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Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

JoePa/Washington Post article is up...

Long time reader, first time poster.

In case you weren't convinced before, Surma is an epic jerk. Regardless of how you feel about Joe, Surma's method of termination is pathetic.

I think what most of us suspected, that Joe is simply of another time/era when it comes to this type of thing (supported by McQueary saying he didn't get specific). Also, the comments on the article are...almost funny. Haters are saying that the media is biased, that we should wait for trial, etc, etc. The irony certainly isn't lost.

I, for one, hope Coach gets better soon.

Here's the link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/joe-paternos-first-interview-since-the-penn-state-sandusky-scandal/2012/01/13/gIQA08e4yP_story.html

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Not reading comments, but I imagine wishing them death is equal to what they wish on their superior...

Joe Paterno.

"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."

-J.V.Pa.

by psume06 on Jan 14, 2012 5:02 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

It is my belief

that the haters who stubbornly ignore the facts and logic and, call it what it is: reality, have never really had to deal with anything remotely as serious, so they cannot comprehend the facts, the logic, and the history as it unfolded.

Their only recourse, is to blame, blame, blame, in order to quell the inevitable subconscious doubts about their own suspected inadequacies. Most vocal outrage comes from hollow sources, while the cooler heads pursue understanding, before rushing to judgment.

Only after one has “sufficient” knowledge should outrage be allowed to justly follow. A lot of people, including so called objective journalists obviously tend to skip that step.

by TonyLion on Jan 15, 2012 9:16 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Soulless eunuch?

#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)

by Orange and Black Forever on Jan 14, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Easy killer.

You are only allowed to refer to nebulous groups of people as “jackasses”, not specific individuals.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:46 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I made that comment...

in a knee-jerk reaction. I don’t think Santorum is a dick. I think he’s wrong on some issues, but I’m getting especially sensitive to the whole line of attack of “Why are you scum-sucking Republican Nazi’s so uncivil?” coming out of much of the left and media today. I should have thought before posting though. My apologies.

by jjl207 on Jan 14, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty sure it had to do with the "other" meaning of Santorum

and nothing political, since that’s against the rules here. We prefer to call each other cultists.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought we were Joe Paterno Apologists©

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010

by letsgopsu on Jan 14, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Card-carrying, dues-paying!!

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Two things.

1. That’s my old man you’re talking to.
2. He can defend himself, but it was kind of an inside joke.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd

for getting on BSD thin ice.

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I'll get away with that one.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously.

It is at that time you should know you are taking things to seriously.

by FB6244 on Jan 14, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

How about

“gutless asexual invertebrate”?

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Read the comments...

Probably shouldn’t have. Color me a masochist. What kills me is that these asshats are the same who were so quick to condemn Paterno, completely blew their facts, etc. Whatever, if you’re that stupid, I know where you didn’t go to school.

The video made me tear up.

by iamkatemcg on Jan 14, 2012 5:06 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

good thing about WaPo

they seem ok with deleting comments that have obvious factual inaccuracies presented as fact. See: Sally Jenkins’ original article in November, where one commenter was going crazy because his comments were deleted. A WaPo staffer commented on his comments, explaining why it was deleted.

Of course, the commenter claimed his facts were true. I think the employees of a well-respected newspaper might know a little bit better, however.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Jan 14, 2012 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly

he obviously had no idea what he was talking about, and thought he did. that’s a dangerous combo.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Jan 14, 2012 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting that a fair amount of the article is fluff.

Wonder how much Wick Sollers had to do with getting that interview done and the article written. Seems strange that the Washington Post would get that story.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably has a lot to do with the fact that the Times was shitty in November

and the Philly, Pittsburgh and Harrisburg papers are just shit all the time.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe.

My guess is that Paterno is really sick, wanted to go on the record just in case, and Sollers was able to call in a favor to get a favorable article written.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

With the caveat that I have no information,

All of this feels that way to me too.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Yahoo reported he was wearing a wig.

Chemo must be playing hell with him.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Washington Post reported that too.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Damn it.

I am getting all emotional again. I have this dreadful feeling Joe wanted this interview on record before he takes over for Vince Lombardi as HC of God’s football team.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

My mother died of lung cancer two years ago.

The chemo is almost worse than the disease.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it was more Jenkins herself than the Post

Jenkins actually did some reasonable articles on the subject when the story began in November. She argued that Joe shouldn’t be the main focus, and did an article on how hard it would be to believe the accusations.

I’m guessing they picked her because they had faith that she wouldn’t spin the interview poorly.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, this

I think I remember a comment from Joe long ago that he used to know and view favorably Sally’s father, Dan Jenkins. He was a longtime sportswriter for SI as well and, notably, from a similar era as Joe.

jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.

by jtothep on Jan 16, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Grew up reading Dan Jenkins

If you’ve never read one of his books, you are missing out. Grab a paperback version of Semi-Tough, Life It’s Ownself or Baja Oklahoma, get a bottle of single-malt, a bucket of ice, some chips and/or pretzels, throw some pillows on the couch, pull up the ottoman, and enjoy a nice three-hour trip. You’ll be better for it. Seriously.

*

by Smee on Jan 16, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Excellent endorsement!

Headed to Amazon immediately. Thanks!

jtothetweet
They don't even bind feet in China anymore, mostly.

by jtothep on Jan 16, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

About what I expected, but I really would have liked an answer to the question about what, if anything, he did to follow up AFTER.

Surely he must have had some opinion of seeing Sandusky around campus after he reported it up the chain to Curley and Schultz. The closest thing is his admission that he wasn’t the right person to handle it, and wanted people more able to handle it to lead the investigation: that is fine, but what about when you see nothing come of the investigation, don’t you at least try to figure out why?

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 5:44 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Nothing.

The article said he never followed up. Read closely. The explanation is he didn’t want to be seen as pushing for or against Sandusky.

by M1EK on Jan 14, 2012 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Which may...

or may not have been the wrong decision. Don’t know if it was an immoral decision.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 14, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i think it was a wrong decision

and possibly an immoral one. he had to have seen sandusky with kids on campus, around his football program – one would think he would have said something.

I love penn state, and love joepa and hope his legacy outlasts this scandal. However, let’s not fool ourselves. He was wrong in how he handled such a serious situation – and he comes off as very naive in the article in what he did to address the situation.

by RoBo_Cop on Jan 14, 2012 6:24 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

you are assuming that Joe came out of the 2002 situation believing Sandusky guilty.

It is just as reasonable for him to have thought the investigation went the other direction. How many investigations do you read about that say, “Investigation against person X has uncovered no wrongdoing”? Typically in an investigation no news is good news.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks, aurabass.

You’ve succinctly stated what I’ve been formulating nebulously in my mind for a while now.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 14, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

he always does

and am thankful for that. I gotta say I have become an outside “fan” of Tennessee since aurabass has brought his views, opinions, and writings here

by TJM5054 on Jan 15, 2012 1:37 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

1998 report

I’d really like to know when JoePa found out about the 1998 report. I know he said he didn’t know about it in 2002, but did it take until 2011 to know about 1998?

by BooyahPSU on Jan 15, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

that's another good point.

If he doesn’t find out about it until right around the time he’s summoned by the Grand Jury, then that’s one thing, but if he knew about it earlier, then spotting Sandusky hanging around should be sounding the klaxon.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 15, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

He comes off...

like an old man. I think he probably made the wrong the decision, but I don’t question his intentions. But for Curley and Schultz shitting the bed on this, the narrative would be how Paterno did the right thing.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 14, 2012 6:28 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Joe says

he had never heard of and didn’t comprehend the idea of one man raping another male. Could he have followed up more? Sure, but I really think the reality of what MM saw (or thought he saw) does not exist in Joe Paterno’s reality. I think that, more than anything, motivated Joe’s actions.

by kflintosh on Jan 14, 2012 9:41 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

That's ridiculous

The idea of a man molesting a kid is not anything new. This seemed like a weak excuse to me.

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Maybe not new to those of us who watch SVU all the time

(and, other similar shows/movies). But to someone Joe’s age? This is just a topic that wasn’t brought up when Joe was in his heyday. Period. Not talked about.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Jan 16, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Was it an excuse?

I didn’t read it as an excuse. He gave his reason (or “excuse”) and then kind of candidly said that even if he’d been told more, he probably wouldn’t have been able to wrap his mind around it. Don’t take “never heard of” literally, it’s more of a rhetorical device.

So believe what he said or not, it wasn’t an excuse.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 16, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

It’s not that he never heard of it, but its unlikely that he’d know much about other crimes like this or how it usually works in this day and age. The history of ancient Greece doesn’t enter into it.

We now know that JS’ alleged behavior fit the usual pattern/profile for these types of criminals, but Joe wouldn’t know what that “usual pattern/profile” was. Indeed, it’s clear that most people still think of pedophiles as weird guys in vans and trench coats so it would be hard for him to see JS as a molester.

So he couldn’t say for certain one way or the other, based on McQuery’s vague description, if it sounded like something horrible or something innocent just being misinterpreted. Of course, those of us who’ve read a bit on this would say it’s best to just err on the side of caution and assume the worst of a situation like that, but see to it that its investigated discretely. But I can see how he wouldn’t know how to interpret it because he had no context.

And he certainly wouldn’t know how to go about investigating it properly.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 16, 2012 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

"That's ridiculous"

The fact that you haven’t been banned yet is ridiculous. I find your opinions offensive.

"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."

Franco Harris:
"If I had to choose today between the moral integrity and character of Joe Paterno and the politicians and commentators criticizing him, I would pick Joe Paterno, hands down, no contest every time."

by showtime on Jan 16, 2012 7:46 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

He was running the Second Mile

It made sense for him to be around kids. This is only suspect now because of the knowledge of repeated incidents that we now have.

At the time, it would have only been one incident to Joe. Like it or not, false accusations happen.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 6:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

no, he didn't "have to have seen Sandusky with kids on campus"

After the 2002 incident Sandusky was told not to bring kids on campus.

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010

by letsgopsu on Jan 14, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

and the charity was told too

the second mile scandal needs more investigating.

by FB6244 on Jan 14, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Page views

It’s a sad sad world. But we can make a small difference.

by FB6244 on Jan 14, 2012 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

^ This.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvPkLG-tvzM&feature=fvst

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

AGREED

I get the feeling like there are facts hiding at the Second Mile that need to be uncovered. With that said, the organization also should not be painted with a broad brush – there were many, many good people who are totally innocent in this involved with that charity. It was huge, and the vast majority of volunteers and employees just wanted to help underprivileged kids.

The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.

We (Still) Are...

by PSU_Buch on Jan 14, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

can you imagine what that feels like?

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

and the vast majority of the kids who DID benefit

and the ones who won’t benefit because of this

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010

by letsgopsu on Jan 14, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

and one's who could be helped.

in the future. I hope some other charity steps into their place.

by FB6244 on Jan 14, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Another good point

Yet more victims of Sandusky’s apparent depravity. This whole affair is sickening on countless levels.

Great thread tonight, folks. Enjoyed reading through it, but just didn’t have the mental energy to contribute much. Go Pats… I guess.

The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.

We (Still) Are...

by PSU_Buch on Jan 14, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Glad to know you are

here in spirit, Buch!

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

And the scrutiny that other groups will endure.

There are always ripples upon ripples. Charity 1-A gets a bad rap for something, and 1-B through 1-Z (who work in the same field) come under the same microscope. “How do we KNOW you are not embezzling/misusing funds/allowing children to be hurt?”

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

dangit

someone please teach me the sarcasm font?

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I was reading over on the Flyers SBN blog

and they use the sarcasm font too. I wonder if this is just an obvious use for the coding font on SBN, or if it is spreading (since obviously there is some crossover between the fanbases)

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

As Christian Bale would say,

Oh, good for you!

Thanks very much.

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Cory Giger

deserves a ‘pullet surprise’, but that would be cruel to the bird.

Alea iacta est...

by PSUGuru on Jan 14, 2012 11:12 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

BINGO - the Second Mile was JS hunting ground

the place where the kids and their families would have complained
and the one place the AG said she was not investigating

The Second Mile Exec Director Jack Raykovitz was told about the incident and the ban in 2002. Raykovitz, never contacted police. Raykovitz was assured by prosecutors that The Second Mile was not a target of investigation.

How weird is that?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

probably because they were smart and got their bribes lined up properly

PSU had too much hubris for that.

"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."

Franco Harris:
"If I had to choose today between the moral integrity and character of Joe Paterno and the politicians and commentators criticizing him, I would pick Joe Paterno, hands down, no contest every time."

by showtime on Jan 15, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This is such a simple statement

but speaks truths that a lot of people haven’t been willing to look into. You can do something “right” but for immoral reasons (see: donating openly to charity for headlines and personal reputation “what a great philanthropist”) or you can do something wrong without being immoral. It’s not always cut and dry.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 16, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Inappropriate!

"Every player we have, someone-maybe a parent, a grandparent, someone-poured their soul into that young man. They are handing that young man off to us. They are giving us their treasure, and it's our job to make sure we give them back that young man intact and ready to face the world."

-J.V.Pa.

by psume06 on Jan 14, 2012 5:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I read that as he didn't immediately get involved because he didn't want to be seen as pushing for or against Sandusky.

It says nothing about if he ever followed up after sufficient time for an investigation to have occurred.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Read between the lines.

This was the most favorable media person to Paterno, and this was the relevant section:

Paterno’s portrait of himself is of an old-world man profoundly confused by what McQueary told him, and who was hesitant to make follow-up calls because he did not want to be seen as trying to exert any influence for or against Sandusky. "I didn’t know which way to go," he said. "And rather than get in there and make a mistake . . ."

He reiterated that McQueary was unclear with him about the nature of what he saw — and added that even if McQueary had been more graphic, he’s not sure he would have comprehended it.

"You know, he didn’t want to get specific," Paterno said. "And to be frank with you I don’t know that it would have done any good, because I never heard of, of, rape and a man. So I just did what I thought was best. I talked to people that I thought would be, if there was a problem, that would be following up on it."

In other words, no, he didn’t follow up. He says he would have expected Curley and Schultz to follow up on it, so he didn’t.

by M1EK on Jan 14, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

OR read between these lines
Paterno was frustrated that Sandusky spent so much time working on his youth foundation, The Second Mile, that he was not available to help in recruiting and other coaching duties.

"He came to see me and we talked a little about his career," Paterno said. "I said, you know, Jerry, you want to be head coach, you can’t do as much as you’re doing with the other operation. I said this job takes so much detail, and for you to think you can go off and get involved in fundraising and a lot of things like that. . . . I said you can’t do both, that’s basically what I told him."

and you get the way Joe viewed Jerry

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This is what I thought also, and what I have been saying for 2 months

People point to the fact that nothing came from this as proof of a coverup. To Joe, at the time, I would assume he took it to mean that Schultz had done his job and found that no crime had occurred.

I don’t really understand why it is a bad thing to assume other people actually did their jobs.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 6:15 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

people get a bit clouded/prejudiced with the whole child abuse aspect

and think that an investigation should be much more thoroughly carried out. Maybe they are right, but there is a limit to how thorough one should be. The question is, for the average person in JoePa’s situation (without holding him to a higher standard), did he do enough?

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 6:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think this is the key

People are looking at this with the knowledge of repeated accusations of sexual assault. If Joe were aware of that, then I can see the outrage. But if this is an isolated incident, things change.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

god I'm remembering a time where twice in a game I got beat by someone getting 4 of a kind on the river

to beat my flush on the flop that I couldn’t chase off with betting. Some people will make stupid decisions to their benefit, and sometimes people will make smart decisions to their detriment.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

well, I think it was reported that he went home soon after

so not likely TOO bad.

Still, the double whammy of broken pelvis immobilizing him, and the cancer….ugh

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

78, I'm 53

and went through the same thing with my Dad. I was in Special Forces, doing some crazy things, and he still didn’t talk about his WW II experiences.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm 86 and this is 99.

Where’s agent 13?

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Getting coffee.

It’s still a sexist world . . .

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I told you it was 3am

And we don’t talk about those things

In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them

by PSUMarine78 on Jan 14, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

umm this is 13

sheesh.. you think I left?

All of our comments are irrelevant - LetsGoPSU

by jaytay13 on Jan 14, 2012 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Just hope you remembered

this time that I like my coffee black.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Well you SF guys are admittedly a little nuts

but I say that with the greatest admiration

In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them

by PSUMarine78 on Jan 14, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Gee, thanks!

(I think . . . ) Coming from a Marine pilot, I blushingly accept that.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Of the things this draws to mind

are reflections on great people, and how they knew what to do at a time it was anything but obvious. Most people won’t ever get it because they’ve never been remotely responsible for “everything the organization does or fails to do”. Which no one truely can pull off so it’s like waiting for the axe of fate to fall. The fact Paterno ran it as clean as he did for as long as he did deserves no small acknowledgment. The lesson is in how he did it for so long.

In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them

by PSUMarine78 on Jan 14, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

And he (JoePa) deserves major props

for convincing so many of us (other coaches, staff, alumni, players, et al.) that his Grand Experiment was worth embracing. Even when there was discontent with the football program and Joe himself, the “Success with Honor/Grand Experiment” concepts (primarily authored by Joseph V. Paterno) were rarely called into question. The “win at all costs” that appears to have pervaded other schools never really made an impact in Happy Valley.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Hey guys

I know it’s been said on here many times before (never enough, imo), but not by me: Thanks very much for your service to our country. I really appreciate it.

The depth of both my sadness and anger is unfathomable.

We (Still) Are...

by PSU_Buch on Jan 14, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Thanks Buch

I for one am always embarassed when someone says that, but the sentiment is truly appreciated. It’s the younguns who need to hear it now, I pretty much stand in awe of what they did and keep doing.

In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them

by PSUMarine78 on Jan 14, 2012 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Funny, that is my main reaction, too, 78.

It was far and away the most interesting time of my life, and I got PAID, too. I sometimes feel like I took advantage of the American taxpayer . . .

Does that make me a politician? Oh, no!!

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Speaking for myself, Buch,

I had a great time in the military. Most importantly, met the lady who is now my wife while I was in the Army.

You are welcome!

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't either.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

How was it a mistake JuggerNitt

Joe was not told of a crime
and even if MM had told him everything
“I heard 3 slaps and caught two 1 or 2 second glances of JS back”
“Saw no pain or distress”
“I left the boy with Sandusky and didn’t ask him if he needed help”
“I didn’t even go back to check on him”
“I saw little if any movement, no hands, no genitals”

Even with all of that there was no crime observed.
and Joe would still have hooked him up with people who should be involved.
Joe is the football coach and he is not in charge of ex employees behavior on PSU property.
Joe did the right thing and following up was not his moral responsibility because there was nothing seen by MM to follow up on.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

it was a mistake because in the end the right thing did not happen.

Even if the ultimate mistake was that Gary Schultz and Tim Curley didn’t properly investigate, it is then, retroactively, a mistake for Joe to have gone to them (if that makes any sense). Maybe mistake isn’t the best word to use, but it was ultimately the wrong decision.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't see a mistake by Curley or Schultz either

What MM reported was not credible or criminal

The mistake was McQueary’s. He should have confirmed his suspicions
He should have asked the boy if he needed help and gotten his name from Sandusky right then.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

It isn't necessarily their authority to decide that, though.

They were obligated to pass the information along to those who were. Even if we’re going to assume that McQueary and JoePa thought of Schultz as the head of campus police, and even assuming that he actually is in terms of administrative power, he is still not a detective with investigative powers. Sure, an actual investigation may not have turned up anything worthwhile anyway, but they are still obligated, by law, to pass that information along.

McQueary likely also erred, but that doesn’t absolve future mistakes by other people.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty much this

Whether the claim is credible or not, McQueary described it as sexual. Even without proof, this HAS to be passed on to the cops. If they decided it’s BS and drop the case, then so be it. But that is the job for a sworn law enforcement officer, not a university administrator,

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

naive maybe

not morally corrupt

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010

by letsgopsu on Jan 14, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

when I read between the lines

I got the same thing you did. But upon re-reading the quote in your post, I realized that might not be so. He was “hesitant”. This allows the possibility that he followed up at some point.
Then I re-read the whole article. Very early in the article: “Almost as difficult for Paterno to answer is the question of why, after receiving a report in 2002 that Sandusky had abused a boy in the shower of Penn State’s Lasch Football Building, and forwarding it to his superiors, he didn’t follow up more aggressively.” This quote allows for potential follow-up, which, for any type of follow-up, could have been more “aggressive”.
Recall, his lawyer was present for the entire interview. Also, the AG investigation is continuing, with more interviews of football staff. Most relevant, Curley and Schultz have not gone to trial yet, and it is one or both that joe, if he followed up at, would have spoken to. If joe did follow up, I do believe it would be off limits & not reported in this article, with respect to current charges against Curley and Schultz.
That said, I’ll wait for the trial.

by skins4ever' on Jan 14, 2012 6:46 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions   1 recs

The appearance of "aggressively"

makes it obvious that there was follow up on some level. Otherwise, why is it there. Jenkins is not sloppy like that, and this was obviously vetted by Joe’s attorney.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

good point about the "off limits" due to the trial

It could be bad for Joe if he starts to discuss material important for either party during the trial

by psualum9931 on Jan 14, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you know that Merle Haggard is a big Toronto Maple Leafs fan?

I read it over on Pension Plan Puppets — he just loved Dave Keon.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

"In other words, no, he didn’t follow up. He says he would have expected Curley and Schultz to follow up on it, so he didn’t."

Boy this must be a great day for you, asshole.

"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."

Franco Harris:
"If I had to choose today between the moral integrity and character of Joe Paterno and the politicians and commentators criticizing him, I would pick Joe Paterno, hands down, no contest every time."

by showtime on Jan 15, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Follow-up Occurred

Grand Jury Testimony by Tim Curley:

Tim Curley: … Then, to the best of my recollection, I circled back around and informed the president of my actions and then Coach Paterno, Mr. McQueary. I guess that’s the people.

Perjury Pre-Trial Testimony by McQueary

BEEMER: So, in other words, you never spoke with them again about this — about Jerry Sandusky and what you had seen?
MCQUEARY: No. Let me correct that. When you say them, Coach Paterno did ask me in recent months after that, two or three months, a couple of times if I was okay.
BEEMER: Asking about your general well-being?
MCQUEARY: Yes, in relation to what I had saw and if I was handling it okay.

Maybe not as rock-solid as we would like, but bear in mind that it was not as relevant to the cases at hand, therefore the questioning was not as pointed.

by cs93 on Jan 15, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Page 4

Paterno’s portrait of himself is of an old-world man profoundly confused by what McQueary told him, and who was hesitant to make follow-up calls because he did not want to be seen as trying to exert any influence for or against Sandusky. "I didn’t know which way to go," he said. "And rather than get in there and make a mistake . . ."

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Those things are not the same.

Following up on the end result is not the same as pressing the issue for an investigation.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I knew you would be in this thread.

"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."

by MainLion on Jan 14, 2012 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I dub thee Nostradomus

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

This isn't true though.

While he may never have followed up with Curley or Shultz, he DID follow up with McQuery. McQuery had the opportunity to scream holy hell to Joe that ‘enough’ wasn’t being done, and he didn’t take it. And I believe (someone correct me if I’m wrong) that McQuery’s father and/or the other doctor family friend guy followed up with Schultz, as they were all ‘friendly.’ So if Joe asked McQuery how he was doing with ‘it’ and McQuery doesn’t say anything to raise Joe’s suspicion at that point – then I cannot fathom how Joe is at fault.

by PSUEnrg02 on Jan 15, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly. My biggest question is, what was he told.

Even if he didn’t really follow up, I’m assuming that Schultz would have told him something about the outcome. Most people see nothing being done as proof of a coverup. I think if it turns out Schultz told him something like “we looked into it and it didn’t seem to be serious” or shrugged it off in some other way, it might help give him more backing to the people who think he should have done more.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

You go ask McQueary again, period.

by M1EK on Jan 14, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd like to know what was said there as well.

There were some reports from Joe’s camp early on that he talked with McQueary a few times to see if he was ok with the situation. I’d really like to hear McQueary’s responses were.

The fact that he (McQueary) didn’t feel the need to press the issue further, leads me to believe he wouldn’t have told Joe anything that would have caused him (Joe) to press the issue himself.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

McQueary testified at the prelim for Schultz and Curley that Joe followed up with him

and asked how he was handling. That is based on coverage I read, but I don’t know if McQueary testified to anything more specific.

by psualum9931 on Jan 14, 2012 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand

you think Paterno failed a moral obligation, but I am curious, what is the source of your moral code?

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 14, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

The one that says

you protect children from a predator – even if it means you have to make people you work with pissed off.

by M1EK on Jan 14, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm a Catholic

but I don’t think that’s the sole source of my moral code, since I was pretty fucking disgusted with their own scandal and the shameful behavior from apologists who tried to make it all about homosexuality instead about bad actors in the church hierarchy.

by M1EK on Jan 14, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

And now that...

we have more information as to his reasoning for not following up, I think Paterno made the wrong decision not to pursue it further. I don’t think it was immoral. You may disagree, which is reasonable.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 14, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I agree with you.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Concur with your agreement.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll place my imprimatur on all this concurrence.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you think that the error in judgment is sufficient to terminate him?

by 1LisHell on Jan 14, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he..

should have been put on administrative leave.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 14, 2012 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

bingo

“you did everything you were supposed to do. In the end it wasn’t enough because other people with more responsibility screwed up, so you are relieved of your duties”

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree with admin leave until things calm down. I would have fired everyone involved as soon as I found out what’s going on.

At some point, the argument that “I followed procedure” stops being an acceptable excuse.

Steve Jobs used to tell a story to new Apple executives:

Jobs tells the VP that if the garbage in his office is not being emptied regularly for some reason, he would ask the janitor what the problem is. The janitor could reasonably respond by saying, “Well, the lock on the door was changed, and I couldn’t get a key.”

An irritation for Jobs, for an understandable excuse for why the janitor couldn’t do his job. As a janitor, he’s allowed to have excuses.

“When you’re the janitor, reasons matter,” Jobs tells newly minted VPs, according to Lashinsky.

“Somewhere between the janitor and the CEO, reasons stop mattering,” says Jobs, adding, that Rubicon is “crossed when you become a VP.”

I think the same is true when you become a head football coach. If Paterno had followed up and been lied to, I think it’d be a different story. But the argument that “I followed procedures” doesn’t make it OK when there’s this level of failure, especially when it’s a guy who you hired and worked closely with for 30 years.

by 1LisHell on Jan 14, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

My boss, who is an executive, spends a lot of time

worrying if our parking garages are adequately cleaned. In the meantime, we have multi-million deficits and those same garages need tens of millions of dollars in repairs.

Jobs was not the fount of all managerial wisdom. Sorry to burst your hero-bubble.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Steve Jobs

Was a marketer (ie: a storyteller). There is a reason Apple computers NEVER in their existence since the dawn of time have even commanded a double-digit (10%) share of the personal computer market. They just don’t work well for the 90% of us who use them for actual work. If you want extremely expensive toys, Jobs was your man. But as far as management — the man was lost.

*

by Smee on Jan 14, 2012 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

^ This.

He had a cult status that accorded him respect for/in areas in which he really had no expertise.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree...

the analogy is faulty. Paterno did fail to meet his job description. Now, the coverage of the matter precluded him from leading the football program, thus he should have been placed on leave.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 14, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I appreciate what you're saying

but the analogy falls apart when you’re plunged into circumstances outside your realm of responsibility. If Joe had been responsible for the hiring and firing of Schultz, Curley and Spanier then I would say, yes – the buck stops at Joe. In this case it’s just the opposite. The buck should have stopped at Spanier/Schultz.

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Joe was certainly closer to the VP than the janitor, but Spanier was the President and there were a couple of layers between him and Joe.

Also, while Apple makes many beautiful products, Jobs was widely acknowledged as a terrible manager.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

The talent almost always is.

A terrible manager that is.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

It's mostly a truism

that great entrepeneurs make lousy business people. That can be extended to genius-level inventors being not great “people” kinds of managers.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Where did THAT

come from, letsgo?

Obviously your skills as either a great entrepeneur or genius-level inventor have gone undetected by this old guy.

I hear you make a mean cupcake, though.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, NC.

Didn’t mean to credit the wrong diva.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

No

But I the longer I’ve thought on this, the more I think Joe couldn’t coach in the environment that was being laid out with the giant assumptions the media was making about him.

I don’t think you should be fired for doing what you were supposed to do.

Joe shouldn’t have coached, but more because it was unsafe for him and there were far too many distractions, not because of a decision he made that, even thought it was with all good intentions, turned out to be the wrong one.

I am Sandy's bitch.

Penn State Forever

by Rogue Nine on Jan 14, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoa there

You’re bringing competence and reason into this decision.

Seriously, that would’ve made a LOT more sense and would’ve demonstrated balance. Totally agree with you.

by PSUPing on Jan 15, 2012 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

So would...

his responsibility been altered if it was woman in the shower and McQueary thought JS was raping her?

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 14, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Somewhat

I see some difference between a child and an adult victim. McQueary should still have stopped it in both cases.

by M1EK on Jan 14, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

interesting...

I would hold him to the same standard.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 14, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

So would I.

It’s necessary to do so in order to maintain the legitimacy of our institutions — be they formal structures or vague ideological commitments to something called the “American Way.”

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

That fallacy that there is a diff

between a child and an adult victim is why the pornography industry — an activity that degrades (mostly) women and relegates them to that of a disposable commodity — exists and flourishes.

And please don’t say the participants in pornography are 100% volunteers . . .

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, some are.

The relevance of my comments relates to the fact that there is an individual on this thread who has consistently held Joe to a very high standard of conduct in this JS situation, but who is now on record as stating there is a difference between child and adult rape. Many posters — many of whom are Joe supporters or wait-and-see folks — don’t see that difference. I find the dichotomy interesting.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:04 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I meant my comment isn't relevant to the discussion

but still wanted to point out the admirable stars (stars! no less, not just mere actors) who perform their job completely willingly.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, Nitt, I was focused

on what I see is a moral/ethical contradiction espoused by everyone’s favorite “Devil’s advocate”.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

There is a difference between child and adult rape.

There is a difference between date rape, and raping a stranger in an alley. Many things are analogous, very few things are the same. Two months ago I wouldn’t have bothered with this, but with the “They’re all just as guilty” hysteria surrounding this, I think it’s important to realize that things are different. And when I say “Paterno has culpability” it’s not the same thing and “he’s the same as Sandusky”.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Expound, please, jesse.

How do you see the differences?

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Between what?

“child” rape and “adult” rape? How am I supposed to quantify that? Is the child 12, or 17? Was the adult the drunk girlfriend of the perpetrator or a coma patient?

There are an infinite set of possibilities, how can there not be differences?

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

You seem to accept there is a difference;

on what grounds do you base that? Nitt just provided a distinction that seems plausible, but I would submit that in all cases rape is an attempt to exert dominant and degrading control over another person. That that other person is 2, 12, 22 or 102 (yes, old people get raped) is immaterial, imo.

Not trying to challenge any of you; just trying to understand a distinction that I personally do not see.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Then you're missing the difference.
attempt to exert dominant and degrading control over another person

Is this what you think Jerry Sandusky was doing? In his mind, he loved those children. It’s demented, but to a guy with the pathology of Sandusky, he is expressing love in the same way as person would with their Wife.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know if all are cases about dominance/control.

I look back to the Michael Jackson case(s) and see some similarities to the Sandusky case where you have an adult who, in some aspects, never “grew up” and feel they have more of a connection to children, and sometimes that gets twisted into something sexual.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks, Jesse. and Nitt.

I’m beginning to see the distinction, but it is difficult. To me, if my wife says, “Not tonight, honey.” I am a shit for forcing her, even though up until recently I had the legal “right” to do so. How could someone inflict sexual pain on a child (I’m presuming it would be painful), possibly hear that child protest, and justify it by saying, “This hurts me more than it hurts you.” or some other rationalization.

Trying to get my head around this — thanks for your patient explanations.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Here, I'll freak you out...

What if you and your Wife are drinking, and she gets a bit bombed and is technically too drunk to consent. Then, a bit blown up, she lets you do that thing you’ve always wanted to do, but she doesn’t like. She wakes up the next morning, doesn’t remember, you tell her, she’s pissed.

Did you rape her?

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Can't answer the q

because the context is faulty. We don’t drink (alcohol) so I can’t conceptualize your scenario beyond saying, "Your phrasing says "she lets (me) do . . . ". In my defense with her, I would probably say, “But, darling, you know you always wanted me to rub your feet!!”

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

That's kind of cheating.

But the answer is, technically, “you” raped her. The point being, there are degrees and distinctions to everything.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

There is a saying that goes,

“If you ain’t cheating, you aren’t trying hard enough.” but I do not espouse that philosophy.

Thanks for the education, guys.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

depends on where you fall on the question of "consent."

being in a committed and generally mutually agreeable relationship implies a level of “consent” for touching. if the drinking was expected to lead to sex, then more “consent” can be attributed to the situation.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Frankly, in my view, what we really don’t like is violent brutal bloody raping against people that really really really don’t want to have sex.

by WarBuck46410 on Jan 14, 2012 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

My sexual assault classes at PSU disagree

As members of a fraternity, we were required to go to lectures/classes on sexual assaults (as well as hazing, drinking etc) every semester. According to them, there is no implied consent in a relationship.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

So of those three things:

going to classes on assaults,
or hazing,
or drinking

Which did you enjoy the most? :-)

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I plead the fifth.

Let’s just say college was fun. The fact that I earned a good degree is an added bonus.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 8:03 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

well, okay... i misspoke. I was saying a "level" of touching is impliedly consented to in a relationship.

If a husband is dancing with his wife and gropes her boob on the dancefloor = not rape/inmpermissible touching.

some stranger does it = impermissible touching

by WarBuck46410 on Jan 14, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I understood what you were getting at.

I think most people would agree that there is a level of consent between them. But that’s strictly between those people. Legally speaking, this implied consent does not exist.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I went to those as well when I was pledging

One of our instructors: Joe Amendola

by danpsu97 on Jan 14, 2012 10:08 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Now that you say that

I think he did one of ours as well. I guess now I support child abuse too?

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

mutually agreeable relationship implies a level of "consent" for touching

Yeah, if your Dan Savage. The law is not nearly as evolved.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Look

If Dan Savage is the arbiter of sexual disputes in your relationship you’re doing well.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Well..

You’re stealing his ideas. Sorry.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I teasing.

Sorry.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

And thanks.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

It doesn't matter.

It could be kissing her ear.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

One view says all sex without consent = rape. By this view, if the boy with Sandusky “consented” (e.g., just thought it was good fun in the shower), then no rape.

However, of course, the law, ethics, religion and morality assign different capacities for being ABLE to consent. Thus, the law in some states say a fully developed 15 year woman cannot “consent.” So any form of sex with her is “rape.” Likewise, with Sandusky’s boy. No matter how much “fun” the kid was having, no matter how much Sandusky said it was a form of “love,” any form of sex with the boy is “rape.”

Even where consent is “given,” some ethicists argue that various forms of coercion degrade/invalidate the “consent.” Economic need is a form of “coercion” and, thus, every prostitute and porn star is being “raped.” Some further argue that a sufficiently large power differential between the persons involved is a form of coercion. So, Clinton ’raped" Lewinsky.

Additionally, “rape” is often combined with a physical battery, a separate moral and legal issue. Thus, a forceful penetration along with a beating is a “rape” and a felonious battery.

Additionally, every “rape” has a range of length and behavior. One unpermissible “boob grope” on a dance floor vs. one horrific brutal penetration vs. multiple penetrations by multiple rapers on a bar-room pool table.

Each and every one of the foregoing “rapes” is different. We are right to make moral, ethical and legal distinctions among them.

by WarBuck46410 on Jan 14, 2012 7:50 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Thank you also, WB.

I have to say, if I am ever called for jury duty on a case that involves a(n alleged) rape, they would not seat me. I try to be objective and remember the “innocent until proven guilty” in most cases, but that is one that truly bothers me.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

there is a difference between child and adult rape

but I don’t know if one can reasonably say one is worse than the other. I’m probably wrong, but my view is that adult rape is more violent/dominance driven while child rape is usually a manipulative/mental disorder type of thing that is sorta “passed down” (i.e. Sandusky may have been abused himself)

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Our legal system has to do this all the time

hence the difference between different degrees of murder and manslaughter.

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Are there degrees of rape?

(Defining “rape” as involuntary penetration; I know there are charges such as sexual assault, which I assume means unwanted touching or some such.)

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not funny,

but a lot of folks made fun of whats-her-face Whoopi Goldberg when she started yapping about someone only committing rape versus RAPE-rape on the View last year.

Seriously, there are real lawyers on here that can answer that question better than this engineer.

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

93, am getting good feedback

and education from some others, and appreciate your input as well. Some of this is “my” generation as well, since my Dad’s/Joe’s generation passed along some of their mores to me: Never hit a woman, never force a woman to have sex, etc., etc., etc. Not saying you guys’ viewpoints are different, but sex is much more casual and open than it was in my day — even though I grew up in the “peace and love” 60’s and 70’s. “Friends with benefits”, for example, is totally alien to me, because of the way I was raised about sex (e.g., as being part of a monogamous relationship).

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Being an engineer

involuntarily sets you back a generation or so anyway. Friends with benefits? Ha. Dare to dream!

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

93, I'm an American Studies major

who was exposed to a heavy dose of “liberal” literature that presumably could have colored my thinking/viewpoints.

Still, wound up in finance, which is pretty black-and-white black-and-red, so I guess I am not geared towards subtleties.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm 32

and married my high school girlfriend. Friends with benefits is foreign to me, as well. Maybe being an engineer has something to do with it as well.

by PSUEnrg02 on Jan 15, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think he assumed McQueary was wrong...

He’s said, about everything, from the beginning (and again in the video when asked about Sandusky), “Let the facts play out. Let the legal system run its course.” (paraphrasing)

Which, indeed, is what we should all be doing. We are so far (unfortunately) from this thing being finished. And for many, even at the end of the trials, this will never be ‘over’.

Sorry if I misunderstood your last comment ppfcpp.

by iamkatemcg on Jan 14, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, my point was more along the lines that

Joe could have seen inaction from towards as a sign that no crime had occurred. It’s quite possible that Joe just thought McQueary hadn’t seen what he thought he saw (maybe he bought Schultz horseplay lines).

M1KE seems to be of the opinion that Joe needed to go further and contact outside police departments, confront Sandusky etc, without giving thought to the possibility that a crime hadn’t been committed.

Basically, my point is that assuming there has been a coverup is a dangerous game. I’m curious if M1KE would expect people to act the same if it were him being accused.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe was not told of a crime

and even if MM had gone into detail he would have 3 slapping sounds and a couple of 2 second glances of a back.
That is not a crime either.

We all need to realize that MM did not see a crime
He did not see pain or distress
and he did not convey that he had seen anything much in his 2 second glances
and he left the boy with JS and didn’t even bother to go back and check on him or offer to help him if he needed help.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

well, wether he witnessed a crime or not is up for debate

An adult exposing his privates to a minor can be a crime.

Did McQueary witness rape based on what he heard and saw, it’s a possibility but not a likely one.

by psualum9931 on Jan 14, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

As a kid

did you spend time alone at night in a deserted locker room naked with an old man who wasn’t related to you?

by M1EK on Jan 14, 2012 6:42 PM EST via Android app up reply actions   2 recs

I actually don't recall if I did or not.

Probably not, but I was also never athletically gifted enough to have a 1 on 1 trainer. If Sandusky and the kid were legitimately working out in the building, and both needed to shower, assuming no actual inappropriate behavior I don’t necessarily see it as a wrong thing to shower together.

I know when I was a camp counselor I was the lone adult in a room full of naked 8-10 year olds who were changing to go swimming. Is it somehow better that there were a dozen naked boys instead of just one?

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Then again this wasn't "an old man"

This was Jerry Sandusky – Second Mile Charity founder and foster father of six as far as Paterno, Curley and Schultz were concerned

and this icon of the community known for his good works is up against a grad assistant with a story about 3 slaps and 2 second glances who left a boy there after observing no pain.

So they aren’t making decisions based on “an old man” and a boy – they are making decisions based on a foster father and charity founder not knowing if the boy was a foster grandchild or a foster child staying with the Sandusky’s who happened to come with Jerry to an after dinner workout and was playing around in the showers.

It’s easy to dismiss this as “an old man” showering with a boy – but not as a foster parent or charity founder.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually don't recall if I did or not.

Probably not, but I was also never athletically gifted enough to have a 1 on 1 trainer. If Sandusky and the kid were legitimately working out in the building, and both needed to shower, assuming no actual inappropriate behavior I don’t necessarily see it as a wrong thing to shower together.

I know when I was a camp counselor I was the lone adult in a room full of naked 8-10 year olds who were changing to go swimming. Is it somehow better that there were a dozen naked boys instead of just one?

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

you can't recall...

something that happened years ago with HD clarity? You monster!

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 14, 2012 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

The cultists got to him

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually not alone...

but my brother and I had a one on one trainer (or technically one on two) and yes we did…

All of our comments are irrelevant - LetsGoPSU

by jaytay13 on Jan 14, 2012 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

No, JuggerNitt, it's context

Being in a shower with your parent, and/or with other adults in a public place like a swimming pool is one thing. Having an adult take a child that is not his into a shower late at night with nobody around is completely different.

I’m not saying conclusively that it was a crime, but the context matters.

by psualum9931 on Jan 14, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Depending on peoples ages, I'm not surprised by that at all

Hell, kids don’t even shower with other kids anymore. Most public showers have become single stall showers. I actually have some friends who are appalled by the fact that I showered at the IM building after judo class. Personally, I’m appalled that anyone would consider NOT showering after that, but that’s another story.

Point being, nowadays, this is becoming a rarity.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I had a gym teacher in 6th grade, Manheim Twsp

Stood to watch and make sure everyone showered and when it was a last period gym class, would shower with the students. If you misbehaved in gym class you got paddled, naked when getting ready for your shower. Never really thought it perverted back then but sounds that way now. This would have been around 71 or 72,

I just read.

by BMAN13 on Jan 15, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting. I went to school one disctrict over

A little later though, I graduated high school in ’06.

I can tell you that from my experience in school, kids never showered after gym. Kind of gross looking back, but that’s just how it was.

by ppfcpp on Jan 15, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t recall ever doing it, but it might be generational. Early 30s here. Hell, in Boy Scouts, we got a lecture on what to do if adults tried to shower with us at camp.

by 1LisHell on Jan 14, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I know about the scouts.

I was in the Scouts from 84-91 and can tell you that that was the exact period where they finally started to understand this problem. When I first joined, there were stories of cases of child molestation, but we were never taught about it. By the time I was out, talking about it was part of the “curriculum” and I know for a fact that background checks went from “well, he seems like a nice guy” to “let’s make some phone calls” during that period.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 16, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Anyone who is 30 years old or older and has gone to the

YMCA or YWCA and has used the showers…

Has been in showers as a youth with adults.

Even if you just used the locker rooms there were young and old people all over the place naked getting changed, etc.

"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."

Joe Paterno

by The Heel on Jan 15, 2012 10:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely the YMCA, Boy Scout Camp

on the Swimming Team, YMCA camp, even Church Camp

all those places had large group showers where it was common to see the same sex of all ages in the showers.
The only thing was gender – age was never a consideration in the 50’s or 60’s and even the mid 70’s.

I don’t know when it changed

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 15, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know when (or if) it changed, but people are very sensitive to this stuff now.

I have a male friend who is a shop teacher and wrestling coach. They have the boys shower after practice and, naturally, they have to supervise things to make sure that nothing inappropriate happens between the students (especially with bullying being such a big deal in schools these days). They actually have a policy that two coaches must be present at all times (more for the protection of the coaches than the kids)… and obviously those coaches are not allowed to be naked and in the shower.

As a male that does research on children, I constantly worry about how my actions are perceived by parents and I work very hard to never have to physically handle children in situations where my female co-workers would just grad the kid up in their arms and walk them where they want them. That’s because of cases like this, where the interpretation of actions could very easily skew the truth (which I assume is the conclusion the administration came to about this incident with Jerry).

You would have to be a real dunce, these days, to allow anyone to catch you in a shower with a boy at all, but especially with no other adult witnesses. Of course, I’m not sure this is something that would register as being nearly as odd for someone Joe’s age or even someone that graduated in the 70’s vs. the 90’s. Especially with how many naked guys he’s probably seen in the showers over his career.

by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 15, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying now...

But years ago… this wouldnt have been this huge red flag to a lot of people. Today, yeah it sounds crazy. When people started realizing “Yo, this is not right” has probably evolved with our civilization realizing “Hey there are child molesters out there”.

It just seems like nobody was worried about child molesters 20-30 years ago. I think everyone was much more naive. With the benefit of hindsight… it wasnt a good idea for little kids to be showering with adults.

"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."

Joe Paterno

by The Heel on Jan 15, 2012 11:40 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

They worried about them

they were just a lot easier to spot since they always had the sterotypical trench coat and mustache.

by cs93 on Jan 16, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

So why wasn't Sandusky charged in 1998?
well, wether he witnessed a crime or not is up for debate
An adult exposing his privates to a minor can be a crime.

Obviously it is not up for debate – it is not a crime

He fully admitted to Child Services and Police that he showered with the kid in 1998 and was cleared of all charges

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

He was never cleared. The DA decided not to prosecute. Big difference.

by 1LisHell on Jan 14, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

No difference at all

Cleared or Case Closed it’s the same thing – no crime was found to have been committed

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

right click on image above and click

view image in a new tab to see the whole thing

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

but that's akin to taking the red pill

and then you have to live in the grimy, disgusting, imperfect real world

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

no. that is false. "cleared" and "case closed" is not the same thing and both do NOT mean "no crime was found to have been committed."

Cleared = evidence demonstrated innocent
Case closed = not enough evidence to prove guilt or innocence

Aurobass: Please tell you me you understand and accept this.

by WarBuck46410 on Jan 14, 2012 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

but if you read the transcript

Q: And the case was closed because it was determined no crime had occurred, correct?
A: That’s correct.

Doesn’t get much more straightforward than that.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you - Exactly

No crime had occurred is definitive
that is innocent of committing a crime

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

That is straightforward, but

Warbuck’s point is more subtle, and highlights the incredible ambiguity in the English language, and demonstrates how open to interpretation the written word really is (there is a whole other subset of English that intends to eliminate ambiguity, legalese, but we still have lawyers to translate it and argue it… sorry for tangent)
I read your posted quote as implying no evidence supporting that a crime was committed
I read Warbucks definition of “cleared”, with evidence supporting innocence, as quite different than “case closed” due to lack of sufficient evidence to bring charges

by skins4ever' on Jan 14, 2012 7:46 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I don't know

“was determined no crime occurred” doesn’t leave much room for interpretation. It wasn’t like they said, “insufficient evidence to pursue a charge” or anything like that. Something was determined: that there was no crime.

And heck, for all we know, there was no crime ever committed by Sandusky, however pervy and creepy he may be.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

That is my fear, too.

With all this pre-trial publicity, will some judge decide JS cannot get a fair trial? Part of me thinks JS keeps wearing Penn State gear so the media can harp on the “Penn State” scandal, further tainting the jury pool.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It isn't hard for me to imagine...

that the prosecution is going to have a hard time proving these beyond a reasonable doubt. lt’s a high bar and any physical evidence is long gone.

Opportunity does not equal guilt and he’s already admitted opportunity.

He’s also admitted that he isn’t good at drawing boundaries which might put him in situations where his actions can be misinterpreted by witnesses (and maybe the victims).

It’ll be interesting… and I can’t imagine the vitriol if he does get off. Then the mob line will be that Penn State successfully stonewalled the investigation(s) and we’ll be guilty for enabling a pedophile all over again.

by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 15, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

my memory is fuzzy

So maybe I need some help. The transcript references the 1998 shower incident. I believe CYS found it to be a boundary issue (or words to that effect). So, certainly right on the edge or near the edge of being a crime. But with CYS terming it as they did, I think that influenced Gricar’s decision not to prosecute. And it was This decision that would have led to UP police chief to direct that the case be closed.

by skins4ever' on Jan 14, 2012 8:27 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

CYS didn't even notify Second Mile...

that Sandusky shouldn’t be working with kids after the 1998 investigation, and they absolutely had that authority. The fact that there wasn’t even that level of ‘guilt’ on Sandusky’s part should be enough to dismiss any questions about who did or didn’t know about the investigation then.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 14, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

again to fuzzy memory

I don’t recall reading that CYS did not notify second mile, but I will trust you on that. I do remember reading that Wendell Jeremy was (or should have been) notified that UP police closed the case. And that as Jeremy was also counsel to second mile, he notified them (perhaps that was only inferred in what I recall reading, in that he should have notified them). Nonetheless, I’ll read the book by Posnanski in a few years & maybe all this will be clear (hope he makes use of the A.D., the Aurabass Database)

by skins4ever' on Jan 14, 2012 10:50 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Let me clarify -

CYS may have informed Second Mile as to the fact that there was an investigation conducted, but they did not order Second Mile to keep Sandusky from working with kids.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 15, 2012 7:29 AM EST up reply actions  

JN

Meant to reply to you. See “memory fuzzy” post below

by skins4ever' on Jan 14, 2012 8:29 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

@ skins4ever: confession: i did not read close enough. i focused on what Aurobass wrote (which I still assert is a misstatement).

however, reading the transcript more closely, I would interpret was is said as the witness saying that the evidence was sufficient to show innocence, not merely that not enough evidence existed either way.

by WarBuck46410 on Jan 14, 2012 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

okay, yes. The page is very clear that, at least based on this testimony, the case was closed because the evidence

showed that no crime had been committed. Further down the page, use of the word “closed its investigation as unfounded” also conveys the idea of being “cleared” of wrongdoing.

sorry for any confusion I might have caused.

by WarBuck46410 on Jan 14, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s the testimony of a cop interpreting the prosecutor’s decision. Not the prosecutor who made the decision.

by 1LisHell on Jan 16, 2012 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Line 18 and beyond seem to indicate

that the investigation was closed because the allegations were unfounded. I’m not a lawyer — I know many of you are — but that seems to say that the alleged perpetrator was innocent.

Was OJ guilty or innocent? Many may say he was guilty, but a jury of his peers said he was not guilty. Maybe not guilty =/= innocent, but he walked around as a free man for a few more years. Same-same Casey Anthony. The court of public opinion is just that — opinion.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Acquitted at trial = 'not guilty'

Charges dropped before you even get to the level of evidence that would warrant an arrest? Yeah, really not guilty.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 14, 2012 10:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Possibly more to the point

in the 1998 case, was the fact that Child & Protective Services (or whatever the agency is called) decided not to put Sandusky on a watch list . . . which required a lower standard of proof.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby

by nps on Jan 14, 2012 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

There's no difference

We’re all innocent until proven guilty. No charges means no charges. There are just as many formal charges against Sandusky for that incident as there are against the Queen of Denmark. Zero.

It doesn’t mean the cops couldn’t reopen the case of new evidence comes to light, but that’s always true regardless,( except when double jeopardy attaches, of course.)

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 15, 2012 3:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Lets say I made a bullshit claim to one of your coworkers and said that I saw you molesting a kid.

If I was ever caught alone with a child in a shower in a deserted building, I’d expect that the cops would be called, and I don’t think anyone would say that it was a bullshit claim.

by 1LisHell on Jan 14, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Look, it's weird, creepy, and suspicious

But if that was truly all he did, it’s not a crime. Is it something I’d be ok with if it was my kid? Hell no. But there’s still a big difference between that and molestation.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

But if you were showering with your kid

or foster kid
or grandkid after a workout
you would not expect anyone to report you for a crime either would you?

MM made no attempt to help the kid – ask him if he needed help – or even ask who he was and why he was there.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but there is the possibility it was a crime

Molestation, no, but corruption of a minor, maybe. The law can be vague and the context of the situation matters

by psualum9931 on Jan 14, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm looking at this from Paterno's point of view.

From his point of view,this has been investigated and they found nothing wrong with it. So in this case,we’re assuming (as far as he knows) that they were just showering, nothing else. In that case, it would be wildly inappropriate to keep up accusations of molestation.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

which is how I see it as well.

This is a very grey scenario, though, with many interpretations. Some people recognize that when you read between lines you may read different messages, and some people believe they are the authority on all that is right in the world. I guess it will be up to the future to decide who is right and who is wrong (but it doesn’t take foresight to realize that adamant and unchanging stances can be quite detrimental).

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, okay, I didn't realize you were writing from his point of view

That case, I would agree with you. If he didn’t hear anything back, then I think it is reasonable to assume there wasn’t a crime.

by psualum9931 on Jan 14, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Possibility of a crime

But we have to view this in Context of 2002 and how Jerry Sandusky was regarded by the people who heard from Mike McQueary

Sandusky was known as Successful Charity for Kids Founder and
Foster Father of Six
this is not just “some old guy”

Schultz goes on and on about Jerry being very likable and loved by kids because he behaved like a big kid himself – physical, always with the shoulder punch and headlocks.

So we can’t view this in a vacuum. Who knew if this kid was a foster kid or Grandkid of one of Sandusky’s foster children?
Who knew if he was a substitute foster father for a short time of a kid who needed a place to stay
and if that was the case and he decided to go work out after dinner at 8pm and took the kid with him …… well how weird is that really?

Remember the context of who is Sandusky in the minds of Curley and Schultz

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

if not the cops, Child and Youth Services

I’ve read that Curley told the investigators that he called CYS, but it was from a commentor so take that for what it is worth. I am very interested to hear what Curley and Schultz exactly did with this information. We’ve already seen the AG mislead people in this case already.

by psualum9931 on Jan 14, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Check the preliminary perjury trial - I think it was Schultz's GJ statement read into the record,

where he thought they’d referred it. I kind of remember him stating it more than once.

by be4time on Jan 14, 2012 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

This could be interesting....

The Grand Jury Presentment essentially says no.

Department of Public Welfare and Children and Youth Services local and state records were subpoenaed by the Grand Jury; University Police records were also subpoenaed. The records reveal that the 2002 incident was never reported to any officials, in contravention of Pennsylvania law.

However someone else has suggested that by the time the time lapse between 2002 and the GJ investigation was long enough that such records would have been destroyed. Moving on to the actual testimony next…

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

CYS stated that any unfound reports are purged after two years

so there would be no record of a report from 02 if they found no wrongdoing

I just read.

by BMAN13 on Jan 15, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct on the lack of records

I thought this was neat X-examination. The guy from the AG office said that there was no record of the 2002 incident filed with CYS. Under X-examination he had to admit that.

Curley was directly asked in the GJ Interview if he had referred the matter to SCPD or CYS to which he said, “I did not.”

Schultz on the other hand, comes off as worse. I won’t transcribe it all here, look around page 227 of the PDF from the perjury prelim. He keeps saying that he thought that it was turned over to the authorities, yet he was never interviewed and can’t explain which agency it even is. It’s one of the more damning series of questions in the whole saga.

He doesn’t sound like it was a little out of his area of expertise, he sounds like he’s just downright dim.

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, the repetition by Schultz did seem odd.

Had he said the “referral” only once and thereafter said he didn’t recall exactly (it was 9 years), I’d have felt it more a matter of memory than anything.

by be4time on Jan 14, 2012 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

He was scared shitless

By the time he was called to testify, some additional knowledge may have leaked out about what was going on with JS and he realized that between the AD and the VP in charge of Police he was the one that was going to look most responsible. I think it sounds like he was grasping for straws to try and make it sound like the right thing happened, even if he didn’t do it. I say there’s about 1:30 odds that he is the only one found guilty out of the 3.

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

After poring through more of the testimony

It really seems that Curley and Schultz limited their outside reporting of the 2002 incident to Second Mile. As I have mentioned earlier, I wonder if they really had it in their heads that Second Mile was somehow synonymous with CYS and therefore, they had done their duty?

Again, a mis-step, but I would be more sympathetic to that excuse than the flubbering around that Schultz presented in his testimony.

by cs93 on Jan 15, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

He did go ask McQueary again

read the transcript of testimony

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Transcript

Joe asked Mike if he was OK a couple of times – Ok with what had happened

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for all your input here

As others have said, your work is much appreciated. I am curious, do you know if it says somewhere in the transcripts exactly what Curley and/or Schultz told MM? All I remember was that they told him Sandusky would be banned from bringing kids into the facilities. I’d like to read the actual quote if it’s available.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I will be happy to look for you

I’ve already put most of the transcript into 200 images.

I know they informed Mike that they had notified Second Mile which I think was the appropriate thing
Jack Raykovitz had a mom complain in 98
and he had Curley tell him about the ban and the 2002 shower incident
Raykovitz then knew two of his Second Mile kids had showered with his friend JS causing problems for Second Mile. I don’t know how he could have ignored that problem. If I were he I would have immediately looked for other boys that JS was paying close attention to and asked their parent or foster parent about it in order to head off these problems

But the AG told Raykovitz that 2nd Mile wasn’t being investigated???
This was clearly a problem more for Second Mile than Penn State
So they donated 25 grand to AG running for Gov Corbett

That is extremely suspicious given that he could have charged JS in 2008 when victim one came forward but he did not and 3 years passed

Between 2002 and 2011 Second Mile took in 24 million dollars and Raykovitz and his wife made 2 million – we don’t know who else profited from Second Mile except the Gov who got at least 25 K

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a complete Fanpost ready to go in 24 hours or less

That will lay out my case against the Attorney Generals and Second Mile for their part in extending this horror story while blaming Penn State as a distraction.

Second Mile was a very lucrative charity with 10 million in assets and 2.7 million per year in revenues. Jerry Sandusky was most closely identified with Second Mile and his friend Jack Raykovitz was the exec director and there seems to have been a very cozy relationship with Gov Corbett who was the AG in 08.

This is where I think the real problem lies because Second Mile had the resources and the personnel to do an internal investigation of JS based on the showering complaints of 98 and 2002.
The haven’t really even been mentioned by the AG in this and that’s very bizarre since Second Mile was the hunting ground for Sandusky.

Second Mile is a lot more culpable than Penn State in this situation
Penn State was trying to help Second Mile by providing facilities and PSU got screwed because 2nd Mile failed to check out what Sandusky was doing with Second Mile kids.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the invite, aurabass.

Got your e-mail earlier today, then got sucked into this place. Will try to get over to that site ASAP.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Page 113 of the pre-trial for perjury
Mr. Beemer: You described a phone call that you received from Mr. Curley wherein he indicated that he took several steps, including calling the Second Mile and telling Mr. Sandusky not to bring children up to the Lasch Building or Penn State, correct?

McQueary: Right. That’s right.

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Here is part of it

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Mike McQueary

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Page 37 also

The follow-up from Curley to McQueary is mentioned several times.

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't want to lean too heavily on this,

but Joe followed up with the primary witness, and was apparently satisfied (or at least not alarmed) that that person was himself okay and (big assumption) was okay with the way the situation was handled.

I know there are many who wish Joe had gone all Rambo, but there could have been negative consequnces to that, too. It’s a mad world . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvPkLG-tvzM&feature=fvst

/NoRickroll

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I would think most people

wouldn’t follow up if the guy who told them about a crime didn’t seemt o be pissed off about nothing being done. Which is how I took the onversations between Mike and Joe to have gone from the prelim.

by FB6244 on Jan 14, 2012 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Completely.

And the media says it is because he put himself out there as haing a higher standard. In many ways that is true, but in manys ways it was also a myth that they perpetuated. I never thought he was perfect, just most better than most. I have always felt that in this case he did what he thought was best, like always, and this time, like many others it didn’t work out. If like a majority of the time other people did their jobs too, it would have worked out in everyone’s favor.

by FB6244 on Jan 14, 2012 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

Also, a higher standard in one area does not imply a higher standard in all. As you all know by now, I work in finance and am VERY particular (fussy) about my numbers; at home, I am sometimes slack about chores. (Ask my wife how long the new garbage disposal has been sitting in the kitchen, waiting to be installed.)

Far different with Joe, Big Red, and a possible rape of a child, but we all have our idiosyncracies.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions  

And it is true that this was a more

grave situation than almost any other, but if he acted in what he thought was the best manner, and inline with morale behavior, I don’t hold anything against him at all.

by FB6244 on Jan 14, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Same here.

We all have feet of clay in one regard or another.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

^ Truf.

People want to believe Joe was arrogant because they don’t want to believe how humble he is.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

And keep asking until...

all the way up to Kofi Annan tells you you can rest?

If nothing came of an investigation the first time, what would make a reasonable person not involved with the investigation think going through the cycle again would produce a different result.

Not to mention the presupposition that there SHOULD be a different result in the first place which is absolutely not obvious at the time.

At some point you have to trust people to have done their jobs right.

I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD

Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.

by bconway6 on Jan 14, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

He did ask McQuery

McQuery testified that Joe asked if he was “ok” with the situation. McQuery said he was. He should have said no.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 15, 2012 12:09 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Mike says Joe followed up with him more than once

according to the way I read it.

Something like “Two weeks, a month… a few months after”. was what I remember MM saying in his testimony as far as if Joe followed up with him.

"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."

Joe Paterno

by The Heel on Jan 15, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

See above for quotes from the record.

I was concerned that the lack of addressing follow-up in the WaPo interview was damning, but looking at the court records, I am more sure that while the actions taken by the University may not have been stellar, they were conveyed back to Paterno and McQueary. From that point, I leave it to the rest of you to determine whether they should have convened in Penn’s Cave, donned their Batman and Robin suits and swooped out into the night to mete out their own form of rough justice.

by cs93 on Jan 15, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

He didn't follow up.

Had he, someone would have made sure that information got to this reporter. The omission or follow-up is significant.

The question is how one judges that. I see this through a sociocultural lens. So for me, Joe is Joe.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

of, not or.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, some bullshit

Why is he headline for that article “In hindsight, I wish I had done more” Not only is that headline not really applicable to the interview, it isn’t even correctly quoting him.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 6:04 PM EST reply actions  

Two names that will live in Infamy:

Steve Garban and John Surma

While Tarring and Feathering is now passe, if ever there were two more deserving people, it is them.

My thoughts and prayers are with Coach Paterno, his family and their fight against cancer.

by ljdevine on Jan 14, 2012 6:19 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Amen Smee

The Attorney General made this the Penn State Scandal all by herself
and it is her fault alone that JoePa has been made a villain

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 6:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Aura

From a Penn Stater who spent years living in SEC land, your efforts have been truly appreciated. Thank you for all your efforts on “our” behalf.

*

by Smee on Jan 14, 2012 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Seconded.

Follow my antics: @djv5030

Its the name on the front of the jersey that matters most, not the one on the back. -Joe Paterno

by Dan Vecellio on Jan 14, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

appreciated

even if I completely picture aurabass as a crazy internet nutjob typing away in the dark (and I say that with all fond intentions).

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

From me as well.

Your efforts have been Herculean.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks to all

including The JuggerNitt -- I think? :-)

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

;-)

I know I can be longwinded with my rants on here, but I think you put even me to shame.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I do tend to go on and on don't I :-)

I type faster than i think maybe

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

And Sub Lime

I would appreciate a private chat with you via emai if you would be so kind
my screen name at gmail dot com if you have a minute

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe did exactly the right thing then and now

He’s one hell of a man and a great example

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 6:20 PM EST reply actions  

OH HEY AURABASS

I just found out there’s a new verb named after you when someone tries to make a point! AURABASSING.

I can’t wait until somebody starts “ArtieFufkin-ing” here.

by Artiefufkin10 on Jan 14, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that good or bad?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think I would apologize to him Artiefukin10

You are a more patient man than I

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Cry me a river.

others here have been trashing me on twitter for a long time, directly (i.e. individually named).

by M1EK on Jan 14, 2012 6:32 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

No, that’s better. Read it again and note difference.

by M1EK on Jan 14, 2012 6:41 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

I know right.

I seriously question the morality of anyone who could be friends with a guy like this.

by FB6244 on Jan 14, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Oh snap.

That might be declared uncivil. Or maybe I just took it that way.

by FB6244 on Jan 14, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

No. There’s a difference between attacking a person by name and attacking a group.

by M1EK on Jan 14, 2012 9:37 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Only if it suits you.

It does, so there’s a difference to you.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

And attacking them on Twitter behind their back?

Really?

In my opinion you have totally wasted your second chance. Right, wrong or indifferent your writing has no credibility with the audience you are writing for.

You can respond if you want. And I personally absolve you of any restriction placed on you by Chris or anybody else in replying. I suspect you’ll make my point.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm an adult, so I don't tweet

If someone has something to say to or about me or a group that I associate with, I’d hope they would have the “stones” (it’s all relative since we’re quasi-anonymous here) to do it here. Like this: M1EK is a hypocrite.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 10:04 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I’m completely comfortable with the difference between generalizing a bunch of folks as cultists and calling somebody an asshole by name.

by M1EK on Jan 15, 2012 11:51 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

It also allows you to lump everyone together and call us whatever you want..

While restricting us from responding to you.

The more you talk, the more you prove that not only are you not the smartest person in the room… you’re not the smartest person in the blurb.

Your words prove you to be nothing more than an ignorant, hypocritical, attention starving scandalmonger.

Everytime I tell myself I’m not going to respond to something you write… you come off with a remark like this one. You’re like Andrew Dice Clay with less tact.

"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."

Joe Paterno

by The Heel on Jan 15, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No restriction

and calling a group of people, without identifying their individual members, “cultists”, is, again, far weaker sauce than calling somebody an asshole by name.

Sorry I couldn’t put more commas in there.

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Now you have a problem with my commas?

Believe me, I would love to tell you to your face what I think about you.

"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."

Joe Paterno

by The Heel on Jan 16, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

That was a joke at my own expense

go read my comment again, Einstien

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 6:08 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

My reply was half joking, which I thought was big of me

considering what I think of you.

"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."

Joe Paterno

by The Heel on Jan 16, 2012 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I maintain

That it is much more honorable to directly call someone an asshole who is acting like an one than to go into a different forum and say “man, there are some people that are acting like assholes.”

Basically what you have to be saying for your viewpoint to make sense is that you’d never call anyone a cultist to their face, but you’d characterize a group of individuals as cultists.

And I understand that “cultist” isn’t per se as “bad” as “asshole”, but asshole is just a generic word that is a bit stronger than jerk. If I called someone something like a completely miserable failure at life that should die alone, penniless and cold in a sea of their own shortcomings and insecurities, I’m not going to be censored on TV, but I am saying something far stronger than “asshole”.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 16, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

And because the implication might be out there

I wanted to make it clear that I wasn’t directing those insults at you, M1EK, just providing a hypothetical. I haven’t even gotten that upset with you lately, except for the several recent occasions on which you’ve tried to slither out of some kind of accountability by using passive construction instead of being direct with your criticism.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 16, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Honorable, perhaps.

Civil? No.

Characterizing a group of people, which you are free to consider yourself part of or not part of, outside the forum in question, is very different than calling somebody an asshole directly by name inside that forum.

If you honestly believe otherwise, your own bunch of twitter pals should be getting a large portion of this ire, yet oddly enough I have never seen you do so.

by M1EK on Jan 17, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough

People with more than 390, but fewer than 400 twitter followers are monumental assholes and aspire to be douche bags.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 16, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while.

By your logic, why question the motives of one minority in a robbery when you can generalize the entire race?

Jesus Christ.

"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."

by MainLion on Jan 14, 2012 10:21 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

People have killed in the name of Christ

all Christians must be murderers. Should probably arrest them.

Formerly known as kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries

by Kyle_Martin on Jan 15, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Although I'm guessing that stereotyping is another double standard.

Wrong for us to do it, but ok for M1EK.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 15, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

And you can make another list just as long

with the people outside of Penn Sate that failed. The more I read about what Raykovitz and the Second Mile knew, the more my blood boils. the press should be all over that, but it won’t make the national wire like a good ole Joe-bashing now, will it?

by cs93 on Jan 15, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes, but I had no opinion on them before this

So I’m not really disappointed or disillusioned with them. I am bummed to learn that Second Mile isn’t doing as much good as they appeared to be doing, but I’m hopeful another group will pick up the slack.

I was specifically challenging the false assertion that I (or others who do not believe Paterno willingly abetted and concealed a serial child rapist) am not merely a biased “homer.”

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 15, 2012 8:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I see your point

Wasn’t challenging your list, just reminding everyone that the scope goes way beyond Penn State.

I did know of Second Mile and hoped they would do better.
I do believe that school administrators like the ones that told Victim 1’s mom to go home and think about it would know their requirements as mandatory reporters.
I do wish that CYS and SCPD had found something more tangible to stop JS back then.

Forgive me for thinking it as I write this, but when I think of all the people that JS must have fooled, I almost wish that he is an innocent man with boundary issues, because the alternative is that he was an absolute psychopath.

by cs93 on Jan 15, 2012 11:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No, there isn't

You want there to be a difference though, because you want to absolve yourself of any wrongdoing.

Formerly known as kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries

by Kyle_Martin on Jan 15, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

And

green.

"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."

by MainLion on Jan 14, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

You're a prick.

Twitter that.

"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."

by MainLion on Jan 14, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

No.

There’s a third option in between those two poles, which you exaggerated to ridiculousness for rhetorical effect.

Your option 1 paints Joe as a helpless cog in a machine who didn’t know anything about anything. At 75, remember, not 85.

Your option 2 paints Joe as the main villain, which nobody except a few of the more stupid media people does.

Option 3 is: He’s a guy who did something right and then never followed up to make sure other people did the right thing despite being our moral compass for decades. And the result was that because the other people didn’t do the right thing (and because Joe didn’t follow up to make sure they did the right thing), more kids likely got molested.

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I think the chain...

of causation becomes too attenuated for me to agree with the last part of your last sentence.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 16, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

That's his move

Start out reasonable – the truth is most certainly somewhere between the extremes presented – and then going to the Joe is obviously an enabler extreme that is not supported by any known facts.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 16, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

What mistake did he make?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

It sounds like Joe followed up

with Big Red, which I see as important. If MM said, “Nah, it’s all good, Coach; had a good talk with Curley and Schultz, and, after thinking the incident through, I may have mischaracterized what I saw.” then Joe may have figured the whole thing was over.

If the primary witness changes his/her story, the whole case falls apart. Prosecutors see that all the time, I’m told.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd

I might print this out on little cards, so that when people are work ask me about this I can hand that to them. This is by far the best and most succinct summary I have seen.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem with doing more

is the very likely probability that JS would have come out of an investigation of this incident exactly the same way he came out ot the 1998 investigation.

Now that would have avoided the current shitstom that the Attorney General has single handedly put PSU into but it would not have changed the game with JS>

What would have changed the game is for Jack Raykovitz to have done an investigation with Second Mile kids who were paid special attention to by Sandusky.

He was in a position to find out which kids were getting JS’s attention and in 2002 he knew of two complaints about JS in the showers with his Second Mile Kids.
Those kids were his responsibility and Second Mile was being put in a bad position with the institution that helped Second mile by providing facilities.

This was clearly more of a Second Mile problem than a Penn State problem but the Attorney General told Second Mile they were not a target and Raykovitz had too much to lose Plus the Gov was getting donations from Second Mile

The AG’s decision to make PSU “Equally Significant” to Sandusky and to blow the Grand Jury Victim 2 section out of proprotion to the truth is what put PSU here – not the decision by Joe Tim or Gary that MM’s report was flawed and useless.

HIs account is flawed and useless to any prosecution of Sandusky.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

A Shakespearean character...

with a fatal flaw.

Sadly fitting in a way.

"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."

by MainLion on Jan 14, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes

I never had problems thinking of him as just a guy. That’s why people like him so much.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 15, 2012 12:28 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

What "more" could Joe have done? And why would you have done it?

Can we agree on a couple of facts?
1) Mike McQueary did not do enough – he did not confirm his suspicions, he did not offer his help to the kid, he did not tell a convincing story. ARE THOSE FAIR

2) Jerry Sandusky had a good reputation with Joe, Tim and Gary.
He was a popular charity founder and foster father of six. They had no reason to suspect he was a deviate. He was ‘cleared’ in the 98 investigation.

3) Joe Tim and Gary had to weigh MM’s unconvincing suspicions against Jerry Sandusky’s reputation.

4) Second Mile Kids are the primary responsibility of the Second Mile and Jack Raykovitz.. Raykovitz knew from a Second Mile mom about the 98 complaint and he knew from Curley about the 2002 complaint. Yet he evidently did nothing to check and see if there were other Second Mile kids at risk.
Did Second MIle think it was ok for Jerry to shower with kids even though it led to a serious investigation and complaint from a Second Mile mom and sever risk to the relationship between Second Mile and PSU in 2002?

5) Joe Paterno is a football coach who’s primary responsibility is a football team
Tim Curley is an AD responsible for athletics
Gary Schultz is a VP with administrative PSU duties
but
Jack Raykovitz is the exec dir of The Second Mile primarily responsible for Second Mile kids and Second Mile’s reputation.

Why isn’t the blame for a lack of follow up laid on Jack Raykovitz and Second Mile
Why didn’t Raykovitz ask to speak with McQueary
What did Raykovitz do to try to curb Jerrys behavior that was casting suspicion on him and Second Mile/

Why isn’t Jack Raykovitz under the microscope here?

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 15, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

A guy

that deserved the chance to resign with honor because of the people that didn’t do enough he did more than many – but did not deserve to keep his job. Please don’t forget that.

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, none of what you just said is really germane to what jesse. wrote

It’s an entirely different discussion. I feel like you actually agree with what jesse. said, but don’t have the capacity to actually directly agree with anyone, so you had to expand it out to a separate but related issue to find your conflict. I’m not even disagreeing with you here (though I might, it’s irrelevant), just pointing out that I find it strange and fascinating that you made this comment where you did.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 16, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Octa, check out today's "Success with Hyperlinking" thread.

You’ll find more of the same, including what appears to be an attempt by a certain poster to misinterpret one of your posts to substantiate his view that “Everyone in State College has known for decades that JS was a ped.” (Last comment slightly hyperbolized.)

Junny closed out that thread, unfortunately, but you might find it interesting. No one changed their mind, as far as I can tell, but the thread had to happen.

84

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 16, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Your comment didn’t have a year attached, and many others have insisted now that nobody said they had ever heard any rumors ever before the presentment itself.

Context was not absolutely clear. I had a minute to spend on homework. Apologies if anyone was confused into thinking you were referring to 1998.

Now I expect a response from the others.

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 6:12 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Keep on weasel-wording.

You claimed multiple times that “many” people heard the rumors, implying it was rife in Happy Valley for years. You then cited Octa’s post, knowing you were lifting it out of context and shamelessly using it to bolster a point made by you out of tissue.

Here is your response from others; your turn, Dr. Goebbels.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 16, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I was operating quickly

was headed away from my desk for a meeting. I apologize if I misrepresented you in any way. As I said, I was searching on “Sandusky rumors” (quotes not actually used in the text field), and yours was one that happened to come up that mentioned rumors further back than the GJ story in March.

Bear in mind that many others in this thread and that thread have now claimed nobody ever heard any rumors of any kind at any time until the GJ time period. All of those people are begging correction now, too.

by M1EK on Jan 17, 2012 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Here's more evidence you've talked about this

http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2011/11/11/2554863/attorney-general-concerned-about-paternos-firing#82847289

I "knew" about Sandusky in 2005. I mean, I didn’t hear any specific incidences, but I heard a very reliable and authentic rumor that he was being investigated by certain child welfare agencies.

I’d bet that some people had heard the rumors, but I doubt anyone "knew".

The others here should follow my lead and admit they were wrong, too. We’ll see how many do.

by M1EK on Jan 17, 2012 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

From somebody working at my old barber shop

and likely where many of you got haircuts too:

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2011/11/penn_state_scandal_involving_j.html

Some long-time residents of this tight-knit community said they weren’t surprised a scandal at Penn State took years to come to light.
"It was something that was swept under the rug," said Rebecca Durst, the owner of Rinaldo’s Barber Shop across the street from campus. "It’s been in the rumor mill for a long time — Sandusky’s behavior. But to think that there were other people involved that didn’t come forward and should have to make this right, it reminds me of a brotherhood, a priesthood, that protects someone."

by M1EK on Jan 17, 2012 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

From the evil media

http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/11/18/more-evidence-that-sandusky-abuse-was-an-open-secret/

Some investigators said they were convinced that the idea that Sandusky had an inappropriate interest in, and relationships with, young boys was a fairly widely held suspicion around and even outside Penn State’s football program over the years.

"This was not the secret that they are trying to make out now," one person involved in the inquiry said. "I know there were a number of college coaches that had heard the rumors. If all these people knew about it, how could Sandusky’s superiors not know?"

by M1EK on Jan 17, 2012 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

So

that should be enough for now, shouldn’t it?

Again, I’m sorry for mischaracterizing OctaShield’s comment into something much bigger than it really was. These others should prove the point much more aptly than his comments do.

by M1EK on Jan 17, 2012 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

No rumours

I’m pretty plugged into the gossip around State College and PSU and I never heard anything of the kind.

Contrast that to “Rene Portland hates lesbians.” The media treated that like a scoop when that lawsuit happened, but I’d been hearing that for years and years and I don’t even follow basketball.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 16, 2012 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

But, RJM, he never directed the

comments about rumors at you — they were attributed to the nebulous thousands of other State College/Happy Valley residents who were in that area anytime in the last 20 years or so.

As Octa said: M1EK’s comments are never directed at any one individual. That way, when he gets pushback he can claim, “I never directed any comments at you — why are you picking on me?”

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 16, 2012 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

To be perfectly clear

there was no gossip. I never said I heard gossip. I heard a rumor on one occasion, which I only ever told one or two other people and I never heard anyone else ever saying anything like it at any point until March 2010 in the thread on BSD where someone posted the P-N article about the GJ investigation taking place.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 16, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Everybody knew Rene Portland was not into lesbians.

Everybody. While that wasn’t what I was thinking about, but yeah, it was nothing like that at all.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 16, 2012 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

jesse.

just FYI, you’re the poster who’s articulated opinions most closely mirror my own on this topic. The two above comments in this thread are pretty much taken from my brain (or perhaps had been developed in my brain after reading similar prior comments that you’ve made). Well done.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 16, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

And it seems fair - to follow your observation

that Curley and Schultz were determined to

place the responsibility in the hands of people he considered more capable. If I am presented with a situation I don’t know how to handle, for example car trouble, I seek someone who I expect to handle it. If I take my car to a mechanic, I may inquire about what is being done, however I trust their judgement. I do not interfere with how they feel is best to deal with the issue.
Raykovitz is the expert on Sandusky, Second Mile kids, at risk kids, and has the counselors and contacts with Child Services.
He also has the responsibility for the kids in The Second Mile family, the access to data to determine which kids spend time alone with Sandusky, and the legal requirement as a mandatory reporter report the suspicions.

That isn’t a cover up or failure to follow up. It is particularly appropriate. If an expert on at risk kids and Jerry Sandusky better positioned to handle the McQueary suspicions i can’ t think of who it might be.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 16, 2012 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Cop-out.

Following up and being lied to >>>>>>> not following up at all.

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

So well said

Thank you. I think Joe screwed up but he’s still a good man. Somehow, many people aren’t able to think 2 things at the same time.

by speedomike on Jan 14, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Which to me...

is what this story really should be about so much more than PSU’s tangential role.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 14, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

There will be a book in a few years

and we’ll learn how Sandusky had an entire community deceived. And how it would have been so easy to stop him if people had just been willing to examine things with a critical eye, like they would have with someone new to town.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I am so much...

more interested in that part of the story. That’s the one where the lessons really are.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 14, 2012 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

it's rare to hear about a pedophile with one victim

Think about it. When the news comes out, there are multiple victims. Everyone is always “shocked” and had “no idea”. People generally don’t look at people and go “I wonder if he is a pedophile”.

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010

by letsgopsu on Jan 14, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Then again

do you really want to live in a world where we automatically suspect everyone is a pedophile?

Formerly known as kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries

by Kyle_Martin on Jan 15, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

If we did

Cory Giger would have to answer if he’s a pedophile or not.

by PSUPing on Jan 15, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand the Giger-hate

I find him to be benign. He talks about minor-league baseball well.

Of course, I haven’t listened to him in months because many of the people who call his show about football are so stupid.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 15, 2012 8:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Exactly

This didn’t happen because “good people did nothing”, as much as it was abuser are typically so well respected in society

by psualum9931 on Jan 14, 2012 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what the idiots don't get

Sandusky kept this a secret and it wasn’t that hard for him to do it.

He picked his spots – off hours in the off season at Lasch, in his basement, etc. The only witnesses were the scared kids. By the grace of God, or whatever, that kid in Clinton County spoke up.

The rest of the staff wouldn’t know. Why would they? Think about the people you work with – what are they doing this weekend? Do you know? For certain? No. Secrets aren’t that hard to keep if one tries.

And this is a very typical pattern. Look at the Graham James case in Canada. Similar situation. Or check this one out near where my parents live. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Bradley

Similar pattern of people almost catching the guy but not quite being able to put it together. Maybe just because it’s too hard to believe.

Molesters do not drive around in vans looking shady. That’s not how it works. I think the people who are claiming that all the coaches knew just want to believe that molesters are obvious. They aren’t.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 15, 2012 12:44 AM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

that would mean people actually care about victims, and understanding this type of crime and how to prevent it in the future,

and not about a witch hunt and mob mentality and self-congratulations on who can should about hating child abuse more without actually doing anything of substance to combat it.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 6:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree about the money quote

But how did Sandusky fool his good friend Jack Raykovitz the exec director of Second Mile?

Raykovitz knew of the 98 investigation and Curley told him Sandusky was banned from bringing kids to PSU after the 2002 incident
So why didn’t Raykovitz do anything to find out if he was at least showering with other 2nd Mile kids?

Raykovitz had 2 complaints – one from a 2nd Mile mom in 98
and one from Curley at PSU in 2002 that hurt the relationship with PSU
So why wouldn’t Raykovitz move to see if Jerry was maybe causing problems with other kids at 2nd mile AND MORE IMPORTANT why didn’t the AG both Corbett and Kelly go immediately to SEcond Mile and RAykovitz to try to find other victims in 98

Why didn’t Corbett immediately arrest and charge Sandusky in 2008 with the Victim ONE charges?

Questions on the Way Corbett Handled Sandusky Investigation "How many more victims were victimized by Jerry Sandusky during the course of that three years? … He should’ve been cuffed and stuffed as soon as the first allegation came in the door," Philadelphia attorney Dan McCaffery said. "Everybody talks about a bureaucratic breakdown at Penn State," said Lackawanna County attorney Kathleen Kane. "What about the Attorney General’s Office? It was either the product of politics or inexperience. And either way we cannot allow that."

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 14, 2012 8:02 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

and the sad part is,

if Joe actually spearheaded this investigation, things probably would have gone down correctly, but people would look at it and think there was something “deeper” that JoePa was hiding/trying to protect, because why would HE be the one to do this and a not someone “more appropriate”.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:13 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

No matter what Joe did regarding this

he would get backlash. I am sure of this.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Jan 14, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

agree with the statement

I make this argument all the time when I challenge people’s use of racial descriptors

by psualum9931 on Jan 14, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

My father is the most fair, pluralist individual I know,

someone who has truly internalized “without regard to race, color, or creed.”

Yet, he will still launch into loud, public discussions about JAP cars or something another. He’s incapable of understanding the problem. He actually admires the Japanese people. He just can’t call them that.

I’ve had my face in my napkin at many a restaurant.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

My grandfather too

Sometimes people are just old, and the don’t necessarily realize it.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it is so much that they are old,

just that their conventions and stylings are old. I sometimes wonder what crazy things we find normal to say now will be completely offensive in the future.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

My guess is that it will have to do with communicating on the internet.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

my guess is stuff along the lines of, "that's so gay" and "that's retarded"

Two phrases with which we’re already starting to see the tides of public opinion change. I know I’ve effortlessly and thoughtlessly said both of these without any regard to their actual deeper meaning.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 14, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

Both of those too.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

The joy of language

these things morph over time. My kids love the “Dork Diaries.”
“you’re a dork!” “No you are!”

Use that word a generation or two ago and you’s be eating Lifebuoy popsicle.

by cs93 on Jan 14, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm in my mid 20s

Throughout my youth both of those phrases, as well as a certain 3 letter word associated with the first one were commonplace. They didn’t have any malice in them, they were just things we said. Only since college there’s been a hard push to stop those. Having gay friends also helped to quickly push the three letter word out of my vocab.

by ppfcpp on Jan 14, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I think about the South Park episode where they call the motorcycle gang a bunch of fags.

It isn’t so much that people use certain words to denigrate or reference a specific original group, they just have the word associated with a general sense in their own heads. I know I consciously make an effort to not say gay, fag, retarded, etc, but sometimes it slips out. When it does, though, nowhere in my conscious mind (and I don’t even think in my subconscious mind) am I equating what the target does to homosexuality or mentally handicapped people, or trying to compare or anything. Just somewhere along the lines the meanings of words can change or get diluted, or split into multiple directions.

Unfortunately people don’t always know which definition one may be using. For example, if I were to say that our former senator from PA was a Santorum, would I be implying that he came from the Santorum family, or that he was a frothy mix of lube and fecal matter?

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 15, 2012 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

One of my ME friends in college was deeply religious.

He looked like a punk skater with his spiky blonde mohawk and chains, listened to christian metal (it sounded identical to death metal, but they were screaming about christianity), and the ONLY curse word he would ever utter was “FAG.” Why? because homosexuality was an abomination to God. Besides that and the whole ‘radio carbon dating is crap because the world is 5000 years old’ thing, he was a cool guy to work on thermodynamics problems with at 2am.

by PSUEnrg02 on Jan 15, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't usually use those phrases

but I’m also big on what the intent behind the phrase was.

Formerly known as kmart93
Black Shoe Diaries

by Kyle_Martin on Jan 15, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Meanings are in people, not in words.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 15, 2012 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

my grandfather frequently used the N word

I don’t think he meant anything bad by it. He ever actually knew a black person, it was just a word that he knew.

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010

by letsgopsu on Jan 14, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

a generation gap is a cultural gap

times two, in this case. Joe was, what? 75, and MM was 26-28. Shoot, here in North Carolina that’s like four generations apart.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 7:09 PM EST reply actions  

excellent piece from the media/public relations standpoint; media narrative is becoming more favorable.

So, no taking Paterno’s name off the library, no melting down the statue. It is important not to forget that such were serious discussion points on Thursday and Friday following Coach Paterno’s firing.

This kind of article is moving Coach Paterno from “monster” into the territory of “flawed icon.” Not sure his name will ever get back on the trophy, but in 3-4 years, Coach Paterno’s face can be seen/used on the BTN again.

also, pretty excellent day for the article to come out. lots of people watching sports; lots of this getting covered today and tomorrow with the NFL playoffs. i already saw a long piece on ESPin. Yes, we hate them, but a positive spin from ESPin is a good thing.

Coach Paterno clearly hired some good media/public relations people.

by WarBuck46410 on Jan 14, 2012 7:21 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

He is.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Unlike

the rest of the PSU leadership team, who are in way over their heads on this one.

365 beers from 365 different breweries in 365 days. Game on.
http://www.blognamedbrew.blogspot.com/

by Tailgate Shogun on Jan 14, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

The BoT's collective brain

balanced on the edge of a razor blade looks as tiny as a BB in the middle of an eight-lane highway.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Joe's greatest asset that goes along with his smarts is he is not afraid to admit that he doesn't know something

The problem with many corporate and academic types is that they don’t know what they don’t know. People constantly make business and political decisions based on their own perceptions rather than taking the advice of people in the trenches. Joe is excellent at deciding to seek advice and to question people closer to situations rather than make all decisions on his own, especially off the football field, where he is the buck stop.

I just read.

by BMAN13 on Jan 15, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

All politics aside...

I was unencumbered by employment for a few months after 9/11/01, and got to listen to Rumsfeld’s daily press briefings – that man may be the smartest person to ever hold a cabinet position, and the biggest reason why the press corps hated him was because they didn’t understand what he was saying most of the time. The wisdom required to differentiate what you know, what you think you know, what you might know, and what you definitely don’t know is an invaluable asset, and one in which the great majority of people have no talent.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 16, 2012 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: unemcumbered by employment

May it be on your terms, i.e. your chosen retirement with full benefits!

When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck

by ComfortHePuHuTh on Jan 16, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Being afraid to admit that you don't know something

Easily the biggest problem in the history of leadership.

Man, I hope this is one of those changing tides that will come with the evolution of the Internet.

jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.

by jtothep on Jan 16, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree WB.

While it doesn’t meet my most ideal scenario, the narrative does appear to be moving in a more positive (and authentic, I think) direction.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Why can't the University do this?

Was Joe really the only one holding up this whole-kitten-caboodle? Man, they are really going to miss him…

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 14, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we are all going to miss him.

Well I think there are probably three of us who wont, but they are all a bunch of Noonans anyway.

by FB6244 on Jan 14, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

it’s getting dusty.

by FB6244 on Jan 14, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

This changes nothing for me

Joe was too old to be the head coach of a major college football program. I still maintain that if this kind of thing came to him in 15 years earlier he handles it differently.

The BOT is full of cowards. Can you imagine being the guy who had to deliver the phone number to the Paterno house? Talifiero in 2012.

This is all sad. Sad sad sad.

by speedomike on Jan 14, 2012 8:25 PM EST reply actions  

I think it was more generational than a product of his age in 2002

Also, I don’t want to blame McQueary any more than he already has been, but I think if you tell a guy of Joe’s vintage about something uncomfortable, but without details, then his mind might not immediately go to “my God is this Michael Jackson?” (as mine might). If McQueary had been more specific with Joe, this may have been handled properly.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes....

in Joe’s mind, not to be a wise-ass, if you mentioned a Michael Jackson type “situation”, he might think you are talking abot Kenny #82 Jackson’s younger brother. THIS just does not relate to Joe’s generation.

"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God."

by DerryPharmer on Jan 14, 2012 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Off-topic but relevant

the Patriots are pass-heavy so far: Brady is on fire: 8-for-8. Pats lead 14 – 0 with 6:37 left in the first quarter.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:43 PM EST reply actions  

Honestly, I just flipped over

to the game right at the second score.

But, up until Brady threw the pick to the DB, the commentators have been very complimentary of the Pats offense. Hope potential recruits are watching/listening/being impressed!!

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 14, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Gawd......

I really hope that BOB brings Brady with him to Happy Valley….he’d be a lot better than what we have now, huh?! HaHa.

"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God."

by DerryPharmer on Jan 14, 2012 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I love reading your posts

just saying…

All of our comments are irrelevant - LetsGoPSU

by jaytay13 on Jan 14, 2012 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the investigation of 2nd Mile and the reason JS was not charged in 08 need to be completely addressed by the governor, Atty General and State Police Chief.

If not withing a an outside investigation by the FBI then any and all questions should be addressed during the next election. I’m shocked that NO news media has jumped all over these situations. These are questions for everyone that lives in the state of Pa. because obviously, donating money and not complaining about state contrbutions and budget cuts gets you special favors from this governor.

I just read.

by BMAN13 on Jan 15, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

That was just a local decision

The AG and governor had nothing to do with the 1998 thing.

I think. I’m fairly certain that’s how it worked.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 15, 2012 8:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Your insights are greatly appreciated.

I really don’t know how to reply to Joe’s statements as they thoroughly scare me. Not what he said, thought or did, but in the outcome. I’m reminded of the story of Socrates and how he was the wisest man in Greece for being aware of what he didn’t know. I’ve always valued that type of self honesty and tried to do the same in my life. To see a situation where a person acts on the self awareness of not knowing, and to be vilified for it terrifies me.

This was not a situation where Paterno acted on ignorance and people suffered because of it. It is a situation where people suffered in spite of Joe doing what he felt was best. While the outcome is regrettable, to expect him to have done more holds him to the Herculean standards that we are accused of worshipping.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 15, 2012 8:34 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Graduate school:

A worthwhile masters or doctoral program will make you feel dumber, not smarter.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 15, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Speaking of not bright

Rob Gronkowski. That is all.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 14, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

What a shitty game

And the SF/NO game was a total classic. What a let down.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 14, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm expecting jumpers headed for the Mississippi river bridge. . .

With this on top of the game Monday night, several of my neighbors no longer find meaning in life.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 14, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Bennett/Rittenberg

I stopped reading those two long before the scandal and would advise everyone to do the same.

Its a damn shame that those two are probably paid well to post the garbage you read on that blog. And thats the other funny thing, the quality has gone down since they added Bennett.

by Artiefufkin10 on Jan 16, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

difference is, Ivy League schools don't give scholarships for their sports

so they may have 41 varsity sports, but any that qualify are already in academically. I don’t know if that fits in with your theory or not, I just wanted to put that out there.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Jan 15, 2012 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

It is true that they don't give free rides just for "athletics"

But that somewhat perpetuates a myth, because they give so much financial support to everyone who goes there — by their own admission the “Average financial aid grant = $37,000”. Let’s say a kid comes from average means – parents make $80K a year, have one other child, $65K in equity — Harvard’s low-end estimated scholarship for the kid is $48,000 (they have their calculator online). And if Harvard wants the kid for a marquee sport — football, hockey, b-ball, wrestling — they will find the rest (a middling $8,000) if the kid doesn’t have the finances to cut it. And although the kid will have to pass admissions judgement — it’s not necessarily true they were “already in academically” meaning they are free to be judged by “Harvard’s holistic admissions process” which considers factors such as schooling, intensive test preparation and socioeconomic background. The Ivy League schools DO recruit.

*

by Smee on Jan 15, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

My understanding

Is that if you actually academically qualify to get into Harvard (as opposed to getting in because you’re are rich) it’s pretty much free. I think it was Easterbrook that put the calculations up that Harvard could operate as it does presently for like 300 years without accepting a single donation or charging any tuition at all.

Harvard is richer than most countries.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 15, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Harvard's endowment...

is $32 Billion. The fact that a.) they charge any tuition at all is insulting and b.) that people give money to them when there are so many causes that need it is even more insulting.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 15, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

The wealth of Harvard surfaces manifold obscenities.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 15, 2012 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Reason #19 for......

wanting to take my weapon out of the safe and regain my intent to harm with predjudice status…..tE$PN’s Jeremy Schapp on the Joe interview last night, “……Paterno, wearing a wig and sitting in a wheelchair….”. Aaaah, Jeremy Schapp, balding and barely able to stand….Excuse me, but what in hell does the comment have to do with the interview? Bobby Knight was wrong, Jeremy is not half the man his father was, he is not a man at all. Joe is physically sick and lung cancer is not a pleasant sickness to have. But I guess that is how a reporter may gain attention to him/herself. I know it got my attention.

"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God."

by DerryPharmer on Jan 15, 2012 10:49 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

that is mentioned in all the stories of the interview...even the interview itself.

Didn’t read Schapp’s article (I mean it’s on ESPN, c’mon), but I don’t judge based on stating that fact.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 15, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm just commenting.....

Is it really pertinent? Why not just say that Joe looks sick from his treatments for the cancer and orthopedic problems. The wig? To what purpose? Is it for our sight-challenged “viewers”? Noone, I assume, will say that Joe is dying, except for the bloggers that have it in a Dead Pool.

"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God."

by DerryPharmer on Jan 15, 2012 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

i think this thread has died out, but I'll chime in anyway. the wheelchair and wig: those are in the original article. those are two facts presented in the WaPo article to make Coach Paterno

more sympathetic. along those lines was the phrasing in the article about how Coach Paterno can’t speak very loudly anymore; the lung cancer having, ya know, literally taken his voice away.

in this day and age, you get sympathy from being old and infirm; we’re supposed to help the old and infirm.

there definitely IS a generational difference here. it used to be that appearing weak was a bad thing; self-reliance, strength, do-it-yourself and all that.

quite different now. today, we are taught that a “life of significance” is helping the weak and infirm (usually in the form of donating money).

in this respect, Sally Jenkins did very well; she presented Coach Paterno in a sympathy-generating light. It is good from the media/public relations perspective that such facts as the wheelchair and wig are oft-repeated.

(Having said that, I realize that Coach Paterno is probably mortified although, being a smart man, I am sure he knew it was inevitable.)

by WarBuck46410 on Jan 17, 2012 7:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I just finished reading the whole thread

and I’d once again like to thank BSD for being everything that Audibles on FOS and Lions247 are not.

by PSUEnrg02 on Jan 15, 2012 11:21 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

With you dude

Love this place.

jtothetweet
Yet, bag or not, it’s nigh on impossible to mistake a cat for a pig.

by jtothep on Jan 16, 2012 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

My main response to this whole thread

There were many people on this site who excoriated the people holding positions like mine, assuming Paterno had followed up.

Each and every one of those people should now post admitting they were wrong. And not like jesse did – a weak “so he made a mistake” response, but rather, “you were right; I was wrong; he didn’t follow up, so at a minimum he didn’t do what he morally should have”.

Because I would have admitted I was wrong if it turned out he had gone to the SCPD or the state police. And none of you would want to be worse than me, right?

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 11:52 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

/GIANT WANKING MOTION

Listen M1EK, I get that apparently being the “lone voice or reason” on this is something you’re interested in. However to blatantly lie about facts that are well known at this point, completely destroys your attempt to build your desired reputation as a voice of rational thought in a sea of blue tinted glasses wearers and kool-aid drinkers.

To perpetually insist that there was zero follow-up in any form is simply false and serves nothing more than self satisfaction. Joe clearly at least on one occasion “followed up” with McQuerry to see if he was satisfied with the results. He apparently was. That is “follow up”.

It is clearly not the sort of “follow up” that satisfies your demand for more. Perhaps a reasonable case can be made in that regard, however you have zero credibility to make it as you consistently fail to see the shades of gray and repeatedly make senseless absolute statements that are often blatantly false.

I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD

Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.

by bconway6 on Jan 16, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Sorry

I am not buying this at all. Clearly we were talking about following up with Schultz and Curley, and clearly Paterno and/or his handlers knew this was what the public wanted to know, because that’s what they obliquely made excuses for in this interview.

I myself have Paterno in a quite grey position – it is those on your side who are unable to make distinctions between “did nothing” and “went vigilante”.

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

For somebody who insists that people remember what he says

you missed the point on the SCPD/state police. Somebody asked me what it would take to get me to change my mind completely, and that’s what I said I’d have to hear.

Likewise, others have insisted that it would take knowing for sure that Paterno didn’t follow up to change their mind completely. Well, here we are, and yet nobody has said “you know what, you were right”; instead it’s a bunch of moaning about how Paterno was fired.

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

And by the way

it was a guess; but it was a hell of a lot more an educated guess than those who guessed the other way – because for Paterno to have followed up with Curley and Schultz didn’t make much sense in most logical scenarios – they would have had to lie to him, which was quite a bit more risky than what they apparently already did wrong.

You should get more credit for not believing things that require more, rather than fewer, flights of fancy.

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

What exactly are you "right" about?
Somebody asked me what it would take to get me to change my mind completely, and that’s what I said I’d have to hear.

This statement is what M1EK needed to hear to have his mind changed as to the moral culpability of Joe Paterno.

So you wanted to hear something, and that wasn’t what was said? All that means is that M1EK is dissatisfied with Joe Paterno and that instead of there being a small chance of him being convinced of something else, now there is no chance.

So What?

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 16, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

I was right that he didn’t follow up. It didn’t make much sense given the facts we did know, and I made that case and was called an evil conclusion-jumper for doing so by a bunch of people who said they weren’t just blindly believing in Joe Paterno but were instead calmly waiting for the facts to come out.

The facts are now out, and none of those people have admitted they were wrong.

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

When you admit you were wrong

In your insistence that Joe should have called the SCPD, I’ll consider admitting I was wrong about something.

by ppfcpp on Jan 16, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Not going to do that.

Joe should have called police outside the campus. If nothing else, a paper trail would have existed to prove that something happened (or not).

Somewhat more likely is that the SCPD would have called the UPPD to ask if they had investigated this, and everybody would have found out then that nobody did shit – years earlier, saving many kids from abuse.

by M1EK on Jan 17, 2012 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I was wrong too

The evident M1EKopathy that led to my Homerphobia wasn’t as bad as I though
It is far far worse
Self-aggrandizing smug misanthropes have negative consequences on everything they touch and the evidence of that permeates too many threads here on BSD
A man bent on thinking the worst of good people and making certain everyone knows it is a sad example of humanity. It isn’t a matter of disagreement with a point of view. Even with total agreement I would feel soiled by that shared opinion. Turning people off to this degree has to indicate a terribly sad and light deprived existence but feeling sorry for this guy is almost impossible.

Joe Paterno has nothing to be ashamed of unlike his constant detractor

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 16, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Logistical = logical

Maybe both though.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 16, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Did it say “to OctaShields alone”?

by M1EK on Jan 16, 2012 6:16 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Nor did it say, "Not directed at OctaShields."

If you want to play word games, don’t be surprised if you get called out — again/still.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 16, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

^ Mucho truf

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 16, 2012 6:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Bullshit.

If you wanted to make your actual point in relation to what you, as an individual, said, you could have left out the last paragraph. When you left that in, you turned it into typical passive-aggressive nonsense. Don’t be surprised to get back the same when you do.

by M1EK on Jan 17, 2012 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm now convinced that you have multipersonality issues
There were many people on this site who excoriated the people holding positions like mine

YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE HOLDING POSITIONS LIKE YOURS.

There are differing points of view, but only one M1EK with a persecution complex and a one note argument.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 16, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm sorry

that you lack the guts to admit you were wrong.

by M1EK on Jan 17, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

I was not wrong.

I had my doubts and expressed them. Did some more research and found the following:

Grand Jury Testimony by Tim Curley:

Tim Curley: … Then, to the best of my recollection, I circled back around and informed the president of my actions and then Coach Paterno, Mr. McQueary. I guess that’s the people.

If you can quote the testimony or on-record interview that disputes that, then I will reverse my opinion. In the meanwhile, my friendly suggestion is that you drop saying there was no follow-up since such false statements reduce your credibility.

by cs93 on Jan 16, 2012 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

AND

I’m only saying this because I care – there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing.

by cs93 on Jan 16, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I would imagine what he told Joe and MM...

would be off limits for any interviews because of the perjury cases. So far all that was said in the court transcripts was that Schultz informed MM about the actions taken against Sandusky. It’s still unknown it he explained why he thought those were the best actions to take (e.g. he found no evidence, he believed Sandusky’s ‘horsing around’ story). I’d be very interested in what his explanation to MM (and Joe) was, if there was one.

by ppfcpp on Jan 16, 2012 9:33 PM EST up reply actions  

...

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010

by letsgopsu on Jan 16, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm sorry

that you lack the guts to admit you were wrong.

by M1EK on Jan 17, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

This thread

makes puppies cry.

Consider this my official declaration of non-support of child molestation.

by 06Lion on Jan 16, 2012 9:44 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Context and quotes
“You know, he didn’t want to get specific," Paterno said. "And to be frank with you I don’t know that it would have done any good, because I never heard of, of, rape and a man. So I just did what I thought was best. I talked to people that I thought would be, if there was a problem, that would be following up on it.”

The first time I read this, I scratched my head ‘cause it made no sense. How could Joe not know of such acts? That makes no sense. A lot is being made of this, but in re-reading the whole thing, I more convinced that he is struggling for the words to describe what McQueary didn’t tell him. The audio would be very helpful in understanding this.

Or maybe I’m just being too much of an apologist?

by cs93 on Jan 16, 2012 10:18 PM EST reply actions  

It's nonsense

I addressed this on another thread.

If Joe knows how to use rape in a sentence, he has heard of men being rapists. Maybe, he meant he’d never heard of rape of a boy by a man. But that’s unlikely, and besides, he certainly understood it well enough to know it was something that Curley and Schultz would have to be in on.

I guess he meant something along the lines of he didn’t know if McQuery was likely mistaken or not and he didn’t know how to investigate it so he kicked it up to Schultz and Curley.

Given everything else he said, that’s probably in the ballpark of what he meant, but word for word, it’s meaningless. Nobody should scrutinize that too much and expect it to reveal anything.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 16, 2012 11:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

To clarify

I think he just misspoke because he was fumbling for the words. People not on chemo do that. I’m not surprised he did it a few times.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 16, 2012 11:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Based on the context of the article..

I took “not heard of” as to mean “not personally familiar with”.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 17, 2012 7:33 AM EST up reply actions  

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