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Police cheif that shut down the 1998 Child Abuse investigation was, wait for it....Jerry Sandusky's neighbor. God damn, State College might be the worst place in the world.

6 months ago Sutherland-animal-house_tiny jesse. 137 comments 0 recs  | 

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2 questions regarding the 1998 case

1. I thought the DA Gricar decided to to go further with the investigation, not the police chief. Is that incorrect?

2. What did Sandusky actually say to the mother of the victim during that police sting operation? This is ancillary to the article provided here, but a question I have.

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN

by skarocksoi on Dec 12, 2011 12:39 PM EST reply actions  

DA said that there wasn't enough evidence to press charges.

Police Chief old detective to stop investigating. Imagine if Brisco and Logan stopped investigating everytime McCoy said there wasn’t enough evidence to go to trial.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll give you an hour to come up with a better way to describe it.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

For a non-lawyer-police-legal-system-jurisdiction guy like myself

that analogy was perfect.

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN

by skarocksoi on Dec 12, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

This article refers to the PSU Police chief

Wouldn’t this be independent of Gricar’s activity?

by InScoresOfOtherGames on Dec 12, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Unless I'm reading it wrong...

Gricar told Harmon to drop the investigation, and Harmon did so.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

1. I thought the DA Gricar decided to to go further with the investigation, not the police chief. Is that incorrect?

This is my understanding as well.

2. What did Sandusky actually say to the mother of the victim during that police sting operation? This is ancillary to the article provided here, but a question I have.
Without looking up the exact text somewhere, IIRC he admitted to showering with the boy and touching his shoulders/back. he also admitted that his genitals may have touched the boy (I believe his exact words when asked that were “I don’t know, maybe”, or something very close to that). He also said that he wished he was dead and that “I wish I could get foregiveness. I know I won’t get it from you.” (to the boy’s mother). If the things in quotes aren’t exact, they are very close. I also believe there were 2 separate conversations with the boy’s mother and police were listening in on both. However, there have been no reports of a rape during the 1998 incident, only showering and inappropriate touching.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what I conclude as well.

Obviously, showering with young boys is “inappropriate” it is not exactly “illegal”. While knowing what we know now, we’d think oh wow, investigate this further, the police had no reports of rape. They probably taped the conversations to see if he would admit further guilt and lead to things that may be illegal, but his quotes sounded more like a man mortified about crossing over an uncomfortable boundary with the boy. Again, clearly probably not the case, but from working with children of abuse and knowing the laws somewhat well, I can understand why this wasn’t pushed further.

by mleepsu08 on Dec 12, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I am shocked and appalled.

I wonder how this (and all the other little bits in the same vein) square with the notion that ‘it was all about protecting the Football program’ in the minds of people like the jackass who wrote that POS AP IMPACT that came out today.

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 12:39 PM EST reply actions  

Seriously. This is much MUCH bigger than PSU football

I, for one, plan to continue my life long contempt for the powers that be and I fully expect to be disappointed with whatever choice is made. ~PSUgirl

by jman07 on Dec 12, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't want to hijack this thread,

but the following quote from the article lends itself to Schultz having more of a role with the police then many people give him credit for:


Harmon had been director of Penn State police since 1990. In April 1998, he assumed more responsibilities when David Stormer, an assistant vice president who oversaw the department, retired and his position wasn’t filled. Stormer couldn’t be reached for comment. Harmon’s supervisor at that time was Schultz.

by Btd121 on Dec 12, 2011 1:00 PM EST reply actions  

Sandusky has a Dodge Intrepid.

fucking monster

A pandemic of cowardice sweeps the nation.

by WorldBFat on Dec 12, 2011 1:22 PM EST reply actions  

Good thing he didn't drive a Prius.

We’d have to destroy all hybrids.

@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."

#OccupyESPN


Black Shoe Diaries

by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

We should probably go ahead and do that anyway

because this is America damnit. We should all be driving full sized SUVs and 1970’s mucle cars that average under 10 miles a gallon, damnit.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

My RV gets seven on the highway

with a good tailwind. Fifty cents a mile with gas at $3.50. Count it as you go.

*

by Smee on Dec 12, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

You need an RV that runs on Priuses

I bet you could get a solid 10 miles to a Prius.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Had he driven a Dodge Stratus,

He could been a Division Manager in charge of 49 people!

Instead, he’s just a man who, if the allegations are true, is your ordinary scum of the planet.

"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."

by MainLion on Dec 12, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

An interesting counter-argument

That does little more than make the original point. It’s not just these two that were neighbors, they were all neighbors. Trust me, I’ve had some conversations with some people about the extent and nature of what gets written here. And it’s beacuse it’s a small town.

When you know a guy who knows a guy, often, it’s the actual guy.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

Everything is one-degree around here. (“Here” meaning Happy Valley)

*

by Smee on Dec 12, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

State College is a very small town, and, it is a very private town. People associate in exclusive cliques. Everything and everyone here are pretty much 8-10 miles from each other, BUT, living three doors away from someone does not mean anything around here. It just means you live “three doors down”. People who work together, associate together, people who don’t, most of the time, just say “hello” in passing or at the mailbox. I have neighbors I have actually never met…

by jessedotsmom on Dec 12, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Speaking of which...

Doesn’t Dranov live over in your neck o’ the woods?! (Conspiracy!!!!)

Just kidding, just kidding, JUST KIDDING!!! :-)

*

by Smee on Dec 12, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm laughing...

… he lives in another part of the same town I live in, but I do know a gal who worked for him. To explain State College in a humorous manner, and, from a woman’s perspective, please watch:

The Stepford Wives.
One of my favorite movies!!!

by jessedotsmom on Dec 12, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, seen plenty of the Stepford "look" in action. And the male counterpart.

Well, on a separate, positive note — at least we’re finally getting a Sheetz on this side of town!

*

by Smee on Dec 12, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

We’re movin’ on up!

by jessedotsmom on Dec 12, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I would smell your cooking and you would have met me!

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Dec 12, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

We need to meet anyway!

Get out your pitchfork, saddle up your horse and come on down to Happy Valley PA!!!

I’ll be cookin’ up a mean mess of grub tomorrow!!!

by jessedotsmom on Dec 12, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It also demonstates the creative

use of titling in a news article. The title sure makes it sound like Sandusky and Mr Police Chief were neighbors when this investigation was going on and the investigation was compromised as a result.

Just adds to the confusion. If you have insider knowledge of Sandusky’s darkside why would you allow your 11 yr old son to hang out at his house?

That settles it, I'm movin to the big city where the rapists, muggers & murderers don't personally know you.

He completed 17 of individuals 26 passes for 192 lanscaping your yard and two touchdowns - Chan Luu

by rahpsu92 on Dec 12, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Color me confused.

The article said the police chief ordered the case closed after Gricar chose not file criminal charges. So? What am I missing that this seems perfectly logical?

"The only difference between a brown-noser and a shit head is depth perception"
-PSU_Lions_84

by dbl5030 on Dec 12, 2011 2:37 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

GRICAR WAS IN ON THE CONSPRIACY!

HE GOT DISAPPEARED BECAUSE HE WAS GOING TO SNITCH!!!

I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug

by leeharvey418 on Dec 12, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Maybe Gricar and Sandusky are the same guy

I mean, has anyone actually ever seen the two of them together??!!

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

not in over 6 years!

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Dec 12, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL

"I’m not a lawyer, but I read a lot of BSD" - psuphysicist

by The Heel on Dec 12, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe Paterno saw to it

That Gricar went for a nap amongst the fishies

Formerly known as kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries

by Kyle_Martin on Dec 14, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

What am I missing that this seems perfectly logical?

A journalism degree.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

A actually have my Journalism Degree (from PSU)

and it seemed logical to me. What else could it be?

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the Big Ten...or just lose the sweater vest.

by amandakt on Dec 12, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, didn't mean to pile on all journalists

There are lots of good ones out there.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

No, it's ok! :)

I don’t practice journalism – just got my degree in it. Maybe it’s b/c I got my degree at PSU vs the other jouranlists.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the Big Ten...or just lose the sweater vest.

by amandakt on Dec 12, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

so did Ganim

and she’s actually doing good work on this. hmm.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Dec 12, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

The Police investigate crimes.

DA’s prosecute them.

I don’t thik that a DA has absolte authority to shut down a criminal investigation, they can just decline to prosecute what is reported to them. It’s not really the same thing, although the effect is similar.

Not to get all M1EK here, but a police officer has an obligation to investigate if they think that a crime occured. Just because Gricar heard a tape and says; “I’m not going to Court against Jerry Sandusky with that”, doesn’t mean that the police have to stop investigatigating. If the cop thinks Sandusky is child molestor he can keep digging, unless the chief tells them to cool it.

And if the chief happened to the guys next door neighbor? I mean, that stinks at least a little.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it could mean

that maybe the chief gave him the benefit of the doubt and just assumed that Sandusky did something inappropriate without really thinking about the implications of it and was remorseful about it, and not thinking he was a child predator. Then you have the DA telling you he cant really make a case out of it, so your options are to keep digging and possibly embarrass your neighbor and a respected man in the community, or let it go. I dont think it necessarily stinks, but I do see how it would look bad.

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN

by skarocksoi on Dec 12, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I had not appreciated that subtlety

Thanks for clarifying jesse

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

And I believe they lived a few doors down some 14 years prior to the incident.

They were not next door neighbors at the time the chief told the detective to close the file.

by Btd121 on Dec 12, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't see why "living a few doors down" in a neighborhood

would be reason to let a child predator run free. Can you imagine that cul-de-sac? I mean really.

by mleepsu08 on Dec 12, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

It'

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It's just my opinion...

But I think your going down a pretty scary black hole of rationalization here. This is somebodies fault. Just not Joe Paterno’s.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Both of you actually.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe. Maybe it is simply the fault of the alleged perpetrator. Maybe others acted reasonably.

Maybe not. I don’t think we know yet. But your assumptions and I believe your misstatement of fact regarding when they were neighbors only lead to an even more ill informed public and make PSU look even worse.

by Btd121 on Dec 12, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't agree.

I think the sooner people start becoming outraged about the failure of the University Park Police here, we’ll actually start making some progress toward fixing the problem. Hysterisa was firining Joe Paterno.

When the polce are regularly and severely scrutinized, we all win.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

For all we know

Shultz never passed the information on. I’ll become outraged when I know where to direct my anger. Until then, we can’t possibly know what systematic failures allowed Sandusky to go undetected for so long. Premature rage can blind us to the real problems and real solutions by giving us a false sense of accomplishment/security when we make a decision.

Example 1a is firing Joe Paterno. Was that right? Maybe, Maybe not. But if we don’t reevaluate that decision we may never know. And we may not ever fix the problems that allowed this to happen in the first place.

Focused outrage is good. Blind rage never solves anything.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Two seperate incidents.

The Athletic Department is being lambasted over the 2002 incident. We talking (primarily) about the 1998 incident here.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah. Sorry about that

I guess I saw University Park police and jumped to 2002.

All of the details are starting to swirl together. Was the UPPD involved with the 1998 case. I thought it was the State College PD

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Good point.

That would frustrate a big point of the article. This guy was not the head of the SCPD, I’m not certain who did the investigation of the 1998 incident.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

The shower was on campus...

The sting in State College proper? That would jive with this, and make the UP Chief the guy with the obligation to push the investigation.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

you have that correct

SC police was involved in the sting, brought in by the DA. The UP police were conducting the investigation.

It is soooo much easier suspecting what we do now about JS to say people should have done more. In 1998 to 2002 JS was known as one of the most outstanding citizens in the state. Running a wonderful charity, giving of himself and involving the people where he works to do great things. It is not suprising that people may have missed he might be monster. This is all so easy in hindsight. Throw the blame everywhere, his neighbors missed it (and let their kids hang with him) all his church friends missed it, everyone at 2nd mile missed it, the media, state police commissioners, politicians missed it. Why is it so hard to believe that Joe, the campus police, and some academic administrators missed it too.

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Dec 12, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It is soooo much easier suspecting what we do now about JS to say people should have done more.

This is a very simple point that is also very good. I also tend to see the reasonableness of Gricar to not bring charges based on the sort of “admission” by Sandusky that was very vague and didn’t technically implicate him for any actual crime.

What I have had trouble reconciling is why there wasn’t some sort of even “back burner” investigation carried on in the ensuing weeks and years. I mean you know that something inappropriate, if not illegal, is going on with a guy who is around kids literally all the time. Someone should have at least kept the file open and continued to monitor and poke around every few weeks to see if any kind of new information or leads would come up.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Dec 12, 2011 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I completely agree with your second paragraph

One thing to take into consideration though is that even though it is only 10 to 15 yrs ago, that was a different time when it comes to child sexual abuse knowedge in the general public. It wasn’t discussed, people from my parent’s generation came from an era where it was just kept hidden, don’t go to so and so’s house. Now there are TV shows that have plot lines about it. The Catholic Church mess brought it into mainstream life. People are not afraid to discuss it now, as opposed to then. There is a big difference in not only this but the openness of discussing all sexually violent crimes, things that were just not talked about.

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Dec 13, 2011 8:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm wary of where I gather my facts

But it appears as though the victim’s mother informed the University Police. However, Sheffler (UPPD Detective) brought in the SCPD detective Ralston for the evesdropping. So it was both the UPPD and the SCPD that had first hand knowledge about this.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Haven't you been listening to the media?

You’re anger should be directed at Joe Paterno and solely, Joe Paterno.

I, for one, plan to continue my life long contempt for the powers that be and I fully expect to be disappointed with whatever choice is made. ~PSUgirl

by jman07 on Dec 13, 2011 7:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I agree that there was multiple times in this whole mess it could have been handled better.

But, I just don’t think they let Jerry off because he was “their neighbor”. I think that’s reaching alot. Hell, if I had children in his neighborhood, wouldn’t that give me more of a reason to investigate?

by mleepsu08 on Dec 12, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

So now the police don't have an obligation to investigate either?

It’s all the fault of the dead guy? What a break. Who does have an obligation, I mean, Tim Culey is just the friggin’ AD.

Bullshit. Those bastards don’t do shit but bust kids for pissing on the side walk and smoking pot, and they let this slide. My ass. The cops will get no quarter from me on this issue.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

No, they do have a duty.

But I think it only goes so far. If the DA says the case is a no go, they are done. At least in most cases.

by Btd121 on Dec 12, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

No one said it is all the fault of one guy.

I’m not even saying the 1998 investigation was his “fault”. Given his reputation, I believe he truly didn’t have enough to go on to pursue the matter further.

by Btd121 on Dec 12, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

If they say this case is a no go, than it is.

Go get a better one. Take a few people of underage drinking detail and look into it.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree. With hindsight, everyone can take some fault.

I think the only fault was that, if all these allegations are true, Jerry was a very convincing, very predatory child molester, who fooled many people, and for the most part, did a good job of hiding the darkness inside of him. His actions in this case were clearly not right at all, but with no confession of rape, I can understand the logic that the cops may have used, even though now we see it as fatally flawed.

by mleepsu08 on Dec 12, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

No quarter for the cops.

As much as they give the kids they arrest for penny ante shit everyday. This is their job, they simply decided to focus their energies on less contraversial and more profitable areas of doing it.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Look, I'm not the biggest fan of the cops either. I know that is not a very pc thing to say.

I do think there are a lot of good ones who put there lives on the line everyday and deserve our gratitude. But I also think there are a lot of bad ones who waste taxpayer money going to after stupid shit like you say. I’m just not positive they knowingly allowed this guy to continue molesting kids.

by Btd121 on Dec 12, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

put there lives on the line everyday

We’re talking about the University Park Police here. I know the difference between cops that are in danger and ones that keeping college kids in line.

I’m just not positive they knowingly allowed this guy to continue molesting kids.

I’m not saying that either. I’m saying it’s their job to catch child moelestors. Not Gary Schultz’s, not Joe Paterno’s, not Mike McQueary’s, not Graham Spanier’s. Theirs. And they failed.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough on the second point.

But I disagree with the first. See VA tech cop killed last week.

I went round and round with M1EK last week about that, so I won’t repeat it here.

by Btd121 on Dec 12, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I would stand corrected

If a University Park Police officer had ever been killed in the line of duty.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

didn't they take down the girl shooting up the old main lawn a few years ago?

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Dec 12, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

No

I think it was a student that subdued the shooter until the cops showed up.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

That is what I remember too.

I was on campus that day. Thank God for hangovers, because really late.

.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts

by SarcasmJam on Dec 12, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

guess someone should have started peeing beside a tree

The fuzz would have shown up sooner.

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Dec 13, 2011 8:30 AM EST up reply actions  

No, this is arguing in hindsight....

What were the police doing in the Summer of 1998? Hmmm…..This

Prehaps in retrospect catching a child molestor should have take precedince of the investigations related to catching some kids that did some property damage.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Just to play devil's advocate

They had the mother try to get something damning out of Sandusky twice and that apparently was still not enough to bring charges. I guess they could have checked with Second Mile to see if there had ever been other complaints, but who is to say that they didn’t do this? From what we know, the 1998 incident was the first one that was ever discovered/reported on. Beyond interviewing every kid to have gone through Second Mile, maybe the police felt like they had exhausted all avenues of investigation.

Again, just throwing out an alternative.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

They had enough to move forward with that.

If the GJP is correct, they had more than enough to move forward with something, even if it wasn’t exactly Victim #2 material.

They had the information. They had Sandusky practically admitting to it before the kid’s mother. And they squashed it.

by Chris Grovich on Dec 12, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you referring to the DA here?

I’ve heard others say that, based on what we know about the 1998 incident, it was understandable that Gricar didn’t bring charges. I lack the knowledge to make that judgement for myself, and I understand how it could be a real gray area.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I've heard others say that, too.

And I don’t buy a word of it. He admitted to inappropriate conduct in a shower with an underage boy. No charges.

Scott Paxson took a bicycle out of a dumpster and was charged with receiving stolen property.

by Chris Grovich on Dec 12, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for clarifying

Another serious question though—is what Sandusky did in 1998 actually illegal? I mean, it sure seems to me like it should be, but I don’t know if it is.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think its illegal

Otherwise it would be illegal to shower at the Y after a work out just in case minors may be around.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, this went beyond just showering

There was touching involved too, IIRC

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe Sandusky explained it as

‘incidental contact’.

The fact that he was able to somehow show remorse (I wish I were dead) while at the same time explaining that he couldn’t promise that it wouldn’t happen again necessarily implies that he didn’t think anything that he was doing was wrong. He either believes this, or is a manipulator on a level that is unfathomable to just about everyone else I vote the latter.

Combine that with his apparent pattern of behavior (identified weak kids, bullied them, pushed them to see how much he could get away with, then when he knew he had complete control, molested them- all while masquerading as a model citizen), and its not hard to see how this guy got away with everything for so long.

That said, it is the job of police detectives to question everything. I’m in agreement with Chris and jesse. that the investigation shouldn’t have been stopped.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

He admits to touching him.

And he complained to somebody that he thought the contact was inappropriate. Seriously, jump in the shower tomorrow morning with your wife, and grab her ass without her permission. If she tells the cops, you could be in trouble.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

He (being the kid)

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Please stop this

This ridiculous line of ‘reasoning’ has to stop. I shower at the Y with my son when we work out. The difference is I don’t shower in private when nobody else is around with somebody ELSE’S kid.

by M1EK on Dec 12, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand the difference

but that doesn’t mean the law does. Case in point: no charges were filed.

I’m not rationalizing what Sandusky did. I think its wrong. But I’m saying that showering in a public shower with a child isn’t illegal. Its really short sighted to do it because of how it looks, but it isn’t illegal.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I would agree with you if it were just showering

but he admitted to touching. That seems to put it well over any social lines, and as Chris said below, is almost certainly illegal, too.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he said hug, but I could be wrong.

And if it wasn’t forced and if he didn’t have the intent of something sexual, I don’t think it is illegal. I would need to crack my barbri book though to double check.

by Btd121 on Dec 12, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you have the transcript of the entire meeting?

I thought I saw something with more detail before?

by Btd121 on Dec 12, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

illegal or not

and not using hindsight either, I would have liked to have seen the cops in 98 continue to track Sandusky.

Mother goes to cops and likely reports “child predator / sexual abuse”, not “hugging in the shower”. Cops seem to do pretty thorough investigation complete with wire tapping. DA doesn’t see enough evidence for prosecution, but that wire tap is damning enough to maybe follow the guy for few extra weeks / months?

Again, this is not hindsight. This is just how I (average citizen with no law degree & never watched an episode of CSI or Law & Order) would think the cops would rationally act. Follow the man.

Perhaps they did.

I’m not sure what concerns me more – if they did and missed it, if they did and covered it up, or they never even tried.

by BooyahPSU on Dec 12, 2011 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

At the *very* least, it's probably battery.

I could take a look at the “bad touch” statutes later. It would obviously be low on the scale of those crimes, but probably in there somewhere.

by Chris Grovich on Dec 12, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Right.

Hence, the level of my negativity and refusal to give them the benefit of the doubt.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess the point of my original post

was just to throw out the possibility that police felt like they did all they could and it still wasn’t enough for the DA to bring charges. That would shift more responsibility to Gricar than the police.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Slight and polite correction.

It’s not that it wasn’t enough for the DA to bring charges. It’s that he just didn’t.

In reality, Gricar probably looked at the situation, saw that it was a likely crime but (a) kind of difficult to prove and (b) smallish beans in the grand scheme of sexual crimes and decided to bag the investigation in favor of things such as undersized defensive tackles removing discarded bicycles from dumpsters.

by Chris Grovich on Dec 12, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

This seems likely.

He also probably made a political consideration about attempting to take down a well-respected member of the community over what any criminal defense attorney would scream from high heaven was merely a “misunderstanding.” He probably didn’t have the energy to get caught up in that without a stronger case.

@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."

#OccupyESPN


Black Shoe Diaries

by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't agree.

I haven’t read the transcript of the conversation for a few weeks but my recollection was that he did not admit to a crime. That said, further investigation certainly wouldn’t have been a bad thing. And maybe that happened. Maybe it didn’t. I don’t know.

by Btd121 on Dec 12, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

You bring up something that really bothers me

It seems like anytime a student gets in trouble in State College/University Park the general strategy is to throw every possible charge imaginable at the kid and hope a few stick.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, unless its public urination/underage drinking

They know that the kids will pay the fine, take the class, and have the charge expunged from their record. Its a garaunteed money-maker that very rarely is challenged.

When it isn’t a 300 dollar underage citation they simply try to intimidate college kids into pleading to one or two lesser charges. Its actually extremely effecient in terms of making money and taxing system resources. However, that isn’t what the criminal justice system is set up to do. And it sets me over the edge.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

The kids who got arrested in the 1998 case should file a class action suit.

They recieved trumped up charges, bad Court rulings from the Judge, and essentially kangaroo court treatment. It was really bad. But yeah, Jerry Sandusky well, maybe he might be diddlilng kids, but, weeeeeelllllll….

Burn the bastards to the ground.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

1998 Riot Case.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Well its easy to rationalize that brand of justice when the students are the scapegoat of the community. No one in town gives a shit if the cops/courts trample on the students because they are just wild 18-23 year old assholes with drinking problems.

However, the rest of SC is a small town. And the courts/cops have to be much more careful lest there be backlash from prominent members of the community.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I shouldn't say 'no one'

There are many members of the State College community that don’t view the students as the problem. However, their voices get squashed by the larger community in general that does.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

This.

Locals get a much different brand of Justice than regular students.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

One incident in particular made me realize this

I think it was my junior year. A house on west college burned down. For the next 2 weeks all I read was about how the students were to blame because they had a couch on the porch.

There was no mention of the faulty electrical wiring that probably hadn’t been up to code for the better part of a decade. There wasn’t any mention of the towels in the windows because they no longer kept the heat in. There was no mention of the slumlords in general that rented out the house without regard for student safety at grossly inflated prices.

No the entire thing was the fault of the students. On top of it, articles came in about SC residents that used to live in the house and how their memories had burned. No mention of the students pictures and personal possessions and their memories that actually went up in flames. It was pretty enlightening to me, and I instantly became a cynic.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

When did you graduate?

I very much remember that story. One of the kids in the house died from smoke inhalation, if it’s the same story.

@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."

#OccupyESPN


Black Shoe Diaries

by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

2008

I don’t remember anyone dying, but I guess I could be wrong. I drove by the smoldering hole where the house had been on the way to the golf course the next morning and wondered what the hell had happened.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Adam, I think what you are referring to occured around '05 or '06

I graduated in 06 and remember a house fire where a student on a top floor was killed (I think it was along Beaver, around High St). I seem to remember it being caused by a candle or something.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 12, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Thats probably the one I was referring to as well

I don’t remember what actually caused it, I just remember the tone of the aftermath.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

I also graduated in 2006. I think the house fire was down Beaver, now that I think about.

I remember that the kid’s friends had a wiffle ball tournament in his honor.

@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."

#OccupyESPN


Black Shoe Diaries

by Adam Collyer on Dec 12, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Everybody who went to school there...

At least knows somebody who got railroaded by the cops in that town. I would have no issue whatsoever with them taking the brunt of this.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Dec 12, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah its funny

I know a few people who were railroaded by the cops. And I know others that should have been, but weren’t. Mostly it came down to whether it was a citation-related drinking offense (see above).

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Dec 12, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

yup

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN

by skarocksoi on Dec 12, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

What I have wondered about that "investigation"

was that it seems to me that police listening in on a phone conversation would be akin to a wiretap, requiring a warrant, especially pre 9/11. Since the eavesdropping would force a Fifth Amendment breach it would be pretty embarrassing to admit to everyone (especially the mother) that the prosecution could go no further due to bungled evidence gathering.

Of course they could always get a warrant and then ask the mom to call him for another shot at the apology/explanation/admission, but at what point would JS get suspicious?

by cs93 on Dec 12, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

No wiretap

The surreptitious conversation recording was in person

Not picking on you cs, just pointing out again, as lots of people have this impression, that they recorded nothing over a phone. They had 2 cops (one each UPPD and SCPD) hiding in another room while the mother confronted Sandusky. You’re not even the only one to get this wrong in this thread.

We can’t really get uppity with the media for mis-reporting facts or supposition-as-facts if we can’t get our own information right

It takes courage to stand behind someone you believe in when it’s this bad outside. It takes courage to stand up for a man in peril, even if he stood up for you. - JoePo on JoePa

by nylyst on Dec 13, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry - went back and re-read.

For some reason it was in my head that those conversations were telephone, but it does not say that in the presentment. It just says “eavesdropped” which triggered that assumption for me. Not to pick back, but you also jumped to conclusions by stating there was a recording (GJP doesn’t say) and that it was in person (GJP doesn’t say) so I guess we’re even?

I definitely agree that the instant news cycle (and our appetite for it) has not helped add any substance to the relatively few facts. This small example shows how I got off track. I appreciate your reply.

by cs93 on Dec 13, 2011 10:10 PM EST up reply actions  

If you want to get a real grip on how uninformed the public is...

Read the Comments section on that page.

Its absolutely unbelievable how wrong they are on just about every issue.

Its like they just make it up as they go.

"I’m not a lawyer, but I read a lot of BSD" - psuphysicist

by The Heel on Dec 12, 2011 3:32 PM EST reply actions  

The Dept. of Public Welfare could have pursued this as well

…but didn’t. Sandusky could have been put on a sort of “watch list” even without criminal charges. Was Lauro a neighbor too?

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby

by nps on Dec 12, 2011 3:55 PM EST reply actions  

this is true because child services knew of the incident and didn't persue either.

His legacy is US. The legacy of the young men who he took from a variety of backgrounds, races, religions, economic circumstances and set on a right path, and that's the legacy. WE ARE... the legacy, not his 409 wins and certainly not this incident." -Jimmy Cefalo

by BMAN13 on Dec 12, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, they didn't know everything according to that link I posted above

Mr. Lauro also was invited by the university police to eavesdrop on a conversation between the boy’s mother and Mr. Sandusky. He declined and asked Detective Shreffler to get back to him with what he learned. He recalled that Detective Shreffler told him they extracted nothing new from the conversation. So University Police closed their case and Mr. Lauro followed suit.

But Mr. Lauro said he was not privy to the entire conversation that police listened in on. He did not know that the mother had asked Mr. Sandusky if his private parts touched the boy and that he had responded “I don’t think so … maybe.”

But he could not say with certainty if it would have been enough. It would depend, he said, on “context.” “I don’t recall him ever telling me that. It could have changed my thinking. I could have dug around and found something else,” he said.

Others who have worked in child welfare have said that Mr. Sandusky’s showering with the child — even without contact — was enough to indicate a case. And child welfare workers can, and frequently do, indicate a case even if a prosecutor declines to pursue it.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11345/1196149-455-0.stm#ixzz1gMdEP0IB

by Chris Grovich on Dec 12, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Should we not apply the same standards to Mr. Lauro that we have applied to everyone else?

Why did he not ask more questions? Why did he not follow-up? It was, in fact, his job. Unlike others whom we have applied this standard to.

by Btd121 on Dec 12, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

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