Football and Academics
by AdamP84 on Dec 14, 2011 12:52 PM EST
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PrintJust read this on an article and found it odd.
"Still, according to Footballscoop.com, a football coaches jobs website, Penn State has contacted Duke coach David Cutcliffe and Navy coach Ken Niumatalolo over the last few days.
Both coaches head programs at academically rigorous institutions that are not tradionally considered football powerhouses, which is in line with Erickson’s stance that he wants to reposition Penn State as an institution that takes academics seriously"
If i am not mistaken Penn State is usually one of the top schools academically for its student athletes? If so then why would Erickson say he wants to emphasize academics, and not want to emphasize fottball in accordance with the academics standards they already have
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To answer your questions...
#1. Yes. PSU football is academically superior to nearly all programs. #2. Erickson is continuing this knee-JERK reaction started by the Board of Trustees. And if they get the Navy coach then I guess we can stop worrying about needing a QB who can throw the ball. And receivers can just be blockers.
I just don't want to die without a few scars. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 6
Philly.com reported
“A Navy spokesman said Penn State has not contacted Middies football coach Ken Niumatalolo about its head-coaching position.”
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Does Navy have to know?
Just asking if coaches are required to ask for permission to interview or whether it’s just a courtesy that coaches engage when an opportunity presents itself. I can’t imagine Pitt gave Todd Graham permission to interview at ASU, but I can see a university on a different level (say Duke or Navy) understanding that if their guy has a chance to go to PSU (or some place comparable), that this is not a snub to Duke or Navy.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Dec 14, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
I strongly suspect....
All the talk about de-emphasizing football and focusing on academics is just window dressing, crumbs for the critics.
These people aren’t stupid. Speaking in hyperbole, football pays for everything. The university cannot afford to lose that.
They’re going to try their hardest to find a winner, someone who knows how to win football games and fit in with the traditions of Penn State.
Look, we’re already number one in the academic bowl; what more can you ask for?
The committee wants a winner period. Of all the coaches who have just entered the labor market, none were fired for any other reason than wins and losses. These are the facts of life.
If you want to develop QB's
Cutcliffe is your guy. Besides both Manning’s, he also coached Eric Ainge and another NFL-bound QB who is escaping my memory. Everything I’ve heard about him indicates that he is a stand-up guy, takes academics seriously, and knows how to coach and recruit offense. If he has the right defensive staff (LJ/Vandy?), he could get some things done in State College. I read that his health and age are part of what drove him to turn down an interview at Tennessee post-Kiffin, and that may continue to be a factor, but I’d support his hiring.
don't really know anything about him
but betting on Duke was like free money this season. He’s got that program going in the right direction, which certainly seems like a feat.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Dec 14, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
free money
rec’d for “betting on Duke was like free money this season”. If only I hadn’t given that money away on non-Duke games…
Why oh why......
hasn’t there been an outrage about President Lackey repeatedly saying he wants integrity and academics restored to the FB program…..what in hell did Joe do since he had started? The Grand Experiment worked and the JS case has nothing to do with this. PSU IS presently #1 in graduation rates and still their FB Program was operated with integrity. Someone hit this jagov in the middle of his forehead and wake him up to the realities of the situation at hand.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God."
by DerryPharmer on Dec 14, 2011 1:34 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
I am outraged
and have expressed it where I can.
I can't believe
that this new guy actually makes me miss Spanier
by Brett Brown on Dec 14, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He wants to promote Academics!?! And he's President of Penn State?!?!
Off with his head!
The fact that the majority of the folks on here seem to despise Erickson because he’s said solely he wants “to see that our stellar academic program becomes a more important face of Penn State,” demonstrates the over-sized role football plays at Penn State.
I like Penn State football as much as anyone, and Eric Rodson Rod Erickson is not going to take anyone’s football away. He just wants to market the university differently. Which is exactly what he should be doing.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Spaka, you're missing the point
Joe proved that he could build a winning program that was academically superior to the rest of the programs in the country and still win. Erickson wants to marginalize football to emphasize academics.
I am a scientist and proud of the quality of my program (earth and mineral sciences). However, I want our football team to continue its competitive tradition. There is no need to get chippy over our support for a competitive team. Hell the football teams financial success improved our academic programs (e.g.: the beautiful new library wing.).
He doesn't want to marginalize football
that’s your interpretation of his statements, but he has said nothing of the sort (and if he did would be rightly castrated by the alumni).
What he’s saying (at least my interpretation) is that he wants academics rather than football to become the face of Penn State. I decide to matriculate at Penn State largely because of Joe Paterno and the football uniforms; sad but true. The academics sold me on the deal, but it really was football that got my in the door.
Erickson is just proposing channging that system. And you don’t have to marginalize football to promote academics, that’s simply foolish. I think his goal is to make Penn State more like football: a great academic institution with a good football team rather than the way most people perceive PSU: a good football team with a great academic insitution. He’s simply trying to change the perception of the university by “outsiders,” but not make the football program worse. He’d be the dumbest dummy in the history of idiots if he was undergoing his tenure as PSU president with the goal of marginalizing football.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
But is that possible?
I can’t think of a single school that has a consistently successful football team (I have no idea how to define that) in which academics is the face of the university. The Michigan’s and Notre Dame’s of the world are still primarily known for football, regardless of their academic quality. The closest examples I can think of are BC, Stanford, and UCLA and they aren’t exactly football powerhouses.
by VVeRPennState on Dec 14, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
It's a good point
the fact that 95% of the public don’t really follow academics as closely as they do sports means that even schools like Michigan, Notre Dame, and I’d even say Stanford are more well-known to the public at large for their football or basketball exploits than how good of a school they are. I grew up as a sports fan, and I didn’t even realize that Michigan, Stanford, Notre Dame, Northwestern, UCLA, etc were all very highly regarded academic institutions until I began applying for colleges and looked at rankings.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Ummm...
I agree with most of those schools except ND and Stanford. Especially Stanford. I knew Stanford was for smart people b/c Jessi on Saved by the Bell wanted to go to school there.
But continue!
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the Big Ten...or just lose the sweater vest.
Haha, good point
I actually had no idea Notre Dame was a good school because, I mean…Rudy seemed like a dolt, you know?
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Stanford is the only one of those...
UCLA, in my mind, is approximately comparable (maybe a little better than PSU) in academics, but you know what? In my mind, UCLA is a basketball school – not an academic powerhouse. Duke? Basketball. UNC? Basketball. BC is pretty average in every respect, in my mind.
Despite the great things PSU has done on the academic front, it will NEVER be considered on the same plane as Harvard, Berkeley, Stanford, Yale, Northwestern, Chicago, or probably even Michigan or UVA by the general population (I think PhD/research wise, I think a lot of people see PSU as an elite institution).
I think the closest (only?) analogies to PSU are Texas, Notre Dame and Wisconsin. Not bad company.
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
But when we come in first in the "Academic BCS"...
then why is this talk even necessary? Instead he should just be saying, “Hey guys, look, we actually rock at academics already, so suck it.”
by RitterPSU on Dec 14, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
regardless of what the Penn State community thinks
outside perception matters. It matters for enrollment, for hiring professors, for grant money, etc. It is important. And so he’s trying to change that perception, and importantly he’s going to try to change it NOT by cutting the football program’s balls off, but by better promoting academics.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I've never really noticed that "football school" was an outside perception
But by acknowledging that it might be, Erickson did much more harm than his promise to “change” that perception could do. He made people who never really considered it all the sudden think that such a perception is legit.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 14, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I could share about a half-dozen articles from various media sources
that were published in the after-math of the scandal saying that PSU was too much of a football school. I could also wear a shirt that calls State College a “drinking town with a football problem.”
My wife’s coworker is moving to State College in the fall because his wife was offered a professor position. They decided to take the offer a few months ago, and they were actually happy that the scandal happened, because they hope that it will change the school (neither are football fans).
You can say “we don’t need professors like that,” but someone in the earth sciences department apparently did.
Erickson only acknowledged what was already readily apparent to everyone that didn’t grow up Penn State.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
It's all perception
- Those T-shirts were just made to make fun of ourselves when we were really bad a few years ago. Nothing more. Take a joke
- I have been a Penn Stater my whole life and have never considered it to be a football school. It a great university with a good athletics department. I don’t see how that is any different than most schools with large football programs – except for the fact that we probably have better academics. Can we stop whining about our football program yet? It’s not bringing down the school!
- Anyone who works at Penn State should be excited when any department succeeds whether is is academic or athletic. I’m an engineer. I hated English classes, but it never dawned on me to take pleasure if the English department had problems. I don’t see why those associated with the university would take any sort of pleasure seeing a department hurting whether they like the subject or not.
This whole thing is so stupid. Why are people so petty? And for the 1,000 time, why do we care what the world thinks? Can we not be content with the success we have? We have no problem with enrollment or charitable contribution (read the annual report over dinner). It’s something like 80,000 people apply to Penn State every year. They can only accept 4,000 freshman at UP (plus the branch campuses). We’re not hurting.
We are Penn State. We should be supporting the success of each department because together we make the university great. We’re not ever going to be the “leader” we say we are until we stop caring what everyone else thinks and blaze our own trail.
Does anyone have Erickson’s phone number? This is conversation is making me mad.
Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson
by belbijou on Dec 14, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I'm sorry spak
I can see where you are coming from and I understand it but I don’t think that is President Lackey’s line of thinking. Also, the shirt is/was a joke. Making light of the fact State College is a college town and in college towns, there will be a lot of drunk kids. Has nothing to do with the football program. My other issue with the sources you mention is, they were published after the scandal broke. I read a bunch of those articles myself and they were all just a bunch of blowhards that hate football in general.
Now if there were articles like this before the scandal, then maybe there is a point. The only reason the “public” thinks “Penn State football is too big” is because they believe that JoePa covered up this scandal. Hell, before this happened, I remember reading many articles about PSU no longer being a football super power and not being among the greats anymore. So which is is? The public/media/blowhards/etc can’t have their cake and eat it too.
I, for one, plan to continue my life long contempt for the powers that be and I fully expect to be disappointed with whatever choice is made. ~PSUgirl
I know the shirt is a joke
I own the shirt. But ignoring the outside perception doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist and doesn’t matter.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Accepting outside perception
doesn’t make it right either.
Formerly known as kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Dec 15, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So I should dig out my old T-shirt from the 70's
Repel Them! Repel Them!
Force Them To Relinquish The Ellipsoid!
RAH!
Is that more academically oriented?
*
I'll be pointing this out Jan. 11
"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."
-J.V.Pa.
I think Erickson....
is mis-speaking when he intimates the de-emphasizing of sports….I think what he really means is that no matter how much Penn State is respected outside of football, the University was basically a brand to the rest of the country with Joe Paterno as the spokeman. No more live by the sword die by the sword is what I am getting from this. You can’t have one person or program be what sells the “brand”. A sustainable business can’t have one customer make up 75% of its sales and be considered solid operation. But you guys are smart and all realize that. I’m just saying it out loud to get it off my chest.
"Distinction will be his paramount object, and although he would as willingly, perhaps more so, acquire it by doing good as harm; yet, that opportunity being past, and nothing left to be done in the way of building up, he would set boldly to the task of pulling down."
-Abraham Lincoln
Eric Watters
Atlanta, Ga.
by ech2os on Dec 14, 2011 1:39 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
So........
sounds to me like he is basically saying they are going to hire just some guy that will keep graduation rates up while trying to win a enough games per year to go to some crappy bowl games to collect a little money, then call it a day. heres how i feel, Grad rates near the top are great but i dont watch the games because they pass their classes, i wanna see a good team win some games damn it!
To qoute the great Mike Singletary “I WANT WINNERS!!”
To quote Steve Spurrier...
Hindsight is 50/50.
Erickson should have chosen his words more carefully. It was never athletics vs. academics. It WAS a cooperative effort. Now it’s not. Now it could become Mediocrity with Honor.
I just don't want to die without a few scars. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 6
YEP
thats what i am afraid of. I dont wanna be like northwestern, great academics and settle for 6 wins and a low level bowl game every year
I've actually attended a Little Caesar's Pizza Bowl...
I had fun — but not that much fun. And ironically they don’t serve Little Caesar’s Pizza at Ford Field. Against a contract they have the the vendors.
I just don't want to die without a few scars. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 6
funny
ya you would think they would be selling the heck out of that stuff at their own bowl game lol. I actually consider making the trip to texas for bowl game against Houston. I saw somewhere that the stadiums capacity is around 80,000 and they expect like 50,000 fans to show up. So there are tickets available but, we are trying to save some money to take the kids to Disney World next year. Then i figured if they dont get pressure on Case Keenum he will probably carve up that soft pass coverage. So it wouldnt be worth the trip anyways. All i can say is they better RUN the ball alot and keep him off the field. I can see Silas Redd going for 200 and a couple scores!!
We are #1 in the "Academic Bowl"
but have only thrice played in the Rose Bowl/BCS since joining the Big Ten. It seems to me we need to re-emphasize performance in football in order to bring it on par with academics.
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
by PSU_Buch on Dec 14, 2011 8:01 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
ADVICE FOR THE NEW PSU PREZ.
1) Do not get your picture taken at a Toga Party with local bankers like your predecessors.
2) Do not dump your wife and marry your secretary like your predecessors
3) Make sure your toupee is on straight when you get onstage at a local bar, unlike your predecessors.
4) Do not degrade a successful football program.
If you want PSU to be better know for academics, then try raising a quarter of a billion dollars for New Energy Development Infrastructure, and, by the way, do not use the Paterno Library for your reference work.
Buy a Vowel!
Joe From Boalsburg
PSU BSEE ’70 MSEE73
Raised on Beatings, Second-Hand Smoke, and Liquor...I know nothing!
by joefromboalsburg on Dec 14, 2011 9:16 PM EST reply actions
What is he supposed to say?
We want to go out and get a coach exactly like the guy we just fired?
I think what he may be trying to do in saying this publicly (and I can only assume he might say something drastically different in private), is that we need to reduce how much people outside of the institution associate football with Penn State and instead focus more on using football as a tool to highlight our already good academics. That includes graduating players, but that also includes more advertisements about academics playing during games, less in stadium pump up videos featuring players/coaches and more videos featuring lab coats and students, using game-day income to directly (and very publicly) fund academic improvements, etc.
I think it also includes the University trying very hard to control the public image of the coach (proverbially giving him the same treatment that the athletes get when it comes to their uniforms… he’s a part of a team, not a god). If god-like player(s) and god-like coaches are not the faces of the university, then they can’t hurt PSU’s reputation as much when they “inevitably” screw up.
It may sound crazy, but I think part of the reason our players don’t garner as much attention in the press when they get in trouble is because people outside of PSU have trouble remembering our players names without a jersey to constantly remind them.
And I also think there’s no way in hell any PSU coach has a shelf life > 10 years (at least not for a LONG time).
And although I don’t think Joe deserved it (unless we find out more info indicating that he did) and I don’t think they should really change much in terms of what they’re actually doing with the football program, I do think that the academic part of the University would see advantages from outsiders understanding that our football program is important but that it isn’t what defines PSU.
In fact, if anything, in all of this mess I’ve learned one thing for sure… there are a lot of people out there who really believed that Joe WAS Penn State… and perhaps if I didn’t know about all of the other things that make Penn State great, I would have thought the same thing… I probably would have also believed the media’s story.
Missed the OTL pieces a couple years ago eh?
It may sound crazy, but I think part of the reason our players don’t garner as much attention in the press when they get in trouble is because people outside of PSU have trouble remembering our players names without a jersey to constantly remind them.
And I also think there’s no way in hell any PSU coach has a shelf life > 10 years (at least not for a LONG time).
Does any modern coach have a shelf life > 10 years?
I do think that the academic part of the University would see advantages from outsiders understanding that our football program is important but that it isn’t what defines PSU.
Hearing this a lot, but what does it mean? All the press releases celebrating the latest research grant in the world cannot generate the same publicity as winning the Rose Bowl. No matter what the University pushes as its “Image” people are going to be interested in what they are interested in. Many pore people will be exposed to Penn State through sports than they will be by closely following academic news and rankings. Its just a fact. For the same reason some 14 year old boy can remember every players batting average, but can’t remember his homework, he’s just more interested in baseball.
The best way to further the mission of putting academics on the map for the most people is through the most widely accessible vehicle possible, athletics, at Penn State this means football.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
Sure did miss the OTL... never seen one that I can think of honestly... I generally avoid ESPN (especially now).
No, I’m not sure any modern coach has a 10-year shelf-life (I’m not even sure that many coaches from 20 years ago would have that shelf-life, but I’m not looking for stats to back that up), but I definitely don’t think one will ever last over 10 years here again.
As for the academic stuff, I think there are a lot of ways to promote academics more through football. I named some of them. Others include the University actively creating “story lines” that can be discussed by commentators/announcers during games. For example, PSU donating some of the proceeds from each game to a specific academic aspect of the school (scholarships, research ventures, etc.). How about have collections at the gate specifically to endow scholarships with totals for the year that can be announced near the end of games. Feed the news these kinds of stories. Also, how about putting more stuff about academics up around Beaver Stadium highlighting the history of academic achievements at the school? Maybe honor outstanding professors at halftime for their research achievements? Do a whole lot of little things that show football fans an overall sensitivity to the real mission of the University and remind alumni about the other things about PSU they should be proud of.
I don’t think anyone expects adults or children to start memorizing how much grant money we pull in or how many research articles we publish. I also don’t think fans would riot if a professor was honored at a game for some important research award they just received.
I do think that the administration making a conscious effort to shift the culture of the school to center it’s pride MORE (not completely) on academic achievements is possible over time (I mean, look at what Paterno has already done for PSU’s academic image compared to a lot of other big state schools). If that shift is embraced by the students/alumni, then it would snowball even more and build the academic brand nationally.
I want everyone to know that PSU is a top 50 undergraduate school (in the WORLD) and a leader in research… because my degree is from there. And someone knowing PSU has a good football team and assuming we’re just “Big State U with so so academics” isn’t going to get me my next job. Everyone knowing our players graduate doesn’t fix that either (“oh, their degree is rocks for jocks and their profs let them slide through”). What does fix it is for us to stay committed to academics while trying to also run a successful football program.
Like I said, though, President Lackey can’t just come out and say, “We really thought we were doing a great job before so we want to find someone just like Paterno (without the old age and stigma) who is going to keep up the good work.” His move is pure PR, will be ignored by those who already know PSU is a good academic school, and will (possibly) calm the nerves of anyone who doesn’t.
by BNittsDeMilo on Dec 15, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Also, how about putting more stuff about academics up around Beaver Stadium highlighting the history of academic achievements at the school? Maybe honor outstanding professors at halftime for their research achievements? Do a whole lot of little things that show football fans an overall sensitivity to the real mission of the University and remind alumni about the other things about PSU they should be proud of.
Fair enough, those sound like pretty good ideas. That’s a nice measured response that would be appreciated even without the present black eye.
I get that it’s public relations, I don’t know that it is the right message to the public. It does reinforce among those already ignorant of PSU’s academic standing that there was something wrong before.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
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