Why I think we are, where we are.
Everyone has written this Fanpost (except me). I get it. So feel free to disregard it. I originally intended to bury it in the Fanposts, but I couldn't get the format to work out, so here it goes. It's also too long. It's based upon my thoughts over the past few months, and I wrote it now because the recent explanations of how the Board of Trustee's worked led me to believe that I could finally put something together that was based upon knowledge and facts, rather than "if this, then what" speculation. Some speculation is impossible to avoid, but I tried to frame it in the context of what has been revealed to date.
As this gets further and further out from zero hour, some of the information that has come forward has been helpful (the article about the BOTs) some wildly hyped, and not terribly telling (the preliminary hearing) but one thing that I have noticed, is that while old information gets rehashed nearly daily, not much new has come out.
The lack of new information is good and bad, I think it means that it is unlikely that we'll ever hear a Joe Paterno side of the story that makes us feel better. I also think that the nonsensical "Second Mile as brothel story", which was wholly invented by Mark Madden in Pittsburgh, is also very unlikely to have any legs. I think we probably know about 85 to 90 percent of what we’re ever going to know.
Aside from Jerry Sandusky being a walking episode of SVU, what do you think caused the problem?
After reading the "standing orders" of the Board of Trustees (hereinafter BOT) and how they related to the communication and dissemination between the University Administration and the BOT, I'm going to go with a catastrophic failure of Orwellian Bureaucracy.
We don’t know whether or not Joe Paterno followed up. But based on a review of the standing orders we know that if he had, he would have met with substantial resistance within the Administration, and a flat stone wall had he gone to the BOT. Earlier I was quick to blame Curley, or even Schultz, but the clear (and almost sole authority) on an issue of this magnitude rests in Spanier’s office. That’s not my opinion, that’s University policy, as set forth by the BOT in their own "standing orders".
The system worked as well as it was designed to, but appears to have been failed by increasingly watered down accounts of Mike McQueary’s report. The system is supposed to work like a circuit, moving the information along the line to the President , it did. However, it’s obvious that too much of McQuerary’s original report leaked in the transmission (I’m sure there is an engineering term for it).
Moreover, when everybody follows a policy, and the wrong result is reached, I think you have to look at the policy. I think that applying this policy to the Sandusky Scandal is like trying to retrofit a Mack truck for use in space travel. It’s clear that nobody ever considered this eventuality, and why would you? By definition, the vast majority of the University Community is of legal age. I do not think that it is fair to have assumed that there would be a policy in place to deal with something like this, especially how it initially presented.
So what about Joe Paterno he absolutely should have been fired/retained, right?
Okay, let’s think about what we know, in the context of the BOT "standing orders".
A] As to Joe Paterno’s role in the circuit. He performed it, and moreover, none of the leakage that caused the overall failure can be attributed to Paterno. McQueary admits that he gave Paterno a watered down version of events. Paterno had a meeting with Curley within 24 hours of the report, and finally, he put McQueary in a room with Schultz and Curley. What Paterno was told is a "red herring", in that McQueary’s reports to Schultz and Curley (who are then supposed to subsequently report to Spanier) is the operative report. A huge part of this controversy stems from McQueary’s decision to talk with some of his "mentors" before taking a final course of action. I think that McQueary approached Paterno at least as much as a mentor, and to be told what to do next. Paterno acted in that way, and put McQueary in a position to make the report directly to the relevant superiors. However, McQueary would have been just as right to go to Curley directly.
In short, in the context of a set of rules that were clearly not designed to handle this type of situation, Joe Paterno did exactly what he was supposed to do. But here is the controversy…
B ] The public perception that Joe Paterno was a essentially a fail safe switch that was entitled/designed and indeed obligated to override all other actors if there was a problem;
- Initially, this is clearly not the case. There is no "unless Joe Paterno says so" exception that I am aware of. Joe Paterno’s position is in the context of the University structure. Many have argued, "that’s bull-shit, Joe Paterno hired his boss". Yes he did, but that’s not relevant, because Curley’s place in the organizational structure remains above Paterno, and it is Curley, not Paterno, that is responsible to make the report to Spanier. Further, I would argue that Paterno "hired his boss" for exactly this type of situation. Joe Paterno (as is Mike McQueary) is a football coach, not a University Administrator, and this matter would have been properly handled by University Administration under the best of circumstances.
- I think that there is a fundamental misunderstanding in the difference between the Athletic Director and the Football Coach. I think it’s based on two things, one, once upon a time it was not uncommon for the Football Coach to have a dual role (it is still common at the High School level) and two, Joe Paterno was the Athletic Director at Penn State (although that was more than 30 years ago). The premise of the Athletic Director being a University Administrator is so that there is a clear demarcation that the athletic department is beholden to the University President, rather than being an autonomous organization. As a result, I think there is a relevant connection to the NCAA’s investigation in to "lack of institutional control". I believe that had Joe Paterno attempted to unilaterally discipline Sandusky, it would have actually flown in the face of his superiors, lending credence to the theory that football team does whatever it wants, rather that it being beholden to University Policy. Despite the fact that their policy ultimately failed.
- I believe that it’s unfair to demand that somebody take an action so wildly out of the chain of command. Had he, it would have been clear grounds for termination. Additionally, how was he supposed to know to exercise this power? There is no obligation for superiors to report down the chain of command. This means that Joe Paterno would never have expected to receive reports from anybody about this situation, because nobody was obligated to give them to him. Given the organizational structure, "I didn’t hear anything after that" is exactly what you’d expect.
Of course, all that being said, on November 8th the house was on fire and we were arguing over which buckets of water to throw on it. Right, wrong or indifferent is nuts to think that Paterno could have finished off the season as head coach, and that’s notwithstanding the fact that he has lung cancer. I don’t think that’s fair, but "fair" isn’t the sole arbiter of what needs to happen. Also, I think it’s pre-mature to think that the University is using him as a scape-goat, they haven’t accused him of any wrong doing. Their failure as it relates to Joe Paterno is a failure to come forward and debunk that Joe Paterno as "fail-safe" reporter theory. But the University's investigation remains pending, and we’ll see how it ends. The media is an external force in this situation that Penn State can’t control, and it is acting in ways that are forcing Penn State to make decisions it wishes it didn’t have to. That sucks, but it’s a recognition of reality that we all have to live with.
But the BOT, Rodney Erickson and especially Dave Joyner (collectively "those guys") are all ass-holes right?
I can’t go there yet. It’s impossible for me to hate the "I know what I would have done" backlash as it relates to what Joe Paterno did and didn’t do in 2002, yet be dead certain what I would have done as it relates to firing him in 2011. That’s a logical inconsistency that doesn’t fly with me, but that doesn’t mean I’m on board with what they did.
I think that those guys were in a tough spot and had to deal with two separate and distinct contingencies. The rabble from without, and the rabble from within. Concessions to either contingency make the other contingency enraged, so in short, it’s a perfect shit storm of "no possible way to win".
If you triage the situation in November 2011, step one is take this from a certified 11 out of 10 on the media fire-storm scale and try to get it at least back on the charts. Is it possible that a more public disavowment of Curley and Schultz (as opposed to letting them step down in near silence on a Sunday night) might have moved the meter a little more? Possibly. Perhaps, an explanation of the "standing orders" and Spanier’s responsibility thereto might have helped as well. But to what end? Do you essentially admit fault to save an 85 year old football coach who, at best, has four more games left? And it probably doesn’t work anyway? You may not like the decision, but you’ve got to at least see the logic.
Complaining about the mechanics of how Paterno was fired is similar to complaining about the wrapping paper on a shit sandwich. Yeah, that sucked too, but it’s hardly the point.
So now what, do you have any ideas?
A few. Child Sexual Assault is pretty unforeseeable on a University Campus, but sexual assault is not only foreseeable, it’s quite common. It happens everywhere, it’s under reported everywhere, and it’s misunderstood everywhere. It’s a pretty touchy subject, loaded with "he said, she said" and vast expanses of grey area. So my initial suggestions are two fold;
- First, a new department of University Policing and security should be created. The head of this department reports directly to the University President, and should be required to issue quarterly reports, directly the BOT as it relates to any and all criminal activity on campus.
- Second, within that department is what I’m going to call Penn State SVU. Every University employee, down to the friggin’ residence hall R.A.’s should be required to report any incident of sexual assault or mistreatment that comes to their attention to PSU-SVU within 12 hours.
Second, I think that if by the Blue/White game nothing has come out to further implicate Joe Paterno in this, he should be reinstated has Head Coach effective the date of his firing, with his resignation being accepted as of January 2, 2012. It should be accompanied by a commendation for meritorious service for his 60 years at the school, and a manner of recognition that failures at the University level contributed to a scandal that harmed him a great deal.
Some final thoughts?
9/11 wasn’t an inside job, Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, and the Sandusky Scandal was caused by a bureaucratic SNAFU that was brought on by a long chain of mistakes and goofy facts that are unique to Penn State but that I don’t think were caused by evil intent. In all three instances, you’re confronted with a bad event, and a desire to make it more than a lone nut, or poorly constructed University standard operating procedures.
There is a show on the History Channel called "Engineering Disasters", and it explained how something like sports arena collapsing under the weight of snow could be allowed to occur. In most of the instances, you have a mistake, coupled with opportunities to correct the mistake that get missed, coupled with bad luck. So it goes with this disaster.
I think the criminal cases will more than likely be resolved with an unsatisfying whimper, most likely a plea to a reduced charge, something nominal. What will dictate this is a final determination of what the cause of the "loss of signal" between McQueary and Spanier was.
I think Schultz’s story will be "I am the cops" and "I investigated, and didn’t find anything to substantiate the claim". Ironically (possibly unfortunately) Sandusky backs this up, he said Schultz called him and he gave him the name of the kid. To date, the 2002 incident lacks a complaining witness, if there wasn’t one then, what do you do? Ban him from bringing kids to the facilities and give the Second Mile a heads up is at least a start. And an opportunity that the Second Mile pretty clearly fumbled.
I can’t speak to the failures at the Second Mile, except to say, they seem to be exponentially greater than ours. Penn State was in no position to control access to kids, only to it’s facilities, which it did (no subsequent witness or victim has alleged that Sandusky hurt them on Campus after 2002, which makes sense given that Sandusky was operating on a pretty high level).
At the end of it all, I think it’s much easier to take responsibility for something when you know it’s your responsibility. Penn State is guilty of fostering an environment of no responsibility, and that’s a pretty bad thing.
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However, it’s obvious that too much of McQuerary’s original report leaked in the transmission (I’m sure there is an engineering term for it).
As a civil engineer, I would characterize it as "head loss". The more bends, etc. in a pipe system, the greater the reduction in pressure by the time you get to the end. So what should have been a raging geyser of sewage in Old Main presumably ended up as a trickle of sour milk.
Consider this my official declaration of non-support of child molestation.
by 06Lion on Jan 10, 2012 4:19 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
This was the word I was looking for.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I still hate the media !
They poured fuel on the fire and continue to fan it – to this very day.
Pennlive
posted a lengthy article about JS being spotted in the president’s box at the Illinois game for JoePa’s record breaking 409th. victory.
Later they posted a one sentence retraction, whoops, it was Joyner.
Media Scum !
wait, it was not Sandusky?
Cause that is kind of a big deal…
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
No, they're saying Joyner wasn't there, but Sandusky was.
by Chris Grovich on Jan 12, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
Well if it's sources than it's got to be true
My sources tell me Cory Geiger smells of bologna and Craig James killed five hookers.
Striving for Success with Honor
by Frank O'Brien on Jan 12, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Stop saying things like that about bologna!
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 12, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You're kidding me, right?
I remembered seeing that and being shocked that it wasn’t bigger news. I actually saw it reported as “Joyner stood/sat right next to Sandusky in the box at the Illinois game.” So am I to understand that isn’t true?
See… this is why I don’t read the newspaper. Because it’s garbage.
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
I would also respectfully suggest...
that they institute a program that trains university employees on how to deal with these issues (e.g. if you see somebody in the shower with a boy, call 911). It’s the old "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure).
Joseph V. Paterno has left an impression on my soul that wil never, EVER go away.
by GoodOleDays on Jan 10, 2012 4:32 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The goal of my suggestions above was to come with something less finite.
The Sandusky situation is an outlier. With no preventative measures, it’s unlikely to happen again. So the goal is to come up with something that might actually do some good, rather than addressing this one instance.
Sexual assault on campus is a huge problem, and not just at Penn State, but everywhere. For too long, rather than take preventative measures, and investigate claims, a culture of “that doesn’t happen here” takes effect. I think it needs to be taken beyond this one simple instance, and become more of a culture of trying to make sure your sexual partner is actually willing before having sex with them.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I assure you every man, woman, and pet on campus
now know what to do in this type of situation. The lesson has been told for the past 2 months.
No, no they don't
I have yet to see anything to change my college’s policy, which is report up, and let them handle it.
And I am not really sure who I would report to, sadly.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
Well as we see from many of M1EK's arguments and media for that matter
Apparently it doesn’t matter what is written. I can envision people now over reporting and the pendulum swinging heavily to just tell everybody.
by The Booster on Jan 10, 2012 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
Clearly if I experience anything
I should just start calling everyone and anyone according to M1EK.
Hope Obama’s digits still are online, since I would need to call him as well as after the chief of police in every district within a 30 county area and the governor of PA (maybe not him) and the head’s of the FBI and CIA. Maybe NSA as well.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
by AriesGD on Jan 10, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Don't be unreasonable.
You are not famous (or at least I don’t think you are). All the media are asking us to do as a society is adopt a commonly accepted moral obligation to vigilantism proportional to one’s celebrity.
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
by PSU_Buch on Jan 10, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
In my head I am famous
Does that count?
Or should whenever a student comes to me with a problem, that might be serious, I should just go Walker Texas Ranger all over some candy ass’s?
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
That's what the righteous have been saying
all through this… What they’re forgetting is we live in a very offended society nowadays that will sue for anything. The righteous will quickly become the poor and homeless.
Whatever happened
To the good old days when we just had regular vigilatism?
You make some very great points.
I think the most valuable part of this piece is your conclusion:
At the end of it all, I think it’s much easier to take responsibility for something when you know it’s your responsibility. Penn State is guilty of fostering an environment of no responsibility, and that’s a pretty bad thing.
Regardless of your opinions on this matter, I think the most valuable goal from this incident should be to make sure it never happens again. Placing responsibility should be the undeniable outcome in an effort to prevent something like this from ever happening again.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 10, 2012 4:34 PM EST reply actions
I get the sentiment, but in a lot of ways I disagree...
The media has done an awful lot of “placing responsibility” that has done nothing but distract everyone from bigger and more important failures than anything JoePa did. Placing responsibility (i.e., blaming), I would argue, has been the single biggest thing to halt progress on actually addressing the real issues that caused this situation.
And jesse, I agree with you a lot, but this was not a SNAFU “unique to Penn State.”
All the “placing responsibility” and assumptions that this failure was a function of PSU’s culture (i.e., that there’s something unique about Penn State) are really just ways for the average person to insulate themselves from the truth…
The truth is, there’s nothing unique about what happened at Penn State and although there may be some people that are more responsible for how long it took to come out, it is much more constructive to understand why everyone did not do more than it is to place blame on them.
The simple fact is, almost everyone in this situation reacted almost exactly as could have been predicted with any analysis of the psychology of the situation… and a good number of people did more.
People are afraid to admit this because it means their neighbor, best friend, brother, co-worker, child’s teacher, etc. might be doing this. It’s scary because we invariably have to trust people. But how long do many cheating husbands and wives get away with cheating before they get caught? Do you really know what the people in your life are doing when they aren’t around you? The answers to these types of questions are supremely scary if we allow ourselves to think about them, so we don’t.
I asked my friend in high school, who was not always on the up-and-up, how he got away with some of the things he did when his parents would certainly kick his butt for doing them. He said, “Never underestimate the power of denial.” Now, there’s been a lot of denial going on around here (and I am guilty of at least some of it too), but there’s also been a whole lot of denial going on around the rest of the country too. Happy Valley as a unique cesspool of immoral men is denial of the fact that Happy Valley is just like 99% of the other medium/small towns in America… and most of those small towns have people who are registered sex offenders… and many of those people probably got away with what they were doing for a long time.
by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 10, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 11 recs
Jerry Sandusky's stature in the community
His work with children in Centre County and beyond and his status as an emeritus professor make this fact pattern fairly specific to Penn State. However, if you point is that this type of power structure in University Administration is not unique to Penn State, then you are correct. It’s just that the disaster that befalls some other school will be based on some other fact pattern, unique to that school.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I would argue that Jerry Sandusky's stature in the community is not unique
especially in these types of situations. As evidence, one need only look to a small subset of priests in the Catholic Church. Men who appear to be outwardly good and have good to great standing in the community are much less likely to be questioned than the creepy guy down the block. In 99.9% of cases, they have earned their reputation. Its the .1% that Sandusky and other men masquerading as community leaders falls into that is the problem. Their good standing helps to hide their perverted actions and allows them to get away with it for so long. Without that standing they can’t remain hidden in plain sight. Without that standing, the accusations come at the first sign that something is amiss.
Sandusky had built a tremendous amount of goodwill through his apparent selfless actions, founding the Second Mile, etc. Not everyone has built that level of cache for themselves. However, we’d be fooling ourselves if we believed that this situation was unique simply because he’d become a celebrated community figure.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 10, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
I'll concede that the exact situation is somewhat unique...
but I think the uncovering of other similar scandals immediately following ours (The Citadel and Syracuse) prove the point that just because the specifics may be different and much more “fun” for the media to cover, there are (very unfortunately) power structures and sterling reputations of certain people in many different organizations that might lead to the very same outcomes. I mean, even just within this incident we have multiple organizations that utterly failed… and for the most part they did not have the reputation of a school, coach, or football program to try to protect. They did have other interests to protect.
And I really don’t think it can be overstated how much a sterling reputation in the community insulates someone from suspicion. Undoubtedly the witnesses that saw Sandusky doing inappropriate things either gave him the benefit of the doubt (especially if he made a pattern of being a bit physical with kids in front of other adults) or were afraid that they would not be believed if they spoke up. Taking out any motivations that may have involved protecting the school, there’s plenty of reasons it took a long time for enough questions to be put together that a pattern of bad behavior emerged enough to overcome that goodwill.
by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 11, 2012 2:10 AM EST up reply actions
Yes.
The gist of both your and jesse.‘s points fit well with the structural sociological take I have been prone to adopt. I’ll promise you that a similar event could take place here at LSU — and likely at a bunch of universities as well — just with “some other fact pattern” as jesse. responded.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
Not to derail the discussions going on here
but any good psychology books you would recommend? I’m looking for something interesting but not too technical as I have very little background on the subject. Just a novice looking for some interesting reading.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
Follow @134Lounge
Try "Are you There God, it's Me, Margaret"
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
by letsgopsu on Jan 10, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Is that comment smartassery or for real?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 10, 2012 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
it's letsgo
so smartassery should be the default assumption ;)
though don’t get me wrong, I love me some Judy Blume…she taught me a lot back in the day! I’m kinda surprised more of her books haven’t been banned, TBH…though I think Forever has been in many school districts.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
It's a good thing she didn't write about cutting.
Otherwise plenty of 80s children would have discovered it.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
I think Margaret may be from the 70's
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
Same difference with Judy Blume.
She influenced at least 3 generations of girls.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
and she still is
she’s quite active on twitter
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
man, we passed Forever around!
it seemed so dirty
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
I know!
That is, until I read Godfather when I was 13…whoo boy. Then that got passed around to a few of my nerd friends. You know, the only ones of us who were reading Mario Puzo in 7th grade.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
I used to know the exact page for the better part of a decade.
I still know it’s in the 20’s.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I feel like it's still probably the most graphic sex scene I've read
in terms of stark language. There’s no glossing around. Quite shocking, really, for when it was written.
But my impressions may be clouded, like most things, by my mindset when I initially read it…thinking back, I probably have read much more provocative things more recently, but it’s not as shocking as an adult.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
Gross.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 12, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
This is why I will never tell my mom about BSD
Striving for Success with Honor
by Frank O'Brien on Jan 12, 2012 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
Hilarious!
Seriously, tho, kudos to all your family for still being family here, amongst our family.
Love all yous guys!
jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.
Psychology is not my area,
but I can recommend The Transformation of Intimacy: Sexuality, Love, and Eroticism in Modern Societies by sociologist Anthony Giddens. It’s a wonderfully accessible book that plays with psychology through the lens of identity construction.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
This is a standout comment
Placing responsibility (i.e., blaming), I would argue, has been the single biggest thing to halt progress on actually addressing the real issues that caused this situation.
and especially
Happy Valley as a unique cesspool of immoral men is denial of the fact that Happy Valley is just like 99% of the other medium/small towns in America…
I’ve had some discussions in different threads on similar (but less eloquently articulated) topics. It’s very dangerous that everyone around the country has been looking down their noses, treating Penn State as some sort of Gomorrah. This temptation to “other” us, and make this whole thing into something that happened entirely as the result of specific individuals in a specific context that were ripe for this sort of things is more than just wrong, but exacerbates the real problem.
But you can’t really suggest this in a way that anyone will really HEAR it.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 10, 2012 10:44 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Wow, just Wow
Fair and balanced and by far the best summary I have read to date.
I want to make this required reading for every member of the MSM including the “journalist” and talking heads at ESPN.
Thanks jesse.
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
by letsgopsu on Jan 10, 2012 4:36 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
"I wasn't performing an investigation..."
Isn’t that close to a direct quote from Schultz’s testimony? Based on what I have read, after JS, I would probably think of him as the “Chief Bad Guy.”
I would love to see Joe reinstated, but I don’t ever see that happening. I agree that given the firestorm, there is no way Joe could have coached the remainder of the season. However, I thought he should have been placed on administrative leave – which would have made it easier to reinstate.
by dontcallmescooter on Jan 10, 2012 4:38 PM EST reply actions
Strong work here jesse.
You make a strong analysis of this particular case of typical institutional mindlessness.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
a very clinical analysis
and quite right on the money
but I believe Joe deserves more than a “commendation for meritorious service for his 60 years” and the manner the University uses to atone for their unsteady harmful precipitous action will be the key.
They need to have a full blown Joe Paterno day every season at the stadium with a pubic apology for their part in making him seem to be in the wrong in this.
Great job
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 10, 2012 4:43 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
I agree, BUT...
A commendation or anything more or even less for Paterno and IMMEDIATELY all the media headlines are, “Paterno Honored – Penn State STILL Doesn’t Get It”.
Frankly....
I don’t get what PSU is supposed to get. Maybe I’m just stupid. To me this is not about PSU much at all. Again, I must be stupid.
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 11, 2012 9:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
I don’t get what we are supposed to “get”. Should we all be wearing hair shirts and rendering hurting ourselves? Are we as alums and fans of the school supposed to not care about football or the other sports anymore? Are we supposed to continually apologize for being Penn Staters?
At this point, I really could give two shits less what the media headlines are anymore.
There are people and groups that absolutely despise Penn State, and Joe Paterno. No logical reasoning or facts are every going to change that. There are legal issues to this scandal that need to be played out.
Other than the legal aspect of this, the rest of it is an internal matter for the Penn State family. Whether we villify Joe and tear down his statue, or honor Paterno, reinstate him as coach and accept his retirement, is to be debated amongst us. And only us.
And instead of covering that, ESPN can go through their storage and see if they have any tapes older than 9 years old to destroy as it relates to Bernie Fine. That’ll keep ESPN busy and out of our hair.
by Ab4PSU on Jan 11, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Thank you for taking the time to put this together and sharing it with us.
I don’t think I would be giving you the respect you deserve if I just threw out any old instant reaction other than a thank you, so I am going to think about quite a good deal tonight. If I have any worthy additions, I will post them at that time.
Leaders Co-Champions
Excellent write up.
Excellent. The only thing I can say is that I would have liked the administration to explored a third option (to placate the rabble without or the rabble within), and that is to try reason with both sides.
That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.
by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 10, 2012 4:55 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
This was a great post jesse.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
To the extent anybody actually worked their way through this,
I appreciate their patience.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
You tackle a tremendous amount of issues surrounding the situation
I found the ones that you chose to focus on to be quite poinant. Volumes could be written on all of the details surrounding this, but I feel like you’ve done quite a good job of limiting the scope to the most important details; particularly as it pertains to learning a lesson and finding ways to effectively move forward.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 10, 2012 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
I echo this praise.
Thanks for investing the time to produce this and for doing such a good job. I especially appreciate your linking the SNAFU explanation to popular conspiracy theories.
The human brain, at its most fundamental levels, seeks to create order from chaos. That is how we perceive the world around us; we process incredible volumes of raw sensory data, and the brain orders it for us. So I believe that we gravitate toward conspiracy theories because they impose orderly patterns on unpredictable chaos. We subconsciously seek the comfort of that order.
On the surface, it is horrific to ponder the possibility that University leadership conspired to cover up sexual abuse to protect the school’s reputation or conceal a child sex ring, but subconsciously, there is a comforting element to having a discernible “bad guy.” Having an evil mastermind or nefarious plot to blame for all of this is, in many ways, not as awful as the probable truth: that all of this hurt – to these children, to Joe Paterno’s legacy, to the good name of Penn State – is the result of something so mundane as a few moments of overly bureaucratic oversight. I think we would rather live in a world where a shadowy cabal is always in control than one where we are subject to the random “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.”
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
by PSU_Buch on Jan 10, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Buch, big fan of this comment
Just wanted to point it out. You’re saying things here that are really important for understanding the human condition. I’m not kidding when I say that this comment made me consider the back-burner’d idea of writing short stories. Really great stuff.
Having an evil mastermind or nefarious plot to blame for all of this is, in many ways, not as awful as the probable truth: that all of this hurt – to these children, to Joe Paterno’s legacy, to the good name of Penn State – is the result of something so mundane as a few moments of overly bureaucratic oversight.
Boom.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 10, 2012 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
He said it better than me.
I actually stopped myself from rewriting my paragraph above addressing it. 20 rewrites into the day, and I didn’t get that part the way I wanted it.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Mundane is perhaps the perfect word in the perfect place.
Which according to Coleridge would place this in the realm of the poetic.
We collectively construct metanarratives that give some meaning and purpose to our lives. We need to think that we are inevitably driven toward some noble and just telos. One thing we sure as hell don’t want to believe is that we are all victims of random, chaotic forces. To accept this latter point denies the possibility that good behavior will ultimately be rewarded – more starkly, it is to deny the very possibility of meaning. We are then left stripped of all that is recognizable as human, bitterly alienated from our own existence.
Thus, mundaneity is the proper idiom I think. The social elides the individual as we abdicate control of our identity to the collective consciousness as a necessary structural consequence. And it’s not a new problem either. Essentially, we’ve landed on a question with which early critics of the enlightenment ethos such as Swift and Voltaire struggled. Moreover it is the core problem which has driven (obsessed?) philosophy, rhetoric, literature, and social theory since the onslaught of the industrial revolution and the emergence of mass society in the West. It is as well the central issue animating the postmodern turn of the mid 20th Century.
While some seek comfort in an absolutist bromide replete with illusionary clarity, sharp lines, and either/or moral codes, the rest of us are working on the quandary right here on Black Shoe Diaries.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
by SubLime on Jan 11, 2012 9:54 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
It is certainly the case that BSD...
is the only place I know of that I can come on the internet and have meaningful discussions about anything from philosophy, law, statistics, etc… immediately followed by low brow humor.
Life is scary if you start to think about all of the ways you don’t control your own. It’s why staring up into the sky at night and realizing just how small you are is both fascinating and disturbing. And it is probably a big reason that religion continues to exist even as science has filled in many of the answers about how our world works.
by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 11, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Smile
The sun could have exploded five minutes ago, and you won’t know for another five minutes.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
If she felt lucky...
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
This is confusing
to me someone I know. Since when does it last longer than 30 seconds?
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 11, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I was just surprised she charged by the minute
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
Follow @134Lounge
That's a real incentive to pass on the foreplay.
Who needs it?
by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 11, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Whats this 'foreplay' you speak of?
I mean really, it only takes a few seconds to undress.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 11, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
YOU HAVE TO UNDRESS
to have sex?!?!?!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Question?
(no subsequent witness or victim has alleged that Sandusky hurt them on Campus after 2002, which makes sense given that Sandusky was operating on a pretty high level).
I thought I read at least one report from a post-GJ witness/lawyer (e.g., civil suit only) that he was molested on PSU property after 2002. I hope my memory is flawed; there’s so much information to keep straight, but I thought I should raise the question at least.
Stop blaming Joe -- media mobs!
Nominate - Elect Franco Harris, Lydell Mitchell, Jimmy Cefalo to BoT (and vote out all nine alumni incumbents over next three years)
I don't think so.
There are incidents of abuse after 2002. And there are many reports of Sandusky being on campus after 2002. But I think Jerry took his game to a different pond after the 2002 incident.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Thanks
As an afterthought, Curley was taken to task for not taking Sandusky’s access keys away after the 2002 incident; so if nothing more happened on campus why was this point emphasized (at least by the media – unless I’m not remembering this correctly either)?
Stop blaming Joe -- media mobs!
Nominate - Elect Franco Harris, Lydell Mitchell, Jimmy Cefalo to BoT (and vote out all nine alumni incumbents over next three years)
by OlderBudweiser on Jan 10, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
Emeritus Status cannot be revoked on a whim.
And certainly not on the whim of the Athletic Director. It seems very simple, but that is a function of tenure, and to do anything that would affect it would require the action of either the BOT, or at least the Faculty Senate.
I mean in retrospect, duh, but in actual practice, it’s a SNAFU within a SNAFU.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually more the BOT than Faculty Senate.
In many cases the Faculty Senate can make recommendations, but cannot actually change policy without approval from the President’s office or BOT. Emeritus decisions are ALWAYS made at the BOT level.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
Which supports my argument all along that this is a university issue, not a football issue.
However, who care about what goes on behind closed doors at Old Main. Throw in the greatest coach in college football history and now you have a story.
by Ab4PSU on Jan 11, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
UNTRUE
Joe had absolute power to revoke his status within the forcefield
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
by letsgopsu on Jan 10, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Isn't it amazing that Joe had the power to stop all this, yet could still be fired?
Am I missing something here, or was Joe perhaps not as powerful as he was portrayed?
He was both the irresistible force
and immoveable object, don’t ya see?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
Jesse had the best one I ever saw:
Joe was a supernatural mist.
WOW!
That is insightful and true!!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
Jesse's whole quote was something like this:
For 12 Saturdays a year Joe is a doddering old man that shits himself and can’t call an offensive play.
The rest of the time he’s a supernatural mist that not only sees, hears, and knows everything, but can control the actions of a football program, a community, and the state.
Does that mean no bowl game?
Only 12 Saturdays?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Not to put words in Jesse's mouth; I'm just assuming here.
Bowl games didn’t count because it seemed like Joe always won bowl games.
Just checking, Ab.
Thanks for the clarification.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
Bowl games aren't necessarily played on Saturdays.
…of course, regular games aren’t usually played on Saturday in the Big East.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Touche' re bowl games, LH418.
Please define “regular” for the Big Least.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
I was talking about anything between August and November.
I will concede, however, that there’s very little regularity in that conference.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
The Big Least commissioner,
when asked if the BE players wore partial or full jock straps, replied, “Depends.”
So much for regularity.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
That was before 2002
I think.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
An attached chronology of events....
can be found here. It is consistent with my assertion that there were no events at PSU after 2002.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
We've discussed this somewhat before, but..
As a result, I think there is a relevant connection to the NCAA’s investigation in to “lack of institutional control”.
You really think there’s grounds here for LOIC? I wouldn’t think you could punish the football program; all those employees did what they were expected to do according to rules and regulations. Of course the first thing I think of is loss of scholarships, TV, or Bowls like traditional sanctions with things like LOIC. I most certainly wouldn’t expect any punishment to the baseball or basketball team because of something the AD/VP did or didn’t do. But in that same breath (general question coming up…) how could the NCAA single-out football and impose, say, scholarship reductions on a football program that didn’t violate any NCAA rules?
As this dies down, I think we'll hear less and less from the NCAA.
The NCAA’s job is to ensure compliance with NCAA regulations governing intercollegiate athletics. Nothing in this scandal has given Penn State an unfair competitive advantage in football. It’s not like Miami, where players got parties, cash, bitches, drugs, etc, things that would lure players who would otherwise not go to that school. Same with O$U and tattoos and selling memorabilia, U$C, etc. What went on here was criminal. People have already lost their jobs, and when this is done, people will end up in jail.
What can the NCAA do that is a greater punishment than that? The NCAA was grandstanding because they had to look like they were doing something. Besides, has the NCAA even mentioned Syracuse? If they slam us in this and not Syracuse, I’d say the NCAA can get their asses sued off.
I slightly disagree.
This situation resulted in our current coaching staff being decimated, and our new HC has now hired Ted Roof to be our DC. Instant competitive advantage!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
I see your point.
The University didn’t have the balls to oust Joe, except under extreme duress. We manufacture this scandal (which, by the way, never really happened!) as a means to dismiss Joe, thereby bringing in another Ivy League graduate, albeit younger and with more energy, to awaken the sleeping giant that is our football program.
Yup. I can see the instant competitive advantage argument being made by the NCAA.
If you dig deep enough, Ab, you can always uncover the conspiracy.
Exhibit A does that very well, on multiple threads.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
At the end of it all, I think it’s much easier to take responsibility for something when you know it’s your responsibility. Penn State is guilty of fostering an environment of no responsibility, and that’s a pretty bad thing.
I don’t know about your place of work, but at mine, we tend to reward people who take responsibility for things that nobody appears to be taking responsibility for – we view it as signs of incipient leadership.
As for Joe Paterno’s role, he is also a human being, a leader, a father, and a grandfather. He had moral responsibilities beyond those to the organization, as would you or I if we were in that role. No simple codification of rules or organizational structure can handle every eventuality nor can they substitute for people doing the right thing.
And the right thing, when you are told that a kid was sexually abused in your locker room, is not just to fire off a report and forget about it.
At your place of work, they reward people who violate company policy, and go off the reservation on their own intiative?
Really? Maybe, but my guess is that if you do so, you better be right.
As for Joe Paterno’s role, in two months, I’m still at a loss for why he has the final responsibility to solve all of these problems rather than the people that the BOT trustees specifically nominated to do it. Specifically, The Pennsylvania State University says that Graham Spanier has the final responsibility here, not Joe Paterno. Why is the latter’s responsibility greater than the formers, when the latter has a “standing orders” that tell him the responsibility report belongs to someone else. The only reason I’ve discovered is that Joe Paterno is famous, while the BOT is annoymous and Spanier is small potatoes.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
No.
Do you honestly expect a calm response after you turn “take responsibility for something nobody’s taking responsibility for” to “violate company policy and go off the reservation”?
Also, when you take “should have done more” into “final responsibility”, you do not put me in the mood to treat you gently either.
Since I know you’re better than this, I’ll restrain my impulses to act as badly as you have here – for the time being.
Paterno should have followed up both inside and outside of the organizational structure when it became crystal clear nothing was done about Sandusky. He continued to work with kids and was sashaying around campus until he was arrested, for god’s sake; this didn’t exactly require detective work to realize that maybe the right thing wasn’t done.
And, again, this does not mean Paterno has ‘final responsiblity’. He had some responsiblity, legally, which he actually satisfied, unlike, apparently, several other bozoes in this affair. Great, we’re not arguing about them, but I’ve made it crystal clear that on the spectrum from “didn’t do enough” to “final responsibility”, that Paterno is on the far left side. Doesn’t mean he’s not on there at all. Doesn’t mean you should feel good about conflating this so you can look better in front of the rest of the audience here either.
Why do only ever write about Paterno?
this does not mean Paterno has ‘final responsiblity’.
Then write about somebody else. Or show me a link where you assign more responsibility to person X than Paterno. I’ll stand corrected.
Personally, I’ve written about the responsibility of all of the parties involved. Critically, and generally responsibly. I stand by what i’ve written on these issues. Today, and in the past.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I wrote
Spanier needs to be fired out of a cannon.
I said Curley and Schultz face jail time.
I said they were obviously more culpable than Paterno.
I said this on numerous occasions.
You still want to assign homework? Promise you’ll go back to being sane, and I’ll dig it up.
Here
I’m feeling generous. Here’s one. It should be obvious to a guy with your obvious brains that there’s not a lot of reason to discuss Curley, Spanier, Schultz, Sandusky since there’s no controversy – nobody is defending their right to their jobs.
Here's more
I can’t help myself. From twitter:
Spanier doesn’t deserve to resign. Paterno, yes. Spanier should be fired. Publically. If not out of a cannon, even. #psucharges #PSUBOT
I don't follow Twitter.
It should be obvious to a guy with your obvious brains that there’s not a lot of reason to discuss Curley, Spanier, Schultz, Sandusky since there’s no controversy
But I shouldn’t read the specific rules of the BOT and apply them to the situation as I understand it? Moreover, I really didn’t take the position that Joe Paterno was “entitled” to his job. Neither in this piece, or anywhere else. I’ve written in support of your position on the legality of firing Paterno in the past.
All I did here was try to gain and explain the Penn State beauracracy as it realtes to this case.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No
When we’re talking about a certain set of crimes, the internal rules of the organization are not sufficient to guide one’s conduct, unless one does not aspire to be anything more than barely better than the guys that are going to jail.
Child sex abuse is one of those crimes.
There’s a whole spectrum of possible responses that Paterno could have engaged in when nothing apparently happened to Sandusky. My belief is that he asked Curley and/or Schultz about it once or twice and that was it. I believe that if he had gone outside the university power structure, he would have been quite clearly doing the right thing, and he would have stood a very strong chance of stopping future sexual abuse by Sandusky.
And I believe he knows this.
How do you know what Joe did do and didn't do?
Has Joe spoken on the record about this? What if Joe went outside the University, and law enforcement followed up with the University Park police, and UP police said there was nothing to go on? What if the boy in the shower WAS interviewed and said nothing sexual was happening? Then what? See. There are too many people who haven’t come out and spoken on the record as to what they knew, didn’t know, and when.
JS' attorney
claims they have identified and contacted victim #2, who will testify that nothing of a sexual nature took place. It will be interesting to see how certain dogmatic people react to that, should the jury believe victim #2.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
You know what the haters will say, don't you?
That Victim #2 was still assaulted. That Victim #2 was paid huge, HUGE hush money.
I have said
in another thread that IF Paterno followed up outside the university, I’d consider that enough to satisfy some normal level of moral responsibility.
There’s rumors from his camp that he ‘followed up’ which make it sound like he just talked to the same guys who didn’t do shit the first time around.
Finally, JS’s attorney has obvious reasons for making it sound like Victim 2 will support him. There were also rumors right before the preliminary hearing that the prosecution had found him and that he was going to testify for them. We now don’t know either way, but for what seems like the billionth time, the report from McQueary itself requires reporting to the cops and following up, regardless of whether the report ends up holding true.
Still not talking to you
while you persist in being uncivil.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
You're badly mischaracterizing what I wrote.
but at mine [place of work], we tend to reward people who take responsibility for things that nobody appears to be taking responsibility for.
Finish the thought. What was he supposed to do to take responsibility. Inependendantly go to the police? How do you think Penn State’s BOT would have viewed that? As a sign of “incipient leadership”, or going off the reservation.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll assume that you have also condemed the other parties.
I stand corrected.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I would be likely fired if I reported a crime (that I did not witness) to the police
instead of following our internal procedures. I have a real job though; not managing guys in flip flops.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Jan 10, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That's uncivil!
So didn’t miss this in my hiatus.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Just remember
only people who disagree with the mob have to be civil! (ref comment about ‘real job’ and ‘guys in flip flops’.
Sorry, do you wear Keens instead?
I truly don’t think you’re employed based upon your fundamental misunderstanding of all things corporate. And, yes, I would imagine that Burger King has a corporate policy dealing with the procedure for reporting crimes. Hell, I probably know the guy who wrote it.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Jan 10, 2012 9:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ironically
I bet Burger King’s is better than Penn State’s.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
They do deal with kids more often,
but also remember that there was a case at McD’s where the manager made a girl strip to perform a “search.” There are sickos everywhere. Just last week, a local retired school teacher was arrested for a large number of child sex abuse charges over his entire career.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Clearly Joe knew about these
and did nothing
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
by letsgopsu on Jan 10, 2012 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Joe should have contacted McDs.
"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."
Joe Paterno
I wouldn't bet against you
Unless you gave me like -3000, I might throw a 5 spot down.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 10, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You are aware
that the King didn’t actually write the policy, and he’s just an actor, right?
by M1EK on Jan 10, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
That is actually really funny
Gotta give props when they are due.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
I think Hell just froze over
I rec’d one of M1EK’s posts
Reporter: Can you give us a touchdown celebration, one that you would get penalized for?
Moye: I play at Penn State. I don’t celebrate.
Well, you attacked jesse. first,
without him saying anything resembling a personal attack.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You are so very wrong
He turned a reasonable position of mine into something warped beyond all recognition.
Try being objective sometime. It’s hard to see the sins of those who agree with us, but it’s a lot more important.
I am an objective person, by and large.
I wouldn’t be able to teach policy if I wasn’t objective. I think you just grate on me.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And I'll bet
you are under the impression that you, and those like you, don’t grate on me at all, right?
I'm sure I do :o)
With pleasure.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
FTFY.
I think you just grate on me those of us who are rational instead of dogmatic.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
You need a better dictionary
There is no better definition of dogmatic than the behavior of you and those like you who have been defending Paterno in this affair.
And is it rational to make a death threat joke?
I won't talk to you
until you apologize for being uncivil.
/holdingbreathstompingfeetpouting
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We should all be so blessed
and it’s difficult to understand why we are not.
M1EKopathy – a burning pathological desire to be reviled and abused on a comment thread
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 10, 2012 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I join you in that one
PSU_Lions_84
Irrational and dogmatic is quite accurate
It’s difficult to understand how he is tolerated. He might as well be a ShaggyBevo troll for all the loyalty he displays toward his claimed alma mater.
That grates on me and I’m not a PSU alumni. Seeking attention by being dogmatically irrational is pathological and these constant long threads of Homer vs the entire BSD community are tiresome and stupid.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Linking the whole paragraph
is great. As is the conflation with the avatar (should I start assuming you’re really a little girl?)
But this really needed more capital letters, and there’s barely any reference to sex in there at all.
I think you can do better.
Hard to tell which is more absurd
The idea that you think
or
the idea you have that I would care what you think.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 10, 2012 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Funny

He turned a reasonable position of mine into something warped beyond all recognition.
Homer and “reasonable proposition” never go together in the same post.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 10, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't agree.
I took a crack at your argument. You didn’t like it, but there was nothing personal about it.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I disagree
I have not turned any arguments from those like you or those like Paige into their reductio ad absurdium versions, even though at times, when some of them have behaved very badly, I have been very sorely tempted.
You did. It wasn’t “taking a crack at it”; it was conflating it with something ridiculous and then taking a crack at that instead.
I would love to count the times,
you have used the phrase, “reductio ad absurdium.” I could make a drinking game out of that.
/Personal attack’d
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
There is nothing wrong with binge drinking.
Posting arguments that look like they could have come from a binge drinker? Also allowed, but be funnier, please.
I'm out of practice.
Give me some time and more beer and I’m sure I’ll get funnier!
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm signing up as your
designated driver to/from your AA meetings, Paige, since you will definitely have a drinking problem after that.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, 84!
I appreciate the support!
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm enjoying how you are lighting up this buffoon.
Am taking up a collection so his parents can afford more Ritalin.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 9:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rational responses have no
effect – so I guess there is some pleasure in watching this constant train wreck.
What is the term for an individual who courts constant abuse and vilification on the internet? If there isn’t one we should coin it. M1EKopathy and the natural reaction to it is Homerphobia?
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
I call dibs...
on drinking every time he uses the word ‘sashay’.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 10, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
Sigh.
I’m gonna have buy a bus to carry all you people . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Just wait in the bar until I get there --
it will be a LONG commute to get all of you.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
I explained what I wrote above.
I even gave you the admission you wanted, without further explanation or comment. But, your neither the first, nor will you be the last, to dislike the way I argue from time to time. It was nothing personal.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I never said
it was personal. I said I didn’t like it, and I’d respond in kind if you didn’t cut it out.
I could just as easily conflate many arguments made here with their more ridiculous versions too, which is what some of the outside venues are already doing. It would not be difficult, and I have had to restrain myself from doing so when highly provoked.
Likewise, restraining my urge to actually call the people on the other side of this debate the names that they so richly deserve while I’m getting it with both barrels has also been quite difficult.
More amazing still is that so many people here are so clueless about how they could be getting argued against if they were actually getting as good as they gave.
Flag it.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Watch out
he’s gonna break out the “creepy pervert” name calling again to try to hurt your feelings.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 10, 2012 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jesse.'s internet version of
Sack up and stab me.
.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts
Here's what I don't understand
You, by your own admission, hold a minority viewpoint on this board on this issue. Yet, continually, the same old arguments are rehashed, tempers flare, and attacks are made. You seem to get angry with any attacks made (I can understand being upset if you feel like you are attacked), but wouldn’t the easiest way to not get angry at this be by not rising to the bait? You call others out on their attacks on you, but the easiest way to avoid being attacked is by not restating the same things over and over again. I think most of us on this board know each others’ viewpoints on this issue.
And, no, I don’t think Jesse.’s post is the same thing over and over again, as he seems to have given the post a lot of thought, and no doubt wrote and rewrote sections of it as his veiwpoint evolved (thanks for that, btw, Jesse.). And perhaps if you did the same in a fanpost rather than spare same comments here or there I might feel the same way.
And this is not to say I think you should walk away from the board—I think you’ve had some interesting points on the hire, both of BOB and the assistant coaches. I just feel like maybe you should pick your battles, and this topic perhaps shouldn’t be one of them. Obviously that’s up to you, but I’m trying to keeps some modicum of peace on here.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
This is a good point
except that, for one obvious thing, as a denizen of USENET from back before many of you were born, I’m aware of the fact that there are dozens if not hundreds or thousands of readers for every poster here – and I do not want their image of PSU to be that of unanimous denial of reality.
So now you have to criticize people
for being younger than you? How old are you?
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 9:57 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
99 years young.
Sitting in a hotel room on a business trip wishing I was drunk or asleep.
I mean, in my mom’s basement.
you argue the way hannibal lector does.
i wonder about the contents of your freezer…
by NuclearLion on Jan 10, 2012 10:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I bet his customers
hate to see him in town if his social skills with them are anything like his ability to win friends and influence people on BSD
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
wow, at 99 your mom's still alive?
them’s good genes. ;)
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I also wish you were asleep.
And completely believe that you do live in your mother’s bedroom.
Who else needs this kind of attention from the internet?
"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."
Joe Paterno
You see
I try to give you the benefit of a doubt. And you do things like this:
and I do not want their image of PSU to be that of unanimous denial of reality.
Can never pass up an opportunity for the proverbial rib-poke or foot-step, can you? You know, you could have said “I want to represent that there is a portion of the Penn State community who holds beliefs different from those most commonly shared on these boards” or something. It’s a pretty dick move, what you did.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 10, 2012 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yes only M1EK knows the reality
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
I take issue with the box quote as well.
We all have the same forum available to us. He could just as easily write a Fanpost and attempt to direct the discussion in a way that suits his argument. Going first is a tremendous advantage, his one Fan post had nearly 800 comments, it’s not fair to assume nobody would read it.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You have to understand
that that’s at least 50% milder than what I’m getting here.
Don’t you?
Or do you really think “denial of reality” is somehow remotely as bad as what your compatriots are flinging my way?
In the beginning...
yes, people were very rood to you. Now, not so much.
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 11, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Incredible
You have to understand
that that’s at least 50% milder than what I’m getting here.Don’t you?
You think you could do something more meaningful with no restrictions or that name-calling would give you some power?
I can’t imagine anyone here caring one bit about names you might call them. In fact the more hate you display toward a BSD patron the more people like them.
You seem to have a massive ego problem that gives you the impression that your contempt or refusal to reply or claim of dogmatism is of some importance to BSD posters. I can’t see the slightest evidence of that.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 11, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, I wasn't saying it was inappropriate or whatever
Just that it was a really passive-aggressive and cheap comment. I wouldn’t really care whether you were polite or cursing everyone out…I’m just pointing out that I saw what you were doing there and that it was pretty weak.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 11, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think
there is a nicer way to state that idea that shows that I believe people are denying reality. Your statement doesn’t even come close.
Nevermind.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
PETRIFICUS TOTALUS!

I love Latin!
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
by letsgopsu on Jan 10, 2012 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Holy crap Neville looks young there.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 10, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
that was the second movie, I think
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
He looks like a young (living)
John Candy.
Not to be confused with the martyred John Candy.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
nope, first
at the end of it before they go through the tasks protecting the Sorcerer’s Stone, Neville tells them not to be out of bed and says he’ll fight them. Then Hermione apologizes and uses petrificus totalus on him.
Has my nerd status been solidified yet? Was it ever in any doubt?
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
NC =
NerdCarlotta.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
eh, I'll take it
I’ve been called worse.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
/proud yet ashamed to have known exactly what NC's talking about
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 10, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
don't be ashamed
embrace your nerd side. we have cupcakes.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, I love the movies/books.
Refused to see the last movie b/c my boys grew up reading HP. They are now 21 and 19, and HP is over.
Sad Dad.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
I saw it with my Mom!
After I saw it with my friends.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
I have this feeling
that once I see it, the entire mystique is over. Right now, I can reread the series and it’s still alive.
Just sentimental . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
that makes perfect sense, truly
but when I watch the last one, it just makes me want to go back and watch the first again…or, rather, read the first two novels and then watch movies 3-7.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
We would order like four copies of each book.
When they arrived, we (wife, sons, and I) would drop what we were doing and read from cover-to-cover.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
My brother (now 20) and I
went to all the midnight sellings of books 5-7. He went with me to all the midnight movies as well. A bonding experience for so many families, just a wonderful phenomenon I doubt will ever be replicated.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
I've heard JKR may revisit
the HP thing somehow. Nothing definite, but it would be great (I hope!).
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
In all seriousness, JKR
inspired a whole new generation to read. THAT’s awesome!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
it truly is
I respect her immensely for that. And also for being able to maintain some semblance of anonymity while all this craziness is going on around her…though of course large estates and private security do help with that.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
I respect her for not thinking we all want to watch a reality show about her life
coughkardashianscough
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
OK
I just remembered it was in the second movie that the Basilisk was petrifying people.
Poor jesse. Look what his excellent post turned into.
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
I was quite literally just thinking the same thing
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
Once you get the divas all in one room...
…Harry Potter was the best I could have hoped for.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Teen Mom is on
we should live blog it
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
And I am out.
Work tomorrow, and this is my busy time of the year.
Night, all. Been (mostly) a pleasure.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
night 84!
I think I’m about to go to bed as well…I’ve been working overtime in the mornings so getting up earlier. At least I can beat DC morning traffic that way!
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
I LOVE the DC area.
Worked in Pentagon City for 8 years. City just oozed power.
E-mail please if where you work is hiring financial people — I’m sick of the Duke crap. E-mail in profile.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
Just gonna tell you, we're not
I work for a Pension Fund, and we might be looking at a few more layoffs in the coming months…here’s hoping not though.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
Come to Duke.
Lifetime security for some. Get six months’ experience — 50 times.
Sorry, gotta go or I’ll burn up the net bitching about work.
H&K all Divas.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
night!
and good luck :)
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
We did that once...
and Rambler was on fire that night.
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 11, 2012 8:33 AM EST up reply actions
You have actually done something like this in an argument with me
I haven’t been as active for a little while, but I didn’t want to let you slide on that claim.
Several times, when I’ve tried to engage you in a discussion on a certain point, you’ve refused to engage me on my specific comment, and instead argued (in reply to me) against what “my side” has said.
It’s very similar to what you’re accusing jesse. of doing. I never espoused the stances of other commenters, but at times you’d take the most extreme stances taken in disagreement with you and indirectly attribute them to me, via grouping my individual arguments into a “side” or “wagon circle” or whatever.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 10, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
He has no interest in discussion Octa
His interest is in baiting those who disagree with his constant condemnation of Joe Paterno and his claimed alma mater.
When the only thing that gets attention is this constant return to the same failed argument there is something sick happening.
You did one heck of a job trying to be civil in a logical debate. Psuphysicist (?) tried valiantly to do the same thing. There was little if any success because that is not what he desires.
He likes his attention seeking behavior because it’s cheap and easy. He just has to be contrary and then claim he has been misinterpreted or attacked.
I call it M1EKopathy – or the pathological desire to be abused online.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Not true
In those threads, the typical course went like this:
Me: Long thread back and forth with many other participants.
You: “X. Stop arguing against Y”
Me: “But everybody else is saying Y. You’re not the only one here, you know”.
If you can find a case where I clearly identified YOU as saying something with which you feel you should not have been identified, please let me know and I will retract and apologize.
But if you’re complaining that the positions of the 100 people on your side sometimes get generalized, I don’t know what to tell you. It’s hard to treat 100 people as distinct individuals all the time.
This is where we've had some discussion before
The beauty of BSD and the SBNation platform is that you can respond directly to one person using the reply function. The thread and subthreads continue. At the same time, you can choose to ignore anyone chiming in unfairly by not replying to their post.
I understand that often people speak in generalities, but the point is that if two people choose they can have in depth, meaningful discussions without the strawmen that persist on other sites.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 11, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Not true.
When there are dozens of sniping jackasses interjecting themselves into every such conversation, it at some level becomes very difficult to continue a respectful discussion with the few that try to do so.
Well, you can try
And like I said, its your choice to engage or ignore them. All you have to do is reply to the person you want to continue to engage and ignore the ‘sniping jackasses’
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 11, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
No.
It’s actually not remotely that easy, but you’ve never had to do it, so I guess it doesn’t matter.
I haven't had to do it here
But I’ve had to do it in real life. There have been instances where I made a shitty first impression and had to spend a ton of time and overt good will trying to earn a position of respect within that group.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 11, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
Nope.
Not buying this redirection. Every single person who has posted here with an unpopular opinion and didn’t immediately give up when confronted has been treated the same way by this site’s commentariat.
If you want a serious discussion with somebody who’s getting attacked by ten other snipers, do something about the snipers yourself. Otherwise, the signal gets lost in the noise.
Alright
Well, its everyone else then. None of it has anything to do with your general demeanor.
Look, I think there are a few people that are out of line. I’ve defended you on multiple occasions. At some point though, you can either take some responsibility and ownership and change the conversation, or you can continue this direction. Quite honestly, I feel you’d get a lot more support from a lot of the regular commenters here if you did that.
But I’m not going to tell you what to do. Its your choice.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 11, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions
Respectfully
you don’t HAVE to do it either.
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
How many posts do I have to read in which you are the victim M1EK?
Sheesh.
Poor you. You cant say what you want, you’re on a leash. You’re write and everybody else is delusional and poor poor you.
Get over yourself. You’re not that important and you are cluttering too many threads. Maybe you should start linking to your past posts instead of repeating yourself so many times.
"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."
Joe Paterno
Uncivil!
“Sniping jackasses” is UNCIVIL!!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
That's from your particular point of view
From my point of view:
I see a comment you write
I respond to that comment with MY thoughts on it
You don’t respond to MY thoughts, but widen the argument to incorporate OTHERS’ (who are apparently geographically aligned with me?) thoughts and argue against that.
I try to tell you that I’m not on a side, I’m trying to discuss something with you and prompt you to address MY particular point once again.
You tell me you don’t do homework or that I’m not being civil or just completely change the subject.
If you can find a case where I clearly identified YOU as saying something with which you feel you should not have been identified,
Quite the opposite – you refuse to acknowledge my unique arguments when you can shoehorn your point into a response to some other general argument.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 11, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Not buying this either
I tried real hard to keep engaging you directly, and it was very difficult to do so in all the noise. Most of that was the fault of others, but when you were sometimes egging them on it was difficult to take you seriously in the subthreads in which you didn’t. Also, it IS very difficult to have a discussion about a group reaction to an event without generalizing.
I even told you at one point I was having a hard time with it; you can take that as it was honestly intended or believe it to be disingenuous – your choice.
I believe you
that you have a hard time with it. But at the same time, it’s really not that hard. Read within the four corners of the person’s comment box, and respond to their comment, and they can do vice versa.
It’s more a matter of willingness to try than anything else.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Still trying?
Better man the me. I prefer to call him names nasty names that were popularized on the 80’s sitcom Small Wonder.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Jan 12, 2012 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
whats wrong with working at burger king?
are you above that?
keep winning ugly
by tlrpsu on Jan 10, 2012 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I flunked BK school.
Couldn’t remember what came after, "Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce . . . "
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I believe it is
M1EK’s absurd claims upset us.
Reporter: Can you give us a touchdown celebration, one that you would get penalized for?
Moye: I play at Penn State. I don’t celebrate.
by psupride on Jan 11, 2012 8:27 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Not only a crime you didn't witness
but a “witness” that didn’t report a crime.
Joe got an ambiguous muddled “report” that he did not fully comprehend about a guy who did not work for him and who was not using the facilities under his control or auspices

given the very ambiguous nature of Paterno’s replies
"I’m not sure exactly what it was"
"Well I don’t know what you would call it"
"Whatever you might call it".
It certainly does not convey any certainty as to what he was hearing?
something that has been pointed out time and again without effect because the person promoting this “Joe heard about a crime” distortion isn’t interested in the truth – He is only interested in blaming JOE.
So no crime was reported
It was not his employee or anyone under his control involved
So he called the appropriate administrators who had control the next morning and referred Mike McQueary to them exactly as he should have.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
That’s window dressing. Key portions in that excerpt:
young boy
[H]e was doing something with the youngster. It was [of] a sexual nature.
Doing something of a sexual nature+youngster=crime.
We have the transcript and we can read
IN CONTEXT
“Well I don’t know what you would call it. Obviously he was doing SOMETHING with the youngster. It was sexual nature? I’m not sure exactly what it was” = NO evident crime involved with the obvious ? after sexual nature.
The question mark is not implied. It is expressed with “I don’t know what you would call it” an “I’m not sure exactly what it was”
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 11, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And remember
this is 9 years after the incident – recollections of an 84 year old of a 10 minute meeting.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
1LisHell and M1EK make the same mistake
They take words out of context to indict Joe and forget the actual FACTS of the case as expressed under oath by MM himself
1) He presupposed a sex act from 3 slaps he erroneously calls rhythmic and sexual – 3 slapping sounds can neither be rhythmic or sexual
2) He caught two 1 or 2 second glances of a back
3) He saw no hands or genitals
4) He claims a suspicion of “intercourse of some kind” with little movement, no pain, distress, or calling out, and no view of it
5) He does not intervene and runs off without returning
6) He purposely refuses to tell Paterno the details – because he has no details
7) He fails to convince either his father or Dr Dranov that he witnessed as sex act or to call police
8) Paterno still puts him together with the two people – VP in charge of police and AD – in the admin who should handle a witness of this type.
Paterno not only fulfilled his legal and moral responsibility – he did it on a Sunday and he was not told of a crime.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 11, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Agree
And I believe that McQueary testified that it was 2 or 3 slaps.
by dontcallmescooter on Jan 11, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Have you ever considered...
that he refused to tell Paterno (75 years old at the time) the details for the same reason somebody else might not want to give you a point by point recitation of why some of the things you are writing might not be totally accurate.
I mean it’s an uncomfortable conversation to have. It’s really tempting to say, “take my word for it, it was bad”.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 12, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
And seriously dude?
I’ll restrain my impulses to act as badly as you have here – for the time being.
Is this some kind of threat? Save it.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm giving less than I'm getting
Don’t exaggerate my position to win points with the peanut gallery and I’ll be nice. Keep doing it, and I won’t. This is not a threat.
You'll probably be sainted for your work here
You are quite a martyr.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Jan 10, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Doesn't he have to be dead to be a martyr?
Hmmmm . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, um, we don't do this here.
by Chris Grovich on Jan 10, 2012 9:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, Chris, if that was misinterpreted.
I was just trying to clarify if a martyr can be living, or if, by definition, has to be deceased.
I’ll try to clearer in the future.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
By definition
Has to be dead.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
by AriesGD on Jan 10, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
unless of course
he rose from the dead to defeat the steelers in the playoffs
Reporter: Can you give us a touchdown celebration, one that you would get penalized for?
Moye: I play at Penn State. I don’t celebrate.
by psupride on Jan 11, 2012 8:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this is what he does
I like to just post pictures and spells from Harry Potter. More fun and so far has not been deemed UNCIVIL
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
by letsgopsu on Jan 10, 2012 10:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I LOVE NEVILLE
most underrated character of the series.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
LOL, someone posted this on Facebook today, enjoy

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
by letsgopsu on Jan 10, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Honestly, the other guys need makeup to be truly hot
he is just all man, baby! That’s how he killed the snake!
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
nothing against the Gingers
this particular one just is not hot
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
I know, it's so sad
I have such hope for the gingers…and his brothers weren’t hot either.
When I was a junior at Penn State I knew a British international student who was a ginger, and man was HE hot. I always thought he should go back and play Bill (he was a part time actor, IIRC).
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
He seems to threatening to break out the "creepy pervert" claim
again as if something he might call you should be feared or dreaded?
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
I wasn't going to post...
But once again your lack of experience biases your view. Jesse did excellent, unbiased work here. You need to check out your own motivations.
There are specific rules in big institutions, not to mention fiercely guarded turf. You don’t cross lines willy nilly. While McQ’s story to Joe sounds juicy now. At the time it was little more than hear-say.
You simply cannot go off all “chicken little” at a giant institution like Penn State and expect to keep your job. Joe did exactly what he was supposed to do. Now if you want to take a moral exception to that, go ahead.
And this…
And, again, this does not mean Paterno has ‘final responsiblity’. He had some responsiblity, legally, which he actually satisfied, unlike, apparently, several other bozoes in this affair. Great, we’re not arguing about them, but I’ve made it crystal clear that on the spectrum from "didn’t do enough" to "final responsibility", that Paterno is on the far left side. Doesn’t mean he’s not on there at all. Doesn’t mean you should feel good about conflating this so you can look better in front of the rest of the audience here either.
Well, that’s just crap.
Re: 'I wasn't going to post'
You’ve got good instincts. It wouldn’t hurt to follow them.
jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.
This is complete bullshit
You simply cannot go off all "chicken little" at a giant institution like Penn State and expect to keep your job.
You make it sound like Joe Paterno was the mail room clerk in a F500 corporation. Give me a break.
Let me get this straight:
Paterno should have done more, but the actual eye witness, you know, the person who actually saw the events, and, you know, knows what actually happened, shouldn’t have?
Why is it on Paterno to do more and not, you know, the actual eye witness?
by misdreavus79 on Jan 11, 2012 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
Where did you see me
say what McQueary should or shouldn’t have done?
If you would like to know, ask nicely, and I’ll tell you.
You have yet to mention McQueary on this thread,
so it’s not a farfetched thing to conclude based on what you’ve said in this thread.
If anybody had a responsibility to “do more” (and by “do more”, I mean going to the police) here is McQueary, because he’s the eye witness. Paterno “does more” based on hearsay, and he gets laughed at. Period. Whether you’d like to believe it or not. Especially since McQueary didn’t even tell him the details of what he saw.
But go ahead, tell me what more Paterno could have done that McQueary himself couldn’t have done.
by misdreavus79 on Jan 11, 2012 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I have mentioned McQueary
a few times very early on. I said I give him more benefit of the doubt because he was truly dropped into an awful situation for which he could not possibly have been prepared – it’d be like walking in on your grandfather or your uncle doing something horrible when you’re a teenager and having to report it to your dad.
Joe was 75 years old and the head of the program. I expected more from him than just reporting it up the chain.
My friend, that makes no sense.
How are you going to give the benefit of the doubt to the only person who can indeed go to the police (by the way, your only mention of McQueary in this thread prior to me bringing it up was when you said his report should have been taken to the police —my point exactly) yet at the same time crucify a third party because he’s a head coach?
So you’re saying because Paterno was head coach he was prepared to handle the situation better? What is it about being 75 and a head coach that inherently prepares you to handle a case of sexual abuse?
Oh, and a little note: Sandusky was not part of the program at the time of the allegations, so using his position actually detracts from your point.
Are we also going to crucify McQueary’s father and his friend? He told them too…
by misdreavus79 on Jan 12, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
No M1EK is pretty satisfied just crucifying Joe
Of course he’ll say that the others are to be assumed.
Oh, give me a break.
You honestly think Joe Paterno was less well equipped to know what to do than a grad assistant in his 20s? Really?
And Sandusky was Joe Paterno’s right hand man from the day McQueary was born until a couple of years before the incident. The fact that he wasn’t in the program any more was irrelevant.
Perhaps not less equiped
But if you’re not a man by 26 (or 28, I forget), then chances are you’re never going to get there. Let’s say no less equipped, ok?
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Jan 12, 2012 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
The fact he wasn't in the program anymore was irrelevant?
And you are guy that accuses the strawman arguments?
Sigh.
"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."
Joe Paterno
Do you understand the difference between an explanation and an excuse?
Because I didn’t read Jesse’s piece as an excuse of actions, but as a possible explanation as to why things may have happened the way they did. I realize that there are others who will take an explanation and try to turn it into an excuse, but they aren’t the same thing.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but is it safe to assume that there is no explanation of Joe’s actions that would satisfy you? Having read a lot (if not most) of your commentary, I’m guessing not. Because IF Joe did go further in his actions than what we KNOW right now, those actions failed. Which is why, even if he would come out and have evidence that he was told there was an investigation and that nothing was found to be actionable, I doubt that would satisfy you.
I understand the argument about people having something invested in covering something like that up. And there might still be some evidence of a conspiracy to be uncovered. But after two months of incredibly heavy media attention, the most credible evidence we have is of horribly bungled bureaucracy.
I too am troubled what appears to be a lack of action on Joe’s part. I also understand that this situation appears to be a lot more black and white to some people than to others. I guess I’m just trying to figure out if your position is fixed on the spectrum, or if it’s more in reaction to what you perceive other people’s positions to be.
by psu87intn on Jan 10, 2012 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
What would satisfy me
is if we learned that Joe went outside the power structure of the university and was just told to cool it (or buzz off) by cops that weren’t on campus.
This gets ignored by those who want to believe that no other police would ever even listen to a report of a crime possibly being covered up by fellow ‘police’ (the jurisdiction argument). But if I learned that Joe went to the SCPD, at least, I’d feel a lot better about what he did.
State police would be better, since they’d be better positioned to deal with an inferior police force apparently not doing their job, but I’d accept SCPD.
Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, then I'm guessing there will be no satisfaction for you, unfortunately.
And I think a lot of that rides on the word “apparently.” Because what’s apparent now may not have been apparent then—at least not to Joe. (The whole “hindsight” thing.)
IF he was told that it had been investigated and there wasn’t anything actionable that could be done, and he was told by two people he trusted, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to understand why he didn’t take it outside the university. And I think that’s where you get the push-back from most people—by dogmatically Insisting that there is no reasonable explanation other than callous disregard. (which is how your “just file a report and forget about it” comes off.)
I certainly hope we get to hear from Joe. I may ultimately not agree with the actions he chose, but gaining more knowledge of his thought process at the time would certainly help me understand them.
by psu87intn on Jan 10, 2012 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
By the way, I swear I didn't use the word "dogmatic" to piss you off
Just now read the other thread and saw that’s a word that frustrates you. If I could delete it, I would.
I, however, see an opportunity here.
Dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic dogmatic
/grabs popcorn, waits for explosion
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 6:28 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Outside the power structure. For something he didn't witness.
To police without jurisdiction over the location of the alleged crime. Without testimony from an alleged victim.
Got it (I think.)
Joe Paterno Apologist
by Joe 96alum on Jan 10, 2012 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the fundemental place we disagree is this...
…to paraphrase his position, is that because he had not seen, or been told about satisfactory (or any) progress regarding the “investigation” that he had a moral responsibility to follow up outside the power-structure.
What I said above is two fold; 1 Neither Curley nor Schultz had any obligation to tell Joe Paterno anything, and as a result they could have told him any number of things or nothing at all, and 2 unless the person you reported this incident to had additional questions, you would have no expectation of getting an explanation (see part 1). Additionally, if you read Novak’s work, you get a much better feeling for Orwellianness of the Beauracracy. I simply posted it is afact, he provides numerous explanations and examples.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
...and there's my problem with a lot of people.
In Joe’s experience, the system worked. For all the head-butting between Joe, JA, the Centre County DA (not to mention specific players like Ms. Triponey), the end result of involving University and local law enforcement authority was that not only were the guilty punished, but often the suspected were made as examples. If Joe was sure that Schultz knew about the situation, and had no reason to believe that Schultz was incompetent, then not seeing any further investigation probably meant that there really wasn’t any fire behind the smoke that McQueary reported.
If you can actually move your perspective away from looking through the prism of the Grand Jury presentment, you might actually get back to the point where everybody was back in March – remember when we first heard about the Grand Jury investigation, and mostly dismissed it as likely somebody trying to get a settlement out of Second Mile? Up until Joe heard about the 2002 incident, with or without knowledge of the 1998 investigation (‘the charges were dismissed, and he’s still authorized by the state to work with kids – there’s no way those suspicions had any merit’) there was nothing to suggest that Sandusky was given to hanging out at playgrounds wearing dark glasses and a trenchcoat – yeah that description is a little over the top, but I’m trying to make the point that we’re talking about a behavior that’s so far out of line for a person who works with kids in plain view of lawyers, judges, and who knows how many child-welfare workers of one type or another, every day at Second Mile.
There’s more to this train of thought, but I’ve already moved well away from the direction that this sub-thread was already going…
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 6:55 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not buying this either.
You’re engaged in dogmatic rationalization here.
Sandusky was banned from bringing kids on campus, supposedly, although this restriction was apparently as toothless as anything else. While this was gutless and weak, it was something that should have indicated to Joe that “there’s some way those suspicions had some merit”.
And likely did.
Sandusky was banned from bringing kids on campus after 2002.
That has no bearing on anyone’s knowledge of the 1998 investigation.
…and you’re talking about a plan of action that was endorsed by Graham Spanier – a man with a background in children and family counseling. Surely if anyone has their finger on the pulse of who is or isn’t prone to molesting children, it’s somebody like that, right?
Again, you have to put the Grand Jury presentment completely out of the thought process if you’re going to get an accurate idea of what an individual’s thought processes could have been in 2002, because dogmatic rationalization was a much more reasonable course of action at that point.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Not buying this
Sandusky continued to hang around with kids and continued to hang around the program. This is not a case where it wasn’t clear what, if anything, had been done. This was a case where it was obvious nothing had been done.
Maybe you are referring to a different time period...
but I could swear McQueary testified that he never saw Sandusky around the program again with kids (at least on PSU’s campus). He was certainly around the program, but I haven’t heard anything to indicate that he did not listen to the directive not to bring kids around UP again. Of course, maybe I’m mistaken…
by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 11, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Damn those pesky "facts"
that keep popping up!! Interferes with the lynch mob (of one) frenzy.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
You parsed the sentence incorrectly.
(Sandusky continued to hang around with kids)
and
(Sandusky continued to hang around the program)
is not the same thing as
(Sandusky continued to bring kids to the program)
Except 1 is true.
2 is true. But there is no evidence that 3 is after 2002. That is conjecture.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Who's fault is this, really?
Sandusky continued to hang around with kids
The Second Mile was informed of an investigation that took place. If they chose not to follow up Sandusky hanging around kids is on them.
Sandusky was barred from bringing kids onto campus after the 2002 incident. Penn State’s administration has no right to regulate Sandusky’s actions that don’t pertain to them
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 11, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
It seems odd to me
that the CEO or whatever of that Charity isn’t getting a failure tor report charge.
The NCAA is investigating Second Mile.
They hired Jim Tressel.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes.
When the police with supposed jurisdiction didn’t do anything, and the crime was child sexual abuse, and the location was the locker room of his football program.
You left that part out. Not surprised.
As far as anyone knows
no crime was committed on Mar 1, 2002
There is no victim
and all that exists are a number of conflicting statements about 3 claps and two 1 or 2 second glances of a back.
and then nine years pass and the AG through the Grand Jury Presentment puts out a complete distortion and LIE attributed to Mike McQueary
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
I certainly read it as an explanation,
as an attempt to understand and come away with something useful.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
You know what would be useful
Subjecting individuals to scorn, replacing them, and moving forward.
/drifts single cell towards light
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 11, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
Good stuff, Jesse.
I forced my ADD-addled mind to follow the entire line of thought and think you nailed it. The only small quibble that I have is that I think it would have been reasonable for PSU to have policies focused on protecting minors because of all the youngsters who attend summer sports camps at PSU. Both of my kids attended camps (basketball and volleyball) while in middle school and/or early high school. Again, nice write up.
by CvilleLion on Jan 10, 2012 8:28 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
I agree with your point on that.
My daughter has attended the soccer camp there for the past 3 summers — and the last two have been overnights. Those camps have thousands of kids attend them (for not a small fee BTW), so the University was exposed to a ton of liability if it didn’t have some level of policy regarding reporting assaults against minors.
.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts
Thank you for your work, jesse.
And for the excellent analysis.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 8:39 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Wait, so basically what you're saying is...
You’re pro-child rape and you defend child rapists because football is bigger to you than right and wrong. Got it.
— National Columnist or Talk Show Host
You didn't use the sarcasm font, FTFY...
Wait, so basically what you’re saying is…
You’re pro-child rape and you defend child rapists because football is bigger to you than right and wrong. Got it.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I liked it without sarcasm, Paige,
because it so represents my position on things.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oops
I didn’t mean to violate board protocol. I don’t know how to do use the sarcasm font.
I weep for anyone who reads that and thinks reducing a well-considered treatise on where Penn State is right now to an absurd, media-centric talking point is somehow a legitimate point. Egads.
I was just playing with you, really.
I didn’t think you were being serious. I’m not really in a serious mood tonight!
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
So what you're really implying is...
You think a crazed mob tipping over a TV truck and pelting an ESPN hairdo is A-OK.
Wait, I’m not learning here am I…
Of course not,
but is it really right to blame 40,000 students or more for a few hundred’s actions? Or call a 500K alumni (dues paying base) facilitators of child rape?
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
by Paige2PSU on Jan 10, 2012 10:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I know this is a joke, and I took it as such.
But logically extended it’s actually what pisses me off about the whole thing. The Sports Radio station in Pittsburgh talks about this a great deal, unless, people would rather talk about the Steelers. So by extension, child sexual abuse is slightly less important than whether or not Ben Roethlisberger will be ready to go against San Francisco. Or in the alternative, it’s as important as ratings.
Even if every word I wrote is apologist drivel, at least it’s my own personal honest attempt to quantify what happened, and offer some solutions to fix the problem so it never happens again. That makes my apolgist opinion better than a hard assed lunatic’s that thinks Penn State should get the Death Penalty.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 10, 2012 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey man, it's much easier to be a critic
Than to be someone who creates something. I say this as someone who has never really created anything. I’m just letting you know I appreciate what you did here, and even if I didn’t agree personally with about 90% of it (I do), I’d respect it.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 10, 2012 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
This is just about the only place you’re going to see something like what you put together. The time it takes most normal people — let alone the media — to deconstruct what happened and put it back together is beyond their grasp. It’s easier to rely on preconceived notions, biases and under-informed superficiality. I’m not really letting “them” off the hook about this, I just think we are operating under unrealistic expectations when we crave others give this the same amount of serious thought that we do. So frustrating.
Which is yet another reason why the panicky actions taken in the first 72 hours or so of this exploding outward were critical in shaping the story. Since the extremely important public relations people were all late that morning they talked about crisis management in their PR classes, this is now a forever lost opportunity. In hindsight, I wished they’d done more.
BTW, kudos again…
by Jitterbug on Jan 10, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's easier
to be a critic than to try to fix things.
But also, and I suspect you know this, it’s a lot easier to rationalize away the sins of those on “our team” than it is to honestly assess them as if they were, say, committed at Ohio State.
Mr. Spock summed it up best in Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan:
’It is one of the oldest laws in the universe. It is easier to destroy than to create."
Ergo, it is easier to be a destroyer
than to be a creator. That explains a great deal.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
I got room on my drunk bus for ya, Bug.
Just wait in the bar with the rest of the lushes until I get there.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
I need to be more careful what I type.
Chris cut me some major slack on one of my earlier remarks,
Amended: “Just loiter in the drinking establishment with the other non-recovering drinkers.”
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I do type statements like a binge drinker,
so I’ll go ahead and own it. LUSHES, WOOO!!!!
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
"Another one rides the bus, and another down, and
another one — ANOTHER ONE RIDES THE BUS."
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
man, now I have that song in my head!
I am very susceptible to musical suggestions (just ask Dawson, I’m still waiting on payback from one…)
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Jan 10, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
A Weird Al reference
Bet you’re old enough to know about Usenet.
by Jitterbug on Jan 10, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Probably old enough,
not technologically astute enough.
Rings a bell, tho. I worked at MCI for eight years . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 10, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Right after
I get my rotary smart phone, I’m getting an app for Usenet. Then I can post about feelings about the latest Weird Al LP.
is that the one
Where Dog’s wrath comes down upon mankind?
All of our comments are irrelevant - LetsGoPSU
by jaytay13 on Jan 12, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good post
and thanks for taking the time to write it.
I still think the BOT made JoePa a scapegoat, but in the world that we live in I understand why it happened.
The whole problem I have with JoePa being assigned even a degree of moral culpability is that he wasn’t the witness to the 2002 incident. This is a BIG deal. How much do you rattle cages when you yourself didn’t witness the event? You only know what you’ve been told. In the ‘02 incident, we have a situation where the witness McQuery sat in a meeting with the supervisor of the police. Once this takes place, everyone else becomes peripheral. You can’t hold someone morally culpable for the failure of others to do their basic job.
Joe Paterno Apologist
by Joe 96alum on Jan 10, 2012 10:55 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Hey, your sig is a registered trademark!
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 10, 2012 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
I had mine first!
Maybe. I think I may have seen it in a comment in a post first.
Joe Paterno Apologist
Will there be more to come?
If and when this matter is resolved in the courts I would like to know the depth of any and all investigations. Much has been made of the “With the benefit of hindsight” quote but there has been no attention at other points of Coach Paterno’s limited statement(s).
"Sue [Paterno’s wife] and I have devoted our lives to helping young people reach their potential. The fact that someone we thought we knew might have harmed young people to this extent is deeply troubling. If this is true, we were all fooled, along with scores of professionals trained in such things, and we grieve for the victims and their families. They are in our prayers.
Emphasis mine. I don’t believe this to be a haphazard statement, though the term “scores” may be hyperbole. Who are these othres and trained professionals and what was their involvement?
Striving for Success with Honor
by Frank O'Brien on Jan 10, 2012 11:41 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Second Mile would be my guess.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Oooh! That's a Bingo!

Aurabass is definitely on to something.
Striving for Success with Honor
by Frank O'Brien on Jan 10, 2012 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
That gave me an "ah ha' moment Frank
Wonder what the makeup of the Second Mile staff actually was
Surely there were trained child psycologists and social workers on staff.
Did they not try to discover and ascertain the cause of any emotional problems that might have stemmed from abuse?
Did they not notice reactions to Sandusky among these kids?
Was there not a system in place to secure these kids at second mile in order to protect them from predators?
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 11, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is exactly the point I tried to make above.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
State child protective services (or some other group with a similar name)
was involved in the ‘98 investigation. They are the ones who ultimately decided there wasn’t enough info for charges and that’s why the investigation never went anywhere. Why isn’t anyone talking about that?
Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson
Not only that...
they also had the authority to inform Second Mile that there was enough meat to the charges that Sandusky shouldn’t be working unsupervised with kids any more, even if there wasn’t enough for criminal prosecution. The fact that they didn’t even go that far is what makes who-knew-what-about-1998 a complete red herring in my mind.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 12, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Devil's Advocate?
Why isn’t anyone talking about that?
Because there was a police investigation rather than a sloppy University inquiry.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Graham Spanier
has a Ph D. in sociology and is a licensed marriage and family therapist. So he’s a bit more qualified than a football coach in these matters . . .
Joe Paterno Apologist
by Joe 96alum on Jan 10, 2012 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If only somebody would have told him.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
It was almost definitely scores
Child welfare service agencies had open reports on Sandusky at least through the mid-00’s. There are, in fact, a lot of constraints in this area of the law on what people can and cannot do, even if they desire to do more.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 10, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So why is it then that everyone insists Paterno should have done more?
Is it unreasonable to expect that these professionals adequately investigated the accusations against Sandusky? I’d also include Curley and Schulz in this expectation.
Striving for Success with Honor
by Frank O'Brien on Jan 11, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
Was anybody involved in this other than Joe Paterno?
I ask because Penn State = Joe Paterno in 135% of everyone ever. To them, Curley, Schultz, McQueary and frankly very likely Sandusky are all new people who essentially didn’t exist before. So to wrap one’s head around the possibility that the only person they know of at Penn State AND the one who’s been there forever and a week is inside a chain of command is just a bridge too far.
Also this: everyone has heard about how awesome Joe is. If he’s as awesome as everyone says he is, then he should have easily stopped a horrific act by a (alleged) monster when he had the “chance.” If not, then he’s a decrepit, senile old coot who failed us all and must pay the price because of his complicity. There can’t be anything in between those two poles because that possibility introduces a level of complexity to the situation that requires people to admit they know less than they thought about Penn State, child molestation and most importantly, themselves.
by Jitterbug on Jan 11, 2012 12:28 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Because *Insert random child welfare agent here* Should Have Done More headlines
don’t sell the way Paterno Disgraced does
Formerly known as kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Jan 11, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
Awesome reading
and I like your tip of the hat to engineering.
In most of the instances, you have a mistake, coupled with opportunities to correct the mistake that get missed, coupled with bad luck.
the reading I have done seems to show that when systems fail, there may be a single catastrophic event, but it frequently occurs as a result of multiple, coincident failures, each within its own anticipated safety factor.
ie. the Titanic.
a lot of little mistakes and all line up and make one horrific disaster.
Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson
Another great reasonable thread
ruined by that asshole M1EK.
Excellent and well thought out post Jesse. I don’t agree with everything, but I can see where your thoughts are coming from. THe most important things I agree with are the lack of an evil coverup, which is so clear to anyone interested in looking at the facts we know; the recognition that Paterno is due, although I think it should be done immediately; and the comments about the media/public focus hurting what the actual morale of the story should be.
by FB6244 on Jan 11, 2012 8:05 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I'll repeat the warning I just sent you, for everyone's benefit.
Please don’t call other commenters “asshole”. We expect better from the commenters here.
by Chris Grovich on Jan 11, 2012 9:18 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
So is name calling only allowed by the mods?
by Btd121 on Jan 11, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
And
their best buds. That would appear to be the case.
Chris has called out several posters and warned them of a ban, but let a buddy of his do the same thing, and it doesn’t matter how many times it’s flagged, no warning, no nothing…
It takes courage to stand behind someone you believe in when it’s this bad outside. It takes courage to stand up for a man in peril, even if he stood up for you. - JoePo on JoePa
I'll give Chris credit for at least contacting the guy to give him a warning.
I was banned from a Cetics blog for repeated profanity. Never given a warning. Chris will at least give you a chance first.
You do good work, Chris.
Banned from a Celtics blog for profanity?
That doesn’t make any sense. Did you suggest Larry Bird could have been better at some aspect of basketball?
I'm the XBOX to your Atari.
Did you give Bird the bird?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
They never told me. I just went to log in and it said I was banned.
I think what happened was I got amped up and torqued and upset about all the injuries my beloved Celtics have endured every season after they’ve won a championship since 1986, and the profanities started to fly out of frustration and despair.
Would never, ever, ever, say anything bad about Larry. What bad could be said?
Larry Bird is from Indiana.
That’s what bad could be said.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
I was just thinking the Celtics people I've encountered all tend to enjoy profanity, so your violation must have been something far more sinister.
I'm the XBOX to your Atari.
Couldn't resist.

Inexplicably, I saw this in the theater. #GoSixers
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
He does
As do all the other contributors to the site.
Don’t take my prior statement as an indictment on the good work done here at BSD. It’s my PSU home away from home.
That being said, I’ve flagged M1EK numerous times for name calling and derision of other posters on the same threads where Chris was warning his detractors and not so much as a peep was uttered. Sounds like a definite double standard to me.
It takes courage to stand behind someone you believe in when it’s this bad outside. It takes courage to stand up for a man in peril, even if he stood up for you. - JoePo on JoePa
As long as the comments run up (i.e., we feed the troll), Chris will be happy
There’s really no other justification that makes sense, since this one person never posts anything new.
To paraphrase Newt Gingrich, I think the balogna pious act should cease.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Jan 11, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Has anyone ever seen Grovich and M1EK in the same room at the same time?
Striving for Success with Honor
by Frank O'Brien on Jan 11, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I ask myself that question all the time
about Reggie and Cheryl Miller.
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
Has anyone ever seen M1EK and Vicky Triponey together?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
This is totally true.
I will keep creating more M1EKBOTZ until every thread is over 1,000 comments.
by Chris Grovich on Jan 11, 2012 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
You collectively reffered to people as jackasses
10 minutes ago.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 11, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes.
Not the same thing. And collective. And you have no idea which people I was referring to, although I’m sure you can guess.
Again, show where I called nylyst, for instance, an asshole.
That seems like a pretty self-serving parse to me.
We either call other people assholes or jackasses or we don’t.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Not the same thing at all.
You have been able to say jackass on network TV for a long time now. And, again, I did not say “ is a ”.
Not remotely the same caliber of attack, and not personal.
Can you please provide us with a complete list of the double standards you expect?
It would greatly help us jackasses to stay in line while worshipping our dogmatized deity.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 11, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Here's a hint
When Red Foreman can call his son a jackass twice a week on broadcast TV for years, it’s not the same thing, remotely, as “asshole”.
Nice try, though.
I heard someone say asshole on TV
I think it was Always Sunny though. They also get to say shit on that show.
Side note, Always Sunny is the best show on television
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 11, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
Actually
The League is much better at this point.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
The problem with the league
Is that if you miss one episode, your SOL because they don’t put the most recent episode on demand until the following week. And its a show that you have to watch week to week. It lost me half way through last season because of this.
Its Always Sunny has been spot on this season. Particularly the Anti-social network.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 11, 2012 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
My Wife is a Blu-Ray Completest
7 times out of 10 I don’t bother to watch first run shows at all. The other 3 we DVR them. We actually have our DirecTV DVR Box hooked up to a hard drive, we can record like 1,000 hours of television. It’s absurd. Between those two things and NetFlix, missing episodes is not really my problem.
We actually saved an entire season of Damages (which is f@#king awesome if you’ve never seen it) and watched on a dead Sunday. I mostly prefer to watch TV shows that way anyway.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I guess I'll start doing that
I just got a DVR, but I don’t use it. Maybe I’ll get some use out of it someday
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 11, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
It's the Hard Drive that makes it.
The one you get with the box only holds like 30 hours of shows. Ours is set up like, “Ohh, Gladiator, I’ll watch that someday…record”. We had Gran Torino on the DVR for more than a year.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I've got about 3 unused HDs laying around
I guess I’ll plug one of those terabyte suckers into it and start recording
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 11, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
We did the same thing with our movies.
Wife and i had close to 400 DVD’s, friends at least 600 more. We’ve been burning them all on to a common HD, which we will use in only legal ways.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Jesse., are you allowed to explain
how you have that set-up? Wife was just commenting that she has the DirecTV DVR about full, and was trying to figure out what to delete or download. You can e-mail me if you can’t open source that.
Thanks!
P.S. We are technologically challenged, so use simple terms.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry that's all Wife.
I can barely download a Phish CD of the internet. It’s almost comical.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Gotcha.
I’ll ask the wife to google the concept . . . Great idea — thanks for sharing.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
DirecTV probably has the instructions.
I’ll ask her about it when she’s done with the boy’s bedtime story.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
What's tonight's story?
My boys are way past that stage, unfortunately. We are fast approaching the stage where they will read to me, and probably have to feed me, too.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds Like Scooby Doo.
A ghost in mexico or some shit like that.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Try "Diggers and Dump Trucks" or
“Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs”. DADT isn’t a story per se, but the boys loved the pics of earth-movers and heavy equipment.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
He's 4.5...
He needs a story at this point. Preferably one with Spiderman.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Hug him often.
He’ll be 20 before you know it . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
I'm afraid of that.
And I’ll be 50.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I'm 53, boys
are 21 and 19.
Sigh. Not about my age, but at the time going SO quickly . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
Wife responds...
You basically plug a hard drive into the back. DirecTV actually has instructions and a list of compatible drives. It’s a feature of your DVR box, not a hack or a cheat.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Many thanks to the Wife.
Will pass along to mine for implementation.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
A Phishhead?
Your credibility and esteem just rose by leaps and bounds in my estimation.
My daughter dated Mike Gordon for awhile and as a former Burlington VT resident I am an ardent admirer and friend of the band.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
25 shows and counting.
Most recently at Woodstock this summer. I have tickets for Trey and Pittsburgh Symphony in February.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
You think so?
MUCH better? Maybe I don’t want to admit that you’re right – The League has definitely grown on me, and it’s hitting its stride now – but “much better” … I don’t know…
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
I'm with much better.
Sunny is on the downslide. The League is on the upswing, and to really appreciate you need to go back and watch the earlier seasons, because they are just as funny as the current ones, you just weren’t in on the jokes quite yet.
Kevin’s rant after David Akers missed the FG that cost him the Shiva Bowl is probably the funniest thing I’ve seen on TV in ten years.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I believe you're right
about re-watching the earlier seasons, since so much of the humor is derived from knowing and appreciating the characters. High learning curve character-driven comedies rarely disappoint me.
Another such show, for those on Netflix, is Trailer Park Boys. I highly recommend it. It’s Canadian, which is why you’ve probably never heard of it, but I was introduced to it by a friend who bought the DVD seasons on Ebay and was delighted to find it on streaming. It takes a few episodes to ramp up, because you have to get into the characters, but it’s well worth it once you do.
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
disagree
the bad episodes are worse than in the old days but there were no less than 7 outstanding and hilarious episodes this season. CharDee MacDennis and the episode where they get locked in the closet of that house were 2 of the 5 best of all time
My favorite is and will always be
“The World Series Defense”
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I have three favorites
The gang goes to prom from season 1
The gang solves the gas crisis in season 4
and
The anti-social network from season 7
The world series defense is great, as are many many other episodes
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 12, 2012 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
No No
One of hte best is “The Gang Dance’s their Asses Off” as well as “The Nightman Comenth”
How has no one mentioned the Nightman? Are any of you actual fans?
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
That part has lost humor for me.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 13, 2012 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry Octa
I considered the irony, tried to think of something witty, realized it was past my bed time and hit send anyway.
Keep singing bitch
I will slap your face off your face!!
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
I don't know...
That’s kind of like “Love Me Do” being your favorite Beatles song.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
They said "ass-hat" on Bones,
and that is a very cerebral program.
Can we get a ruling on “ass-hat”, Mr. Moderator?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sorry - I can't let this stand.
Bones has admittedly gotten better the last couple of seasons, but to call it cerebral is a real stretch. Entertaining, certainly – but on a technical level, it’s about on par with a Popular Mechanics article on hypothetical UFO technology.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 12, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
For those of us who are
non-medical personnel, it suffices. I submit it is “cerebral” compared to 92.8% of other television. Feel free to disagree.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 13, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
I have tried to get into it
and every time I do it seems like something I would like, but then I never stick with it.
Almost Sunny or
The League, M1EK?
Just curious . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
Almost Sunny.
And this is proof of the “hard to have a conversation in the middle of 100 people” problem. I was replying directly to “Always Sunny”, but even I have a hard time seeing it now without remembering the magic of the “Up” link.
Before I found BSD, I was on some other places
that had only “linear” conversations — boring.
M1EK, you may know I served in Special Forces — graduated from two sniper schools. I would NEVER seriously threaten anyone — I apologize to you and any others who were offended by my one remark last night.
Aside from that, you seem somewhat intelligent, aside from the fetish about Joe’s guilt. Maybe get some therapy and come ready to talk football.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Apology accepted
and what I meant was that as soon as the discussion is large enough, it is often difficult to see exactly what somebody’s responding to. Especially when you hit the maximum thread-depth, which happens very quickly in these things.
Appreciate it.
Will still bust your chops, tho — fore-warned is fore-armed..
I love the chaos of these threads!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
It took a while for my girlfriend to get into it as well
She actually hated it at first. Once she watched a few episodes and began to understand the characters/show she started watching it as often as she could.
The best part of the show, at least in my opinion is that its non-sequitar. There is some assemblance of a story line throughout the seasons, but overall the shows tend to stand on their own.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 12, 2012 9:20 AM EST up reply actions
So we're using FCC standards now?
then I’m going to start calling people “ass___es” (never understood why they bleep the hole part)
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 11, 2012 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
because an ass is not a curse as a standalone word
but an asshole is a body part. most/all words that are bleeped refer to a naughty organ in one way or another, whether it be an act to the part, or a reference to that part in general.
and of course the phrase GD, which is a relic of a bygone era. The reason goddamn being bleeped makes no sense is that its ok to say damn, just not goddamn. as if somehow its more reasonable to take if the word “god” is understood rather than expressed.
But all these rules are stupid. they’re just words people.
Thanks for setting me up for this, its not every day i get to use my undergrad degree attained knowledge for good.
Well, technically it is using God's name in vain,
whether they say God or GD. It really offends some people (like my dad).
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
Actually . . .
God is the job title.
More dicey might be taking chances with Yahweh or Jehovah followed by damn.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
by SubLime on Jan 12, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
no i get the theory behind it
but if i say “(god) damnit” or “god damnit” – is one really more tolerable if you are easily offended by that type of thing in the first place?
Thats what i dont get. if you arent offended by damnit by itself, then why should putting the word god beofre it make it any more or less offensive, they are both saying the same thing.
I don't know.
I personally don’t have a problem with it. I guess if you just say damn it, anyone could by damning it, not necessarily God? Or is God the only person who can do that? OK, I think I’m putting too much thought into this.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
No, the FCC standards only apply to the vast majority of us.
M1EK can still call us whatever he wants. We are the 99%.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Jan 12, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Can we pitch tents in his yard?
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
Maybe I should have said
@$$%()!e. Although the tangent is pretty funny.
everyone knows jackass is a term of endearment
asshole is just plain mean
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
It was used as a term of endearment in the lab today
not by me or to me, but by guys sitting next to me to each other.
Of course, we’ve also used the “I’m surrounded by assholes” line at work many times.

by M1EK on Jan 12, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Funny - I can see you looking an awful lot like Rick Moranis.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 12, 2012 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
You are getting into the most
neutered, gutless and chickenshit technical and semantic arguments today. You’re basically saying that being an insufferable passive-aggressive asshole is perfectly acceptable, and that only direct insults should carry any sort of disdain.
I do not agree with this.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 11, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
Not only is it acceptable, he's claiming he's doing it for the greater good.
So that the entire world can see that we are not all a bunch of child abuse enablers.
It seems that his desire to stop all forms of discourse is predicated on the fear that since he is affiliated with Penn State, anything we say or do will be a reflection on him. I certainly hope he’s not white, Christian, American, Muslim, German, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean, Nigerian, South African… um… you get where this is going, because if he was any of those, he might have to deal with a negative stigma from previous transgressions of a small group not representative of a much larger population.
Further, nobody here is disagreeing that it is not possible for Paterno to have failed morally. But since there are not enough known facts, we are exploring alternative narratives other than the one largely portrayed in the media. As facts comes out, we can eliminate some of the possibilities, but until they do, there is no harm in exploring them.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 12, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I will accept your criticism
when I see you applying it to the people flinging around much worse insults and being far more passive-aggressive – like the twitter clique, for instance.
Let me know.
I'm not the passive-aggressive police or whatever
If anyone ever takes that approach and then comes on here and starts sashaying around and acting like they’re some kind of hero for it or making technical arguments about why there’s no problem with it, then I will point it out to them, possibly rudely.
{and yes, I realize this comment was itself partially passive aggressive. Told you I wasn’t the police [let’s please not get into why I’m not and exactly at what point I could be so considered (that was also passive aggressive)]}
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 12, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
What insult is worse than calling someone a creepy pervert?
Is that really more appropriate than calling someone A-hole?
Thats ridiculous.
"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."
Joe Paterno
DO I UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY
THAT BTD WAS BANNED FROM BSD AFTER THIS COMMENT?
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
If you actually expected better
you would get rid of some of the trash.
Jesse.
Well done and thought out.
As for M1EK, I enjoy your posts and thoughts, but you do need to lighten up a bit. People have become much less hostile to you. It’s the internetz dude, chillax.
As for the rest of the BSD community, if you don’t care for M1EK then don’t engage and if you do engage, try to be nicer.
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 11, 2012 9:34 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
It's not due to uncivility, it's due to frustration
I can only speak for my own experience, but at no point did I set out to insult or be uncivil to M1EK. If I have done so, then I apologize as it was never my intention. Throughout the dialogues, I have gotten frustrated with what I believe to have become dogmatism over critical thinking and a lack of comprehension regarding what his replies have been to. I do not feel that it is an insult when you point out hypocrisy or ignorance. I have faced criticism in comments here and I have learned from them and used them to better myself. If every critique of his/her arguments is received as an insult or uncivil, that is not a burden to place on the commenter.
Further, as evidenced by this thread and countless others, it truly hinders the opportunity for open dialogue. Instead of being able to build upon ideas, it turns into a verbal confrontation and effectively ends all means of productive dialogue. When there are new/enlightened points made, they get buried in a myriad of repetition.
I am not advocating any censorship as I personally don’t believe in it. If M1EK wants to continue his means of dialogue, he/she is free to do so. I just wanted to give my opinion on the matter.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 11, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
And from my perspective
the dogmatism is coming from the other side – as well as an almost complete lack of introspection and critical thinking.
You are entitled to your opinions.
I do not think it is fair to claim a complete lack of introspection and critical thinking. Post such as the one these comments exist in are a perfect example of the introspection, critical thinking and comprehension that is being applied to this issue. Furthermore, it is apparent as new information emerges that people’s opinions and understandings change. New evidence gets incorporated into arguments, and new ideas are proposed.
The fundamental issue is that you are in disagreement with most people on these boards regarding what you consider to be definitive proof. Most statements made by myself and others are hypothetical, clearly indicated on If – Then premises. Looking through your comments, most things you state are made in a definitive manner. Doing this presents 2 hurdles to dialogue: 1) you establish yourself as the only opinion that matters and 2) it effectively ends the hypothetical dialogue as it becomes a yes or no battle instead of a conceptual discussion.
I have personally come to the conclusion that I am simply in disagreement with most of your thoughts. From my perspective, your definitive statements combined with a lack of effort in terms of comprehension and rationalization are what have given me the impression your arguments boil down to nothing but dogmatism. I welcome you to give your opinion of what happened, complete with supporting facts and rationale. I think this is also a cause for contention as you seem to have effectively only wish to tear down people’s arguments and search for answers instead of offer your own perspectives as well.
The ultimate goal of most of these conversations is to find some semblance of truth. In a situation where truth and evidence is markedly absent, it is a priority to stem the tide of ignorance. I think it would be beneficial for you to realize that this is the primary goal and go about commenting in a constructive way to help achieve this goal rather than to attempt to tear down what we are working to accomplish.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 11, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
Those of us who disagree with M1EK
are far more apt to offer fully developed thoughts and reasoning backed up by links and evidence to support our conclusions than M1EK
That is obvious from looking at this thread alone. The Wars of Words always initiated by M1EK and made to continue in lengthy streams down the right side of the comment thread are clear enough in their nature.
Jesse’s lengthy fanpost and the well thought out lengthy responses are all indicative of contemplation and introspection when compared to M1EK’s typically repetitive 2 to 4 sentence retorts and his constant whining about being attacked.
Anyone familiar with this style, and all of us who spend time reading and responding know exactly what to expect when M1EK gets involved. He will try to make every thread he can about HIM with the insistence he is being unfairly treated. His attack on Jesse in this thread is a case in point.
That whine then becomes the predictable – “I can’t say what I would like to say about you because I am restricted unlike you” (until he calls someone a “CREEPY PERVERT”. That is followed by the “I will not respond to you until you apologize” threat (and I must admit I don’t understand why anyone cares if he replies) He then claims that he is being civil while everyone else is not. And now claims that those of us who take the time to deliver well thought out and coherent arguments backed up with links and evidence are being dogmatic. I wonder what our Dogma is? I certainly do not worship at the church of Joe Paterno and I am not a member of the PSU faith. If anything my dogma is the Constitution and a belief in free expression along with the premise that innocence exists prior to trial and judgment – particularly for a man who has earned respect with a lifetime and is not even charged with a crime.
We’ve seen Octashields and PSUphysicist try valiantly to engage M1EK in a debate of reason with little or NO success. They have far more patience than I have.
Maybe I’m just getting old and cranky – and suffer from increased intolerance – but I don’t see the point in trying to be civil time after time with the same predictable end result. Once he decided to call me a CREEPY PERVERT that ended any requirement on my part to be civil toward him and I admit that my limited civility ran out long ago and it seems to me he is a cancer on this site. – but that’s just my opinion
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 11, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I agree completely.
Believe me, I support you as well as everyone else that has had these futile arguments. It is greatly appreciated. I’ve tried myself, and I know that I have gotten nowhere other than frustration.
I hate to see opportunities to have intelligent discourse ruined by the same 2-4 line diatribes over and over. I greatly appreciate everything you’ve done for this community. The information and support you’ve provided has been invaluable to myself and hopefully many others as well. It saddens me to see it get ruined so easily.
I really have no idea as to the best course of action from here. I turn to these comment threads for 1 of 2 purposes: entertainment or constructive reasoning. It seems like when M1EK posts, I am left unfulfilled regardless of which motivation I’ve had for coming here. I think at the end of the day though, we just need to ignore it, as hard as it is, because if we allow it to ruin our experience with this site, then M1EK is accomplishing his goal.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 11, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
2-4 line diatribes...
Don’t forget the incessant use of the word ‘sashay’ (attributed to Chris, yet I can’t find a single instance where he used the word) – there’s nothing like a barb that’s obviously intended to elicit homophobia for stimulating intelligent discourse.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sashay's a quality word and you people shouldn't jump on M1EK for using it.
I'm the XBOX to your Atari.
M1EK lives to be jumped on
as he sashays around these threads doing the same old dance step by step.
Maybe we should post a poll to see how many BSD posters are against the word sashay?
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Anyone remember City Slickers?
Starring Billy Crystal and Jack Palance? I just keep thinking of this line from Crystal’s character:
"Hello boys. I thought I’d mosey on over here. You know, I’ve never mosied before. I’ve walked, I’ve ambled…I even sashayed once, but that was in the front of the draft board."
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
by PSU_Buch on Jan 11, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Jack Palance:
Have Gun, Will Travel. Dude got more mileage out a menacing look than almost anybody else.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
Boss Carl Grissom!
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Indeed.
There you have it. Some anti-M1EK folks pay lip service to trying to find common ground with M1EK, but if you can’t see eye to eye on sashaying, I don’t think you’re really trying.
I'm the XBOX to your Atari.
^ This
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
I would not expect any of you to know this exists, but SASHAY!
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
ewww
I wish I had not watched that
"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010
Yes, In fact Rupaul is exactly what comes to mind every time I hear the word.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
You may think you're having intelligent discourse with aurabass.
You should be aware that what aurabass looks like to the rest of the world is somebody who’s spending way too much time on the minutia of sexual intercourse between an old man and a boy for their own good. And that the rest of the world finds him as creepy as I do (hint: check out his attempts to spread this gospel at Daily KOS).
So you now speak for the rest of the world?
Once again, most of us on these boards are not concerned with public perception. We are concerned with learning and understanding the truth. If you find that creepy then remove yourself from the conversation. Nobody is forcing you to be here and nobody is asking you to represent whatever perspective you feel necessary to be represented.
I do not wish to continue debating you, but my personal belief on the matter is that until a crime is determined to have occurred, I will withhold judgment. I do not feel that it is fair to administer punishment prior to an action being proven. If you feel that this is something the public perspective will not support, I frankly do not care. That is why I am here and not on ESPiN or Daily KOS. If you feel it necessary to let the world know that not all Penn Staters support child rape, maybe you’d be better served remaining on those boards.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 11, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Bad ideas should be confronted
especially when shared affiliation is at stake. So, no, I won’t be leaving you to wallow here.
Ignoring what the rest of the world thinks is a sure-fire way to come off more like Jonestown than Happy Valley.
"Bad ideas should be confronted."
Congratulations. You have just proved that even a visually impaired squirrel can find an acorn once in a while.
You may want to ponder your own words when considering the number of people and posts trying to cure you of your delusions.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Oh, I consider the merits of your opinions --
it just doesn’t take me long to separate the pepper from the fly crap in your so-called arguments. I then turn to mockery, since dogmatic people tend to cause that reaction in me.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Bring it on, bro.
Right now, you sound constipated. Might help if you let go of some of it.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sweet
Another internet “sack up and stab me”.
That is two on this thread. Love it.
.....that which we are, WE ARE;
One equal temper of heroic hearts
by SarcasmJam on Jan 12, 2012 6:30 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Well then consider this my final response to you.
I truly have no respect for your opinions and the way you treat other people on this site. As illustrated by my posts above, I have tried to be nice to you, but I do not wish to waste any more effort on you.
I have tried to participate in constructive dialogue in an attempt to better understand the reality of the situation. You have been a hurdle in nearly every attempt and stopped productive discourse. If you find the best way to promote Penn State is to stop attempts at understanding and reasoning, then you undermine the ideals that all institutions of higher learning stand for. Your obstacles are nothing more than interjections of ignorance and dogmatism and are no longer even worth reading.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 11, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
Instant rec, SWHA.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, right.
Patronizing isn’t nice.
I’m more familiar with the facts of this case than the average person arguing against me – I have just come to different conclusions because, frankly, I left my hero-worship stage behind a few years ago. You guys are still there, and still engaged in nothing more than dogmatic rationalization in the service of an idol.
Gradulations!
Sorry it was so bumpy for you until you arrived at this.
The Internet hasn’t changed and the fundamental choice regarding participation in it remains the same:
Engage
or
Ignore.
jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.
by jtothep on Jan 12, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Agreed, but this is what makes trolls so successful.
My intention on these boards is to engage in conversation and discourse to express my opinions and logical reasoning and to learn from others. At no point do I believe I hold all the answers, so these boards become my tool to help achieve me gain some.
Ultimately though, you need to reach the distinction that conversations with certain individuals will not help you accomplish your goals and I have finally come to that point. I truly value differing opinions from my own as those are the times I stand to learn the most. Unfortunately, it appears as though all the time wasted on M1EK has not taught me anything and now I shall choose to ignore.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 12, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
God that is so true. Anytime M1EK says something, it obviously represents "THE REST OF THE WORLD'S" opinion.
I have done my best to completely ignore M1EK lately… but he makes it impossible.
He takes over thread after thread.
Dude, you’re ruining my experience here and I’m sure I’m not the only guy to think such a thing.
Is that your goal? Because thats what you are accomplishing. How this is good for a message board I have no idea. And obviously its not that good for your twitter follower count… so what are you gaining?
Bad ideas should be confronted yes. With tact, with facts.
YOU ARE NOT THE REST OF THE WORLD. YOU ARE JUST SOME GUY WHO THINKS HES THE SMARTEST GUY IN THE ROOM.
Believe that or not, thats a bad idea, especially when you come with none of your own facts.
Do what you want from now on, but please I wish there was an option in which I could ignore all of your posts. If one could be added… I would donate to this option.
"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."
Joe Paterno
by The Heel on Jan 14, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
(hint: check out his attempts to spread this gospel at Daily KOS).
My repost of three BSD fanposts to Daily Kos had these results
Over 600 SHARES
Over 100 LIKES to Facebook
Over 30 Tweets
I consider that very successful in terms of spreading the alternate theory to the LIES in the Grand Jury Presentment and Linda Kelly’s Press Release
The comment threads looked like most comment threads – full of ASSHATS who screamed “CREEPY PERVERT” OR ‘PEDOPHILE ENABLER’ like the resident ASSHAT here on BSD. But I think it was worth the abuse to get those diaries out to a far wider audience using SHARE and LIKE
What do you think?
One example
Grand Jury and Media Manufactured “Penn State Sex Scandal”
by aurabass
Share 566 Like 38
and a few typical ASSHAT comments
Had I seen (13+ / 0-)
what McQueary saw in that shower, they’d have been calling more than just the cops. They’d have needed an ambulance for Sandusky.
Delete this piece of apologist shit. Then go pound sand.
Fuck you.
by kestrel9000 on Tue Dec 27, 2011 at 06:02:51 PM EST
WHY? (2+ / 0-)
Why is this diary still up? Doesn’t anybody have the balls to pull it? DKos is NOT the place for defending child rapists, or their enablers. The fact that someone thought this was a good idea only goes to show just how fucked up the people defending this mess are. Yes, that means you aurabass. Delete this shit.
by draa on Wed Dec 28, 2011 at 01:44:37 AM EST
HR for being a child rape apologist (7+ / 0-)
Born & raised in PA, and know that to many in PA Joe Pa is the closest thing to God Almighty Herself; however there is no excuse!!!!
The votes on this poll were interesting
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 12, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Thank you for all that you are doing, both here and elsewhere.
The bottom line is that just because there are an overwhelming number of comments on one side, it does not indicate that everyone is of that same opinion. I’m sure there are numerous viewers of the site that have chosen not to comment due to the hostile environment and treatment of the commenters. With Daily KOS, as with ESPN, I do not believe it is fair to project the opinions found in the comment sections on to every viewer of the site. I’ve read articles on ESPN and disagree with the majority sentiment of the comments, that doesn’t mean I can’t find some of the information useful.
Typically what you find in comment sections of larger online communities is a polarization of comments, with the majority of people willing to comment (not necessarily the majority of users on the site) drowning out the less popular opinions. It’s therefore not surprising that on most comment sites, the overwhelming opinion of the comments is anti-Penn State. Most people on the pro-Paterno side are not nearly as polarized as the people on the anti-Paterno side. It’s far more likely to see someone willing to condemn the man to death than you are to find someone advocating for his deitization.
The true test that I apply to comment sections is this:
I do not validate my opinions based on the popular sentiment of a comment section. I do not wish to be on the same level as someone who’s calling for murder or rape of another individual. If I find myself alligned with these types of people, it is serious cause to reevaluate my beliefs and understanding of the situation.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 12, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Thanks SWHA - it's quite amusing to see M1EK
trying so hard to seek validation of his opinion by using KOS copies of my BSD fanposts that achieve such a large number of Shares and Likes.
I agree with your assessment of comment threads. Piling on trumps reason every time as well.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
I started out here
a few months ago with an awful lot of “if/then” type statements, attempting to determine which courses of action were more or less likely based on what seemed more or less plausible.
This was met with no more good faith counterarguments than what you see now.
I will consider making a FanPost, but surely even in your own world of dogmatic rationalization you must realize how it will be received by the crowd here.
I wish you would make a fanpost. Then I would know where not to go.
Look… We have completely lost the topic of this post.
And you are the reason why.
Thats fact.
So please, make your own fanposts and have at it, please stop taking over all of the other ones.
"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."
Joe Paterno
by The Heel on Jan 14, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree...
that people who don’t agree with you lack introspection and critical thinking. They simply don’t agree with you.
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 11, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Still he is very successful in getting what he wants
This great discussion about Jesse’s perspective has devolved into
ALL ABOUT M1EK
That seems to be a result of his overt attention seeking behavior based on who he is and his style of commenting – not on anything he has to say
If he wants to believe that Joe is guilty we can all accept that. It’s his opinion and he is welcome to it.
But his obvious desire is not to express his opinion. He wants to make as many threads as he can about his behavior.
Is that unfair?
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
by aurabass on Jan 11, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know..
what M1EK’s motives are. I think sometimes he acts the way he does because he knows it will get a rise out of people. I think sometimes he is unfairly picked on. Sometimes he is just a jerk.
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 11, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe SubLime can provide some psychological insight
if we take up a collection to pay for it. I got 32 cents not doing anything right now — who’s with me?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
I'm in for an equal amout
about what I think M1EK is worth?
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
I was not "conflating"
my contribution with his worth, merely offering what I had available.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
LOL - I realize that
but it’s my opinion of his worth
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
I'm in for 100 bucks.
"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."
Joe Paterno
by The Heel on Jan 14, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
ALL ABOUT M1EK.
If he gets on your nerves, don’t respond to his posts. Treat him like Westboro Baptist Church. When all somebody wants is attention and you don’t give it to them, they go away.
by Ab4PSU on Jan 11, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I will sign up for that from here on out
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
For those just tuning in and dont want to read all of this
the meme word/phrase of the week is “dogmatic rationalization”.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
Follow @134Lounge
Perhaps we should instead inquire after a rational dogmatization.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
Big fan..
of the Buddy Christ.
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 11, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Bigger fan of George Carlin for Pope.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, NerdCarolotta,
good to hear from you today.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Can't believe..
nobody put up Emma Watson picks. BSD disappointed me today.
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 11, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
It's the Divas' fault.
Apparently not a lesbian in the bunch . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's unfortunate.
Because girl-hugs are hot. (This is the point where my wife slaps me on the back of the head).
Don't worry, CVille;
the scar tissue back there builds up fairly quickly.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Here ya go...
He completed 17 of individuals 26 passes for 192 lanscaping your yard and two touchdowns - Chan Luu
Help me --
I’m f
a
l
l
i
n
g
into that abyss!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Emma derivations
Emma Watson, Emma Stone, Emma Frost, Emmy Rossum.
Who ya got?
jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.
Emma
tired of the M1EK temper tantrums.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Emmy Awesome.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 11, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
Because I've seen so much *more* of her

jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.
I don't know who this is...
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
This
Is Emmy Rossum. She plays a very likable, and revealing, character on the Showtime series Shameless.
jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.
Got it.
Thanks. I haven’t really seen any of the Showtime series other than the Tudors, which I think was ST, but I watched on Netflix.
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
Emily also starred in Phantom of the Opera
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Emma
believer – I couldn’t leave her if I tried
Joseph V. Paterno has left an impression on my soul that wil never, EVER go away.
by GoodOleDays on Jan 11, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This seems like the right thread to post this.
My Health Policy class for Masters students was meeting for the first time today. As I was sitting at the computer bringing my syllabus and lecture up, students were talking among themselves. All of a sudden someone said really loudly, “That dude was just Sanduskied!!” And then something about child molestation. I immediately looked up and said, “WHAT?!” The class got a little quieter. Finally I said, “You may not realize that I’m a Penn State graduate. I don’t want to hear the word Sandusky again in this class.” I was pissed!
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
Way to bring heat, Paige!
Words carry accountabilty — something our star attraction fails to realize.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions
Once again, your interpretation skills are lacking.
Nice try at sounding wounded, tho.
Somebody get this young man a bunny to cuddle — stat!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
Been busy the past few days...what's been going on gang?
(reading comments…reading comments…reading comments)
Ah same old stuff, new day.
Glad I didn’t miss anything important.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
Nice of you to check in, tho, Aries.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
I try
I am just not getting into any of these arguments anymore. All ridiculous persoanlly until the actual trials take place and actual evidence comes out. Opinions are nice, until actual facts can support them.
If not we are just repeating and rehashing and arguing over nothign really.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
It's train-wreck fascinating at times.
You can see what is about to happen, and you wonder if — just this once — the car will get off the tracks in time.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
Nice analogy
And yeah I know what you mean, I read a bunch of it, then just stop and sometimes look for funny comments or random conversations that go on in the middle. Those are always fun
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
That's why I try to inject smart-donkey (no swearing!) comments.
Some of this sounds life-and-death, and it isn’t . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 11, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
This is a good sounding position
except for the fact that the average position of the average commenter here on BSD has not stayed static – it’s like a ball rolling back down a hill unless somebody keeps kicking it. The natural state here appears to be willful rationalization whenever possible to protect the image of Paterno, and since most of the people who were pushing the ball the other direction have stopped bothering to comment, the ball’s moving more and more to crazytown.
What is your image...
of Paterno?
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 11, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Hard to reconcile
I am still trying to reconcile the bullshit response to the apartment thuggery a few years back, much less this latest stuff. But the saddest thing about him not taking the high road and resigning before being fired is that the stuff he did which I still believe to be completely untainted (academics, for instance) will be that much more difficult for the world to remember.
My formative fan years were ‘82 and on; especially ’86. That’s the image I want to keep of Paterno – the guy whose players got an education and acted right. The guy who would do right even when it was inconvenient for him (see Enis, Curtis and especially Jurevicius, Joe). That’s the hero I used to have.
Right now the image is really cloudy – and it didn’t get any clearer in the preliminary hearing, despite what some are rationalizing away – it actually confirmed he knew more than most people are willing to admit, and gives less cover for explanations which are exculpatory.
thank you...
I too have a hard time reconciling this. Don’t know that I can totally bury him. I understand the actions you wanted him to take, but I don’t know if I can hold him to that standard. This was a perfect storm of failure.
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 11, 2012 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
a close friend and former teammate
said to me when this was all breaking “I believe at a different time in his life, Joe would have handled this differently”
hard to disagree with him
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
Honest question.
And if you plead the fifth I’ll understand.
I believe that Paterno cut Sandusky loose after the 1998 incident despite the fact no charges came of it. Agree or disagree?
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I do not believe that. No.
I think Jerry and Joe were butting heads about things (coaching things), and during that time period the wheels were coming off of Jerry’s reality bus. I think all this alleged sexual deprivation stuff was accelerating and he saw retirement as an easier way to manifest his sick goals.
I’m completely speculating of course, but I picture it happening like this for some reason.
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
I don't believe Joe pushed him out because of any rumours
Because it just doesn’t fit with how things transpired.
a) If Joe was trying to protect the reputation of the program, himself, or even Jerry, just cutting him loose wasn’t going to accomplish that. It didn’t reduce the chances of one of his crimes, past or future, from coming to light and tarnishing the program. Joe would be smart enough to see that. If anything, letting him retire increased the odds of this blowing up.
b) If Joe was simply disgusted by the guy, but didn’t want to leak the really bad stuff, he wouldn’t have let him hang around. Joe could have prevented him from having his own office near the football facilities or from having his own key. Joe is not as powerful as the idiots think, but I think he did have power over the Lasch building.
As Hbeach08 says, it’s far more likely that they just weren’t getting along and I’d add that by that point, Joe was no doubt confident in Bradley’s ability to step up.
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 12, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Devil's advocate
because while I think it possible, I don’t think it most likely that Paterno knew about 1998:
IF Paterno knew about 1998, the retirement deal COULD have been “retire and we won’t make a big deal about what happened in 1998, as long as you promise to never do it again”. Lots of people back then would still have foolishly believed such a promise – a lot of the current knowledge that pedophiles are practically incurable wasn’t as common then.
certainly possible
I just don’t get the feel it went down like that.
I’m not sure if we’ll ever now how it went down…only a small number will I’m afraid.
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
Paterno has stated under oath
that he had no information of the 98 investigation.
Considering he is not being charged for purjury… this should be enough evidence to debunk any theory that he knew about it.
"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."
Joe Paterno
by The Heel on Jan 14, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I can agree with that....
but also, I have a hard time reconciling the fact that if Curley and Schultz simply advised the chief reporting to Schutlz to start an investigation, Paterno is a guy who put right before program. Now I just want to know what Paterno, Schultz and Curley said to each other about it from April 2002 until the GJ investigation.
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 12, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Good plan, just poor execution
My impression of Joe now is, as it ever was, a guy with the right moral compass. However, I think it’s fair to say that he didn’t follow that compass to it’s logical conclusion in this particular case.
But the evidence does not suggest nefarious motives. If he wanted to bury this, he could have. Telling Curley and Schultz as he did are totally inconsistent with that version. So that popular story is just a canard.
I think his actions were fine through the meeting with McQuery and talking to Schultz and Curley. Ultimately, it came down to McQuery. He had to talk to the cops, not Paterno. And there’s nothing Paterno could do for the kid(s) at that moment. McQuery had already blown that chance.
McQuery was the witness. Talking to Curley and Schultz first is fine in my book because they might like to know that their week was about to go into the shitter. It’s just common courtesy to tell a colleague when something that is going to make their job harder is about to happen.
But then McQuery should have talked to the real cops. Schultz should have told him to do that. Did Paterno think Schultz was the cops? Maybe, but once he saw that nothing was happening with it, why did he assume – as apparently he did – that everything was either OK or as fixed as it was ever going to be? Did he ask Schultz more about it? What did Schultz tell him in response? We don’t really know. He did ask McQuery if he was “ok” about it. McQuery should have told him no, he wasn’t ok with it, but he didn’t. Did Joe infer from that that Schultz had told McQuery that it was as handled as it ever could be? Perhaps. We don’t know yet.
Bear with me here, this is kind of a tangent. Let’s say that things went a bit more like they should have and Schultz brought in a real cop to take McQuery’s statement and then start an investigation. Based on what we’ve heard, it seems possible – maybe even likely – that the cops and the DA would decide they didn’t have enough. Then what? What would Curley and Paterno have done about Sandusky then?
Probably about the same as what they did do. They couldn’t kick him out of his office. It’s in his retirement contract and they couldn’t break that based on a crime with no charges. They’d just be stuck dealing with a guy they’re pretty sure is a child rapist but can’t prove. It’s like living in a neighborhood with mobsters. You know they’re murderers and they know you know, but nothing can be done.
Is that the situation Paterno imagined he was in? Did he believe that Schultz was the cops and did an investigation and just couldn’ t make it stick? If so, that would explain his inaction to a large extent.
My best guess is that Paterno wanted to do the right thing and tried, but he just didn’t think it all through as clearly as we, and he, would wish. He erred to far on the side of caution and didn’t ask the right people for advice. He should have asked a lawyer. He should have had McQuery meet with Spanier directly. He should have seen to it that, regardless of the outcome, McQuery’s eye-witness account was in an official police report somewhere.
Why he didn’t do these things is impossible to know. Partly, I imagine he just didn’t want to think about it and buried it in his own mind after he talked to Schultz and Curley.
As for McQuery? I don’t know. He clearly panicked at the time and didn’t handle it well. He admits that. Perhaps his embarassment at his inaction is why he didn’t give Paterno or the others the straight story. Or, as I suspect, he really didn’t see a rape, but – especially in light of the fact that Sandusky was now being investigated before a grand jury – McQuery concluded that it was almost certainly a rape (or at the very least and old dude in the shower with a boy, which is just not ok regardless) and he didn’t want to compound his earlier error by letting Sandusky off the hook again. So in his GJ and preliminary testimony he insisted it was sexual, even though he really didn’t see anything specifically sexual.
So they failed. But it was not the massive moral failure that it’s made out to be. The end result is the same, of course, and they’ll have to live with that.
If you’re a religious person, you can take comfort in knowing that both the innocent and guilty will have to someday answer to God for what they did or didn’t do.
If you’re not so inclined, you can just hope that all the people involved have a conscience. If they’re guilty, their conscience will destroy them from the inside out. If they’re innocent, they will know peace.
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 12, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I am actually not religious.
But I really enjoyed reading your comment. Thanks.
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
That's why I offered the other option.
I try to be inclusive.
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 12, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
I also am not religious.
But sometimes, those religious people say something right, even in spite of themselves. I’m reminded today of the movie Rudy, where Rudy asked a Priest a question about how it would all end. His answer was; “My son, I lived a lot of years, and in that time I’ve learned only two undeniable truths. One, there is a god, and two, I’m not him”.
The moral vagaries of my chosen profession (among other things) lead me to believe that I am, in point of fact, the least judgmental person on the planet Earth. I’m not certain whether or not there is a god, but I’m quite sure that if there is, I’m not him.
I tend to use the “were your actions reasonable at the time” standard, coupled with “have you learned anything from an honest mistake”. That’s basically how I roll.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 12, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I dig it
I tend to use the "were your actions reasonable at the time" standard, coupled with "have you learned anything from an honest mistake". That’s basically how I roll.
jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.
While were speculating about Mike McQ
My guess is that, right or more likely wrong, the AG coached him up on his testimony contributing to his contradictory statements. Second, on that Friday night in the locker room, he walks in, hears the noises and thinks someone is getting in on in the shower. Much to his shock he finds Sandusky and the kid and jumps to a very disturbing conclusion.
Now for the non-speculation, Big Red was abundantly clear that he considered Shultz to be the police. Obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, he was wrong. I’d be curious to know if he had any clue as to Shultz’ accurate job description at that time.
Striving for Success with Honor
by Frank O'Brien on Jan 12, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
Then why do you keep going?
You know what, don’t answer me, I don’t care what your rationalization is. I just want to see sports news, and have some random chats with people around the country that love PSU.
Don’t want to get back into any of this shit until the trals are all over and everyone has spoken on the record. even then I might not, since it doesn’t help me out persoanlly to argue about it, and don’t want to anymore, it is too tiring.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
Night, gang.
Have to get some beauty sleep so I can explain why I am 2.4% off-target on my year-to-date budget. The fact that I am favorable did not get me out of the meeting . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

If Penn State fans and alumni truly believe that chant that echoes throughout Beaver Stadium ("We are....") then it's time to show it.
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Jan 11, 2012 10:17 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
You bet!
If Penn State fans and alumni truly believe that chant that echoes throughout Beaver Stadium ("We are....") then it's time to show it.
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Jan 13, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
This is my life.
Except the cat crawls up on my lap, then I throw it at the wall, then it comes back in ten minutes.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
My recently acquired kittens are somehow really good at stepping exactly on the power button on my laptop.
Although I’m pretty responsible for them being on there at all. I routinely catch them watching my cursor, and every so often I’ll play along for a couple minutes.
I’m just glad my TV is high enough off the ground that they can’t get to it. They are extremely interested in catching the cursor every time I turn the Wii on.
I have been very impressed with BSD since I finally caved to my husband’s suggestions of checking out this site in November.
This thread in particular is extremely striking. It’s very unique. I can’t imagine there are very many places online where you can find such civility and thoughtfulness, even when discussing difficult and emotional topics. It’s truly an exchange of ideas.
All you BSDers, be proud. You have cultivated something good here and are representing Penn State well.
Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson
by belbijou on Jan 12, 2012 10:24 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
Just for the record
I hadn’t read far enough down this thread to realize how crazy it got in the middle…. oh well.
Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson
It wouldn't be BSD without the tangents.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 12, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Whoa
Paige workin the internet slang.
jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.
I've been hanging around EDSBS too much.
They’re a bad influence. LOL!
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
By in large you are correct here
and it’s absolutely easy to see the one disruptive force that turned this excellent and thoughtful discussion into a pissing match all about ONE SINGLE CONTRARIAN who’s goal was to make it all about him. We are complicit in allowing this to happen but without that single participant the civility and intelligence of the discussion would have remained impeccable.
Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......
Lighten Up Frances!
This is, after all, the INTERNETS! The freak show is part of the attraction.
After all, this is going to turn out to be a tempest in a teapot.
It’s our teapot, but, at the end of the day, it is not going to kill anyone.
My proud Penn State will come out of this tempest strong and true.
And nothing but long-term good will be the result of the process.
This, I believe.
For The Glory,
Joe From Boalsburg
Son of an Infidel.....Eater of Vegetables!
by joefromboalsburg on Jan 12, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You have to live in a tea pot (Happy Valley)...
… to appreciate the destruction of the tempest (the media). Us locals, for the most part, don’t give a Flying F*** what they say or report, mostly because we’ve heard it and digested it 6 months earlier.
A trip to any State College manicurist or hair dresser on any day of the week will get you more information than the Patriot News, the CDT, ESPN, CDT, the FBI or the KGB. For the record, I got my nails done two days ago, so, I’m up to speed.
These BSD posts, however, have all be an entertaining read and Jesse., along with many others over the past weeks and months, wrote a very good, informative one today.
by jessedotsmom on Jan 12, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking of manicurists...
Have you ever gotten an infection in a toe after a pedicure? My wife’s been limping around the past two days b/c of a cuticle removal gone bad, which prompted me to, regretfully, learn more about what exactly a cuticle is and how its removal is the fundamental action in a pedicure.
Now I’m all conflicted about something new I’ve learned that women go through for appearances.
jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.
As the Virginia Slims ads used to say:
“You’ve come a long way baby.”
They don’t even bind feet in China anymore, mostly.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
by SubLime on Jan 13, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I personally have not...
… but, I’ve been going to the same gal/close friend & fellow foodie for 30 years. She spends a lot of time training her employees, and clipping cuticles is a tricky business… they should be gently pushed back first, then clipped from the top without grazing, or, much worse, piercing the skin.
That being said, I have heard of it happening to others elsewhere, one of which is a tennis friend of mine and it’s a guy.
Hope you wife feels better soon… make her some Johnny Cakes!
by jessedotsmom on Jan 13, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Are you kidding,
pedicures are generally great! At least the spa pedicures are. It’s not just for looks! I had that happen on a finger during a manicure, but it didn’t get infected.
Tom Bradley for PSU Head Coach!
Follow @Paige2PSU
Going to to get your hair done...
… or for a manicure or pedicure in Happy Valley…
is priceless these days.
by jessedotsmom on Jan 13, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
This thread
has become a microcosm of BSD.
The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.
We (Still) Are...
Memorable manicure two decades ago . . . {tangent}
While living in Metro DC, expecting our first child, getting a manicure: I’m listening to a chatty technician. Later, much … I find her business card again and she is Lorena Bobitt (wife/ex John Wayne Bobitt) [UEwwuphf]! I was off manicures for a VERY long time. Wish we’d kept up with that card (might/could have sold $$).
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Jan 13, 2012 10:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

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