Response is better than reaction
by ReadingRambler on Sep 10, 2011 8:26 PM EDT
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PrintPreface for Alabama fans: Congratulations. I think yours is the best team in the country because I highly, highly doubt Oklahoma is capable of fielding a defense that good. Moreover, while McCarron has really girly, preppy hair (Sorry, have to say it) his offensive line gave him time to throw and, hey, his receivers are pretty good. So the Tide has a truly great defense with a good and improving offense. Sounds like 2009 to me.
Preface for all other SEC fans: Suck it.
Preface for Penn State fans: You know what? At least we're not Texas. Or Iowa.
It's funny how we so often miss the obvious. The fairly obvious difference between responding and reacting was best articulated for me by a pastor's sermon one weekend in the 717. Ever since I heard that articulation, I've tried - and often, often failed - to respond rather than react. That's what I'm going to do here. I'm not going to complain about our lack of elite status and I'm not going to rant. I've gotten vastly better at accepting losses. A cynic would say that's because Penn State loses so much. I say it's because I'm maturing as a fan and as a person. In any event, by the time Sczerba (I'll never spell that right) fumbled I was already, in the back of my mind, thinking of how I'd respond to a loss. I didn't expect a loss coming into this game, but I didn't expect a win either. I was very optimistic (Like Joe), but I was neutral - I don't remember ever feeling so neutral coming into a game.
Anyway, on with the show.
If I were to describe the difference between last year's Alabama game and this year's Alabama game, I would choose to use video of Trent Richardson playing against us last year and this year. Last year we would see a defensive line that couldn't get much penetration, linebackers who were embarrassingly timid, and defensive backs who were being forced to make clean-up tackles defensive backs should never have to make. This year we would see what we expect from the idea of a great tailback playing a typical Penn State defense; Richardson didn't break many tackles, did he? He ran effectively enough for Alabama to take advantage of all of the key plays that seemed to go their way (Such is football sometimes) but he did not dominate, or come even close to it. This team, and defense in particular, played poorly last year. They did not, as a whole, play poorly this year.
Quarterbacks - I know this sounds like crap, but they basically played how I thought they would play. I thought McGloin would be slightly more effective with the ball, but I'm not going to blame him too much because, seriously, folks, Alabama's defense is outstanding - their secondary especially - and, speaking for myself, I knew they weren't going to give us many chances after the first two or three possessions. I can't blame McGloin or Bolden; I think they played about to the level of reasonable expectations. I will say that Bolden definitely appears to be the better quarterback right now - a lead that he probably won't relinquish.
Tailbacks and fullbacks - All I've got to say is, gosh, I love Silas Redd. He's not going to get tons of praise in the aftermath, but that dude ran like a great Penn State tailback. His workout routine really must be awesome.
Offensive line - There is not a better defense in the country than Alabama's unit. They are unquestionably better than anyone in the Big Ten. And how many sacks did we give up today? If you had told me we would lose this game 27-11, I would have immediately thought of a game much like the one we saw with one big difference: tons of sacks against poor Bolden and McGloin. And we saw zero from a unit that gave up a couple of sacks to Indiana State!(!) These offensive linemen of ours aren't just good, they're well-coached too. The only downside here, of course, was the run game. But, when compared to the 2009 Iowa or Ohio State games, and, when the greatness (This verb is more than appropriate) of Alabama's defense is recalled, I think it's safe to say they did a job that was about neutral in terms of exceeding or falling short of expectations. I won't and can't heap too much praise because there were a lot of 2nd and longs today. Still, I expected them to get almost nothing on the ground today, so I am somewhat pleased and definitely optimistic. Again, we'll play nobody with the defensive toughness of Alabama this year. Nebraska will be in the neighborhood, but they won't be a real challenger for the title of best defense.
Wide receivers and tight ends - Blackledge said Joe told him that he was disappointed by the timidness of his receivers. If this is manifested in drops, then, well, yeah.
Hey, before we go on, can I just say that that Derek Moye one-handed grab was ludicrously awesome?
But back to the main point, Alabama's secondary shut down our wide receivers who are good, but not great, and slightly inexperienced. Brown is a good receiver, but he may never be a true go-to target.
And I know it's natural to trump our opponents after a loss, but we need to be realistic. Alabama's secondary is the best in the country. I believed what I heard about that defense in general, but I never gave much thought to the possibility that their secondary would give our quarterbacks limited options on so many plays. If you anticipated what we saw (Plenty of time but frequently few throwing options downfield), please say so in the comment section.
All in all, the receivers will almost undoubtedly be vastly more productive over the course of the year.
I didn't do a good job of analyzing the blocking of the tight ends (I never do). As for their pass receiving skills, I'd say they met the somewhat low expectations we have for them. Let's not even talk about that damn fumble.
Defensive ends - I didn't expect any of these guys to put tremendous amounts of pressure on opponents and we're probably not going to see that. They're solid against the run though, Crawford will probably be a decent to good threat against most Big Ten offensive lines, and, hey, where did all of that pass blocking come from?
Defensive tackles - Very, very good, but lacking in depth. What we expected is what we got.
Linebackers - Great.
Secondary - Somewhere in between very good and great. I don't want to hear any more criticism of our white safeties because they're both really, really good. The corners also performed fairly excellently against Maze. McCarron had a lot of time to throw today, something we need to keep in mind when talking about this group.
Special teams - Wait, Evan Lewis can make a field goal? Ok. Well, anyway, this group gave us only one play to truly complain about.
Summary - This game sucked. I wanted it in the worst way. I wanted to prove our strength against the best team in the GREATEST CONFERENCE EVAH. I wanted it to prove Paterno's still got it. But I have a new appreciation of things after reading Paterno: By the Book this summer. To paraphrase a Paterno quote in that book: "Losing is important in teaching life lessons. But, God, I hate losing."
Do you really think Paterno has changed? Do you really think this team didn't want this game like no other? Do you really think that wasn't our best effort today?
No, we're not as "elite" as Alabama. But we're also not as far apart as it looked or as far apart as we fans undoubtedly think we are. Programs are judged by their on-field results and today we saw a Penn State team that played very, very well against a potentially great football team. I don't quite know how to quantify the sort of key breaks that all went against Penn State in this game, but, by God, they were there and they were not the kind of things that are indicative of poor coaching or poor play (And, please, please, don't complain about that reverse - that was a good call).
My point is this: I see no reason to not be optimistic about this season. In pure terms of what happens on the field (That is, putting aside for a moment what Penn State football truly means), we are not going to see another team as good as Alabama this year. We are not going to face another challenge like this one and we are probably not going to see so many damn bad breaks go against our team.
Going forward, one vision I will remember from this game was the sight of Zordich and Suhey, during the 4th, kneeling together and passionately talking to each other, presumably about the game, about our team. None of these guys have given up. These are the same players who have shown so much intensity and excitement during the pre-season and they are still coached by a great coaching staff (Yes, they were out-coached today, and, yes, they're imperfect, but they're still some of the best) led by the greatest coach there is.
Why shouldn't I be optimistic about this year? I can debate the possibility that Penn State will never be able to beat another "elite" team or I can focus on the fact that this is a very good Penn State team, one with a definite chance to win the conference. I choose the latter. Although I might do both if I get bored.
Anyhow, respond, don't react.
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Oh, and Denard still can't pass.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
I thought you were dead!
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 14, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought you were dead!
Just my dreams friend, just my dreams.
Actually, I have found that I don’t much care for the football crowd on BHGP.
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
It's the Wrestling Crowd that offers up the intellectuals!
Case in point, Jordan Burroughs just bought a chess board in Istanbul yesterday and is probably gonna win a Gold Medal tomorrow.
It’s the Wrestling Crowd that offers up the intellectuals!
Just like the Greeks of old.
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
An impossible question. I am so torn between them, but I think I need to go with the Greeks. They were plucky.
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
???
I never saw the Greeks pick themselves up after a disaster the magnitude of Cannae.
Besides, the Romans had a better concept of destiny. See, Paterno: By the Book pages 35-47.
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 16, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
True
though Brasidas didn’t do too bad (besides dying) in Amphipolis after Sphacteria and the Athenians kept fighting even after the Persians burnt their city to the ground. Also, Archimedes kind of ran herd on the Romans for a while around Syracuse. Love them both, just a little partial to the Greeks.
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
But didn't the Romans descend into complete licentiousness and barbary?
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
So did the Greeks.
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 17, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
What's wrong with the football crowd?
I think a lot of them are overreacting ponces, but a) They’re a damn sight better (and more justified) than the football crowd at, say, other places. Moreover, Bellanca always posts more during football season. Enough said.
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 16, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Too many idiots. Too much blather. Not enough wrestling. Never enough wrestling.
If they can all get pissy about us talking civil war, then I can get pissy about them insisting on displaying their middling intellects.
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
I assume, of course, that you're speaking more about the commenters than the authors.
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 17, 2011 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I kinda know the feeling sometimes.
Hire Eastern Michigan's coach - whoever that is!
by ReadingRambler on Sep 19, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
What the?
Hire Eastern Michigan's coach - whoever that is!
by ReadingRambler on Sep 21, 2011 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Magnum Ramblerum laudo, sine sapientia gloriaque nihil sumus.
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
damn missed a word
Magnum Ramblerum laudo, sine sua sapientia gloriaque nihil sumus
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
translation:
merle haggard merle haggard ramblin’ man merle haggard
Hire Eastern Michigan's coach - whoever that is!
by ReadingRambler on Sep 22, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
And also...
Ohio State is a jug full of the suck.
Somehow playing like that against Toledo doesn't strike me as being as impressive as playing well against this Alabama team.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 10, 2011 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice post
my thoughts exactly regarding the rest of the season. We’ll only continue to improve.
You write a ridiculous number of posts and comments on here
And I don’t always agree with a lot of what you have to say. But this is about the best thing anyone has ever posted on here. Well done.
Except you do an awesome job of dissing the Confederacy
That cannot be done enough.
by Big Beefer on Sep 10, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You fine folks wouldn't dare...
'There are two pains in life. There is the pain of discipline and the pain of disappointment. If you can handle the pain of discipline, then you'll never have to deal with the pain of disappointment,'- Nick Saban
by J Tadpole on Sep 11, 2011 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Pretty much my thoughts
I think you were a little nice on the OL and not nice enough to the secondary, but yeah, no huge disagreements
"We're going to do all we can to get this team right, to go after that national championship" - Devon Still
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Sep 10, 2011 8:41 PM EDT reply actions
I really can't fathom what I'm supposed to blame the offensive line for.
They were great in pass protection and, as for the run game, what did we expect? I mean, really?
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 10, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
They were solid, I wouldn't say great
And zero holes. Yes, it was great competition but there’s not excuse with the talent we bring in
"We're going to do all we can to get this team right, to go after that national championship" - Devon Still
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Sep 10, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
See, that's unreasonable.
Yes, there is an excuse when you’re playing against the best defense in the country.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
I have nothing to add, really. Pretty much summed up my thoughts during/following the game. Particularly
I see no reason to not be optimistic about this season.
The rest of the year, if the entire defense and offensive line can play as well as it did today, I like our chances in conference. And that will undoubtedly be the best defense our team plays all season. It was a great game by any measure…hard fought, sound tackling, very few penalties. Sucks we didn’t come away with the win, but there were a lot of positives to take away.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
Non-conference game
That’s the key phrase. In other non-conf games: Iowa lost to Iowa State. Purdue lost to Rice. Ohio State barely beat Toledo. Wiscy beat god-awful Oregon State. So, yeah, we lost to Alabama. But it could be worse…
It’s disappointing to watch as your favorite team loses a game, especially by making a slew of mistakes the coaching staff usually doesn’t allow. But this was a non-conference game, and a great wake up call to a very talented, but still inexperienced PSU team. They, both players and coaches, need to use this experience moving forward. This would have been a fantastic win (and it was certainly possibly, if unlikely), but the goal is to win the conference. That, my friends, is still very much in reach.
And, of course, well put, as usual, Rambler.
Several people have compared this 2011-12 stretch to the '85-86 stretch.
If that’s at all accurate and this is like 1985, I’d rather lose to Alabama early in the season than lose the Orange Bowl to Oklahoma.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 10, 2011 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
And if there’s one thing we’ve learned in the BCS era: losing early is forgiven, especially against good teams. It’s losing late that’s punished. Our schedule isn’t bad, at all, until November. And by then, this team will have grown into itself.
It's is probable....
that they don’t lose again until Nebraska. They might go 10-2.
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 10, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
And some "fans"
will still consider that a disappointment year… sad, really. There are 100 programs out of 120 that would kill for 10 and 11 win seasons. But with PSU fans 10 or 11 wins is never enough
I don't think..
PSU is that good, but they don’t play another 1/2 decent until Nebraska save for Iowa.
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 10, 2011 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Illinois is better than Iowa this year
And I think they’re both going to be at least half decent.
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by newenglandnittanylion on Sep 11, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I agree.
Northwestern will be a formidable opponent too. And Persa likely will be playing by the time we go to Evanston.
I don't think we should worry much about Northwestern.
Our defense can handle those guys. We’ll give up yards, but not enough to overcome the fact that Northwestern’s defense is basically laughable in comparison to the defense we just faced.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I could not disagree more
regarding being worried about NW. It’s a trap game, on the road. And they have given us problems when we play them away.
Not a gimme game by any stretch.
I'm not saying we shouldn't worry at all.
What I am saying is that we face tougher opponents in “trap game” situations. Northwestern gives us trouble when we play them away, but they’re rarely with us in the 4th quarter. Moreover, this Penn State team looks a lot better than Northwestern (No, I’m not impressed by Boston College) and Northwestern has only beaten one decent Penn State team and that was sixteen years ago. Illinois is currently a scarier game, in my opinion.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That I can agree with.
Illinois will be a challenge.
You mean the Boston College team that got romped by UCF?
Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?
Wait, seriously (I don't pay as much attention as I'd like to)?
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
It was decently close
Until UCF put up 21 points in the 4th to win, 30-3. BC also only had 141 total yards of offense (84 passing, 57 rushing).
Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?
I'm tempted to agree on the former point
But I know nothing about Illinois’s defense. Are they better than the Iowa unit that got shredded by Iowa State (Northern Iowa defended Iowa State better)? Probably.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
93-94 stretch may be more accurate.
In 93 we fielded a solid team (and this team may turn out to be better than the 8-4 I have them projected at and finish 10-2 like in 93). We lost 24-6 to Ohio State and 21-13 to Michigan, first one was by an overall superior team and second one was to a team we should have beat (we held a 10-0 lead early). Then in 94 we go 12-0, win a bunch of blowout games (and pull the starters so early people remember us having a horrid defense) and have some classics along the way like the comeback against Illinois and the game at Michigan where we held them off at the end to prevent a tie. Then went on to win the Rose Bowl 38-20.
I think this is pretty spot on
We’ve got a good team on our hands. There are a few kinks that need to get ironed out, hopefully before Illinois (Illinois? Yeah, Illinois) comes to town. But if we see even modest progress over the coming weeks, I really like our chances in all of our next 9 games.
We’re going to have to start getting on the right side of the turnover margin though.
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by newenglandnittanylion on Sep 10, 2011 9:18 PM EDT reply actions
+1
Very well stated, Rambler. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. There needs to be more sanity, reality, and patience in analysis in general, which is why I liked this so much.
Let's Go State!
Great post Rambler.
I agree with what someone wrote above that I don’t really agree with a lot of things you write on this blog and how above everyone else you make yourself out to be, but this is a great post. You make great points and provide a great case for how fans should be taking this.
I will however say that just because some one decides to be disappointed or frustrated about the loss and wants to see some things change (not the Joe must go crowd), doesn’t mean they are any less a PSU fan. Caring enough to want the best for the program and team is what makes us fans in the first place. Well that and our desire to root for an honorable program that is filled with class.
I do not want Joe to go.
I do not think we will be automatically better off without him. I think he has earned the right to dictate his own departure. I will cherish every game he coaches.
But the logistics of the playcalling DID cost us. They cost us the ability to challenge a fake punt that I don’t think was a first down and changed the game.
AND, they did quit on the team. The coaches punted when the game was within range, and the offense was moving a little bit. They did not believe we could win, and so the team followed suit.
I DO NOT want Joe to leave. But I also don’t want him to quit on the team. Ever. I just can’t get away from the feeling that he did. Would it matter? I don’t know. We probably couldn’t compete with a team that signed 36 more players over 5 years. But I would like to believe that the coaches believe we can play with them. I didn’t get that impression today.
I agree with everything you said in this post. But I think everything you failed to say was also important. And I think we would be doing Joe Paterno a disservice if we accepted less than his team’s best.
BSD Wentworth
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*Accepting Applications
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 10, 2011 10:06 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
Punt
I still can’t believe they punted from Bama’s 40.
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 10, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I can. They punted from the 31 a few years ago at Michigan.
Believe it was the year Michigan lost to Appy St. That call blew my mind.
I agree that is playing it too safe. They need to go for the win more often instead of playing it safe and playing the field position game. The time for that is when you’re ahead, not behind late in the game.
Minnesota 1999
On our last offensive possession we punted from the Gopher 32. And we all know how that turned out. So this has been going on forever.
"You have no idea."
my memory of that game is much different than yours
granted, I had a break with reality after their WR came across the field to catch the deflected ball watched the ball bounce harmlessly to the ground, so I’m probably not the best source of info on that game (nor our glorious wins over Michigan in 2005, or Iowa in 2008).
Still, I do enjoy the 12 MNC trophies that Penn State won since that game and generously let me display at my house.
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 12, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I rec'd this post for trying to temper anger and frustrations
but at the same time it is okay to feel anger and frustration. I did not think we would win this one and by the half I pretty much knew we were not going to stage a come back. It sucks feeling that way and it sucks seeing it come to fruition. I hoped we would be competitive. We were not. I’m sorry, but aside from Bolden making those runs at the end, the rest of the team appeared to be going through the motions. Don’t get me wrong, they played their hearts out, Redd especially, but it’s just not enough.
No one is calling for Joe to go (as far as I have read here) but at the same time I think it would be disrespectful to him if we acquiesce our anger and frustrations and dismiss this one as a game-we-were-supposed-to-lose.
Again, I’m not asking Joe to retire or to be fired and I never will. He deserves all the respect in the world. But just because we respect him does not mean he is beyond criticism or forgiveness. We are a predictable team with good players and knowledgeable coaches yet there’s a problem.
I actually wrote a lot more than this but it’s already reading like a PennLive rant so I apologize and I’ll just cut it short here. Simply put, today was frustrating and I wanted us to put up a fight.
by Mr. Rosewater on Sep 10, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Clarification: I rec'd Rambler's post as tempering frustrations
But rec’d PSUinBoston too since I agree with his sentiments.
by Mr. Rosewater on Sep 10, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The coaches did not quit on the team.
That’s hyperbole. Punting is a bad decision, but it is not indicative of a decision to quit and I’m confident the players would agree.
I did not mean to argue that we got the best performance from this team. Moreover, I quite clearly stated that we got “out-coached” in this game. But the idea that the coaches quit is just the sort of hyperbolic overreaction I refuse to follow.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Punting...
down 17 with 10 minutes to go on the opponents 40 is not playing strategies. It’s throwing in the towel.
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 11, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That's what it looks like to the fans.
But we don’t know what the coaches were really thinking. Would I have punted there? Absolutely not. But, somehow, some way, they thought it was best for the team. It’s really hyperbolic and reactionary to say the coaches quit on the team they love and work hard to grow.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
It's neither...
hyperbolic or reactionary. But I will humor you and amend my statement to say punting, down 17, with about 10 minutes to go, from your opponents 40 yard line, appears to be giving up. They gained 20 yards of field position when, in fact, the greater enemy was time.
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 11, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
A million times yes
I was almost afraid to come here tonight, for fear of what I was going to read.
We got, to borrow a Joe term, “licked” today by a team that was better than us. Period. We can blame the coaches, the game plans, the playcalling, the fumbles … But Alabama was just better than us. I wish that wasn’t the case, but it is. That’s an awfully good team. And there were plenty of positives to be gleaned from today.
I was afraid to open BSD and see what the trolls were saying, to see what the people who pop up after every loss say.
And then I stumble upon this. Well said Rambler.
So glad you wrote all this, especially this part...
My point is this: I see no reason to not be optimistic about this season.
When I got back to my tailgate yesterday evening, most of my tired and disappointed friends looked at me like I had lobsters coming out of my ears when the first words out of my mouth were, “Am I crazy for coming away from that mess with the feeling like this still might be a pretty good season?”
I saw things from the team, on defense, on the offensive line, etc. that lead me to believe we can be pretty darn good by the time we reach our next test in conference play – Iowa at home. And with two road trips against decidedly inferior opponents (Temple and Indiana) along with another scrimmage game at home against Directional Michigan East, there will be plenty of opportunity for the players to settle in, for Rob Bolden to get more comfortable running the offense, and for the entire team to develop the confidence that might prevent some of the nervous mistakes that happened yesterday.
You can’t gloss over what a lousy day Penn State had against Alabama, nor can you say with confidence, based on the results, that the 125th edition of the Nittany Lions won’t end up much like the 124th. Nevertheless, I left the Beav thinking that, with the way our schedule shapes up, this team might be set up to surprise some people.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
I think we can say this team will be better, with confidence.
That defense is incredibly improved.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
What evidence can you point to...
for the statement of the defense being incredibly improved? They slowed down Bama’s run game at times, but put no pressure on a QB making his first start and allowed receivers to run free after giving them a 10-yard cushion.
Can we jump in the DeLorean and travel back to 1994? I miss Kerry, Ki-Jana, Kyle, Bobby, a line that could block, and offensive coaches with a clue....
by PSU Sandman on Sep 11, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I can point to the whole game, friendo.
You cite one facet of the game to refute the entire point, which is that the defense is vastly improved. That doesn’t work. The tackling was miles and miles ahead of last year’s tackling. The angles were great. The safeties are in great position and make a lot of big hits – they play aggressively and will force some turnovers this year. Yes, the pressure was basically nonexistent, but, really, the game made it obvious that our defense is a much better unit. Which, shockingly, is what the coaches said we should expect this year.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
But good, or even great, defense does not a conference champion make (see: 2004). I still need to see much more from the QB position, better offensive execution in general and fewer drops/mistakes before I’ll feel better about this being the type of team that won’t derp away games against opponents like Iowa and Illinois or that can go four quarters with Nebraska and OSU.
As I said, the upcoming three-game stretch provides the perfect opportunity for all of these to emerge, but I need to see it. The offense obviously has talent, but they need to actualize it and put together a few complete games.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
Absolutely, thanks for the measured response.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, all I had yesterday was beer, I forgot to bring the kool-aid...
This team is far from the Penn State I grew up with. Even playing great teams we used to be able to run the ball and get a little push, no more. Is it Anderson’s fault? Probably not, but he did a much better job as the QB coach back in the 90’s. Our QBs show very little development, is that Jay Paterno’s fault? Absolutely. The nepotism Joe shows keeping this POS on the staff is pathetic. Every few years we get lucky and get a recruit that can develop on his own and deliver a decent season, but most of the time we get the prototypical JayPa QB ala Morelli. Inability to read a defense and poor decision making under pressure are all sure signs that Jay has taught them everything he learned as a 4th string QB. I could go on and on about the offense, but when it comes down to it the only way it will ever change is a complete overhaul of the staff, and with Joe still there we know that will never happen.
Now the defense I saw obviously wasn’t the same one you saw. I saw a defense playing off their back foot all day, were they as horrible as last year? No, but they still weren’t proactive as they should be. Now whether that is a problem with player quality, player development, or our easy to read vanilla scheme is a discussion I’ll leave for another day.
The reality is that “WE ARE” no longer “PENN STATE”. Just a sad reflection of a once great team. Years of mediocrity have softened the fanbase and allowed them to accept this game as a good sign, I will never reach that point because I love this school and this team too much to accept good enough.
So the next time you cheer “WE ARE” know that I’m on the other side of the stadium replying “Penn State???” and if you ever feel like singling me out then just yell “WE WERE” and I’ll be the guy bellowing “PENN STATE” at the top of my lungs.
by eternalpessimist on Sep 11, 2011 9:00 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
-10
Perhaps you should stop following a team that falls so short of your standards. Just sit around on Saturdays and reminisce about the “Perfect” Penn State teams that live in your mind. I’ve followed PSU since 1968 and I don’t remember all of those “Perfect” teams, I guess my memory must be failing. You aren’t…
Alea jacta est...
by PSUGuru on Sep 11, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
People always - always - forget that it took crappy years in 1966 and 1967 to get 1968 and 1969.
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
eternal pessimist indeed
I’m willing to bet you’re the sort of fan who was calling for Joe’s head after PSU got blown out by a highly ranked Bama team in 1982, lamenting how things just haven’t been the same since that Sugar Bowl loss in ’79.
Penn State’s got a good team this year. Bama was a better team. Even the immortal Penn State teams in your memory tended to lose when they went up against better teams. I think PSU will be the better team every time they step on the field at least until November.
ACCEPTS THE PAYPAL
Hello, everybody, coach get old, the new coach approaching, click in.
Welcome to http://www.pennlive.com
by newenglandnittanylion on Sep 11, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Prime examples
I’ve never called for Joe to retire, on the contrary I believe he should stay as long as he wants, but the nepotism has to stop. If you believe that they are putting an O-Line on the field that even remotely resembles what we put on the field in a down year prior to 2000 then you’ve drank more of the Kool-Aid than most. Even in our “Down” years prior to the 2000 season we could run the ball against good Defense’s, maybe not enough to win, but we at least looked like we belonged on the same field as the team beating us. Now we looked like ISU playing Penn State.
Perhaps you should have some standards.
by eternalpessimist on Sep 11, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
Nepotism by allowing Jay to coach quarterbacks is TOTALLY the reason why the O-line has been a question mark for the past few years.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Sep 12, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you’re not Penn State that’s fine but most of the rest of were once Penn State, are still Penn State and always will be Penn State.
I proudly responded to We Are with Penn State during the dark years, and will always do. Mostly because this is JUST football. It’s a game people need to realize that. There is far more to Penn State and being Penn State than the result of one football game.
Also I love that people spout off about JayPa sucks just look at Morelli. Yea Morelli never worked out, but guess what nfl coaches tried to straighten him out too and couldn’t do it. You also seeming forgot about two rb/wrs that Jay turned into pretty darn good all big ten qbs.
by psuwresfan on Sep 11, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
I’m sorry that you feel we should accept mediocrity, but just because you’ve come to accept it doesn’t mean that all PSU fans have to. If it makes you feel better I’ll pick up one of the “Mediocrity with Honor” shirts at the next game.
As for Michael Robinson and Daryl Clark we will just have to agree to disagree, you say they succeeded because of Jay, I say they succeeded in spite of Jay.
by eternalpessimist on Sep 11, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I've said it before and I'll say it again
averaging the number of wins we have with the high graduation rates and successful players we’ve had off the field is NOT “mediocrity with honor”. If your definition of “success with honor” is strictly based off of averaging 10+ football wins a season, I think you’re priorities are crooked.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Sep 12, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Right. It’s a just a game. I’d rather we win and I’m happier when we do, but I’ll never understand all the dispair people have over losses. Teams go in cycles.
One thing I like to talk about is that being a long term Phillies fan has given me a good prespective on sports. For years, they were absolutely miserable to watch with seemingly little hope for them to improve, with ownership that didn’t seem to care and a front office without a clue. But now, that seems like a distant memory with them being as good as any team in MLB. But, the reality is that I enjoy them so much more knowing all the poor seasons I lived through and still followed them — that makes the peak so much more fun. And I’m sure it’s different for all the bandwagon fans who just started following the team 4 years ago who only care if the team is being dominant.
I bring this up because being a fan isn’t about watching the team win. It’s about watching the team no matter what happens. Then, when they do win, it’s that much more special because your loyalty is rewarded. PSU will be a dominant team one of these years, until them maybe we are merely decent. It happens. Alabama has had a losing season more recently than us and people are bemoaning that why we can’t be like them. Don’t give up faith.
by Laaaaazzz on Sep 11, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
And thank you
for the new sig. Couldn’t have put it better myself.
Being a fan isn’t about watching the team win. It’s about watching the team no matter what happens.
by Horse N Buggy on Sep 11, 2011 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I started following the team when I started going to Penn State in 2002
I’d like to believe I’m more than a bandwagon fan.
by misdreavus79 on Sep 11, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't accuse people of being bandwagon fans.
What I ask of people is to try to understand what Penn State football is really all about before they take the plunge into being a dedicated follower of the program. I’m not saying you don’t understand Penn State football, but too many of our fans put too much focus on the wins instead of the end product: young men who are ready to contribute excellently in human society.
But there’s a balance between pure on-the-field results and the results of the entire program’s mission. I’d extrapolate more, but my mind isn’t very sharp in the late night. Suffice it to say, I don’t think the balance, the on-the-field results are nearly as bad as many people seem to think.
P.S. Now that I think about it, this really isn’t a response to your post at all. I guess I’m just piggybacking for an opportunity to say something.
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
You're still a chicken.
But I like you.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
And you have to admit that that picture is awesome.
I will use it constantly.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Just wanted to stop in and say thanks.
I wasn’t able to make the trip unfortunately, but by all accounts it sounds like y’all were wonderful hosts to all of our fans that showed up. Playing you guys is great (and not just because we’ve won the last few), but because it’s two epic teams coming together in a celebration of the game. Sure, we all want to win, but I think that no matter what the scoreboard says at the end of the game, these types of contest are a win for the sport in general. Hope you guys go on to great things this year.
Regarding this:
Moreover, while McCarron has really girly, preppy hair (Sorry, have to say it) …
It’s weird, it’s just what our QBs look like typically. We refer to the preppy hair as “Bama bangs.” All of our local QBs of recent vintage have had that haircut (McCarron, Wilson, Croyle.) Greg McElroy, aka “The Ginger Assassin” is from Texas and sidestepped that haircut on his way to a national title.
Seriously though, love this infrequent rivalry with you guys and hopefully we can do it again soon.
by Nico2.0 on Sep 11, 2011 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, Rambler.
Leaving the stadium yesterday, I was one of those “sad, but resigned” fans that Chris mentioned in the post-game open thread, except I stayed until the bitter end. Reading your post here has reminded me of the many positive lessons from this game which I had overlooked, specifically the improvement in pass protection and the play of the defense.
However, I was particularly disappointed by the way that we were out-coached. I didn’t have a general issue with the playcalling, just a few specific ones. Did we really test the big ‘Bama LB’s with quick, short passes over the middle? It didn’t seem so, but I could be wrong. More importantly, I agree with PSUinBOSSton that punting on 4th and 6, from your opponent’s 40, at home, with a veteran team and a tired defense is beyond a simple "mistake"or being “out-coached,” as you put it. You may not agree, but what you likely didn’t see on TV was the way the team reacted when the punt was called in. Our players were visibly upset, then dejected. Speculation, but to me it appeared more emotional than a standard “dang, coach wouldn’t go for it on 4th down” reaction.
I agree with you on the QB situation — hopefully this game ends the QB carousel. IF we choose one QB, I could see the number of drops reducing and our timing improving due to better chemistry between QB and WR. For the record I prefer Bolden, however, even Bolden’s upside is limited by the fact that he is still locking onto his first read, even when he has time (McGloin is doing the exact same). If someone DVR’d the game and can disprove this, please do so, and set my mind at ease. Otherwise, it won’t matter if the RB’s pick up all the blitzers and the OL blocks all day, because Bolden will still throw to his first read, even if covered. I’m not familiar with the specifics of QB coaching, but hopefully this can be remedied.
On defense, it’s disappointing that we can’t seem to get consistent pressure on the QB, since the Cover-3 is so dependent upon pressuring the QB. Maybe our secondary is good enough, that intermittent pressure is sufficient…or maybe ‘Bama didn’t have to challenge us with the pass since they led for the lion share of the game…we’ll find out more if we can get a lead on Iowa.
Finally, the turnovers and “bad breaks”. Football is a game of inches to be sure, but bad breaks and turnovers are not always random. Case(s) in point:
- The bad spot on the fake ‘Bama punt is a bad break, sure, but as others mentioned this was preventable if we could’ve challenged the play. That falls on the coaches for burning all 3 timeouts in the first 3 min of the game.
- The Szcerba fumble. That’s 2 fumbles in 2 games for him. Random bad breaks, or could it also be a pattern of failure to secure the ball (execution / coaching)? Maybe too early to tell.
- The Devon Smith fumble. Excellent play call, but…ugh. From where I sat it looked like he was carrying the ball like a loaf of bread and he got clocked. Again, execution / coaching…and I’m still not sure how I feel about a guy 5’-6" 160 lb running into 2 ’Bama tacklers.
In even more general terms, the team winning the game is awarded the blessing of playing ball control. Playing with the lead for most of the game, ’Bama could afford to run Richardson and Lacy downhill, and take a calculated shot down the field once in a while. Meanwhile, PSU has to take more risks. Sometimes, to quote Harvey Dent, “you make your own luck.”
In summary, thanks again Rambler for the effort you put into this post. I agree this team is improved over last year, and the B1G is down, so I still stand by my prediction of 9-3. I see us losing to Wisky, and I think this team is still mistake-prone to the degree that we will lose a 3rd somewhere along the line (which we really should win). I just can’t shake the disappointment I feel about the program in general. I agree 100% with PSUinBOSSton’s sentiments on Joe above. In the end, this results in me supporting the program (and Joe), but expecting losses in big games therefore walking out and resigned.
by coachKofPA on Sep 11, 2011 11:00 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’m still not sure how I feel about a guy 5’-6" 160 lb running into 2 ’Bama tacklers
You have to look at it through JoePa’s eyes, though, and then you’ll realize that Devon appears like a freakish hulk, destroyer of bones and souls.
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 12, 2011 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I'm with you Rambler in regards to
not writing this team off until I see a few more games. HOWEVER, I am not ready to anoint Alabama either. Let’s see both teams play a few more times. I think someone who can spread the field a little will be able to move the ball on them no problem.
Now, its curious how you decide not to address the coaching staff, which has become an embarrassment and a national punchline. What I have been saying for a couple years now can now be seen by everyone watching the games….having multiple coordinators directly affects the ability to get plays in on time. People wanna put it on Bolden….NO….he’s a young QB, get the plays in quicker. I’ve never seen a football team….at ANY level… call three timeouts in the first drive. Embarrassing, unprofessional, undisciplined, UNHEARD OF!!! Some people get “fired up” seeing Joe rambling and waving his cane at a pep rally, I don’t.
Also, I would not be so kind in the DE grades….we got virtually no pressure against a set of freshman and sophomore offensive tackles.
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
H, I think you need to calm down a bit.
You make some very salient points here, but you also throw in some hyperbole that hurts your cause. In order:
1) National punchline? Where are you getting this from? If people want to mock a team whose worst record in the last several years was 7-6, let them. This coaching staff is not performing on the level of Alabama, but it is nowhere near an embarrassment. That’s hyperbolic and it totally ignores real embarrassments like Charlie Weis at Notre Dame or Rich Rodriguez at Michigan. This team is absolutely improved from last year; that’s not embarrassing.
2) I don’t think Paterno was at all rambling in that speech. Perhaps you say that because it was hard to hear him? I don’t know, but I could understand enough to comprehend what he was trying to do. Paterno is not a crazy old man, and I think you state what you stated there out of a sense of frustration and not one of reason.
Now, I knew someone would ask me about the coaching staff. I didn’t address it originally in the post because I wanted to focus more on what I saw on the field. I’m a fan. I don’t really know what’s happening on the sidelines and I can’t even judge what I see on the field with truly exceptional accuracy. So I didn’t focus on the coaches
But I did say they were out-coached. Anyone can see that. I got over the timeouts pretty quickly, but I was simply dumbfounded when it happened. I think the play-calling was good on offense and I have no complaints with the defensive gameplan (People are going to complain about Bradley, but sometimes there’s not a whole lot he can do). The play-calling system we have is bad, obviously. But it’s not a national embarrassment either. Still, bad is bad, and somehow, it’s got to be improved. And I’m not sure we can say with certainty that it won’t be improved.
Why? We have seen from Paterno these last six years a great ability to improvise, adapt, and overcome. This shouldn’t surprise us just because he’s old. He’s been making necessary changes since before the 1967 or ‘68 season when he spent the entire spring in his loft creating a defensive system. Coming into this year, we’ve seen a revitalized and excited group of players and coaches. We’ve had a great recruiting class. We read about the new vigor of sorts in the media and I feel we saw it confirmed with the intensity the players showed yesterday. There are a lot of kinks to work out with this team, but so far, they don’t appear great enough to prove there’s any chance this won’t be a good football team.
For instance, the most criticized portion of our staff is the offensive line staff. And what did we see yesterday? For the most part, we saw exceeded expectations, unless there’s someone out there who actually thought we would be able to run the ball. This is from a unit that looked pretty shaky and scary against a cupcake. So if the most criticized portion of our staff can prepare their players to do an excellent job against one of the best defenses in the country, then why can’t the rest of the staff do well too?
If it looks I’m trying to separate the “We can’t compete on an elite level” argument from the “How good are we going to be this year?” argument, well, that is what I’m doing. Against the schedule we face and with the staff and talented players we have (I think this staff has proven they are, all in all, good but not great), I don’t see any reason for true pessimism. 10-2 is my prediction right now.
If you want to argue about the national status of the program, feel free. But that wasn’t the point of this post.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
gotcha
and in fairness, nothing I saw yesterday surprised me or was unexpected (save for the first drive timeout debacle)
my comment could have as well been written last week, last summer, or last season
the punchline comment is basically in response to the dozens of times i’ve been asked “when is Joe gonna retire?” “can joe seriously relate to these guys?” and herbstreit et al suppressing laughter when they cut away from clips of the old man with his cane. yeah, we shouldn’t care about the national media, and i don’t for the most part, but not having a more viable “face of the franchise” takes an effect after a while. and yes, I do think those effects equate to wins and losses. we have had a successful W-L pct since ’04…but I think it could be better with a more sound regime top to bottom.
and I am gonna try and calm down a bit…I’m gonna be a fan, enjoy (and hopefully attend) whatever medium bowls we go to, and wait for The Change.
ps…you say Joe has made the necessary changes since "67 or ‘68…name one coach who has been fired in that time span. joe’s loyalty (a great strength) can also be a weakness
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
Ok, I understand you.
I would like to respond, however, your postscript: Brother, I won’t deny that Joe’s loyalty is often a weakness, but that doesn’t respond to what I said about Joe’s demonstrated ability, in his old age, to continue improvising.
Hang in there. Have a nice day too.
"I hope we're not looking past Alabama to Temple the next Saturday." - Jack Ham
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
of all the things i distrust about college football commentary
it is the tendency to reduce everything to hyperbole. “you lost thus you must suck” is a statement of such gaping stupidity that to even recognize it by arguing against it is to give it far too much credit. still, it’s the parlance of the nattering nabobs we rely on information about this glorious game so we gotta deal with it.
i disagree with readingrambler on many points but not in the thrust of the argument he presents here. i didn’t say “every team is beatable” on the bsd podcast because i was poor mouthing – i said it because it is true. conversely, that penn state did not do that against alabama last weekend doesn’t imply they are not able to win. this is the most basic logical fallacy you can commit and there isn’t a shred of evidence to back it up.
we know alabama has a ton of talent. we know that alabama has a hell of a lot of motivation. and we know there are a bazilion historical factoids lingering around this rivalry that major media have festooned their coverage with like cheap christmas lights from CVS pharmacy on a plastic tree that won’t survive past the death of your advent calendar.
just drill down a bit into the stat sheet from saturday and there’s a lot to learn. one thing is the fact that all the breaks went alabama’s way actually is quantifiable.
for example. everyone is praising aj mccarron’s poise and leadership and follicles when point in fact only one stat really matters going forward, interceptions. as in he had none. that is the most promising thing going forward and, most likely, the most devastating thing he could do to penn state last saturday.
but that wasn’t the whole story of turnovers. you should look at the number of fumbles in this game and the last one. in 2010 alabama had one fumble and lost it to psu. you guys had three and only lost one.
so, basically, the ball was up for grabs four times and the nittany lions picked it up three. this year alabama had no fumbles and psu had two which they lost. this isn’t luck at work, folks. it’s the law of averages. and we were on the unholy end of it last season.
i put together the news roundup for roll bama roll today and i saw a lot of stories talking about penn state’s “identity” and “poise” and “swagger.” all of which i would bet even money coach paterno thinks is a bunch of hooey (and coach saban would say he doesn’t have time for)
coach paterno knows, and has shown repeatedly in his past, that if you want to be the best, you play the best. and even if you are out manned and out gunned you bring everything you’ve got. the result isn’t any kind of moral victory, that’s a free lesson on how to beat the other sad bastards who don’t have the fucking balls to dig deep and give what it takes. that’s going to matter a lot when y’all hit the heart of the conference schedule.
coach paterno is right. losing is the worst thing in the world. and if this loss isn’t a lesson on how to keep from happening again this season… well then that’s the worst possible outcome of all.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
by kleph on Sep 11, 2011 10:35 PM EDT reply actions 11 recs
Thanks, kleph.
Very good post.
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
ditto
rec’d
except, I hate the stats argument…“when you look at the numbers, these teams are pretty close”….only one stat matters….wins
example, i’m watching the dallas-jets game right now and Romo just threw what looks like to be a game costing inter….I haven’t been following the stats thru the whole game, but Romo may have lit it up and might be statistically better than sanchez, but it doesn’t matter….he puked up the game costing interception when it mattered.
folks wanted to compare mcgloin and bolden’s stats from last year and say they were equal figures under center….they weren’t. sabermetrics don’t carry to football
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
sure, i agree that wins are the most important "stat"
but i’m also of the belief that programs like penn state and alabama are about a hell of a lot more than just picking up a given win on any particular saturday. my understanding is these are programs with a history and culture of winning with regularity. and they strive at finding ways to sustain that level of excellence.
auburn might be hunky dory with cashing in the chips for a crystal football at the possible cost of a .500 season to follow. we’re not. and i don’t believe that’s the mindset at penn state. every team will suffer a loss. but if you feel willing to chalk it up to fate and sneer at looking at the ugly details, you’ve just built the foundation of your next loss.
if you want to build something that wins with regularity, you do well to look at those more “mundane” numbers and try to discern the aspects of your approach that work and what doesn’t. chalking it up to “swagger” or some other nonsense is what teams do that get lucky on one week and then screw the pooch against the conference doormat the next.
dismissing statistics is like throwing the phillips screwdriver out of your toolbox because you think its tip looks tacky. numbers aren’t a magical incantation that produce wins on their own, they are just one more tool you use to be a winner. and winners use every tool they can find to increase their possibility of victory.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
I do sometimes wonder what I'd prefer more
consistent 10-2 seasons, year in and year out, never actually winning or playing for the MNC game
or
mediocre years, followed by the crystal football, followed by more mediocre years.
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 12, 2011 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
that's a nonsensical response
if you focus on winning as many games as possible on the schedule, the championships will follow. but, and here’s the tricky part, you cannot plan to win national championships.
the list of goals coach saban set out every year for each alabama team does not include the BCS National Championship for one very good reason – it is not a goal the team can attain on its own. you can win every single game of the season and still get knocked out of consideration due to the other forces at work in determining who goes to the title game.
when you make goals and intend on learning from any reasons you fall short of them, it is wise to make ones you can properly evaluate your performance. there’s just too much random data in the evaluation process for the MNC.
what you can focus on and earn by your own efforts is a conference championship. and, even if you suffer a loss, you can keep yourself working on reaching that through the different challenges remaining on the schedule. and this is what is reflected in the team’s goals.
where you jibe is flat out wrong is in assuming the years without a championship are mediocre. the point here is to have consistently very good years and make the mediocre ones the anomaly. achieve that and the likelihood of incurring the national championship any given year increases substantially.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
by kleph on Sep 12, 2011 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don't think
he was suggesting that the players and/or coaches should pick one of those options as a goal. I believe it was more akin what he’d rather experience as a fan, a passive participant with no real influence on the outcome.
As an Eagles fan, I have this conversation all the time – who has the better fan experience over the last decade, Philly fans or, say, Buccaneers fans? Eagles fans got to watch a consistently relevant team that made the post-season nearly every year, won playoffs games and division titles, and never brought home a Lombardi. TB fans got a Super Bowl win along with several seasons when their team never really mattered. Just like Eagles fans have been left to wonder what it’s like to watch a Super Bowl winner, an entire generation of PSU fans can only imagine the experience of bringing home the crystal football. I took JuggerNitt’s post as more musing over which of those two options would really have the greater payoff.
I don’t disagree with any of your assertions about realistic goals or how you achieve the MNC.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
the comparative case for alabama fans
is the stretch between 1971 and 1981.
over that decade the crimson tide’s worst season was 1976 when they lost three games. they were 11-1 no less than five times. alabama lost just three conference games in that period but there was only one undefeated season and just three national championships to show for the effort.
would we prefer to go back to that level of dominance once again? you bet your sweet ass we would.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
I agree with this.
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 12, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
"sabermetrics don't carry to football"
sure they do, you just need to measure the right things, and have a big enough sample size. Of course, doing both of those things is pretty problematic (not to mention how different teams employ different systems and if you were a QB for Texas Tech you may break records left and right, but still suck)
Just like sabermetrics in baseball realized that batting average kinda sucks at measuring a batters productivity, and something like OPS is much better at that task, football stats need a major overhaul into something that has tangible effects on the outcome of a game (though, again, sample size poses a problem)
Re: Bolden vs McGloin last year, the only “stat” that mattered to me were the # of interceptable balls. I sorta wish I had the time and ability to chart through (similar to what JayPa supposedly does during practice) all of the passes made by the different QBs (and really all the plays by all the players), and not just chart the outcome, but the “likely” outcome of each play.
By that I mean, if you have 2 QBs, and say each of them threw 20 passes.
QB1 goes 14/20 with 2 TDs and 0 INT
QB2 goes 9/20 with 0 TDs and 1 INT
Using those stats, QB1 clearly looks better, but say you actually charted all of the plays, and realize that QB1 made those 14 completions, but had relatively easy passes on them, and got lucky throwing his TDs into triple coverage, meanwhile of his 6 incompletions, 3 were dropped by defenders, and the other 3 were 10 yards away from the nearest WR. And then you look and see that QB2 actually threw 16 very catchable balls, but the WRs dropped them, including a couple in the endzone, and the one INT was really a WR who tipped/bobbled a ball into the hands of a DB. And then you also realize that QB1 was facing terrible defenses, while QB2 actually played against teams with a pulse.
Hopefully all of this is moot now, though, as it looked like Bolden, while playing like crap, still looks like he took a huge lead in the QB derby.
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 12, 2011 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
"interceptable balls"
is subjective, and always will come down to someone determining what is an interceptable ball.
It was just frustrating to see QB comparisons form last year showing that the QB’s were equal, I know what I saw.
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
no worries
it irritates me that the cheap mythologizing of the contest has not only superseded any reasonable analysis of the game it’s also eroded any real understanding of the historical precedents at work here.
in my case, that’s a huge problem. i still firmly believe this is an alabama team that has a lot of work to do. but when the best “analysis” i can get is “penn state isn’t an elite team” i’m pretty much SOL. i need people to be a bit more objective and gimlet eyed when looking at what transpired last saturday. i appreciate your post as a call for that.
Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All
by kleph on Sep 11, 2011 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If gimlet-eyed is anything like my condition after the last time I got drunk off of gimlets
then my gimlet-eyed analysis of the game is that you guys had an unfair advantage with all those extra pink elephants.
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 12, 2011 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I keep coming back to Success with Honor
You can’t have it if you are not successful or honorable. We haven’t had both sides of the equation in a VERY long time.
I’m grown quite tired of walking out to my car after big games, pissed off.
This staff isn’t good (or elite) and hasn’t been in quite some time (the Ws and Ls prove that). The sad part is I’ve come to expect the let downs, hence I don’t get as pissed off as I used to.
I typically define three 11 win seasons in the space of five seasons as "success"
But to each his own.
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
depends on your measurable
the vast majority of those wins were against scrubs.
to be the best, you have to beat the best
…and we haven’t done that in quite some time
by ghostofbrd119 on Sep 11, 2011 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
This is not good arguing.
In your first sentence, you casually dismiss the fact that last year’s soon-to-be-vacated national champion played, by your standards (If, by your reasoning, conference opponents from the Big Ten are scrubs, then Georgia and Kentucky were certainly scrubs last year), mostly scrubs. In a given year, each of the top 10 teams do not play a murderer’s row. Generally speaking, those from a major conference play several average teams, between three to five cupcakes, and three or four very good teams. Moreover, this is still college football. Appalachian State was a scrub until they blocked Michigan’s field goal.
Finally, your last sentence is a straw man, regardless of whether it’s true or not (The truth therein is probably very subjective anyway).
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 11, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
of course each team does not play a top ten team each week
but the fact remains, and has been reported quite often this weekend, that PSU underperforms against top 10 teams and against ranked teams in general.
I believe the figure was 1-8 against top 12 ranked opponents since 2006 and 6-12 against the top 25.
I find it interesting that instead of addressing the general points of my comment, you use what I would consider red herrings as a response.
I appreciate your perspective, but the numbers don’t lie.
by ghostofbrd119 on Sep 11, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's bring Alabama's numbers since 2006
and see how they fare in comparison.
by misdreavus79 on Sep 11, 2011 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
well, I think Alabama actually has really good numbers in that regard
but yes, Penn State’s record against the top 5/10/25 without a comparison of the average record against those types of teams, and also a snapshot of other “elite” teams against that quality of opponent, is mostly useless. I feel we are likely underperforming, but I bet that is the sentiment of all but a few teams.
Additionally, are we considering ranking at the time of the game, or at the conclusion of the season? People usually just use the former (since it is easier to directly determine), but it is often lacking (what do you mean, pre-season rankings are junk? I’m shocked!)
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 12, 2011 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions
It would also be nice to see, on the flip side
who these teams lost to during that time
by misdreavus79 on Sep 12, 2011 6:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I suppose it would be interesting to see both
For instance, when we dominated Nebraska in 2002 and Arizona in 1999, both of those teams were top ten (if memory serves me correctly) but both finished outside the top 25.
by ghostofbrd119 on Sep 12, 2011 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Ask, and ye shall receive.
I only looked at AP rankings, and used the rankings at the time the game was played. I did not account for vacated wins, and just looked at the results on the field.
In 2006, Alabama went 0-4 against the AP top 25, and 0-2 against the AP top 10.
In 2007, Alabama went 2-3 against the top 25, 0-1 against the top 10.
In 2008, Alabama went 3-2 against the top 25, 2-2 against the top 10.
In 2009, Alabama went 6-0 against the top 25, 4-0 against the top 10.
In 2010, Alabama went 5-3 against the top 25, 3-2 against the top 10.
In 2011 to date, Alabama has gone 1-0 against the top 25, 0-0 against the top 10.
So, since 2006, Alabama has gone 17-12 against the top 25, 9-7 against the top 10.
I checked the seasons and did the math the old-fashioned way, so I apologize for any mistakes.
Thirteen.
I'm not sure you know what a red herring is.
In any event, I do not expect quality arguing from someone who uses red herrings to avoid the fact that Penn State is a successful program, all the while preparing to accuse me of using tactics designed to prevent any actual argument.
You’re not arguing. You’re bickering.
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 12, 2011 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure I do
and by the way, I love sour patch kids.
How do you measure success? If it is beating FCS and the middling programs in FBS and the Big Ten, then yes, we are successful.
However, that is not how I measure success. I have higher standards.
Shame your expectations for “arguing” are higher than those of the football program.
by ghostofbrd119 on Sep 12, 2011 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
what then would be your definition of success with honor?
because I’m fairly sure your measurables would not be met by any team.
Fire Dan Snyder
Don't get into this argument with brd
You won’t win and he’ll just try and drag you down to his level of stupid
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Sep 12, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right.
But when he makes it that easy to respond, I will.
I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 12, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
that's like saying you're so F'in dense you can't comprehend stupid
when you want to talk facts, and not personal attacks, let me know
by ghostofbrd119 on Sep 12, 2011 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Good Post
I enjoy your views even when I don’t agree with them. Keep up the good work!
by archerbullseye on Sep 11, 2011 10:55 PM EDT reply actions
I came away from this game pretty satisfied
I was hoping the game would be closer, and wanted to win it. but I didn’t feel like we got run out of the stadium this year. There are a lot of good things to take away from this game and Rambler summed them up pretty nicely. I remain optimistic for the rest of the season.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Sep 12, 2011 12:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, Rambler
I’m being completely honest with you, I was typing a comment in another thread 5 minutes ago where I was going to say that I was completely fed up with the negativity, coach-bashing, and doom and gloom of >90% of what was written since Saturday night, and that I was going to take a break from BSD at the recommendation of hbeach. This post got rec’d to the top pretty quickly, so I missed it, and what was left in the fan posts was pretty much nothing but the type of absolute drivel that comes out after every loss from the haters, self-loathers, and phonies that say they bleed blue and white yet can’t find a positive thing to say about the team.
I don’t want this to turn into a huge “back in the day” comment (btw, I’m 23 so ‘back in the day’ wasn’t all that long ago, lol), but my first experience with a love for PSU football was during my second game ever when I was in 4th grade for the 1997 Ohio State game (I know we won, but I might have the year wrong). I’ve told this story on here before, but I was, and still am to an extent an extremely, painfully shy person, but during that game something clicked in me: I was part of a family of 100,000 people I didn’t know, but where I could scream at the top of my little lungs, and wasn’t afraid to do it in front of other people. I belonged there.
I’m sure there were negative people there in 1997, but in the past few years, especially with the rise of internet communities of fans, and my reading and commenting on BSD, it saddens me to realize that I don’t feel that sense of family anymore (and maybe that’s just me getting older and less naive). But it seems like every time we lose one game, you would think Joe Paterno just stabbed people’s puppies. We get 8 posts about how Joe is destroying the program and doesn’t know what the fuck he’s doing anymore. We’re talking about not only the greatest coach in college football, but one of the most admirable, honorable, funny, and legendary figures in the country. We have another post freaking out over the word ‘OR’ being on this weeks depth chart. A document that has absolutely no significance on the outcome or the direction that a football game goes (assuming they don’t start the third string people ahead of the first, but you get my drift).
Anyway, this post is really what I needed to see and read on BSD this week, but never did amidst the sea of negativity on nearly every post. There could be one in the works, but I don’t even think I saw a front page post that pointed out what positives we could take from the game. And when positive things were mentioned, they were buried in between negatives like they should be glanced over so that you don’t miss what Penn State did that was absolutely unforgivable, atrocious, and was grounds for an entire coaching staff dismissal.
So in an immensely roundabout way of saying it, I just wanted to thank you for doing what nobody else really seemed to give a shit to want to do at any point so far since Saturday and look on the bright side of life for a change. I was over that loss by the time I got back to my parent’s tailgate, because I saw positives too. Against one of the top teams in the country, we lost, but we held our ground. And if no one else was able to see the good with the bad, I just feel sorry for them. So thanks.
"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno
by dawsonPSU10 on Sep 13, 2011 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
Well said, Dawson.
But I consider this my BSD/Penn State family. You don’t always get a long with or agree with them, but they’re family nevertheless.
"This is BSD, the crazy stirs itself," dwf5095
Follow @Paige2PSU
Losing to Alabama
I wonder what fans were saying when PSU got destroyed by Alabama 42-21 in 1982? Did they jump off the cliff back then?
The fans I knew (including me) all said,
“Well, sh*t, there goes this season.” They were coming off two 11-1 seasons in ‘77 and ’78, a down year in ’79 and two 10-2 seasons in ’80 and ’81. So it was conceivable ’82 would be a down year. But two weeks prior they had come from behind to beat the #2 team in the country, Nebraska, in the first night game in Beaver Stadium (with the funky temporary lighting on the east side of the field) and they had a week off to get ready for Bama, a team they had lost to 3 times in the previous 7 seasons. So everybody was psyched this could be the year. Super psyched. And then the punter kicked the ball into the blocker and the rest of the game was a blur. Freakin’ Bear won again.
Fast forward about ten weeks. My future wife and I are standing in line at Pat O’Briens (still have the glasses). We turn around to discover a well-dressed middle-aged couple in full Bama regalia right behind us. I said, “Hey, how are ya? Don’t you guys hate Georgia? Why are you here?” And the husband responded something to the effect of, “Y’all have any i-dee-a what Bowl we are in?” The light went on. Enuf said.
Postscript – within a month, no more Bear. RIP
*
by Smee on Sep 13, 2011 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
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