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Returning Starters vs Win Percentage: Going Back 40 Years to Predict 2011

Penn State returns a ton of starters from last season. Okay, that sounds great. But does it really matter when trying to gauge the 2011 Nittany Lions?

To be curt: yes. It's not to say everything depends on the headcount of returning starters each year. But if you're looking for a very reliable jumping-off point on which to base a season prediction, the number of returning starters is the best place to start.

Star-divide

First, I must explain how I compiled this information. It's not too bad, but has to be done.

What counts as a returning starter...

Position Changes: (a) If a starter returns, but changes positions on the same side of the ball (example: LB to DE, TE to WR) he counts as a returning starter. (b) If a starter returns, but changes to the opposite side of the ball (example: LB to RB, WR to CB) he does NOT count as a returning starter.
Games Started: (a) If a player started 3 or more games from one year (ex. 1999), and returns for the next year (ex. 2000), meeting the criteria above, he counts as a returning starter. (b) If a player starts 2 or fewer games from one year to the next, he does not count as a returning starter.
Years Skipped: (a) If a player meets both criteria to be a returning starter, but skips a year between starting (ex. 1-yr position change, injury, etc.) count him as a returning starter for the current year under analysis. (b) If a player skips more than one year between qualifying as a starter, he does not count as a starter for the current year under analysis.

This is why you will see in the chart below numbers of returning starters that aren't likely (20-21) or physically possible (23-24) in any given season. It's because when you look at returning starters, it's not just looking at who started at that exact position the year before. Rather, it's to examine which players have had considerable recent experience starting in that position coming into the current season.

Charts

Year Off. Def. S.T. Tot. W% (10=100%) W L
1971 5 5 1 11 9.2 11 1
1972 3 4 1 8 8.3 10 2
1973 6 4 1 11 10 12 0
1974 4 5 2 11 8.3 10 2
1975 5 6 1 12 7.5 9 3
1976 6 4 0 10 5.8 7 5
1977 8 8 2 18 9.2 11 1
1978 6 4 2 12 9.2 11 1
1979 5 6 0 11 6.7 8 4
1980 6 9 2 19 8.3 10 2
1981 7 8 1 16 8.3 10 2
1982 6 5 1 12 9.2 11 1
1983 3 6 1 10 6.7 8 3-1T
1984 6 6 1 13 5.5 6 5
1985 6 9 1 18 9.1 11 1
1986 9 8 2 19 10 12 0
1987 3 4 0 7 6.7 8 4
1988 3 4 1 8 4.5 5 6
1989 10 8 2 20 6.7 8 3-1T
1990 7 8 1 16 7.5 9 3
1991 6 10 2 18 8.5 11 2
1992 7 7 1 15 5.8 7 5
1993 6 8 1 15 8.3 10 2
1994 7 4 0 11 10 12 0
1995 9 8 2 19 7.5 9 3
1996 3 7 2 12 8.5 11 2
1997 7 6 0 13 7.5 9 3
1998 8 8 2 18 7.5 9 3
1999 10 9 2 21 7.7 10 3
2000 8 3 0 11 4.2 5 7
2001 5 8 1 14 4.5 5 6
2002 9 6 2 17 6.9 9 4
2003 6 6 2 14 2.5 3 9
2004 8 8 2 18 3.6 4 7
2005 10 10 1 21 9.1 11 1
2006 6 5 2 13 6.9 9 4
2007 10 6 1 17 6.9 9 4
2008 11 10 2 23 8.5 11 2
2009 8 6 1 15 8.5 11 2
2010 9 7 1 17 5.4 7 6
2011 10 12 1 23 ? ? ?


A prettier version (click image to enlarge, or click here to download .pdf)

Psu_starters_vs_win_percentage_1971-2010_medium

Overall

The 3-4 year "Paterno Cycle" is very evident, with spikes in win percentage at regular intervals. They coincide with the numbers of returning starters, but not necessarily how you'd think. Some years (1989, 1996, 1999) there are a ton of returning starters, but the results weren't exactly on par with the kind of experience returning to the team. Then you have other seasons (1978, 1982, 1994, 2009) where there aren't as many returning starters as you'd assume there would be in relation to the win percentage. However, most of the time, you can accurately predict a ball-park rate of success for Penn State, based on how many starters are returning in any given season.

To explain why some years don't match up, look at what starters were lost the previous season (starting QB? most of the DL? shuffling the OL? Don't underestimate that last one), as well as looking at how young or old the teams were in relative terms. An example of that is 1991, which was a very, very experienced team having played together for 3 years. At the same rate, the team could be just plain untalented, like in 2003; 2004 was bad too, but only on offense; still, those teams were just plain lacking in raw talent, despite returning a bunch of starters each year.

Examples to (kinda) Prove the Point

Here are a couple examples of when returning starters directly correlated to the success or failure in the ensuing football season. With them are examples of when the numbers played tricks on people who didn't remember that nothing is carved in stone, and there are always variable that must be taken into consideration before chalking 100 percent of your prediction on returning starters.

On the money: 1977. Was the 1977 team actually better than the following 1978 team? It's possible, in that there were more returning starters.

Look deeper: 1978. The quality of those starters retained for 1978 allowed Penn State to lose 6 starters from '77 to '78 but not lose that much production on offense or defense.

On the money: 1981. Losing only 3 starters from the very good 1980 team, a vocal minority around the nation said this PSU team was the best in the country, despite losing 2 games.

Look deeper: 1982. PSU only returned 12 starters, but they were key components like Todd Blackledge, Curt Warner, Walker Lee Ashley and others.

On the money: 1985, 1986. Over two years, this team returned nearly intact for two straight seasons. If PSU didn't win the title in 1986, this would have been the most disappointing run to date in Paterno's tenure.

On the money: 1988. The title team was pretty much gone at this point, then the team was struck with a terrible rash of injuries. Combine that with so few starters returning the season before ('87) and there wasn't much in the cupboard for '88.

Look deeper: 1994: Like '82, all the right people returned, especially on an offense that would cover up the defensive and specialists issues on this team. Only 4 defensive starters (0 specialists) returned from '93.

Check out the offensive starters chart (click to enlarge, or click here to download .pdf):

Psu_starters_vs_win_percentage_1971-2010__offense__medium

Look deeper: 1995: The opposite of '94, this team returned nearly everything from the undefeated team a year before, but lacked the very key components, losing Ki-Jana Carter and Kerry Collins.

On the money: 1999. But barely. This team should have been actually more dominant than the 1994 team was, considering it returned the most experienced starters in Joe Paterno's career at PSU. It did reach No. 2, but it should have stayed there. This is one of the most enigmatic teams in PSU history.

On the money: 2000. When you lose the '99 defense, it's going to hurt. But geez, this much? The '00 team was extremely young in too many key areas, combined with an overall lower level of talent.

Check out the defensive starters chart (click to enlarge, or click here to download .pdf):

Psu_starters_vs_win_percentage_1971-2010__defense__medium

Look deeper: 2004. The offense was simply horrid, with no running game, or receivers who could catch. While the defense was great, it couldn't carry all the water this team needed for a winning season.

On the money: 2005. Even though inexperienced players (Fab 4, M-Rob) took over and blossomed, the foundation for this team was laid over the previous two seasons, with tons of players starting multiple years.

Look deeper: 2010. With quite a few returning on both sides of the ball, this team was killed by super-green quarterbacks, and an unexplainable rash of injuries to key positions. But looking back, when PSU loses such a good QB, it's rarely going to exceed expectations.

So...What About 2011?

Indeed, what about 2011? Using a delicate mix of raw numbers and detailed nuance, it's a fine bet to say Penn State has all the parts for a very successful season in 2011. That does not mean the Nittany Lions are going to automatically go 11-1 because 23 starters return from last year's team. But it does give Penn State a much, much better outlook on this season than it would with fewer players returning. That's my impression of Captain Obvious.

Last year the team had to deal with losing the most important single position on the field: quarterback. Not only was the loss significant because Daryll Clark was an experienced winner, but he was a two-time All-Big Ten player. That meant the flaws in the 2009 Nittany Lions were masked by Clark's superior skill and knowledge. But many of the same flaws in 2009--sketchy defensive line play at the top of that list--was not resolved in 2010, mostly due to the ghastly number of injuries to the unit. That, combined with losing Clark, was a deadly cocktail for a team that was expected to suffer a reloading season anyway.

The big difference between this upcoming season and past seasons with a significant number of returning starters, is the huge volume of players who started more than 3 games last year due to other players' injuries. Malcolm Willis wouldn't be considered a returning starter this year, had Nick Sukay not gone down for the season in week 6. The defensive line loses two (Obgu to graduation, Massaro to ACL) starters going into this year, but still returns four (Crawford, Latimore, Hill, Still) who started at least three games in 2010.

Year Off. Def. S.T. Tot. W% W L Offense Defense
2011 10 12 1 23 ? ? ? QB Rob Bolden, QB Matt McGloin, RB Joe Suhey, WR Justin Brown, WR Devon Smith, WR Derek Moye, TE Kevin Haplea, OL Quinn Barham, OL Johnnie Trouman, OL Chima Okoli DL Jordan Hill, DL Devon Still, DE Jack Crawford, DE Eric Latimore, LB Michael Mauti, LB Nate Stupar, CB Chaz Powell, CB Stephon Morris, CB D'Anton Lynn, S Drew Astorino, S Malcolm Willis, S Nick Sukay, P Anthony Fera

The 2010 season and the injuries sustained by the team really were unprecedented in Penn State football history. Garry Gilliam, Lou Eliades, Nick Sukay out for the season, allowing Kevin Haplea, Chima Okoli and Malcolm Willis to all get starting time they wouldn't have otherwise. Then there were the short-term injuries and suspensions. Derrick Thomas and Sean Stanley were out, giving Chaz Powell and Jordan Hill starts. Eric Latimore and Jack Crawford were out as well.

All that considered, it's amazing to think this team eked out seven wins at all. But what it does for this team in 2011 is exponentially increase the amount of starting experience for the Nittany Lions on both sides of the ball. The biggest knock on the team last year was youth and inexperience. Most of both problems in 2010 have been resolved for 2011, with the massive amount of experienced starters returning looking like the biggest single improvement.

Looking back at the main starters vs. win percentage chart you can see there was only one period between 1971 and 2010 when Penn State saw a pattern of under-performing based on returning starters. You guessed it. That period came during the "dark years," when the overall talent level in the program was way below the standard for Penn State. Other than that, seasons like 1984, 1992 and 1995 were outliers that we looked at in the Examples section, where outside factors contributed to Penn State not living up to the high number of returning starters in those seasons. Again, remember that every season is different, no matter how many starters return.

Something like a conclusion

Penn State returns 23 players who started three or more games in 2010. You simply don't see that every year, or even every decade. Most of the previews you'll read only account for the "assumed" starters, though they won't refer to them that way. Even in Phil Steele's magazine this year, he lists only 15 returning starters. To illustrate how that's not a very accurate picture of what Penn State returns this year, Steele does not even list Michael Mauti, Matt McGloin or Malcolm Willis (among others) as returning starters.

Even if the quarterback play isn't great--regardless, it will be greatly improved over 2010--with a much-improved offensive line and talent bursting from the skill positions, combined with a defense that actually returns more talent this year than it had last season, Penn State only has to "play smart" football to succeed. Unless the Nittany Lions suffer through another ridiculous rash of injuries (knock on wood), there's no reason to believe this team won't have the talent and experience to be a serious contender for the Big Ten East/Leaders division in 2011.

Comment 158 comments  |  22 recs  | 

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It's a shame I can only rec this once

Great work

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 8:05 AM EDT reply actions  

Thanks. It's always stressful

when doing big-ish posts like this. You’re never sure if you miss something or if it even make sense. Plus, I’ve had this ready to post for about 48 hours, so the waiting game made my anxiety levels worse, always wanting to go back in to tweak something here or there.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

112% optimistic.

That sounds suspiciously like Curley Hallman math.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Aug 29, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hey!

Hallmans rock.

'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'

by Pete the Streak on Aug 29, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I totally have a big chub now...excellent!

"It just might be that the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others." Despair.com

by RWReese on Aug 29, 2011 8:52 AM EDT reply actions  

I'll bite my tongue on this one

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Aug 29, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well there ya go...

see what I meant when I said it always feels like you forget to include stuff in these longer posts?

Great stuff.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Whatever

Your post is more truthful and insightful than anything the Pennlive jokers or Pittsburgh PG baffoons have ever written, and it’s really not all that close.

SAY SOMETHIN’ FOOGE. I KNOW YOU’RE READING THIS.

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Now now...

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

amateur

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

My pie in the sky hope

is that 2010 = 1984, and 2011 = 1985.

Word on the street is you're a jerk, Mitchell.

by icavalera on Aug 29, 2011 9:00 AM EDT reply actions  

As much as I hate to compare pre-1993 teams with post-1997 teams due to the effects of the 85 scholarship rule

2010 >> 1984. 1984 had a winning record on nothing but reputation and a game against William and Mary. 2010 was young, injured, and unlucky all at once, and I still think beats MSU or Florida at least 6 times if they play them 10 times.

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

If 2010 PSU was healthy

or at least avoided 80% of the ridiculous injuries last season, PSU would have beaten MSU with ease, and also beaten Florida. The team was rolling after the bye week. Most people don’t realize how important that bye was for that young team.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great,

so maybe 2011 will be > 1985. I’m going tenaciously cling to this theory until we lose 2 games.

Word on the street is you're a jerk, Mitchell.

by icavalera on Aug 29, 2011 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

here's hoping

but I predicted 10-2

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

But with the 12-game schedule

one could say that if PSU goes 10-2 in 2011, it’s in fact like 1985 because 10-1 is definitely included in that record.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

true

I think predicting undefeated for any team is always insane, because at a mathematical minimum, roughly 10% of all games are upsets. Even if a team is noticeably better than every team on their schedule, they should expect to go 11-1 either 10-2

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

*or 10-2

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree.

The 2010 team beat no one on the level of 1984 Iowa, who had notable players like Chuck Long, Ronnie Harmon, Owen Gill, Jonathan Banks, Larry Station, along with talented depth. They finished below expectations, primarily due to injuries, but I think my point still stands.

Now let's go surprise Harry Heth!

by ReadingRambler on Aug 29, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Iowa game was...strange

Penn State also got thumped by the same Texas team that Iowa destroyed in their bowl game

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have a DVD of said Iowa game.

Strange doesn’t even begin to describe it.

Now let's go surprise Harry Heth!

by ReadingRambler on Aug 29, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

And 2012 = 1986 while we're at it...

Word on the street is you're a jerk, Mitchell.

by icavalera on Aug 29, 2011 9:00 AM EDT reply actions   2 recs

The only reason it can't be

is because in 1986 there were 19 returning starters. Unless there are injuries this year (/feverishly knocking on wood) PSU won’t have that many return in 2012.

But I like the first two parts.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I did say it was my "pie in the sky" hope.

Certainly not expecting it – it’s just the overly optimistic view of things I always have at this time of year.

Word on the street is you're a jerk, Mitchell.

by icavalera on Aug 29, 2011 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

We can cover that if our d-line kids pan out.

But I guess I should wait to make that prediction.

It ain't safe in the city, watch the throne


Black Shoe Diaries

by Adam Collyer on Aug 29, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

good point...

like a 2008-ish season….great front 7, weak back 4

by Artiefufkin10 on Aug 29, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except at LB

WOOOOOOOO

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Aug 29, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

are we still talking about football?

or referencing dystopian / disaster movies?

by RoBo_Cop on Aug 29, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's worth noting

that several players who don’t qualify as “starters” using Mike’s very reasonable definition still saw a lot of meaningful reps last season, including Mike Zordich and Silas Redd on offense and Gerald Hodges and DaQuan Jones on D. Add in having a fifth-year senior at TE, and you’re looking at even more valuable experience on the roster.

Very nice piece, btw. Great research.

"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd

by PSU_Buch on Aug 29, 2011 9:19 AM EDT reply actions  

Thanks, and yes

I was tempted to finagle the definition of a returning starter so that Redd/Zordich/Hodges etc. could be in there. But then I was just pushing at that point.

YOur observations were not lost though.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

The definition works well

I think you ended up drawing the line in about the right place.

"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd

by PSU_Buch on Aug 29, 2011 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

You beat me to it, Buch.

Not sure how big your server farm is, Mike, but it would be interesting to crunch the numbers of players who played significant minutes (60%? 75%?) and have returned. As everyone is noting, last year provided a growth opportunity for players who subbed in for injured guys. Even if player A regained his starting position after an injury, he might have been pulled early because he wasn’t yet 100% or wasn’t getting it done or whatever. How much PT did his back-up get in those circumstances?

I'd like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little Soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals and dear little regimental officers, who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight.

by PSU_Lions_84 on Aug 29, 2011 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

NOW it's official

I feel humbled

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

DO YOU SEE THIS INDIANA STATE?

THE PAIN TRAIN’S COMING FOR YOU. WOO WOO!

HATEHATEHATEHATEHATE

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 9:26 AM EDT reply actions  

The sap coming out of the Sycamores

will be brown and smelly.

I'd like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little Soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals and dear little regimental officers, who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight.

by PSU_Lions_84 on Aug 29, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Clearly, they are not as ‘well endowed.’

"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd

by PSU_Buch on Aug 29, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Poorly endowed indeed.

'People are about as happy as they decide they want to be'

by Pete the Streak on Aug 29, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

TWSS.

I'd like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little Soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals and dear little regimental officers, who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight.

by PSU_Lions_84 on Aug 29, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Terre Haute?

More like Terre Not.

BSD Wentworth
Co-Founding Partner
Chariman, Hiring Committee*

*Accepting Applications

by PSUinBOSSton on Aug 29, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Terre Haute is in Vigo county.

What do they think this is, Ghostbusters II?

BSD Wentworth
Co-Founding Partner
Chariman, Hiring Committee*

*Accepting Applications

by PSUinBOSSton on Aug 29, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Where do ISU graduates end up anyway?

Oh, coaching the PSU men’s basketball team at the Altoona campus, got it.

BSD Wentworth
Co-Founding Partner
Chariman, Hiring Committee*

*Accepting Applications

by PSUinBOSSton on Aug 29, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

A couple days ago I tweeted out that I was considering ISU +37

A few minutes later, the official Indiana State twitter replied to me with, and I quote, “Yea!!! GO STATE! #proudtobeatree”

They’re dead.

Greyshirted No More
Black Shoe Diaries
@runthedive

by Peter Gray on Aug 29, 2011 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not bets I've seen, but

what do you think?

1. PSU over/under 34.5 points at halftime
2. Indiana State over/under 13.5 points scored
3. PSU over/under 2.5 offensive TD at the 20 min mark
4. Indiana State over/under 3.5 halftime points

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Over on all

"We're going to do all we can to get this team right, to go after that national championship" - Devon Still

by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Aug 29, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Except #2

"We're going to do all we can to get this team right, to go after that national championship" - Devon Still

by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Aug 29, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

...

1. PSU over/under 34.5 points at halftime – UNDER
2. Indiana State over/under 13.5 points scored – UNDER
3. PSU over/under 2.5 offensive TD at the 20 min mark – OVER
4. Indiana State over/under 3.5 halftime points – UNDER

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

that's my general feeling too

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ehhhhhh

1. Under over under over under
2. Under
3. Over
4. Over

Greyshirted No More
Black Shoe Diaries
@runthedive

by Peter Gray on Aug 29, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Under
Under
Over
Over

Formerly known as kmart93

Black Shoe Diaries

by Kyle_Martin on Aug 29, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

can trees even feel pride?

soulless vegetables.

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.

by skarocksoi on Aug 29, 2011 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I've never seen a tree named Danny

so I’m going with no

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Still figuring out how to embed pics (sorry, Paige!)

so here is a link to the “after” situation for the Sycamores:

http://dukechronicle.com/article/hurricane-irene-leaves-duke-durham-largely-unharmed

I'd like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little Soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals and dear little regimental officers, who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight.

by PSU_Lions_84 on Aug 29, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Here you go:

Word on the street is you're a jerk, Mitchell.

by icavalera on Aug 29, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks, Icavalera!

Was that tree dead or DEAD? Sucker is hollow inside.

I'd like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little Soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals and dear little regimental officers, who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight.

by PSU_Lions_84 on Aug 29, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Judging by the think green foliage

I’m going to side on the tree previously alive.

And not to get all sciency on you, and I should note that I haven’t studied plant biology since I was a freshman, but the most important parts of the inner tree structure IIRC is not the center of the tree, but the area in between the center and the bark (the phloem, which is essential to transporting sugars and water up and down the trunk).

The center of the tree is called heartwood, and it’s essentially just compact wood from the pressure of the tree growing both inwards and outwards. I don’t believe it’s as functional as the outer core of the tree, so the heartwood can break down, and the tree can still live, however, it’s less stable, but still alive.

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Aug 29, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bill Nye lives, and he is a Penn Stater!

J/k, Dawson!!

I appreciate the quick tutorial, and it really helps because I have some trees at home that I could worry about if my quota were not already full.

So the moral that applies to this weekend is that the Lions do not need to totally cut down the Sycamores, just affect the phloem.

I'd like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little Soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals and dear little regimental officers, who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight.

by PSU_Lions_84 on Aug 29, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you've heard about Elm Yellows

The disease that’s currently wiping out Penn State’s elms all over campus. The type of bacteria that causes the disease infects the phloem of the tree, and same sort of thing, except that the tree slowly starves and dehydrates to death. Only at Penn State would I get emotional about tree death, but it’s sad to see them cutting down all these trees that I grew up walking under. It’s something that really hits you, when you go back and realize that there’s something missing from the landscape around you, then you realize that it’s not going to look the same ever again (or for 50 years or so if they replant).

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Aug 29, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remember the elms -- one of the many things

I loved about Penn State.

Having grown up in a rural part of PA, trees were an important part of my childhood environment. I remember the devastation caused by gypsy moths. It’s tough to see one’s memories distorted . . . .

I'd like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little Soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals and dear little regimental officers, who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight.

by PSU_Lions_84 on Aug 29, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

It really hit me walking down College Ave by Pugh Street this summer

For a second I was extremely confused as to where I was because it looked totally different. They took down the trees outside Spats, and the one tree that was right by the Skeller. It looks like a different place now.

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Aug 30, 2011 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think I've figured it out for you.

Go to the site that you want, such as: http://dukechronicle.com/article/hurricane-irene-leaves-duke-durham-largely-unharmed. Right click on the picture and select properties. Copy the Address (URL): line. Then come on here and in the body of your comment type: ! paste the address and then ! (without spaces) (e.g. ! http://dukechronicle.com/sites/default/files/images/08292011/news/155869%20Hurricane%20Havoc-AT/article_ChelseaPieroni.jpg !) becomes a picture once you take out the spaces.

 

This is BSD, the crazy stirs itself.

by Paige2PSU on Aug 29, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

For future reference,

right click on the photo you want to imbed. Choose “copy image location”. Then in the body of your comment, click on the image icon (next to the chain link, under the subject box). When the “enter the URL” box appears, paste the image location and click “ok”. That’s all there is to it.

Word on the street is you're a jerk, Mitchell.

by icavalera on Aug 29, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

The embed link never worked well for me.

And Lions84 is on IE, so he didn’t have copy image location as an option.

This is BSD, the crazy stirs itself.

by Paige2PSU on Aug 29, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks, both of you!

Paige, your IE instructions worked brilliantly. Now I just need to figure out to how size things — the pic I posted is billboard-sized.

I'd like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little Soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals and dear little regimental officers, who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight.

by PSU_Lions_84 on Aug 29, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

TWSS?

This is BSD, the crazy stirs itself.

by Paige2PSU on Aug 29, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Football, people, football!

The focus is on FOOTBALL!!!

I'd like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little Soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals and dear little regimental officers, who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight.

by PSU_Lions_84 on Aug 29, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or is it?

Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 29, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well-done.

Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 29, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, I'm on Firefox.

Didn’t know it was different for IE.

Word on the street is you're a jerk, Mitchell.

by icavalera on Aug 29, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Zach Follet is now playing for PSU?

I thought he used all his eligibility at Cal

All of our comments are irrelevant - letsgoPSU

by jaytay13 on Aug 29, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

This article does a great job of articulating my optimism.

I think the returning starts on the OL are part of it. Everyone seems to be pointing to the loss of Wiz and saying our line will be worse. I think that is not correct.

Also, and I hate to do this because the post is so terrific, but I wonder if some SOS or weighted record would be useful. I bring this up only because you mentioned that DC was a bandaid for the 2009 team that finished with 9 wins. While I don’t disagree, I think the schedule that year was a bigger factor for the 10 wins.

BSD Wentworth
Co-Founding Partner
Chariman, Hiring Committee*

*Accepting Applications

by PSUinBOSSton on Aug 29, 2011 9:29 AM EDT reply actions  

I know, and I agree that's a big part of it

but sticking to just the “returning starters” angle, this is where I ended up.

2003 was another example of PSU having a very tough SOS, which made the team look that much more horrible. Yes, ’03 was bad, but the schedule made it worse.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Holy SHITTO!!!

Talk about information overload. Dude, great work on this piece! I’ve printed it and plan on reading it about 26,000 times over the course of the season. Seriously, thanks for a great article.

by rodney20 on Aug 29, 2011 9:30 AM EDT reply actions  

Generally I see returning starter defined as starting 6 or 7+ games

But this works well and definitely gets the point across. So I rec’d this because it’s very well written. Great job!

"We're going to do all we can to get this team right, to go after that national championship" - Devon Still

by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Aug 29, 2011 9:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Correlation Between Number of Returning Starters and Win Percentage

Very interesting analysis. However, although there are some cases that support your argument that the number of returning starters indicates the team’s success in a given season, overall, there is no statistically significant correlation. For those readers who are familiar with statistics, the linear correlation coefficient between the number of returning starters and the winning percentage is only 0.149, which is not significant. In other words, the number of returning starters is NOT a reliable indicator of the team’s success. The year-to-year variation in these two parameters is mostly random.

by dralditt on Aug 29, 2011 9:33 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm checking on this myself.

But i’m wondering the correlation needs to be computed between returning starters as a percentage of the roster vs. win percentage?

by Artiefufkin10 on Aug 29, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

How many of us do you really think are familiar with the actual science of statistics?

I’m not. But really, aren’t all numbers in sports random? I mean, that’s like how people say teams with a high rushing-yards-per-game average are better because they run the ball well. But that’s not really true, because how many teams’ rushing averages go up only because they tend to run the ball to kill the clock when up by a few scores? So running the ball well doesn’t really make a team better than any other. Right?

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

How did you compute this?

I just punched that data (returning starters in one column, win % in the other) into Matlab and computed the covariance matrix.

assuming I did this correctly, the correlation between Starters and win % was 1.0795.

by Artiefufkin10 on Aug 29, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Alright, now explain this for somebody that isn't a math major

"We're going to do all we can to get this team right, to go after that national championship" - Devon Still

by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Aug 29, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not a math major. Engineer.

Covariance matrix just tells you how correlated (or related) two or more variables are in a data set. In our case we’re looking at number of returning starters and win % as our variates.

Given that the correlation coefficient between them is positive, we can say that in general, as number of returning starters increases, win % increases as well.

I’m not sure how to test the statistical significance.

by Artiefufkin10 on Aug 29, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Test for Significance

My linear correlation coefficient of 0.149 is below the 95% significance level of 0.312. Again, this indicates that more of the variance is random.

by dralditt on Aug 29, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Correction

My linear correlation coefficient of 0.149 is below the 95% significance level of 0.312. Again, this indicates that MOST of the variance is random.

by dralditt on Aug 29, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Been a while since I did my prob/stat

Don’t confidence intervals depend on sample size? So there may be a decent correlation in the sample set, but it is simply too small to justify a 95% confidence interval. Not that this changes the net result—there is only a weak positive correlation for the given data.

Thanks for the analysis, it is necessary for an article like this before considering individual data points, especially the outliers. It would be interesting to see what happens when considering larger data sets, especially when it comes to position groups. I’d bet OL and DL have stronger correlations than other positions, but who knows until the data crunched.

by gcdyersb on Aug 29, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes and no.

The larger the sample size, the less likely you are of making a Type II error (essentially a false negative) and the more likely you will be to find a difference if one exists. However, just because you increase sample size, doesn’t mean that the direction or magnitude of the relationship will continue to be in the direction that you noticed in a small sample size. That’s why I can’t stand the term “Nearing statistical significance” for things approaching an alpha of 0.05. Larger sample sizes will also result in narrower confidence intervals.

Dralditt, what’s the p-value on your correlation coefficient?

This is BSD, the crazy stirs itself.

by Paige2PSU on Aug 29, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just so everyone is on the same page

I do trust that the math pokes some holes in the idea that returning starters does not guarantee a certain win percentage. However, I never said it was. In fact, it was one of the very first lines of the article…

It’s not to say everything depends on the headcount of returning starters each year. But if you’re looking for a very reliable jumping-off point on which to base a season prediction, the number of returning starters is the best place to start.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Many Factors Influence Winning Percentage

What these stastistics indicate is what is intuitively obvious – MANY factors influence the team’s success – strength of schedule, injuries, depth and quality of personnel, coaching, etc.

by dralditt on Aug 29, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

While that is all true,

you have just named a bunch of things that largely cannot be determined during the pre-season. SOS is useless since you don’t know how any team will perform, no way to predict injuries, depth and quality of personnel depends largely on development and injuries. This one can be determined pre-season and is the best we have right now. I think that’s all Mike was saying.

BSD Wentworth
Co-Founding Partner
Chariman, Hiring Committee*

*Accepting Applications

by PSUinBOSSton on Aug 29, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Couldn't have explained it any better than that. Thanks.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd

by PSU_Buch on Aug 29, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have a deep voice

Wendy from Wonder Years is a big reason why

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

oh yeah

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

NERDS!!!

(said as I’m sitting at my computer inside an avian virology diagnostic lab….)

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Aug 29, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, Kettle

meet Pot.

"This is BSD, the crazy stirs itself," dwf5095

by Paige2PSU on Aug 29, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe not a proven direct correlation between returning starters and win%

due to the fact that all positions are not of equal importance, all “returning starters” are not created equal, schedules can vary significantly from year to year, and even though 40 years takes a ton of research, relatively small sample size, but still as good of an indicator as we have until actual games are played.

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wonderfully researched and equally great article!

"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.

by DerryPharmer on Aug 29, 2011 9:34 AM EDT reply actions  

Great job.

I particularly like this:

That does not mean the Nittany Lions are going to automatically go 11-1 because 23 starters return from last year’s team.

The implication being that the Nittany Lions are going to automatically go 12-0.

Is anyone here a veterinarian, 'cause these pythons are SICK!

by WorldBFat on Aug 29, 2011 9:45 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

On a related note

Drake almost all the way back, per Philly.com: http://articles.philly.com/2011-08-27/sports/29935023_1_joe-paterno-preseason-practice-penn-state-coach

"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd

by PSU_Buch on Aug 29, 2011 9:51 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

YOUR HATE MAKES YOU STRONGER

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

PSU fans replies to online comment from mother's basement

STATE COLLEGE— lol

"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd

by PSU_Buch on Aug 29, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

$%^@

I can’t believe I stepped on my d**k and messed up that subject line…. then again, this is just a blog, so who gives a damn, right?

"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd

by PSU_Buch on Aug 29, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

"Amateur blog."

But you’re just an amateur blog commenter, so I expect your inaccuracy.

by Chris Grovich on Aug 29, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Taken somewhat from BHGP

A blog is a website where people post articles and comments on things. An amateur doesn’t make much money doing what he does if he makes any at all! There are many factors involved when deciding to disrespect where you got your start, and other people coming in and doing it better might be one of them.

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Man this thread just keeps getting better. Rec’d.

by Kevin Powers on Aug 29, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depth chart out today

This is totally off topic, but everyone seems to be reading here, and since ‘nobody reads the fanposts,’ I figured I’d throw it out:

Anybody care to place a bet on the odds that SID will do that thing every fan and journalist (real and fake-on-the-internet) HATES, where they list the starting QB as “Matt McGloin OR Rob Bolden?”

"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd

by PSU_Buch on Aug 29, 2011 10:32 AM EDT reply actions  

I truly don't care.

Let the games begin already. Unless QB A really bones it up and is replaced permanently by QB B, this weekend’s game will not decide the QB “race”, and I am okay with that.

I JUST WANT 2011 PENN STATE FOOTBALL TO START!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little Soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals and dear little regimental officers, who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight.

by PSU_Lions_84 on Aug 29, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

And both to step off the bus simultaneously

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, no. Both stuffed into the same paid of pants with just their torsos separated.

Two headed quarterback system to the extreme.

BSD Wentworth
Co-Founding Partner
Chariman, Hiring Committee*

*Accepting Applications

by PSUinBOSSton on Aug 29, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

No QB - No Peace

Know QB – Know Peace!

" When you cross that Blue Line, you are mine...Across the Blue Line, it's all football. " " And what you need to do in your life is paint Blue Lines everywhere. " - Joe Paterno 2009

...

"...it smells like...victory..." Col. Kilgore

"Rambler can't have any power" ... He would be a tyrannical wielder of the the banhammer if he did. We couldn’t have: "Oh, you don’t like Iowa – banned." "You don’t like old country guys – banned" "You don’t like corn – banned" or "You’re a dirty rotten southern traitor – banned." It would be pure chaos." - Paige

by BlueWhiteLife on Aug 29, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Adventures in numberland

What follows is a graph of PSU’s average win% when returning a given number of starters, plus or minus one starter (in hopes of filtering out some of the noise and finding a reliable correlation):

I only included the range of 32-40 because: 1) It’s relevant to this season, 2)It’s relevant to 18 of the last 31 years, 12 of the last 15, and 4 of the last 5, and 3)there appears to be a decent correlation in that range

PSU’s returning starters for this year + last year = 40

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 11:25 AM EDT reply actions  

I spent all weekend...

…buried in Statistics and Minitab hell, and now I have to wade through this excellent, thoroughly-researched article?

Marge: "Oh Homer. You're only hearing what you want to hear."
Homer: "Thanks! I'd love an omelette right about now."

by LowcountryLion on Aug 29, 2011 12:20 PM EDT reply actions  

This has me excited

The amount of talent and experience we have at nearly every position—especially on defense—really is formidable.

I’ll say it again: this defense will keep us in every game we play, and the offense will do enough to win against all but the very best of opposing D’s.

ACCEPTS THE PAYPAL
Hello, everybody, coach get old, the new coach approaching, click in.
Welcome to http://www.pennlive.com

by newenglandnittanylion on Aug 29, 2011 12:22 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I could really see Ohio State and Alabama

being “first team to 10 points wins” games where neither scores more than 15

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

That is my fervent hope, NewEngland!

I'd like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little Soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals and dear little regimental officers, who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight.

by PSU_Lions_84 on Aug 29, 2011 12:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Easy rec.

The 2005 spike is really interesting. It also makes me long for what 2008 should have been.

There’s a lot of math around returning starter correlation, but this is the best work I’ve seen on explaining my frustration with that, which is that there’s very real quality implications associated with the raw numbers. Said 100 times but this is fantastic.

by Kevin Powers on Aug 29, 2011 12:48 PM EDT reply actions  

1999 kills me more than 08

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

2008 wasn't too bad...

A year before we were all thinking that schedule was going to be brutal, but it actually was handled quite well.

The let down can be explained by inherent weakness in the secondary going against the best passing D in the country.

by Artiefufkin10 on Aug 29, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Remember how everyone was ready to start a lynching party at Jay's house?

Everyone was freaking out that an unrecruited 2 star kid from Ohio was looking like he was beating out a 4 star next-in-line kid.

I think that time was one of my favorite times being right ever. DC17 FTW!

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Aug 29, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll say I was 100% behind DC17

even though I’m very strongly in favor of RoBo starting this year. I don’t judge by stars or hype. I judge by what’s on the field. And RoBo showed more… to me. But everyone is entitled to their own thought son that matter.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not going to hold any grudges from last year

Both McGloin and Bolden get a clean slate from me. McGloin for his overall doucheaness and throwing (literally) the bowl game away. And Bolden for acting like a 4 year old who isn’t getting everything he wants.

I just want the coaches to pick whoever is looking the best and gives us the best chance to win. I really hope though, if McGloin is the starter that he doesn’t get booed when he goes out. I hate that, and that’s douchiness from the fans.

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Aug 30, 2011 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agree 100%
I really hope though, if McGloin is the starter that he doesn’t get booed when he goes out.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 30, 2011 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good stuff. My own completely unscientific predictor...

…is offensive line returning starters. This team has 3, plus a tight end. I think that’s a very good sign.

by J Breezy on Aug 29, 2011 12:52 PM EDT reply actions  

I've never ran the numbers personally

but I’ve been told that the single greatest predictor for what a team’s record will be in a given year is their average record of the last two years. The second greatest predictor is the number of combined starts (not necessarily starters, but starts) returning between the offensive line and QB.

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a good recipe. It's even better if there are a lot of 5th year seniors on the line.

I think I first noticed this in 1988 with WVU. Pretty sure all 5 o-line guys were 5th year seniors (pro teams don’t have 5 guys who play/practice together 5 years) and they had a great qb returning in Major Harris.

Look how that worked out for them – they played for the national title that year. Sure, they also benefited from a ridiculously easy and favorable schedule (they had their “toughest” opponent, which actually was a bad PSU team, at home)…really ND was the first really tough team they played. But still….they got there by whipping up on teams with their combination of an experienced line and good qb.

by J Breezy on Aug 29, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Total returning STARTS on the O-line is incredibly important

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most of the best offensive lines each year have 100-plus starts returning

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Penn State returns 65 starts between the O line and QB positions

Which is slightly below average, but significantly more than last year (56), and given that the Klop isn’t starting anymore, the offensive line should be much better than last year, if not exactly good.

"I play for Penn State, we don't celebrate after TDs." - Penn State's Derek Moye, on being asked to act like he's celebrating a TD during a BTN shoot.

by ckmneon on Aug 29, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great topic, great input, great comments

rec’d all-around

" When you cross that Blue Line, you are mine...Across the Blue Line, it's all football. " " And what you need to do in your life is paint Blue Lines everywhere. " - Joe Paterno 2009

...

"...it smells like...victory..." Col. Kilgore

"Rambler can't have any power" ... He would be a tyrannical wielder of the the banhammer if he did. We couldn’t have: "Oh, you don’t like Iowa – banned." "You don’t like old country guys – banned" "You don’t like corn – banned" or "You’re a dirty rotten southern traitor – banned." It would be pure chaos." - Paige

by BlueWhiteLife on Aug 29, 2011 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

That's absolutely true, ya know...

…b/c a (former) newspaper reporter wrote it.

A Garden State Nittany Lion...

"The way things are these days, 9-3 and one of the best graduation rates in the country doesn't seem like such a terrible bargain to make. - Michael Weinreb"

by Mike Pettigano on Aug 29, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Truly an incredible job. While we can't say it's a 100% certainty, it certainly does instill hope.

It’s also awesome to see the “Paterno Cycle” in graph form. A lot of people seem to freak out when we look even the slightest bit shaky, and then start declaring the second coming of the Dark Years, but this is a nice visual representation of that.

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Aug 29, 2011 4:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Gut Feeling

is what I go by. Not a math guy-I am a refugee from a fairly prestigious technical institute in the Northeast so although I once was good at math I don’t care for it. Anyway in the past 25 years I had really good gut feelings leading up to the following seasons: 1986, 1991, 1994, 1999 and 2008. I would say I was right 4 times and was doing great on the 5th (1999) until the 10th game of the regular season. I do not have such a feeling about this season.

"You can't handle the truth!"

by nits4ever on Aug 29, 2011 7:13 PM EDT reply actions  

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