football program years of problems by acting swiftly....
They should work to get Joe on board…. Hire new coach and move on… for the good of the program at this point.
SANDUSKY SCANDAL PRESS CONFERENCE (7 November 2011 – approximate time 1317 hours)
REPORTER: Was that the extent of Mr. Paterno’s responsibility, just to report it to his superiors, as opposed to reporting it, as well, to the police?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: “We believe that under the statute, he had an obligation to report it to the SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS, and he did that!!!”
Heard you the first two times...
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 7, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well ....
Maybe people should talk about that, because, it clearly shows, from PATERNO on down, everyone did what needed to be done!!
Schultz and Curley needed to take the ACTION, and they DID NOT DO IT!!!!!
I'm gonna have to agree with leeharvey here
Even though I get your point and I’m not against it. You’re trolling at this point.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
The AG seems very excited.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
Only about school adminstrators, though...
That seems like an odd fascination to me.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
It may be a voice modulation problem a'la Phil Hartman's character on SNL.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
Admit it -
You went to law school because you wanted to become Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
This new Penn State world confuses and frightens me.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
I think we're all a little confused and frightened these days.
At least we have family to help us cope.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
Have you ever heard of someone having an undue fascination with school adminstrators?
I surely haven’t.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
Isn't she a Pitt grad.
She may just be trying to torpedo Penn State's reputation and ruin the rest of our football season.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
I think you need to create a new thread
for all of the speculation, finger-pointing and outrage. This one is full of it.
I think people are making Joe out to be worse than Sandusky
For the record, if there is a hierarchy of blame here, Sandusky is Everest, Curley and Schultz are Mount Nittany and Joe Paterno is speed bump.
All the talk of “Joe should have done more” is out there for no otehr reason than to try and tarnish the otherwise clean legacy of a great coach and man. Its not just people here, its the media as well.
Centralizing the discussion around “Joe Paterno didnt do enough” misplaces blame and distracts the attention away from the absolute disgusting idiots who have done far worse in this situation. Joe notified the only man with authority over Sandusky at the time as well as the head of the police department in charge of the jurisdiction where the assault allegedly took place. If you dont think this is enough, then good for you. You find yourself in the unique position of being someone who would do things differently than someone else.
But honestly, let’s take a step back for a second and think of the big picture. A man allegedly ruined the lives of at least 8 children and disgraced a University. Why we are trying to determine the nuances of what else Joe Paterno could have done is beyond me.
by swiggy04 on Nov 7, 2011 3:33 PM EST reply actions 10 recs
Well said
I agree. But I will answer your question anyways. Because its an interesting debate. What is the role of the casual observer? Where is the line between alerting the authorities and expecting them to do their jobs and becoming Batman?
Its interesting because the moral line isn’t sharp in this area. Its very fuzzy and zigzagy. We all know where we’d like it to be, but we really don’t know where it actually is until confronted with a situation that tests it.
'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'
by psuphysicist on Nov 7, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I dunno my point is just we shouldnt waste energy on this
Joe heard a ship was sinking and called the coast guard. Whether you, personally, would have instead called the Navy or chartered a private yacht to find survivors is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
by swiggy04 on Nov 7, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
All the talk of "Joe should have done more" is out there for no otehr reason than to try and tarnish the otherwise clean legacy of a great coach and man. Its not just people here, its the media as well./blockquote>
I cannot disagree enough. I’m calling for Joe to go over this, or that he should be prosecuted, but his statement of not knowing the specifics does not add up.
He didn’t have to do more, but he should have.
by Mr. Rosewater on Nov 7, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
That's ok
So does your opinion!
SLightly sarcastic.
lulz
Point being, I think you can criticize him for not doing more without seeming like you want to tarnish his image.
Oy, double negative! But whatever.
by Mr. Rosewater on Nov 7, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
i tried to clarify the image tarnishing portion below
if you want to criticize him based on your own moral notions of what is “enough,” i mean thats up to you. But that the whole discussion nationally and here is being completely centered around it it a misallocation where our anger and disgust should be directed.
by swiggy04 on Nov 7, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Completely agree
With both Rosewater and Swiggy. I just keep feeling so much of this anger toward Paterno should be reserved for Sandusky, Curley, and Schultz who had a much larger role. If Paterno feels inside that he could or should have done more, I ams ure that hurts him more than anything else.
and meant to say, "I'm NOT calling for Joe to go..."
Sorry, got a cold. Can’t think. NOt that I want to now anyway.
by Mr. Rosewater on Nov 7, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
i understood your block quote
though at first i thought i disagreed with myself.
by swiggy04 on Nov 7, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
and i should clarify
that first sentence i meant from a national media/rival blogger perspective. Not anyone at this blog.
I did the same thing
talking from a PR perspective rather than a fan’s
by Mr. Rosewater on Nov 7, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Why don't they add up?
What specifics did he absolutely need to know?
All McQueary had to do was relate a very vague message that he caught Sandusky doing something inappropriate and sexual in the shower. That was it, and it sounds like that message was relayed and Joe went about getting the meeting with Schultz (aka headhoncho of UP Police) and Curley, his superior. Is it out of the realm of possibility that reporting to Schultz he felt would be better than calling the police directly?
Up to this point, without the facts we can’t say Joe could have done more in a moral sense, he might have done well over the legal minimum at this point, in someways up to this point he may have done the maximum he could or knew how to do (we don’t know if he knew about CYS).
The up in the air part is what he did after really, and we don’t know a whole lot of anything about that. That is what needs to be determined.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Specifically that he didn't know the specifics
If the GJ is ALL ENCOMPASSING, as in that is all there is to the story, then my opinion is yes, JoePa did very little.
But you’re right, I don’t know all the facts. I am worried though that these are the ONLY facts of the case.
I’m hoping they’re reserving JoePa’s story for the stand against the defense. Maybe that’s why his side of the story is so simple, if not seemingly apathetic.
by Mr. Rosewater on Nov 7, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think the GJ is even remotely encompassing
I mean, Curley reported the 2002 incident to the Second Mile. But I don’t see any GJ follow up on that, even though that is a hugely important piece of information, he used that organisation for 6 more years after that to molest children.
There is PLENTY left out of that document we won’t know until the trials.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Yeah, I couldn't discern whether the GJ and the Prosecution are one in the same entity.
by Mr. Rosewater on Nov 7, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, pretty much.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
GJ is never all encompassing
trust me, I’ve sat in on them when i was a federal clerk. First there is no defense and the accused isn’t present so everything is swayed in a bad light with no one to refute the evidence. Pretty much all witnesses called are the witnesses who are helpful to the case AGAINST the accused. Second the entire thing is inadmissible in court, so in order to get the answers they want the questions can be as tilted and as leading as they want.
I’m not saying that Sandusky is innocent or anything, but GJ testimony and its progeny are rarely, if ever, the full and complete record of what happened.
When the defense comes out and gives its statement we will all call it “spin” and “legal nonsense” but in reality, Grand Jury indictments are nothing more than spin in the other direction, its just coerced out of the mouths of the witnesses.
The vast majority of the unknown facts of this case
Are ones that Sandusky’s lawyer, as well as Curley’s and Schultz’s will make public in their defenses. Joe Paterno released a statement, the DA said he acted appropriately. I don’t think we’ll hear much more from Paterno on this.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
I disagree
I feel our conflict is what is legal obligation and what is moral obligation. The whole thing stinks.. This has nothing to do with any one individual and everything to do with the difference between what is right and what is wrong. My wise father told me " If it doesn’t sit right in your gut then it is wrong"
Hearing that a young boy was fondled doesn’t sit right in my gut. Joe did what he had to do legally but not morally. Period! No one did!
A question I had when hearing about prosecution
I obviously want Sandusky to be convicted of any wrong doing he had, but I am curious about the child in the shower that the GA saw. Didn’t they still say they don’t know who the child is? Can that be prosecuted just by the GA testimony then?
They won't get a conviction on that one count if they don't have the kid
You don’t have to be a lawyer to come up with a line of questioning for the GA that would plant doubt.
"It's not just linebackers. This is Penn State linebackers, man. We're a certain type. We've gotta be aggressive, relentless, focused. Don't talk. Don't talk at all. We don't showboat or anything. We just play hard and get the job done." -Khairi Fortt
Good question.
Maybe the publicity will bring the kid forward. He should be 18 or 19 now if MM’s estimate of him being 10 at that time was correct. If he doesn’t come forward then there’s no victim, is there?
That's what I was curious about
Good idea about trying to bring the guy forward. And I am sure they are trying to bring other people forward to, which for obvious reasons I hope there are none. I am just wondering if they could actually get a conviction on that without a person materializing.
Is it at all stereotypical
that a man named Schultz’s response was
“I KNOW NOSSING!”
by swiggy04 on Nov 7, 2011 3:51 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I simply don't have enough information
to say anything else about this. Accordingly, I will fall mute on the subject. But, before I do, I want to applaud Chris, jesse., MainLion, and the rest of our damn strong legal team for all of the informed analysis — for being willing to think out loud. You have helped me process this more intellegently.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
by SubLime on Nov 7, 2011 5:08 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I'd still like to hear the legal guys hypothesize on this:
If Victim #2 does not come forward or is not discovered, how can Sandusky, Curley, and Schultz be prosecuted? Doesn’t this particular charge seem like an attempt by the AG to get a victim to come forward, or is there actually some basis for action even without a victim?
I apologize if this has already been addressed. There are a lot of posts flying around and I may have missed it.
Not a legal guy but...
Curley and Schultz were required to report suspected child abuse and they didn’t. Even if the claim was false, they still had a legal obligation to report it from my understanding. So even without a victim to corroborate what the GA may have seen, their lack of action was criminal.
At least from my understanding anyway.
As for Sandusky, without the witness I would imagine that the case for this one isn’t particularly strong, but AG’s know they rarely hit on every charge. They still have 7 other victims listed, I don’t know how many of them they actually have.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Okay, I can buy that logic.
However, the failure to report charge is the lesser of the charges against Curley and Schultz (a summary offense, I believe). Any thoughts on the perjury charge, especially if the charges revolving around Victim #2 are dropped by the GA or thrown out? Much of the outrage directed toward Penn State revolves around the 2002 incident.
To clarify, I’m not hoping guilty people get off on technicalities. It’s just that right now I don’t see that charge sticking against Sandusky without a victim, and I’m simply wondering if the perjury charges then remain in effect. It is a purely legal question — I’m not excusing the morality issue.
My guess is that with the eye witness it's the strongest case.
In all of the other cases it’s one persons word against the other. Jerry Sandusky would make for a pretty credible witness especially if he is testifying against “troubled youth” who may or may not have gotten into other trouble in the past few years and have the possible motivation of a substantial civil suit against the University.
It’s not incomprehensible that he gets off. Unlikely, but not impossible.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
There not charged with anything relative to the abuse.
They violated a statute as it relates to reporting allegations of suspected child abuse. Under the statue as it was at the time of the crime it’s a summary offense. Essentially a really expense traffic ticket. I don’t believe that the “failure to report” is really in dispute, unless the someone believes that Schultz counts as the police. I’m skeptical, but whatever.
The perjury charge stems from the fact that the Grand Jury believed that Schultz and Curley lied in order to cover-up their failure to notify the authorities of the abuse.
Neither charge requires the sexual abuse victims to testify.
Works on contingency? No, money down!
Please read
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story//id/7203559/penn-state-nittany-lions-scandal-stuns-community/id/7203559/penn-state-nittany-lions-scandal-stuns-community" target="new">
Son.of.a.bitch
I’m beyond fed up with this and my work. I get home, fire up NCAA 2012 to resume my duties at PSU’s d coordinator to escape from it all, and immediately the ESPN broadcast pipes through at the main menu, talking about this shit.
I’m going Jeremiah Johnson on this crap. You guys need me, I’m going to be in the Rocky Mountains trapping game and living off the land.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
by 06Lion on Nov 7, 2011 5:48 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The bus is leaving ten minutes..
be under it.
I'm not rationalizing - I'm being totally irrational
by GoodOleDays on Nov 7, 2011 6:35 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
LOL!
+1 to you!
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
My take on the appropriate fallout
Obviously Sandusky spends his life in prison if convicted.
Curley and Shultz get major fines, loss of employment and potentially jail time for at least the failure to report the crime, and more if the perjury is proven.
Paterno and the GA lose their jobs.
I know many will disagree with my take on Paterno, but in the end he kicked the can up the road. He should have driven that GA to the police and supported him while he gave the statement. He should have said, “Son, this is too important to wait until tomorrow there could be more kids in danger.” If it was his child he would have. Joe was entrusted with the care of thousands of kids well being in his position, adults in age, but someones kid none the less. He should have made that child’s safety his primary concern as soon as he heard that account. Would any of us reacted differently than Paterno? maybe not, but in the end that does not excuse him from not doing the right thing. It may mean he was human and flawed like the rest of us, but he is still just as wrong.
by gshiler2 on Nov 7, 2011 8:27 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Curley and Shultz get major fines, loss of employment and potentially jail time for at least the failure to report the crime, and more if the perjury is proven.
Perjury will be easier to prove. Also, failure to report is not a crime punishable by jail time, IIRC. And there are questions as to whether the statute of limitations has expired on that count.
Fire Dan Snyder
One more time for the people in the cheap seats...
He should have driven that GA to the police
Schultz WAS the police as far as the University was concerned. Just because he wasn’t a uniformed officer doesn’t mean he didn’t represent the police department.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
by leeharvey418 on Nov 8, 2011 5:18 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I've just read 1000+ comments with my jaw agape.
And, aside from gshiler2, I can’t really say I’ve read anything by anyone that asserted that the welfare of the raped boys (and, of course, the idea that there were only 8 victims is profoundly ignorant) was more important than Joe Paterno’s reputation or Penn State’s reputation. I’m wondering why that is.
We play tackle football.
by Bellanca on Nov 7, 2011 10:47 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
You probably haven't read it because it's assumed by every reasonable person
We’ve been talking about this matter non-stop for 3 days now. The only thing worth discussing at this point are those topics worth debating. The fact that the welfare of the victims and potential future victims is paramount is well-established
ACCEPTS THE PAYPAL
Hello, everybody, coach get old, the new coach approaching, click in.
Welcome to http://www.pennlive.com
by newenglandnittanylion on Nov 7, 2011 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Yeah, if you're alleging
that by not including it in every comment in every thread that we were most disgusted by the violation of the young boys and their continued mental and physical welfare, then you have never before read or comprehended any sort of ongoing conversation about anything.
The conversation has shifted to a discussion of whose heads should roll behind this. It is pretty topical, since that decision is going to have to happen in the next days and weeks.
This is actually my first comment on BSD since the news broke. My first 10 would have been about the empathy I feel for the young kids and everyone else who were victimized, in varying degrees, by the situation – that is, if I wasn’t so heartbroken and mentally affected by those things.
But don’t do what you just did and make wholesale judgments based on the comments that YOU’VE personally read, 3 days into a completely gutting scandal. It’s insulting.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Nov 7, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Because we knew you would read it and we wanted to offend you.
Sit on it and spin, my friend.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Nov 7, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks to all the BSDers who contributed to this discussion
It’s been a rough few days for all of us in our capacities as members of the Penn State community. We’re all trying to make sense of everything, and a lot of us have wildly differing opinions. To be able to discuss these emotionally charged matters rationally and intelligently is a testament to the quality of the community here.
My opinions on the culpability of the various parties (other than Sandusky, of course) is still very much in flux. It’s possible, even likely, that Curley and Schultz are not liable for failure to report, since the abused child in question was not under the care or supervision of the University. They did, however, pass the allegations along to the CEO of the Second Mile, who was a mandated reporter, and who failed in his obligation to report. And yet, Curley and Schultz still lied to a Grand Jury about their knowledge of the incident.
And then, of course, there’s Joe. I still believe that every decision he made along the way was the product of his desire to do the right thing. The worst thing he could be guilty of is being faced with a few extraordinarily difficult judgment calls and making the wrong calls; at the moment, I don’t think he’s even guilty of that, but I could be wrong.
I have no shortage of sympathy for all those who have suffered from these events. At the moment, my thoughts are with Joe. It sounds like he was absolutely devastated by the Grand Jury report, and now he has to go out and face the withering scorn of the national media. I don’t know how he’ll muster the will to coach the rest of the season. But come hell or high water, I’ll be there this Saturday to show Joe and the rest of the staff the love they deserve in what will likely be their last game in Beaver Stadium.
ACCEPTS THE PAYPAL
Hello, everybody, coach get old, the new coach approaching, click in.
Welcome to http://www.pennlive.com
by newenglandnittanylion on Nov 7, 2011 11:58 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Interestingly enough
Second Mile is reporting that Curley didn’t tell them squat in 2002 when he says he did.
Still a lot to learn here.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
God bless you.
I’m starting to have a really hard time with this whole matter, and it’s good to know that there’s still one sane person in the world.
"I don’t know who to believe – A used car salesman or the OSU Chief of Compliance."
-rahpsu92
An awesome WHYY piece
by Elizabeth Fiedler just aired about this story. It was short but had two well spoken Penn State grads and was very fair. Can’t seem to find a podcast of it though, it was very short. I am sure they will replay it a couple times today.
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