NCAA Sanctions For Penn State: You’re Doing It Wrong
by Kevin Powers on Dec 21, 2011 12:30 PM EST
in Football
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PrintRest assured, 11W hates child rape:
Tressel deliberately failed to report players selling their own belongings for cash. It was a far cry from the rampant academic fraud at North Carolina, the systemic LOIC at Boise State across multiple sports, the openly permissible attitude at the University of Miami toward having Nevin Shapiro as the athletic department's Caligula for several years and the wholesale administrative coverup of Sandusky's serial child rape at Penn State.
We're entering a new chapter in Everyone Is Doing It justification in college sports, where we're no longer benchmarking against (and making ourselves feel better because of) Pony Excess, but rather Jerry Sandusky. Getting free cash and cars during your tenure? "It's not child rape" is, as in the above example, everyone's new Deal With It gif.
In other football-related scandals, the NCAA has been able to operate in their own framework, at the very least sticking to some kind of program. Ohio State landed the #1 ranked player in the country, in no small part, it seems, because a mentor in his hometown had access to both cars and the OSU athletic department. The school then proceeded to let him and other high-performing players trade goods given by the football program for cash and cash equivalents. The football program experienced a direct on-field advantage by allowing this to both happen and go unpunished, even temporarily after the story broke.
And who suffers? Not Pryor, who was inexplicably given supplemental draft access, then a $586K signing bonus as part of a four year, $2.7MM deal. Tressel only by degree, who will now shift to working his way through the ranks of the NFL. The current players and coach for certain, who had little to nothing to do with this.
Penn State already "self-imposed" the opposite of this, and swiftly. Put aside the merit of acting without all the information for a second and agree with this: the accused have been punished and will be dealing with those consequences for the rest of their lives. There is no replay review position in Pittsburgh for Paterno. There is no $2.7 million dollar job on the temperate west coast for McQuary. Graham Spanier does not simply sit out a semester and get back to work.
The school, largely "innocent" in its current form, is suffering a kind of long-term punishment that makes the scholarship reductions at USC and OSU or the regime change volunteered at UNC laughable. The football players, as innocent as you or I in this, were handed a totally offensive bowl bid considering their record. The future regime will inherit a rapidly defecting recruiting class, that for good measure is largely committing to rivals. The school and athletic department will never be able to one-up the stigma with another "Champs Day," and now inherent the financial repercussions.
There's a bigger problem: how many scholarships is child rape worth? How many Capital One bowls? How can the NCAA possibly quantify the crime and come out looking like they hate child rape? The answer is that they can't. They can't possibly quantify something that has been the biggest sports story of the entire year, which earns that rank precisely because it is so unfathomable. And so they either won't or will destroy themselves trying to both scorecard this one, and then take on every unethical, non-sports related activity in college sports.
And then there's the Big Ten, who will not be one-upped in the moral game by the NCAA. They're in an incredibly powerful position to do any of the following (as mentioned on this week's sad-cast), all of which they did not:
- Realized child abuse is a societal problem, not just a central Pennsylvania one, and that Penn State's bowl money isn't any dirtier than anyone else's in the Big Ten. Instead of watching Penn State donate money, Delany could have organized a conference-wide cash effort instead of his empty televised comment about protecting our children.
- Run child abuse awareness PSAs instead of conference shill pieces during the Big Ten Championship game.
- Commit to jersey ribbons or stripes - similar to what the NFL committed to for breast cancer recently - to promote child abuse awareness and plug a hotline.
Instead? This:
[The Big Ten] will reserve the right to impose sanctions, corrective or other disciplinary measures in the event that adverse findings are made in the areas of institutional control, ethical conduct and/or other Conference related matters.
They drone on about "earning and deserving this trust" as the engine that is driving the regions brain trust and, in many ways, leading its culture, to which I'll defer to a German organist: "Example is not the main thing in influencing others, it is the only thing."
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The NCAA leading the charge against Penn State
is like calling the Orkin Man to fix your toilet
Follow @Ben_Jones88
Blogging at Black Shoe Diaries
It was all a dream, I used to read Word-Up magazine.
by Ben Jones on Dec 21, 2011 12:32 PM EST reply actions 11 recs
EXTERMINATE, EXTERMINATE!
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Whatever holds the image of an angel IS an angel. The eyes are not the windows of the soul, they are the doors.
Yes, I am on twitter.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Dec 21, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Follow @Ben_Jones88
Blogging at Black Shoe Diaries
It was all a dream, I used to read Word-Up magazine.
by Ben Jones on Dec 21, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The ignorance of the NCAA
most of the schools, and most of the fans makes it really hard to be a fan of college football in general.
Competitive Advantage
This isn’t a popular position to argue, and I have to make the requisite “I hate child rape” statements beforehand, but isn’t the whole idea of NCAA enforcement to punish competitive advantage? In no way, shape, or form did the Sandusky Coverup provide a competitive advantage to the Penn State football team.
The same cannot be said for Miami, Ohio State, UNC, Boise, etc. Frankly, the NCAA has no authority to do anything in this manner, especially against the football program, which wasn’t involved.
by pricecheck on Dec 21, 2011 12:42 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
totally agree
if anything, this has put us at a sever competitive DISadvantage. A much greater disadvantage than some bowl bans or scholarship limitations can ever achieve.
Even if it'd come out in 2002
there still would have been all sorts of fallout, probably similar to what happened when it did come out, given the ’98 investigation. If it came out in ’98, it would have been worse-“current Penn State coach accused of child rape.” That would have killed recruiting, probably forced out Paterno, and all the rest of the stuff.
If there was a coverup, and I think there was to some extent, it was for the same reason Tressel covered up the Tat-5. To protect the program.
I think you hit the nail on the head.
Many tink that if it was reported in 2002, all would have been well. I am not so sure that we still would not have been roasted by the MSM.
ESPN, for sure, seems to have a vendetta against Penn State. For example, where has Matt Millen been for a few weeks. I haven’t seen him on lately.
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
It wouldn't have been as bad..
because Twitter wasn’t around, the grand jury report , and the nature of the internets in 2002 vs. 2011. The story would be much more about how Sandusky fooled everyone.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
True, that
However, maybe it would have been worse since the Penn Staters (and friends… looking at you aurabass) couldn’t have analyzed this ad infinitum.
Personally, I am the type that you admit your wrongs, take your punishment and move on. 1998 was reported fully and investigated. No issues. 2002 should have been but wasn’t. Now we find that we are lower than whale shit. In the belly of the whale, at the bottom of the ocean.
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
True...
but everyone views 2002 through the prism of the grand jury report and not as it’s own incident. That, in my opinion, is part of the reason PSU got torched.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
Right
As Joe said…In hindsight… We’ll never know how things would have played out. Only speculative..
However, played out is the wrong way to look at it. The situation should have been pursued much stronger in 2002 than it was. They should have “let the cards fall as they may” , back then. Most likely would have been much better than what we face now.
Have a Happy Holidays.
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
This is a correct statement
context and presentation is a huge factor.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 22, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
eh
A pandemic of cowardice sweeps the nation.
by WorldBFat on Dec 21, 2011 12:46 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
A monkey nibbling on the tip of a penis is funny in any language
Substitute ‘a monkey’ with ‘Lord Voldemor’t and ‘nibbling on the the tip of a’ with ‘being gang raped with every prisoner’s’
And that pretty much summarizes how I feel…
by PSUinOH on Dec 21, 2011 1:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
We are going to get hit and hit hard
If there is any analogy to what we are going through it is what happened at Maryland following Len Bias’ death. Of course the NCAA couldn’t do anything about the situation at hand- Bias was dead, Lefty Driesel (another coach who ran a class program and graduated his players) was fired, and the Board of Trustees cleaned house of the university brass. What the NCAA did was wait until it was shown that some booster didn’t pay full freight for court side tickets and then Maryland had a two year no-radio/no-TV punishment and a reduction in scholarships.
There’s enough unique features to our case that I’m sure the suits in Indianapolis can feel confident will never arise again and therefore they will punish us. Even if Schultz/Curley are found not guilty and Victim #2 is never ID’ed we will be in the crosshairs. Don’t be surprised if we get punished for paperwork violations that happened under Paterno, or if some non-revenue sport gets investigated. The rulebook for the NCAA is 700 pages long, vague, and the process is completely opaque and non-appealable.
I don't see it
If punishment comes down due to this then the NCAA will have a bunch of cases to investigate. The death at ND, the drug dealing at numerous schools, and bascially any criminal act by any coach or player at any school. This scandal was about a professor emeritus that didn’t have an office in the football building but did have a key. Sandusky was not even an employee of the athletic department. The fact that a high ranking university official completely fucked up on this is not grounds for punishment from an athletic organization. Also, what happens if victim 2 comes forward and says he was not abused? then this entire situation has almost nothing to do with PSU other than it was an ex-coach.
I just read.
I would like to agree with you...
But the NCAA is a cartel that does whatever it likes and has absolutely no one to answer to… The only thing it probably cares about in this situation is looking tough and kow-towing to the public and media.. The only thing that might save us is the fact that the NCAA has under-punished O$U and most of the other revenue generating schools recently, so maybe they’ll do the same for us, but somehow I doubt it. Child abuse stirs way more emotion than cheating in sports does or ever will..
by Domin8ing the Big Ten(11) on Dec 21, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
It also helps.
when your school’s AD (i.e. Gene Smith) is in the ear of the NCAA likely working down the infractions.
by Artiefufkin10 on Dec 21, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
This is what concerns me
Like I said below, the logic is on our side. The “if they go after this then they have to go after these other things too” argument makes sense. But, who’s going to make that argument? Penn State? We can’t even get away with making comments on the internet about poor media coverage without being called enablers. No chance the university would fight anything.
I’m generally not doom and gloom about this stuff and ultimately think the NCAA won’t do anything, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all.
by speedomike on Dec 21, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I have to agree in full.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
My response would be accept whatever penalty they gave..
..then sue the shit out of them. People forget that Jerry Tarkainan who was a snake in every respect, sued them and won.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Dec 21, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I wholeheartedly endorse this solution.
by Nittany Lawyer on Dec 21, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
The NCAA is the inmates running the asylum. It is not beholden to ideas like judicial review, or precedent, or logic, or common sense. Lots of idiots in the public and in the press are enamored with this idea that because child rape is worse than getting free tatoos, our punishment must be worse than theirs. Never mind that it’s totally apples and oranges.
Besides, the Ohio State case was never primarily about the free stuff. If they’d reported that, the players would have been suspended and that would have been the end of it. It was Tressel’s repeated lying about it.
As it is, I don’t support the sanctions against Ohio State. I believe that the individuals responsible should pay, but there’s no justification for hanging it on future players, coaches, and fans. That’s just two wrongs = a right thinking.
Unfortunately, the NFL doesn’t recognize NCAA sanctions. It might help if instead of letting each level of the game govern itself, we had some kind of overall body like rugby or soccer has that could ban coaches from all levels of the game. Unfortunately, we do have USA Football, but it’s just marketing and Jim Delaney just got elected to its BOD.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
The best thing Penn State can do
Is to make it very clear that we have good lawyers and a very thorough understanding of the NCAA’s scope and bylaws. Pre-empt any attempts at publicity-driven expansion of scope.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 22, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Given that Penn State never self-reports
violations, it’s likely that the NCAA will come calling soon. There’s no way a program Penn State’s size has never had a walk-on player take a bottle of gatorade from the training table or something.
Or put..
cream cheese on a bagel.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Right
because PSU didn’t have a bunch of reported violations, they were immediately dirty. Good to know.
So the reason that I don’t have any police record is because I was never caught. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I, for one, plan to continue my life long contempt for the powers that be and I fully expect to be disappointed with whatever choice is made. ~PSUgirl
by jman07 on Dec 21, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Well thats outstanding logic
The fact that there isn’t evidence is, in fact, evidence.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Dec 21, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Yup, never.
Except when they do.
At Penn State, this sort of situation hasn’t happened because of a culture largely shaped by Paterno. Fifty-eight years without a major infraction is a marvel for an athletics program that, in fiscal year 2009-10, generated $106.6 million in total revenue (for a $26.4 million profit), according to the U.S. Department of Education statistics.
And yet, Penn State is not without an NCAA file. Matt Stolberg, Penn State’s associate athletic director for compliance and student-athlete services, said that the program “has definitely reported secondary violations” to the NCAA. One of them came in 1985, when Paterno attended a recruit’s Letter of Intent signing ceremony, which is impermissible.
Stolberg said that Penn State reports those secondary violations “at a rate that is comparable to other Big Ten institutions.” Secondary violations, according to an NCAA spokesperson, are considered isolated and inadvertent, do not represent a “significant competitive advantage” and are not a matter of public record.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 21, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Full citation:
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 21, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Adam, Adam
Why do you bother bringing such trivial things like facts into this?
I, for one, plan to continue my life long contempt for the powers that be and I fully expect to be disappointed with whatever choice is made. ~PSUgirl
Of course, that report is wrong. Penn State reports secondary violations at a rate comparable to ten other B1G institutions.
Since 2000, Ohio State has reported to the NCAA more than 375 violations — the most of any of the 69 Football Bowl Subdivision schools that provided documents to The Dispatch through public-records requests.
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2009/05/31/FERPA_OSU.ART_ART_05-31-09_A14_D4E14K6.html
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 21, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Was going to correct this. PA would have a 0% unemployment rate if PSU go involved in the amount of false confidence building paperwork OSU decided to partake in under Tressel (or maybe before, I have no idea).
by Kevin Powers on Dec 21, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
When they're citing examples from 1985
in a 2011 story, I think that says a lot about how often they self-report.
Or it could suggest how often they commit violations.
- BSD Bunnymaster (Thanks Paige)
- The only Adam on this blog who doesn't actually write for it.
by AdamShell on Dec 21, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
when they're citing examples from 1985
in a 2011 story, I think that says a lot about how often they commit violations
by swiggy04 on Dec 21, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
The article is using that incident as a reference point for the types of violations that earn "secondary" status.
You’re ignoring the rest of the block quote.
Stolberg said that Penn State reports those secondary violations "at a rate that is comparable to other Big Ten institutions." Secondary violations, according to an NCAA spokesperson, are considered isolated and inadvertent, do not represent a "significant competitive advantage" and are not a matter of public record.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 21, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
That part was ignored
Since it didn’t fit the narrative.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
by AriesGD on Dec 21, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Dude
take it easy on 1LisHell. He’s like rumple, except without any humor whatsoever.
I mean, I don’t know what I would expect for someone who chooses his username for an enjoyable hobby like commenting on message boards from a terrible experience that shows both his personal existential angst and yet manages to convey to others that he has achieved some status.
1L isn’t Hell. Hell is having to live such a miserable life that you go on college football message boards and make exclusively negative comments. Or being so miserable that instead of celebrating the situation and being excited about the future prospects of Ohio State, you come to a Penn State forum and try to shit on all the home team’s fans.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 22, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If you aren't (or weren't) drunk every day of your 1L year, you will be (or are) a bad lawyer.
A pandemic of cowardice sweeps the nation.
Seriously
Law School in general was probably the best three years of my life. Very close at least. I enjoyed law school a great deal, and it’s really not all that hard. Even the bar exam isn’t that terrible. You just have to ignore the gunners, they are the worst.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
My goodness
Penn State was infinitely better than law school. Law school wasn’t bad (and it was nice to be in a city for my mid-20’s) but if we’re comparing best years of life, they were all in State College (except the part of one that was abroad).
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
My logic is three-fold.
In law school; I was always over 21, I never had to worry about my grades, and I was always getting laid.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Fair enough
In college, I never really thought too much about what I was going to do after. That’s a big reason why I had so much fun. Also a big reason that I ended up going to law school.
21 is a non-starter for me, especially in State College. I got an underage, but big deal. I worried less about my grades in undergrad than in law school, since I was required to stay in the top 50% to keep a scholarship. And getting laid was probably at the same objective difficulty level at both places (though it costed more money to “court” ladies in law school)
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
This may be the laziest reasoning that I have ever witnessed
also, it is demonstrably false that PSU has never self reported a violatoin. Otherwise, strong.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Dec 21, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
I dont agree that the Len Bias thing is like this at all
for starters, Driesell resigned but became assistant AD so its not like his career was over. Driesell supposedly asked people to get the drugs out of Bias’ room after he Overdosed. Also, the sanctions on Maryland were for recruiting violations and academic violations. And the rest resigned because Bias was 21 credits short of graduation even though all his eligibility was used up.
All you really have in this situation (and i say “really have” not to diminish the crime of Sandusky, but to put into perspective the hugeness of the crime in humanity contrasted with what the NCAA should be concerned with) is a former coach being indicted for molesting kids. There are no recruiting or academic issues here, Paterno/Curley/Schultz didnt actively destroy evidence or impinge an ongoing investigation.
The underlying crime here is as despicable an act as anyone can possibly imagine, but from a university/academic/football perspective, it is very little. From a standpoint of the NCAA, what happened at Maryland and Baylor are worse.
What's worse is that there are many many many more cases of child abuse
which are severely worse than Penn State’s case. People want to believe that the Penn State case is society at its basest level, but any knowledge of some of the horrors that kids go through makes this PSU case look like a walk in the park. That’s not to say that these alleged crimes are any better, they’re not. But to pretend like the problem is at Penn State and no where else in society is naive or intentionally dishonest cough Syracuse / ESPN cough
- BSD Bunnymaster (Thanks Paige)
- The only Adam on this blog who doesn't actually write for it.
Look at the Bill Conlin..
story. I mean, Joe Paterno got destroyed for how he handled what MM told him. The parents (THE PARENTS!) in the Conlin case didn’t report anything. In one instance becuase the kids dad had a temper!?!?!
I think the only lesson you can draw from any of these cases, is that life is messed up.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I'd have a temper too if I found out somebody molested my son.
I, for one, plan to continue my life long contempt for the powers that be and I fully expect to be disappointed with whatever choice is made. ~PSUgirl
Me too.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
i mean you can say the same thing in PSU case
all these victims, people act like only Paterno/Schultz/McQueary/Curley were in a position to do something. 20+ years, 11 victims, but it almost seems that according to the public only 4 people in a matter of 2 weeks knew about it.
by swiggy04 on Dec 21, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If Paterno...
wasn’t Paterno, I don’t think he gets as much heat for this.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
absolutely
and if we were talking about another sport, it would have been news, but over quickly
I’m an aspiring Joe Paterno Apologist®
of course not...
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
And so they either won’t or will destroy themselves trying to both scorecard this one, and then take on every unethical, non-sports related activity in college sports.
I think logically, you’re right. The thing is, I could see them punishing us, and then not going after those other things. And I think they’d get away with it because if Penn State tries to kick and scream about it, they’d look like they were okay with what Sandusky et al did. And the public would be fine with it. I can’t imagine other schools coming to our defense either.
a rapidly defecting recruiting class, that for good measure is largely committing to rivals
Is this really true? We for sure lost O’Connor and Holtz. Spence was never committed to us. Camren Williams, Nyeem Wartman are considerd “soft verbals” but haven’t committed anywhere else. Sure, this could get worse but we’re not there yet.
Don't Forget..
Tommy Shutt de-committed and then went to O$U.. And demetrius cox is apparently on the fence too…
by Domin8ing the Big Ten(11) on Dec 21, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Williams Tweet
This tweet from Williams makes me believe he is still a pretty strong commit:
@CamrenWilliams5
Camren Williams
85 years ago the best coach in college football history was born. Happy Birthday JoePa! I pray for your health every day. #GetWellSoon
Some guy at PSU Hershey Med Center just discovered a virus that eats cancer. Where were the CNN trucks for that? THON will probably break $10 mil this year. Put that on "Outside the Lines".
I really hope so
I want to cheer so much for the kids that stick around during this.
Makes me think
he wanted to play for Joe. Right now he doesn’t know who he’d play for at PSU
Formerly known as kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Dec 21, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That could be
but either way it is just nice to see an 18 year old with a level head.
Some guy at PSU Hershey Med Center just discovered a virus that eats cancer. Where were the CNN trucks for that? THON will probably break $10 mil this year. Put that on "Outside the Lines".
He sounds like me.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
well I'd imagine he'd have to go to Penn State now.
I mean what other school would give a scholarship to an admitted child abuse enabler enabler?
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 21, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, there’s always the chance they rebound with the new hire, but until further notice things are only going to roll downhill, I think.
by Kevin Powers on Dec 21, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
I often think, life would be easier if I were a Forest Gump like simpleton
Not overthinking everything, just enjoying what life offers. I think that being an O$U fan might be like that; support a winning team without ever giving thought to all the shadyness that went into putting that team together.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
What's killing Penn State right now...
…is that any school that gets caught doing anything says; “hey, it’s not child rape”. And anybody who gets accused of child rape starts talking about Penn State. Seriously, Bill Conlon is a fat slob that lived nearly 200 miles away from Penn State, never had any connection to Penn State, and who sometimes, as part of his job as a god damned sportswriter, wrote positive things about Penn State. This guy gets accused of molestation; what do we talk about? You guessed it, Penn State!
I clicked on the Conlon story, and I swear to God, the Google Ad was “A message from Rodney Erickson”.
I’m not sure what else we can do at this point. Perhaps we could fund a University Department that does nothing but research time travel?
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Dec 21, 2011 1:05 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Yes.
Eating lunch at the Corner Room.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Dec 21, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Also Re: Time Travel: Has anyone seen this person around State College?
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Whatever holds the image of an angel IS an angel. The eyes are not the windows of the soul, they are the doors.
Yes, I am on twitter.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Dec 21, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
You're all doing it wrong.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Which is why...
you’d really like to see the BoT out in front of this more. PSU should be nailing everyone over the head with the fact that a.) They actually take the student-athlete thing seriously and give football players a quality education and b.) this really isn’t about PSU.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'd really like to see the BOT out in front too.
Of a train.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
by 06Lion on Dec 21, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Or an Airbus A330.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Whatever holds the image of an angel IS an angel. The eyes are not the windows of the soul, they are the doors.
Yes, I am on twitter.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Dec 21, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Damned if you do, damned if you don't
When the goal is to have the story go away, continuing to issue statements about it frustrates that goal. But they have got to hire an effing football coach at this point.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
As to your second sentence...
yes. As to your first sentence, it isn’t going away, probably for a very, very long time. So you have a BoT working towards an unattainable goal.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
They hired an PR firm
But as far as I can tell, they aren’t getting anything for their money yet.
I’m not a PR professional, but I’m a journalist who deals with a lot of PR people and know a disorganized PR op when I see one.
The PR operation at PSU has improved slightly in the last month, but only slightly. Erickson’s weekly statements are good, but they are still letting him out there to twist in the wind and take flak for stuff that he can’t control. Like they sent him to that faculty meeting and all the criticisms were about stuff that the BOT did or didn’t do. That’s not his fault, but the reports of it made it look like it was. A good PR flak could handle that better.
The best thing they’ve done yet is put out that statement right after McGloin and Drake got into it. That showed they aren’t hiding from it and that we can expect a police finding of some kind. I don’t think in the past there would have been a statement on that nor would Joe have let McGloin answer questions about it the next day.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
Well, we could
raise over $500,000 for child abuse victims. The school could donate some of the money from the bowl game to child abuse victims. Have a moment of silence before the football game immediately after the story broke. Surely people wouldn’t accuse us of doing those things for self-serving reasons. If only we could do those things people would see that we were trying to do our part.
I, for one, plan to continue my life long contempt for the powers that be and I fully expect to be disappointed with whatever choice is made. ~PSUgirl
by jman07 on Dec 21, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Given the competence of the Administration and BoT,
they likely made their Google Ad search terms rape-related on purpose.
A pandemic of cowardice sweeps the nation.
by WorldBFat on Dec 21, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There was an alumni magazine cover story on a prof trying to build one I think
Washingtonian and heartbroken Penn Stater -- My blog features the triumph of hope over experience that is being a DC sports fan (especially the Nats) as well as the Nittany Lions, life in BeltwayLand and other things I find interesting. @doubleuefwhy
I don't suppose
anyone is talking about possible NCAA sanctions for Syracuse…mmmmmm?
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
No
Their alleged, yet unproven child abuse happened a LONG TIME AGO so it doesn’t actually matter.
- BSD Bunnymaster (Thanks Paige)
- The only Adam on this blog who doesn't actually write for it.
That investigation is still ongoing
The other shoe may still drop.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
The PSU investigation is still ongoing too.
The alleged acts just happened to be within the statute of limitations.
- BSD Bunnymaster (Thanks Paige)
- The only Adam on this blog who doesn't actually write for it.
?
I meant just that the whole process is further along in the PSU case.
though there was still some kind of federal investigation going on in Syracuse. Maybe I’m wrong.
There doesn’t seem to be anyone looking into who knew what when in Syracuse. Maybe Boeheim didn’t know, but it seems like ESPN and the local paper is just willing to take his word for it while they aren’t willing to do the same for anyone at PSU.
I have yet to hear a cogent explanation for the historical reason why there are statutes of limitations on this crime. There aren’t for murder. If we can expect a jury to understand how evidence degrades over time in murder cases, you’d think we could ask juries to do the same in these cases, especially given that victims are by the very nature of the crime unlikely to speak out for many years.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
unfortunately there are statues of limitations on child sexual abuse
PA has a much longer stature of limitations, 50 years after the victim turns 18.
I’m an aspiring Joe Paterno Apologist®
the PSU/Syracuse thing is different at this point
PSU has a full investigation and grand jury presentment, a litany of testimony, etc.
The stuff at Syracuse just came out from the accusations of 2 people very recently. If you think more information needs to come out about PSU, theres 100X more information out there about PSU than the Syracuse situation.
No, I don't disagree
but the whole thing hasn’t blown up solely because of the statute of limitations. As I’ve said before, when the news of PSU’s broke, Paterno told kids to study and not worry about him, Boeheim attacked the victims.
- BSD Bunnymaster (Thanks Paige)
- The only Adam on this blog who doesn't actually write for it.
I dont know. I do know timing is an important factor
The relative minute nature of the allegations at Syracuse coming out after the Penn State megaton bomb is like watching Nickelback close for the Rolling Stones. You may take notice of the show, but all the while during it you are going to be talking/thinking about before.
Also, RE: Boeheim, you cant convince me his “blaming of the victims” at the time wasnt caused by the timing. First of all i dont think he blamed the victims, I think his reaction was that he found what the victms were saying to be completely incredulous, particularly coming out right after the Penn State stuff.
Timing plays more of a factor in the lopsided reporting here than bias or Jim Boeheim.
One Syracuse fan wrote “the difference is that we never thought Boeheim was anything but a complete asshole.” So he does benefit from low expectations, I guess.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What do you know? I actually agree with a 'Cuse fan on something.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Dec 21, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
my gf
is a cuse grad….she said the same thing
Believe deep down in your heart that you are destined to do great things
Perfectly put Kevin
Put aside the merit of acting without all the information for a second and agree with this: the accused have been punished and will be dealing with those consequences for the rest of their lives.
ACCUSED!. Nobody has been charged with anything yet! And we’re still looking at getting hammered by the NCAA and B1G?
I gave up on the B1G conference as soon as they removed Paterno’s name from the trophy. I could give two shits about Delany, that spineless cronie, and their affinity for OSU and scUM.
Re: OSU. That they got off fairly light is no big surprise to me. After all, their AD is basically in the NCAA’s ear on all sorts of matters.
Thanks for pulling that Artie...
I made an involuntary angry noise when I read that line…“The accused have been punished…”
Yep. Here in the Autocratic States of the NCAA, we punish first and find out the details later. Ready, fire, aim…that’s how we do it.
Honestly
I was surprised the OSU punishment was as “harsh” as it was. I don’t think what they did was worse than the USC thing, and Tressel got the punishment he deserved for lying to the NCAA
Formerly known as kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
So All of this talk of B1G Hatred...
Has got me thinking… would they consider tossing PSU out of the conference? I’m not trying to be dramatic, I’m genuinely curious what people have to say about it. PSU is the relative new kid to the conference and right now everything PSU is perceived to be toxic and could be for at least the next few years (Yet its amazing to me the O$U has come away from their doomsday smelling like roses just 6 months later, but thats another story).. They could argue that PSU won’t be generating much revenue for them in the near future and don’t want to associate with PSU any longer..?
by Domin8ing the Big Ten(11) on Dec 21, 2011 1:16 PM EST reply actions
I'd love it them to.
I’m sick of this conference.
We could take the largest alumni base in the nation (yes, its true), bowl payouts and potential TV revenue to the ACC.
by Artiefufkin10 on Dec 21, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
No chance
Despite the bloviating and posturing, the Big Ten is still happier than a pig in shit to have us in the conference. They’re just the abusive boyfriend and we’re the smoking hot chick with self-esteem issues.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
by 06Lion on Dec 21, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
they arent kicking us out
they have no problem with penn state winning multiple national championships in pretty much every other sport.
RAMZY
I can’t believe he wrote that shit. Didn’t you guys have him on a podcast? Seemed like a smart dude, but now he’s proclaiming wholesale administrative coverup?
Yeah, lets forget about due process.
When praising an Ohio State blogger, it is vitally important for one remember that the Ohio State blogger is an Ohio State blogger.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
praising a OSU blogger's intelligence
is like telling a midget he is the tallest midget
Reporter: Can you give us a touchdown celebration, one that you would get penalized for?
Moye: I play at Penn State. I don’t celebrate.
Stupid is as stupid does?
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Whatever holds the image of an angel IS an angel. The eyes are not the windows of the soul, they are the doors.
Yes, I am on twitter.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Dec 21, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
I just don't get this line of thinking
what advantage would anyone have in covering this up? There is absolutely no personal advantage to any of these men. If they had spoke of it initially, they would have been at least acknowledged as doing the right thing by coming forward. What would be gained by a “cover up”? They don’t have any financial incentive for the more money Penn State brings in, etc. It’s completely illogical to me. It’s a cover up, but no one said anything about not talking to anyone outside those “in the know”. And it’s a cover up, but let’s all testify to the grand jury and obviously not get our “stories straight” to look like we didn’t do anything wrong.
I just think it was stupidity and ignorance. No cover up.
Fire Dan Snyder
Yeah....
how do you punish stupid?
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
By refusing to dignify it?
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Whatever holds the image of an angel IS an angel. The eyes are not the windows of the soul, they are the doors.
Yes, I am on twitter.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Dec 21, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
It is Hanlon’s razor:
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
by VVeRPennState on Dec 21, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
the "cover it up" narrative is rampant because its easy and lazy
its easier to say Penn State covered it up than to investigate why the DA didnt file charges in 1998 or why the 2002 investigation soured, or why Sandusky was allowed to run this organization for 30 years, or why, after 11 or so victims came forward, no one else appears to have gone to police with any information regarding the abuse of those victims aside from the mother who reported it in 1998.
Nope, easier just to say Paterno and Curley covered this whole thing up to protect the “sanctity of the program” and their reputations which weren’t even on the line in the first place, than to use your journalistic acumen to get to the bottom of what the real issues here are. That would inhibit their ability to play angry birds at work.
by swiggy04 on Dec 21, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i'm not trolling
but to the outsider, there’s a lot of stuff that looks suspicious about how much people knew and when, and at least on the surface it’s not too much of a leap to suggest administrative coverup. i mean, the head of university police was informed about child rape committed by a university employee and he was simply banned from bringing kids on campus? that alone suggests to a reasonable person some sort of coverup.
i realize there’s probably details i’m not aware of, as someone who wasn’t followed the case as closely as a PSU fan would… i’m just saying it’s not an unreasonable conclusion to come to.
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Dec 21, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
It’s certainly not unreasonable to think it, but there’s no evidence of it. McQueary said he was never told not to talk to anyone. It’s plausible to think it, but there’s no evidence of it. The more I hear the more it sounds like there was no real evidence of any wrongdoing and Schultz knew there’d be no charges pressed so he didn’t bother. He should have had it investigated, but probably didn’t want bad press over something that he thought nothing would happen with. Which is really bad, but to say there is a cover up is a big jump. There very well may have been. There’s no evidence saying there wasn’t.
I am not trying to be a homer
But your statement are a good indication of the general public perception and they make several assumptions that are not yet supported by facts. I mean the following sentence contains at least three different aspects that have been hotly debated by various members of this site:
the head of university police was informed about child rape committed by a university employee
by VVeRPennState on Dec 21, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
The VP of Finance and business, who oversees the police force and who McQueary was told was “head of police,” was informed about supposed child rape where the witness didn’t see any contact between the alleged abuser and victim, which may or may not have been committed by a former university employee.
- BSD Bunnymaster (Thanks Paige)
- The only Adam on this blog who doesn't actually write for it.
by AdamShell on Dec 21, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
If you want to talk about cover up then you have to talk about the 2nd Mile too..
because Tim Curley reported the incident to them.
by Artiefufkin10 on Dec 21, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously
Where have they been throughout this entire thing? I feel that there is a whole lot of damning information (much more than PSU) concerning them that hasn’t been reported.
Run.
by Bob Sacamano on Dec 21, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
This is why
2nd Mile doesn’t sell papers. JVP does.
by Artiefufkin10 on Dec 21, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
absolutely
this isn’t just limited to the penn state employees. anyone involved should be nailed.
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Dec 21, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
"Simply banned from bringing kids on campus"
And telling the head of university police? Why? Because anything short of a lynch mob was inadequate?
/ohiostatelogiclol
GO IOWA AWESOME
i have no idea what point you're trying to get across
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Dec 21, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
i believe his point is that
you call it a cover up, and then explain in the same sentence how it couldn’t possibly be a cover up.
And then saying that this type of logic, where you contradict yourself in a matter of 2-3 sentences, is the same an Ohio State fan would use.
sure there is
otherwise i could be doing work at work. And during the holidays, I make every effort not to do that.
Honestly - I think you're responce to him was out of line
He asked a legit question in a non-trolling way and deserved – and I thought was getting – legit responses. There was no reason to insult him.
.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts
appreciate the comment but...
it’s not too much of a leap to suggest administrative coverup. i mean, the head of university police was informed about child rape committed by a university employee and he was simply banned from bringing kids on campus? that alone suggests to a reasonable person some sort of coverup.
A) he isnt a university employee
B) there is so much information that needs to be discovered before we can say the head of campus police was informed about child rape and what his ultimate actions were. We still have no idea what, if any, investigation took place. We dont know what they found out or didnt, we dont know who said what to whom and when.
We know Schultz found out something about Sandusky in the shower with a child. We found out Sandusky was later prevented from bringing kids to campus. the missing portion in the middle is quite crucial information to have prior to deciding whether he covered it all up or he did his job.
I mean the DA in 98 was told about child rape, and he didnt file charges. Are we assuming he covered it up too? Or assuming he did his job and found nothing? Or waiting on that crucial information in the middle before we cast judgment?
by swiggy04 on Dec 21, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
What I find fascinating and infuriating
Was how the AG clearly didn’t consider Schultz as police when filing failure to report charges, but had no problem referring to him as the “head of the University police” and inferring that McQueary must have told of something sexual in nature because he was involved.
The AG has played both sides of that card: whichever is worse for PSU-affiliated people at the time.
GO IOWA AWESOME
by ckmneon on Dec 21, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
the DA
not filing charges—and then completely disappearing, with his laptop at the bottom of a river and his hard drive destroyed—is part of what’s giving an air of suspicion to this whole thing. of course that’s suspicious in itself, but the leap comes in when someone tries to connect it to the Sandusky case. nothing’s proven, but… all the sudden it doesn’t seem extraordinary to make some narrative about all these events being related.
I completely agree with your second point about more information is needed, but don’t hide behind the “Sandusky wasn’t an employee” thing. sure, fine, he was already retired. but does that matter to the police, if they know crimes are being committed on university property? and if the “he’s not an employee” separation REALLY mattered, he wouldn’t have access to the facilities. he was a part of the university in every sense except being on the payroll.
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Dec 21, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
"don’t hide behind the "Sandusky wasn’t an employee" thing"
Then don’t say he was an employee, because he wasn’t.
Run.
by Bob Sacamano on Dec 21, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
this is what i dont understand
So someone at Penn State kidnapped and murdered Ray Gricar because he didnt file charges in 1998? If this was a conspiracy, didnt he do exactly what they wanted? Why 7 years later do they kill him and destroy a laptop he likely didnt even have in 1998? DO some people understand how ridiculous some of this stuff sounds?
by swiggy04 on Dec 21, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Sounds like the premise for a Nick Cage movie
National Treasure 3: Why are people still watching these?
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Dec 21, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
That first paragraph, as far as I'm concerned
Is some tinfoil hat conspiracy shit, not regular old conspiracy. I mean, how many cases came across Gricar’s desk? How many other people could have wanted to destroy his laptop and dump it in a river? I mean to make the leap that PSU decided to get rid of Gricar and his laptop in 2005 makes no sense. I mean, for starters, why 2005? Does the possiblity exist that Shultz ordered the hit on Gricar to protect the PSU brand and allow Jerry Sandusky to continue to run around with the Second Mile and volunteer at high schools? Umm, I guess. But that would imply that Shultz wasn’t a bumbling, incompetent idiot. Of course, he could be fooling us all by just pretending he’s a moron.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Dec 21, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
its outrageous
the idea that its not far fetched to make a leap of "Penn State covered it up.
And the evidence for that is that Schultz was told, later told Sandusky not to show up on campus with kids, and that the DA disappeared 7 years later.
This will be a new chapter in my book “How Law & Order has ruined America’s Understanding of Law and Reality.”
by swiggy04 on Dec 21, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It is more likely that his disappearance would be connected to the large million dollar drug ring he took down a couple of months prior to his disappearance.
Some guy at PSU Hershey Med Center just discovered a virus that eats cancer. Where were the CNN trucks for that? THON will probably break $10 mil this year. Put that on "Outside the Lines".
by Ben16 on Dec 21, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
really..
If there was going to be a huge coverup, why didn’t Schultz and Curley get together and blame it all on Gricar? He has been missing for 6 years, they could have said, we reported it to Gricar, who declined to prosecute in 98, not sure what happened after this.
(If we are going with conspiracy theories)
People like conspiracy stories but at the same time they do not like to look at all of the facts when making the story.
Some guy at PSU Hershey Med Center just discovered a virus that eats cancer. Where were the CNN trucks for that? THON will probably break $10 mil this year. Put that on "Outside the Lines".
Joe Paterno is the singer, Ray Gricar was his love.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I fully expected Knoxville Girl.
Not bad, though.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 21, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah...
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 21, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
Country has the best murder ballads, period.
SO CHILLING AND CREEPY. Why those chords and those tight harmonies? Oh, I know, just to scare me because I intrinsically love the sound of the song while my deep seated moral code is utterly revolted by the lyrics and, of course, you know that.
Gosh, it’s beautiful art. No other genre does the murder ballad like country.
More proof:
Porter and his ridiculous outfit: Cold Hard Facts Of Life
Waylon and that smooth Texas drawl: Cedartown, Georgia
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
Also, I love vague and frightening YouTube comments.
In response to a song about a man who murders his unfaithful wife, someone posts this:
dont mess with ol waylon. This song got me through a divorce
Interesting.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
I agree...
It seems even when the alternative bands try it…. they go with a country feel…..
All of our comments are irrelevant - LetsGoPSU
For additional edification,
here is Cold Hard Facts of Life performed at some tribute to Porter by the songs’ writer, Whisperin’ Bill Anderson.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
Also . . .
Gram Parson’s Kiss the Children is outstanding in its darkness. I can’t find (it is likely not extant) video except for this cover on YouTube.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
Not quite
Sandusky was around, but his non-employee status does matter for a few reasons. One, he really didn’t have any regular contact with JoePa or the team, so they really wouldn’t have had a clue what he was up to. That matters with respect to who should have known what.
He had access to the facilities, but that really doesn’t mean much. Almost anybody has “access to the facilities” at Penn State, especially back then. I grew up in State College. As a kid, we ROUTINELY played floor hockey in rec hall illegally, got told to leave, and then came back a week later. We hopped the fence and played touch football on the PSU practice field. A few times, somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody would get us into Holuba Hall. It’s not Fort Knox (although oddly, the campus cops got really worked up about making sure everyone’s bike was registered). Granted, not everyone has a key to the Lasch Building, but I’m sure Sandusky is on a long list of non-coaches and staff that had access, because PSU was very wide open. It still is to a large extent. The building across from the football offices where Sandusky’s “emeritus” office was located is pretty much wide open. A bunch of other sports have offices in there and the hockey and rugby teams have their weight room in there. I’ve been in there to buy hockey tickets. Pretty much anybody can walk in there and hang out and there are always lots of athletes and coaches coming and going. I’m told that the dorms didn’t even have key cards until the mid 1990s.
Ohio State fans might not understand this kind of openness because Columbus is a big city and I suspect OSU has been more secure for longer. Just guessing.
As for Gricar, there’s no story there.
A) He disappeared SEVEN years after the situation in 1998.
B) As the DA, he knew lots of dirt on lots of people. If we’re going to assume he was murdered despite no evidence to that effect, there’s no reason to start with Sandusky on the list of suspects.
C) Many people still living and breathing knew about that case and have talked about it publicly. So why would anyone whack him but not all the other people who could talk about it?
D) Gricar was kind of a weird dude to begin with.
E) He was never a friend of JoePa. If he dropped the case, it’s because he didn’t think it was worth pursuing, not because he was protecting Penn State.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Who "whacks" a DA
…that chooses NOT to prosecute? The connection fails a basic logical test.
"I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
-Eric "Otter" Stratton (Tim Matheson), Animal House, Universal Pictures (1978).
by PSUPhD90 on Dec 21, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I see
swiggy04 had already made this point, above. But how about this for a wild-ass, unsubstantiated theory (since this is what it’s all about, right?)…and I’ll answer my own question. Who would kill Gricar? A pissed-off parent.
"I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
-Eric "Otter" Stratton (Tim Matheson), Animal House, Universal Pictures (1978).
Sports by Brooks figured out the whole Gricar thing
Joe had the Mob take care of it. Because, you know, Joe is Italian and therefore in the Mafia
I’m an aspiring Joe Paterno Apologist®
That's just straight-up racist
I’m surprised it took somebody this long to come up with that obscenely offensive angle.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
everything Sports by Brooks writes is obscenly offensive
I’m an aspiring Joe Paterno Apologist®
by letsgopsu on Dec 21, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Indeed
Is he one of the sites that PennLive links to?
They’ve done some good reporting, but they undercut it by putting up that “other links” section which links to some awful stuff, and they have that terrible “what do you think?” Section where every nutjob and ignoramus can write in with their take and get it printed in the paper along side actual news.
I’m not interested in the semi-lucid rantings of Bob from Coudersport. If I wanted that, I could listen to talk radio.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
I have no idea if PennLive links to Brooks
Also, DO NOT go to his site. Don’t give him the click. He is so vile that Rupert Murdoch comes to him for advice.
I’m an aspiring Joe Paterno Apologist®
by letsgopsu on Dec 21, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Laying the lumber, letsgopsu...
rec’d.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Whatever holds the image of an angel IS an angel. The eyes are not the windows of the soul, they are the doors.
Yes, I am on twitter.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Dec 22, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I would totally be interested in the rantings of Dirk from Coudersport.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
I used to get mad about this type of thing
being full-blooded Italian.
But then I realized that the vague public fear that I may have mafia connections can sometimes aid me in life, I guess.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 22, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
quick story
I once had my PSU ID card stolen and some charges were put on it before I realized and canceled it. I somehow found out who stole it (by piecing together where it had been used, what dorm hall it had been swiped at, and who had been around that day where my card was taken) and approached that person.
I pretended that I thought it was this person’s friend, and made a bunch of veiled references to not wanting to have to get my uncle involved. I told the kid to talk to his friend and let him know that I knew it was him or whatever. The next day, I got a call and the kid came and met me in the lobby of my building and gave me the amount of money that had been spent on my card, apologized profusely, and said he hoped we could just forget about everything and that it was a stupid drunk thing and not personal.
Now in reality, my uncle is a police officer. So I wasn’t being dishonest. But I don’t think that’s the implication he took from the conversation.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 22, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Because of the force field?
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 23, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
Ray Gricar walked/drove away from his life
why and how he did this we may never know. The day he disappeared, he left information on his desk on “how to replace a district attorney.” In 2005.
His brother “walked” into the Great Miami River in 1996 – ruled a suicide.
The weekend Gricar disappeared the media (ie Nancy Grace) went nuts – the national attention petered out very quickly.
It would be extraordinary if his disappearance was related – anything is possible – but it would be extraordinary.
Yeah
But if he was destroying evidence, why would he also need to off himself?
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
i dunno
maybe because he would find it difficult to walk into work and explain how his hard drive just disappeared over the weekend, and how even of they sent someone to find it, the information on it would be unretrievable.
Also they never recovered a body. Its possible he just walked away from his life. Is it likely? No. But its just as possible as JoePa killing him and destroying his hard drive to protect Jerry Sandusky.
98 wasn't a rape
I don’t think rape was part of the 98 report, as I recall. A naked bear hug, I believe. That’s not ok, but it’s not enough for a rape case, I suppose. The DA wasn’t the only one who didn’t think that was worth pursuing. CYS dropped it. The cop who now says that he wished it had been pursued has had 13 years to speak up and hasn’t.
The hard truth is that short of actual film of the guy raping a child, it’s very hard to prove these kinds of allegations. There are rarely any third-party witnesses and, as we’ve seen with McQuery, even when somebody thinks they saw something, they may not have really seen it. That’s one reason why only one in ten abuse cases are ever reported.
If anyone is guilty of a cover-up here, it’s the leadership of The Second Mile. Schultz and Curley told them about this case and they didn’t do anything, even though the kid in question was almost certainly one of theirs and, as an organization dealing with kids, they should be equipped to deal with these things. Some of the actual journalism on this case (I know, it’s hard to find) reports that The Second Mile’s command structure was very f’d up and was set up to be loyal to Sandusky rather than the charity itself and the whole husband-and-wife leadership team presented all kinds of conflicts of interest. Worse, there are multiple reports from donors that they flat out lied to them about what was going on with the investigation.
I hope that somebody else who knows how to run a charity profitably can pick up their work. There’s a lot to be said for paring troubled kids with football players as role models. But The Second Mile name is forever tainted.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I dont do criminal law
but my understanding was any indecent contact with a child 13 or under in the state of PA fell under the category of rape. Maybe its not specifically a “rape” charge though.
I see
But the distinction is important, I think, for the purposes of evidence. I can see how Gricar could think “I’m never going to be able to convict a pillar of the community for hugging a kid.” Whereas if he had evidence of it-shall-not-be-named, he’d have to pursue it, for his own sanity if nothing else.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
you leave an important part out
"I’m never going to be able to convict a [NAKED] pillar of the community for hugging a [NAKED] kid."
When you add naked to both of them, methinks it is a bit easier to convince the community what he did was wrong.
I digress, this is really not the point of anything. But its true.
That's right
I took the naked bit out because I figured we all knew that and I didn’t want to put anymore horrifying images in peoples’ heads.
Either way, it would be a tough case. He’d probably have to put the kid on the stand, which always sucks.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
naked pillar of the community
added to euphemism list
A pandemic of cowardice sweeps the nation.
by WorldBFat on Dec 21, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
naked pillar of the community
MARK MAY!
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
swiggy - you fell into the same trap
you say “DA in 98 was told about child rape…”
Roughly, what seems to have been made public, at this point, is a boy came home with wet hair & his mother reports about some potential abuse. Unless there is something different in the full police report, it was considered inappropriate actions involving a showering situation. Not a good thing, but does not rise to the level of rape.
oh i dont know what the DA was told either
im making the same point about the DA as I am with Schultz. My point here is if you believe that Schultz was “told about child rape,” then youd have to believe that the DA was in 1998. And if that is the case why arent you up in arms about the DA’s “failure to do something” as much as you are about Schultz’s.
There is an awful lot in the middle that needs to come out in the DA’s part as well. It just seems people who leap to the conclusion the PSU covered it up are far more willing to let information come out about the DAs office before they leap to conclusions there.
Or they assume Paterno just killed the DA. That also works I guess.
Its an unfortunate human trait
Decide your hypothesis and spend the rest of the time trying to make the facts prove you were right, no matter how ridiculous it gets.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Dec 21, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He's a good guy, and a good blogger.
I actually had reservations about including the line, but he can handle it, I’m sure. I enjoyed talking to him on the podcast. He has an oversimplified understanding of the situation, but I’ve found over last month or two that being of that disposition and being smart are not mutually exclisive. In fact there are a lot of writers I really respect who have signaled the same symptom, which is probably some combination of (1) just not wanting to know too much about the details, (2) reading headlines, which have been misleading at times, and (3) surcoming to the reality that this is a really complex situation.
by Kevin Powers on Dec 21, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
I've come to the same conclusion about a lot of people
Most people (even smart ones) have not been consumed by this story. Therefore, their understanding is based on news reports (sometimes flat-out wrong, but often misleading), headlines and assumptions. A pretty intelligent, generally well-read co-worker (with no particular agenda) told me the other day that the BoT must have known that Paterno was more involved, or they wouldn’t have fired him.
It’s incredibly frustrating.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
That's pretty dumb
They fired him because it was the politically expedient thing to do. Even people I know who fully agree with their decision acknowledge that was their reason. The issue is whether the political/PR needs of the university trump the needs to be fair.
They never met with Joe or asked to hear his side because it didn’t matter. His continued presence was just keeping the firestorm going.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm well aware of that
and in the end it didn’t end the firestorm at all.
What I’m referring to is the view of people who aren’t part of the Penn State community or who don’t come to BSD to get more information . . . their understanding tends to be sketchy and generally wrong.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
I know
I’m just offering something you can say to people who say stuff like that.
It’s hard to say what would have happened had Joe coached the last three games. It’s hard to imagine it being any worse, but it could have been.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
This is exactly why you are cut out for this gig
You’re a good guy and a good blogger. That you had reservations about including that line says a lot about the difficulty of the whole bloggy endeavor: that there’s sometimes a (professional?, I guess so given the coin and the grottoes you’re building) need to get along with the frenemies.
On the other side, continued inclusion of those kinds of lines in the OPs says a lot about the authors. If it’s in the name of trying to be a good blogger by being provocative, then … my own reaction was just puppeteered and we’re all part of one big trollee exercise. Then I guess I’m the fool and I’m just hatin the game and not the playa.
But I don’t believe that. When writing is the endeavor, there are hardly any rules and, just like in life, your body of work becomes your track record becomes your character. We’ve seen enough from that cat now to know.
jtothetweet
Make sure this dead horse doesn't move while I go get my beatin' stick.
by jtothep on Dec 21, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
He may be a good guy, but he's also competely lazy.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
Why can't you believe that?
B/c of his stellar track record otherwise?
B/c he’s followed by the big wig bloggers?
B/c he’s quippy?
B/c you think he might be a good dude to have a beer with? I don’t. He seems to me like a bro who would otherwise impinge upon my enjoying a beer with any number of good dudes, just by virtue of being in the bar at the same time.
Our guys have to work with him, so they mostly keep his name out their mouths, but that dude is the Queen Douche of that entire douchey operation.
jtothetweet
Make sure this dead horse doesn't move while I go get my beatin' stick.
by jtothep on Dec 21, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
One of the amazing things about the SBN psychology to me
is the change in behavior people have from one forum to the next. It seems to me people believe tha because this is a PSU specific site, that what they say “stays in the family.” I think his behavior in a post on his own site is probably vastly different from his interactions with our writers.
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by PSUinBOSSton on Dec 21, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I know that we're trying to prepare for the worst
but let’s not speculate what is to come. The bottom line is that the alleged atrocities were committed by someone that was not a Penn State employee. Therefore the only thing that reasonably makes sense for the NCAA to administer discipline for is Schultz & Curley.
I’ve already battened down the hatches and braced for impact. The doom and gloom speculation isn’t accomplishing anything and continues to breathe life into the scandal. I know it’s hard to sit and wait, feeling powerless, but that’s why we need to be constructive. If the actions of Sandusky, Schultz and Curley are held against us as a university, then the $500k we raised for RAINN should also be taken into consideration. And so should the donations we make from the bowl revenue. Let us build up a mountain of accomplishments that relegates the scandal to the shadows it belongs in.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Dec 21, 2011 1:25 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
I don't see how the penalty could be football related
If the NCAA dishes out a penalty it would have to be on the whole athletic department. There is no reasonable way to punish JoePa for properly reporting the case or Mike McQueary for doing the same thing. You can make moral judgements all you want, but the NCAA can’t do anything about that. (If they want to I’m fine with that. They just need to start suspending coaches who get DUIs, take scholarships away from schools that have coaches who run up the score, impose postseason bans on Cincinnati and Xavier for their brawl, it’s a very slippery slope where they draw the line.) The people that should be punished are Schultz and Curley. Curley is/was the AD and he’s the one who dropped the ball. Therefore it’d have to be a punishment of the whole athletic department if they were actually wanting to do something. Not sure how you are going to take scholarships away from the field hockey team as punishment for this.
If anything my guess is there will be probation and they’ll want to keep a close eye on things. I just don’t see how the penalty can be football specific. Think about the message they send if the football program is punished. They will say that not only do football coaches have to report crimes to their bosses, but they have to see to it that the criminal is punished. Wouldn’t they basically be saying that football coaches are their own bosses? Some can argue that this may be the case, but the NCAA would never say that. That’s the exact opposite of what they wan to say.
by psfann on Dec 21, 2011 1:36 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
You make a good point
If they punish the football program they are punishing the two people who actually took the proper steps to report the incident and get it investigated. Thanks for actually reporting something to the people you were supposed to. For doing what you were supposed to, here’s a shiny NCAA penalty. That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
Everyone take note. If you follow procedure you’ll get in trouble, so its best to just cover this stuff up.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Dec 21, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think for one second the NCAA will actually have any penalties relating to this incident
(then again I didn’t think JoePa would get fired, so I obviously don’t know anything about how other people will act)
What I do think will happen is that they’ll find every little minor infraction they can find about ANYTHING, and tack in the largest penalty they can, and then look at all the penalties as a whole and tack on lack of institutional control.
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 21, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
Here's what I think
Ohio State fans arguing that their crimes are small in comparison to UNC and Miami would be like us saying that PSU administrators should be let off the hook because our scandal isn’t as bad as the catholic churches. Just because there are worse cases out there doesn’t mean that yours isn’t bad
The big difference to me is that the Ohio State case is a football case. Their head coach knowingly did nothing in order to win. JoePa reported this up the chain of command and the AD did nothing. He’s basically been fired and the school doesn’t stand behind him. When Tressel’s stuff came out they said the AD or president (can’t remember which) said that he hoped Tressel wouldn’t fire him. So, if they want to punish the whole athletic department I’m okay with it. I will disagree with it, but be okay with it.
by psfann on Dec 21, 2011 1:42 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
It makes no sense
to me personally, in all of these NCAA cases, to punish a school or program at large for the actions of a select few. I don’t think USC or OSU should have been punished the way they were. The NCAA, the universities involved and the schools’ respective conferences should work together to determine a punishment for the INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED. Don’t allow Carroll, Bush, Tressel, Pryor etc to be employed by a university, college football program or be allowed on campus for x number of years. Take away eligibility for x amount of time for players who take money or whatever else. But don’t take it out on the innocent students, student-athletes and fans for something a couple idiots did. And the same should go for us as well, if it is eventually proven by whichever investigative body that there was negligence involved.
If your cousin is found guilty of a crime and is sent to prison, the police don’t punish the whole family, do they? They don’t punish your cousin’s neighbors, do they? No, they don’t, since that would be inane and pointless to punish people who aren’t involved in any way. It baffles me that the NCAA can’t function with the same set of logic that most other people use every day to lead their lives.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
The NCAA came down..
hard on USC because USC pushed back a bit. The punishment they got is a joke for what actually happened.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You're right
but it wasn’t like the whole football program was giving the finger to the NCAA, it was the AD basically staring the NCAA down and saying ‘prove it.’ Not the smartest course of action on his part.
It just doesn’t sit well with me to cast a blanket punishment over a program if only several people are breaking the rules. If it’s something like SMU where the violations were not only rampant, but also very out in the open and celebrated in a way by people involved from top to bottom, then yeah, sanction the bejesus out of em. But if a couple players are getting paid, or getting cars or free lap dances, sanction the players for not knowing better (especially now that everyone and their grandma should know what constitutes a basic NCAA violation at this point in the game), sanction the coach for not having control of his program, sanction the AD for not keeping closer tabs on his coaches, but don’t sanction Johnny walk-on for being associated with an unscrupulous teammate, coach or AD, he didn’t do anything.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
I agree
I do get a bit of Schadenfreude from seeing OSU and USC knocked down a peg, but the NCAA’s approach is totally wrong. They punish all the wrong people and then let the actual violators move on to the NFL or NBA or, in the case of Calipari, move on to another school while his old school takes down the Final Four banners.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Frankly...
I don’t even think USC should have been really punished for the Reggie Bush thing. He got some benefits and his parents got a new house from someone totally unaffiliated with USC. Bush was too stupid to actually pay the guy back and he ratted him out. Rather silly really.
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
I still think the answer here is for (1) The NFL to sponsor a development league, or even a development program, and (2) the NFL to agree to a set framework in collaboration with the NCAA, so that you can’t dine and ditch in college and get away with it.
It wouldn’t be that hard to pull off.
by Kevin Powers on Dec 21, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
Except that it would be a massive money loser.
The NBA will probably never get the NBADL money they invested back. That, in my opinion, is largely because people who don’t want to watch the NBA, want to watch their University or find something else about college athletics very appealing. And that’s in basketball. A football development league would be infinitely more costly to run with all the overhead expenses. If you are the NFL and making so much money, why would you invest in such a money sink hole?
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by PSUinBOSSton on Dec 21, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm all for that
My favorite college sports are college hockey and college baseball (even though northern teams can never succeed in college baseball) . I like that the players don’t have to play in college in order to make it as pros. Baseball players can go straight to the minor leagues and hockey players can play in junior hockey. That way, you know that all of the players in college actually really want (or think they want to) be in college. It cuts down on farcical “one and dones” and stuff like that.
I wish football had a similar system, but as PSUinBOSSton points out, how can the NFL be compelled to create that? They pulled the plug on NFL Europe.
Objectively, both the D League and UFL are a higher quality of play than the college versions, but people aren’t interested because they don’t have that college connection. That shows me, at least, that most of what people are paying for when they watch college sports on TV or in person is not to see talented players but to enjoy the college atmosphere and support a particular “brand.” That needs to be kept in mind whenever we here apologists saying that college players are “slaves” and deserve a big part of the money. The truth is that their talent doesn’t matter quite as much as they might think it does.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
There’s no way the NFL ever actually entertains the thought of helping the NCAA out with the dine and ditch problem when it comes to NCAA violators (especially players). ‘Take care of your own house’ and so on and so forth. With coaches, it’s easier for the NCAA: if Calipari weren’t allowed to be employed by a university for x amount of years, it would be a significant punishment, because college sports are his bread and butter. Sure, he could go to the NBA, but if he gets fired there (which is likely, just look at Rick Pitino, etc), where does he have to go? Commentating? Urban Meyer is a prime example of how long a former coach can ride that train.
And Reed, to build off your statement about the college atmosphere, if you were to punish players to the extent that they can’t set foot on campus or be involved with the university for x number of years, I think that could potentially go a long way. Ex-players like going back for games, because many of them are looked upon like gods, no matter how successful they were in their post collegiate sporting career. To take that away from them could be significant too, since most alums love going back for visits. Enforcing it is a whole other issue, but if the NCAA were to threaten something like that, it might be a start.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
I don't see too many current student athletes being too worried about being banned in the future.
Especially the ones who think they’ll be huge NFL stars, and are already basically using the school with a 1 and done
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 21, 2011 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
Insurance.
It’s an insurance against college sports collapsing, by removing the “bad apples” or people who otherwise have no interest in college except to Cam Newton all over it.
They won’t do it now, but to do so would basically be a Black Swan example, in which the cost of prevention is never quantifiable in real terms if done, only in hindsight through inaction.
by Kevin Powers on Dec 21, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Ohio Staters are stupid.
fanbases get the blog they deserve, there is widespread belief in wrong information about the Sandusky mess, and the NCAA is a backwards, corrupt organization. In other words, everyone and everything gets a hearty, “YOU ARE WHO I THOUGHT YOU WERE.”
GO IOWA AWESOME
by ckmneon on Dec 21, 2011 2:04 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
PSU will undoubtedly be punished
simply because the Big Ten/NCAA can’t lose the battle to prove who hates child abuse the most.
As someone mentioned above, drug rings, murder, free benefits… there are no battles to see who hates those more. No one gives a shit.
365 beers from 365 different breweries in 365 days. Game on.
http://www.blognamedbrew.blogspot.com/
by Tailgate Shogun on Dec 21, 2011 2:26 PM EST reply actions
as a wise man once said
everyone does…kills people, murders people, steals from you, steals from me.
Obviously only filthy Penn Staters abuse little kids.
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 21, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My perspective
Ohio State: Punishment seems to fit the crime. However, I do think Tressel’s 5-year show-cause is absurd. The FTM charge levied after the Bobby DiGeronimo stuff came out was fair, and I think the punishment fits that. However, for those who are quick to judge Tressel’s actions, please read his testimony in front of the NCAA Committee on Infractions, and please do so with the same open-mind and objectivity with which I have approached the PSU situation. It’s a long read. Took me 4 1/2 horus to read it, but it’s pretty evident Tressel feared for the safety of the players. He had good reason to. As for the Failure to Monitor charge levied as a result of the charity events and over-compensated jobs, I have no problem with the NCAA in punishing us for that. That’s all on Gene Smith and Doug Archie, and they need to go. So I agree with the punishment except for Tressel’s 5-year show-cause. If you read the transcript from the COI meeting, and compare it with the COI report yesterday, you’ll find some serious contradictions within their judgment of Tressel.
As for the NCAA getting involved in the Penn State case: absolutely not. Just stop it. This doesn’t involve them. It’s much bigger than them.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 2:58 PM EST reply actions
What's your opinion of Gene Smith?
To be quite honest, I’m surprised he managed to get through that whole thing with his job.
by Artiefufkin10 on Dec 21, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Gene Smith is gone.
I’m hearing from a solid source that Smith will be gone sometime after the New Year, probably after the Trustees meet in February. Smith botched the whole thing from Day 1. The charity event and over-paid jobs is a legitimate case of Failure to Monitor, and that’s on Smith and Doug Archie. The program was under a microscope, and yet they didn’t pay attention when Pryor and others took off for a charity gig in Cleveland in February, and they signed off on Posey and Co.‘s summer jobs. Personally, I think if they signed off on them, then he should have stood up and defended the players for what they paid. I know DeVier pretty well. He’s not a dumb kid. Made honors all throughout high school (my high school, actually). Mrs. Posey is a good mother. I don’t think he’d be so dumb as to go off an commit other violations while under the microscope. Mrs. Posey explained that DeVier was paid more because he had a prevailing wage at a union job. He’d been there longer. She also said OSU knew this and signed off on it. And they threw DeVier under the bus. It makes no sense to sign off on something and then admit guilt. In doing so, Gene Smith and Doug Archie just admitted that they have no idea how the hell to handle their jobs. I do feel bad for DeVier. He screwed up by hanging around Pryor during his freshman year, and per Mrs. Posey, he knew he would eventually get in trouble for the stupid stuff he did with Pryor after his frosh year, which is why she encouraged him to move into an apartment with someone else despite Pryor’s instance that they get a place together. As it happens, DeVier took his mom’s advice and has been living with Entienne Sabino since his sophomore year.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
That's really interesting.
And a bummer. I was impressed Posey stuck around though. He’s a heck of a player. Hope he finds some success at the next level (for my Jets, ideally).
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 21, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Then he'll be with his brother!
My man Julian is on the practice squad with the Jets. With a full mini-camp and preseason training next year, he’s got a good shot at making the roster. Julian and DeVier are good guys, and having been a teammate of both, I can tell you they are phenomenal and very humble teammates. Very hard workers too. They don’t take their talents for granted.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Posey is really good
That catch he made against us this year was ridiculous.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 22, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
/Mark Sanchez armpunts into triple coverage at the idea of having another "receiver"
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Whatever holds the image of an angel IS an angel. The eyes are not the windows of the soul, they are the doors.
Yes, I am on twitter.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Dec 22, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Nice insight.
From my perception (and probably many others here on BSD), the situation looked like it was handled poorly by the OSU admin, though not as badly as PSU has handled this Sandusky thing.
If I were on that BoT, I’d take a hard look at Gordon Gee, who pretty much looked powerless after his words about Tressel.
by Artiefufkin10 on Dec 21, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, gee's comments were dumb.
But he’s a phenomenal university president. He’s not going anywhere, nor do I think he should. He’s done wonders for the university in terms of upgrading facilities, raising money, and boosting our academic profile. The faculty and BoT love him, and so do the current students. Firing him would be bad academic PR in the sense that the academic world would say to themselves “Well it’s obvious that Ohio State cares more about football than academics”. It’d be pretty tough to get elite visiting scholars and professors with that perception.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
It's not totally surprising that Gee was entirely tone deaf, but still an effective administrator.
One of the saddest parts about this whole ordeal is that Graham Spanier has been a leader on many national issues and was the “go-to guy” on all sorts of things. He did great things for the school entirely unrelated to the athletic program. That said, his crisis management skills were abysmal, and by that virtue alone he’s unqualified to be President of the university.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 21, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
yep, pretty much take the comment about Gee, and replace it with Spanier
take out the part about students loving him, too, and you get pretty much the same situation (in terms of the University President saying something monumentally stupid)
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 21, 2011 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
I like this information
Thanks for the background. It’s interesting to see that others (Mrs. Posey) saw TP for what he was and steered her son clear of him.
I’m an aspiring Joe Paterno Apologist®
I'd have more sympathy for Tressel if he didn't appear to have compliance issues dating back to his days at Youngstown State.
But your point is well taken.
@JPosnanski - I saw a girl crying tonight. When I asked why she said: "Because everybody lost."
#OccupyESPN
by Adam Collyer on Dec 21, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
me too, but this whole thing has caused me to be objective about these things
I am now 100% schadenfreude free
I’m an aspiring Joe Paterno Apologist®
I keep sports and real life separate
I enjoy seeing Pitt and OSU struggle because it might help our recruiting and because sports needs rivalries and pantomime villains to be fun, but the other seven days of the week I’m able to recognize that both of them (along with Notre Dame, the rest of the B1G and a number of other schools) are great universities doing great things for the world and their fans are not, as a rule, any worse than ours with some notable exceptions.
There are a few schools that I truly hate for real philosophical reasons, but none of them play D1a football.
My family is shot through with B1G rivalries. One set of cousins went to Iowa. On the other side are Ohio State people. One cousin went to MSU, is now going to OSU and supports their teams while dating a Wolverine who grew up in East Lansing. He’ll need therapy.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
Five years is excessive
Perhaps his excuse was valid, but the NCAA didn’t think so. I’m not sure who’s right, but just on principal, I like that the actual guy who lied is being punished as opposed to being allowed to just move on. But five years seems a bit much.
I don’t see how the other Admins have gotten away with it.
The Youngstown State thing just goes to show that even at the lower levels of the game, there are businessmen willing to corrupt the system. It’s insane, really. I know that YSU was a D1AA (I’ll be dead in the cold cold ground before I call it FCS) powerhouse in those days, but still, it’s freakin’ Youngstown State.
by reedjohnmiller on Dec 21, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
I agree.
I think a forced resignation and forfeiture of millions fo dollars in salary would be enough punishment for most people, and maybe instead of a show-cause, they say he has to sit out a year (like this year) and can’t be re-hired by his former institution.
The NCAA does not allow for affirmative defenses though. Which is a shame. Even our courts of law allow for affirmative defenses.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Also, if you read the transcript of Tressel's testimony...
… you’ll see where he makes reference to some shady recruiting tactics by someone else at another school during Pryor’s recruitment, but Tressel refused to name the institution. They were “going to give him things”. This could have very well been Penn State, but Tressel did not disclose who it was. I have a feeling if it were Oregon or WVU, he would have been less inclined to protect them than a Big Ten team with many close friends. Not that he would be so brazen as to point fingers at WVU and Oregon, but we all know Tressel, and would certainly drop subtle hints. But I’m thinking it was Penn State, and Tressel refused to disclose the name of the school to protect them and the conference.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
I'd say Joe's track record about 'giving players things' speaks for itself
150 dollar suit? See ya later Enis.
Free frosties? Cut that shit out.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Dec 21, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Thats interesting, but I'm not sure how much I believe that PSU would have "given" him something.
By all accounts, TP’s father loved Tom Bradley and it was no secret that Joe appreciated his skill set. That said, Pryor said he went to the NFL because they would better prepare him for the NFL.
by Artiefufkin10 on Dec 21, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not saying it was anyone in the athletic department
And given Penn State’s track record, I would doubt it was a coach or recruiter. Probably a booster. It only takes one bad booster to gawk over Pryor’s skill set, and then look at the rest of college football and say “Well I guess it’s going on everywhere. I’m just leveling the playing field for my alma mater”.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Boosters..
That’s another thing we’re gonna miss about JoePa. He really didn’t give a f—k about them.
I’d say its more likely that DickRod was trying to pull something, but you never know.
by Artiefufkin10 on Dec 21, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
It was not Penn State.
Ok? Simply not a possibility. Paterno himself would never have made such offers and no one in the AD would have done so either. And the odds of a booster making such offers are also astronomically and, frankly, almost laughably low. Paterno ran his program like a police state in terms of enforcing rules. According to our own hbeach08 (a former player), he once came down like a hammer on players for receiving a free book with discount coupons for Frosties at Wendys or something because he simply refused to allow the bad kind of boosters near his players.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
It is far, far more likely that Tressel kept quiet (That is, if he’s not lying about the whole thing; he’s obviously not a totally truthful person) to prevent exposing his own tactics.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
And what tactics would you be referring to?
I went to high school with DeVier Posey and Ben Martin. I’m good friends with Ben, whom Tressel lost to Tennessee. Ben was the most highly recruited defensive end from the 2007 class. Just two months ago I was down in Knoxville for the LSU-Tennessee game staying at Ben’s house. Ben assured me that Tressel did not engage in shady recruiting tactics. Furthermore, he was upset that Tressel was smeared like he was. He really liked Tress.
I’m not accusing Paterno or his staff of anything. In fact, I think they are/were completely clean. But that’s not to say a booster could not have gone rogue. It happens everywhere. Probably more so in the SEC. It has certainly happened at OSU. And while PSU has remained relatively clean, it is not impossible that a booster could have been courting Pryor. And that should be no reflection on JoePa or his staff. That’s simply something they can’t control.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
This.
I hate agreeing with a Buckeye (RABBLE HATE RABBLE), but to think there aren’t shady and nefarious PSU boosters is short sighted and naive. Granted, most don’t rise to the level of Nevin Shapiro, but there are shady people all over the country.
___
Black Shoe Diaries
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by Jeff Junstrom on Dec 22, 2011 8:03 AM EST up reply actions
Have I denied that there were shady and nefarious PSU boosters?
No.
What I am arguing is this much: if any booster so much as thought about offering Pryor anything, Joe would somehow know about it. I don’t believe that Joe Paterno was the GOD OF CENTRAL PENNSYLVANIA fools portray him to be, but, from everything I know, I believe that any shady and nefarious boosters would have been too afraid of him to think they could offer Pryor anything without getting hit with the hand of god.
Look at Paterno’s record and my contention won’t seem short sighted or naive.
As for my jab at Tressel’s recruiting tactics, that is something I can’t prove and I shouldn’t have said it. But I do admit I grow weary of Buckeyes trying to salvage the man’s reputation.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 22, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Just a word about Tressel
Cheater. Ha, that’s one word.
No, but, seriously, he probably didn’t use Direct Sleazy Recruiting Tactics. His advantage came from the word through the grapevine: “Hey, look at all the crap you can get in Columbus!”
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 22, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm only trying to salvage his reputation...
… because I have met him several times, and even had a one on one conversation with him after track practice once after a tragedy had struck my life. He is a genuine and caring man. He is not a phony. He was never too busy to reach out to a Buckeye in need of support, whether they were a student or a student-athlete.
One mistake – and yes, I do acknowledge that Tressel mishandled this. He should have gone to the University’s general counsel, as he acknowledged (not compliance) – should not undo all of the good that this man did over 30 years. And I will fight for JoePa’s reputation as well, because one misunderstanding or mishandling of a situation should not undo 60 years of good works.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 22, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd this
I’ve enjoyed all of your contributions except the somewhat unnecessary rumor-mongering and conclusion-drawing that Tressel’s vague comment re: shady recruiting was probably referring to Penn State. Other than that, I’m feeling your perspective.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 22, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
What salvage operation is truly needed?
The general consensus on these here internets is that Jim Tressel was a “good guy” but a cheater. I’d say that’s an accurate if pithy characterization.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 22, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
Could it have been Michigan?
Weren’t they recruiting Pryor as well?
11/9/11 - the day the music died.
The bitter with the better.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 21, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
That was the final 3.
Leaders Co-Champions
by PSUinBOSSton on Dec 21, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
I have to question the knowledge or motive
of someone in his situation. So he didn’t know OSU was going to give him something at the time he recruited Pryor? But Pryor was telling him that the other schools were offering him something? Why would Pryor volunteer that unless it was to send a message that OSU had to beat that? And how could Tressel know about it without implicitly approving of it?
What was the context of him mentioning that? How would the NCAA let him get away with not naming the institution? What am I missing here?
Leaders Co-Champions
by PSUinBOSSton on Dec 21, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
You'll need to read the transcript of Tressel's testimony
All of this info was divulged to the Committee on Infractions in their discussions as to why Tressel trusted ted Sarniak. One of the many reasons was that Ted would tell Pryor “No Terrelle. You shouldn’t make your college choice based on what they’re going to give you. That’s not right.”… By all accounts, Ted Sarniak was essentially Pryor’s real father and was helping him make good decisions, and one of the reasons Ted was pleased with Pryor’s choice of OSU was because they weren’t engaging in the shenaningans that other schools were in recruiting him. Ironic, though.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting
By all accounts, Ted Sarniak was essentially Pryor’s real father and was helping him make good decisions, and one of the reasons Ted was pleased with Pryor’s choice of OSU was because they weren’t engaging in the shenaningans that other schools were in recruiting him. Ironic, though.
I’ve seen the exact opposite painted of Sarniak
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Dec 21, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
We have a very reliable source here with great knowledge of Ted Sarniak.
Based on what he tells me, the man you are describing is not him. If that information (someone trying to pay Pryor) came from Sarniak, then (in my opinion) it isn’t worth anything.
Although the transcript is sounding more and more interesting.
Leaders Co-Champions
by PSUinBOSSton on Dec 21, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
That's a fair point.
Pryor never said whether he was shopping his talents or whether other schools/boosters were offering him incentives. It was Sarniak that told Tressel that other schools were offering him things, but Sarniak never went as far as to say Pryor was shopping himself (though I wouldn’t be surprised).
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, that's much better for Tressel.
Regardless of whether you think Sarniak is a good role model or violations enabler, it certainly would be worse if Pryor were saying it directly to Tressel. I’m probably at my tipping point in this discussion without reading the transcript.
Leaders Co-Champions
by PSUinBOSSton on Dec 21, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yup...
And I don’t doubt that Sarniak was providing financial support to Pryor. Their relationship went back to Pryor’s middle school days, and he literally was Pryor’s father figure. Under certain circumstances under NCAA rules, if the relationship with a student athlete precedes his high school playing days, and that person is not a booster, agent, or coach, then such financial support is actually permissible, which is probably why the NCAA never investigated violations with Sarniak providing Pryor with money.
It’s very possible that Sarniak was a very shady guy. But if that’s true, then he put on a facade in front of Tressel, because Tressel praised Sarniak as a good person and a caring individual in his testimony. He even used tehterm father figure, and stated that TP’s dad “really wasn’t in the picture” and stuff.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
If that's true, "father figure"
doesn’t that make it pretty shitty that Pryor used him to claim an NCAA violation and get eligible for the NFL draft?
Leaders Co-Champions
by PSUinBOSSton on Dec 21, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, he didn't use Sarniak to claim a violation.
That was reported by ESPiN and others, but was never corrected. The violation that Pryor ended up claiming was his refusal to cooperate with NCAA authorities.
Also… in regards to the father figure thing, this is directly from the NCAA COI Report… “The advisor” is Ted Sarniak: "The advisor developed a relationship with student-athlete 5 during the student-athlete’s freshman year in high school. That relationship was evaluated by the NCAA and institution in 2008. Based on the available information, it was concluded that the advisor was not a representative of the institution’s athletics interests and that benefits he provided to student-athlete 5 did not violate preferential treatment legislation. During his February 8, 2010, interview with the enforcement staff, the former head coach reported that the advisor was student-athlete 5’s “mentor” and “his only solid parent figure.”
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
So ESPN reported something wrong and never corrected it?
Shocking
.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts
FIRE CRAIG JAMES
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Whatever holds the image of an angel IS an angel. The eyes are not the windows of the soul, they are the doors.
Yes, I am on twitter.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Dec 22, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Obligatory rec
Way may need to switch it to “Vote for James!” though. I’d rather have him in Congress than have to listen to his broadcasts. He’s an idiot who smears those who disagree with him and he allegedly killed five hookers. So bascially, he’s perfect for politics. He’ll fit right in. Can’t be any dumber than the idiots presently residing in Washington DC.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 22, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, it's only alleged that he killed five hookers?
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 22, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
The allegations have not been proven to date
but neither have the allegations been DENIED…
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Whatever holds the image of an angel IS an angel. The eyes are not the windows of the soul, they are the doors.
Yes, I am on twitter.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Dec 22, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It may have been what they reported,
but weren’t they told that by his lawyer? I’m not fan of ESPN, but I mean, if the guy’s lawyer tells you that I think you are justified in taking him at his word.
Also, OSU denied that Pryor reported the other violation, but do we know for a fact that he didn’t? I didn’t think the NFL ever released that information.
Leaders Co-Champions
by PSUinBOSSton on Dec 21, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
Good question. And that I don't know.
As stated earlier, Sarniak was allowed to give financial support to Pryor as if he were his father. The NCAA knew and approved of this. So the only violation that Pryor could have really committed via Sarniak is if Sarniak funneled extra benefits to Pryor from other sources (a la Cam and Cecil Newton… allegedly, of course).
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
Sarniak was cleared in 2008 of
gifts, lodging etc related to Pryor’s recruitment. However, the opinion (letter from the NCAA and one from OSU compliance) said that from that date forward he could not provide benefits to Pryor because his relationship did not meet the NCAA’s “pre-existing relationship” standard.
So if Pryor took anything from Sarniak after Sept 17, 2008, it was a violation.
Leaders Co-Champions
by PSUinBOSSton on Dec 21, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
You might be right.
But the NCAA never sought info from Pryor regarding benefits from Sarniak. They approached him for info regarding the charity event sponsored by Bobby DiGeronimo, at which point he refused to cooperate.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
Just checked... you are right.
Sarniak’s financial support of Pryor during his recruitment and prior to his enrollment was fine, but he did not meet the criteria for a “pre existing relationship” to continue providing support for Pryor.
Oddly enough, it was Sarniak who picked up the bill at a dinner with him, Pryor, and two coaches out recruiting Pryor. Apparently it’s an NCAA violation to pay for a coach’s dinner if they’re out there recruiting. Weird…. side note: most sleaz-balls I know would tag along for a free dinner and let the recruiters pick up the bill. They wouldn’t offer to pay. Just a thought.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Also, I very well respected member of this community
Has stated something to the effect of Pryor shopping around his skills, asking for things. At which point Joe pretty much said I don’t think this will work out
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Dec 21, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Judging by Tressel's testimony, this seems to be true
But it was Sarniak who told him he shouldn’t do that. Through this all, Sarniak was honestly trying to guide him in making good decisions.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
I'll read the transcript
and give Tressel the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
However, the long trail of NCAA infractions following from Youngstown makes me very skeptical of Tressel.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Dec 21, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah... but in regards to Youngstown...
… I can tell you what the policy is in that city:
“Don’t ask. Don’t tell. Don’t wanna know.”
Big time mob city, especially while Tressel was there. I’m talking like the shit you hear about in the movies, complete with cops at gambling outfits and witnesses and DAs getting whacked. And we all know sports are tied to gambling. I’m sure Tressel just didn’t ask and didn’t want to know.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
You forgot car bombs.
That place is not in Ohio.
Yeah...
we know all about DAs getting whacked.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 22, 2011 6:29 AM EST up reply actions
From my understanding of an apocryphal recruiting story
the only thing Paterno wanted to give Pryor was a black eye.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 22, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
lol. Must be apocryohal.
Knowing DeVier, that probably isn’t true. He’s an easy guy to get along with. Kind of soft-spoken actually.
Also, I don’t think DeVier was ever offered by PSU nor did he ever take a visit. I believe his only visit was OSU. Mrs. Posey really wanted him to stay close so she could see both Julian (who was at Ohio U) and DeVier play as much as possible.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 22, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
I was talking about Pryor!
I understand, some times I get mixed up within subthreads as well.
The apocryphal story is that Paterno got so infuriated by Pryor’s attitude during an in-home visit that he stayed silent for a few minutes (probably stewing in anger), excused himself politely and bid good luck to Terrelle and his mother, got in the car with Bradley and McQueary, and then didn’t say a word until he told them to pull over at a liquor store, grabbed some OG, took a pull and then went off on an angry rant about the kid and Sarniak, in his signature high-pitched, raspy Brooklyn accent.
Probably didn’t happen like that, but that’s a story I heard once and wish to be true.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Dec 22, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, sorry. It does say Pryor. Not sure why I read Posey.
But, yeah, now I’m much more inclined to believe that story.
Pryor was an arrogant cocky SOB. The best thing that happened through all this mess and his struggle to get into the NFL supplemental draft was that he was extremely humbled. It may end up being the best thing that ever happened to him.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 22, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
It's so awesome that OG is the acronym for Joe's drink of choice
Also, in that story, that purchase almost certainly qualifies as Situational Bourbon.
jtothetweet
Make sure this dead horse doesn't move while I go get my beatin' stick.
by jtothep on Dec 22, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Most definitely.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
I also want to say that I enjoy your guys' objectivity and civil discussion with me
There are a lot of Buckeye fans screaming “Eff the NCAA” without knowing the facts. There are a lot of Buckeye haters that are screaming it wasn’t enough, without knowing the facts. I’m here to clear it up for both sides. After ironing out ever detail and ACTUALLY READING all of the NCAA transcripts, I must defend Tressel, but I have no problem with the Failure To Monitor charge levied for the violations after tat-gate. Gene Smith and Doug Archie screwed up royally, and we deserve our punishment.
But like I said, i must defend Tressel. He made it pretty clear that he was afraid for the players’ safety. You can say that’s BS. You can say he’s lying. But you can’t prove what Tressel felt, anymore than you can prove that JoePa and Co knew that Sandusky was a shady pedophile and therefore dropped the ball. Tressel didn’t understand the levity of the situation, because all the facts were not conveyed. JoePa, Spanier, et al did not understand the gravity of the situation, because too many facts were unclear. In both cases, I give the benefit of the doubt to both Tressel and JoePa, because I can’t prove exactly what they were told, what facts were conveyed, and what they felt.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Tressel may have feared for the safety of the players
but that seems a pretty naive or flat out stupid feeling to have when they are already involved in the federal investigation. It isn’t like Tressel was going to be reporting this to ANYONE. All he’d have to do is sit the kids due to the always vague “violation of team rules” pending the investigation.
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 21, 2011 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You know, I thought of this too.
I thought, maybe in hindsight, he should have sat the guys for violating “team rules”. But there’s still the chance that ESPiN or Yahoo Sports digs around and finds out the reason, and thus there names are leaked in regards to the federal investigation. There’s also the issue with confidentiality. Like I stated many times, you really need to read Tressel’s testimony. It helps explain a lot.
Suspending those guys for “violation of team rules” could be akin to Penn State’s barring Sandusky from the PSU facilities. It’s an admission that something bad happened, but we don’t know quite how bad or the levity/gravity of the situation. In hindsight, neither reaction would have been/was enough for the court of public opinion.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
So long as the punishment was even remotely near being adequate, then that's fine, I don't think anyone would accuse them of doing too little.
Maybe they’d still call for more sanctions once the truth came out, but at the very least it cuts off the firestorm before it begins.
Now if there really was some reason to be scared, then you can handle it in a more confidential manner. Just completely ignoring it (and that could be even worse, as now you’re turning a blind eye to the danger these kids could be in) just doesn’t cut it for me, again, since Tressel would already know that a) these kids are already involved in a federal investigation into a drug ring, and b) the investigation isn’t that leak-proof since someone just leaked about it to him.
by The JuggerNitt on Dec 22, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Those are fair points.
I think someday we’ll finally get Tressel’s side of the story in it’s entirety. He’s been rather silent about everything.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 22, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
I just have a hard time believing Tressel was the only person to know things in this scenario
I may have completely mis-read him, but he seems like a decent guy. I have a hard time thinking that good Ole Gene Smith didn’t at least know some of the things going on.
I think Tressel just took the fall for the entire University. Kind of like Paterno ended up being the fall guy for PSU. It would be an interesting day when both Tressel and Paterno would have their days to tell their story.
You're probably right. But we can't prove Smith knew.
I honestly think Tressel made more efforts to be in compliance than Smith. Before Smith was AD, Tressel self-reported many more secondary violations, as well as took pre-emptive action against violators before the NCAA ever got involved. In fact, before Tat-gate, pre-emptive action was Tressel’s mantra. He suspended Clarrett – a Heisman candidate and best player on a team that was preseason #2 – before the NCAA even got involved, despite Clarrett’s initial actions being criminal in nature (filing a false police report) as opposed to an NCAA violation. He suspended Troy Smith for a bowl game and the first game of the following season (despite leaving only one QB on the depth chart for that bowl game – which is why Ted Ginn had to play QB when Zwick got hurt) before the NCAA got involved (it would later turn out that the $500 Smith accepted wasn’t for him, but was intended for Clarett – who was no longer at OSU. Smith was merely the middle man). He dismissed Antonio Henton and #1 recruit Eugene Clifford from the team for misdemeanors that weren’t NCAA violations. But I think Smith started pressuring Tressel to take a more hands off approach and take more of a “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. This is consistent with one of the lines in the transcript in front of the COI. Tressel stated he used to keep a list of boosters and people to stay away from (and Bobby DiGeronimo was on that list), but Smith and the new compliance regime made him get rid of it because they were afraid of keeping such a paper trail or record. So it wouldn’t surprise me if Smith knew as well, but threw Tressel under the bus, because if Smith did know and did nothing, then you’re looking at an AD covering something up and one of the most extreme cases of LOIC ever.
It will be interesting for Tressel to tell his side someday. I’m anxiously awaiting what both he and Paterno have to say. I’m much more inclined to trust Tressel and Paterno than I am Gene Smith or Mike McQueary (whose story has ahd minor details changed time and time again and was probably unfairly drmatized in the GJ report).
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 23, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
I've said this to a few of my family members and friends (all who are Buckeye fans...I live in Ohio and am the outsider of the family)
I think if Tressel were to give his honest opinion, I think he hated the fact that they won the Pryor “sweepstakes.” I think he knew what a problem Pryor was going to be, but also knew how much pressure boosters and everyone involved with OSU put on him to get Pryor. And then once Pryor took over for a senior QB, there was no turning back for everyone. They made their bed and had to lie in it. I’m not saying that Tressel was perfect before Pryor or that he couldn’t have done more to stop Pryor, but I do think Tressel would have loved to miss out on Pryor and to have avoided the drama involved.
And I just think it was too convenient that Tressel took all the blame and Gene Smith played the “rogue coach” card to the NCAA. I think Gene Smith used his relationship with the NCAA to try and best figure how OSU could avoid a big hit from the NCAA infractions committee. I think he believed that if Tressel took the fall, then OSU would come out ok on the other end. And I think that was shown by his and Urban Meyer’s comments after the additional penalties came out. I have no fact behind this statement, but I’m guessing Gene Smith almost guaranteed Urban Meyer that there would be no additional sanctions coming from the NCAA when Meyer took the job. I think you’re right about Smith with his, don’t ask don’t tell thought……some of the things going on seemed pretty obvious and I think it was more of Smith not wanting to know….as opposed to him just not knowing. If that makes sense.
I doubt that PSU offered Pryor anything
We were never really in it for Pryor until very late when Joe made a visit and his dad really liked Joe. I heard a fairly reliable third-hand rumor that PSU’s staff never really held out much hope of getting him. He wanted to be in a big city.
Michigan finished second in the Pryor race. I wouldn’t put it past RRod or some rogue booster to offer him something. Michigan has a history of that – recall the Fab Five.
It also could have been some totally random school that was never really in it for Pryor and he didn’t want to name them just because he didn’t want to get all into it in the press.
Since we didn’t get him, I was glad he went to OSU instead of Michigan. I felt like OSU was already so good that he wouldn’t really tip the scales too much there whereas he could have made a huge impact at Michigan.
Where's Derry?
“He wanted to be in a big city.”
Columbus is quite the sprawling metropolis, blah.
Run.
by Bob Sacamano on Dec 21, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Compared to other B1G cities
Columbus is happening. Sure, Northwestern is right outside Chicago, but it’s not like Pryor was ever going there.
Columbus has a metro population of around 3 million. Nightlife for 20-something crowd is fantastic, especially down at Park Street, the Arena District, and Short North. Lots of hotties. I just moved to Cincy from Columbus last year, and while they’re comparable in size, Columbus was much more fun on the weekends.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
You seem OK.
Columbus is terrible.
A pandemic of cowardice sweeps the nation.
by WorldBFat on Dec 21, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You had me until "Lots of hotties"
You’ve heard of a “Cincinatti 8”, right? She’s also called an L.A. 2. Cincy/Pittsburgh/Columbus aren’t that different.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Dec 21, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
I'll take a 25 yeard old yuppie
over an LA drama queen any day of the week. There’s just something hot about and ambitious, intelligent, and professional woman that tells you “I don’t want a boyfriend right now because I really want to focus on my career” but will still hook up with you. Oddly enough, the best “fling” I ever had while still in Cbus was with a Penn State grad working at Cardinal Health. ;-)
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 21, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
Columbus is bigger than State College
A lot bigger. They even have an NHL team!! (sort of)
He said State College was too “country.” I was also told by somebody down with the young people’s lingo that this may have meant “too white.” I’m not judging him harshly if that’s what he thought.
The Blues actually play in the Federal League.
They lost 4-0 to Charlestown last night.
"Woop woop." - Waylon Jennings
by ReadingRambler on Dec 21, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
What was the quote from one of PSU's former players?
“And then in October it started snowing, and I thought to myself ‘Just when I thought State College couldn’t get any whiter…’”
"This is being a Penn State fan. We’ll prove it, or we won’t. It’s not about proving it to them, it’s about proving to ourselves."
Reading though this thread a day later, I have a thought.
I like TheHumbleBuckeye, and I want to keep him around.
I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about Joe Freaking Paterno here.
-Jitterbug
by leeharvey418 on Dec 22, 2011 6:46 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Agreed.
I just skimmed through this. I saw 200+ comments, and having read this from Kevin before he published, I knew it could have gotten out of hand. But everyone has handled themselves well, and I commend you all. As we always say, civil discourse will never be turned away.
___
Black Shoe Diaries
SBN - Pittsburgh
Success With Honor
by Jeff Junstrom on Dec 22, 2011 8:07 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks leeharvey.
We all have our biases, but I try to remain as objective as possible. I enjoy the folks here at BSD. Some of the most civil and rational fans I have seen. Sure, there’s a couple who will never be able to remain objective. But I’d say on the whole, this is a pretty solid collection of fans.
by TheHumbleBuckeye on Dec 22, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
NCAA=National Collegiate Athletic Assocation
Emphasis on Athletic. The only thing that makes this related to athletics is that it involved some people who were employed by the athletic department. But if that is the standard we are going to use then the American Astronomical Society would have reason to investigate and sanction me if I did something wrong simply because I am an astronomer. That isn’t just stupid, it’s dangerous. This is a legal issue and it is being investigated by law enforcement, as it should be. The NCAA needs to back off.
That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.
by Nittany_Ryan on Dec 22, 2011 5:03 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
..
jtothetweet
Make sure this dead horse doesn't move while I go get my beatin' stick.
by jtothep on Dec 23, 2011 7:24 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
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