Here ya go Bittner
Enjoy.
11 months ago
STU Boy
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I assume I’m going to have this thrown in my face.
"We still disagree here over how we should have handled it," said Vince Doria, ESPN’s senior vice president and director of news. "If our goal was to get people to watch television, we succeeded."
Fine. I’ve got news for ya’ll, though. Our goal here at BSD is to get people to read the blog, too, and we’ve done a pretty good job of it without having the athletic department script the questions we ask it. Just because ESPN makes decisions (pun intended) like this doesn’t mean every or even most media companies do. If you believe they do, then you obviously don’t think much of me, Mike, or anyone else on this blog and i question why you’re even here in the first place.
Blogger formerly known as fugimaster24
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, BT Powerhouse, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
1. Was ESPN’s choice of execution of “The Decision” unethical?
2. Did it harm ESPN’s credibility?
3. Did it harm ESPN’s bottom line in the short term?
1 and 2 may not harm the bottom line in the short term, but they typically do in the long term. If a firm is producing an untrustworthy product, the market will respond accordingly. 3 certainly matters, but because 1 and 2 matter also, need not always (if ever) be the primary concern, but it matters.
My answer to all of the above is “no,” but I’m interested to hear what you think.
is there anyway i can redeem myself, i was not sure if i should say "we" at that moment
by Skins4ever on Feb 2, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As long as ESPN has television contracts...
…it doesn’t need ethics or credibility.The idea, though, that because ESPN acts with reckless disregard for its journalistic integrity, all media companies do because it’s “good business,” is so far out in left it isn’t even funny.
I shouldn’t be surprised at the level of distrust of the MSM here. It’s a blog after all. This whole discussion really undermines the work of some great journalists, though, and I find that shameful. Throw the “youthful idealist” line in my face again. Whatever. I’ve met real, live journalists far older than some of you talking down to me, and they believe a lot of the same things I believe. Hell, they’re the ones that taught it to me.
Blogger formerly known as fugimaster24
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, BT Powerhouse, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
ESPN, like the rest of the MSM
produces a product. A lack of ethics or integrity will either force them to shift their product into pure sensationalism or permanently damage their product.
Journalistic ethics exists because it protects the product. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing; I think it’s a great thing, but let’s not pretend it’s anything else. Journalists are not some sacred priesthood of brave truth tellers. They are people who play a large part in producing the news product in all its various forms. Heck, most of what we consider to be journalistic ethics comes from the creation of the AP, which was nothing more than a cost cutting measure for both left leaning and right leaning newspapers so that they could share a “facts reporting” staff and only pay their editorial staff by themselves.
is there anyway i can redeem myself, i was not sure if i should say "we" at that moment
by Skins4ever on Feb 2, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
by ckmneon on Jul 9, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ve met few journalists who ask “What will this do for the bottom line?” before they write their stories. Those are management decisions, and again, I think a statement like “Journalists are not some sacred priesthood of brave truth tellers” not only undermines but mocks the work of a lot of great writers.
Do I think all, or even most journalists are the cream of the crop? Absolutely not. But to suggest most don’t have doing the right thing in mind in their work is a pretty severe dis of a lot of good people.
Blogger formerly known as fugimaster24
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, BT Powerhouse, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
I hadn't commented on this, but I do have a two-part question:
To you, what is a journalist and how should society view them?
Why does that undermine or mock their work?
You ostensibly distinguish between an ethical journalist and one who cares about the bottom line. I do not. I say that what Americans consider to be journalistic ethics arose quite naturally in a very free market fashion.
A journalist’s product is fairly useless if he or she lacks credibility and ethics and such a thing is discovered by the public; the general public isn’t going to pay to read or sit through adverts to watch or listen to something that they can’t trust unless it has practical or entertainment value aside from the consumption of facts. If the public won’t sit through adverts or pay for subscriptions, the company fails and the journalist is out of work.
Journalistic ethics are a fantastic example of what Aquinas called Natural Law and what Hayek called emergent order: a set of rules that, codified or not, need not be, because without them the subset of society to which they pertain fails. It should be clear, however, that they arise not in contrast to the bottom line, but because of it.
If you choose to believe that journalists are some sacred priesthood of brave truth tellers, that’s fine, and I suppose it depends on your definition of some of the nouns and adjectives used in that expression. What I hope to make clear to you is that a journalists are no more a priesthood of truth tellers than an bakers are a priesthood of bread producers, brewers: beer producers, and butchers: steak producers, and as Adam Smith stated in the seminal economics text The Wealth of Nations, “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self interest.” I don’t expect quality journalism because that’s what journalists do, I expect quality journalism because its in the journalist’s self interest to produce such a product.
The sad thing for journalists is that they venerate hacks like this guy and this guy to this day, and until they stop doing so, the industry will always have far less credibility than most. No butcher, brewer, or baker could have failed so miserably at their jobs and expected to survive in the industry, let alone be exalted the way they are.
is there anyway i can redeem myself, i was not sure if i should say "we" at that moment
by Skins4ever on Feb 2, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
by ckmneon on Jul 9, 2011 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I don’t expect quality journalism because that’s what journalists do, I expect quality journalism because its in the journalist’s self interest to produce such a product.
That’s fine, except ESPN has gone in the exact opposite direction of “quality journalism” with things like “The Decision” or “Difference Makers” and the appetite has been there for it from the public regardless. So how can you quote Adam Smith and say media outlets that choose not to act the way ESPN acts are acting in their own “best interests” when there’s a public out there that might accept the AP letting Joe Torre script his questions or the Post-Gazette making up crap to make the Steelers look better than they are?
Blogger formerly known as fugimaster24
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, BT Powerhouse, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jul 9, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll add to that...
…if it was in Jim Gray’s best interests to do “The Decision” why has he fallen off the face of the Earth in the last year? Why didn’t Michael Wilbon or Mark Stein, far more distinguished NBA writers, handle it instead?
Blogger formerly known as fugimaster24
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, BT Powerhouse, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jul 9, 2011 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
You seem to believe (please correct me if I'm wrong)
that I’m saying that free market, caring-about-the-bottom-line journalistic ethics always leads to ethical journalism. I’m certainly not. What I am saying is that the market provides adequate incentives promoting ethical journalism, and the exceptions you noted are great examples, not exceptions, of such things.
Jim Gray discovered, just as a brewer of bad beer or baker of bad bread would discover, is that if you deliver a complete lemon to the market (whether it is or not in your personal view or mine, the market seemed to think so, and you and I are just a small piece of it), the market will respond in kind. I have no idea whether or not Michael Wilbon or Mark Stein were offered the piece and said, “not with a ten foot pole,” or something to that effect, but if they are journalists with better foresight than Gray, it would certainly be consistent.
The issue of the AP / Torre or the PG / Steelers is a bit different and more nuanced:
When the AP allows Torre to script questions or the Post-Gazette engages in creative writing or spin to cast the Steelers in a more favorable, if less truthful, light, this damages their credibility. A hit on their credibility is a hit on their bottom line. Maybe.
I say maybe because of the following: Joe Torre and the people who make up the Pittsburgh Steelers organization are endowed with a right to free speech. They can talk or not talk to whomever they want. Market demand for coverage of these firms exists. So they engage in a sort of contract, however formal or informal: I’ll talk to you if I get to choose the questions. You can have some privileged access to the Steelers if you cast us in a positive light.
Some may call this a compromise of ethics. Maybe it is, in the sense that it makes the journalist’s product less genuine. If the journalist’s product is perceived to be less genuine, it has less market value.
What it certainly is are two firms (the journalist and either one of the sports firms) engaging in mutually beneficial market behavior. Torre and the Steelers gets press coverage they are willing to handle, and the journalist gets information to print or broadcast. The consumer gets a product they are willing to buy or sit through advertisements to consume. It may not be perfect, but it’s superior to the sports firms exercising their right to free speech and remaining silent: the journalist will be left with no marketable product and the consumer will have nothing.
A sub-optimal product is superior to no product at all. At least that’s what the public’s demand seems to think, and that demand will be met appropriately by the market.
You may say this is a failure of the market incentives to work or the market incentives working as they should or somewhere in between. You could probably justify any of the above. What I want to make clear is that non-market incentives (such as a non-market-oriented code of journalistic ethics) would not improve matters. No system of incentives works perfectly, including (especially?) non-market incentives. In spite of death penalty being a very legitimate consequence, rapes, murders, and treason still happen. In spite of laws against trading on insider information in the United States, there hardly less insider ownership or trading that goes on in the U.S. relative to countries that don’t have such laws. In spite of the fact that prescription medications are expensive to develop and market and the civil penalties for marketing a bad one are high, bad drugs still make it to market. In spite of a code, written or unwritten, of journalistic ethics, bad journalism still prints and broadcasts.
This doesn’t mean the market failed or that working for the bottom line is a bad thing. It just means that consumers must always maintain a healthy diligence and skepticism of all goods and services they consume. Journalism is no different, and it wouldn’t be any different if journalists didn’t concern themselves with a bottom line.
is there anyway i can redeem myself, i was not sure if i should say "we" at that moment
by Skins4ever on Feb 2, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
by ckmneon on Jul 10, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Rec'd for truth:
Journalistic ethics exists because it protects the product. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing; I think it’s a great thing, but let’s not pretend it’s anything else.
"Man, Oklahoma sucks." - Ki-Jana Carter
by ReadingRambler on Jul 11, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I realize I'm several days late
Been preparing to move and having to replace my car.
Question of clarification to both Rambler and Ckmneon: the quote that Rambler pulled out above—are you saying that journalism ethics ONLY exist as they relate to business—ie., the “product”?
Thanks!
Basically, yes.
"Man, Oklahoma sucks." - Ki-Jana Carter
by ReadingRambler on Jul 12, 2011 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting.
Do you believe any type of ethics exist for the sake of themselves—in other words, because it is “the right thing to do” or from a belief that it serves a higher cause? Or are all ethics based in some monetary self-interest?
by psu87intn on Jul 13, 2011 8:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes to the first, no to the last.
But, in my opinion, ethics in journalism exist almost solely to protect the product, which makes money.
"Man, Oklahoma sucks." - Ki-Jana Carter
by ReadingRambler on Jul 13, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Does your option apply to both individuals and organizations?
I would agree that the theory that ethics exist solely to protect the product is much more likely to apply to organizations—not always, but more likely, especially in today’s market/world.
I disagree that it exists almost solely to protect the product when applied to the people at the ground level doing the work—at legitimate news sources.
I will concede that the concept of journalistic ethics has been greatly weakened—in my opinion—by the advent of the internet and the ease for every Tom, Dick & Harry to create their own outpost of “journalism.” These people haven’t been schooled in the concept of public trust.
I thought this was going to be a Selena Gomez video
by letsgopsu on Jul 9, 2011 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
No, that's only something that fugimaster24 would enjoy
He had good taste and smart things to say. This Adam Bittner, on the other hand, has totally sold out and is looking to take over for David Jones someday.
is there anyway i can redeem myself, i was not sure if i should say "we" at that moment
by Skins4ever on Feb 2, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So I'm a sell out now?
Lovely.
Blogger formerly known as fugimaster24
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, BT Powerhouse, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
Instead of bunny pictures, I'll go with this. I like your input fugi, don't always like all your articles, but that is good. I shouldn't agree all the time. You should be tweaking us.

My grammer skills need improved.
This is in danger...
of becoming an Obermann meltdown. The only problem I have with all of this (other than the pediphilic Gomez thing) is from the first comment:
“Just because ESPN makes decisions (pun intended) like this doesn’t mean every or even most media companies do. If you believe they do, then you obviously don’t think much of me, Mike, or anyone else on this blog and i question why you’re even here in the first place.”
I was in a position to watch Fox News, CNN, and MSN when VP Cheney accidentally shot his hunting partner a few years ago. Fox News said Chaney inadvertently wounded his hunting buddy. CNN: Cheney shot his friend in the face. MSN: Cheney GUNNED DOWN an associate. So if there is an impression that media outlets have agendas… yeah. Does that mean that people believing that shouldn’t be reading BSD or that it is an insult to the authors? I don’t think so.
I just don't want to die without a few scars. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 6


























