The "8-10 Plays" Story
by Chris Grovich on Sep 22, 2011 5:18 PM EDT
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PrintSomeone at FOS helpfully went through the video and came up with the following:
-Excluding kneeldowns, spikes, and including two plays which were negated by penalty - Penn State had a total of 70 offensive playcalling opportunities. I think Phil's 8-10 play report is pretty accurate - despite the fact that I ended up with approximately 18-25 different plays. (The range/approximation is due to the fact that several times a receiver ran his route out of the picture, and on others it was difficult to tell if a receiver was running a different route due to the playcall or an onsight adjustment i.e. smash routes, etc).
-Don't be misled by "18-25." Understand this isn't like playing a video game w/only 8-10 plays. There are situational down&distance plays not in the gameplan that can still be run - so this is pure speculation - but IMO plays were used that weren't in the '8-10 play' gameplan. One quick example, with 13 seconds remaining in the first half PSU ran all verticals (SE/FL - go/fly, TE/Slot - seams). Not exactly a play you'd work into the gameplan midweek - just something the coaches would call in end-of-half situations.
-The 18-25 approximation shrinks even further if you eliminate 2 gimmick plays - the end-around to Devon Smith and the lead iso play they where they faked the end-around to Bill Belton - it's not like you can (or should) call those plays multiple times within the game.
-On running plays the only diversification was between formations and personel - not playcalling. For example, by my count PSU ran 11 lead iso's. This was run out of different formations (I, offset-I, bunch) with different personel (2RB1TE2WR, 2WR2TE). Same for that little HB zone dive play (10 times) - different formations/personel but the same aiming point and essentially the same play.
-I logged 5 pass plays that were used atleast 3 times each. Again, for the most part they were run out of different formations w/different personel. Of those 5 plays, the only play utilizing the same formation each time was a version of "levels" (essentially 3 receivers (FL/slot/TE) running digs at varying depths to one side, with the backside receiver (SE) running a slant). Obviously if a play's successful it makes sense to keep coming back to it - IMO the disappointing thing is the lack of diversification w/our receivers not running all the patterns on the route tree.
-One interesting thing was two plays after Moye's 52-yard TD was called back - Penn State ran the same play - only they flipped it to the opposite side - which resulted in an incompletion to Szczerba. (unfortunately this meant they were also running play-action on a 2nd&18).
-Again, w/out understanding variations, checks@the LOS and on-sight adjustments that PSU's offense contains - it's difficult to get a precise number - but I think when you strip it down to the base plays in the gameplan that aren't functions of down&distance - I think an 8-10 play gameplan may be a pretty accurate assessment.
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If so, then bleh
My middle school offense ran more plays than 8-10 of the same plays. That’s…. bad.
Especially the running plays. Given, I wouldn’t expect Penn State to launch the play book against Temple either
"We're going to do all we can to get this team right, to go after that national championship" - Devon Still
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Sep 22, 2011 6:31 PM EDT reply actions
I have to disagree
I mean coming into the game yes, I wouldn’t expect us to launch the playbook. But when we are down in the 4th quarter, and nothing has been working all day, we need to open up the playbook and try something new. It isn’t like we haven’t been practicing those plays. I’m sure they had them ready to go against Bama
Reporter: Can you give us a touchdown celebration, one that you would get penalized for?
Moye: I play at Penn State. I don’t celebrate.
Seems like a lot of qualifications to me. So he found around 20 plays. But oh if you exclude these plays that I choose to exclude I can make it look like 8.
Frankly I don’t care how many plays we ran. The number of plays ran wasn’t the problem. It was the execution, and yes the rhythm of the plays called.
Also people seem to neglect we had over 300 yards of offense on Saturday. Which really isn’t that terrible.
by psuwresfan on Sep 22, 2011 6:36 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
A couple of things
-300 yards a game is pretty terrible. Our 306 yards a game average right now puts us at 103rd in the nation out of 120 schools. Last year, we averaged 372 yards a game and were 68th in the country as far as yards per game was concerned. Our current average would have placed us 106th last season.
-Whether its 8-10 plays, or 20 plays, the playbook is oversimplified.
-You can talk “execution” all you want, but on Saturday we ran the ball to the short-side of the field over 80% of the time, and all Temple had to do was slant their D-Line that way to stop us (and they did, which led to our 2.6 ypc). Our line, as good/bad as they may be, aren’t being put in a position to execute successfully right now.
by OmarLittle on Sep 22, 2011 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m just saying 300 yards a game imo should equal more than 14 points.
I don’t really buy the oversimplified offense argument. Watch georgia tech, their option run game doesn’t really have that many plays. They ran for 400+ yards last week.
GT's offense has a ton of subtleties to it. It's not just option-left and option-right.
by Chris Grovich on Sep 23, 2011 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Some of those subtleties are what excluded this guy you quoted in your post from counting plays as different plays. Just saying.
Sorry yea that was poorly written.
Basically the argument is that we ran 8 – 10 plays. This guy says he watched the film and saw 25 plays. But if you exclude little variations it gets down to 8 – 10.
I’m saying you can’t ignore that argument when talking about GT’s offense. If you remove the subtle changes it’s probably 8 – 10 base plays.
The subtelties...
of an offense like GT’s are all about QB reads and making the defense “think” instead of just reacting. It’s rather genius that a “simple” offense like that is actually rather “complex” and requires a ton of practice to make it work.
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 23, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, thank you
When GT runs a triple option, the quarterback could stick it in the fullback’s gut, keep it, or pitch out out to the tailback. When we run a halfback isolation to the shortside, it’s just one thing. One horrifically predictable, easy to stop, thing.
by OmarLittle on Sep 23, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Making the defense commit to stopping something, then doing something totally different?
by Chris Grovich on Sep 23, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
And maybe I have a bad memory
but I’ve watched all the games this season and I don’t know if I could count on 1 hand how many “at the line” adjustments either QB has made. That kind of seems to be a criticism of both QB’s. They run the play that was called and doesn’t matter what’s happening around them or what the defense is doing. I think it was during the Temple game they had a run play called and it was an obvious Temple blitz. Man coverage on the outside and instead of checking out to take advantage of the big play opportunity, Bolden kept the running play and I think it went for a loss or minimal gain. The announcer pointed this out as well and didn’t seem to understand why they wouldn’t have changed the play.
McGloin
seems to be the guy who checks at the line. At least as far as I have noticed.
So this is the point when he looks the nose tackle in the eye and says
“be ready, this one might be coming to you”?
by kijana's acl on Sep 23, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
McQueary says our QBs do not change pass routes at the line
Tonight’s radio show had a caller who asked about this, and Red said they don’t make changes at the line in any pass routes, period. That’s how they do it.
What will they think of next?
Elizabeth, with Vin Scully, only folks working longer than JoePA at same place!
by joefromboalsburg on Sep 22, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
that is odd. I have a hard time believing it was like that when Collins played at PSU.
It's not a matter of how many plays you "run".....
it’s a matter of who runs them…..Collins et. al. vs. this and last years team?….The ‘94 Team could run the same 8-10 plays per game and average 450 yds/game…it’s just the personnel…..my opinion, that’s all.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Sep 22, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
True, but that type of talent will never be assembled at PSU again. Once in a lifetime.
by Chris Grovich on Sep 22, 2011 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
And
execution. You didn’t see Brady and Engram drop many passes. The frustrating thing is Moye has made some spectacular catches (NFL-esque) the past couple of years. Brown is underachieving so far….
I have faith they will come around though; I mean Brackett couldn’t catch a cold as a TE, then when he shifted to WR last year he was a primary target (of Bolden that is…McGloin preferred Moye and/or Suhey/Zordich in the flat).
Kerry did what he wanted, with Fran's mild blessing.
by Chris Grovich on Sep 22, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
There you go...it's the talent alright.
Just look at the QB situation since DC17 graduated….Look away it’s hideous! All cheap shots aside, Devlin left, Kevin Newsome never was more than a “tuck and run” Qb, Robo wanted to get out, McGloin is what he is—-a walk-on, shadow team Qb and Paul Jones, whom I think is the best of them all(easy for me to say since he’s never played in anger) may never make the grade. Hey there’s Skylar next year and even Shane this year! What a revolting development WE ARE in. And the B1G is just around the EMU corner AND we haven’t passed for a TD yet and….I’m goin to bed.
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God." The Government is like the Mob, you can check out, but never leave.
by DerryPharmer on Sep 22, 2011 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Really????
Are they the only team in D1 who doesn’t do that? And I don’t know, maybe I’m making too big of a deal out of it…but doesn’t that seem like a big deal?!?! How can you not give QB’s the opportunity to make a change at the line. So then that brings up this question….do the QB’s even know how to read a defense?? I believe the point of being able to switch a play at the line of scrimmage is that the QB checks the Dfense and then if they feel another play might work better, they can change the play. So then do the QB’s go up to the line and even check the D? Or do they just go up, read the defense, and go “well, hope this play works against this blitz”….
I think it’s pretty common for teams not to check at the line in College Football. At least all the college football I’ve watch that’s what I see.
You see some of the elite qbs do it, and there a handful of teams that go up to the line then the coaches set the play from the sideline. Which is essentially the same thing since they’re waiting to see the D line up.
But I don’t remember Robinson, or Clark checking at the line that much, and some how nobody had a problem with it then.
This came up a few years ago, too
I remember Jay talking about how QB14 didn’t have any freedom to change the play at the line, and how Clark may have had more freedom to audible. Not sure if this was the case and they just reverted with the new starter(s), but yeah, seems a tad bit, uh, inefficient.
by Truck O'Saurus on Sep 23, 2011 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions
8-10 plays
How many did we have in 2008 at Ohio State? At Michigan in 2007?
My point is that on the road, we typically throw out half or more of our playbook. For better or for worse that’s the way we play on the road when Joe thinks we’re playing a solid team. I don’t see it as a reflection of this offense’s problems as much as I see the lack of execution of those 8-10 plays.
Anyway, the flashlights eat our human power grids, our souls if you will. So i destroyed them, and if a few precious panties were burnt or soiled in the reckoning then so be it
8 to 10 plays
I believe Oregon has less than 20 plays in their playbook, yet they have a rather good offense. An offense that to be contained typically requires elite/NFL level talent on the defensive line (OSU in the Rose Bowl, Auburn in the MNC, and LSU this year). It’s all about execution. If your offensive line can win the battle, you don’t need a whole heck of a variety of plays. I don’t think Urban Meyer’s play book at Florida was all that complex either.
I do think PSU could benefit from some more formation variety so as to disguise which play is coming.
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 23, 2011 10:24 AM EDT reply actions
To regurgitate the points above re: Georgia Tech, the Oregon offense and the Meyer offense allow for options within the same play. Whereas a halfback isolation to the short-side is a halfback isolation to the short-side.
Execution is nice to have, but when your asking offensive line to block in the same direction (80% of the time against Temple, evidently) and the opponent knows that and correspondingly slants their defensive line that direction, it’s very difficult to execute.
This may sound absurd to some, but I’m not sure Conlin-Rivera-Greely-Hartings-Johnson does well at all with the playbook we used last Saturday. Blocking is all about leverage, and even a line of All-American future NFLers would have failed to impress when the opposing D-Line has the knowledge to beat them to the point of attack.
I think the offensive line..
is so bad, that they only thing can run that will gain positive yards, even if it is only 2 yards, is that HB Iso play. I don’t think the coaches think the o-line can execute a pitch or sweep play.
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 23, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I think I read somewhere last year
That they run 4 plays. Just out of different formations
Formerly known as kmart93
@kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Sep 23, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that is right,
but I wasn’t sure and didn’t want to put it too low.
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 23, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
No, it's much, much more complex than that.
by Chris Grovich on Sep 23, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
That's not that complex...
Kelly has stated that they have very few plays that they practice repeatedly so that they can run his “up-tempo” style. The article even quotes the fact that they’ve run one play 122 times.
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 23, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Mike Leach
This is from his book. I don’t think PSU’s offense does this enough to defenses: “Give a defender cause for indecision and you just made him play slow. You can have the greatest technique, and all of the strength and speed in the world, but those things are negated if you hesitate. When a guy hesitates, it can be as bad as busting a play.”
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 23, 2011 1:36 PM EDT reply actions
Generally at the same time.
"I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship.
These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."
"You don't want to analyze it...you want to admire it!" - Play by play guy on O.J. McDuffie TD catch against Ga. Tech.
by Esteban d' Amur on Sep 23, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it shocking that we don't check receiver's routes?
It’s the same thing with our defense – when a blitz is called, it is ran – they never “check out”.
We have little tranquility but tons of tranquilizers.
Well if we would just let our players practice for more than 20 hours a week, maybe they will learn more than 10 plays
That’s accusing other schools of…yeah, you catch my drift
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