Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

And Don't Splash The Pot: Penn State Against Top 10 Teams Since 2006

[A note for the weary: some videos may be modestly NSFW.]


 

Success in big games will always be the holy grail of program status, and they're also an easy talking point during the flame out that follows hapless big stage losses in every corner of the internet.  And true to form, it's what we have here when Penn State loses yet another game against a highly ranked team, this time in particularly frustrating fashion.

But before we talk about our feelings, it's worthwhile to actually see what this house is built out of.

The perception: Penn State shows up to big games timid, with a decidedly zero-chances game plan, with the intentions of performing with perfect execution -- a rare event that often leads to uninteresting semi-blow outs.

The reality: Penn State's results against Top 10 teams since 2006, judged by final score as well as offensive, non-garbage time production (all rankings are year end finals, notes on garbage time after the jump):

Psu-top-10_medium

 

Star-divide

And against all ranked teams -- plus a very talented 2010 Iowa that curiously crumbled well after their date with PSU for good measure:

Psu-top-25-plusiowa_medium

A note on judgement calls: I normally make sure to lean all assumptions about data in the opposite direction of the point I'm trying to make -- it's just good practice and eliminates any potential distracting points, but frankly PSU doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt here and so they're not getting it. I loved watching Clark play and I'm not discounting the effort and cultural impact on the program when he never said die, but I'm not buying for a second that USC cared more about the final seven minutes of a Rose Bowl they openly said they didn't want to play in than, say, orcestrated dancing or broing it out in a totally mature way at the expense of sideline reporters. Michigan State isn't in the same universe, but they weren't playing for style points, needed a rare shared championship, and all most certainly had switched to Ride It Out mode mentally.

Update: It looks like I missed some teams that snuck back into the bottom of the Top 25.  Tennessee finished 25th in 2006, Wisconsin finished 24th in 2007, and Oregon State improved tremendously in 2008, beating USC but struggling to close out the deal -- still a very respectable 18th. The focus of this post is on offense in Top 10 games, but in the spirit of being complete, the Top 25 non-garbage average is actually 12.6 with the addition of those teams. 

The gory details.

Notre Dame 2006 - L 41-17
Quinn played well. Morelli had an early, damning turnover then gave up another one in the third for a touchdown that put the game well out of hand. Weis was 4 for 4 on 4th downs calls, which kept the PSU defense on the field, and the offense was completely absent.

Ohio State 2006 - L 28-6
Here are Penn State's first nine possessions, which are almost too terrible to believe: 3&Punt, Interception, 3&Punt, 3&Punt, 3&Punt, 3&Punt, Field Goal, Field Goal Missed, 3&Punt , 3&Punt. Because the universe is a funny place, Penn State was still somehow within a touchdown with under three minutes to play. They never did score one though, and instead we got The Grand Morelli Collapse.

Michigan 2006 - L 17-10
Penn State was held under 200 yards, had negative rushing yards on 25 attempts and predictably gave up eight sacks after establishing the anti-run. This also gave Michigan blogs the TP Fumble photo - Morelli laying out motionless after absorbing an uncalled helmet-to-helmet shot from a 6' 6", 320 pound future NFLer. Clark took his first real snaps, but the quarterback were interchangeable as the offensive line dramatically limited the playbook.

Wisconsin 2006 - L 13-3
The Paterno injury game, which overshadowed the results but proved that the richer members of the Wisconsin fanbase are not, in fact, too drunk to realize what's going on around them. That was coincidentally a pivotal moment in the game - a dropped interception right after Paterno went down would have been a pick six, instead Scorotto muffed the punt and Wisconsin recovered on the PSU 20 and effectively ended the game.

Penn State's offense averaged just 1.7 ypc and had six drives of five yards or less. End result is 201 yards of offense and the all to familiar, big game median score of 3.

Michigan 2007 - L 14-9
This is probably the most frustrating of all these losses, in large part because Michigan was pretty terrible at the time, was starting a shaky backup named Ryan Mallett, and Penn State apparently (so the legend goes) dialed back a more aggressive gameplan at the 11th hour. Morelli fumbled on the second drive of the game at the Michigan 10 and spotted the Wolverines an early touchdown that should have never been. Then, with a chance to take the lead, Austin Scott gave it away on the Michigan 9.

250px-penn_state_morelli_handoff_to_scott_crop_medium

The gameplan was ruined with such major mistakes, and Michigan found their soon to be patented Hart-behind-Long routine which they ran about 957 times in a row to put the game away.

Ohio State 2007 - L 37-17
This game was over halfway through the second quarter, although Ohio State gained 453 total yards anyway. Penn State managed to average less yards per completed pass than per run and Morelli was the team's second leading rusher -- never a good thing.

OSU 2008 - W 13-6
Simple formula: have zero yards in penalties, zero turnover and bet that the game turns on a colossal mistake by the other team. Otherwise, you lose.

20081026pdpsu1025d_330_medium

Iowa 2008 - L 24-23
I don't want to talk about it. That wasn't pass interference and Paterno didn't help with the whole space heater thing.

USC 2008 ('09 Bowl) - L 38-24
"Overwhelmed from the start..." PSU had no answer for Sanchez, and I can't even blame them. He played the game of his life on his way to being a very good NFL quarterback. Clark gave a valid effort at the end but some key turnovers and an absolute collapse at the end of the second half - 14 points in the last 1:30 - are way too much to overcome against a defense that sent so many players to the NFL.

Ohio State 2009 - L 24-7
Pryor's "homecoming," and another ho-hum OSU game. Just 201 yards of offense - not the first time we've seen that number - no turnovers from OSU and, after an early, impressive long drive lead by Clark, only one drive of more than six plays and only two of more than 16 yards.

Iowa 2009 - L 21-10
The funny thing about this game is that Iowa was trying to lose this one themselves by not playing any offense, but were able to overcome with playmaking. Penn State was winning this game in the fourth quarter somehow, despite having twice as many drives of negative yards as ones that moved forward.

Then, of course, the blocked punt for a touchdown, followed by Turnoverpalooza (four total) and a game that felt unwinnable early despite the dragged out lead.

Alabama 2010 - L 24-3
Probably Bolden's best game of the year, but he was undone in the redzone and Penn State had a very rare down year on defense. They looked like the Bama JV team trying to tackle downhill runners, so it might not have mattered that PSU had four turnovers and couldn't get Royster going (3.6 ypc).

LSU 2009 ('10 Bowl) - W 19-17
No useful data available, although a rare moment when an offensive player from Penn State showed effective moxie in a big game.

Capital_one_bowl_penn_state_v_lsu_35rwgqizntql_medium

Iowa 2010 - L 24-3
Penn State was outgained 148 to 1 in the first quarter, Stanzi played very well and The Perfect Plan was undone by a true freshman's interception (can't have those with this game plan, not even from 18-year-olds) and an inability to convert on 3rd down. Penn State also left some points on the field when they failed to convert a 4th & Goal on the 1 -- a momentum killer, but probably too little, too late anyway.

Ohio State 2010 - L 38-14
I was at this game and watched the OSU fans boo their team off the field down 14-3 at halftime. Then the ugly side of Moxie showed up, both times in the same corner as my seats, and some old woman Buckeye fan kept putting the hood of my sweatshirt over my head, which was weird.

Pryor needed to throw just 13 passes (much to the delight of Tressel, I'm sure), Herron averaged nine per carry, and the offense went three-and-out five consecutive times to end the game.

Michigan State 2010 - L 28-22
Penn State was unfortunately outmatched in this game, but Michigan State was also more than beatable. A slow offense once again doomed the team, with six punts in a row after the opening drive led to a field goal. The late rally showed character but probably snuck up on MSU more than anything - still, a rare moment of credit is due to McGloin for making it happen, although qualified with the understanding that you need to start games like that and cut your defense some slack rather than turning it on just after the point where such a comeback is largely irrelevant.

Alabama 2011 - L 27-11
We've got you covered here.

Are We Having Fun Yet?


And about that title: Always Check, check, check!!!


The argument here is not that the Perfect Game strategy doesn't work. It does, and Ohio State 2008 is proof. There are problems, though, and most specifically: Penn State rarely plays perfect. They may limit penalties, even in blowouts, but they rarely limit turnovers and almost never get the big play (Pryor fumble, LSU 2-minute drill, elusive special teams touchdown or defensive score).  More importantly, you ensure you have no answer if the other team comes out swinging, taking the game out of your hands as early as the second quarter and boring the crap out of your fans in the process.

Some pretty glaring themes:

  • First, the absolutely unavoidable average figure: just over seven meaningful points -- seven! -- per game against Top 10 teams in the last 5+ years. Of all the information we have, this is the most damning.  Look at past results for conference championships, major bowl games and what it takes to win All The Tostitos and tell me how many times you can get out of town with 7.5 points and a trophy of any consequence. 
  • That number isn't much better when you expand it to the Top 25.
  • While penalty yards are typically pretty low, here's a complete list of games mentioned above in when Penn State had zero turnovers: 2008 OSU, 2009 ('10) LSU.  That's it, out of 17 tries.  We're using a strategy that demands perfect football, and we achieve the first and most significant criteria -- zero turnovers -- two times out of seventeen.
  • We have an unreasonably high level of expected defensive efficiency, and fortunately for us we get what we hope for in the vast majority of non-Top 10 games.  But look at the list of BCS championship games: Penn State's average points allowed is right around 24 points, which the national champion has given up four times.  More telling, the game's loser gave up more than that to the eventual champion nine times in the thirteen games of the platform.  It suggests that PSUs defense is build to hold up under the pressure at the top.  

...

The hope that lessons are being learned and that things will change is probably a bleak one.  This attitude apparently worked in the ‘80s, and is also largely to blame now because is lead to such success for Paterno for so long. It also worked in Rounders, which was a made up story about beating the odds with a conservative approach, in fantastic fashion, when time is running out -- almost certainly overstated in this metaphor, but also probably not that far off.

Maybe we just haven't seen the vindication scene yet, or maybe beating the odds is such a good story because it by definition happens so rarely, which seems to be the plot so far.

Comment 266 comments  |  6 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Why are you doing this to me so soon

not only am I trying to move on from this past week I’ve been trying to move on from all those losses for the bast 5 years.

"That's why you don't play! 'Cuz you're no good!" -Joe Paterno

by pmm156 on Sep 13, 2011 12:22 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Why is the cut off 2006?

Is it to purposely avoid 2005? I’d ask the same quesiton if you went with 2005 and ignored 2004.

Also, why teams that ended up top 10 vs. teams that were top 10 at the time (I actually agree with this methodology, but, again, I’m curious as to how you arrived at that choice)?

by kijana's acl on Sep 13, 2011 12:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Why stop at 2005?

Truth be told (warning: I’m going by memory here so I can’t deliver the exact figures) PSU’s record against top competition for the entire Paterno era is not very good.

BUT……….. I would bet that most teams records against top competition the past 46 years is not very good. That’s inherent to the circumstances. The problem with PSU is Joe’s record against top competition has definitely gotten worse in the latter part of his career.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to Weinrab..

on Grantland, PSU is 1-13 against the top 5 since ‘94. I do believe PSU beat some decent teams in the mid 90’s, but no sure which top 5 teams they played (probably just OSU and Michigan) other than Arizona in ’99.

"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."

"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.

by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 13, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

And he was right in that article.

It’s not the QBs; it’s the system.

by Ab4PSU on Sep 13, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

At one level, Bolden seems like the obvious answer, but his confidence is clearly shaken. McGloin is less flappable, but no one seems sure if he’s got enough talent to be a consistent Division I quarterback.

And there it is. Presumably the easiest way to fix Bolden’s confidence is to let him play, let him learn and let him grow. Confidence can be fixed. A lack of talent, which people consider to be McGloin’s issue is not something easily fixed at all. Either you have it, or you don’t.

Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.

That is all.

by EREX21 on Sep 13, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've seen nothing..

that tells me Bolden’s confidence is shaken. He sounded confident in the radio interview after the game.

"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."

"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.

by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 13, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well I didn’t say it was shaken, I was going off what the article said, which is not unreasonable when you consider that the guy very seriously considered transferring. He eventually decided to stay, for reasons that presumably we will never know. I can certainly see how his confidence may be shaken by having to split time with someone else. And the article did not specify, unless I missed it but the author may not be talking about Bolden’s confidence in himself but rather his role on this team.

Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.

That is all.

by EREX21 on Sep 13, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Confidence can be fixed, but maybe not quickly

I think the issue with Bolden is what it’s always been: he’s a petulant teenager, not really yet capable of leading this offense.

With that said, I agree with the world that he ought to be the starter and get some experience, but the fact is that this controversy has existed and continues to exist not b/c both QBs are good, but b/c neither one is.

I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.

by spakajewia on Sep 13, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I simply think he needs to work on his touch.

Especially on shorter passes. I think that will come with experience, which I hope he gets a lot more of starting Saturday.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

This thing was basically sparked by a stat Ben quoted in the game wrap, which started in 2006, and it seems to fit. Five years is a round number, it’s a full recruiting/college student stay.

And not to jump on this one, but it’s always bothered me quite a bit: it makes nothing but backward sense to use anything but final rankings, which are based on the largest amount of information. Besides it’s pretty worthless analysis when you start doing things like counting PSU’s win in 2002 against NU as a top 10 win (final record: 7-7) or give Charlie Weis credit for beating the #3 Michigan Wolverines in 2005 (7-5).

by Kevin Powers on Sep 13, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

great (depressing post)

I’d be interested to go all the way back to 2000-2010

then compare 1990-1999

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Sep 13, 2011 12:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, this is pretty awful.

The non-garbage time points are even worse than what I wrote yesterday with my “literary license” about PSU scoring 10 points a game in big games. (And it looks like I got lucky and was spot on with the 10 points per game.)

Interesting (and very telling) that the numbers don’t get much better when you expand this to games against Top 25 teams.

Bottom line is this is pathetic. I know in most of these games PSU was the underdog, but a 10 seems to be the magic number here (Top 10 competition, 10 losses, 10% winning %, average 10 points per game). This explains why I have more dread than expectations of good prior to these matchups. Oh well….at least I was at a game where this did not happen, but instead PSU annihilated the #1 team in the country in late November: 48-14!!! (Man, I’d love to see another game like that against a Top 10 team.)

I just don’t see how we as fans can continue to make excuses for this horrible pattern. I just think there needs to be a mindset adjustment by the staff. They need to play to win, instead of playing not to lose or hoping your opponent beat themself. Plus this pretty much shows that PSU keeps doing the same thing over and over again, despite lousy results. Isn’t that the definition of insanity??

Anyway…great work on a grim subject.

(By the way, the ND win over PSU was Charlie Weis’s best win of his ND career. What a fraud that guy was….and the sports media for helping to create and perpetuate said myth.)

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 12:33 PM EDT reply actions  

I think maybe

that there just isn’t enough talent on the roster to win these games, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Do we blame that on recruiting, on population growth in the South, or both? I know it’s fun to second-guess game plans and preparation and such, but (and admittedly I haven’t looked this up) it seems like we’ve sent a lot more players from defense to the NFL recently than have gone pro from the offense.

Joe Paterno Apologist

by Joe 96alum on Sep 13, 2011 12:33 PM EDT reply actions  

wiz looked pretty good last night

(but I get your point, and agree)

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Sep 13, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

He had some penalties,

but the Raiders really seemed to like to run behind him on that left side and it was pretty darn successful. A pretty good debut for a rookie I would say.

But yeah, outside a couple of guys from the recent passing game (Butler, Norwood, and Quarless all get decent pt, though Butler is still hurt) we don’t have many guys form the offense in the NFL.

WE'RE DANCIN!!!

by bigs26 on Sep 13, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

MRob...

plays fullback for Seattle.

"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."

"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.

by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 13, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

One PSU Pick

in our Fantasy draft-Robbie Gould (by me). FTR-We do not pick defensive players.

"You can't handle the truth!"

by nits4ever on Sep 13, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

At least now I have documented proof for my source of cynicism.

Those noble ones still in positive spirits over this program, I salute you. I mean, I don’t care so much that we are 1-10 or whatever against the top 10. It’s the fact that each loss was the exact same, insufferable embarrassment.

That kid who tackled Talor Battle.

by Eric Gibson on Sep 13, 2011 12:36 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I feel like I'd be way more okay with the losing

if it seemed like we were trying to do something different between losses.

Nope.

by psuwxman on Sep 13, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Obviously everybody has a pretty terrible record against the top 10. But give me a furious comeback that comes up short, or give up a last-second TD to the superior opponent. I’d much rather deal with 10 heartbreaks at this point than this nonsense. JUST MAKE THEM EARN IT FOR ONCE.

And as someone who was sitting up in the ‘Shoe in 08, that game was a fluke. It was awesome watching Pryor completely whiff on receivers who were running freely all over the field. Todd Boeckman would’ve destroyed us like he did in 2007 if Tressel actually played him.

That kid who tackled Talor Battle.

by Eric Gibson on Sep 13, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it was not a fluke.

Ohio State was cheating, we weren’t. We earned that victory. Don’t dismiss one of the more meaningful victories in Penn State history simply because you’re mad after this week’s loss.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I'm so over being mad about this program.

It has nothing to do with the Alabama game, the 2011 season, Joe Paterno, or anything else.

I was at the game and luckily got a great view of the whole field. Those receivers were open all game.

That kid who tackled Talor Battle.

by Eric Gibson on Sep 13, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually I don't think you are.

Because what you’re saying is completely hyperbolic. Wide open receivers does not change the fact that Penn State won the game, fair and square. How is it Penn State’s fault that Tressel decided against starting Boeckman? Maybe Tressel recognized that Penn State’s defensive line was considerably better than it had been a year ago.

And even if you aren’t mad about this program, you’re apparently bitter if you feel the need to call our wins “flukes” because 0-12 sounds a little bit better than 1-11 in proving Penn State’s troubles.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh.

Nope, I’m not mad, no matter what you claim to think. I think all my anger was sucked dry after the Rose Bowl. What I consider a ‘fluke’ win is that the loser did more to lose it rather than the winner earn it. I came away from that game convinced Boeckman would’ve made the biggest difference. All OSU needed was an average QB who could hit the side of the barn, but Tressel had to baby his big superstar instead, apparently.

However, I respect your point. It shouldn’t be what OSU didn’t do, but rather what PSU did. And what they did was beat the other team that was fielded that day.

That kid who tackled Talor Battle.

by Eric Gibson on Sep 13, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now this I agree with.

PSU won and that’s really all that matters. If it’s because somebody else screwed up, so be it and I’m glad they did.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've been saying the same thing since that game.

Buddy at work is a huge OSU fan. I told him they messed up not playing Boeckman. He dissected PSU the year before and would’ve won the 08 game too, I believe.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Based on what?

I mean, really, you both seem to have forgotten that Ohio State was able to avoid the pressure of Maybin and Odrick only by moving Pryor around (And holding….holding….still holding). They couldn’t do that with Boeckman. So it’s not accurate to act as though it would have been a repeat of 2007.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Simple.

Based on the fact that Boeckman was at that point in time a better qb than Pryor. Despite that, they still had a chance to win it at the end. And they were only losing because of a mistake Pryor made.

Say what you want about Pryor, but he was put in an awful tough spot for a freshman qb in that game. I think the experienced upperclassman handles it much better and would be a difference maker in a close game.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

A better, slower quarterback who never fared well against strong defensive lines because he was not a great quarterback.

I’m not arguing about this anymore. It’s ridiculous to call that win a fluke, the end.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

So teams can't improve on a year-to-year basis?

This is what you’re arguing.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, not at all.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I also never said PSU’s win was a fluke.

Of course teams can improve. And that would include OSU as well.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then what you said was, frankly, nonsensical. Boeckman beat the 2007 Penn State team, which was inherently worse than the 2008 team. Talking about his victory over an inferior Penn State team is thus mostly worthless. That’s why I objected to this whole line of debate in the first place.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I really don't know what you're talking about now.

I give up. You win. I can’t post as much as you can.

All is fine at PSU.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know what you're talking about now.

I was responding to this:

Yet he defeated PSU the year before.

Yeah, go figure.

You didn’t respond to my response, instead you’re suggesting that I’m trying to drown you out. Ok.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

You drown out a lot of people.

It’s obvious to me from your posts that you’re no dummy, but good gosh man…must you try to dominate nearly every topic? Seriously…it gets old fast.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

You're, I believe, the fifth person to offer me this criticism.

I’ve responded before, gotten recs for a couple of those responses, but let’s do it differently this time.

As the accuser, the onus is on you to prove that I truly “try to dominate nearly every topic”.

Remember, sir, that posting a lot because I find a blog enjoyable, responding a lot because I find debate enjoyable, remember that that is not a sign of trying to dominate. Trying to sharpen intellectual skills via a sports blog network is not an attempt to dominate people.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I don't know how to phrase this without sounding mean.

But just because you find posting a bazillion times more than anyone else enjoyable doesn’t mean those that have to endure it enjoy it.

Again, I don’t dislike you and I think you’re intelligent. But you just need to learn that the entire blogosphere isn’t always interested in your every thought. Plus your opinions lose their oomph from over saturation (just like Oren Speigler, who is constantly writing letters to the editor in W. Pa…even if I agree with him, I usually dismiss what he has to say because I’m weary of his constantly letting us know what he thinks).

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

1) You strongly overstate the amount of postings I make. Note that there is one fanpost of mine in the fanpost section. Note that I have not replied to everyone in this comment section. Note that I haven’t even responded to everything Kevin said. Note that I do not post in every single comment section on this site. Note that you are the only person lately to complain about this. Note that I was not temporarily banned for talking too much, but for saying something dumb. Note that I have made a conscious effort to debate rather than bicker – that, in short, I am doing my best.

2) There is nothing in the terms of use of this site about users “posting too much” and nothing about challenging and debating opinions, which is a natural human thing – let alone posting lots of arguments that try to use reason.

3) Also, finally, I’ll try to say this without being mean: As I stated, you are not the first person to suggest I try to drown people with my words. The first to suggest this was, I believe, SweepTheLeg. And he suggested it after he and I had engaged in a debate fairly similar to this one. My point is that people generally seem to say (The distinction between say and think being an important one) I talk too much only when I vehemently disagree with them and challenge their opinions.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, I meant comments, not posts.

This debate didn’t prompt it. I’ve thought from before I even joined this blog and was just a “lurker” that you comment too much. I was just too polite to ever say it (as I suspect a lot of others on here are, too).

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Sorry for the confusion.

I have noticed that here there is not much of a distinction between posts and comments just in terms of the language we use to describe what we’re doing. Perhaps it’s because we hit the “post” button to comment. Perhaps it’s because it takes less time to write “post”. In any event, I am more likely to say “jesse. posted twice in this thread” than I am to say the same thing with “commented” replacing “posted”. This tendency on our part can evidently lead to some confusion.

Who is to decide I comment too much? I don’t want to go out like Socrates.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, you were right.

It is comments and not posts. For some reson I call everything a post.

You lose me with Socrates. I’m not that smart/cultured. If you knew where I was from you’d instantly understand.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Socrates was killed by the Athenian elites because he constantly questioned them and made them look foolish. This is not to suggest I am like Socrates in that regard, but his story has always struck me as profound in terms of rejection by peers.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

“A man who is good for anything ought not to calculate the chance of living or dying; he ought only to consider whether he is doing right or wrong.”

My grammer skills need improved.

by BMAN13 on Sep 13, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry.

I truly don’t mean to be that way because I’m certainly not in person.

Again, I guess I need to improve my writing.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have a feeling

he’s referring to Rambler.

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 13, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

2008 Ohio State was a shitty game?

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

You win, jesse.

"This is BSD, the crazy stirs itself," dwf5095

by Paige2PSU on Sep 13, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do believe...

Tressel then used Boekman against Texas in the Fiesta Bowl. He seemed to try and adapt.

"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."

"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.

by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 13, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I seem to recall that as well.

Tressel put too much on Pryor his first year, in my opinion. But that was probably “part of the deal”, if you know what I mean.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think...

hbeach08’s last sentence is how we all feel. Does it mean PSU sucks, no, but there is room for improvement.

"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."

"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.

by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 13, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Wow, well-done analysis

We all may have varying definitions of success, but I can guarantee you this is not it.

Now only 10 more years until Joe retires. Embarrassing. (cries in hands)

by ghostofbrd119 on Sep 13, 2011 12:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Hahaha

No, you’re not. I’m just resorting to arguing on your level, because you cannot be reasoned with.

Formerly known as kmart93

Black Shoe Diaries

by Kyle_Martin on Sep 13, 2011 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

have you ever TRIED?

I don’t know how you could possibly think you know what I think about anything because we have yet to have a substantial debate about ANYTHING.

My suggestion – cram it churchy – at least until you would like to have an honest dialogue about something

by ghostofbrd119 on Sep 13, 2011 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Churchy?

Where the hell did that come from?

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 14, 2011 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I've tried

Several times, but when you’re caught you change the argument. Your arguments are filled with so many logical fallacies that it’s a pain in the ass to debate you. So now, I’m just going to troll the troll.

Formerly known as kmart93

Black Shoe Diaries

by Kyle_Martin on Sep 14, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Big Gulps, huh?

Welp, see ya later!

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Sep 13, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice skis, they yours?

Both of ’em?

BSD Wentworth
Co-Founding Partner
Chariman, Hiring Committee*

*Accepting Applications

by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 13, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hooray! Another Penn State sucks post! Only the 43rd in three days!

We are an Ohio State blog, right?

This is getting pretty pathetic guys, and I’m not talking about PSU’s record in big games.

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Sep 13, 2011 12:39 PM EDT reply actions  

You Can't Handle The Truth!!

Son, we live in world where there are football games againts top 10 teams. And each time we play one of those teams we trot out the same sorry game plan. You have the luxury of deciding whether to listen to the truth or stick your head in the sand. You don’t want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want believe that we are a great team.

I’ve stopped thinking we have chance in these games long ago. I’m nearly as upset losing these games as I am when we lay an egg against teams we should beat.

by psu85 on Sep 13, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Nope, just not play the same record over and over again is all

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Sep 13, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, guess what?

We’d like Penn State to stop playing the same record over and over again in big games.

by Chris Grovich on Sep 13, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm sure these posts will help with that

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Sep 13, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

These posts will have no effect on the performance of the team.

Don’t be ridiculous. Your original comment really upset me. This isn’t supposed to be the PSU PR Dept. And it’s not a JoeMustGo.com sit. It’s great analysis of what is actually going on in PSU sports. Kevin went to the time and effort to gather statistics and put together an actual accounting of what many people have just claimed-PSU doesn’t really show up in big games. It stinks. I hate it. But what else can you take from those statistics?

by Big Beefer on Sep 13, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don't disagree with you

It’s fantastic analysis, and kudos to Kevin on the work. However, we’ve had three solid days of “Joe doesn’t know what he’s doing”, “We’re going to lose”, and on and on. This is just one more piece telling us how much we blow. Does anyone honestly think any PSU fan doesn’t know that we haven’t done well in big games against very good teams? And it’s been the same thing every single day reminding us, just how “bad” we are. It’s just getting to be really monotonous.

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Sep 13, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then take a break. Walk away from the computer.

Come back after the Temple game.

You’re a good guy, but I don’t know how you legitimately expect it to be puppies and rainbows around here on the Tuesday after a horrific loss in a game that everyone’s been looking forward to for years. If you’re not the type who needs/wants to dwell and sift through the rubble, good for you. I mean that. But if you’re just complaining because you don’t like being confronted with the facts, I’m not sure what we can do here.

by Chris Grovich on Sep 13, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think dawson has a bit of a point

As do you. No, it won’t be all puppies and rainbows, but there are two ways to handle a loss. You can either let it overwhelm you, or you can get fired up about it and use it as motivation.

If I were on the team, I would put a newspaper clipping of that game in my locker and use it as motivation the rest of the season. The team is talented, but clearly lacks an identity and some leadership. I hope this is the turning point, and we see guys step up next week against Temple and play like they want it.

I understand that we don’t have the luxury of really making a difference by being on the team, but it can’t hurt to be optimistic. If, at the end of the season nothing has improved, lets have this conversation. But right now, two weeks into the season, it isn’t the time for pure pessimism. We haven’t even started converence play. We have three games of growing up to do. And you know what? I like the intensity I saw out of Bolden that last drive. And I like the intensity of the defense. We’re gonna be alright.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Sep 13, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like the positivity...

But too often this coaching staff hasn’t turned a loss like this into a motivating factor for the next game or a teaching tool to improve on. We will see what happens with Temple, but I am not pleased that they are sticking with the two QB system.

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I almost shit a brick when I heard the announcement

Make no mistake, I’m not happy about it. But I think the overall tone these past few days has gone from hopeful criticism to borderline doom and gloom.

There were some positives to take away from Saturdays matchup. Not a ton, but there were some. There was actually some discussion in the fanposts about it. But all of the front page stuff has been negative. Its not that some isn’t necessary, but I’d like to see a balance.

I’d like to find a reason to get excited about the rest of the season. And, I think that blogs have certain responsibility to the fanbase to be slightly homerish and by looking at the glass as half full. As dumbfounded as I am about a lot of things, I’d like to believe that we can right the ship. And, actually, I do believe.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Sep 13, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree about some positives being taken away from the loss.

Their offensive line did a pretty good job in pass protection, Boldin looked much better than last year and their D in general was good, they were just on the field too much.

The O-line has to do a better job in run blocking though, they didn’t open many holes up for Redd.

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope it isn't the coaching staff that does it

I want someone to show the competitive fire of Tim Tebow after their awful loss to MSU. To be so frustrated with a loss to the point of tears. If there is a true leader on this team, they will emerge this week.

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Sep 13, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I tried to walk away.

I just can’t quit you, though.I always come back around.

by psuwxman on Sep 13, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

The truth hurts & piling it on days after a rough loss hurts more

but I appreciate that what you provide above is based on research and was obviously compiled and presented without malicious intent, but rather to lay out the facts for an audience without the time and/or inclination to gather this data themselves.

I hear what Dawson is saying of course, that you don’t have to, as I said, “pile on” with this stuff in the days after a lousy game, but it is a topic of much conversation right now and, as usual, the amateur bloggers of BSD put more thought and effort (again, without malice) into it than most of the “professionals.” You can’t just keep up with a steady stream of “maybe Rob Bolden will play more” or “maybe Justin Brown will catch better” posts. The preseason is over, and more idle speculation ahead of the Temple game doesn’t accomplish nearly as much as this post did.

Can’t say I particularly enjoyed reading this, but I appreciated your putting it together. Kudos for the effort.

"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd

by PSU_Buch on Sep 13, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not going all Fugi and arguing for the sake of arguing

I’m not complaining because facts are being presented, because as I’ve said multiple times, the facts were perfectly obvious to me before Kevin made this post. We overwhelmingly lose to great teams, it’s not a news flash to anyone, at least not to me. Nor do I honestly think everything should be ‘puppies and rainbows’ as you put it. I honestly expected meltdowns to happen after we lost, because they always do. The difference to me this time is that most of the time that comes from the trolling ilk in the fan posts who pop out of their cesspools every time we lose to declare Joe incompetent, and the team to suck. I never thought I’d see three days of that from front-page authors without a single post analyzing what we did right on Saturday, and what should give us hope going forward.

But ultimately you’re right, a break for me is apparently long overdue. I apologize for coming off as such a blue tinted glasses homer. Clearly I’m not seeing how bad the team is after losing to the number two team in the country, and for that I’m sorry. I know this isn’t what you were trying to get me to do, but since I’m clearly not getting the picture everyone else is, I’ll hang up the hat on my time here. I wish you all the best of luck with everything, and wish the team the best of luck the rest of the season, because I think they can prove a lot of people wrong. We are Penn State.

Adieu.

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Sep 14, 2011 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

.
I never thought I’d see three days of that from front-page authors without a single post analyzing what we did right on Saturday, and what should give us hope going forward.

I’m not sure I’d agree with you, Dawson, on this, given historical track records.

And I know you know this, but writers on the internet are under no obligation to provide content from any set point of view. Since this device seems to have taken hold, I’ll don my CoachAtPresser Hat. Is Chris’ writing at its most clever when ‘skewed toward the skeptical?’ Sure. (see In Praise Of vs. The Disaster That Never Came). Did Kevin write a data post that was topical after a loss to the #2 team in the country? Yes. Did some of the data seem arbitrary or cherry-picked to make his point? Sure; aren’t all data posts in blogistan? Were data errors in the post copped to after being pointed out? Yes. Did Pettigano’s depth chart reaction piece feel a little like this?

Kinda. Is the internet device of overstating the opposition’s position with outlandish superlatives a little tired? (‘puppies & rainbows’, ‘sky is falling’)? Of course!

But I’d suggest a better method of expressing your dissatisfaction. Namely, do the analysis yourself. Here’s the best place to start for the bama game. Take a look at the drive charts, look at groups of individual plays, grab some player & coach quotes and make a fanpost. I’d read it. And I’d bet there are plenty of other readers who also would.

In Blogistan, the real issue is Effort. If you put it in, you have the right to spin it pretty much however you like. And although I can tell you from experience how healthy periodic internet breaks can be, I hope you stick around.

by jtothep on Sep 14, 2011 6:37 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

What exactly would you like them to write about

The great show, complete with Sweet Caroline and $40 parking?

by ghostofbrd119 on Sep 13, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

And that's the thing about it.

I don’t need the great show. The white outs and Zombie Nation are cool as hell, I think. Other than that, the football should speak for itself. The rest of it is a distraction. Perhaps that’s why it’s there. To take your mind off a game like Saturday.

by Ab4PSU on Sep 13, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

I’d trade the whiteouts, music, Paternoville, etc. for a win. We didn’t have any of that stuff when I was an undergrad, but the team kicked ass on a regular basis and it was GREAT!

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

What year did you graduate?

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about you Rambler?

Washingtonian and Penn Stater -- My blog features the triumph of hope over experience that is being a DC sports fan (especially the Nats) as well as the Nittany Lions, life in BeltwayLand and other things I find interesting. @doubleuefwhy

by WFY on Sep 13, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Didn't go to Penn State. Been a fan since my Dad taught me to be one.

I’m asking him that because I’m comparing Penn State’s current record to records of the past and I’d like to use his graduation year as the start or end of a five year period.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's just say PSU won a national championship and....

only lost 9 games my 4 years at PSU against a much tougher schedule than they play now.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

As far as Zombie Nation and other Guido "innovations"

If you traded them, I’d say “Great trade! What did we get?”

Making something an increasingly generic experience while losing big games isn’t a good formula.

Well done, Kevin. I am not happy to read this information, but your analysis was spot on.

Washingtonian and Penn Stater -- My blog features the triumph of hope over experience that is being a DC sports fan (especially the Nats) as well as the Nittany Lions, life in BeltwayLand and other things I find interesting. @doubleuefwhy

by WFY on Sep 13, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd hope the trade involves hearing the Blue Band more.

As another said, Zombie Nation has lost its impact when it’s so oversued we hear it after things like sacking the Syracuse QB. Zombie Nation is great to mix in now and then after huge plays that swing momentum for a huge crowd release of emotion, but otherwise, just give me the blue band after every touchdown, field goal, extra point, and safety.

by Altoona Man on Sep 13, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I love that the 'Syracuse QB' thing is sticking

to whatever extent. I really do believe judicious use of ZN will result in its having far greater impact when we do play it, and I was glad they didn’t try to shoehorn it in on Saturday to manufacture enthusiasm among the crowd. That begins with play on the field. Atmospherics like ZN can only magnify it.

"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd

by PSU_Buch on Sep 13, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

The real truth doesn't hurt as bad as the list says.

He left out the Outback Bowl plus wins over 2007 Wisconsin and 2008 Oregon State. All three finished ranked and 2 out of 3 were ranked when we played them

by Altoona Man on Sep 13, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

is 5-18 all that much better than 2-15?

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 13, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

5-18 is still abysmal

That’s a winning percentage of .217. So-so would maybe be more like 9-14 or 10-13.

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 13, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would actually be semi-ok with that percentage.

If it were against Top 10 teams. I would be ok with it against Top 5 teams.

But this is it against Top 25.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's my point

Against the best of the best, it shouldn’t be expected to win a ton of them but if we’re supposed to be a top 25 team, a .217 win percentage is terrible. Ugh. I need a handle of whiskey. Stat.

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 13, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know.

I messed up my response and made it somewhat ambiguous. I’m sorry…I knew your point, but was just trying to elaborate. I need to choose my words better.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like we need to choose offensive plays better?

Zing!

Ugh. It’s no fun to zing your own team. cries a little inside

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 13, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well duh

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 13, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow
Not sure why I added 3 to both. And I'm an engineer. Go me and my math skills.

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 13, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha no probs

Had to point it out though, cuz it does make a difference

Formerly known as kmart93

Black Shoe Diaries

by Kyle_Martin on Sep 13, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Makes a big difference

and makes it a little better but still below what our expectations should be.

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 13, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno. I think both set of numbers suck.

Again, this is top 25 we’re talking, not top 5 or even 10. I’d like to think a top 25 team should be around .500 against top 25 competition.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not great but not as bad as some thought.

In reality, since 2005 we’ve been a Wisconsin or Iowa, as much as we’d like to be an LSU or Oklahoma. But on the other hand, we’re not a Purdue or Northwestern either just because we’re not a top-tier team.

by Altoona Man on Sep 13, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be honest....

I think yesterday we were really talking about top 5 or 10 teams. So in that regard it is as bad as we thought.

Pretty good analogy of where we currently stand in the college football heirarchy. It doesn’t please me, but things could be worse.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some of us are just fed up.

Sorry if it’s not all rainbows and kittens around here right now. Call me a big giant baby, but I’m none too pleased with stats like this. It’s shameful.

Buckeye born, Nittany Lion by choice.

by nittanylines on Sep 13, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

You can't really make rebuttles to records, can you?

My point was this is just piling on. Did any of us not already know we’ve lost big games in the past?

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Sep 13, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

The exercise is looking at how and why, the point being that the pattern is not the losing big games — and yes, the very nature of tough games is that you don’t win them all — but rather that we’re losing them all with the exact same game plan and exact same performance deficiencies.

by Kevin Powers on Sep 13, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish I had...

the time to figure out which percentage of drives in those games were 3 and outs.

"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."

"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.

by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 13, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is this a PSU sucks post?

It’s a statistical post. There is a big-time difference there.

by STU Boy on Sep 13, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some have been overly-sensitive the past couple of days.

And are reading things into posts that simply aren’t there.

I love PSU football. I love Joe. I hate the way this team plays in big games and want something to be done about it. I don’t want the same old, same old which we’ve all suspected and this post pretty much proves is going on.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

And what is the overall conclusion of said statistical post....hmmm?

It’s great work, but I’d be shocked if anyone didn’t already know we don’t play well in big games.

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Sep 13, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

So what is the answer then?

Just ignore the facts? I’m with you in that this week has been no bueno (and it’s only Tuesday) and it feels like we’re beating a dead horse but there’s a difference between knowing we don’t play well and then having the awfulness spread out before you.

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 13, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

No the answer is getting over it and moving on

We lose big games. I knew that fact already even without Kevin’s great stat analysis. I believe we all knew that fact. I’m honestly not as big as a homer-fuck as it might appear. I know the reality. What I ask is that we actually have some post game analysis. We lost. Badly. Yet it seems like I’m one of the few that saw incredible positives vs. last years team, but that’s not what we’re getting, is it? I"m truly and honestly all for real facts, but the past three days have been nothing but doom and gloom. Rambler is the only person to write an article that focused on what we did right on Saturday. And now posters and authors are flipping shit over an ‘OR’ on the depth chart. Is it just me or is that petty and just looking for excuses to declare Joe or the staff out of it, and unsuitable for coaching PSU anymore.

I honestly believe like a lot of you that Bolden was far ahead of McGloin on Saturday, but do we really need posts overreacting to the fact that both QBs are going to get playing time against a MAC team this Saturday? If I’m wrong, tell me and I’ll just STFU and keep my uniformed opinions to myself, but three solid days of nothing by laying on how bad Penn State football is is not why I read BSD. I like the analysis and news, but we’ve had little to none of that aside from analysis coming to the exact same negative conclusion every time.

"Hey Joe, don't worry about the guys we lose. Only make sure the guys you bring in here belong here, and they're coming here for the right reasons." - Rip Engle to Joe Paterno

by dawsonPSU10 on Sep 14, 2011 3:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hear what you're saying

There hasn’t been too much actual analysis, well besides of the terrible QB play. I found it quite surprising that both teams converted the same percentage of 3rd downs, their 3rd downs were just more important.

I hope you stick around like jtot said and I know I haven’t posted anything actually analyzing how we did but I feel very optimistic about the team. Of course, that optimism can be watered down depending on how some things shake out but I honestly believe that there is enough talent to beat every team on the schedule, with Wiscy being the biggest hurdle to clear.

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 14, 2011 7:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Things were pretty bleak in 2004.

Again, I’ll preach this forever if I have to, Joe Paterno has given you no reason to think he can’t change if need be.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 12:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Rambler.

I like this post. In fact, I think it’s pretty much dead on.

I do, however, wonder if you’ll observe this team as “improved” if we lose Saturday. How would this impact your mostly correct observation that Joe has adapted?

Buckeye born, Nittany Lion by choice.

by nittanylines on Sep 13, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're not going to lose, so why are we discussing this?

Naturally my opinion would change to an extent, but it’s really not worth considering at this point, is it?

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Teams have lost games with a bigger talent gap than the Penn State – Temple game on Saturday. To say they won’t lose on Saturday is your opinion and that’s fine, but to pose it absolutes is a bit reckless.

Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.

That is all.

by EREX21 on Sep 13, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't pose it as an absolute.

My opinion is that we’re going to win because there is almost no logical reason whatsoever to think Temple is good enough to challenge Penn State – anguish after a tough loss does not count.

My opinion is not absolute. I could have said, “I think we’re not going to lose”, but “I think” isn’t always necessary in prefacing an opinion.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Temple

They’ll be lucky to score 10 points on our defense. The offense will be able to run the football with the 3 headed monster and will win comfortably, no matter which QB plays.

"I don’t know what he’s done differently, whether he’s eating differently or Sue is making him happier, but he’s definitely a different coach out there" Devon Still

by jman07 on Sep 13, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depending on if we can force Girardi into interceptions, this could be close or a blowout.

I think Temple can score on our defense but no more than 14 at most. Even last year they only had 13 (they keep saying they would have won if Piece wouldn’t have gone out but they weren’t moving the ball with Pierce after the first quarter anyway).

Anyways I think we could win by 17 if our defense gets some good turnovers. If not it’ll be a 10-point win or so.

by Altoona Man on Sep 13, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd be shocked...

beyond shocked if Temple is within 10 points of PSU in this game, let alone wins it.

"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."

"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.

by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 13, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

PC update

Paterno plans to continue playing two QB, and the timeouts were the players’ fault for not knowing what to do.

by Chris Grovich on Sep 13, 2011 12:43 PM EDT reply actions  

You're kidding!

He blamed the players?! Wow….that’s a good way to lose a team. This really surprises me. Even if it’s true, why say it publicly???

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

“We’ve got to do a better job of making some kids more game-aware”

and

“injured players not knowing what to do”

Donnie Collins just tweeted at me, “Yep, They got injured and didn’t know whether to go down or go to the sidelines. This is what we were told.” Which is funny because that only happened on one of the three timeouts (Okoli’s injury) and he was rather obviously trying to get the referee to stop the game by collapsing three feet from the PSU sideline.

I’m glad the ref didn’t stop it. Could you even imagine the outrage from our fans if an Alabama player tried that and the game was stopped?

Anyway, this is first-degree threadjackin’. Sorry.

by Chris Grovich on Sep 13, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope to hell you're kidding.

If you’re not, and he’s still planning on playing two QBs, then that emphatically says it’s time for a change!!! I hope Spanier is reading this. If that’s true with the QBs, then it’s lost, and I can no longer justify supporting the current staff, regardless of the history.

by Ab4PSU on Sep 13, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Awesome

It goes from bad to worse.

Why not just give some B.S statement about the team needing to do a better job of being on the same page? Why throw the kids under the bus?

What a joke.

Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.

That is all.

by EREX21 on Sep 13, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

What is hard to take is the margin of victory in those games

I mean in some of those games I don’t think PSU was the better team, but the losses in a lot of cases haven’t been close. It is been a really long time since pulled off what people would call a BIG UPSET. I might be missing one, but I have to go all the way back to the Notre Dame game in 1990 (? on year). There are a number of chances late in the season to pull a big upset but this team seems to be far away from that to even consider it.

by mundyscorner99 on Sep 13, 2011 12:51 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd love to see another 48-14 type beating of a top team.

But I doubt that’s gonna happen (and no, not just because Pitt is no longer a top team!).

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)

by RWReese on Sep 13, 2011 12:59 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Thanks Kevin..

I feel like slitting my wrists right now.

I do think you cherry picked a bit by not including 2005, but 1 season out of 6 just seems more like an anomaly at this point

jesus.

by Artiefufkin10 on Sep 13, 2011 1:02 PM EDT reply actions  

This scared, conservative, we can't make a mistake plan is no good.

Here’s why: You’re going to make mistakes in every game, just like we all do in everyday life. What do you do then? Hang your head? Quit? Or do you dig in, fight, and try to move ahead? When a coach harps no mistakes, no mistakes, we have to play a perfect game, and then trouble comes, what are the players supposed to think? They’re going to think “Well, I guess we’re fucked. We done made the mistake the coaches feared most.” They’re still kids, for Heaven’s sake!!! They are still growing and learning. You lead them.

Show them you want to win, you know you can win, and that mistakes WILL be made, but they can be overcome. They can be overcome because WE ARE (or should we really start saying “WE WERE”) PENN STATE!!! Show me somebody who’s afraid to lose, and I’ll actually show you somebody who’s afraid to win. It takes guts to win in all aspects of life. And if we’re not trying to win, then explain that punt in the fourth quarter. I hope somebody has a decent explanation for it. But I don’t think there is one. It’s just a stale, tired program that needs to be overhauled.

And the plan to continue to play two QBs proves it.

by Ab4PSU on Sep 13, 2011 1:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Also....

what people refer to as “Tresselball” is really just slightly more successful “Paternoball”.

If I recall, OSU was getting smoked in their bowl games from 2006-2010 (bowl years) and also lost to USC in that OOC series.

The difference is, Tressel did better in conference play and my theory on that is he’s had better OL’s and RB’s and didn’t rely so much on stellar QB play. Aside from 2006 with Troy Smith, OSU’s QB’s have been sort of “meh”.

by Artiefufkin10 on Sep 13, 2011 1:12 PM EDT reply actions  

This list does not contain all of the Top 25 teams that Penn State has played since 2006.

Here’s a list of the missing Top 25 teams.

2006 vs #23 Tennessee: W 20-10 (ranked #19 when we played them)
2007 vs #21 Wisconsin: W 38-7 (ranked #15 when we played them)
2008: vs #18 Oregon State: W 45-14

And Wisconsin was ranked #24 in 2008 when we took them to the cleaners 48-7 but they did finish unranked I guess. And Illinois was #21 when we beat them 38-24 in 2008, even if they did also finish unranked.

That doesn’t tremendously improve the stats, but it does make a point. Plus, some “unranked” teams were really close to being ranked and probably should have, like Temple in 2009 and 2010 as well as Northwestern in 2009 and Purdue in 2006.

Another side note, the 2006 Ohio State game we led 3-0 at halftime.

by Altoona Man on Sep 13, 2011 1:15 PM EDT reply actions  

I dunno about everyone else...

But I don’t want to be hanging my hat on or bragging about any beatdowns of the Temples, Purdues, and Northwesterns of the college football world.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Were they all ranked at the end of the year??

Pretty sure he clarified that was his criterium.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

The rankings I gave were their end of the year rankings, albeit their highest of the two polls.

Tennessee in 2006 finished #25 in the AP Poll and #23 in the Coaches Poll.
Wisconsin in 2007 finished #24 in the AP Poll and #21 in the Coaches Poll.
Oregon State in 2008 finished #19 in the AP Poll and #18 in the Coaches Poll.

by Altoona Man on Sep 13, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, thanks. Good catch.

But even with those wins these numbers are still unacceptable to me.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

2008 MSU

Ranked #15 when Clark reigned down TD’s on them…..think they finished #24.

I thought only safeties played 15 yards off the ball! Let's crack some nuts!

by pic15 on Sep 13, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks! I forgot about that one.

That was probably our best win of 2008. So that really puts us at 6-15 and a .286 against top 25 teams. Again, not great but not the nightmare some have us believe.

by Altoona Man on Sep 13, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know, so three of those wins are against either 24 or 25, which is kind of an arbitrary place to be anyway — the top 10 is easy to rank, everything from the late teens to the 30s seems to be kind of random IMO.

It’s telling that the fact that these teams were actually ranked at the end of the season is so forgettable.

by Kevin Powers on Sep 13, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's worth noting however

that their final ranking is lower in part because they lost to PSU. Seems like a bit of a no-win situation.

"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd

by PSU_Buch on Sep 13, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good proofing.

Not sure how I missed these, but also: Tenn was #25 in the AP, Wiscy was #24 in the AP, Oregon State is a good one, but they basically earned that by knocking off USC.

Doesn’t really change my mind about anything — my main focus is on Top 10 anyway — but totally correct point about the data.

I don’t really care at all about what a team was ranked when we played them, polls are pretty pathetic until you get towards the end, and even then you’ve got OSU-UM in 2006.

by Kevin Powers on Sep 13, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I've been to the vast majority of those home games listed above

I love big home games, I love the atmosphere, the crowd, tailgating, the whole bit. But I have seen that same game replayed at least 10 times in the last decade. I can’t think of one of those games where we were even in the game by the end of the 3rd quarter. Most are hopeless by half time.

The truth is that I don’t even expect to be competetive anymore, I just enjoy the atmosphere and the friends and family I see. We’re never going to have another 1994 season under Paterno and we may not ever have another 2008 season either… So be it.

My strategy is to just accept the way things are, try not to let the bad games spoil my good times, and at some point when we’re relevent again these hardships will make it even more thrilling.

Anyway, the flashlights eat our human power grids, our souls if you will. So i destroyed them, and if a few precious panties were burnt or soiled in the reckoning then so be it

by millzners on Sep 13, 2011 1:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Each unit is different and time will tell for this group of Lions

If you doubt the talent on this team then you haven’t watched them enough. Plenty of top recruits to play with anyone…..including #2 Alabama last week. Questionable personnel decisions, poor coaching and the team not executing (especially the receiver corps) led to the loss……. not lack of talent. But the season is still young for this squad and maybe they won’t write the same tired script that is alluded to throughout this post. There are positives to be taken out of the Bama game and I am not going to argue them here. What remains to be seen is if this team can learn from their mistakes and come back and string together a bunch of W’s. Although Iowa is unranked the 10/8 game will be a good test to see how far this team has come since Bama. We finish out with Nebraska, OSU and Wisco so there will be plenty of opportunity this year to play and defeat top competition. Don’t dwell on the past but judge this team but what they get done this year…..that script has not been written yet. On another note…..still can’t believe the depth chart for this week has QB #1 listed as an or with QB #11.

I thought only safeties played 15 yards off the ball! Let's crack some nuts!

by pic15 on Sep 13, 2011 1:41 PM EDT reply actions  

There is *some* talent.

PSU fans always tend to overstate how much talent there actually is on the roster. Where are the difference-making DE’s, safeties, offensive linemen, quarterbacks, and wide receivers? If you have a 4th and 1, which offensive lineman do you choose to run behind?

Lots of good players, not enough great players.

by Chris Grovich on Sep 13, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Top talent on the field for PSU

Top talent on PSU -

QB -R. Bolden ( he is a true sophomore with limited experience cut the kid some slack)

WR – Moye, Brown, Kersey, Drake…..at WR……this group has probably been the most disappointing as they were billed as the best unit in the Big10. Talent is not a problem though…..execution is. Moo-moo plays too much IMO….fast but limited.

RB’s – Redd, Beachum, Dukes, Green – we are pretty loaded and our FB’s aren’t slouches either

TE – we lack talent at this position currently

OL – ton of high rated players…….same old story PSU doesn’t develop

DL – Latimore, Still, Crawford and Hill have not disappointed this year and the other guys are young but talented. This unit will only get better barring injury.

LB – Mauti, Hodges, Fortt, Stupar, Carson, Hull (could all start at proabably any program in the country) – could be one of the top LB corps in the nation with continued development and barring injury.

DB’s – Powell and Lynn will both play on Sunday. Morris and Thomas have a ton of talent. All are being wasted with our BS cover 3 bend but don’t break D. Safties could use a talent upgrade though Wilis looked good when he played last year

I thought only safeties played 15 yards off the ball! Let's crack some nuts!

by pic15 on Sep 13, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the O-line has done pretty well so far this year

Did great in run blocking against ISU and gave up no sacks against Bama

Formerly known as kmart93

Black Shoe Diaries

by Kyle_Martin on Sep 13, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK but still a long way from dominant and being a "top" OL

Redd fought for every yard and still averaged less than 3 yards a carry. No sacks but Robo was hit often and hard. Good news is…..Bama is probably the best D we will see this year so they should only look better from here on out. Here’s hoping they actually do.

I thought only safeties played 15 yards off the ball! Let's crack some nuts!

by pic15 on Sep 13, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't get why everybody touts Dukes so much.

Honestly, what has he done except have great physical numbers on paper? We constantly talk him up and ask “why didn’t he get in the game”…well, maybe there’s a reason he doesn’t play much. A reason the coaches see in practice.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like Redd being better.

Redd looks like Curt Warner. I think he is going to be special back at PSU and he needs to get his touches as does Beachum. You raise a good point in that the coaches rank Dukes behind both Redd and Beachum……doesn’t mean he sucks though either. I think everyone, including me like Dukes because of the reports that come out about him from practice and the Blue/White game. For all anyone knows though this kid may never sniff a 100 yard games at PSU. Green on the other hand has shown that he adds a nice dimension to the offense. The team will be better off when Green sees some snaps on O.

I thought only safeties played 15 yards off the ball! Let's crack some nuts!

by pic15 on Sep 13, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree on Redd.

I think he’s gonna be special and I am also reminded of Warner when I see him run.

But (with apologies to Mike Tomlin) “the reality is” Dukes is a 3rd team running back, but we talk him up like he’s 3rd team All Conference. The fact is he’s done nothing of note in any real game. I know it’s not all his fault, but I was just going with what was said earlier about fans overestimating the talent their team has. I think we’re guilty of this regarding Dukes.

Keep in mind that I hope I’m completely wrong and that Dukes makes me eat crow regarding this comment.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Limiting mistakes

is all well and good but did anyone notice that the team w/fewer mistakes on Sat was the visiting team w/a QB in his first road start?

bama comitted a single penalty prior to the 4th quarter and didn’t turn the ball over at all.

a (well-documented) lack of cohesiveness on game-day contributes to mistakes. i happen to think that maybe these kids are coming into school more prepared to play significant roles and want the responsibility of winning football games.

the team does not seem to respond to the calls to “not make mistakes”, instead they become even more mistake prone. my sense is that nick saban (and the other successful modern coaches) trust their team to execute the plays they have practiced, put them in good positions with a clearly defined plan, and call on them to win the game. in doing so, they inspire their team to perform their best and play clean football.

am i suggesting the game has passed paterno by? i hate to say it but i am. the staff has done a decent job of adjusting their style to a modern game that can’t be won with a 70/30 run/pass split, but they don’t seem to be getting the most out of the team and rarely inspire peak performance.

he can go when he wants b/c 8-4/9-3/maybe even 10-2 isn’t the end of the world and it’s just college football but i am on the “a MNC is unrealistic until there are wholesale changes” train.

of course, i have 0 access to the program so i could be entirely wrong but as an avid observer, this is the sense i get.

let's go state

by 424E. on Sep 13, 2011 2:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Well said......

but consider Bama had a ton of mistakes with Kent State, week one. We played way too conservative…..especially with our DB’s on third and short. That is Tom Bradley not Joe Paterno and it is not going to change as long as Bradley is D. Coordinator. The biggest mistake, which I do attribute to Joe, is not sticking with Bolden. QB’s have a very fragile psyche. You can’t afford to have your starter constantly looking over his shoulder and feeling like he is going to be yanked for making a mistake. Robo was PSU’s best shot to win and taking him out of his rhythm sealed PSU’s doom on Sat.

I thought only safeties played 15 yards off the ball! Let's crack some nuts!

by pic15 on Sep 13, 2011 2:36 PM EDT reply actions  

As a follow up.....

Bama was also supposed to rotate QB’s…..but too his credit Saban stuck with the hot hand.

I thought only safeties played 15 yards off the ball! Let's crack some nuts!

by pic15 on Sep 13, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

i dont think you can compare kent st

vs playing on the road at psu. the mindset is totally different.

psu has always played a cover 3 zone shell and it works well at limiting big plays. it is super maddening on 3rd downs b/c eveveryone knows exactly where the holes will be if there is no QB pressure.

the other side of that is that you need to make that team play from behind, otherwise little curls and ins and off tackle runs will eat up the clock. if you are playing with a lead though (at least 7 pts) it can be very effective.

not sticking w/#1 is a huge mistake and seems very short-sighted.

but i stick by my point that “DON’T MAKE MISTAKES” is having the opposite effect….and maybe it’s not the best way to get the most out of your team.

let's go state

by 424E. on Sep 13, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

nit picking here

but Kent prolly threw the kitchen sink at them with no expectation of actually winning (I didn’t watch that game)

we tried the “play perfect and eke out a win approach” (which has been well documented and chastised) and it didn’t work out

anyway, I agree with you (I think?…I’m not sure what my point is….I think I’m commenting too quick for my own good this week)

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Sep 13, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

PS: 2006 Ohio State should include the other FG as non-garbage.

I know it’s a small difference but it’s for accuracy’s sake. It was midway through the 4th quarter and Penn State kicked the FG to make it a one touchdown game (were it garbage, PSU would have gone for it on 4th down and gone for two our of desperation). There were about 9 minutes left in the game, it was 3rd and goal at the 1, false start pushed us back, 3rd down pass fell incomplete so we kicked a FG to make it 14-6. We got the ball back with about 6 minutes left and drove downfield and were taking back control of the game. With 2 minutes left, Morelli throws a pic six that’s returned for about 80 yards then another with 1 mintue left returned for 50 yards. So really, none of PSU’s points that day were in garbage time.

by Altoona Man on Sep 13, 2011 3:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Just for comparison

Since the glory years were mentioned, here are the results from 1980-1989;
Yr Vs Top5 Final ranking
1980 0 – 1 8th
1981 1 – 0 3rd
1982 2 – 0 1st
1983 0 – 1 UR
1984 1 – 0 UR
1985 0 – 1 3rd
1986 1 – 0 1st
1987 0 – 1 UR
1988 0 – 2 UR
1989 0 – 1 15th

5-7 record during a period when we were #1 X 2, #3 X 2, and 8th. When we were top 3 we went 4 – 1. When we weren’t top 3, we went 1 – 6.

This is during our Glory Years! There is a lot of difference in the college landscape now, much more parity from less stockpiling of talent. Whether we like it or not, State College/PSU is not going to be attractive enough a destination for recruits for us to fill our roster with 4 and 5 star talent. We will continue to be at a disadvantage to the teams from Texas/Florida/California (both from proximity and weather) in recruiting. I don’t see any magician coach out there who is going to change that. If we are a #20 team on average, I would never bet $ on us beating a top 5 team (or top 10), let alone expect it. Any wins we get against top competition are gravy. I think perhaps rose colored glasses/hindsight may be leading fans to expect results as if we are a top 3 team.

Alea iacta est...

by PSUGuru on Sep 13, 2011 3:24 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

True, but...

That is still a much better record than 1-13!! And with the facilities PSU has, it should be able to field a football team that can compete at the highest level; I’m not saying win the Big 10 every year and compete for a national championship at the end, but they should be able to get more than 7.5 points per game and be competitive.

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

And to add on

This is my problem…coaching and recruiting hasn’t been great since the mid/late 1990’s, and really PSU can do a lot better..

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Huh???

You’re comparing a 5-7 record against top 5 to a 1-10 record against top 10 and/or 6-15 against top 25! I don’t see what kind of conclusions you can draw from such a flawed comparison, other than PSU was better back then against better competition than they are now against lesser competition.

And you take in 10 years while the original post comprises only 5. I bet if we went back another 5 in the original post we’ll see much worse numbers.

And the late 80s were not glory years.

I just don’t see what the point is supposed to be here.

by J Breezy on Sep 13, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's what I've compiled so far. I will review the first five years of the Big Ten play sometime today or tomorrow.

1969-1973: Two great seasons, two very good seasons, one average season in 1970 where they finished 7-3 and with an #18 ranking.

1969:
Vs. #6 Missouri. WIN 10-3
1970:
No games vs. top 10 opponents
1971:
At #12 Tennessee (Finished #9). LOSS 31-11
1972:
At #7 Tennessee. LOSS 28-21
Vs. #2 Oklahoma. LOSS 14-0
1973:
No games vs. top 10 opponents

Overall record: 1-3.
Average score: opposition 19, Penn State 11
Average score of losses: 24-11
Chief observation: Four opponents in five years? No wonder Joe started scheduling other teams.

1977-1981: Two great teams with two gut wrenching losses, one frustrating team, two pretty good teams.

1977:
vs. Kentucky (Finished #6). 24-20 LOSS.
vs. #10 Pitt. 15-13 WIN.

1978:
at #6 Ohio State. 19-0 WIN.
vs. #5 Maryland. 27-3 WIN.
vs. #2 Alabama. 14-7 LOSS.

1979:
at #6 Nebraska. 42-17 LOSS.
vs. #11 Pitt (Finished #7). 29-14 LOSS.

1980:
vs. #3 Nebraska. 21-7 LOSS.
at #9 Missouri. 29-21 WIN.
vs. #4 Pitt. 14-9 LOSS.

1981:
at Miami (Finished #9). 17-14 LOSS.
vs. #6 Alabama. 31-16 LOSS.
at #1 Pittsburgh. 48-14 WIN.
vs. #8 USC. 26-10 WIN.

Overall record: 6-8.
Average score: Penn State 19, opposition 18
Average score of losses: 24-13
Chief observation: Almost dead even.

1982-1986: Two great teams, one very good team, and two mediocre teams.

1982:
Vs. #2 Nebraska. 27-24 WIN.
At #4 Alabama. 42-21 LOSS.
Vs. #5 Pittsburgh. 19-10 WIN.
Vs. #1 Georgia. 27-23 WIN.

1983:
Vs. #1 Nebraska. 44-6 LOSS.
Vs. #3 Alabama. 34-28 WIN.
Vs. #4 West Virginia. 41-23 WIN.

1984:
At #5 Iowa. 20-17 WIN.
Vs. #2 Texas. 28-3 LOSS.
Vs. #9 Boston College. 37-30 WIN.

1985:
At #7 Maryland. 20-18 WIN.
Vs. #10 Alabama. 19-17 WIN.
Vs. #3 Oklahoma. 25-10 LOSS.

1986:
At #2 Alabama. 23-3 WIN.
Vs. #1 Miami. 14-10 WIN.

Overall record: 11-4. Average score: opposition 22, Penn State 21
Average score of losses: 35-10
Chief observation: If just by results against great SOS, this was unquestionably the greatest five year stretch in Penn State football history. That average score really proves how badly we always lose in top 10 losses.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Repeating myself...

Once again though, mostly they were a lot more competitive back then. They aren’t anymore. And look at some of those wins! We could only dream of that right now…haha

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

rambler,

i think you just proved the point of this post

 we don’t compete against the best like we used to

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Sep 13, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please note that there was no analysis in my post.

Also, I never argued with the point of Kevin’s post.

There is only one notion we can possibly refute with past statisics: the notion that we were more competitive in losses in years past. 24-13, 35-10, those aren’t exactly impressive numbers, are they?

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, I should clarify...

My point was that we were more competitive in general, because look at how many victories we tallied vs. this competition. But yes, you are right Rambler, in losses I would say that they haven’t been impressive. However, they did win more of these match-ups back then!

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

No they're not impressive

But the win pct. variance is significant. I would categorize is at huge, or eye opening.

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Sep 13, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

PLEASE NOTE THAT THERE WAS NO ANALYSIS IN MY POST

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

OKAY

I guess, since I know you to be a staunch defender of Coach Paterno, maybe I was surprised to see you take the time to research and post this information (or is it comment, not post ;) )

I should have known you knew exactly what you were doing.

I was caught off guard

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Sep 13, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great Work RR

I would love to do it-but I just don’t have the time.

"You can't handle the truth!"

by nits4ever on Sep 13, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whether we like it or not, State College/PSU is not going to be attractive enough a destination for recruits for us to fill our roster with 4 and 5 star talent. We will continue to be at a disadvantage to the teams from Texas/Florida/California (both from proximity and weather) in recruiting.

You are right, Penn State isn’t as attractive as Gainsville or Southern California, or Austin. But what about the Big Ten? I’ve been to Ann Arbor, Madison and Columbus, and none of them are anything to write home about. In fact, Columbus down right sucks. So while Penn State may not be able to handle some of the other schools, there is no reason they shouldn’t be able to out recruit the other Big Ten schools, especially in their own home state of PA.

Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.

That is all.

by EREX21 on Sep 13, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

And speaking of PA...

Pitt’s campus is terrible…they can definitely out recruit them!

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t mind Pitt’s campus but it is not what Penn State’s is. Then again, I am clearly biased.

Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.

That is all.

by EREX21 on Sep 13, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Same here...

And you are dead on about Columbus.

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

Columbus is definitely crap, but, they were cheating so that explains, at least partially how they managed to get top flight talent.

Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.

That is all.

by EREX21 on Sep 13, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

I didn’t even want to touch that angle

Alea iacta est...

by PSUGuru on Sep 13, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

The coaching staff

One thing that must be discussed and in my opinion is the most dominant factor in this regard is coaching. The staff has failed to evolve over the years and it’s not adequately motivating these kids. Let’s not forget, these ARE kids and while PSU hasn’t done the greatest job recruiting (I’m not saying they haven’t had good recruiting years-they have). A good coaching staff knows how to prepare and help these kids reach their maximum ability; maybe even improve as a player.

The coaching staff is just not doing that. For instance, eliminating turnovers can be helped with good coaching. The Devon Smith and Sczerbera (sp?) turnovers were completely avoidable with good coaching on how to secure the ball (With Sczerbera, he is a tight end and HE SHOULD NEVER GO LOW to take on a tackler…when I saw that I was like what the heck??).

A big example out there right now are coaches that consistently field great non-AQ teams, like Boise State & TCU. Those coaches do not get awesome recruits, however they coach the heck out of them and actually make them better. The PSU coaching staff is not doing that and they haven’t done that in a while.

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 3:27 PM EDT reply actions  

agreed

i said this a few comments up, but they are not getting the most out of the majority of their players and they definitely aren’t eliciting peak performances from their teams.

let's go state

by 424E. on Sep 13, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry 424E...

If I just rehashed what you said, I just got on and felt like going off! It has always been my pet peeve with this program

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 3:38 PM EDT reply actions  

no need to apologize

just wanted to let you know i stand with you

let's go state

by 424E. on Sep 13, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

So Kevin...

You had nothing ready to go on punt coverage schemes for today?

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Sep 13, 2011 4:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Hopefully not until at least the Iowa game.

by Kevin Powers on Sep 13, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

ARRGH...

Maybe there really is isn’t a safe harbor anymore.

Iowa, always Iowa.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Sep 13, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can't play to "not lose" if you're already losing.

And that’s why this necessity for perfection will continue to only occasionally pan out.

YOU PLAY. TO WIN. THE GAME.

/herminator’d

by psuwxman on Sep 13, 2011 4:30 PM EDT reply actions  

On a lighter note

I will never tire of seeing the third photo and others from that game. It was beautiful.

Washingtonian and Penn Stater -- My blog features the triumph of hope over experience that is being a DC sports fan (especially the Nats) as well as the Nittany Lions, life in BeltwayLand and other things I find interesting. @doubleuefwhy

by WFY on Sep 13, 2011 4:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Isnt this whole idea skewed for doom anyway

I mean the reason these top 10 teams are in the top 10 is BECAUSE they dont lose. I just researched and the only teams out there with MORE than one win against a team that finished in the top 10 in that same time period are

Oregon State, who beat USC twice at home
Arkansas, who beat LSU twice at home
Texas Tech, who beat Oklahoma and Texas
South Carolina, who beat Georgia and Bama
and South Florida, who beat West Virginia twice

I wouldnt label any of those teams as elite. And the only team to finish in the top 10 the last 5 years is (shudder) Ohio State, so there’s plenty of eliteness out there that should be beating these teams, just like we should.

Look, do I hate watching Penn State in a big game, sure. They almost always fail to meet expectations. But using evidence like “see? look how bad we are against teams who end up as the top 10 teams in the country!” is not a statistic that was going to end well anyway, for any team. In fact, in that same time frame Ohio State is 2-6 with one of those wins coming in OT, Oklahoma is 3-5 And

wait fot it

wait for it

Alabama is 3-9 against teams who finsih top 10 since 2006. and if you take away their national championship season, they are 0-9 against teams who finish top 10

Think about that, Alabama is 0-9 since 2006 (sans championship season) against top 10 teams.

Teams dont beat top 10 teams. Thats why they are top 10.

by swiggy04 on Sep 13, 2011 4:44 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

So..we shouldn't even try to win a game vs. a top 10 opponent?

I know that isn’t what you are saying but it sure sounds like it!

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

no i know what you mean

my point wasnt that we would NEVER win against a top 10 team, just that when it happens its more of an exception than a rule. We arent the only team who fails to win these games

by swiggy04 on Sep 13, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know...

and at a basic level I do agree with you. However based on their past and the rich tradition, facilities, etc. I just want them to compete. Not get blown out every time they play one of these teams.

by OLDLIONofNYC on Sep 13, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for doing the research I was too lazy to do

Statistics are only meaningful when compared in the proper context

'Why would she have you meet her in a bar at ten in the morning?'
'I just figured she was a raging alcoholic'

by psuphysicist on Sep 13, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point wasn’t ever the record, which is terrible, but rather the strategy and offensive production and non-competing nature of just about all of them. What’s Alabama’s average offensive production in their games? (And FWIW I don’t think it’s fair to pull the MNC season; PSU looks much worse if you take away the two 2008 games.)

I also think there might be more you’re missing (and I know how annoying these lookups can be, trust me). Just checking on Florida, for example, they beat LSU and Ohio State in 2006, then Alabama and OU in 2008. That’s four right there.

by Kevin Powers on Sep 13, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry

The 5 teams i listed were the only 5 teams i found that finished outside the Top 10 and had more than 1 win against a team that had finished inside the top ten Florida may have had 4 wins against top 10 teams in 2006, but they finished inside the top 10 so i didn’t include that.

I included OSU, Oklahoma and Alabama there at the end just to prove a point that even teams that frequently do finish in the top 10 dont have outstanding records in this category either.

But the research i looked at was Top 10 teams records versus non top 10 teams. Sorry if it was confusing, it seemed clearer to me when i researched/wrote it, but then again it may not have translated well.

by swiggy04 on Sep 13, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

i understood your point

I just think the major takeaway from the lists at a quick glance is “OMG we dont beat top 10 teams” which, while true, is true of alot of teams.

Also I dont understand this “garbage time” stuff. If the first team is out there its not garbage time. I’m sorry. This is not an Aceto-esque personal attack, I’ve seen it on here a few times but any body who has ever played competitive sports knows that if they are on the field, they do NOT want to give up points. Even in a prevent or whatever you may be in, you are far too emotional and competitive in a game to want to let the other team score. The only way I would consider something garbage time is if you are playing their second team. Otherwise I just cant see how it matters. No starting defense is out there playing less hard because they are winning, they dont want to give up points and ruin their PPG defensive ranking.

by swiggy04 on Sep 13, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

More swiggy ftdubyas
Also I don’t understand this "garbage time" stuff. If the first team is out there its not garbage time.

With you.

by jtothep on Sep 13, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly.

You can’t prove that the first team starters from USC or Alabama gave up. And it’s mostly irrelevant anyway. They were out there and we scored on them. Not garbage time.

I have nothing sarcastic or humorous whatsoever to say about the Temple Owls.
Beat Temple.

by ReadingRambler on Sep 13, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you

Proof positive that not all of the facts paint a dark and gritty picture of where Penn State is now.

by Altoona Man on Sep 13, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I had a feeling that this was the case

I would like to see how many losses top ten teams have against other top ten teams in this time period too

Formerly known as kmart93

Black Shoe Diaries

by Kyle_Martin on Sep 13, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why did you exclude top teams?

I genuinely appreciate the work and discussion here, but on second thought what was the logic for excluding every top 10 team from the list?

The way this read to me now: if you exclude all the good teams, Penn State’s record fits in nicely with the other teams that are left? (and how many total is this, are we talking every team that has ever finished in the Top 10 over the past five years)

As for the garbage time thing, I’m happy to agree to disagree, but I do completely disagree that USC was as hard to score on with 3 minutes left in the rose bowl as they where in the first quarter.

And all of this is missing the point of the data above, which is that Penn State is almost always non-competitive in these games, not just losing them all.

by Kevin Powers on Sep 14, 2011 8:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well put.

“And all of this is missing the point of the data above, which is that Penn State is almost always non-competitive in these games, not just losing them all.”

This is a great summation.

by J Breezy on Sep 14, 2011 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Then add that data to your chart

you can say in the post its not about wins and losses, but when the only statistic you provide is win or loss and the score, this is data about wins and losses and final outcome, not competitiveness. You cant tell me this is not about wins and losses. If Penn State was 4 and 5 against top ten teams with the average margin of victory being 2 and the average margin of defeat being 55, arent they less competitive? Or are they more competitive cause we win some. Your basis here for what is and is not competitive is how many times we lose and what the final score is.

The reason I eliminated the top ten teams is simple. The record would be .500. If 44 games were played between top 10 teams in those 5 years, the record would be 22-22, so whats the point of adding that? It includes just as many wins as losses by definition. It adds nothing to the debate.

by swiggy04 on Sep 14, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

swig, we don’t have this post if we’re 4-5 against top ten teams. You’re building a straw man with the win by 2, lose by 55 thing and I think you know it. And as for the suggestion that the post doesn’t address competitiveness, there are about 10,000 words up there detailing every single game, in what way it wasn’t competitive, along with bullets about repetitive themes. The post is not just a chart, although you could still probably deduct the issue of competitiveness from it by looking at how consistently Penn State can muster no more than three points during the phases of the game in which it’s winnable, which, again to the point, is generally just a little more than half of it.

As for the exclusion thing, you’re not comparing PSU to every team, you’re comparing them to ones that haven’t had a single excellent season in five years, which isn’t relevant, because I don’t think anyone here thinks PSU is incapable of competing and being compared to the teams that do have significant success every 2-3 years. Just include every team’s win percentage and let’s look where PSU falls, I don’t have access to that data.

by Kevin Powers on Sep 14, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

ok, its just my opinion on the subject you happened to write upon

It just so happens my opinion is different from yours, which is ok.

Im not sure if its a straw man, unless im misunderstanding your position. Your position, as i understand it, was that this only had to do with competitiveness, and you base that on scores and wins and 10K words. Im saying that if we had more wins and less losses but were just as uncompetitive, we arent talking about this. The purpose for me saying that is to show you that whether or not it was your intention, your whole thing is based on wins, losses, and scores and subjective garbage time stats.

As to your second paragraph im not sure I know what it means, you asked why i excluded Top ten teams, i gave you my basis. The only thing I used that data to show was that teams dont often win (and therefore “compete”) in games against top 10 programs, which is the criteria you set forth.

Listen, Im not arguing with you per se. The post was well written and is certianly persuasive. I agree with you on the entirety of it, I do not think Penn State has been very good against these types of teams. You are right.

But I’m not going to lose my mind about it, especially since, based on the data i have found and put out there, the reality is that very few teams are that good in these situations, including Alabama.

by swiggy04 on Sep 14, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The numbers never lie...

In this case, being outscored and average of 25 – 13 in games that matter has led to the record we have in big games. I would be interested to see the numbers from 2000 – 2010, which would include our worst offense in recent history along with the 2005 team that could score points on most teams. It would likely paint an even uglier picture.

Regardless of what Joe does, there is no question this offensive staff would have been fired 10 years ago if they were coaching at any other “elite” program. A down year here or there can be explained away or excused as part of the ups and downs of modern college football, but a down decade really can’t.

All this being said, I hope we can score touchdowns rather than field goals against Temple this year. That game may have been the most frustrating of last season.

Can we jump in the DeLorean and travel back to 1994? I miss Kerry, Ki-Jana, Kyle, Bobby, a line that could block, and offensive coaches with a clue....

by PSU Sandman on Sep 13, 2011 6:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Come on.
We lost to the team ranked 2nd in the nation.

"Want a donut go to dunkin donuts, want a linebacker go to Penn State." - Chris Carter

by xozte on Sep 14, 2011 12:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Black Shoe Diaries. If you haven't already done so, create an account and get involved in the conversation.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Avatar2_small
Sad News: 717's Own, Reading Rambler Passes On
154690_10100374022013820_13900087_66639438_4085030_n_small
Breaking Down Penn State's Inaugural D1 Hockey Schedule
At_the_foot_of_a_legend_small
My Obligatory Off-Season Book Post

Recent FanPosts

Hugh_griffith_small
Food for Thursday....The PA Pineapple Company
Psukoolaid_small
Suggestions for fun in Minneapolis?
1-joe-paterno_small
Please clarify your posting policy.
A_cullen_the_bug_small
JoePa & Esquire - and other stories
Jet_ski_jump__reef_central_avatar__small
Sandusky Jury Selection Begins June 5th
Small
Kameron Miles
Small
ESPN - reporting PSU considering schedule changes
Joepa1_small
Jimmy Johnson's worst loss

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SHOP THE BLACK SHOE DIARIES STORE

Gameday Depot University Apparel


Managing Editors

Zn_avatar_small Mike Pettigano

Img110_small Jeff Junstrom

Asst. Editors

6a00d8341c630a53ef0105369fb7ee970b-800wi_small Jared Slanina

Olmec_small Devon Edwards

Baller_small Eric Gibson

Mauti_small Cari Greene

Staff Writers

Iron_armor_small Galen

New4_good_small Nick Blonde

Turd_ferguson_psu_small Tim Aydin

On_the_way_to_grad_small Kyle_Martin

N53100510_31463067_5584_small Adam Collyer

Bus-fire-bikes_small Dan Vecellio

What-a-country-yakov_small bscaff

Small Keith Platt

Small TimHyland