The Sandusky Sex Abuse Scandal - A Week in Review
Just when you thought you had all the answers, they change the questions. In the early hours of Sunday morning, Sara Ganim, the Harrisburg Patriot-News reporter who has provided the most in-depth investigative coverage of the Jerry Sandusky scandal, reported that former Penn State assistant Mike McQueary's initial account of an alleged March 2002 sexual assault may have differed dramatically from both his grand jury testimony from earlier this year and a written statement he made to police last month.
In Sunday's article, Ganim recounts the grand jury testimony of Dr. Jonathan Dranov, identified as "a family friend and colleague of McQueary's father." Dranov was reportedly with the elder McQueary when the then-graduate assistant gave his first description of the events that transpired.
According to the source with knowledge of Dranov's testimony before the grand jury, it went like this:
McQueary heard "sex sounds" and the shower running, and a young boy stuck his head around the corner of the shower stall, peering at McQueary as an adult arm reached around his waist and pulled him back out of view.
Seconds later, Sandusky left the shower in a towel.
* * *
However, Dranov told grand jurors that he asked McQueary three times if he saw anything sexual, and three times McQueary said no, according to the source.
Because of that response, the source says, Dranov told McQueary that he should talk to his boss, head football coach Joe Paterno, rather than police.
As Ganim notes, Dranov's account is markedly different from the story told by the grand jury presentment, drafted by prosecutors in the Sandusky case. The 23-page presentment notes that McQueary "saw a naked boy . . . with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky." The story in the presentment matches the written statement that McQueary gave to police in mid-November, where he stated that "he witnessed a boy, about 10, being sodomized in a shower."
What does this all mean? Tim Curley and Gary Schultz were apparently adamant in the grand jury that McQueary only reported conduct that he felt was "inappropriate," and that they were never told of the graphic details of the grand jury presentment. Before his lawyer-recommended silence, Paterno maintained that he had never heard those explicit details either. Dranov's testimony lends real credence those versions of the story, and certainly should give pause to those condemning those three men.
Legally speaking, things could become very interesting in the near future. McQueary's testimony to the grand jury has been referred to as "highly credible," yet McQueary has at least three versions of the story that are entirely audience dependent. If Dranov's testimony is to be believed (and there's no reason to suspect he isn't credible), McQueary was very clear that he saw "nothing sexual" when telling his story within hours of the incident. Nine years later, McQueary's testimony to the grand jury appears to have been very different. Just a few weeks ago in an email to former teammates, McQueary mentions that he "did stop it" and "made sure it was stopped when [he] left that locker room." Does anyone see a way that those three accounts can be reconciled?
As Tennessee fan and newfound Penn State friend aurabass noted in the FanPosts, the perjury cases against Curley and Schultz are based entirely on the credibility of Mike McQueary. It now seems questionable as to whether those charges will even make it past the preliminary hearing scheduled for December 16th in Dauphin County.
However, the case against Sandusky is far greater than the testimony of eyewitness Mike McQueary. Even if the case built around McQueary's testimony collapses under the weight of impeachment, many of the accusers will take the stand against Sandusky. Barring extreme circumstances, that case will proceed the trial.
Dranov's testimony does give us confirmation on one very specific and extremely important issue. As has been mentioned numerous times by the BSD staff and community (and virtually ignored by the rest of the world), it is clear that the grand jury presentment is, at best, incomplete. McQueary apparently spoke with Dranov and his father just a short time after the alleged sexual assault took place in the Lasch Building showers, yet Dranov's name appears a grand total of zero times in the presentment.
This does not exculpate Tim Curley and Gary Schultz. It does not necessarily mean that Joe Paterno did more than what has been presented. It does indicate, however, that any information we have is incomplete and potentially rife with error. It is natural to attempt to cover the gaps, but we don't appear to have enough information for that either. As it's been since November 5th, the prudent move continues to be to reserve judgment on all parties until this moves forward in the legal system.
So, you think you've had a bad day? Sunday's report is just the latest in yet another news-filled week in the Sandusky saga. On Tuesday, we learned that eight of the alleged victims will testify at Sandusky's preliminary hearing on December 13th. On Wednesday, Sandusky was once again arrested and arraigned, this time on twelve new charges based on new grand jury testimony from two additional alleged victims. After spending the night in Centre County jail, Sandusky was released from the facility Thursday after posting the required $250,000 bail. He is under house arrest and is wearing an electronic ankle monitor.
Thursday was no better for the Penn State community, as the Big Ten Conference appeared to jump on the pile by issuing a statement that, depending on your outlook, was either the opening salvo of a possible disciplinary action or a meaningless public relations stunt. Either way, it was not very good for the already battered image of Dear Old State. Penn Staters received more bad news on Sunday when it was reported that former head football coach Joe Paterno had fallen and once again fractured his pelvis. The embattled 85-year old coach had broken his pelvis earlier in the year after a collision with receiver Devon Smith, and has recently been undergoing aggressive treatment for lung cancer.
Perhaps the only good news to come out of the week is that Franco Harris, a Nittany Lion legend and a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, was finally reinstated as the chairman of The Pittsburgh Promise scholarship foundation. Harris had essentially been forced out of his role after publically defending Paterno during the height of media scrutiny.
What's next? The cases against Sandusky, Curley, and Schultz move into their first active stages this week. On Tuesday, Sandusky will appear in Centre County Court for a preliminary hearing. A helpful primer on preliminary hearings can be found here. On Friday, preliminary hearings for the perjury charges against Curley and Schultz will take place in Dauphin County. Both will be interesting for dramatically different reasons. On Tuesday, it will be the first time that the alleged victims will be able to publically testify against Sandusky. On Friday, we will find out if the charges against Curley and Schultz stick. It promises to be another interesting week.
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great article
Very well framed and informed take on the new occurrences. There should be a ton more to discuss after the preliminary hearings this week.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 12, 2011 6:33 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
sort of off topic
But does Sara Ganim ever go home from the office? That woman is certainly working harder than any journalist I’ve ever met. Nights, weekends, it doesn’t matter. I hope she gets paid by the hour.
She'll get paid when the Times, WSJ or WP come calling
She’s killing it.
by kijana's acl on Dec 12, 2011 9:03 AM EST up reply actions
Ben Jones with a bumpy shirt?
What the hell just happened?
by Pete the Streak on Dec 12, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
I've never seen Sara Ganim wearing a cable-knit sweater...
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
every week...
feels like we just keep getting punched in the gut.
What a shitstorm of a year
I cant wait for this to end.
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#OccupyESPN
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Also
Is it possible that the GJ statement is an overexaggeration of the testimony MM presented to them, or is it really that his testimony changed that much?
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
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In another thread it was mentioned
that MM received a lot of coaching from the DA’s office.
He completed 17 of individuals 26 passes for 192 lanscaping your yard and two touchdowns - Chan Luu
The Curley/ Schultz charges have been Nifonged
Urban dictionary
Nifong (v): to fabricate evidence in order to build a legal case.
(I am paraphrasing. But who cares. It’s UrbanDictionary.com)
by PSUinOH on Dec 12, 2011 7:50 AM EST via mobile reply actions
As an attorney, I always thought the perjury charges would either "go away" or be unproven
The hearing on Friday will be very interesting to see if the judge allows the charges. The AG might actually be opened up to serious prosecutorial misconduct charges when this is all over.
Curley, Schultz, Spanier and JoePa can then all get in line behind Gary Condit, the Duke lacrosse players, and Richard Jewel to collect their apology from the national media.
Don't hold your breath
Apologies won’t happen. They will say their conclusions were based on available info.
Joe’s lawsuits against ESPN, PSU, PA, Corbett etc, etc will allow Joe to build a "Truth in Journalism" school at Temple.
by bluebellgolfer on Dec 12, 2011 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
As a non-attorney, I always thought they were asinine and evidence of an agenda and/or stupidity by the AG
They stemmed entirely from one facet (the level of explicitness) of one conversation that happened 9 years ago that wasn’t recorded or witnessed by anyone more than the 3 parties involved. Two guys say one thing was said, one guy says another.
There are only 3 logical possibilities:
1. The AG believes the charges could stick, and he’s right. This represents a serious flaw in the courts, as the evidence falls well short of “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” to anybody with a functioning brain.
2. The AG believes the charges could stick, and he’s wrong. In this case, the AG is an idiot who in no way understands the state’s burden of proof.
3. The AG knows the charges can’t stick, but brought them anyway. In this case, the AG is happy to drag 2 men and PSU through the mud by association, at taxpayer expense, for no meaningful legal end.
(1) implies a deeply, fundamentally flawed legal process, and a result contrary to the intent of the system. (2) implies complete incompetence, a level of incompetence I hope somebody couldn’t have and still graduate college, let alone law school, let alone achieve such a position of power. (3) implies an agenda against PSU.
GO IOWA AWESOME
by ckmneon on Dec 12, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
From what I heard
Part of why perjury charges were brought against Curley and Schultz is that their testimonies didn’t agree with each other, in addition to not agreeing with McQueary’s and Paterno’s. But I guess we’ll find out more on Friday.
Let's Go State!
by Gopher Broke on Dec 12, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
That definitely doesn't jive with the GJ presentment
Which said that the charges against Curley and Schultz exist solely because their testimony contradicted McQueary’s, and Paterno is completely meaningless to that discussion because all he did was set up a meeting with the three people.
GO IOWA AWESOME
To the first point, that's not the standard.
The AG believes the charges could stick, and he’s right. This represents a serious flaw in the courts, as the evidence falls well short of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" to anybody with a functioning brain.
The standard for the grand jury to return a true bill is “probable cause,” not “proof beyond a reasonable doubt.” If the latter was the standard, it’d be almost impossible to get any crime into a courtroom to begin with.
If the argument is that there was such a severe lack of evidence that no probable cause existed in order to charge Curley and Schultz, that’s a different matter entirely. But if the argument is that there wasn’t “proof beyond a reasonable doubt,” that’s not a flaw in the system. The system is designed for people to have their day in court and present a defense to a jury of their peers. That’s when the standard matters, not before it.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Slight disagreement...
The system is designed for people to have their day in court and present a defense to a jury of their peers.
No, the system is designed so that the prosecution must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden does not rest with the defendant to “prove” her innocence. There is no obligation to present a defense.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 12, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
That's fair. I didn't intend to shift the burden.
The burden is clearly always on the prosecution to prove guilt, and the accused is not required to put on a defense. It was poor construction, but my point is that the standard at the grand jury stage isn’t “beyond a reasonable doubt,” and really can’t be if we’re going to have a functioning criminal justice system.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 12, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
I should have reworded that to
The AG believes the charges could result in a conviction, and he’s right.
But ostensibly, there’s more probable cause to bring charges against McQueary for perjury than Curley and Schultz, if the amount of probable cause is directly proportional to the number of witnesses with conflicting testimony. Dranov, Curley, Schultz at a minimum
GO IOWA AWESOME
Reworded, but the results and implications are the same
1. The AG believes the charges could result in a conviction, and he’s right. This represents a serious flaw in the courts, as the evidence falls well short of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" to anybody with a functioning brain.
2. The AG believes the charges could result in a conviction, and he’s wrong. In this case, the AG is an idiot who in no way understands the state’s burden of proof.
3. The AG knows the charges can’t result in a conviction, but brought them anyway. In this case, the AG is happy to drag 2 men and PSU through the mud by association, at taxpayer expense, for no meaningful legal end.
GO IOWA AWESOME
So Adam as I understand it from other comments here
1) It takes but 12 of 23 grand jurors votes to make a charge or count in the presentment that is then heard with testimony before the judge who decides on indictment?
2) The State’s Attorney General Linda Kelley is a protege of the current Governor
3) The State’s Attorney’s office was grooming Mike McQueary prior to his testimony
4) Only the State’s Attorney or her prosecutors are present to guide the testimony of witnesses but the members of the Grand Jury are allowed to ask.
5) the clear agenda of the SA was to go after Curley and Schultz in order to support the “credibility” of McQueary.
So it is possible that Mike was led down a path of testimony via leading questions that ended in a Presentment or Finding of Fact that was most favorable to the prosecution for the sake of garnering public opinion against PSU and Sandusky but that testimony is a biased overstatement of Mike’s actual experience. He may well have thought the sounds and glimpses were likely anal rape but he did not actually see it and never actually told Paterno Curley of Schultz that was without a doubt what he witnessed.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
This is certainly possible.
Obviously I’d like to see the minutes from the grand jury to know what we’re dealing with, but those will be sealed and only opened in very limited circumstances.
I certainly think it’s possible that McQueary, upon hearing about the other charges against Sandusky, reimagined the story in his head in order to play into the narrative. He may have thought he was being helpful, but those kinds of issues bring about unintended consequences.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
So if the perjury charges go away for Curley and Spanier on Friday....
what does that mean for the University going forward? Does Curley go back to his position as AD?
There's still the other charges
Even assuming that the perjury charges are not held over for court, there’s still the matter of the “failure to report” charges that each of them is facing. As long as there are any charges pending, this is not going to go away and everyone else will still be able to crow about a “cover-up.”
statue of limitations is 2 yrs in
His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo
so those can't be prosecuted. Doesn't mean they can't be fired for it.
His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo
On what grounds, BMAN?
Professional misconduct? Failure to represent the University properly? Most university execs have contracts, and breaking those contracts can get expensive.
Not saying they should not be fired or disciplined — just curious as to what grounds you would base that termination on.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Dec 12, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
I think I see what BMAN is getting at.
Just because the charge in question may have gone beyond its statute of limitations without being prosecuted, doesn’t necessarily mean it couldn’t be used as the basis for termination.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Hmmm . . .
I can see a “wrongful termination” suit coming out of that. “I was charged, but the charges were dropped, therefore my record is clear.”
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Dec 12, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
I see your point...
but I’d hope that the threshold for cause for termination is somewhat lower than that for prosecution.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
418, I'm relying on experiences and observances here at Duke;
PA law may be different as it applies to employment contracts.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Dec 12, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
I'd be surprised if Pennsylvania law wasn't different.
I’d also want to actually see Curley’s employment contract before making an informed statement. At this point, all anyone has is conjecture.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
And we see where conjecture has brought us --
gloom, despair, and agony for us . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Dec 12, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe. We use "wrongful termination" a bit too casually, though.
There’s an obvious question for me as to whether that cause of action even exists in Pennsylvania (it doesn’t in other states), whether it’s statutory or common law, or whether their contracts provide for that protection.
Just because you’ve been “cleared” doesn’t mean you have a right to the position you hold.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
Did you mean to type Schultz?
I don’t think Spanier was charged with perjury, was he?
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
by PaJoe on Dec 12, 2011 9:56 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Correct
Schultz was clearly meant there. Spanier has not been charged with any crime.
Let's Go State!
by Gopher Broke on Dec 12, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
What was the point of the grand jury investigation?
This is baffling to me. I was under the impression that the GJ existed to determine if there was enough evidence to charge a suspect; this seems redundant given the preliminary hearing…am I missing something or is this purposefully redundant?
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
GJ = bringing of charges
There are few evidentiary rules involved.
Preliminary hearing = determination of whether there is evidence sufficient to allow the charges to proceed to trial. Cliffs notes version is that the prosecution only has to set out enough admissible evidence that when taken in the light most favorable for the prosecution, without determining issues like credibility or weight of opposing evidence, there would be enough to get a conviction. Still a low hurdle, but you need something admissible in court that could possibly support a conviction, not just allegations.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 12, 2011 9:20 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
so in PA a Grand Jury can charge someone, even without sufficient evidence to
allow the charges to proceed to trial? It seems almost as if you’re inviting situations under which people are falsely or prematurely charged by a Grand Jury, which seems crazy as it greatly increases the likelihood that innocent folks will be perceived guilty…
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I think the GJ does the
investigative work and turns their findings over to the DA’s office to decide if charges will be brought.
He completed 17 of individuals 26 passes for 192 lanscaping your yard and two touchdowns - Chan Luu
Not exactly.
The investigative work is done by the police and the prosecutor’s office. The grand jury exists to hear what was done during the investigation and decide whether there is probable cause to determine whether the charges should move forward.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
This was my reference
What is a grand jury and what does it do ?
A grand jury convened under Pennsylvania law is a group of 23 citizens called together to investigate suspected criminal wrong-doing.
Link
He completed 17 of individuals 26 passes for 192 lanscaping your yard and two touchdowns - Chan Luu
Yes and no...
Grand Juries are an interesting subsection of the criminal justice system. They do not have the same easily recognizable evidentiary rules. For example, grand juries can consider hearsay evidence, something that would not be admissible at trial. Essentially, the grand jury is there to determine whether probable cause exists to issue criminal indictments. What evidence is admitted to determine whether a person is guilty or innocent is dealt with at the pre-trial and trial stages.
by LionInTheWeeds on Dec 12, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
Surely you've heard the old prosecutors claim
off being able to get a GJ to indict a ham sandwich, right?
Not too far from the truth.
What the hell just happened?
by Pete the Streak on Dec 12, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Wait, McGloin is under indictment?
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Negligent infliction of emotional distress.
by Chris Grovich on Dec 12, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
well that case is a slam dunk conviction
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He and QB14 are co-defendants in a class action
brought on behalf of Penn State football fans.
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
and tOSU cheerleaders.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
The Oregon cheerleaders seem to provide me
with a different type of emotional distress.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
Follow @134Lounge
I believe the word you want there is 'frustration',
not ‘distress’.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Santa does love
a nice flat stomach on his cheerleaders. Especially when said flat stomach is on display between a skimpy top and a tiny skirt. Roasts his chestnuts.
He completed 17 of individuals 26 passes for 192 lanscaping your yard and two touchdowns - Chan Luu
I can never be too hard on McGloin
he came to PSU to carry a clipboard and call himself a Nittany Lion when he could’ve been a very solid MAC / 1AA player. He shredded bad defenses in 2010, and along with Moye, nearly beat Michigan State by themselves. He’s always given great effort. It’s not his fault that there’s nobody better than him around.
GO IOWA AWESOME
by ckmneon on Dec 12, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That doesn't mean he hasn't been responsible for more than one ulcer in the last 15 months.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
The Florida game
that’s the only game where I say, “McGloin played bad and that’s why PSU lost.” Other than that, he’s not always great, obviously, but he’s not responsible for losses
GO IOWA AWESOME
He does have a way of keeping games exciting, though.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
You sure it's negligent and not IIED?
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
forgot to mention
The pros needs to cover each statutory element with some sort of evidence. For instance, with pwid (poss w intent to distribute). You need to show possession of illegal substance, but also that there was actual or constructive intent to sell it. If you don’t have an officer to testify that they witnessed a transaction or an expert to testify that the amount of drugs found on the defendant indicates intent to distribute (I.e. Way too effing much for personal use and/or presence of packaging for resale) then the charge will be dismissed at the preliminary stage.
I don’t know the elements of the Sandusky charges or perjury, but if they don’t survive the preliminary, they were just shots in the dark anyway. Even the victim 2 charges should be held for trial, even with the credibility of mcQ in question.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 12, 2011 9:33 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
It's not entirely unlike an arbitrary and capricious standard.
Is there a rational basis for these charges moving forward? Could a reasonable person, with the evidence in front of them, possibly find the accused guilty?
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
In a similar vein...
I still haven’t seen an answer to my question from someone who’s familiar with criminal law in Pennsylvania – is the presentment that was leaked last month the only one produced by that Grand Jury? If it was supposed to be an all-encompassing summary of their findings, it could potentially have a very different level of detail/embellishment regarding McQueary’s testimony than it would if it were only intended to be used to bring a case against Sandusky.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
What was leaked was a 23 page summary.
The actual transcript of all the witness’ complete testimony could run in the thousands of pages. We only know what the prosecutor thought was required to obtain an indictment.
Which wasn’t very much.
What the hell just happened?
by Pete the Streak on Dec 12, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Right, I understand that.
What I don’t understand is if the presentment that was leaked was to be used as an instrument in the indictment of Sandusky and only Sandusky, or if anybody named in the presentment was fair game for the judge who received the presentment.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
The presentment was used to implicate Curley and Schultz.
I don’t have the page references off-hand, but it’s under the “Victim 2” heading.
In short, they used the presentment to ask for an indictment against parties that they wanted to indict. It was not Sandusky specific.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Is this your professional opinion or are you just speculating?
I’ve seen the notes referring to Curley and Schultz, but for literally two sentences out of 23 pages of summary to be the basis for an indictment seemed a little odd.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
I'd never call it my professional opinion :)
But there’s about a page and a half that discusses the charges that should be brought against Curley and Schultz and why the grand jury found their testimony not credible.. I just don’t have a copy of the presentment with me at work and can’t download it.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, okay.
This was the first time I read the second half of the ‘Victim #2’ section without having immediately previously read the first half – I retract my previous assertion about ‘literally two sentences’.
At any rate, this does provide a lot of clarity into the scope of what is or is not included in the presentment – the AG isn’t likely to include any extraneous details of the Curley/Schultz charges if they would potentially exculpate Sandusky. In other words, I’m even more skeptical of the presentment’s version of what McQueary saw than I was ten minutes ago.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
I must be missing something here
So Curley and Schultz were charged with perjury because they claimed McQueary never told them the 2002 shower incident was sexual, but this Dranov guy said the same thing and he isn’t charged?
And if it’s like a “he said-she said” thing with Dranov/Curley/Schultz and McQueary, why would the GJ be so convinced that McQueary was “highly credible” while THREE other people were then apparently lying?
by TheWrathofQBEagles on Dec 12, 2011 9:37 AM EST reply actions
Just when you think there
are only Three Stooges in trots Shemp. I can’t wait for Curly Joe to make an appearance. Or maybe its the DA’s office that is full of stooges and Curley and Schultz are pawns.
Curley and Schultz were obviously part of a massive cover up of a white slavery prostitution ring running through PSU. Dranov was not.
He completed 17 of individuals 26 passes for 192 lanscaping your yard and two touchdowns - Chan Luu
It's consistent with my theory above
that the AG was just out to run PSU through the mud
GO IOWA AWESOME
my guess is that McQuery didn't say that he said anything different to Dr. Dranov
He has said that he was more detailed w Curley and Schultz. So there is a direct conflict of information – and the GJ decided that C&S were lying.
Paterno and McQueary’s stories vary on what Mike told him – but the GJ chose to “believe” both stories.
FWIW – McQueary’s written statement is not identical to the presentment – no idea what his actual testimony was.
and also
I don’t believe Dranov is a mandatory reporter. I think Schultz & Curley might be…or had more of an obligation to report.
Fire Dan Snyder
He's not a mandatory reporter
At least not in the eyes of the State Board of Medicine. He would only have to report suspected child abuse of someone in his professional dealings, such as a patient. He’s not required to report suspected abuse of someone Mike McQueary told him about.
by Chris Grovich on Dec 12, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
But as someone who thought Paterno should have done more and therefore should be fired, (I think I'm being fair here)
do you think Dranov should have done more?
a fair question
MM comes off as a guy who believed he heard sexual activity but he did not see it no matter how certain he may have been. A difficult distressing situation.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Everybody should have done more. That's the point of this entire thing.
If McQueary saw a similar assault happening in Dranov’s office and told Paterno about it the next day, would anyone be asking “why didn’t Joe Paterno do more?” Maybe, but they’d be reaching. Seriously reaching.
by Chris Grovich on Dec 12, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
So,
your entire argument for why Paterno should have done more is because it happened in his “office”? Or am I not understanding your analogy?
You don't understand.
If we’re putting people on a sliding scale of “should’ve done more”, it’s my view that if a sexual assault happened in Dranov’s office and he was told about it, Dranov is someone who has a higher burden to report things to the police than Joe Paterno would.
I don’t know where you’re getting the “your entire argument” thing from.
by Chris Grovich on Dec 12, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
My view
matches that of Abrams this morning on GMA: While you’d be a fool not to take this new information into account somehow, you also have to reconcile it with the fact that the GJ apparently heard this testimony from the Dr, and STILL thought McQueary highly credible, and STILL thought perjury occurred.
To say nothing of the fact that Joe Paterno himself said “fondling, or something of a sexual nature”.
In other words, I would not get your hopes up too high.
There is a huge assumption underlying this that the GJ
would approach their role with any skepticism or willingness to do something other than what the prosecutor asks for. The witnesses and subject’s attorneys are not allowed in the room, the rules of evidence don’t apply, etc etc. In my (albeit shortlived) experience dealing with GJs and prosecutions, the GJ will not contradict the prosecutor’s presentation and will give them what they are looking for.
It doesn’t mean everything that happened was above board and everyone is in the clear. However, the fact that the GJ may have heard completely conflicting evidence that cannot be reconciled and still issued findings to support an indictment is an outcome the is more than a little bit plausible.
Leaders Co-Champions
by PSUinBOSSton on Dec 12, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
I would rephrase
However, the fact that the GJ may have heard completely conflicting evidence that cannot be reconciled and still issued findings to support an indictment is an outcome the is more than a little bit possible.
But it’s not the most plausible explanation by a long-shot. More plausible is that the leak we’re hearing is not the whole story that the GJ heard, among other possible explanations.
You mean, we don't have all the facts?
How can that be?
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Dec 12, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The presentment clearly contained the line:
FINDINGS OF FACT
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
I didn't realize that the GJP was the final word on the facts
I may need a refresher in crim law.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Dec 12, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Mark May and Gregg Doyle will gladly teach that course.
Mike and Mike will be guest-lecturers.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
FTR, Greg's last name is "Doyel" -- more appropriately
spelled and pronounce “Duh-yell.” He’s been in Joe’s grill for a long time, calling him old, outdated, out-of-touch, etc. He defines douchea.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Dec 12, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
My bad.
Huk’d on fonniks werk’d fer mee!
…and yes, I’ve known for some time that I should avoid reading anything by Duh-yell.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
No big deal, other than pinpointing exactly
who the enemy is.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Dec 12, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Well, nothing is the whole story, unless we sat in on the GJ.
My main point is, the GJ gave the prosecutor what they wanted. Above you said the GJ’s decision means there is something to the perjury charge. Now you say that it’s the most plausible explanation that there is more to this and that the indictment was well supported. Excuse me if I don’t agree. Maybe I’m jaded by my personal experience (again, short lived, but it was from the prosecution side)but If they implicitly asked the GJ to ignore any conflicting facts or accounts by focusing on the ones they preferred, then that’s what the GJ gave them. I don’t think the findings mean anything more than that’s the story the prosecution wanted to tell.
I’m certainly not saying you’re wrong and someone else is right. But I strongly disagree with you that the findings and indictment mean that this conflicting account is not a strong indication of charges that could be entirely baseless.
Leaders Co-Champions
by PSUinBOSSton on Dec 12, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Basically where I fall on the spectrum as well.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
I too am in tune with this assessment of the situation
1) A grand jury is typically from the same pool where all jurors arrive. People with essential jobs are less likely to serve so you get retirees and others who can serve for significant time without undue hardship.
2) Only 12 of the 23 have to be persuaded to support the prosecutions claims
3) The States Attorney can groom her witnesses and steer the testimony without opposition to support her theory of the case. Without a couple of strong jury members to ask critical questions she is free to paint whatever picture she wishes
4) It is in the State’s Attorneys best interest to arrive at a presentment that makes the most possible damaging and damning claims in order to sway public opinion to the support of her theory in hopes the court jury pool will be preconditioned to convict. Particularly in high profile cases
4b – this also supports the political aims of the State’s Attorney and her allies – in this case the Governor of the State of PA.
5) By lumping the Victim 2 charges and Mike McQueary into this massive pile of counts and allegations it lends more credibility to the prosecutions claims against PSU through Curley and Schultz.
This makes the Grand Jury Presentment and Finding of Fact the launch point for the States Attorneys case – It is the STRONGEST POINT in the proceedings for hte prosecution.
Public opinion is on her side. Check
The Media is in full support of her narrative – check
The Defense has not had any impact on perceptions -check
and in a child molestation situation the people are horrified and easily stimulated to rail against the “monster” and those who allowed him to exist and survive.
This is where the system breaks down – in the court of public opinion
We should as a people be very circumspect about the prosecutions untested version and characterization of any case – the media should reflect a healthy skepticism – but it has become more profitable to sensationalize and witch hunt than it is to urge caution and restraint.
Thus we find Joe Paterno and Curley and Schultz and Spanier under attack by their own Board of Trustees that has pretended to do what is in the best interest of PSU as if the best interest of PSU is to toss Joe Paterno to the wolves along with the President and AD and VP. When the BOT has no vested profit interest in the sensationalism and should stand up for the American principal of innocent until proven guilty.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Quick note on #1
As you note, the pool of people is the same, but having been in a “pool” the first question they asked everyone was essentially, “do you have a job, and if so, can you take significant time off without a hardship? If not, raise your hand.” They counted all of us with hands up and said, “you’re excused.” The room was left with only older folks. My sense is people with “jobs” never serve.
*
unless you have a job that will allow you to serve, even on a GJ
and you take advantage of that policy, in a “yipee, time off from work” sort of way.
"I've seen over 200 episodes of Law & Order and it's paying off big time!"
How the Grand Jury works in theory and practice?
This is also posted in the Perjury Going Going almost Gone comments and offered here for those who have not read that thread.
Grand jury proceedings are conducted in secret.The above is from the PA Attorney General website.
When called to the grand jury room, the witness sees the grand jurors, a court reporter and one or more prosecutors. A witness before a Pennsylvania grand jury may take a lawyer into the grand jury room. The lawyer may not pose objections to questions asked or address the jury but can consult and give advice
The prosecutor poses questions and individual jurors may pose questions to the witness. Then the grand jury considers a presentment prosecutors prepare which summarizes the evidence and sets out specific recommended charges. If twelve or more of the 23 permanent grand jurors agree, the presentment is submitted to the supervising judge for his approval and is typically sealed until the prosecutor is ready to bring the recommended charges.
So 23 typically jobless adults are chosen from the jury pool and hear only the evidence provided by the prosecutors in exactly the manner they wish it to be heard. The prosecutors then draft the presentment and require 12 votes to get it approved.
In the case of the 23 page Grand Jury Presentment for the Sandusky case we have to imagine how diligently the jurors parse the wording for each victim. I find it difficult to imagine the jurors giving much thought to the contents. They are a tool of the prosecution and all they hear are prosecutors in a setting where there is no opposing lawyer to object or raise questions. The Jurors are not trained legally and they must be exhausted and out for blood after hearing all of the horrible testimony from the victims. All they want to do is to get Sandusky into a courtroom and into a prison.
It seems to me that a prosecutor can say almost anything and get it approved in this fashion. Why or how would 12 out of 23 jurors object to what is written with any success? The jurors realize they want the target of the grand jury to go to trial where the system gives the accused his day in court with counsel and all they are doing is bringing the accused to trial. A mistake does not put someone in prison – it only puts them on trial. If the legal professionals want to try the case who are they to object?
I doubt the grand jury members even consider what a presentment might do to someone like Joe Paterno or Mike McQueary. A grand jury could be persuaded to do anything the State’s Attorney wants within reason and within reason would include a wide spectrum. After hearing the horrific testimony of the Sandusky victims for days all they could possibly be thinking is how can we best help the prosecution get this monster on trial and in prison where he belongs !! They are not going to be thinking about what’s fair to Paterno or McQueary or Curley and Schultz so the prosecutor can use any characterization of evidence that he wants.
The Victim 2 section is such a small part of the presentment and the actions of McQueary and Paterno only comprise a couple of paragraphs. That’s why we don’t see anything about Dranov’s testimony or any real consideration of his words added to Curley, Schultz and Paterno that contradict what Mcqueary might have said. The jurors are not even given a charge prior to their deliberations – if indeed they even deliberate. I imagine the prosecutor walks in and reads the 23 page document and asks for a vote. If 12 vote yes the session ends and we get what we got.
At least that’s one theory
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Isn't the "star witness" thing
Just an important person to have in any case, in theory. He is very important to their case, so they can’t change now.
M1EK: Please don’t bring anything up about me covering for the school or being blind to the outside view-points, I’m speaking in general about huge cases, like this one.
The Dan Abrams comments
can be viewed here along with others.
I’m struck by the characterizations of the “RIOT” and the Penn State as opposed to Second Mile or Jerry Sandusky links and narrative.
Abrams and the others insist they know what Mike McQueary said to the Grand Jury
and they proffer the Grand Jury as some kind of august deliberative body that sifts through competing evidence instead of a dozen or 23 unemployed people who rubber stamp the State’s Attorneys characterizations as FACT FINDING.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Dan Abrams is a glorified tabliod legal reporter
his coverage of the Casey Anthony case turned me way off on him
"I've seen over 200 episodes of Law & Order and it's paying off big time!"
And the nurse who reported it.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
and where does / did McQueary's father work at the time?
Fire the head of that company too
GO IOWA AWESOME
Until everyone in State College is unemployed ...
can we really say that we were outraged enough?
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Dec 12, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
And may God help us if McQueary's father was on Social Security
then we gotta fire the President
GO IOWA AWESOME
and anything short of an impeachment of Obama
is pretty much an insult to the victims and supports child rape
THIS IS SARCASM PEOPLE
GO IOWA AWESOME
Let's not forget
the culture of Penn State and State College that elevated nephrology above all other professions, where physicians were more like Olympian gods than men. This provides an opportunity to put our obsession with medicine in the proper perspective.
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
by PSU_Buch on Dec 12, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Then fire the inventor of the family
God better lawyer up
GO IOWA AWESOME
by ckmneon on Dec 12, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yes Btd - it was the Doctors fault
sarcasm font ON
he urged MM not to go to the police
so the entire downfall of Paterno is directly the Doctor’s fault. !!!!
His license should be revoked
and that name Dranov – is that a comminist name??
Sarcasm font OFF
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Dranov...
Wasn’t he the commie boxer from Rocky IV?
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
well
I guess Lee Harvey should know??? LOL
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Hey, I don't know nothin' man.
I’m just a patsy.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
That's the way a conspiracy works.
those guys on the grassy knoll are buried out past Teralingua
“still got the shovel”
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
I see what you did there.
What the hell just happened?
by Pete the Streak on Dec 12, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Just saying....
been watching the ESPN bottomline all day, still no cry for why the doctor didn’t do more. I don’t get it….why oh why is there no headline, round the clock news coverage. I assume the reporters will be outside his house tonight. And the medical board will have a 10 o’clock presser announcing they have revoked his license via phone. Guess I better get some sleep now so I can watch the Stuart Scott make up a riot again.
I'm with you Btd - exactly
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
When Joe is on the sidelines and the BOT is replaced?
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
I JUST GOT HIT WITH A ROCK!
Okay, it was a small rock, but THEY’RE THROWING ROCKS!
It bounced off my pant leg, but still, THEY’RE THROWING ROCKS!!!
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
what was that guy's name?
I have asked before, but I really, really want a screen cap of him when he was hiding behind the tree looking all sceered
"I've seen over 200 episodes of Law & Order and it's paying off big time!"
I thought it was Rinaldi.
Don’t hold me to that, though.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 13, 2011 5:20 AM EST up reply actions
I feel so bad, the whole round world looks blue.
I feel so bad that the whole round world looks blue.
Ain’t got no money, I don’t know what to do.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
I am not the sharpest pencil in the box...
… and I’ve tried to follow all of the comments here to the best of my ability. Is is possible that Dr. Dranov is telling the truth, and, so is Mike, and, so is Joe. Perhaps, because Dr. Dranov was in the room with Mike’s dad at the time, Mike did not feel comfortable telling the details of what he saw?
I think about what my own son might report after he saw what he saw. What he would say in front of me alone, vs, what he would say in front of a guest in my kitchen would probably, and hopefully, not be the same story. I’d like to think my son would be savvy enough to save the gory details for “alone time” so we could sort it out together, rather than share with a third party. Am I wrong in thinking this way?
Thoughts?
I take the Grand Jury presentment with the biggest grain of salt.
As has been stated many, many times, pretty much any of these versions of events could be squared with one true, unifying story that also fits the presentment (in a technically-factual sort of way).
I think I’ve conjectured as much as I care to without risking my own sanity – tomorrow and Friday will provide ample fuel for more theories and speculation.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I think Dranov's presence is more of an issue for me when taken in context with multiple other statements.
It appears to me that McQueary changes the story depending on who he’s speaking with. That presents a real credibility issue.
For me, the issue isn’t just which statement is true. It’s the fact that multiple statements, some of which have been made 9 years apart, are entirely inconsistent to each other.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
A clue to the differences
can be seen in the situations.
We only have a summary of allegations in the Grand Jury Presentment that does not Quote Mike McQueary – it only gives us the prosecutions version of what they want to believe and what they want the readers to believe about the intent of whatever Mike may have said. This is done for what is in the best interest of the prosecution
Dr. Dranov was there to advise Mike and his father as to what was in Mike’s best interest. He had no motive other than to help advise Mike.
It would not be that unusual for these two versions from very different perspectives to clash
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
and I should add
this difference in perspective and intent makes Dr. Dranov’s version of Mike McQueary’s statements far more credible in my view. He has no ulterior motive like the prosecution has.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
At this point...
I"m not even sure MM knows what he saw.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 12, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Hopefully we will know after tomorrow
Can’t blame Mike for contradictory statements until we know exactly what he said or says under oath. All we have are the prosecutions summary of their version of what he said designed to justify the indictment. Mike may know what he saw and the prosecution may want to make more of that then is justifiable.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
The prosecutor's GJ summary is virtually identical to the written statement he signed for the police.
Which is also different than the email he sent to teammates, which is different than the story he told his father.
The prosecution may be overreaching, but it’s also clear that McQueary hasn’t been entirely forthcoming. He can’t make statements and then change his tune when he’s under oath and not expect to be pressed on the inconsistency.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Do you have a link to that written statement?
I did not realize it was available
thanks Adam
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Sara Ganim wrote a story about having seen it.
by Chris Grovich on Dec 12, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks Chris
Here is the link to that story
for me it raises more questions about how and when he came to make that written statement
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
I'd completely disregard the email to his teammates.
Granted, it’ll be used to impeach McQ at trial, but that had all of the traits of a guy trying to salvage his reputation with his buddies.
by Chris Grovich on Dec 12, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, I think that's the problem with McQueary right now.
Feels like he’s trying to salvage his reputation (and maybe assuage his own internal guilt).
Not saying he should feel that guilt, but inconsistencies cause problems.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
I would bet...
any competent psychologist specializing in the field of cognitive function could tear McQueary’s testimony to pieces if Amendola put him on the witness stand.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
No need to tear anything to pieces until we know what he said
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
True enough.
My point, though, was that I don’t see McQueary’s testimony counting for much (if anything) at the end of the day.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Could a lot of McQueary's actions
be more understandable if he was a victim of abuse, himself?
McQueary's actions would probably be more understandable...
if we actually knew for a fact what McQueary’s actions were.
Now all we have is what we can make up given the ‘facts’ on hand.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Check out this article from Walter Uhler
I corresponded with this guy over my posts here on BSD and he just put out this excellent work
New, Previously Suppressed Grand Jury Testimony and Joe Paterno
Uhler names a lot of names in the press as Jackels and Jackasses. It’s well worth the read.
Excellent work.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Dec 12, 2011 4:24 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
A taste of Uhler's article for those who can't access it at work - it's a free read
What I am saying, however, is that many members in the news media – including Bob Ford and Frank Fitzpatrick of the Philadelphia Inquirer, Maureen Dowd, Joe Nocera, and Ross Douthat of the New York Times, the execrable Jennifer Rubin of the Washington Post, Ron Bracken of the Centre Daily Times numerous hacks at the Huffington Post and clowns like Roderick MacLeish, Mark Schlabach, Howard Bryant, Gene Wojciechowski, and Jemele Hill at ESPN — all swallowed the grand jury report as gospel ON OR BEFORE November 14, 2011, the day that evidence provided by McQueary, Amendola and, today, Dr. Dranov began to cast serious doubt on the grand jury report.
Really, were they all so incredibly stupid as to take the grand jury report at face value? Were they all so ill-informed as to think that the grand jury report was anything but a one-sided summary of the prosecution’s case?
And what about the mob that was incited by the moronic jackals in the news media? After all, “a poll done by the Pew Research Center’s Project for Excellence in Journalism from Nov. 17 to Nov. 20 revealed that during this time period the American public deemed the Penn State scandal the most compelling news topic by a wide margin.”
Well, Walter Lippmann said it best: “the more untrained a mind, the more readily it works out a theory that two things which catch its attention at the same time are causally connected.” By relying uncritically on the grand jury report to “hook” the Sandusky scandal to a national icon, Joe Paterno, the untrained minds among the jackals inflamed the moral outrage felt by millions of similarly untrained minds across the country. It’s like the “weapons of mass destruction” that the press and public simply “knew” were in Iraq.
Now, that there exists evidence to discredit the grand jury report, who among the jackals and jackasses is ready to reassess their knee-jerk reactions?
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Dec 12, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The 13th & 16th. At least the wait for more facts/fodder is less than it was last month.
I feel for the kids/young men who will have to testify tomorrow. A couple hundred scandal hungry viewers fighting over their electronics but really just waiting for the salacious bits — makes me ill to think of it.
Being someone who could never even tell the parents, it is hard to imagine what it must be like. My heart aches for them.
God bless the residents of State College and Bellefonte
"I've seen over 200 episodes of Law & Order and it's paying off big time!"

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