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Recruiting Analysis: Do Stars Matter? Yes and No


I know we beat this topic to death last week complete with a big twitter fight and everything, but I've been so busy putting together We Are Penn State 2011 I didn't really get a chance to put my thoughts together on the issue. Today I read some new thoughts on the topic, and I got a few hours to kill, it's the offseason, and I'm sick of working on WAPS 2011, so lucky you.

I was reading Linebacker U this morning and I see our friend Junny has a fine recruiting update post where he gives us a lot of good information and another slightly out-of-place image of some random celebrity with nice... boobs...........Sorry. I got distracted there. Back to the topic at hand.

What caught my eye in the post is that once again he's beating the drum that kind of makes me squirm in my seat.

Stars Matter

Stars Matter

Stars Matter

Long story short, stars do matter, but so does player development. Everyone from 11 Warriors to mGoBlog to EDSBS and everyone in between (including numerous message boards) has covered this article, and rightfully so.

Star-divide

The article that Junny is referring to is over on Black Heart Gold Pants where an astute reader points out the correllation between recruiting stars and where a kid goes in the NFL draft. There is a very nice chart there that breaks down the average draft position based on the number of stars a kid had coming out of high school. Just looking at the chart, it looks pretty obvious that five-star kids go higher in the draft than four-star kids who go higher than three-star kids and so on.

But then they add this at the end. (Emphasis added)

Ok, stars matter, but they certainly don't tell the whole story. Even among those bluest of the blue-chippers, the 5-star recruits, the large majority will never be drafted! Motivation, injury and life all play a big role, but the differences between programs must matter. Player development - its something Iowa fans have heard about as Kirk Ferentz is known as one of the best. But is it true? Can we see it in the numbers?

The writer then goes on to break down which schools are better at developing talent than others. It's fascinating stuff, but it's not what I want to discuss here. So I'll let you go read that on your own if you want to. I want to address this thought that "stars matter".

I'm an engineer that works in a technical field. As such, I'm always analyzing data, and part of that analysis is to question the data. Where did it come from? What does it tell me? Can I use it? Can I trust it?

To me, stars are data. I look at them. I use them to form opinions and theories. In some context I trust them to back up an opinion. In other context I don't.

If I'm analyzing an entire recruiting class, stars matter. A class full of four-star athletes is going to outperform a class full of three-star athletes 99.9% of the time. But if I'm looking at just two kids, and one has five stars and the other has three stars and you tell me the five star kid is going to be a better player and be a higher NFL draft pick, I'm not going to take that as a foregone conclusion.

I have a lot of problems with the star ranking system. Stars aren't something you can measure on a kid. It's not like his height, his weight, his 40 time, how much he can bench or squat. Stars are an arbitrary ranking bestowed on a kid by a recruiting service. These people watch a kid perform in a camp, they watch a few minutes of film, and then they hang some stars on him.

As an engineer acutely trained to analyze data, I have a lot of problems with putting a lot of faith in these stars. First of all, the good people at Rivals and Scout can't possibly see every kid in America. As such, kids from big schools in metropolitan areas get more attention than the kids from smaller rural schools. Kids that go to their camps and combines naturally get more attention than the kids that don't. There are politics involved. I see a lot of instances where they hang three stars on a kid, but then he gets offers from Notre Dame and USC and then he mysteriously gets a fourth star.

Call me crazy if you want. But listen to reader Carolinaeasy, a high school football coach in South Carolina who has the unique perspective of having access to the biz. This is how he describes the sausage being made. (emphasis mine)

The star rankings in the NCAA recruiting process are extremely corrupt. The people applying those ratings have had a vested interest in selling their product to the masses. In order to make their particular product stand out more they have to get access to the "biggest" stars around, sometimes they will jack a kid’s star ranking up because it will sell more subscriptions. In short those in charge of applying rankings have extrinsic motivation that can skew their end product.

In other cases some of those applying the star rankings can be influenced by the coaches recruiting these players. A coach can get on the phone make a few phone calls and get a kids star ranking improved by as much as two to three stars. Not by anything they did on the field, but by a phone call by a recruiter who wants to have a "higher" profile due to his efforts.

Star rankings are corrupt and as such I don’t take them into account. If the player isn’t one of the top 10 recruits in the country I believe it is a crap shoot as to how things turn out.

This, and other comments I've read through the years, is why I don't get all worked up over the star system. I don't want to suggest the good people that run Rivals and Scout and 24/7 are doing anything shady to sell subscriptions. But they know that their star rankings are arbitrary. In the words of The Big Lebowski, "That's just, like, your opinion, man." Stars are a way of building buzz around certain kids and getting fans worked up. When fans get anxious, they want to know more information, and when they want more information, they're willing to pay for it. That's just their business model. You can choose to take part in it if you want to. Some people don't.

I actually do buy the subscriptions. Like I said, I put a little stock in the star system, but I don't sell out on it. Stars are a useful piece of information, and as an engineer I never refuse information unless I can prove it is invalid. The people at Rivals and Scout, though they may manipulate the stars for a particular kid, they still have a vested interest in getting it right. If they misevaluate too many kids people will see their information isn't credible, and if their information isn't credible, people stop paying for their service. This is bad for the business model. So it pays them to be as accurate as possible. As carolinaeasy said, I think they get the top 10 or 25 kids pretty accurate. But in my opinion the difference between a two-star kid and a three-star kid cannot be measured. A kid with one-star or no-star cannot be simply dismissed as a wasted scholarship before he ever sets foot on campus. We can't forget that the coaches have a vested interest in getting it right as well. They only have 85 scholarships to play with, so they can't afford to miss on too many kids.

So in conclusion, stars are a useful tool in ranking the overall value in a class, but I don't look at stars as a map for how an individual student's career will unfold.

Comment 86 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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This would all be easier if we just only recruit players with parents who played for PSU (Yes, women’s volleyball and men’s skeet shooting counts).

And, really, we wouldn’t be that bad off if we did that, would we?

Just another drifter who broke the law.

by ReadingRambler on May 6, 2011 10:11 AM EDT reply actions  

The goal

should be to at some point only field a team with Suheys, Pittmans, Collins, and Wizs

by state08 on May 6, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds like we need to take one of those big barns way out by the IM fields

and turn it into a state-of-the-art breeding facility and build us an army worthy of Mordor JoePa

by dawsonPSU10 on May 9, 2011 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Yes, sorry about that, I just replied

I've got the brains. You've got the looks. Let's make lots of money.

by ckmneon on May 6, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ck

I’m getting into another fight over Collins > Frazier at BGHP. Just thought you might be interested.

Just another drifter who broke the law.

by ReadingRambler on May 6, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

And the problem is

That Joe doesn’t recruit anymore. When he did, he was maybe the best there was.

by speedomike on May 6, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I always pictured him as more of a cajoler

than an intimidator on the recruiting trail. And I don’t use “cajole” in a bad way at all.

by psuwxman on May 6, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

nice call...cajoler

let’s just say as a 17 or 18 year old, sitting down for a meal with (arguably) the most storied football coach of all time and trying to tell him you’d like to wait and look at all your options and visit some more campuses, then having him guffaw, and slyly say all italian like…“geez, we were really hoping to have you here”….that’s intimidating

by hbeach08 on May 7, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know why but I have a very mafia like picture when you tell that story. As Joe says ah geez we’d like to have you does he direct your gaze outside to two rough looking italian guys in suits.

by psuwresfan on May 7, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think your wording needs some editing.

Joe doesn’t visit recruits anymore, he still recruits. I think that’s an important distinction. Moreover, either way, that’s the problem, it’s just one of several.

Just another drifter who broke the law.

by ReadingRambler on May 6, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

that's not THE problem

Just another drifter who broke the law.

by ReadingRambler on May 6, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can buy that

You’re right, he does recruit in some way. And you’re righ in that it’s not the only problem. Here’s how I’ll put it- in my opinion, the biggest problem with recruiting right now is that Joe doesn;’t visit recruits.

by speedomike on May 7, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe

I’m expecting the real fun on twitter. We’ll see.

by BSD on May 6, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mike, I'm sorry, but I have to agree with every other PSU blog:

You are a stupid crazy person.

Just another drifter who broke the law.

by ReadingRambler on May 6, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hey now.

:(

@jschnauzer
Bloggin' at http://joepasdoghouse.com

by Cairo on May 9, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey question

did you have Dan Vecellio from OS write an article for WAPS?

by psuwxman on May 6, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm of the opinion that stars matter

except for when they don’t. I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had where I have to defend a ‘poor’ recruiting class to someone who gets all of their information from what ESPN tells them. I’ll also admit, that in those same arguments about PSU recruiting, I’ve dismissed the recruiting rankings for say, last year only to let my debate opponent know how great of a class we had two years ago, according to Rivals and/or Scouts.

I think the point made here is quite valid. Stars are data that can be used like any other data. They can be abused or poorly analyzed, or they can add to our overall understanding when used correctly. In short, stars can add to an argument, but should never be the argument.

"Penn State is the standard for success with honor. Period. I can’t even believe we’re even discussing that" - ReadingRambler

by psuphysicist on May 6, 2011 11:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Stars are like NFL draft grades

Might mean something, might not, but talk to me in 3 years and I’ll claim I knew all along

"He's a beast. But so am I. So let the beasting begin."

by PSUtopia on May 6, 2011 11:28 AM EDT reply actions  

If stars meant anything

Eric Shrive would be our starting RT, and Boldin wouldn’t be considering a transfer.

I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!

by Tiller56 on May 6, 2011 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

IMO you have to look at how much stars matter to each individual coaching staff.

It’s not as if, when PSU takes a two or a three star guy they’re taking them at random from the entire population of two or three star guys. PSU is doing its own evaluation to determine if they want to offer or not. LJ is looking for certain characteristics for each technique on his DL, and for how well he thinks he can coach the individual up.

If you want to use stars, you’d have to do a breakdown of the COLLEGE success rates of each star level. You’d have to start with a breakdown of the classes similar to what the guy did earlier in the offseasn (I appologize for not remembering the poster’s screenname – he did excellent work and deserves recognition). IMO it really doesn’t matter that Clark wasn’t drafted – he was a great if not elite college QB in terms of running PSU’s offense. Otherwise you’d be saying Michael Robinson was a better college running back than Evan Royster.

by PSUEnrg02 on May 6, 2011 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

not to take anything from Royster

but I bet if MRob was an exclusive RB his entire tenure at PSU he may well have earned that distinction.

by The JuggerNitt on May 6, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clark was not elite,

Because he didn’t play for VA Tech!

Sorry, just had to do it! You’re right, Clark was and is awesome!!

This is BSD, the crazy stirs itself.

by Paige2PSU on May 6, 2011 10:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'll always think MRob was better.

The man flat out killed my dreams in 2005… AND earned my undying respect.

Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on May 6, 2011 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

There was also that Minny

Safety that MRob about killed. I didn’t think that dude was getting up.

It's even possible that Jim Tressel drinks out of the toilet

by jman07 on May 11, 2011 6:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

"These people watch a kid perform in a camp, they watch a few minutes of film, and then they hang some stars on him."

Change that to “they look at his offer list, they watch a few minutes of film, and then they hang some stars on him.”

Recruiting services seem to rely heavily on the judgments of college coaches. Kids with offers from the hot SEC schools of the day will automatically get a star bump. If DC17 had had an offer from OSU, he probably would have had 4 stars.

by newenglandnittanylion on May 6, 2011 11:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Someone rec this for me please!!

This is BSD, the crazy stirs itself.

by Paige2PSU on May 6, 2011 10:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Stars are like grades...

The smartest person in the class might not have the best grade, but I’d probably take the kid with a 4.0 over the kid with a 2.3 if I was hiring to fill a position.

by mancobob on May 6, 2011 12:09 PM EDT reply actions  

I would agree

However, the place the new guys starts would have to compete with guys that had 3.5s and higher. He would no longer be the top dog unless he earned it all over again. Unlike grades stars are more subjective. I would give them a variance of +/- 1/2 star.

by ageing lion on May 6, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Never had...

…a grade where you thought it might be higher or lower if your relationship with the teacher was different? Or if the test questions had been asked slightly different? Grades are subjective, but in the end they typically are a good indicator.

by mancobob on May 6, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Point being...

Grades aren’t perfect, star rankings aren’t perfect, but taken in a vacuum you’d always take the higher grade/star.

Now, coaches should, and do, do their homework and figure out the other variables, the same way a good job recruiter will look at more than the GPA at the top of the resume.

But if a recruiter’s only bringing in 2-star athletes or C students they probably aren’t doing their job very well.

Stars mean something, grades mean something, but in the end they’re only part of the package.

by mancobob on May 6, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

As my Dad always says, upon graduating from law school, the A students become professors, the B students become judges, and the C students become lawyers and get wealthy.

by txhawkeye on May 6, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or to dumb it down a bit...

“A students tell people how the world should be run; C students actually run the world.”

by J Breezy on May 7, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

which hints at another aspect

natural ability vs work ethic. In a class, the smartest kid may also be the laziest, but still outperform his peers more often than not and get “rated” higher. Of course he still misses a bunch of assignments.

On a football field, the most talented kid may be the laziest. Sure, he dominates on tape against weaker competition, but misses assignments against opponents who know what they are doing.

And then they move onto the higher level where they may gain motivation to develop a good work ethic, or they remain lazy and washout. Then they get to be re-evaluated improperly for the NFL draft.

by The JuggerNitt on May 6, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would certainly give the 4.0 kids resume preference

but I would also look at the intangibles. Give me a kid with a 2.3 that held an elected position in a club or two coupled with a job and some concurrent experience any day over the kid with the 4.0. Ideally, I’d like to interview everyone and really get a feel for who is not only smarter, but will bring more to the table in other aspects. But thats certainly the point here isnt it?

If all I care about is zomg 5 stars, then many other weakness are overlooked because a full evaluation wasn’t done. If I don’t use some baseline to recruit kids outside of my network, then there is no possible way to properly evaluate all of the talent out there. The stars are HR if you will- a decent screening process to get the best candidates to the actual interview with the person that knows exactly what they are looking for.

"Penn State is the standard for success with honor. Period. I can’t even believe we’re even discussing that" - ReadingRambler

by psuphysicist on May 6, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

*

a 4.0 and no extracurriculars/classes outside of what is required

"Penn State is the standard for success with honor. Period. I can’t even believe we’re even discussing that" - ReadingRambler

by psuphysicist on May 6, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Book

This whole situation is summed up well in the book "For the Glory: College Football Dreams and Realities Inside Paterno’s Program "

by BW042 on May 6, 2011 1:19 PM EDT reply actions  

unrelated but not really

but i noticed skyer morninwheg was a target in that LBU article. Didnt he commit to Stanford?

If not itd be awesome to have him, so we can listen to brent musberger mention who his father is 800 times a telecast. It’d be “Evan Royster played lacrosse 2.0”

by swiggy04 on May 6, 2011 3:22 PM EDT reply actions  

I still don't get why people argue about this

I mean honestly who cares. Last time I checked the national championship was won the field not based on what that dork Tom Lemming and his goons think. They day that changes is the day I start watching cricket instead of football.

This whole recruiting argument is just so ridiculous, great go out and grab 5 5 star qbs so you have the number one recruiting class that’s great let me know how that works out on the field. Teams have to address their needs if they fail to get a qb or a rb and they really need on then it’s a bad recruiting class. If they fill voids great they did a good job. It’s that simple. It’s like if your interviewing someone for an engineering job and they come to the interview with a 4.0 in Marketing. Great they’re a 5 star potential employee, but no company is gonna hire them because they don’t fit the need. And if they do well then great the building you had them design just collapsed because they had a garbage degree in a fake major but boy do they look good on paper.

I’m just so tired of this whole industry that was basically created by a bunch of fat guys who have never played the sport sitting at their computers. They spout nonsense that no one bother to check 4 or even 2 years later. Relating recruiting stars to the draft is even more comical since your talking about a complete crap shoot that was made an event by espn and the ultimate hack Mel Kiper.

Now if you’ll excuse me I have to go yell at some kids to get off my lawn.

by psuwresfan on May 6, 2011 3:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Wasnt Urschel a nobody coming out of high school

Now he’s competing for a starting spot on the o-line. Stars matter

by PSUBarge on May 6, 2011 3:41 PM EDT reply actions  

But for every Jon Urschel and Daryll Clark you cite (a two- or less star recruit) I can name 50 that didn't pan out.

Likewise, for every five-star guy I name, you can probably think of many that turned out to be flops. But OVERALL, five-stars are drafted at a higher clip than other groups, and as you’d imagine, it slides proportionally down.

@EpicTripod
SBN - Pittsburgh
Success With Honor

by Jeff Junstrom on May 6, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jim Leonhard, Graham Zug and Brooks Bollinger would also fit in that first group

but the vast majority of two-star or walk-on recruits don’t pan out; you’re completely right there.

Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on May 6, 2011 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good points, Mike.

Like I said in the LBU article, the initial BHGP post was spot on on so many points, not even mentioning the immense amounts of data required to write that post.

At the risk or linking the enemy, an mGo reader came up with some Midwest specific data today, and it outlines further some of my initial points:
- Stars matter, but they aren’t the only thing that matters. To that point I’ve never disagreed with anyone. Putting 22 five-star players on the field without proper development or coaching would be like watching an And One mix tape video.
- However, and in the converse, putting 22 two-star (or NR) players on the field, even with John Heisman and Joe Paterno coaching, doesn’t automatically mean success.
- Success is found in the middle. What percentage is coaching and what percentage is recruiting the “star” players (pun intended) is where the debate lays.

With that being said, I would never say that a five-star player is per se more likely to be successful. They still need coaching. But in the abstract, five-star players ARE more likely to be successful, as evidenced by the data.

As I wrote for SBN a week or so ago, if the endgame is the NFL (via the draft), and the recipe for the nfl is talent + coaching + intelligence, then the draft data outlined in the BHGP post and now the mGo post are telling. Sure, the vast majority of five-star players aren’t drafted. But that’s because the VERY vast majority of ALL players aren’t drafted. But five-stars are drafted at a higher frequency; what does that mean? I don’t know, I’m not a statistician, but it would seem to indicate that a five-star rating out of HS gives you an immediate better chance to be drafted. However, this is where player development comes into play. So stars matter, but so does coaching/development.

@EpicTripod
SBN - Pittsburgh
Success With Honor

by Jeff Junstrom on May 6, 2011 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Good points

IF the endgame is the draft, then all of this is very relevant. I know that the reason being drafted is used to determine the merit of the star system is because the data is the most easily accessible data out there. If you are asking the question: Do stars predict the possibility of being drafted by the NFL? then the answer seems to be yes.

If you are asking if stars matter, then the answer isn’t as clear. Basing college success off of draft order is worthwhile to a degree, but I haven’t seen a specific analytic argument supported by data that explicitly proves this hypothesis. Basically, are the Darryl Clarks of the world simply anecdotal evidence or is there a relevant history of highly successful college players that don’t find success in the NFL? If the latter is the case, some other methodology needs to be used to relate the star system to a successful college career (after all, isn’t that what the system was designed for?)

"Penn State is the standard for success with honor. Period. I can’t even believe we’re even discussing that" - ReadingRambler

by psuphysicist on May 6, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I definitely see your point.

My problem with that approach (and it’s less a problem and more a frustration) is that the data required for THAT analysis would be monumental. You’d have to analyze star rankings for thousands of college football athletes, track their collegiate success, and also track harder-to-analyze ideas like player development and coaching impact.

If more stars beget better draft chances, I don’t think it’s a far leap to say that more stars begets higher collegiate success. I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I bet if you plotted the highest ranked recruiting classes across a decade, the leaders would be somewhat similar to a post of the decade’s most successful teams. There would be outliers both ways (Charlie Weis couldn’t coach his way out of a paper bag even given great talent, and Chris Petersen seems to be doing OK with minimal talent). But that’s a debate for the future, as we don’t have nearly enough data, or statisticians who have compiled the data. If we have, someone please let me know.

@EpicTripod
SBN - Pittsburgh
Success With Honor

by Jeff Junstrom on May 6, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand the problem with the approach

And if someone would pay me a full time salary for a few years, I would gladly take on this challenge. I’m not sure that it would be necessary, and we would likely get the answer that we presume at this point, but as a scientist its my job to point out deficiencies in analysis. Ideally, I would have an idea of how to fix the data/proceed but I will resign myself to nitpicking with no other positive inputs for the time being.

I think this would make an excellent thesis opportunity for an aspiring graduate statistician. So any of you out there, have at it.

"Penn State is the standard for success with honor. Period. I can’t even believe we’re even discussing that" - ReadingRambler

by psuphysicist on May 6, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just thought of this, but

are the guys with the five stars getting into the NFL at a higher rate because of their “natural 5-star ability” or because the coaches have focused on coaching them more? It’s not something that I think could ever be studied or quantified, but I’m willing to bet there’s a fair amount of coaches out there that, when faced with spending one-on-one time with players, spend more time on those deemed “more stars”. Not just in the coaching aspect, but in the off-the-field life aspects too.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on May 6, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

A few years ago Miami was recruiting exclusively by Rivals’ star rating system. Result? Program took a nose dive.

by Uhaul on May 6, 2011 5:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Well

that and the fact that their QB recruits weren’t as great as they were anticipated to be, and they didn’t even bother playing defense at times…

Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on May 6, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

...
I see our friend Junny has a fine recruiting update post where he gives us a lot of good information and another slightly out-of-place image of some random celebrity with nice… boobs.

I'm shocked. Simply shocked, that Junny would do such a thing.

Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on May 6, 2011 6:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Recruiting is a dry subject to some. I'm trying to increase the audience and usher new fans into the recruiting scene.

That, and it gives me a reason to Google Image Search “Emma Stone” and “Amy Poehler” at work. Next week’s “babe” has already been decided, my celebrity crush number one. You will not be disappointed.

@EpicTripod
SBN - Pittsburgh
Success With Honor

by Jeff Junstrom on May 6, 2011 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, it works, doesn't it?!

Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on May 6, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

And for the thousandth time, I will now accuse of you of writing for Bleacher Report.

Just another drifter who broke the law.

by ReadingRambler on May 6, 2011 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I hope this wasn't found when searching Stone or Poehler.

If it was, then one of them let herself go.

P.S. Will Arnett is 10x the hilarity and talent of Amy. COME ON!

by MainLion on May 7, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

The best teams in the nation all have big time recruits

Look at the guys we’re looking forward too next year, Redd (5*), Mauti (4*), Still (4*), Fortt (4*)

really only Lynn doesn’t fit that mold. There are always Sam Bradfords and Poz’s and whatnot, and there are also Aaron Corps and Sam Youngs, but those generally fall into the outliers.

Nobody will deny having great coaching is the most important though.

by ICEICETHATGUY13 on May 7, 2011 9:17 AM EDT reply actions  

Lynn

Pretty sure he was a Scout 4* recruit, and chose PSU over USC in the end?

"We heard all that talk all week about the SEC and their speed, but we knew personally that they weren't nearly as tough as us."

-Tony Hunt

by Cpiritual27 on May 7, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good point

I was thinking of Lynns Rivals rating

by ICEICETHATGUY13 on May 8, 2011 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

If I was asked who were the 5 best Big Ten players since the dark years

I’d say (in no order):
Poz (3* Fullback)
A.J. Hawk (2* LB, only D1 offers came from OSU and PSU)
Troy Smith (2* QB)
DC17 (2* QB)
Joe Thomas (4* OT)

That’s an average of less than 3 stars per dude on a list that includes 3 well above average NFL players and two Big Ten Champion, Silver Football winning QBs. No 5 stars.

I agree 100% that those guys are generally outliers. But outliers aren’t all that rare.

I've got the brains. You've got the looks. Let's make lots of money.

by ckmneon on May 8, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aren't rare in number, no.

But there are, what, well over 100 3 star or less rated per year. There have probably been less than 40 5 star players in the b1g in that time. Yet I’d be willing to bet I could get a top 5 that is just as good with just 5 star players.

Without looking, what about compiling a top 5 from

Chad Henne
Brandon Graham
Ted Ginn Jr
Beanie Wells
Dan Connor
Derrick Williams
Martez Wilson
Rejus Benn
Mario Manningham

The point is just that as a percentage of success, you would prefer a class of 4 and 5 star players to 2 and 3. But in evaluating a single player, it’s useless.

'We've got too many people analyzing everything and sometimes they don't know what they're talking about.' -Joseph Vincent Paterno

by PSUinBOSSton on May 8, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think there are at least 500+ 3 star guys

So yeah, it is easier for 3 stars to have more successful guys because of numbers.

by ICEICETHATGUY13 on May 8, 2011 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's a lot to argue with in that list.

Too much to really get deeply into it, but no Michael Robinson is a glaring issue. And nobody from Michigan in essentially the last 10 years? Or from 7 other teams?? I dunno about that….

And I do not believe that Daryl Clark, as nice a player as he was, is one of the top 5 players in the Big 10 the last 10 years.

by J Breezy on May 9, 2011 5:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

The best way to resolve this is

to do an analyzes of recruiting versus year end standings in the conference. If we could get the recruiting numbers for the Big Ten for the past 10 years and see how that compares with the team standing each year. That should give good hard evidence that stars matter or not since the players recruited would be playing against each other in conference for 4/5 years. One can and will make the argument that coaching matters and that would show up it a team (like Northwestern) ending up higher then their recruiting placement.

by ageing lion on May 7, 2011 1:09 PM EDT reply actions  

If you don't like the Star system/Rivals_Scout Analysis do your own..

Baseball Fan blogs have been miles ahead of football in this respect for years. Better teams with better talent evaluators will get better players. You don’t like a kids rating.. download some videos, get in your car and go to a game. Take a look at the level of competition, look at the bloodlines and do some scouting. Establish a baseline, establish your own likes/dislikes..

Some guys don’t like short DB’s, some guys like speed more than anything, some guys don’t like lineman that do virtually no pass blocking in HS. Some evaluators won’t even give a guy the time of day if he’s playing in a low-A/AA equivalent classification or plays in an area with weak overall talent(NE corridor). Some guys drop points for character issues/some don’t. The scout/rivals system may not be scientific but the wisdom of crowds applies.. just like Tango Tigers baseball fan scouting system was one of the first reliable measures of defense. Get enough independent input, and you should get a fairly accurate consensus. If you don’t like it, self evaluate and do better..

But if you aren’t willing to actually take a look at some information and do your own analysis.. don’t trash the analysis of others.

by dyehardfan on May 8, 2011 1:40 PM EDT reply actions  

You've missed the point.

No one is “trashing” analysis here, just pointing out the folly of some fans treating a Rivals star ranking like the Gospel of Mark.

Adam
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, BT Powerhouse, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by Adam Bittner on May 8, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t get how pointing out gaping flaws in the work of Rivals or Scout means you should make your own recruiting analysis. How does that make sense?

Just another drifter who broke the law.

by ReadingRambler on May 8, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

it doesn't

also, there are a lot more data points to use in evaluating baseball players, added to that the fact that baseball, while a “team” sport is somewhat closer to how wrestling is a “team” sport than how football is. You can be on a crappy baseball team and still put up great individual performances and great statistics, whereas if you are on a crappy football team, good luck doing anything well.

by The JuggerNitt on May 8, 2011 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Logic and reasoning epic fail

It's even possible that Jim Tressel drinks out of the toilet

by jman07 on May 11, 2011 6:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

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by Vkhklhkl Fhgh on May 11, 2011 10:50 AM EDT reply actions  

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