Reconsidering Penn State in the ACC
by PSU_Buch on Sep 19, 2011 9:09 AM EDT
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PrintLet's take this guy's ACC argument at face value (H/T to today's Success with Hyperlinking) and assume it would be a package deal of Notre Dame and Penn State. Is it really SO RIDICULOUS as to laughingly reject it out of hand that PSU might be better off joining a powerful Eastern league, contingent on Notre Dame's involvement?
It would restore two traditional rivalries many fans would like to see rekindled in Pitt and Syracuse (guess you could throw Maryland in there as a third if you stretch your definition of "rivalry") and offer at least intermittent attractive conference match-ups with the likes of ND, VT, FSU, and Miami, not to mention intriguing games against UNC, BC, Georgia Tech, and NC State. While I agree that the academic profile of such a league wouldn't be the hand-in-glove fit we enjoy in the Big Ten, these are still strong institutions, and increasing cooperation between GT's and PSU's engineering programs would probably strengthen both. As in all aspects of such a move, something lost can be offset with the opportunity to gain something new - close a door, open a window.
More importantly, rounding out its 16 schools with the big splash of adding Penn State and Notre Dame would make the ACC undeniably RELEVANT. It is already going to be the best basketball conference, and aligning the compelling star power of PSU, ND, FSU, Miami, and VT could help make it truly competitive with the SEC in football. Such a conference could, especially in the revamped landscape of power conferences many envision, become a revenue generator to rival a 16-team Big Ten.
Let's be honest with ourselves, the Big Ten's football product is suffering, and some might suggest that the downward trajectory has been in place for some time. Further, it now appears almost inevitable that the B1G will expand into the Midwest, not the East. Do we want to enter the new era of college sports as an unwelcome Eastern afterthought in a conference full of aging former empires and Cornbelt also-rans? Are we content to be shoehorned in with Kansas, Kansas State or Iowa State or whatever lousy Big XII scraps the B1G scavenges to keep up? How about as a key cog in a new revenue sport juggernaut that embodies the future of college athletics, rather than its past?
There has been, over the last 48 hours, greater than usual fretting and speculation over the post-Paterno era here at BSD. Once the transition occurs, whenever it does, isn't it at least worth contemplating that membership in an ascendant East Coast-oriented conference could best help springboard Old State into the next 50 years? I am not suggesting this is a slam dunk, and I am not predicting it will happen. I do, however, believe it is worth far more thoughtful consideration than I have seen it receive thus far. Fortune favors the bold.
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Comments
1. The ACC does have something similar to the CIC that it is starting to pimp, albeit the CIC has a 50 year head start
2. You’re right, it only makes sense if Notre Dame comes along.
3. It is never going to happen.
4. Good points though
5. Except for saying it would be comparable to the SEC. No, just no.
I honestly don't think it will happen
and even as I read back through the post, I kept thinking about whether a JoePa-less Penn State would be better off recruiting-wise in the B1G. I just wanted to see some smart discussion.
The SEC thing might be a stretch, but we’re heading into totally uncharted waters, and what seems impossible today might not once all the dust settles.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
Recruiting-wise
The B1G would want to capture western/southern TVs and stadiums to try to showcase their teams and get exposure to athletes in those areas (TX, AZ, CAL, etc). If PSU joined the ACC, they’d be locked into only east coast markets and that doesn’t help recruitment nearly as much as the B1G current footprint and possibly a more nation-wide viewership if B1G adds teams to west/south.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
PSU in ACC
I like it. but it is never going to happen.
PSU in ACC
I like it. but it is never going to happen.
I'm not against changing conferences if it makes Penn State more money
I have no special affection for the B1G. I just think there’s very little chance of that happening. Notre Dame being involved would be the gamechanger.
ESPN was just reporting
that Notre Dame would look to go to the ACC if they are forced to join a conference. So…
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
Follow @134Lounge
They also reported that Leach locked James the alleged hooker killer's son in a shed.
My grammer skills need improved.
by BMAN13 on Sep 20, 2011 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
As much as we all hope
expansion and realignment results in renewed rivalries, at the end of the day the ONLY reason for expansion is MONEY and the only way to get $$$ is to expand the footprint of the television markets your conference covers. The B1G will likely always have better payouts to member institutions than the ACC which only has east coast viewership. If the B1G brings in one or two more east coast teams, that’s great. But, with the movement in national demographics it makes more sense to expand to the west and capture new TVs tuning to B1G games. PSU already commands a large part of the northeast viewership.
Nope…PSU stays in B1G and the B1G tries to stand at 12 but if they decide to go to 14 or 16 the teams will either be teams like VT/MD/BC in the east but more likely MIzzou/BYU/or some other mid-west to southwest team. ND is logical because of the national appeal but they’ve been courted before and rejected the B1G so now it’s up to them to make the move and they’ve indicated they’re happy to stay independent.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
If we're going to talk about demographics
The B1G footprint is losing people, its the SEC areas and Texas that are gaining.
by Nick Petrilli on Sep 19, 2011 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
which is why the B1G will go after western/southern expansion if they do end up doing it. The VT/MD option would bring in the mid-atlantic TVs for the B1G, but I can’t see them going for more than one east coast team.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
Good points
I’ve always believed that Virginia Tech and one or two other ACC schools would be nice additions to the B1G to expand the Southern footprint, but that $20 million exit fee seems like a big obstacle to poaching the ACC.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
The 20M will make 'em
sweat but at the end of the day they’ll pay it and leave to go to either the SEC or B1G because in the long run they make more money and get better nation-wide exposure for the team. You have to spend money to make money. They’ll do it.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
I agree. If somebody wants to leave a conference, they’ll find a way around that “poison pill”. There are too many “loop holes” in some of those contracts. I don’t think the only new expansion will come from some of the “left overs”. ND is the prize (maybe Texas if they ar still in play) but I still think some of the schools that appear committed to a conference may be more swayable that it may look. Stay tuned.
Also, if the BIG would get ND and, say, Mizzou. That gets to 14. maybe 9-10 are pretty good football programs. Why not take two schools that may match academically but would be fair or bad in football, but may bring some quality basketball and other things to the conference? I know, football brings in the $$!
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
Yeah, I'd be ok with that
You need a few jobbers for the big schools to beat up on after all.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
This won't last forever.
Why? Water. Eventually there just won’t be enough to take care of all the people that are there.
In the deed, the glory.
Corn Nation!
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by Aaron Musfeldt on Sep 19, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Will never, ever, ever happen
Penn State fits with the Big Ten institutions far too well, and people forget that in the Big Ten, the academics bring in as much or more as the athletics in terms of $$$. That’s a BIG deal. The ACC has some fine universities, but nobody will ever jump from the Big Ten because of the academic prestige and financial security of the conference.
Having grown up in Big Ten country, I’m a HUGE fan of Penn State in the Big Ten. I just don’t see the appeal of the ACC being anywhere near as great, even if Notre Dame jumps to the ACC. I’d put my money on Notre Dame joining the Big Ten, anyway.
Let's Go State!
by Gopher Broke on Sep 19, 2011 9:45 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
You're honestly the first PSU fan I've heard
Say he actually likes and cares about the B1G. Though I’m sure there’s more since I rarely come over here.
by Nick Petrilli on Sep 19, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I like the B1G
since I see it as classic football. I wish it were more competitive nationally but given the SEC oversigning and the change in demographics nationally, it’ll probably remain pretty much where it is for the foreseeable future. But yeah, I love the history of PSU and Michigan and all the others…except tOSU…I hate those guys.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
I like the Big Ten as well
even though we still seem like the red-headed stepchild.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Sep 19, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
We were
Our welcome into the Big Ten was mishandled. But we’re not viewed as stepchildren anymore. When adding Nebraska, the consensus was that the four powers of Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, and Nebraska had to be split up evenly, and they gave Penn State a protected rivalry with Nebraska. That’s respect. Penn State has a lot of sway in this conference. Remember, JoePa’s been the leading agitator for instant replay and expanding to 12 teams, and he eventually convinced the others that they were good ideas.
Let's Go State!
by Gopher Broke on Sep 19, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
You know
That’s a really good point that often gets overlooked. If the Big Ten didn’t respect PSU we wouldn’t have gotten teh Nebraska cross-over.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Sep 19, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Red-Headed Stepchild
We were at first but I don’t think that’s true anymore. IMO the overall respect for JoePa has had a lot to do with PSU’s increased status in the B1G as time has passed.
"You can't handle the truth!"
The only reason ND
would join the ACC is for Basketball, but never for Football. I could see them try to remain independent in Football but the other teams join the ACC, but I doubt the ACC would let them do that…expansion is about Football and the money it generates for the schools. IF ND joins a conference it will be a conference with national exposure. They wouldn’t join the ACC with only east coast exposure for football. Only the SEC or B1G would do for ND.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
Notre Dame
They care way too much about academics to consider joining the SEC.
Let's Go State!
by Gopher Broke on Sep 19, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but
they really, realy like money. THAT would be the only reason they’d consider the SEC, but the academics leaves them with only the B1G as an option IF they ever decide to make the move from independent which is a last resort for them.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
I would prefer not to see the STEP minimums go up
and a move to the ACC would force either that or dropping some sports, both of which are unpalatable.
I would prefer to watch PSU basketball lose in the ACC
to watching PSU basketball lose in the Big Ten.
But I think the non-athletic (i.e. academic) features of the Big Ten are what ulimately are irreplaceable, and ultimately are the reason we won’t leave.
And, I’d argue that the ACC is a worse fit for ND than it is for Penn State.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Sep 19, 2011 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Notre Dame is going to try and find a home for it's not football sports.
As it sits right now, the Big East still provides that, so there is no reason to jump. Big East football may go away, but the affiliation with all of the catholic schools will likely remain strong. If the ACC extends Notre Dame the same deal that the Big East does, they may take it. Otherwise, they’ll have to join the Big Ten and they will, eventually.
No funeral.
Beat Temple.
But ND will not have a bowl game conduit without the Big East bowl tie in.
I still don’t know how ND conned the BE into taking secondary bowls and not sharing the revenue but they did. That will not happen anymore and there is a chance if the BE somehow survives, ND will be out any bowl tie ins. With the new changes, the big ND question is where will they go bowling if they don’t make a BCS bowl. It is a serious obstical to them staying independent.
My grammer skills need improved.
An article on ESPN today quoted the ND Athletic Director as saying that
“maintaining football independence is our first priority,” and as long as they can still have a chance to win the national title, I don’t see ND joining a conference, though I suppose their inability to play in all non-BCS bowls would also affect them.
The long-term threat to the Irish is that they’re on the outside looking in at the superconferences, who then eschew the BCS in favor of a different “playoff” system. Those superconferences would, presumably, have no reason for allowing ND to “drink the milk for free” without joining.
While I tend to think that a new superconference regime with a new post-season structure is the most likely outcome at this point, it’s certainly not definite. Until ND realizes that they only way the can remain nationally relevant in football is to join a conference, they’re not joining a conference.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
That
is what I have been saying. IMO a MAJOR plus to 4 Superconferences. Make ND play by the same rules as everyone else.
Full Disclosure: I have despised the Irish since the late 1960’s- and I was even Catholic back then!
"You can't handle the truth!"
I am not a B1G Hater
I enjoy playing O$U, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc., and I’m really excited for the new protected cross-over with Nebraska. Do I still harbor a little bitterness about the way we were “welcomed” into the conference? Probably, but that was long ago and in a totally different time for college sports.
My preference is for a strong B1G that adds Notre Dame and at least one other big-time school. I just don’t want to see the conference big wigs dither around and end up being forced to go to 16 with only the leavings of the other three super-confs to choose from.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
by PSU_Buch on Sep 19, 2011 10:36 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Nope
I don’t care what reasoning is used…“but basketball!”, “but rivalries!”, “but geographics!”…I don’t want PSU joining the ACC. I’d rather try to be a big fish in the B1G pond than complacently eating all the minnows in the ACC puddle.
Luring recruits with my new "Posting HD" scheme since '08.
by 06Lion on Sep 19, 2011 12:27 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I would consider a move to the ACC
I agree it won’t happen, but I don’t think we need to have any special allegiance to the Big Ten. They treated PSU like garbage when they came into the league in the early 90s.
Whether it is more money here or there, I don’t know, but of course the ACC would also have its own conference network that would bring in a ton of money so I think that is a wash. And I would like PSU’s chances of competing for national championships in football more frequently because the ACC isn’t the strongest conference. Basketball would be awesome, although it would only differ on which teams blow us out.
I have a feeling if you did a survey
by age group it’d come out that those over say, 30 or so, don’t care much about the B1G and those under 30ish are happy in the B1G. I grew up with PSU as an independent and remember the animosity we felt when we joined the B1G but now I’m way over it. I think we’re a full-fledged member and can’t see us anywhere else. The addition of Nebraska just solidifies that.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
by RWReese on Sep 19, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That makes sense
I’m in the over 30 group that does remember the independent days and the process of joining the Big Ten. I’m not saying I hold a grudge but I have noticed that it was completely different for PSU than went Nebraska was seemingly welcomed with open arms. I selfishly would have liked to see Pitt and Penn State in the same league playing every year. I understand that doesn’t matter to some but I would enjoy that, and it looks like the only way that is happening now is if PSU went to the ACC. So basically there’s no chance.
by mundyscorner99 on Sep 19, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I like the BiG, liked the fact PSU got in when the Big East decided to do its bb thing
and have always felt, tough tooties, when thinking about Pitt and the monumental mistake they made by not having an all sports eastern conference., over 50 by the way. And I don’t know a single fan that I know, and most are over 40 that don’t feel the same way. All now like the BiG and, yeah, there is that, I wish this could have happened, but it didn’t and I’ve moved on. I like playing the eastern rivals on a rotating basis and not having a long term with any. I don’t feel in minority, either.
My grammer skills need improved.
Good point
I was 3-4 when PSU joined the Big Ten and really didn’t get into PSU sports til 2005/2006 so I’ve only ever known Penn State as a Big Ten member.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
Pitt
I frankly don’t care about playing them. Maybe that’s because I have only been a fan since 1981.
Personally I love the B1G-but tht could be partly due to my wife whose dad graduated from Michigan. Thus we hated tO$U even before 1993. We also now have a healthy dislike of Michigan.
"You can't handle the truth!"
The Pitt rivalry will never be the same unless they are in the same conference
And maybe not even then. Living somewhere pretty much in the middle of State College and Pittsburgh, there is always some healthy trash-talking between fans of both sides. As stated, I understand not everyone feels that way, but it seems like plenty of people get really excited about old “rivalries” like Alabama, Syracuse, Notre Dame, etc. in recent years…but the prospect of renewing the rivalry with the school PSU has played more than any other would definitely interest me more. I’ll be happy when they play in a few years.
by mundyscorner99 on Sep 19, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Is the B1G really that much better than the ACC academically?
The CIC might have a bigger impact on research funding, but the academic reputations of the institutions appear to be pretty similar, if not slightly better in the ACC. I don’t see why a CIC-like entity in the ACC couldn’t eventually be just as successful as the Big 10 counterpart.
All of the members
are AAU members (except for Nebraska who lost it the MOMENT they were admitted into the B1G). Yeah, the B1G schools are pretty high academically and especially research-wise.
"Illegitimus non Carborundum!" (Don't let the bastards wear you down)
by RWReese on Sep 19, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
its not
only if you base everything on the AAU. I hate to say it but as far as undergraduate education goes the ACC is just as good and maybe better over-all. Big 10 definitely has over-all better engineering programs but the ACC is pretty solid academically.
http://www.beyondusports.com/acc-top-bcs-conference-academic-rankings/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/406659-academic-rankings-and-conference-realignments
average rankings by conference
the only thing holding the ACC back is that it has a number of “smaller” private schools not focusing on graduate research so research dollars are less. The positive impact of having large amounts of graduate research on undergraduate education can be debated at length.
http://www.mrsec.com/2010/06/the-academics-of-expansion-a-conference-comparison/
Although these rankings don't include the Big 10's best school.
As far as I am aware, as a former member the University of Chicago is included in all of the academic agreements between the Big 10 schools. That said, I still see the slight edge going to the ACC.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 19, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think it is so much a prestige thing as it is a $$$ thing.
And the big research schools are gonna generate a TON more $$$ than even the best small liberal arts college.
by The JuggerNitt on Sep 19, 2011 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
PSU fits the profile
of the majority of the institutions of the B1G. But I still don’t think we’re a midwestern school. Think about where the Penn State students and (since everything is about football) football players come from. We’re from the major metropolitan areas of the mid-Atlantic states. I’ve never been to Nebraska. I’ve never been in Iowa. Frankly, I’d be happy never setting foot in much of B1G country. On the other hand, I have friends, family, and former classmates throughout the ACC footprint.
It will never happen, though. Oh well.
by ChrisHarrell's_stache05 on Sep 19, 2011 4:36 PM EDT reply actions
totally agree
I’d have a lot more fun rooting for PSU as part of the ACC playing the likes of Pitt, Maryland, VTech every year than playing Iowa, Northwester, or Wisconsin.
Haven't had time to read the entire thread
So this may be a re-hash.
But how would moving to the ACC benefit Penn State? Academically, the only better conference for PSU is the Ivy League. Athletically, while the Big Ten is “down” in football right now, it still makes a ton of money each year and I don’t see how trading annual games with Ohio State and Wisconsin for Pitt and Syracuse is better for us. Even if Notre Dame joins, the ACC is full of a bunch of football has-beens or teams that are hyped every year but can’t seem to get over the hump. In basketball, we’d just be that much further down in the pecking order… I just don’t see the benefit to joining the ACC.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Sep 19, 2011 5:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Because I am having fun with this thread
not necessarily because it’s what I believe, let me play Devil’s Advocate and try to answer your questions.
In the scenario described above, we would not be trading games with O$U and Wisky for Pitt/Syr; rather we would be trading them for games against VaTech, Notre Dame, and/or FSU or Miami and replacing match-ups with Iowa, Illinois and Northwestern with the aforementioned Panthers and Orangemen (refuse to use the silly truncated mascot) along with BC and Maryland.
An objective observer could easily read “a bunch of football has-beens or teams that are hyped every year but can’t seem to get over the hump” and think you were talking about the Big Ten. Just sayin…
As to basketball, I hear what you’re saying about the pecking order, but from a recruiting standpoint, might it not benefit Penn State to be seen more often by recruits up and down the Eastern seaboard? Coach Chambers and co. are going to have to make their hay (at least for awhile) by scoring big with a few imperfect kids who the big-ticket programs pass up. I feel like the ACC footprint gets PSU in front of more of those types of kids than the B1G’s.
Bottom line, how would the move benefit Penn State? Assuming the ACC kept all of it current members and completed the move to 16 by adding PSU and ND (meaning neither would be part of an eventual 16-team B1G), I could see it as the type of big picture move that vaulted that new superconference to another level, dipping into the fertile recruiting grounds of Florida and the South, while leveraging the media muscle of the Boston-to-DC mega-corridor. So many on this site, and in the fanbase in general, demand that Penn State make the big splash post-Paterno. Considering that a world of four, 16-team superconfs will look different than anything we’ve known, the most stable, logical home for PSU might be one that aligns with an East Coast sensibility as opposed to a heavy Midwest focus.
Now, having said all that, I’m personally happy with the Big Ten and hoping that, if Alignmegeddon really is upon us, the B1G adds some relevant new programs and remains strong and stable. I also recognize that PSU seems very comfortable in the conference and isn’t going anywhere, regardless of what I, or any other fans, think. It’s a fun exercise to go through though, I think. I mean, what else are we going to do, talk about Directional Michigan East?
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
To the first point...
I used Pitt/Syracuse as the games we were trading for because of your assertion in the OP that fans want to see those traditional rivalries restored (though I understand the point you made in this post). As far as has-beens are concerned, the Big Ten has put more teams in MNC games this decade than the ACC hasn’t had a team in a title game since FSU in 2000 (Miami and Va. Tech both made it as members of the Big East) and both FSU and Miami have been a shell of their former selves since 2002 really. I dunno, I just think the Big Ten offers more football prestige.
As far as basketball goes, who’s going to choose PSU if they’re in the ACC and have little hope of winning a title while they’re there? Given a choice between PSU in the B10 or ACC, I’d go w/ PSU in the B10 because they have a better chance at competing year in and year out.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
Remember when
Bobby Bowden said in a press conference that BCS stood for “Bowden Championship Series,” then the Seminoles promptly went out and got pounded by Oklahoma in the championship game and never went back?
That was awesome.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
by PSU_Buch on Sep 21, 2011 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry to burst anyone's bubble...
But PSU isn’t leaving the Big Ten. Neither is any of the other 11 teams. Zero chance. Literally zero, not figuratively. Not with Notre Dame to the ACC. Not at all.
Why? Look at this article from the NYT. I’ll quote the relevant part:
The Big Ten and Pac-12 members have signed grants of rights, which basically give all of the television rights from each university’s sports to the conference for a specified number of years. If a member switches conferences, the rights cannot be transferred.
The Big Ten has had this arrangement since 1988, the year before Commissioner Jim Delany arrived. The Pac-12 members did so, soon after Scott took office.
In a phone interview on Friday, Delany said the Big Ten had extended the grant of rights in 2007 for either 20 or 25 years. That he could not remember says a lot about how secure the league is. When the Big 12 situation is settled, it will make sense for the A.C.C. and the Big East to push their members to make such a commitment.
So, until 2027 or 2032 at the earliest, the Big Ten controls all of Penn State’s television rights. They control PSU’s rights even if PSU leaves the conference. I somehow doubt that Penn State would be willing to be in the ACC and allow the Big Ten to do whatever the hell it wants with all their broadcast rights. I also doubt the ACC would be all that interested in bringing in PSU without having access to their TV rights for 15+ years.
And I doubt the Big Ten would be willing to give up those rights without a massive payout. Far more that any pitiful exit fee. We’re probably talking 100’s of millions of dollars.
Not going to happen.
by Laaaaazzz on Sep 19, 2011 10:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Great Find
Thanks for posting. As I said, I viewed the conversation mostly as an academic exercise, but this certainly does preclude probably even that. So here’s hoping they can scrounge up something a little more exciting than Baylor and K-State!
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
If this is true, then I think we're screwed
What PSU_Busch is really asking is for us to look into the future. Not now, now how much we’re getting now, but the state of the B1G 10 years from now (see what I did there?).
I just read Dan Wetzel’s column on why Notre Dame should jump to the ACC and uh, it’s not looking good.
In short
Pac -12 acquires Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State.
SEC: Texas A&M and maybe West Virginia
ACC: Syracuse and PITT, considering Notre Dame and…
Big 12 and Big East may merge.
B1G : Rutgers and Mizzou (seriously, are you effing serious that these are our serious choices?). Maybe Notre Dame and extension into the midwest.
I implore all of you to look at those choices and see which will be the four mega conferences. Keep Wetzel’s bullet points in mind and ask whether the B1G will be able to sustain their money going into the next decade because spreading out into the midwest does not lend itself to a growing market.
by Mr. Rosewater on Sep 20, 2011 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Ugh
Doesn’t paint a particularly pretty picture. The assumption in B1G country has always been, “wait around, and inevitability will eventually do its work to bring in Notre Dame.” Everything in this article reinforces my fear that Jim Delaney got caught asleep at the switch during Round 2 of expansion. The worst case scenario has ND heading to the ACC with Rutgers, then Mizzou and WVU to the SEC, leaving the B1G, which could have prevented this by thinking bigger last Summer, to settle for Danny DeVito from ‘Twins’ to get with the program and get 16.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
I disagree
No big dominoes have fallen yet. Once Texas or Oklahoma moves, then things will get serious, but TAMU, Pitt and Syracuse are the appetizers. Delaney is saving room for his entree.
by kijana's acl on Sep 20, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope you're right
I just know this next round of expansion will be for keeps, and I’m getting antsy from the lack of information. I guess there is still a serious possibility that the B1G and SEC will swoop in and pick the ACC over on its Northern and Southern flanks.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
I have full faith in Delaney
He didn’t overplay his hand last time, and he’s too smart to be caught sleeping. The Big 10 will be fine. Plus why should the Big 10 expand if we’re not adding good schools to our conference? How will the other conferences expanding negatively affect the Big 10? It’d be a worse move for the Big Ten to water down the conference with Rutgers than it would be to stay at 12 members imo. We still have 4 huge programs in the conference, and 3-4 well known programs.
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
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by Kyle_Martin on Sep 20, 2011 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have full faith in Delaney
except when it comes to hiring a marketing firm.
"It's never a bad thing thing to vote for the suckiness of tOSU." -RWReese
Follow @Paige2PSU
A&M and WVU vs Rutgers and Mizzou sounds like a wash and who and why does the BiG even have to grow, with the teams it has.
I still doubt the ACC will let ND run roughshod over the TV rights thing, which would be the only reason they don’t go to the BiG. Probably already stated by Delaney, sorry ND, we own your TV rights, as we do all our schools.
Another point, with ala cart TV eventually working its way to a dish near you, despite Comcasts lobbying efforts, I could see the BiG taking over more of its own TV broadcasting. The BiG Channel could be a massive enterprise, rivaling any other sports programing. The Pac 12+ seems to be looking this direction too. Instead of cowtowing to ESPN/Disney, screw them and produce our own. ESPN is already losing ratings points on their non-game shows and the trend will continue as conferences start seeing the money they can make marketing their own product instead of having ESPN hype who they want and not give equal press and coverage to teams that are not in their $$$ interests.
My grammer skills need improved.
if speculation is correct
that the power conferences are moving toward a model of four, 16-team conferences staging their own de facto playoff system, the B1G will have to expand. Even if that doesn’t happen right away, there will be a lot of pressure on the B1G to grow. In that scenario (no immediate playoff-type structure), I can’t speculate on how the money and politics would play out with the B1G staying at 12. I guess that would be possible. But if we’re looking at 16 teams in the PAC, SEC, and ACC in a couple of years, you know the playoff model is all but inevitable.
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
I see no evidence the SEC is looking at 16 teams because to get there they would have to raid someone else.
They are not taking Kan, KSt. or Baylor. Maybe invite to Mizzou but that only gets them14. I also don’t see where adding SFU would add anything to the SEC even is it is the biggest school in Florida. UF already covers the state. The BiG will expand if it gets the right players, and that would be someone wanting to become a member. It sure seems to me that the BiG already said no to Mizzou once and the only way Rutgers would get in is with ND and that is a big wait and see. ND is still thinking it will get some sweetheart deal from another conference but $$$ is tight now and ND’s product isn’t what it used to be, just ask NBC.
My grammer skills need improved.
As far as football is concerned, I'm not so sure it's a wash
A&M and WVU fan base seem larger, but maybe it’s because they’re more fanatical.
And I don’t think the current B1G 12 schools would constitute a mega conference right now. If ND jumps to the ACC and the ACC, SEC, and Pac 12 go to 16 teams, I expect the B1G to expand definitely.
There could also be the scenario where we’ll have 5 mega conferences. I don’t know why everyone assumes there will be four but I bought into it.
by Mr. Rosewater on Sep 20, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Probably just b/c the math works out more easily with four
"I don't think you can progress in this game unless you know about the past."
-Silas Redd
considering the NYT article Ben linked to in fanshots yesterday
The Big Ten has the programs with the three highest fanbases in the nation, and the most fan viewers of its members BY FAR. It’s not even close. Even with the addition of the four Big 12 schools to the Pac 12, and ND to the ACC, and no new additions to the Big Ten, we would still have the highest number of viewers.
Obviously this is subjective, but with our fanbases, there is no way the Big Ten would be left out.
Fire Dan Snyder
I thought about it
and aside from the fact that it’s not a scientific poll, I think this is one of those statistics that follows current trends rather history. In fact, I really don’t see how Ohio State beats us out. Were they that big in the 90’s?
Another thing is will the survey look the same a decade or so into the future with a new 4 mega conference set up with B1G having the least amount of teams in the most sparsely populated areas? I mean I know it’s difficult to predict the future, but even if we ARE part of the mega 4 (and especially if we don’t expand), I think we’ll have a tough time competing for market viewership and recruits.
by Mr. Rosewater on Sep 20, 2011 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions
The ACC is a weak conference, and is destined to get picked off by the Big Ten and the SEC
They just got new TV contracts, and they’re STILL stuck making second tier money compared to those two conferences (and the Pac-12). Fortunately for them, the current thinking is four major conferences, and not three. Since the Big 12 is dying, the ACC made the right move and turned on the Big East.
Florida State is looking at jumping to the SEC, if asked, as would Clemson. Maryland, Virginia, and Virginia Tech could be candidates for the Big Ten or SEC, and Maryland would jump if asked.
Notre Dame prefers playing USC and Michigan, and has annual games with Michigan State, Purdue, and Navy. That traditional schedule can be maintained in the Big Ten, but not the ACC.
Texas and Texas Tech could join the ACC, making it an equal to the Big Ten, SEC, and Pac-14.
"I wouldn’t trust Craig James to report on sixth-grade volleyball." Stewart Mandel on Craig James, who allegedly killed five hookers while at SMU.
If the B1G is going to expand to 16, I'd love for the B1G to grab Maryland, UVA, VT and ND
to do this just after Pitt moves to the ACC (essentially strip away the closest programs save Syracuse) would be extra sweet.
by kijana's acl on Sep 20, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think ND is the "must get" of the schools available
After that, I think locking up DC/Baltimore should be a priority. I might save slot #16 for Missouri, since we wouldn’t need MD if we have UVA and VT.
I assume Jim Delany has minions analysts who can tell him why one UM is better for the Big Ten than the other UM.
"I wouldn’t trust Craig James to report on sixth-grade volleyball." Stewart Mandel on Craig James, who allegedly killed five hookers while at SMU.
I don't see the need
to expand at all unless they get ND. No one they could get would improve their market share unless they got someone from ACC like Maryland or Virginia, No legit form of crowning a MNC will exist unless BIG is at the table with programs such as Mich, Neb , OSU, and us. In other words all the BIG would do is add more mouths to feed no increase revenue.
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