The Age of Reason
The longer you live, the more you know. Darwin theorized that you either get smarter as you get older, or you tend to self-exterminate. Stable civilizations have taken advantage of this simple fact of life, and revered the knowledge of their tribal elders for eons.
With age comes experience and knowledge that cannot be replicated with internets or Ipads. In general, everything fundamentally important in life that young folks are dealing with now are things that have been dealt with by their elders a generation ago, and so on.
Some of this reliance upon experience is codified in law. For example, you must be 35 year of age to be President (They made that one up over 225 years ago!),16 years old to drive, etc.
Now, it seems to me that our culture has turned idiot, immersing itself in permanent adolescence by trivializing the abilities of our tribal elders.
I give you two examples of this insidious form of self-delusion.
Firstly, I have seen television advertisements for products that claim to give you a “younger” brain. So, what the hell does this product do? Make you dumber? Make you forget the last five years of your life? Or maybe a few of those bad ones in the middle? Who buys this product? As an older person, I am gleefully awaiting the bankruptcy of this particular pharma company.
Secondly, I am sorry to report that I have also seen people believing that 85-year-old people are unaware of the existence of pedophilia, and the possibility of men and rape being used in the same sentence. I guess you could say that this insults the generations 65 years of age and younger, who we must conclude invented these activities.
Maybe the folks who believe this fantasy should go to an Ivy League college and become more familiar with classic Greek and Roman literature, or the Bible for that matter, which is littered with evidence of these sins.
As an older person, I am saddened by this lame comment, and all that it implies…. leading one to choose between incompetence or disingenuousness.
At least that is what my experience has led me to believe. Maybe I am getting too old.
For The Glory,
Joe From Boalsburg
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This is too deep for me...
I need/want one of those machines they advertise that blows your hair back.
by jessedotsmom on Jan 16, 2012 8:39 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
The problem with people....
is they tend to project their own experience upon someone else’s experience. Sometimes it reaches a point where the subjective baseline is just so strong that the other person’s experience (in spite of everything) becomes totally unacceptable. The objective outlook ,however, accepts the reality that what may be taken for granted by one can possibly be something alien to another.
This is why Curley and Schultz are charged with perjury, why JoePa has been villified by the media and much of the public, and why everyoine associated with Penn State is now some kind of Leper or Judas or something to be looked down upon.
I for one take Paterno’s words at face value and refuse assigning any more meaning to them than what the plain language of his testimony delivers. I can not believe he is a liar.
by TonyLion on Jan 17, 2012 9:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I couldn't agree more.
I do not believe he is a liar, because he is not a liar.
by jessedotsmom on Jan 17, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Oh, nonsense
Unless you really believe Coastal Carolina was a threat in all those press conferences.
Seriously, there’s a long gap between “the whole truth and nothing but the truth under oath” and “told what he wanted to tell to the most favorable media outlet possible”.
This from the person
who accuses others of conflating totally unrelated issues. Now we are reduced to a comparison of someone who inflates the prowess of a clearly overmatched football team, in order to avoid over-confidence on the part of his team, with statements involving child abuse.
Perhaps if Michigan had shown the same humility regarding Appalachian State, they wouldn’t have been mocked so badly back in 2007 . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I think M1EK...
was being a bit tongue-in-cheek.
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 17, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Really, Esteban,
I do NOT want to know where M1EK puts ANY of his body parts.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think of this as being akin to 9/11. After 9/11, Condi Rice said something to the affect of “we never concieved that our enemies would take planes and use them as weapons.” With the benefit of hindsight, anyone should have known about kamikazi attacks in WWII and known it was a possibility. In the context of pre-911, it was inconcievable, but immediately afterward, it was clear that everyone should have known.
I won’t try to speak for Joe, but I believe that when he said he did not know about rape with a man he meant in the context Penn State – with people that he knew in familiar environments, even though he almost certainly was aware of it in a broader context. I don’t think you have to be incompetent or disingenuous to believe that is so.
by dontcallmescooter on Jan 16, 2012 8:39 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Blessed are the Cheesemakers!
Of course, the context is intended to include all industrial activities.
Son of an Infidel.....Eater of Vegetables!
by joefromboalsburg on Jan 16, 2012 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
It's symbolic. It refers to all purveyors of dairy products.
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
This is what stood out to me.
He reiterated that McQueary was unclear with him about the nature of what he saw — and added that even if McQueary had been more graphic, he’s not sure he would have comprehended it.
"You know, he didn’t want to get specific," Paterno said. "And to be frank with you I don’t know that it would have done any good, because I never heard of, of, rape and a man. So I just did what I thought was best."
I tend to think that incompetence is an issue in this statement. Joe is heavily drugged, eyes are fully dilated.
But the statement, and all it implies, is not credible.
Son of an Infidel.....Eater of Vegetables!
by joefromboalsburg on Jan 16, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
plenty of people believe that only a man and a woman can get married
yet I live in a place where that is legal and people here still don’t believe that it is possible
plenty of people believe that only a man and a woman can have a child
yet I live in a place where a man who does not have sex with women has a biological child
I have heard gay men and women say the are not capable of having sex
yet they engage in activities described in the GJ presentment.
Based on these facts, I don’t understand why it is so hard to believe Paterno when he states he never heard or understands sex between two men
I have heard heterosexual couples state they have only participated in penal-anal intercourse and that is not sex so they are still virgins
so why is it so hard to believe a person wouldn’t understand male-male rape since rape involves forced sex which to some only involves penal-vaginal intercourse
by psualum9931 on Jan 16, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
Whether he was lucid or not, I disagree with the premise that he had to know such things.
Look, I’m sure many of our elders know things we don’t think they do. They are just far less willing to discuss it in public.
The problem that I have with Paterno’s statement “because I never heard of, of, rape and a man” is that it is far too ambiguous. I’m sure if you asked him specifics, he might recognize that it’s a concept he is aware of, but that doesn’t mean he’s cognitively aware of it. If you asked him about the Catholic church issue in recent years, there’s a good chance he has a vague idea about it. If he’s ever seen Shawshank Redemption, there’s a good chance he has a vague idea about it. But that doesn’t mean he understands it enough for him to consider when presented with what was told to him by McQueary.
What I think needs to be taken from his interview is that it’s not something he was familiar with and not something he thought of or considered. Whether that’s because he’s old, or because he’s sheltered, or because he’s willfully ignorant on the matter is irrelevant. The bottom line is he admitted he was unfamiliar with the situation and allowed people that he felt were more appropriate to handle it to be in charge of it. Trying to criticize him because he claims he wasn’t aware of pedophilia or male rape is irrelevant to his overall point. With or without his statement about never hearing of such things does not change the overall motive, and does not suddenly make it his responsibility any more than it already was.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 17, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
So, what are tomorrow's lottery numbers
and does Jessica Simpson prefer missionary or doggy style?
Since you appear to be ultra-sophisticated and omniscient, these questions should be within your realm to answer.
Thanks for this opinion piece.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 16, 2012 9:09 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Who's Jessica Simpson?
Son of an Infidel.....Eater of Vegetables!
by joefromboalsburg on Jan 16, 2012 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't you ever watch the Simpsons?
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God."
by DerryPharmer on Jan 16, 2012 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
The older you get, the more you become aware of human depravity.
It only gets worse, and you remember it all.
Son of an Infidel.....Eater of Vegetables!
by joefromboalsburg on Jan 16, 2012 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
That is true for some,
not all, and the generalization is, like most, unfair and simplistic.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
While you may amass more knowledge as you age
the idea that older people are smarter than the young is, to follow that train of thought, about as smart as an embryo.
Further, I don’t know that Joe said he didn’t know of pedophilia. I think he said something to the effect that he’d never heard of a man raping another man. I know that I wish that I had never heard of such a thing.
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
How's this for reason?
Saban met with a recruit this weekend and told him they couldn’t honor his verbal because they were over committed (he was the 7th verbal of the class). Saban promised to honor the scholarship next January, and even signed a piece of paper promising him that he would give him the scholarship next year! Saban said they would get him a job in the meantime near his home!
And the recruit? He is going to stay committed. He knows they are going to honor the scholarship because “they told me they would”. Just like last time?
And yes, JFB, it has nothing to do with your topic. I just can’t handle discussing this anymore.
Leaders Co-Champions
That's crazy
Why, other than blind allegiance to a school you’ve never been to, would you wait around for a team that’s already way too crowded and that clearly doesn’t think you’re very good? Saban’s voodoo is ridiculous.
by TheWrathofQBEagles on Jan 17, 2012 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
And obviously knowledge isn't always passed on
It’s why the phrase “history is doomed to repeat itself” exists.
It is why we don’t understand many of the codeces of the Mayans, nor the Quipu of the Inka, nor why certain skull surgeries were preformed by ancient cultures.
Weren't the Mayans???
"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God."
by DerryPharmer on Jan 16, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Give it up
I don’t think there’s anyway to know what he meant.
The statement pretty much internally contradicts itself. If he knows what rape is, he knows about men being rapists because most rapes are committed by men, obviously. And he’s read plenty of history books and he used the word “rape” correctly in that sentence, so it’s likely he knows what rape means.
Perhaps he meant “a boy,” instead of “man.” I guess that might make sense although it’s very unlikely that he’d literally never heard of sexual child abuse. Maybe he’d never never actual full-on child rape in the way the GJ report says it happened, but that’s not really the point. The rest of what he said shows he understood it well enough to know it was something he didn’t understand very well, so to speak. He knew it was a big deal that required him to call some senior people.
But while it’s clear he probably didn’t mean literally what he said, it’exam possible to know exactly what he did mean. I suppose he meant something along the lines of “I didn’t think a guy like Jerry Sandusky could do such a thing, but I didn’t want to just dismiss it out of hand. I didn’t know if there could possibly be an innocent explanation. I didn’t know how to investigate it or if this could be investigated.”
But that’s just a guess. One way or the other, he couldn’t get his brain around it. If he had, he’d either have pursued it more or, if we go with the “evil Joe” hypothesis, cover it up completely. He did neither.
Hopefully, he’ll get better and be able to clarify. Or maybe it really doesn’t matter anymore.
It’s not uncommon for lucid people to accidentally say something nonsensical – like the scenes on a DVD blooper reel – but they usually correct themselves. It’s harder for a guy in his state to be completely on top of it.
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 16, 2012 10:48 PM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
You're right, we don't know exactly what he menat
so you continuing to state exactly what it means is totally worthless to everybody but you.
by psualum9931 on Jan 16, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
That's not what I was doing
I was trying to explain why it doesnt make sense. We can’t be sure what it means, but I think we can infer what it does not mean.
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 16, 2012 11:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You were trying to explain why it does not make sense to you
not why it does not make sense to everybody else
by psualum9931 on Jan 17, 2012 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
No, it's not just me.
His sentence logically contradicts itself based on the definition of the words.
It’s not just a subjective opinion.
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 17, 2012 12:32 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I can easily see a guy like Joe being completely at a loss when talking about anything other than football. I know people that are so completely consumed by their profession, that they can’t tell you who the president is. Extremely successful people are often that way because they are so completely focused on their goals. They pull on the blinders on every morning because that’s what the job demands, and they’re not willing to fail.
I'm a pretty big Joe fan in general, but
that’s simply silly. Joe has spent his life expounding on the virtues of being educated. He has gone out of his way to illustrate he is not on of those “blinder” people.
I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD
Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for ONE
person to be “educated” on every subject, and, frankly, none of us need a greater “education” on human depravity. And, please remember this is Joe Paterno, a guy who can discuss “The Iliad” with prospective recruits but who has claimed for years he doesn’t read the newspaper, listen to the news, etc. as a defense against hearing the hate when we lost to Team X.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
To know things requires an understanding.
You can not truly know something unless you have some sort of understanding about it. We know Joe, pedophilia and male rape are not things he would have any desire to understand, and therefore he doesn’t know them.
While it’s nearly impossible that he’s never heard any mention of these topics, if he doesn’t understand the concepts, it’s likely he’s not going to attribute it to these issues when he does encounter it. If I overhear two physicists discussing astrophysics and its principles, I’m not going to know that what I heard was astrophysics. I’m going to consider it science and not concern myself with the nuances. While I’m sure Paterno is aware of the broad issues of rape and sexual abuse, he may not be aware of the nuances towards pedophilia.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 17, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
^ Truf
Well said, SWHA.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Yes
I’m narrowing down the viable options, but the left over range of viable options is still fairly wide. Within that range, we can only make educated guesses.
He’s sick and tired but he’s not in advanced Alzheimer’s. It’s not just random gibberish.
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 16, 2012 11:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No, you are narrowing down the viable options to what you perceive them to be now
not what they were to Pateno at the moment to him
by psualum9931 on Jan 16, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
Also
When has a Joe Paterno comment been anything other than somewhat nebulous?
by ncpsu on Jan 16, 2012 11:47 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
"Quarles has a knee."
“Temple has a heck of good football team.”
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 16, 2012 11:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I mean, if you take it literally
Then it’s not very credible.
If you don’t take it literally, there are a lot of possibilities. I imagined Joe saying it out loud "I never heard of conveying more meaning than the words “I” “never” “heard” and “of” can convey individually, or even when written. I imagine a hint of scorn or even anger as opposed to a sort of aloof ignorance. The saying of the thing being more important than the thing said.
And if you look at the entire line, he pauses after “of”. I think of my experience with speaking and listening. Sometimes you start a statement with a clause, then reach the next clause and realize that the first clause wasn’t exactly going to match up. When I’m sitting at a keyboard, I’ll just delete. When I’m speaking, I’ll either just roll with it or explain profusely what I meant. I can’t know any more than anyone else, but I get the feeling that if Joe was typing, he’d probably have deleted “I never heard of” and replace it with “I wouldn’t have been able to believe” or something. They might seem worlds apart in meaning, but the difference between starting a sentence with one or the other is probably more a matter of habit than reflection.
Truth is, there was a thought in Joe Paterno’s mind that he had to translate into words, and then he had to relay those words to the listener, who has to translate them into meaning for themselves. So whatever you think it is, it is. But I’d be wary to attribute much intention to the speaker without more context, especially when none of us heard him say it or know more about his usual way of explaining things than we’ve seen in press conferences.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 17, 2012 2:27 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I agree with the notion that Joe was medicated out of his mind for the interview.
No way an 85 year old man from Brooklyn never heard male on male rape or man on boy rape. That’s just a huge leap to make to believe it. I cringed when I read that.
I think the interview as a whole was a big mistake. Yet another PR disaster in this whole, sordid affair. It did more harm than good. If you don’t have anything completely new and somewhat earth shattering, or something that exonerates you, why speak at all? The attorney or attorneys who okayed this must have also been “medicated”.
I do find it quite ironic in all this that for years Joe’s detractors (especially the Pitt fans) have been saying that he’s a senile old man and figurehead of a coach. Yet once this scandal broke those very same detractors were the ones screaming the loudest that Joe knows everything and runs everything at Penn State. Huh??? Yeah, that fits right in with a senile old man who’s a figurehead.
As usual I stay out of this except when something like this happens:
No way an 85 year old man from Brooklyn never heard male on male rape or man on boy rape.
(most relevant factor in knowledge of man rape emphasized)
I'm the XBOX to your Atari.
Seriously.
I mean, freaking Bugs Bunny would know what it is. Joe didn’t lead any sheltered life growing up where he did.
I think you'd be surprised by what people don't know
…even well-educated, wordly people have limited understanding of certain things. I’m in financial services, and am continually amazed by how little many people know about money, investments, etc., even their own. I have successful, wealthy clients who couldn’t explain exactly how their 401ks worked (before they came to me, of course).
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by nps on Jan 17, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, you guys!
I meant that men rape one another on the streets of Brooklyn CONSTANTLY. You can’t throw a stone without hitting a man rape in progress. That was my point.
I'm the XBOX to your Atari.
But should you be throwing those stones, World?
I mean, isn’t that the whole basis of these mind-numbing arguments? The would-be stone-throwers vs. the non?
LOLZ
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
By not throwing a stone at a rapist in order to interrupt the rape in progress, do I not become an enabler of the rape?
Not in Brooklyn!
I'm the XBOX to your Atari.
What does Brooklyn have to do with it?
Is there more male on male rape in big cities?
"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13
by kijana's acl on Jan 17, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
C'mon, you know.
People from certain places tend to be more “streetwise” than people for other places.
The average person from the Brooklyn should certainly be more streetwise and have more knowledge from the streets and the college of hard knocks than say the average person from Amish country.
Yeah, and growing up in the
1930’s and 40’s = 1990’s and 21st century.
/snortofderision
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Harry Truman once said:
“Nothing new happens. The only new things that happen is the history you don’t know.”
All the bad human traits, tendencies, and conditions we have today existed in the 30s & 40s (and prior to that, heck this kind of stuff is mentioned in the bible). True, they weren’t as openly discussed, but they were still discussed amongst males (locker room talk).
Plus Joe was the one who was always saying that kids haven’t changed. Heck, he just said it again this past summer:
“Every now and then, I hear guys say, ‘Oh, the kids today,’ " said Paterno, who sometimes has been accused of being unable to relate to players young enough to be his grandchildren. “They ought to go back and read Socrates. Socrates, in 400 B.C., said, ‘The kids today are terrible. They tyrannize their parents and don’t pay attention.’ That’s 2,500 years ago.”
"the history you don’t know"
Right, and to Joe is ascribed omniscience on all topics. I understand that argument — I just don’t agree with it. That some of you do is your prerogative, and it is fine for you. Beating the rest of us over the heads with your supposed superiority (not directed at you, J Breezy) is where I draw the line.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
I take Joe at his words.
And I don’t have a problem with them. These sordid things were simply not discussed by that generation. And the statements in the story fit well with the accounts of Joe not at all understanding the hysteria until his family forced him to read the GJP. There’s a big difference between intelletctually understanding that something is possible, and the true understanding that the possibility is a reality. Finally, think real hard about the sources from where you learned about such ‘possibilities,’ and then consider the liklihood that someone of Joe’s generation would have encountered those sources in 2002, bearing in mind again that that is not something that was ever a topic of conversation or joking amonst friends. I think it was late high school before I finally understood the jokes about ‘dropping the soap.’ And I’m positive I didn’t learn what it meant by watching the evening news.
by PSUEnrg02 on Jan 17, 2012 7:23 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Exactly.
When you go on one of those giant cruise ships, the very first thing they do is force everyone to congregate at their muster zones and give them a giant safety speech about what to do in the event of an emergency, which is always a real possibility. No one listens to a word of it, because of course there’s no way that ship is going to sink, but they’re certainly aware that it’s happened before. Then the Costa Concordia runs aground and no one knows what to do or how to react until the boat is halfway sunk. Then all of a sudden everyone panics, and chaos ensues despite how prepared everyone should have been. In that specific case, even the captain said “all is well, it’s just a minor mechanical problem” to the initial inquiry because even he hadn’t considered the possibility of sinking the ship.
This is exactly analogous to our current situation. Everyone, including Joe, had heard of child abuse. But that doesn’t mean anyone expected it to happen, and especially doesn’t mean that anyone was looking out for it. This rings truer of a man who was from a generation where nothing sexual was ever talked about. I agree with above posters that taking Joe’s words literally is a mistake (among these other reasons, when has Joe ever said anything to be taken literally to someone from the press?), and Joe simply was caught completely off-guard. He looked to his “captains” who, through their actions, were saying all is well. What if the captain of the Costa Concordia had recognized the possibility of a shipwreck when it was first brought up? What if Gary Schultz had started an investigation into JS, knowing that he’d been investigated into previously?
by dbl5030 on Jan 17, 2012 9:31 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
To extend my analogy a bit
The JoePa haters will tell you he should’ve recognized what was going immediately and started shouting from the rooftops about child abuse. So in the cruise ship example, that’s like saying the guests should’ve immediately recognized that the ship was going down as soon as there was a bump in the water. Would it have helped matters? Most likely, since a panic was inevitable anyway and the boat could’ve been evacuated more quickly. Anyone that did suspect anything probably kept their mouths shut, thinking it was better not to create a panic and trust the ship’s captain and crew to make the decisions. After all, what if they had created a panic when the ship wasn’t about to sink at all? That would be disastrous in a different sense.
It’s still ridiculous to then blame those guests for any injuries/casualties. It wasn’t their place to make that call, and they recognized that.
by dbl5030 on Jan 17, 2012 9:44 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Nothing sexual was ever talked about?
He didn’t have a problem talking about sexual issues and one-night stands before the Orange Bowl:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_409749.html
The “never heard of rape” line remains ridiculous, sorry. Maybe the medications and treatment have robbed Joe of his clarity, but he was apparently well enough to give the interview and his attorney/PR guru signed off on his quotes. Let’s not pretend that Joe was some naive old grandfather who never left his hometown. He’s a brilliant man who is versed in issues and subjects beyond most mortals’ comprehension. He’s donated time and money to countless charitable causes. He did business with the people who run Second Mile.
Are we really supposed to believe that he never heard of sexual abuse not involving females? That’s insulting to everyone’s intelligence.
by Chris Grovich on Jan 17, 2012 9:57 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Fantastic, you've refuted one part of one sentence.
My overall point still stands, especially the part where I say taking Joe’s words literally is a mistake.
by dbl5030 on Jan 17, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Also, I clearly state
Everyone, including Joe, had heard of child abuse.
All I can think of...
Besides too many drugs is too many drugs and maybe be he meant “I never heard of it” differently, in that it’s not something that he had ever specifically dealt with before. While that’s not what he said, it would be consistent with what he said in the rest of the article. I mean Sue Paterno had clearly heard of it, and had a pretty visceral reaction to it. He’d clearly dealt with rape before, but always in a much different context.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I think he meant "it's not something he had ever specifically dealt with before."
Also, interesting is the Q and A Sally Jenkins did online yesterday. This part provides more context for this part of the interview:
Sally Jenkins :
Yes. I asked him point blank, “Why didn’t you follow up?” Paterno satisfied the law when he reported to athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz, but he satisfied very few other people, including himself, when he never followed up. He did follow up with McQueary on a number of occasions, according to McQueary’s testimony. But he never took it up with Schultz or Curley again. I asked, “What SHOULD you have done?” He replied that he should have called Curley and Schultz and said, “Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?” I then asked, “Why didn’t you do that?” Which is when he lapsed into the discussion of discomfort with the topic, his inexperience with it, and his reluctance to be seen as if he was interfering with university procedures on Sandusky’s behalf.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
I was thinking when I first read the interview that sadly his not following up...
…puts the kibash on that rumor he did (I believe Ben Jones reported it early on and at the time said it was something like 3rd hand info and to take it with a grain of salt). You know…the one where he followed up and supposedly wanted to ban JS from campus or something like that and was told he did not have the authority to do so, etc.
I can buy the "not wanting to seem like he was interfering with university procedures".
That’s seems reasonable and believable to me.
I think it's understandable for him not to have followed-up
I also think it was wrong. If I was in that situation, I have no idea what I would have done. I probably wouldn’t have done any better than Paterno, and if that was true, I would also have “failed” some sort of moral code.
Paterno was put in a very difficult situation. He didn’t act perfectly. He didn’t act horrendously either. The problem for him is that his actions, at the most poignant part of his life, perhaps, didn’t meet the standard that he set for himself and his players. That’s understandable — it’s a tough standard (the only standard worth having) — and it shouldn’t (and ultimately won’t) destroy his legacy. But that isn’t to say that he’s blameless.
What happened to Paterno in this case is similar to what happened to his coaching over the last ten years: he became an enemy of his own success. He set a very high standard for himself: both for his personal conduct and for the on-field success of his teams, and when he failed to meet the expectations he had set, he was crucified for them.
This is why I will continue to set the bar low in everything I do.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
by spakajewia on Jan 17, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well put.
I especially like the last line. That’s sage advice for us all!
In all seriousness, though. Yes, Joe did fail. But I think AT THE TIME he thought he was doing what was not only right, but enough. His line “with the benefit of hindsight I should’ve done more” has been mocked by many, but it is actually such an accurate statement. In hindsight he certainly should’ve (and wishes) he had done more. But AT THE TIME there was no hindsight.
In hindsight I could wish I had picked different lottery numbers. Yeah, lots of good that would do me know!
Your last paragraph
turns a very serious issue into a joke. I don’t think that’s where you should go with this. Some might call it reductio ad absurdum.
Many people think Paterno just wanted to get the issue off his desk. That’s very different from picking the wrong lottery numbers (or interpreting a bump on a cruise ship as impending disaster).
Joe DID follow up --
with Mike. Since we are all assuming everything, try this on for size:
Joe: “Hey, Mike, you were pretty shook up last week? Did you talk with Curley and Schultz?”
MM: “Yeah, Coach, we talked and are working through some things.”
LATER:
JVP: "Mike, did “that” situation ever get squared away?"
MM: “Yes. I talked with some folks, and it looks like it’s over. Sorry, Coach, gotta run — I told Jerry I’d play golf for the Second Mile charity event this afternoon.”
NOT painting Big Red as the bad guy, but HE is the one who could have influenced Joe’s actions to a greater degree. I’ve talked with my kids after some situations, then followed up. Even if I’m not completely convinced I got the whole story, I would drop my involvement out of respect for their ability to handle/deal with things.
Because Joe didn’t go all Rambo on JS/Curley/Schultz, some of you are preparing the cross and nails. Sad . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
MM
is a huge unknown at this point. There are many reasons he could have acted the way he did, ranging from callous and/or clueless to really sad.
Note I offered my scenario
as an assumption — not better or worse than some of the other tin-foil interpretations being offered here.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not crucifying Paterno and I'm not suggesting that he go "Rambo"
I’m simply saying that he himself said to Sally Jenkins
that he should have called Curley and Schultz and said, "Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?"
Anyone who’s crucifying Paterno is wrong. So is anyone who says he is blameless. Circumstance put him in an incredibly difficult spot and he didn’t act perfectly. Few of us would have. He could — and should — have done better. He set an expectation (to me, as just an alum and fan of his) that he would act better than he did in this situation.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
Agreed, Spak.
My position continues to be, “There is more to emerge in this story.” Joe’s counsel was there, and COULD HAVE coached him to avoid anything that taints Curley’s/Schultz’s trials. That said, it is very disappointing to hear Joe confess that he did not follow up with anyone aside from Big Red. It diminishes, but does not DESTROY, Joseph Vincent Paterno in my eyes.
And there is a broad continuum of opinions regarding Joe’s actions or lack thereof. I am merely trying to counterbalance those who have singled him out with failing to meet a standard that very few people outside of Jesus Christ have met. There are some who, apparently having thought at one time that Joe = Jesus, are now portraying him as Lucifer in response to their own disillusionment. AND they carry that to the extreme where even a limited defense of Joe-the-man is mocked.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with your sentiments.
Let’s not forget that these judgments can only be determined with the benefit of hindsight. Do I believe Joe should’ve followed up? Yes, I personally do. Do I understand why he didn’t? Absolutely.
Would following up have mattered if Schultz and Curley found the allegations to be true and took appropriate action? Or would it have made a difference in the series of events that we’re aware of? It’s impossible to say. Would it have helped Paterno look better? Yes, but that doesn’t mean the outcome would’ve been any different.
This is the problem I have with most of these arguments. They’re strictly to support judgments. And those judgments are then used to place blame. All of this is open for debate, and will never be solved. At the end of the day though, if we determine that he acted with best intentions, what does vilifying him accomplish? It’s not going to be definitively proven that his lack of following up could or couldn’t have changed the outcome. If we can’t determine that, then why bother debating it?
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 17, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
More good points.
I am really inclined to be a “Live, and let live.” kind of person, but I do engage in these (meaningless) discussions because of the lack of respect demonstrated by some who would have all of us forget the years decades of service given to Penn State by Joe and Sue. And, just as a reminder, that service is not only on the football field, but to Penn State and hundreds (thousands?) of young men whose lives have been positively influenced.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Did Paterno act with the "best intentions"?
We don’t know, and won’t know. My personal guess is that he acted the way most of us would have: he wanted to get this off his desk as soon as possible and tried to pretend it never happened. That, I think, is the most likely scenario.
If a man one had known and mentored for decades was accused of something this serious and awful, I think most of us would hope that it wasn’t true and our minds would deceive ourselves into pretending that the thing never happened. If I was in that situation, I imagine that I wouldn’t want to think about it if at all possible. And so, I would simply ignore it to the extent I could.
This is very understandable and also, in Paterno’s case, very tragic given the reputation he had built for always doing the RIGHT thing, not just the “understandable” thing.
I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.
One can ascribe whatever one wishes
to another, esp. in judging actions taken (or not) by that other person long ago and far away.
If Napoleon had not invaded Russia . . . .
If Lincoln had not gone to Ford’s Theater . . . .
If . . . .
Just sayin’.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know if I agree that he was trying to pretend it never happened.
He did follow up with McQueary on multiple occassions. I think that had McQueary expressed dissatisfaction with the outcome of the situation, then we would’ve been able to determine how committed Paterno was to the situation based on his actions. As it stands now, that McQueary expressed his satisfaction with the outcome, I don’t understand why Paterno would feel a need to involve himself again.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 17, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
I was told
that one shouldn’t jump to conclusions without hearing all the facts. McQueary hasn’t told us what, if anything, he said in these meetings which may or may not have occurred.
And McQueary is somebody we actually stand a very good chance of hearing from under oath on that at some point in the near future, unlike Paterno.
No lawyer will find it relevant
to ask McQueary if Joe Paterno followed up with him. It simply doesn’t enter into the case.
I think you keep mistaking “testimony under oath” with “complete and accurate story”. The testimony has the sole purpose of trying to prove defendants’ guilt on one hand or raise reasonable doubt on the other. There will be a lot of parts of the story that the casual viewer will be interested in which won’t even be glossed over in court, because it has nothing to do with the guilt of the accused.
The only way I could conceivably see McQueary answering any questions about Paterno following up would be if asked by Curley or Schultz counsel, in an effort to show that McQueary never pressed further when he saw what action was being taken (tending to support their proposition that he did not represent what he saw as a serious criminal offense, but just something inappropriate, as they’ve claimed). And that’s pretty attenuated. Otherwise, we won’t hear about that kind of thing.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
That's a really important quote.
It should be repeated in many threads, some of which are now locked.
It explains, but does not come close to excusing, and many people need to take it into account rather than just saying “seems reasonable to me”. It was obvious to some of us that this was the most likely thing that had happened a long time ago. Those who didn’t believe it possible just because of who was involved should use this as an opportunity to re-examine their cognitive biases.
I shouldn't do this, but I'm going to anyway.
At no point has anyone said it was not possible. Most people said it was unsupported. And you are confusing the understanding of the actions with the approval of the results.
I find his actions to be reasonable and excusable. The results not so much. I don’t believe that his actions were necessarily right, and the extent of damage they caused has yet to be determined. My reservations have always been regarding Paterno’s motives. The immediate conjecture was that he acted the way he did to preserve his wins and to protect Penn State. I felt both of these understandings were complete bullshit.
The reality of Paterno’s version is that he was human. This doesn’t change my opinion on his actions. He acted with best intentions, and that is what I gauge the morality on. The results seem to indicate it was the wrong decision, but results do not dictate morality. This is my re-examination of my understandings, and they will continue to be re-examined as more information comes to light.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 17, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
The voice of reason
is always an easy rec.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Not true.
Many people said it was not possible that Joe wouldn’t have followed up. Many more said it was very unlikely, even though it was difficult to construct a plausible scenario that would support that and also the facts that we knew.
Fine, you win.
I’m sure that at some point, someone said it was not possible. I don’t want to get into semantics with you. If you don’t consider him following up with McQueary to be following up, then fine. To each his own. The rest of my points still stand, and they are not predicated on whether or not someone at some point has stated “It’s not possible that Paterno didn’t follow up.”
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 17, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
He did follow up
University Park Police are real, and you are an expletive deleted. No matter how many times you fail to acknowledge this, the facts are still true.
by FB6244 on Jan 17, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
you are confusing the understanding of the actions with the approval of the results.
This is an idea I’ve never been able to articulate as well as you just have. Very well put.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 17, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's a very difficult thing to express.
I’ve truly been amazed by the number of times I’ve had to express that I do not condone child abuse, and do not think that children being raped is acceptable.
The sad fact is that sometimes the best decisions produce the worst results, and for reasons inexplicable at the time, successes are produced by horrible decisions. It’s only when we apply hindsight to these situations that we are able to learn from them and apply that knowledge to the present and the future.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 17, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
One of the most haunting examples
of the “best decisions produce the worst results” might be the (apochcryphal?) story about the atomic bombs used against Japan. After the first was dropped, the Japanese were given yet another ultimatum to surrender. Their response?: “Your demands are beneath consideration.” which implied contempt and lack of cooperation. Bombs away, Fat Man (device number two).
Later, someone argued that the Japanese word used could have been interpreted “under”, yielding a reading of “Your demands are under consideration” — implying study and review.
An example of how hard it can be to communicate, even if we are speaking the “same” language.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My position has not changed on this since the begining.
1. JoePa acted reasonably and is a great person who is being villified for not going above and beyond.
2. You are one of the more disgusting people I have ever run across on the internet.
In both of these cases, my original opinions continue to be verified. The fact that a low-life such as yourself has the audactiy to question the motives behind JoePa’s actions is appalling.
by FB6244 on Jan 17, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree that it is hard to believe that Joe never heard of this sort of thing
But that one sentence, whatever it meant, is not going to define Joe Paterno or his role in this whole sordid affair for me. As far as I am concerned it seems like a very minor talking point.
That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.
Won't define him to you, yes.
But I don’t think the point of the interview was to define him to you (or anyone else not vilifying him).
I would tend to believe the interview was done in an attempt to restore Joe’s image by getting his side of the story out. I really can’t imagine why else it would be done. I mean, if he knew his side of the story would make him look even worse, then why the heck would he give it?? Anyway, the sad fact is that quote will and does define Joe in a “not good” way to an awful lot of people who were either already against him, on the fence, and even some who were defending him prior to the interview.
Again, this is why I think the interview was a mistake at this time. I’m going on the assumption that Joe was affected by the meds. Why anybody would let the guy speak in that state is beyonde me. Unless……unless, the unspeakable – that it’s now or never for him to try to defend himself, if you know what I mean. Sans that, I think it was a huge mistake and a PR disaster for him and PSU.
I don't think it was a disaster.
Has it really made anything worse? The same writers, commentators, posters, etc. who were against him before, will always be against him and find anything to make their point.
At this point anything that doesn't make the school look definitively better is a PR disaster.
His interview cleared up nothing, did not especially exonerate him, proved what the critics have been saying all along (he didn’t follow up), and really revealed nothing new. In light of all that it would’ve been better to say nothing.
In my original post
I was trying to say that I think people are making too much out of this one sentence. It just seems like a very minor point.
As for whether or not this was a disaster, all I can say is that since this interview was published, I have seen a couple of stories characterizing Joe’s situation as “sad” or something to that effect. That is a couple more than I saw in the 2 months prior. I’ve stopped reading most of the big sports media outlets so I don’t know how isolated those articles are.
But honestly, I could care less about how some blowhard that works for ESPN feels about Joe Paterno. What I care about is how Joe feels about himself, how his immediate family feels about him, and how his extended PSU family (that would be all of us) feels about him.
That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.
by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 17, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
At the risk of beating a dead horse
parsing his exact words probably misses the point.
I could absolutely hear my grandparents (or parents even) say, “I don’t know from such things,” meaning not that they don’t know about the existence of child rape, but that it is out of their realm of experience.
BTW, Sally Jenkins’s Q&A about the interview in yesterday’s WaPo, indicated that Joe was less than lucid in many parts of the interview.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
Yes, the Q&A explains a few things
Like I said, I don’t think you can take that statement literally.
I’m not just trying to excuse Joe for saying something obviously untrue. The context of the statement and everything else he said and did shows that he didn’t mean it that way.
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 17, 2012 10:31 AM EST reply actions
Why was it not enough for Paterno to follow up with McQuery multiple times?
Joe put Mike in the position to tell the Penn State administrator in charge of the UP Police what he saw, and then decided it was best if he stayed out of it, in large part due to potential conflicts of interest. But he still repeatedly give McQuery the opportunity to tell him if it wasn’t being handled properly. I cannot for the life of me understand why that was in any way insufficient action for Joe. No further alarm bells were rung, so no further action was taken.
You are describing the rational actions of a mere mortal,
not the demigod that is Joseph Vincent Paterno. Haven’t you read that so much more was expected of Joe, because he was omniscient, in charge of Centre County and all its minions, able to forecast the future and see what a shitstorm would develop, etc., etc., etc.?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Odds this thread gets slammed shut as well in the next 24 hours?
This whole damn place has come to a screeching halt in the last week or two. BSD has become trench warfare, with the occasional green recruit poking his head up to lob a grenade, only to get his brains smeared across the ground. Everyone is dug in like an Alabama tick. The only possible victory for either side is to exhaust the opposition into simply stop giving a shit.
I’ve also noticed that M1EK is like Mush from A Bronx Tale. A thread will pop up, typical banter will populate it, things will be going well. Then he’ll show up and the whole thing goes to shit. I’ve gotten to where I just scan a new thread looking to see if he’s posted, and if so, I just tear up my ticket and walk out before the race is over.
Consider this my official declaration of non-support of child molestation.
by 06Lion on Jan 17, 2012 1:01 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Thank you!
Everyone is dug in like an Alabama tick.
I ain’t got time to argue about Paterno, bleed.
I'm the XBOX to your Atari.
I'm growing very tired of these arguments as well.
I’ve stopped participating in them, with the exception above which I have ended after establishing my points. I truly wish we could have constructive dialogue instead of arguments. Just because one piece of someone’s post may not be correct does not mean the entire post is useless and wrong. Constructive dialogue would address the wrong pieces while expanding upon the correct ones, which would allow us all to benefit.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 17, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
Dammit, have I taught you guys nothing?
You don’t “lob grenades” anymore — you call in a Warthog strike to drop CBU’s (cluster bomb units).
That’s what many of us are doing here: Dropping cluster(f@#$) bomb units.
Personally, I engage in order to watch certain individuals twist themselves into knots with their use of sophistry. It reminds me of the times when my 5- and 3-year-old sons would try to deny raiding the cookie jar. Some of their explanations got very elaborate and fantastical — the same thing I see going on in these kinds of threads.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Personally, it makes no difference to me.
If you get something out of it, or if it’s beneficial in some form, I have no problem with it. I still find information and insights through those conversations that I wouldn’t have otherwise gained. I’ve personally grown tired of participating in them as I’m not trying to win an argument, I’m trying to learn and reason. Getting the response of “No” does not really help me in those endeavors.
I do understand why some people choose to consider argumentative threads to be war zones and wastelands. Personally, I’d greatly appreciate it more if people with dissenting opinions would be more explanatory in their opinions. I would really like to understand the reasoning behind their logic and understanding instead of just the opinion. It seems that is essentially what you’re trying to do, but we never get the full picture.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 17, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
You can't have an effective discussion if either party
feels that the only way you could disagree with them is if you are a delusional cultists strawman wagon circler.
Reasonable people can disgree over topics, without actual arguments occuring.
by FB6244 on Jan 17, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Or, as Colin Powell has said,
“Avoid getting into battles of wits with unarmed opponents.”
I have violated that good guidance on many of these threads . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah I do too.
Most of the time I just sit back and laugh at the crap, but sometimes I am weak.
<—— Walks away in shame.
I appreciate ya, man!
You have stayed above the fray — I personally have resorted to being snarky, if only to get a rise out of the uncivil, dogmatic, opinion-offerors.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 17, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
This will continue until one side decides that they don't want to be this guy...

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.
by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 17, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Yes...
we really needed another thread on this topic!
Sigh.
by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 17, 2012 1:29 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

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