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BOT interview with NYT and new column about Paterno

Maybe this has been rehashed too much, but there is a New York Times article with several board members talking about firing Spanier and Paterno. Also, Paul Davies has retracted some of his original statements about Paterno.

The BOT interview link is: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/19/sports/football/penn-state-trustees-recall-decision-to-fire-paterno.html?pagewanted=all?src=tp

and the column link is: http://blogs.phillymag.com/the_philly_post/2012/01/18/changed-mind-joe-paterno/


And even with the full links, this still wasn't long enough for a fanpost. But nobody reads the fanshots! I also may be ahead of the Success with Hyperlinking for tomorrow.

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Two thoughts

I love how the university still can’t get it straight whether Paterno was hired or not. Even the phrasing used in the phone conversation with Paterno is in doubt. Surma seems to think he said Paterno was no longer the football coach, while Paterno seems to think Surma “terminated” him. Considering no one actually uses the word “terminate” outside of corporate environments or Schwarzenegger references, I would tend to believe Paterno on this one.

Secondly, the more that comes out, the more it seems that Spanier was really the guy that hurt PSU the most (outside of Sandusky, obviously). At this point, I can’t tell if that is actually true, or if he is just going to be the school’s fall guy.

by VVeRPennState on Jan 19, 2012 12:12 AM EST reply actions  

Hired is supposed to be fired.

Freud would have a field day with that one.

by VVeRPennState on Jan 19, 2012 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

We knew that they thought he didn't do enough

or else he wouldn’t have been fired. We didn’t learn anything new from this really, and while the article does a decent job of humanizing the board members, it doesn’t change the hammer that falls at the end of it. Knowing exactly how Joe and Sue responded to the firing is pretty heartbreaking, regardless of how you feel about the firing itself.

"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."

by LAPSU on Jan 19, 2012 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

"humanizing the board members"

The same argument that was used against Paterno’s interview, that the reporter was hand-picked, that the interview was empty and soft, that it was a fluff piece to make people sympathetic towards him…that all applies very well to this article. It doesn’t matter that it was the NYTimes. Doesn’t the Board have some high connections with the Times? I seem to recall that being thrown around in the early days of this disaster. Wouldn’t be too hard to get their story out, making it look like they were just a toy boat out in the middle of a hurricane they did nothing to cause. Particularly interesting is the timing, days after Paterno’s first interview.

I particularly enjoy the muted characterization of Surma as white knight, riding into the chaos to remove Spanier and gain control of the situation.

Consider this my official declaration of non-support of child molestation.

by 06Lion on Jan 19, 2012 7:38 AM EST up reply actions  

There was either a current or former member of the BOT

Connected to the BOT. It was very similar to the Paterno article in that regard,

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Wouldn’t all former or current BoT members be connected to the BoT?

by 1LisHell on Jan 19, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I think he meant connected to the NYT.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Biggest disappointment

At this point, I don’t think anyone on either side is going to be able to convince someone on the other side that Joe did or did not do enough. My biggest disappointment in the article is that they said one of the reasons they fired Joe was because they thought he was trying to show up the board by leading “We are” chants in his front lawn. Maybe that was a poor choice on his part, but the guy is 84 (85?) years old with a mob outside cheering for him; it’s not like he invited the student body over for a pep rally.

Overall, I’m still angry with the board handled it — from having Fran Ganter be the one delivering the note to making Joe call in for his own dismissal to announcing it at 10 p.m. to the result of the “riots” (can someone explain why it’s continually used in the plural?). Someone on a previous post commented that if that’s the way they would treat someone with 61 years at the school who has done as much good as Paterno has, they’ll do it to anyone, and that’s not how you want to feel about your “leadership.”

by kflintosh on Jan 19, 2012 8:52 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Agree

So if he wouldn’t have led the cheer, he would not have been fired? Doubtful.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 19, 2012 9:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I completely agree

But people who didn’t like Paterno try to make it look bad for him.

by FB6244 on Jan 19, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I think they're talking about

when he went to practice tuesday afternoon – Scott was talking to the cameras, and, as he was getting into the car, Joe started a real “we are” cheer

but still – that’s about the weakest damn excuse – maybe if he’d called the accusers liars he’d still be coach

by PSUgirl on Jan 19, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

though now that I think about it

my timeline is wrong (that was after he was fired, so he couldn’t have been fired because of that), and PSUgirl is probably right.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 19, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

You may be right

Those days are a blur.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean maybe the Board is superimposing that chant into their past actions.

Again, memories can be funny like that, but the Board, if they actually talked about it at the meeting, would have had to have based it off of the prior chant, which could be perceived as tasteless, even if that’s not how Joe meant it to be (to be honest I don’t remember that scene that PSUgirl described).

Still, a lot of people bash Paterno for the We Are chant on his front lawn, and they are flat out wrong.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 19, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I distinctly remember him deflecting the attantion.

And then telling the kids to go study and get some sleep.

by Spats on Jan 19, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

RE: IIRC
Paterno joined in, and the last thing he said was "And we’ll always be Penn State".

And just when I think I’m done… I read that and get a lump in my throat again.

"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."

Joe Paterno

by The Heel on Jan 20, 2012 5:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Pretty sure Joe's statement that he released that afternoon

was what the BOT considered “challenging the board.” I doubt it was the “We Are” chants.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 19, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

From the article:

To some trustees, Paterno failed in not reporting to police what he had been told of Sandusky’s suspected assault. Some of the trustees were also upset that Paterno was seen leading "We are Penn State" cheers on his lawn with students and fans who had gathered after Sandusky’s arrest, which some board members viewed as insensitive.

I still don’t remember him leading those chants on his lawn except after his OWN firing…which I would presume was after the meeting to fire him…so either they’re retroactively using this as an excuse as to why they fired him, or just got misquoted in the paper, something is off here.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 19, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Tuesday Night

Was the first occasion of the “pep-rally” atmosphere in front of Joe’s house. That was before he was fired.

@Kunk7

by Kunk on Jan 19, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

insensitive ≠ challenging the BoT

by 1LisHell on Jan 19, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

we're talking about 2 different things it appears

I didn’t fully read what he had said and thought he meant that they were angry not because of the We Are chants, but because he was challenging the board. I was just trying to point out that they were actually mad at both.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 20, 2012 1:17 AM EST up reply actions  

My biggest disappointment in the article is that they said one of the reasons they fired Joe was because they thought he was trying to show up the board by leading "We are" chants in his front lawn.

I thought the problem with the chants is that the BoT viewed them as insensitive. The challenging the board’s authority was more a result of Paterno’s lawyer’s statement about and the retirement statement where Paterno said the BoT shouldn’t spend a minute considering Paterno’s status.

by 1LisHell on Jan 19, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah cause we now know that they didnt spend a minute considering the fact that there were FOUR grand juries

That looked into Sandusky and they had since May to “consider” them.

"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."

Joe Paterno

by The Heel on Jan 20, 2012 5:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I feel bad for Fran

Having to do that.

On the other hand, it suggests that interaction wasn’t as impersonal as previously reported. I can’t imagine Sue and Fran didn’t exchange meaningful looks.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

well, they said that he (Fran) didn't say a word.

Though this could also go to show how friendly Joe is/was with former assistants.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 19, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought...

I read that he did not socialize with assistants. Mostly just professional relationships.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 19, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but still

I got the impression that he was closer with Fran than most. Ganter is still the head of football ops, is he not? They worked together all the time right up until the end.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd imagine Fran had no words

If he truly knew the role he was playing

I am a Penn State Nittany Lion, and I played for the legendary Joe Paterno, and more importantly, I am a man because of it. - Lavar Arrington

by LegalLion on Jan 19, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree about Spanier, and while my opinion on him is biased from before this happened

as university president, it was his job to be suspicious when he had nothing to be suspicious about. So while he is undoubtedly a bit of a fall guy here, the fact remains that regardless of what information was brought before him, he should have been more diligent. Everyone should have been more diligent, for that matter, but the level of culpability decreases as you follow it down the chain from Spanier to McQueary, solely because of each individual’s role within the university (not their perceived role, but their actual university-dictated responsibilities).

Thanks for posting, Paige, I’ll now crawl back into my ’we’re not talking about this anymore’ hole.

"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."

by LAPSU on Jan 19, 2012 12:41 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

REALLY?!?

Who thought it was a good idea to use the word “Recall” in the title?

WE'RE DANCIN!!!

by bigs26 on Jan 19, 2012 12:59 AM EST reply actions  

Makes sense to me.

In the end, you lose, they win, no matter what. The people in power remain in power, the people below them take the fall. Sounds wonderful if you’re one of the few in power.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe the board,

as a roster of successful people responsible for large organizations, projected themselves into the situation Paterno (who was bigger than Spanier, organizationally) encountered. And they said, Wow, he got a report of child rape on campus from a direct report and he thought, “I shouldn’t interrupt (Sgt.) Schultz’s weekend?” You know, while a child was being allegedly destroyed for life by a favored member of the PSU executive group (e.g., a guy sitting with Spanier the week before he is indicted, years later).

So, as executives with responsibility for large organizations, and contemplating what happened, perhaps these board members said to themselves, “Are you kidding me?”

It doesn’t help that Joe Pa has been saying for three months, “I should have done more.” This is just a leetle bit beyond his other statements that say, “I had no idea what was going on and gee, do men and boys have sex? because I’m just an english major from Brown and I had no idea.”

Clearly, it’s a situation in which direct actors like Paterno have been victimized, and the BoT was out of line.

Carry on.

Logic, grammar and punctuation: much preferred!

by I_am_Querulous_Yellow on Jan 19, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I hate those things.

I get the first two right off the bat then struggle. The only saving grace is when it’s my wife’s celeb rag mag and there’s a hot broad in it.

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Jan 19, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I enjoy a good game of Erotic Photo Hunt

at a dive bar. It’s mostly great because none of them have updated any pictures since like 1994 apparently. I also like to call out what the difference is as I touch the screen

“EXPOSED AREOLA!”

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

This one is much easier though.

"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."

Joe Paterno

by The Heel on Jan 20, 2012 5:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I think

there’s a village in Connecticut missing one of its population

by BRJ75 on Jan 19, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

You're a fan of the cyclists who don't dope?

WHAT’S THE FUCKING POINT?!

I'm the XBOX to your Atari.

by WorldBFat on Jan 19, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Re: Saturday to Sunday before calling Curley

Joe didn’t mention it in his Grand Jury testimony, but he may have brought it up to the AG’s office – I’d bet that Joe’s first phone call after McQueary left his house was to either his lawyer or Scott. If I were in that position, my first move would be to find exactly what ‘by the book’ meant for me and follow it to the letter.

…and yeah, I’ve said several times that there was no immediate, ongoing crime to be stopped, so taking an extra day wasn’t nearly as big a deal as some people make it out to be.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 19, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I 100% believe Paterno spoke to a lawyer to find out what NOT to do.

Like

1. Approach Sandusky.
2. Do something that could possibly put an investigation in jeopardy.
3. Go outside of the chain of command with second hand information and possibly put himself in trouble with either/both the university and civil law.

Mike states that Joe followed up with him after it, but doesnt specify how many times. The fact that Mike gave him an answer that obviously satified Joe makes me think that Joe, on his part/in hindsight, did what he was supposed to do… and got fucked for it because other people didnt do what THEY were supposed to do.

"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."

Joe Paterno

by The Heel on Jan 20, 2012 5:34 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I actually don’t think it was high enough on Joe’s radar to call lawyers. Just a guess. BTW – tidbit from the Prelim hearings – Curley says that he followed up with Paterno.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 20, 2012 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

According to MM and Paterno, upon hearing the allegations Paterno is slumped in his chair. He’s shocked and saddened. He see’s how upset MM is. I believe Paterno’s testimony says that he told MM he had to make some calls and figure out how to handle it from there.

I dont remember Curley stating that he followed up with Paterno. If that is the case… wouldnt that further the possibility that Paterno would be justifiably satisfied that it was taken care of?

The thing that gets me is all of these clowns that (some) go as far as to wish death on Paterno for not going to the police with second hand information when the guy that reported it to him didnt feel enough urgency to immediately do ANYTHING. I know its been discussed to death, but I will never understand that.

"Publicity is like poison. It doesn't hurt unless you swallow it."

Joe Paterno

by The Heel on Jan 20, 2012 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Can't believe I did not see this before...

But according to Curley’s testimony at the prelim hearing: “Then, to the best of my recollection, I circled back around and informed the president of my actions and then Coach Paterno, Mr. McQueary. I guess that’s the people.”

Page 182.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 20, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

If he'd have called a lawyer, he would have done things differently.

If he would have called me, he would have called child protective services that day.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Like I said - or Scott...

I was thinking there would be three main possibilities – Scott, who would be most concerned with minimizing Joe’s involvement; University counsel, whose knee-jerk reaction would be to go absolutely by the book; or Joe’s (presumed) personal attorney, who would be very good at things like estate planning but would have hardly any experience in criminal law. Of those three options, only the presumed personal attorney would likely tell Joe to call protective services at all, let alone that day.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 20, 2012 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not criminal law.

It’s really family law. Any advice Joe Paterno got that wasn’t call CYF was faulty advice. Period. He wishes he’d done more, I wish he’d done that.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

...and I'd assume that any attorney who does estate planning would know family law.

I’m not saying that Joe likely got good advice from an attorney that didn’t include ‘call CYF’ – I’m saying that of the three people he’s most likely to consult on this matter, two of them have reason to give him bad advice.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 20, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't.

They are different specialties. But if somebody asks me a estate planning question I tell them that I don’t know the answer, and point them in the direction of somebody who does.

It’s funny, I’ve done nothing but Family Law for ten years, I probably know as much about estate planning as an average joe on the street.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Either way...

can we agree that Scott is in no position to make objective decisions regarding his own father, and the University counsel is likely concerned with keeping this in-house?

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 20, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I have no idea what Scott's expertise is.

And the University counsel is the University’s counsel. She would have had an ethical obligation not to advise Joe Paterno in that situation, because their interests (the University’s and Paterno’s) might have been adverse to each others

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

One other thing.

I know with absolute certainty that Cynthia Baldwin knows family law. Her lead law clerk when she was on the Supreme Court was one of the most brilliant people I’ve ever met, and she did the vast majority of her work researching complex family law issues two offices down from me for three years.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

That is true.

I have no idea who the general counsel for the university was in 2002.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Wendell Courtney

He was also the general counsel for the Second Mile.

by ppfcpp on Jan 20, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

That is bad.

But I think he denied that he was counsel for both.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh, that's somewhat misleading

he wasn’t the official counsel, but he did “periodic advising, some pro bono, some paid.” I’m not sure if the Second Mile had an official counsel at the time.

He also says that he was never informed about either the 1998 or the 2002 incidents. He said that had he been contacted, he would have told them to go to the police immediately.

Source

by ppfcpp on Jan 20, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

It's hard to believe

But apparently a lot of big universities didn’t bother to have in-house counsel until fairly recently. CB only came on in ’09 or ’10 after some internal review suggested it might be a good idea.

I believe that if a lawyer was in on the 2002 shit, none of this would have gone the way it has. He or she would have seen the potential liability, if nothing else.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 21, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

This is CYA

By the board. These rats know that the ship is sinking. When we vote on a new BOT, there will be a whole slew of new faces. This is them trying to reason with us. FAIL.

Losing a game is heartbreaking. Losing your sense of excellence or worth is a tragedy.

by 87Townie on Jan 19, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Block quote fail...

Here is the full text:

The trustees also laid out what they said were three key reasons for firing Paterno: his failure to do more when told about the alleged sexual assault in 2002; what they regarded as his questioning of the board’s authority in the days after Sandusky’s arrest; and what they determined to be his inability to effectively continue coaching in the face of ongoing questions surrounding the program.

*

by Smee on Jan 19, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

No.

This has got to stop.

they wanted Paterno to break the rules

There is nothing in the rules that says Paterno couldn’t have followed up or gone outside the chain of command as long as he also reported it up within the chain of command. The people who say otherwise are lying or ignorant, because they have been corrected here dozens of times.

There was no law or rule preventing Paterno from calling whatever police he felt like at any time between when McQueary reported to him and this very day.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No, we're not.

This is to everyone, not Artie or M1EK, or anyone in specific. These topics, while interesting, are going to begin to be reigned in a bit. We rehash the same debates and the same name-calling sub-threads. This one appears to be OK so far, so please keep it above water.

This is no one’s AND everyone’s fault. The subject matter lends itself to hotly contested issues and deeply held values and beliefs. No one is being specifically punished (unless warranted), but the threads have been getting too contentious recently, and it’s going to slow down or stop, very soon.

by Jeff Junstrom on Jan 19, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Trying to keep the discussion poignant on the BoT here

that’s why I asked if we’re going to argue about the same tired subject (I don’t want to).

by Artiefufkin10 on Jan 19, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting.

“…no one’s AND everyone’s fault …” I guess this is a derivation of the “I was just taking orders and following the employee manual and doing my job” defense. Do I have that right?

I mean, if we’re going to follow orders and follow the employee manual and all, it’s pretty silly to not expect collateral damage. Such as the lives of child rape victims.

Logic, grammar and punctuation: much preferred!

by I_am_Querulous_Yellow on Jan 19, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

If you are going to come here and troll

atleast try to resond to an appropriate comment. That particular one had nothing to do with the scandal, but about the bickering between posters on the board.

by FB6244 on Jan 19, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Nonsense, I like the cut of his jib.

“bickering between posters on the board” eh?

It was my understanding that the board acted unanimously to fire Joe Paterno.

I'm the XBOX to your Atari.

by WorldBFat on Jan 19, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Posters on the board: "don't bring us into this!"

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Got it, thanks.

Quoting the moderator of this board, who discusses the scandal as “everyone’s and no one’s fault”, has “nothing to do with the scandal.”

Check.

Logic, grammar and punctuation: much preferred!

by I_am_Querulous_Yellow on Jan 19, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I have an erection.

I'm the XBOX to your Atari.

by WorldBFat on Jan 19, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Congratulations, I guess.

Logic, grammar and punctuation: much preferred!

by I_am_Querulous_Yellow on Jan 19, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Geez, no need to get snarky.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah really, just FYI.

Although congratulations, if sincere, are usually in order for that kind of thing.

I'm the XBOX to your Atari.

by WorldBFat on Jan 19, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

"This" = the moderators' reigning in of comments

Czech.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Can you believe Rob Lowe?!

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Gonna have to agree with you there

“Breaking the rules” =/= “Breaking standard procedure”

That is true as far as it goes.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Has anyone looked into this?

I’m really not trying to fan the flames of debate, I’ve tried to avoid them as much as possible, so I’m thinking I may have missed it.

I’m asking because my mother works in a nursing home. If she witnesses abuse, she is to report it to her supervisor. If she alerts authorities, she is subject to being fired and facing legal consequences. I’m not sure if this applies in the academic world as well, but it’s something I’d like to know.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

Repeatedly. People have looked into it, and have been told, repeatedly, that this claim is not true. You are in no legal jeopardy for calling the cops. And, to be frank, you’re ALWAYS in jeopardy of losing your job in most places in this country – so, yes, theoretically, you could be fired for calling the cops – but you could also be fired because the boss doesn’t like your shirt.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Partly true

I agree that it’s a stretch to believe one could get fired for going to the cops, but I can understand why Joe might think he should talk to these other guys first.

I work with a youth group. We’ve discussed this a lot. I was told that if I hear about something like this, I should first report it to the professionals (the people who actually work for the church, I’m just a volunteer). But then they will go with me to talk to the police if it appears to be something that might need the police.*

They don’t want me as a volunteer to go the kids house and try to “take care of it” with his parents nor do they want a volunteer to say the wrong thing to the kid (for example, "yes, I’ll keep this a secret.) They want to be kept in the loop. Fortunately, the SC chief of police goes to our church so we can talk to him directly and he’s good with this sort of thing.

*I would count McQuery’s story, with or without the rape that he didn’t see, as worthy of police inquiry. I can see why Joe might not have, since McQuery wasn’t very explicit, but I don’t see why McQuery himself didn’t get that nor do I understand how Schultz couldn’t have seen that.

If anything, its best to err on the side of caution when deciding when to tell the cops something.

Perhaps Paterno just doesn’t trust university police. Not sure why.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It's the supoosed "not following up," I think

I think they would say that it wasn’t the initial decision to tell Schultz and Curley, but the fact that he didn’t push them on it more that bothers them.

Also, he could have called PSU’s chief of police to ask about the disposition of the case. I don’t know if that would have helped any kids, but that would have covered his ass, to use the formal legal term, more completely.

The “Chain of Command” is a bit unclear here, I think. On the one hand, the AD is technically above Joe, but Joe could always go directly to Spanier with stuff, could he not? Football is different than the other sports in that it is so important to fundraising and what not. Spanier would be more likely to take a call from Joe than, say, Erica Walsh.

Where Schultz fits into the “chain” is not at all clear. Is he between the AD and the president? Given the high-profile of PSU sports (not just football, but especially football) It would probably make more sense if the AD was responsible directly to the president, since sports have so much influence on “the brand.”

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I would agree

That by the way the Charter sets up the relationship between the President and Board, it’s part of Spanier’s job description to be the goat in this type of situation.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

And that he lasted as long as he did in that position

is really pretty incredible.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Not only that...

My understanding was that it was next stop Ivy League for him. He was highly respected in academic circles as an administrator. As was Tim Curley. Those two guys were not nobodies in their professions.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

BTW – Schultz testified that Curley reported to him for day to day matters. Not sure exactly what that meant, but I found it interesting.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 19, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I would not call it supposed.

According to Curley’s sworn testimony, Curley followed up with Paterno and McQueary after the course of action was decided. McQueary’s sworn testimony collaborates Curley’s in this regard. Paterno also followed up with McQueary according to the testimony.

by cs93 on Jan 19, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

But the Philly Post sort of makes up for it

Great find, Paige. The few comments posted so far have also been intelligent – we’ll see if that lasts

by cs93 on Jan 19, 2012 1:15 AM EST reply actions  

I don't read the comments! LOL!

"Paige your Auburn opinions dont count unless its with regard to making fun of Roof!" - skarocksoi

by Paige2PSU on Jan 19, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

You should . . .

There’s an interesting link buried there. I’ll repeat it here.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Jan 19, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks!

"Paige your Auburn opinions dont count unless its with regard to making fun of Roof!" - skarocksoi

by Paige2PSU on Jan 19, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

phillymag.com nails it!! AG and Corbett Responsible.

phillymag.com write Walter Uhler nails the issue. The GJ report is, in my opinion, slanderous. MM, Curley, Shultz and Joe’s testimonies are inconsistent with the GJ report. This is a cluster from day one. What recourse does PSU have aginst the state to claim monetary and punitive damages and what recourse do the alumni and citizens of PA have against the state, besides voting them out?

PSU never should have been the focus of this; the real target should have been The Second Mile, that was were Sandusky was allegedly finding his victims. I think that is why PSU was blindsided.

The BOT article is a load of crap. CYA time everyone. After 61 years you felt that Joe didn’t deserve the respect of a face to face meeting. You were suprised by the story? I heard that Pittsburgh sports shows were talking about the GJ in 3/11. Being a trustee requires some effort. I’m sure you all have the resources to get all media stories regarding PSU. There are services that mine media reports everyday, easy to set-up. Being a trustee is not a hobby.

Corbett has to go.

by PsuSam on Jan 19, 2012 2:25 AM EST reply actions  

Can you find a report that was talking about alleged incidents on PSU campuses?

I read about the GJ report earlier in the year too, but my recollection was that they revolved around the high school student, Sandusky, and the Second Mile. The only connection to PSU at that time was that Sandusky was the former star assistant coach. I’ve never seen anything that implicated Penn State until the GJ presentment was released.

From a BoT perspective, it’s their job to act on the recommendations of the President on these matters, unless they had some reason to believe that the President was incapable of doing his job, or they had additional information beyond what the President could provide. It’s naive to think that executives go out of their way to check the work of other executives without an obvious reason to doubt that other executive.

If Spanier came to them in May of 2011 and reiterated what was in the news reports in March of 2011, that Sandusky was being investigated for child sexual abuse because of allegations made by a high school student off campus, and never said ANYTHING about the 2002 incident or that line of questioning, then the total lack of preparation and a lack of a message to combat the media firestorm is on him. Period.

by SkellerDweller06 on Jan 19, 2012 8:38 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

One thing I can’t wrap my brain around is how somebody on the board, outside of Curley, Schultz, and Spanier, could not have heard about the 2002 incident prior to the grand jury report. It is not unreasonable to suggest Curley, Spanier, and Schultz interacted on a weekly, if not daily, basis with board members. Even if just forwarding chain emails. I find it hard to believe that not once did they happen to drop in a comment of "hey, there was this thing with Sandusky the other day…" And none of them heard about the supposed ban on Sandusky bringing children on campus prior to the grand jury report? None of them knew of the 95 page police report from ’98? I find the claim that they were as blindsided as the general public to be a big steaming pile of dung. And if they truly didn’t know, then they need to be removed from their positions for gross incompetence.

Consider this my official declaration of non-support of child molestation.

by 06Lion on Jan 19, 2012 8:55 AM EST up reply actions  

It did say that Garban and JoePa were drinking buddies

Why didn’t Joe run ever say to him “hey man, Spanier talk to you about that Sandusky stuff yet?”

How many of these guys were on the board in 1998? 2002?

How often to the CEO’s/Executives that sit on these boards get out and interact with the players in the organization that they’re overseeing outside of scheduled meetings?

Why wouldn’t the local board members who have a long and personal history with PSU, guys like like Suhey and Garban, have worked to have a better plan in place pre-Nov. 5 if they had really heard of the PSU connection?

by SkellerDweller06 on Jan 19, 2012 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Also, it's ridiculous to assume that the Board of Trustees should somehow have known about the 2002 incident without Spanier telling him

None of us, with all of our focus and interest and devotion to the football program at PSU, had ever heard anything about it until Nov. 5. This was NOT some whispered secret around campus.

Seriously, if Spanier/Curley/Schultz/Paterno/MM don’t share this with the Board, there is no reasonable way for the board to know about this.

The board HAD to rely on the University President to make this known to them, or on some chance that some other person would come and tell them. They aren’t supposed to be “running” the University. That’s Spanier’s job. The Board’s job is to help navigate the overall course of the University, in conjunction with the President, Faculty, and Alumni Association.

by SkellerDweller06 on Jan 19, 2012 9:07 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Agree with much of this

The logic that says that the BoT had to have known about this prior to the release of GJ presentment is the same logic that says that Joe had to have known about the 1998 incident, or that members of the previous coaching staff (that feels weird to type) had to have heard rumors about the 2002 incident. I don’t subscribe to the latter points of view so I can’t really subscribe to the former.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

There is a difference as members of the BOT did know about this incident and did know about the investigation. They just never brought it up to everyone else.

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Not true

Article was posted here on BSD in MARCH 2011.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 19, 2012 9:34 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes.

It was about allegations that had nothing to do with the 2002 incident.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

True enough, but if it was in the local press and posted on at least two blogs (I saw it on BSD and 11W), it should have at least peaked the curiosity of the board members to look into a little more. While I wouldn’t say they were willfully ignorant, there were enough clues that they could have asked some questions.

Perhaps the board should read BSD more regularly.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 19, 2012 10:35 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

While some may not have liked the BSD transition from Mike to Chris

I think we can mostly agree that the ability to curse in the comments has been very therapeutic the past 2+ months.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 19, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Shit yes!

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 19, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

fuckin' A

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Jan 19, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

ZING....ouch

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Jan 19, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

The Red Dragon ordered a number 37 with a side of pork fried snap!

Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Yes, I am on twitter.

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Jan 23, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

There is a link to that post in a recent post.

The general feeling on BSD, was pretty much what Spanier said, sounds like a Second Mile problem. The few people who thought this was going to be a really big deal were angrily shouted down.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

"angrily shouted down"

That’s unpossible. Here? Unpopular opinions? Shouted down? No way.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Baloney.

Not by you. By others. I’m just more resistant to the shouting than most.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I recall some others..

who were outside the larger BSD community doing some trolling, but don’t remember anybody really bein shouted down. You remain quite vocal

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 19, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you're being way too charitable

to your fellow travellers. Many have attempted to shout down.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm probably too charitable by nature.

People, in general, are calmer than they were 2 months ago.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 19, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I readily admit to (semi-)respectfully asking you to shut up...

but I do not recall anyone ever attempting to shout you down. Had they done so, I would not have felt compelled to see what effect asking you to shut up would have.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 19, 2012 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, come on.

You really want to go here? You could just say “yeah, I saw it, and they were right to try to shout you down”.

But you really want to go there?

I already said it didn’t work with me because I’m stubborn – but if you didn’t see an attempt here by certain commenters to shout down certain points of view, you’re not paying very much attention.

by M1EK on Jan 20, 2012 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying this to be petty - I really mean it:

When I try to read anything you’ve written lately, I get an unbearable buzzing sensation in my head. Part of me would like to know what makes you tick, but I don’t want to waste your time by having you try to explain when I’m not going to read your response anyway. …and as much as I try to ignore anything you post here, sometimes it’s just too much fun to poke the bear.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 20, 2012 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I really mean this:

That’s a really shitty thing to write, and its only purpose is, in fact, to do the equivalent of shouting down an opinion with which you disagree, but don’t have the chops to actually take on.

You must be very proud of yourself.

by M1EK on Jan 20, 2012 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I have had no

problem interacting with M1EK though I can see why others have. I don’t disagree with you per se, but M1EK has dialed it back. He’s part of the BSD community.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 20, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

he's dialed back a bit on the offensive

but put it all into the defensive. If I didn’t know better I’d start thinking M1EK was the biggest martyr the world had ever known.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 20, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I think JuggerNitt

forgot to use the sarcasm font.

"Paige your Auburn opinions dont count unless its with regard to making fun of Roof!" - skarocksoi

by Paige2PSU on Jan 20, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't be nearly as irritated by him

If he would just make a fanpost and keep those arguments there. I’m really getting sick of 500 comment threads where 450 of them are M1EK vs BSD. At this point we all know his argument (that anything shy of Joe calling in the x-men to take care of Sandusky wasn’t enough) and he knows ours (ranging from Joe is a saint to fire everyone). Nothing is gained from those arguments.

by ppfcpp on Jan 20, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure

As long as you make sure you apply this standard to everybody. At which point there are no comment threads at all.

If you don’t want to be argued with, don’t post something that is arguable. Quite simple.

by M1EK on Jan 20, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

aurabass is a big boy...

and can defend himself. I said he was better, I didn’t say he was perfect.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 20, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Well I disagree.

I think he has gotten much worse recently since his buddy has started to have a problem with aurabass too and anothe rmod asked everyone to calm down.

by FB6244 on Jan 20, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes I can defend myself

but I am appreciative of any assistance with this guy.
It would be a full time job trying to sort out the crazy absurd misstatements he makes about my posts and positions

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 20, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

and 500 recs to this post

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 20, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

1000 Recs to this post

if I only could

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 20, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with pretty much 100% of this

But would it have really been that hard for the board to talk to Joe before he released that statement, or even immediately after, in order to impress upon him the seriousness of the situation and to try to convince him to voluntarily step aside? It wouldn’t even have to be be the full board, and it wouldn’t even have to be in person.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

This is what I wish they would have done

And this is the real miskate they made. But, now you’re asking the board to act very rationally as they woke up to the house burning down around them. They didn’t. They acted emotionally and on the fly.

So if we hate the BoT for anything, it’s for not trying to get Joe to reconsider retiring instead of firing him. But Joe walked himself to the edge…the BoT pushed him over.

by SkellerDweller06 on Jan 19, 2012 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Lubrano had stated that Paterno asked to speak to Surma the night after the Sandusky arrest, and that Surma refused. This seems to be at odds with the NYT story, so I am not sure which is correct.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 19, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

That jumped out at me as well

Then again, per the BoT standing orders, technically Paterno couldn’t meet directly with them anyway. Would be interesting to get Lubrano’s comments on the NYT story. Philly media, where are you?
/crickets

by danpsu97 on Jan 19, 2012 10:52 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I never heard this

It just makes me angrier at how the BoT handled everything after the story broke.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I can't remember where I heard about that

If it was in an article or at the town hall. I’ll research this.

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Lubrano

has stated it, I believe.

by FB6244 on Jan 19, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Lubrano is the only source. He’s been talking to Joe more than most people. I would assume he got that info from Joe and at the moment I have no reason to believe he is lying (even if he’s a little wierd…..)

http://www.centredaily.com/2012/01/13/3050971/lubrano-psu-long-sought-paterno.html

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

He says Joe "attempted to meet with the board"

but he doesn’t say when, other than after the news broke. The implication is that it was immediately after the news broke, but it could also have been after he was fired. Do you know if was ever more specific?

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

At the town hall (which is where I must be remembering this) Joe sent a message to the BOT requesting a meeting saying somehting along the lines of “we have a situation here”

I believe Surma replied back denying the request.

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

FOUND IT! Finally!

http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2012/1/12/2704019/blow-by-blow-of-philadelphia-town-hall#88558821

Correction to previous statement: Surma isn’t mentioned – must have been how I pictured it in my head.

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

the University’s culpability ends with their old association with Sandusky.

Who’s to say it doesn’t? Still no victim #2, and Sandusky argues that it’s all a misunderstanding. They also said that Spanier said that the brunt of this would likely hit the Second Mile, which while in hindsight was wildly incorrect, would have been a logical assumption to make.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Unfortunately, that's not really a fact being disputed (except besides Sandusky and Amendola)

The PSU contingent is in trouble for failure to act appropriately when notified of the possibilty of a sexual molestation of a child. Even if that never happened, it won’t make the dog and pony show that followed go away.

by SkellerDweller06 on Jan 19, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree that it was logical for Spanier to interpret it how he did

Spanier wasn’t an idiot. There was really no indication from his questioning that this was going to expand and include charges against PSU administrators. Now, if he were a very savvy risk manager, he might have freaked out at the mere possibility, and maybe he should have. But he wasn’t really off-base with the way he approached it. I bet almost everyone on the Board would have done the same.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

And if there is one silver lining...

maybe the reason he didn’t manage the risk better is because he hasn’t had to regularly deal with crises of anywhere near this magnitude.

It is pretty safe to say that Spanier isn’t an idiot, but he certainly appears to have misjudged this situation from beginning to end. Assuming what he was told by Curley/Schultz was true, he probably did think PSU was in the clear and had done its due diligence. After all, if we didn’t have Mike McQueary saying he told Curley/Schultz more than they told Spanier, PSU would be in the clear.

Again, PSU’s troubles all boil down to the fact that what Mike McQueary claims he told Curley/Schultz is not at all how they appeared to have interpreted it (for whatever reason). I fail to believe that if Curley/Schultz were purposely covering this up to protect PSU that they wouldn’t have ensured that Spanier was more prepared for the hammer to fall. If they knew their testimony was contradicting McQueary (and I doubt McQueary gave his testimony in front of them or that they gave their testimony in front of one another), they either would have changed their testimony or would have been aware that they might face perjury charges. The fact that they both seem to agree on what they were told, assuming they didn’t testify in front of one anohter, actually makes their story quite a bit more credible (unless you start with the assumption that they were actively colluding to cover this up). I’m more comfortable concluding that all of these guys, from Paterno up through Spanier, really thought they had acted appropriately (thus Spanier’s statement of support for Curley/Schultz) and that this WAS a Second Mile problem the GJ was investigating. One could definitely still argue this is a Second Mile problem considering how many of the victims were not abused at PSU (most of them) and how many of the victims are from the Second Mile (100%).

And I think we all need to remember the whole “hindsight” issue. If you assume for just a moment that this was not a coordinated cover-up, most of these people were making decisions in a vacuum of knowledge about what others were doing and saying.

Saying that Spanier didn’t inform the board absolves them of some of the guilt of not being prepared, but it doesn’t remove the fact that they responded slowly, reacted without carefully collecting all data, and poorly responded to the press in a way that did nothing to help PSU’s image.

by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 19, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm in agreement that Spanier handled it wrong

But I think people are being a little extra hard on him for everything. I mean, he had a lot of responsibility in that position, for everyone on the entire campus. He had to delegate a lot of different things, and couldn’t micromanage what all of his administrators were doing or doubt and double-check everything he was told. He should have probably been more diligent with something as serious as this matter, but my reaction is more “damn, really wish he’d done more there” than “HOW COULD HE NOT HAVE DONE MORE!”

If Paterno’s failure was at least partially due to his trust in those above him in the chain, Spanier’s was equally due to his trust in those below him.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Do not agree.

This should, in 2002 or 2008 or 2011, been obvious as a scandal that could cause huge damage to the football program even if Sandusky was never shown to have done anything on campus.

IE, best case scenario, it’d be something they’d have to talk about for a very long time. We all know the worst case scenario, which, again, should have been obvious to him.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree to disagree

I think without the benefit of hindsight, it was not as blatantly obvious as you believe. It’s fine though, I’m happy to leave it at that.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree with you here.

I don’t think the scandal was obvious, especially because based on the actual information, and not the inflammatory grand jury report, Penn State’s role in this is minimal.

I personally find little fault with Spanier in this regard. Where I place the majority of the blame is in the lack of response once the news story broke. Penn State had 48 hours to control the situation and they waited until the hysteria grew too large. The majority of the speculation started being reported on Monday, and if Penn State would’ve handled it better over the weekend, it might not have turned into the shitstorm it became. There’s no way of knowing for sure, but it seems like the lasting effects of this will be the effects from the misinformation and not from the actual facts.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Conflation

I said that the worst case scenario – meaning connection to the football program – should have been obvious as something that had to be investigated thoroughly – not that the scandal itself should have been obvious.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree

A good PR flak and a good lawyer is suspicious when they have no reason to be.

Even if Sandusky had done all of this far away, there’d still be enough a blow-back that they should have been trying to deal with it.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

And the Second Mile

and Dr.Jack Raykovitz should have been the ones to deal with it. Sandusky was their paid consultant and the kids were all their responsibility

And until someone can show why that was not the best solution for Curley and Schultz I have to believe it was. They had no reason to believe the Attorney General would focus on Penn State with a Presentment full of lies based on 3 slapping sounds and 2 second glances of Sandusky’s back.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 20, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree...

If this came up in 2002 and then either Paterno, Schultz, Curley etc. went to the police and it was investigated, there would have been 0 scandal.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 19, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem is the scandal was manufactured in 2011.

There was no scandal until the grand jury presentment came out. There were statements in that presentment that were false, and those are the sources for the “scandal”. I think it’s fair to say that had the reality of 1998 or 2002 been discovered, it would’ve resulted in bad press for the university. It would not have been a scandal. The alleged scandal was based on the alleged cover-up by PSU administration in their blanket denial that they were informed of MM witnessing the act of a boy being raped in the shower. The only place that is alleged is in the grand jury presentment and it has been proven false by several testimonies.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

and technically,

there is still no crime to have been reported in 02. There is nothing that JS will be found guilty of from 02 unless the prosecution finds a victim.

I just read.

by BMAN13 on Jan 19, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Buckle up for that Shit Storm.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I just don’t see where the prosecution won’t drop any charges to JS pertaining to victim 2. The amount of doubt that a crime was committed could really hurt their case in other instances of he said/he said, at least from where I sit in my engineering cube.

I just read.

by BMAN13 on Jan 19, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

They should be smart enough to see the

damage that will be done by trying to convict on Victim 2 without a victim. But then again they were dumb enough to put the outright lie in the Presentment.

But the defense attorneys already have enough “on the record under oath” to impeach McQueary. He’s already made the reasonable doubt because he has said “I’m not 100% certain” That means reasonable doubt.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 20, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

All I was really trying to say is that...

Spanier does deserve some blame, but most of the trouble for Joe and for Spanier seems to have resulted from their trust in Curley/Schultz to act appropriately to whatever MM was telling them.

Judged against what we now see from the GJ presentment it does not appear that they acted appropriately and Joe and Spanier’s trust seems misguided (and at worst, willfully ignorant). OR, MM’s testimony is not accurate.

If MM’s testimony contradicting McQueary/Schultz is unknown to Spanier until the GJ presentment (and I think that a reasonable assumption), then I don’t really fault him for not being prepared for the magnitude of the scandal. Again, if Spanier trusted Curley/Schultz, he knew they testified about their role, but thought that he actually did know everything there was to know about the 2002 incident (everything MM told Curley/Schultz), then he really didn’t have much reason to worry.

If MM had testified to the same thing as Curley/Schultz when they called him to the GJ, there wouldn’t be a Victim #2 or perjury charges. Mike McQueary’s testimony, which I have come to doubt pretty heavily* but that apparently the GJ thought was plausible, is the ONLY reason PSU’s administration and coaches are in trouble for any of this.

I know he’s an eye witness to something, and that something is (IMO) very likely what the GJ presentment says it was, but I strongly doubt the stroy he told the PSU administration was as clear as he is representing. That is the easiest explanation for why 4 very smart people simultaneously made very bad decisions that they then compounded by failing to realize how deep the shit was that they were standing in even after everyone knew there was a trial.

*FWIW, I think he unconsciously re-evaluated the interpretation of 10-year-old memories in light of overwhelming new evidence that paints his initial reaction very unfavorably. This is a mix of biases related to how people remember past decisions, how easily information can be filled in to old memories, and how our knowledge about the motivations of people’s actions actually influence our memory of those actions. I’m glad to debate the psychology of this, but I tend to think actions do speak as loud or louder than words… and Mike McQueary did not act like he was sure of what he witnessed (e.g., he didn’t call the cops right away, Dranov’s comments, his watered down explanation to Joe, Curley and Schultz claiming they got a watered down version, McQueary never insisting on more of a response from the administration when he learned what their response was, McQueary never broaching that subject with Joe to get his help in getting more of a response even when Joe asked if he was ok with what happened, etc.).

by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 19, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Really stretching here

Paterno’s own sworn testimony shows enough to make a strong case for perjury and for an institutional failure to act appropriately. You do not need to go into McQueary’s testimony to know this.

Also, Spanier should have, as an administrator with a brain in his head, interviewed everybody with any connection to the football prorgram in any way, shape, or form when the GJ became known (not when the presentment was released).

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Wrong on perjury

You absolutely need McQueary’s conflicting testimony. Paterno’s testimony couldn’t conflict C&S testimony to the point that it could be considered “lying under oath” because he wasn’t even in the room to hear the things that they are accused of lying about.

“Institutional failure to act appropriately” is pretty much a given, with or without almost any single person’s testimony here.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Conflation again

Paterno was viewed as more credible than Schultz and Curley too (in addition to MM). He testified he was told “fondling, or something of a sexual nature”.

“rape” is not necessary to make Curley and Schultz guilty of perjury.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait, what?

There would have to be evidence that Curley and Schultz lied under oath to bring perjury charges.

It doesn’t matter what Paterno said he was told, since Curley and Schultz weren’t there when he was told that. And he wasn’t there when they were told what they were told. Without McQueary’s testimony, any charge of perjury would have been thrown out immediately.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Refresh my memory

Wasn’t Paterno at the meeting with Curley and Schultz? It’s been a long day after a sleepless night so I might be misremembering now.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Not the one with McQueary

He talked to Curley and Schultz to set up the meeting with McQueary, but wasn’t there when Mike said whatever he said to them. It’s an important detail.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough

Withdrawn. McQueary’s testimony is necessary. I still find easily plausible explanations for the small gaps between the various so-called “versions” of his story. And at the preliminary hearing, those gaps got smaller, not larger.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No problem

It’s not a big deal to mix things up every now and then.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

My concerns are not about the relatively small differences between his story now and...

his story a year ago (or whatever it was) when he testified. My concerns regarding McQueary’s testimony and why I think it is so drastically different from Curley/Schultz is that I think his story was revised around the time he found out that there was a police investigation that he needed to worry about (at least a little bit) and a list of other victims (which he bears some responsibility for). And I’m not saying I think MM very consciously decided to revise history. I think learning of new victims might make one more certain about what one actually saw… and becoming more certain about what one might have seen is more likely to make one “remember” how they “would have” reacted in the situation.

I actually think it quite telling that McQueary used “I would have” and “I wouldn’t have” so many times in his testimony. If you remember what you actually did, you say, “I did this.”

I understand we’re asking about something that is 10 years old and I doubt anyone remembers really well exactly what happened, but that is my point. I think MM and Curley/Schultz memories are so different because they had different experiences of the whole thing and incredibly different optimal ways to self-preserve when they encountered the investigation.

Again, I’m not sure any of this is conscious. Like I said, there are a lot of different memory biases.

by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 20, 2012 2:55 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

When you read

what Paterno testified as to what McQueary told him, it is not the large gap that certain people allege – it is a very small gap, easily explainable as McQueary has said, by not wanting to get into details with Paterno.

Paterno should have suggested that he get into those details, IMO, but the fact that MM didn’t is consistent with the entire story.

Again, the GJ found McQueary and Paterno more credible than Curley and Spanier. Note that the GJ did not hear the presentment; they heard the actual testimony of all concerned. Including Paterno, telling them what McQueary had told him.

For weeks now, certain people here have engaged in a campaign of obfuscation – trying to blame the supposedly biased and inaccurate presentment for everything, but that has nothing at all to do with these charges. Or with the fact that they weren’t thrown out at the preliminary hearing, as those same people assured us they would be.

It’s wishful thinking, nothing more, to assume that McQueary’s story has several very different versions and that it’s the reason we’re where we are. It’s not true, at all.

by M1EK on Jan 20, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Not true.

You may think it inaccirate. After hearing MM’s testimony in the preliminary hearing, I found the “gaps” in versions of stories to shrink, not grow; and found the presentment to be an adequate (short) summary of the testimony given. Not ideal, but sufficiently accurate for its purpose.

If you tie yourself too closely to this idea that the GJP is a lie, you are associating yourselves with people who were proven wrong two or three times by the preliminary hearing.

by M1EK on Jan 20, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

No stretch at all BNittsDeMilo

It’s pretty simple really
and despite of the attempts to confuse the issue the elements are clear.
We have a definitive 3 slapping sounds that become "rhythmic and sexual" in the mind of MM – and once a decent defense lawyer gets into him will never stand up as either rhythmic or sexual
We have 2 1 or 2 second glances of Sandusky’s back with no view of hands or privates. – and once a decent defense lawyer goes to cross he will tear him up on his suspicions based on that.
We have little or no movement
We have NO PAIN
We have "not 100% certain
We have no action to interfere and we have him not bothering to ask the boy if he needs help or coming back to check on him
all of that is a defense attorney’s wet dream.
and he can suspect all he wants or talk about ’extremely sexual" all he wants but the lawyers will kill him on the brevity of his glances and his ACTIONS.
This TRAIN has left the station like a bullet train in the Chunnel and it rides those rails to total destruction of this witness.
and we have not even gotten into his variety of statements to his Father, Dr Dranov, Paterno and Curley & Schultz
These perjury charges are lost before the battle even begins
And last but far from least we HAVE NO VICTIM 2
This is far too simple for any decent defense attorney and MM’s testimony will be totally worthless after cross.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 20, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

BTW – not a definitive 3 slapping sounds. In the Curley/Schultz prelim, McQueary said 2 or 3.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 20, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Stop right here
There were statements in that presentment that were false

There are statements in the presentment that certain people are claiming were false.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I think what they are referring to is the very graphic description

in regards to Victim 2 that stated McQueary saw anal intercourse and some description of the boy being pressed up against a wall. Based on McQueary’s testimony at the hearing for Curley and Schultz, he stated that he did not see that, but assumed that with the sounds he heard and a man and young boy in a shower standing close together, that something of a sexual nature has occurred.

To me, the presentment was very liberal and graphic with it’s summary in regards to McQueary’s testimony for shock and awe value. Not saying it was false, just very overstretched.

by mleepsu08 on Jan 19, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct.

The statement says the graduate experience witnessed anal intercourse. NO ONE has made that assertion. McQueary believes that is what was happening when he encountered Sandusky in the shower, but not even he is claiming to have actually seen rape. The presentment doesn’t leave it ambiguous, it definitively states the GA witnesses rape.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

And "false" is a false characterization.

The presentment is a summary, and I found the summary quite supportable by the testimony that has been released. Not only that, but the people who were absolutely positive MM’s so-called conflicting statements would result in perjury charges getting thrown out in the preliminary hearing were proven false themselves as he explained quite a bit of the supposed discrepancies and was very credible in doing so.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's stop this debate right here.

Time will tell, we won’t accomplish anything right now. Agree to disagree until future actions are taken.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct.

Nevertheless, the same posters who are now insisting the presentment had “false statements” were positive the charges would be thrown out at the preliminary hearing (because of other supposedly false statements that were later shown to be true).

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not one of them

I never thought they’d be thrown out (I hoped, just so all of this shit would be over, but didn’t believe).

I still see important differences in GJ summary and the testimony McQuery gave.

In most criminal cases, this wouldn’t matter. We’d understand that the prosecutor was just trying to spin it as best they can and wait for the trial.

However, in this case, the court of public opinion, as shaped by idiot sportswriters, was based largely on those few lines in the GJP about what McQuery said to Paterno. The public seemed to take the GJP as proven gospel. It’s not, nor is it really intended to be.

Also, there’s still more to come on McQuery’s testimony. Dranov’s version was not allowed to be presented to the preliminary hearing. The rules of the preliminary hearing is that the judge has to take every witness at face-value. Testimony calling their veracity into question isn’t allowed. Most of the press missed this.

I think the Judge didn’t throw out the case, not so much because of McQuery’s testimony, but because of C&S’s own.

Curley kept saying he agrees that what Sandusky was doing was “inappropriate” but yet somehow not worthy of a call to the cops. That just doesn’t sound right.

And Schultz says he thought that CYS was callled and yet there’s no evidence of that (as we’ve discussed, they may have been called but nobody remembers and the records thrown out, but still, it doesn’t look good).

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

The low bar will not exist at trial

and the reasonable doubt has already been established under oath by the only witness in the Victim 2 counts. He was not “100% certain” and said so = reasonable doubt – case closed

But there is obviously NO QUESTION the Presentment was a LIE FALSE MISLEADING UNTRUE BOGUS BS etc. He did not see what the presentment says he saw and did not tell anyone that is what he saw. End of story for anyone with a brain.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 20, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Wrong

McQuery’s actual public testimony in the public hearing does not line up with the summary of his testimony in the GJP. Also, the Patriot got those hand-written notes where he conceded he “did not see penetration.” So unless McQuery has changed his story from the GJ testimony to the hearing, then it’s clear the GJP is wrong. It was written by the prosecutors and then voted on by a straight majority of the GJ. The point of the GJP was to bring a case against Sandusky. The GJ no doubt felt that the overall case was good enough. They wouldn’t vote against it just based on a few details. It’s just that those details matter a lot to Paterno.

In any event, McQuery’s testimony in the hearing trumps his GJ testimony.

There’s no case to be made that Paterno lied. He wasn’t present for the conversations between C&S and McQuery and McQuery’s recollection of his conversation with Paterno seems to line up very well with Paterno’s account – allowing for the erosion of memory over time and Paterno’s current fragile state.

The prosecutors have commended Paterno’s statements and he will, possibly, be a witness for them.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

You stopped the note at a curious juncture

I will bold the relevant part that makes it clear that there is nowhere near as much room between these supposed widely varying stories as some people desperately want to believe.

“I did not see insertion. I am certain that sexual acts/the young boy being sodomized was occurring.

Also, “witnessed” is a superset of “eyewitnessed”.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

That contradicts itself

McQuery says he is certain, but then provides absolutely no basis for that certainty. He didn’t see the sodomy or hear anything clearly indicative of sodomy, but he’s somehow sure it was happening. That doesn’t add up.

I can tell you that “I’m certain the moon is made of green cheese” but unless I give you some other supporting observations, why would you believe that?

My guess is that McQuery now sees, in light of the simple fact that he was called before a grand jury and now in light of all of the evidence, that Sandusky is a molester. He wants to make up for his previous inaction and nail Sandusky to the wall. So he’s saying he’s sure of something even though he didn’t see it.

But back in 2002, he didn’t have all of this context.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

You don't know this part:
He didn’t see the sodomy or hear anything clearly indicative of sodomy,

I’m sure we’ll hear more under cross-examination, if this ever goes to trial, but MM did not come off at the preliminary hearing as a guy who was unsure of what happened.

You are hanging your hat on the aurabass train that’s gone off the tracks two or three times already. I advise you reconsider.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Not quite

The lawyers asked him if he saw Sandusky’s johnson. He said “no.” If he didn’t see the alleged rapist’s junk, then how could he say he saw sodomy? He said he didn’t “look down there.” If he didn’t see where Sandusky’s junk was, he can’t say that he saw the rape. I don’t know how else to put it but like that.

He also said the kid wasn’t screaming or crying or anything. That would be a sound “clearly indicative of sodomy.”

Just because he didn’t see those things doesn’t mean it wasn’t rape, but if he didn’t see that, then he cannot be certain what he saw was rape. He cannot even be certain what he saw was sexual. He can say he’s certain now 10 years on, but his testimony doesn’t support that certainty and it certainly opens up a large hole in the account such that one can understand how Curley and Schultz wouldn’t have taken McQuery’s account to be proof of a rape.

You seem to be thinking that because McQuery is now “sure” of what was happening means that he actually saw that. Not so.

Somebody saying they are sure of something is not the same as good evidence of that something having happened. Lots of people say they are certain they were abducted by aliens and anally probed. Their certainty has little bearing on whether or not I believe them. (that’s an extreme example, but I trust you get my point).

It’s not that McQuery is a liar, it’s that he’s inferring things that he didn’t actually see.

My opinions are not influenced by aurabass. I was saying all of this before I even started contributing to this forum (although, by definition, I can’t prove that). I find his position far more extreme than my own.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Conflation again

I did not say what McQueary “saw”. Important distinction.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, but that's all that matters.

What he thinks may have been happening isn’t very important.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Not true.

In the sense that it is relevant to the charges against Sandusky, yes, it’s important.

What is important to the charges against everybody else here is what McQueary very clearly indicated he was sure was happening, and what people did with it after that.

I know you know the difference, but many other commenters here are conflating those two things, some on purpose, and it needs to stop.

by M1EK on Jan 20, 2012 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not "other commenters"

If somebody says to me “I didn’t actually see x,y,x, but it is my belief that x,y,z was happening” that is not the same as “witnessing” something. That is somebody inferring something based on incomplete evidence. McQuery’s inference is not automatically correct.

The GJP summarizes it as if McQuery definitely saw a rape. At least that’s how I read it and that’s certainly how most of the media read it. But he didn’t see a rape. He saw some suspicious stuff and he, almost a decade later in the context of all the other accusations, inferred it was a rape.

But at the time, absent that context, if McQuery told Paterno, Schultz and Curley that he saw something that looked like it could have been rape (certainly, nothing McQuery actually saw would discount the rape hypothesis, to get technical) but that he can’t really be sure because he didn’t see a rape, then P,S, and C would be justified in believing that it required further investigation before drawing any firm conclusions.

Unfortunately, there’s not a whole lot of investigation that could be done. I’m no CSI, but I’m pretty sure there’d be no physical evidence left in the shower. McQuery didn’t recognize the kid, so the only way to find out who the boy was would be to ask Sandusky (not a reliable witness given the situation) or maybe Second Mile might know.

As I recall, the testimony shows that Curley talked to Sandusky (I don’t think that was in the GJP). Schultz seems to think that the case was being investigated by CYS. There’s no evidence that that happened, but it may have given that they don’t keep all their records and, as far as I could tell, the AG only talked to one CYS employee.

And they did talk to Second Mile. It’s not clear exactly what those conversations were like. Did Curley or Schultz tell them “hey, you need to figure out who this boy was and talk to him about it?” Or, if they didn’t say that, you’d think the 2M people would figure out for themselves that they needed to do that. I’d like to think they did, but the evidence doesn’t show either way. The fact that we still don’t know who the kid was suggests they didn’t do this, however.

So it appears that Curley and Schultz did conduct a follow-up investigation. It wasn’t a particularly good investigation, mind you, and they should have known that they really weren’t qualified to conduct that investigation, but I’m not really confident that the real university police would have done any better.

But they also should have known that the absence of a formal police report was going to come back to bite them in the ass someday, but I don’t see any basis to assume they’re lying. If anything, their own testimony makes them look really incompetent. I don’t see why anyone would lie about that.

It does seem to me, however, that Curley and Schultz are guilty of failure to report. They may get out of that because of the weakness of PA law at the time, but Schultz should have known that he was not an adequate substitute for a real cop.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 20, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

It's pretty simple really

and despite of the attempts to confuse the issue the elements are clear.

We have a definitive 3 slapping sounds that become “rhythmic and sexual” in the mind of MM – and once a decent defense lawyer gets into him will never stand up as either rhythmic or sexual

We have 2 1 or 2 second glances of Sandusky’s back with no view of hands or privates. – and once a decent defense lawyer goes to cross he will tear him up on his suspicions based on that.

We have little or no movement
We have NO PAIN
We have “not 100% certain
We have no action to interfere and we have him not bothering to ask the boy if he needs help or coming back to check on him
all of that is a defense attorney’s wet dream.
and he can suspect all he wants or talk about ’extremely sexual” all he wants but the lawyers will kill him on the brevity of his glances and his ACTIONS.

This TRAIN has left the station like a bullet train in the Chunnel and it rides those rails to total destruction of this witness.

and we have not even gotten into his variety of statements to his Father, Dr Dranov, Paterno and Curley & Schultz

These perjury charges are lost before the battle even begins

And last but far from least we HAVE NO VICTIM 2

This is far too simple for any decent defense attorney and MM’s testimony will be totally worthless after cross.

Born in Fort Sanders - 1st Residence Aconda Court (Alumni Hall) - 1st games at Neyland 1947 - Mother = TORCHBEARER - Dad grad of UT & UT Law + professor BORN ORANGE and BLEED ORANGE .......

by aurabass on Jan 20, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

"clearly indicative"

is important. I think it was meant re: a third party, such as a jury

I don’t doubt that McQueary believes that’s what was going on. But he’s not the jury, and his opinion carries weight, but isn’t dispositive. While he might have thought body position and sounds he heard were indicative of sodomy, a jury (and anyone else) is entitled to question his assumptions, break it down to actual sense-related testimony (what he saw, what he heard) and judge for themselves whether that would be clearly indicative of any one thing or another.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

The GJ report..

does not jive with MM’s actual testimony.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 19, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

these are the parts of threads where I get my Z button finger

going like I was playing USA track and field at that dumpy arcade downtown back in the day

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Jan 19, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I had that game with the track pad for NES

where you’d run real fast, and then for long jump, you could jump off the mat completely for like 3 seconds, then jump back on to land and break all kinds of records.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

the goddamn hammer throw always got me

so tough

don’t get me wrong, I love modern video games, but there was something special about USA track and field

NO ONE beat me in the hurdles

"my dad says Michigan used to be good"

by hbeach08 on Jan 19, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

It's because you're old.

Although not as old as I am. LOL!

"Paige your Auburn opinions dont count unless its with regard to making fun of Roof!" - skarocksoi

by Paige2PSU on Jan 19, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Be fair.

He could have been talking about Campus Casino.

I’m so glad Playland made it until the end of my run in State College. Between Area 51 and Mortal Kombat II I could kill an hour with 2 dollars. And that kind of cheap fun doesn’t grow on trees.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know to break it to you.

But it’s been gone for like 10 years.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know how to break it to either of you

But it was never even there

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, you probably "studied"

I went there when I was too high for the bar.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think CC had Track & Field.

But Playland did.

Except in the early 80s when video games were huge (remember Golden Dome and Pennsylvania Spation?) CC was more of a pool hall. Not so many video games.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 6:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Spation

That was the one on Pugh below a restaurant (Pappy’s at one time) and opposite the parking garage, right? It started out as an indoor miniature golf place, but that didn’t last.
I don’t remember Golden Dome.
I used to go to CC for Robotron; either Playland didn’t have it or the CC one had better controls.

by confirmy on Jan 19, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd for the replicant quote

Playland was definitely a guilty pleasure for us in the early 90’s. Wasn’t there a used CD store downstairs as well?

by cs93 on Jan 19, 2012 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, Playland

My parents hated the place. It was one of the few rules I had growing up: Do NOT go to Playland- or Campus Casino. Another rule was don’t leave the hs football games. Of course I would leave the games and go to Playland! Always managed to get back to the games in time to check in with my folks at halftime. They never knew my “secret” until I was 24. My mom just about flipped out. Heck, I’m 39 now and she STILL gets ticked about it.

by wonderlin on Jan 19, 2012 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

SCHS football games were great.

Thousands of PSU students never even realized/cared they were so close by, but for a select few of us non-locals, they were fun. Do they still play in the “bowl” downtown? One of my favorite HS stadiums.

by cs93 on Jan 19, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

They’ve never been able to figure out a way to close that place. Or even to really renovate it.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 7:34 AM EST up reply actions  

They've made many improvements

It’s astroturf now and there’s continued talk about other upgrades to the lockers and what not.

There are always people who want to sell it but I’ll definitely be fighting to keep it. It’s great to have a downtown stadium. Plus, that thing is kind of a drainage nightmare. I’m not sure what else could be built there.

It’s different these days than in my day. Because the team actually wins, a lot more kids come to the games then in my day. Better atmosphere. I went to homecoming last year and played in the alumni band. It was a blast.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 20, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes...

City Lights. They were the last of the actual record stores to close in State College. They closed within the last 2 years.

by zipsmurd on Jan 20, 2012 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

City Lights was under Campus Casino

Not Playland.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 7:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I used to go to Arboria

every year for some Christmas presents. It was like a whole new world for a bumpkin like me from west-central PA…learned about a lot of music they didn’t show on MTV or sell at the big chains.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 20, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I love used CD stores.

State College had some good ones, Arboria was a pretty good one. One of the best if you were looking for Jazz. City Lights was a bit more alternative.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I miss those stores a lot

luckily there is a place called Siren Records in Doylestown that has used cd’s, vinyl, and absically everything you can imagine. It is awesome.

by FB6244 on Jan 20, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

It's such a niche market

That a very few stores can thrive, but having a physical music store is no longer profitable for about 90% of places. Basically at this point, you have to bring specialty stuff to survive – DJ equipment, collector’s items and personlized service.

Personally, I sometimes buy used or clearance CDs because it’s cheaper than downloading that album online. I know DJs can get mostly anything they want in digital format, but the DJs I know are still pretty snobby about having original vinyl for most of their music, so there’s that niche at least.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 20, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

It was

both dumpy and awesome.

I spent many a 3AM playing Funhouse and later Addams Family with friends from the dorm.

Also, the guy counting out change spurred an impression which I still do from time to time – “one”, “another one”, “yet another one”, “still another one”, “this is also one”.

by M1EK on Jan 20, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Aurabass' Rabbit Hole Post..

Shows pretty clearly that the scandal originated with the AG’s office. They misquoted the Grand Jury Testimony and pointed the media cannons at PSU.

Losing a game is heartbreaking. Losing your sense of excellence or worth is a tragedy.

by 87Townie on Jan 19, 2012 6:05 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Catch 22

The BOT can’t have it both ways. The power circle in the BOT wanted JOE gone, this was their out.

IMPEACH CORBETT and don’t let the door hit the BOT in the ass on the way out!!!

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that it’s difficult to determine whether or not they are genuine"
- Abraham Lincoln

by PsuSam on Jan 20, 2012 3:14 AM EST up reply actions  

None of us here may have heard about 2002 specifically

but OctaShields said he heard something later on, and I produced links quoting several people saying rumors about Sandusky were to be heard long before the GJ presentment was released.

I didn’t hear any either, of course, so I can’t claim to know for sure here – but second-hand reports are out there.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Not arguing with you

but just pointing out that I recently saw many people on here say that they never heard rumors about the 1998 (or, I think, the 2002 incident) until after the GJ investigation began. These same people seemed pretty sure that they would have heard something if the rumors were out there. I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth so I won’t name any names. They can confirm this if they want.

So my impression is that the rumors started circulating after the GJ investigation began but before the presentment was released.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

The only rumor I heard of prior to March was MM's post.

I haven’t even read what he posted on the message boards to find out exactly what he expressed, but it was enough for investigators to take it seriously. I would think if there was additional internet speculation, there would’ve been more people included in the grand jury presentment as to being aware of Sandusky abusing boys, since McQueary was apparently the big break they needed.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

At one point, someone posted a link to a message board where someone clearly seemed to indicate that they knew of “smoke” if not fire in this case. Not sure of the dates, but it was interesting – if anyone cares to dig that back up.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 19, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

The one that I saw

was after Ganim’s article in March 2011. I’m not sure if anyone heard much before then.

"Paige your Auburn opinions dont count unless its with regard to making fun of Roof!" - skarocksoi

by Paige2PSU on Jan 19, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

You may be right. I don’t fully recall. If one of our BSDetectives can find the link that was posted, it would be appreciated.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 19, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Why are you shoehorning this in again?
“None of us…had ever heard anything about it”

Where “it” was very clearly referring to the 2002 incident. I specifically explained last time you tried to appropriate my quote that it had nothing to do with Penn State or the 2002 incident.

The above poster was talking about the 2002 incident specifically, because the current topic is whether or not the Board should have known that Penn State could be involved and be subject to a huge scandal, NOT that JS was generally rumored to have molested kids. As you’ve noted, I had heard something about JS generally, but never in the context of Penn State or any specific year.

So what I’m saying is that second-hand reports about JS generally are irrelevant to this conversation. I understand your point, and it is perhaps worth something when used in the proper context, but you’re stretching here.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree they absolutely should have tried to get more info,

of course granting you, for the sake of argument, the assumption that people on the Board did, in fact, hear some sort of general rumors.

And it really goes back to the whole governance setup and “standing orders” thing, where the Board apparently relied completely on Spanier to process all the info and present it to them. I mean, anyone on the Board could have tried to get more information. But since no one did, they run to the NYT and throw Spanier under the bus for misleading them.

The weak sauce put forward by the Board is something we can all agree on.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Even without the rumors

they should have shaken the whole org chart from 1970-2011 upside down and see if anything fell out.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Law notwithstanding

I find it hard to believe that Corbett or some other tapped in politician in PA didn’t tip off his compadres (and gigantic donors) that sit on the Board that something was brewing for Penn State. I’m not generally one to get into conspiracy theories, but they either set Penn State up to believe there was no exposure so they could nail them unprepared (can of worms there) or told people and there’s some nefarious industrial-political shit at play here that none of us really wants to think about too much.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Because...

in the grand scheme of things PSU’s involvement in JS’s alleged crimes is minimal. One incidient has completely overshadowed 9 other victims/incidents.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 19, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, but what I'm saying is

that charges WERE brought against Penn State administrators.

Either the AGs Office told certain people it was coming, and for whatever reason it still played out like it did…or they didn’t tell anyone and caught them unaware.

Either way, I’m assuming there was some sort of consideration given and the choice was made because it benefitted someone in some way.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

You would think....

but politicans tend to be pretty stupid people incapable of rationale thought.

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 19, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahh...but consider that

Politicians generally act ways that are perfectly efficient with serving their self-interest. Their actions might not be rational from the standpoint of their position as “public servant”, but they generally do things that are rational if you’re looking at the result on their self-interests.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

As with Corbett

the most recent democrat he is nailing for using his assistants on campaign work. In the 08-2010 time frame Corbett had 14 investigators working on one particular case involving campaign finance. He had 1 investigator on the Sandusky/2nd Mile investigation. But as he said, he didn’t donate to Corbett’s campaign while they did.

I just read.

by BMAN13 on Jan 19, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

You didn't use the sarcasm font!

"Paige your Auburn opinions dont count unless its with regard to making fun of Roof!" - skarocksoi

by Paige2PSU on Jan 19, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

And actually

it is still an unproven incident.

by FB6244 on Jan 19, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

hey man, Spanier talk to you about that Sandusky stuff yet?

Because there are rules in place that specifically forbid it.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

That's a lie.

They were neither friends nor drinking buddies.

Also, when will we get a straight story as to what exactly Erickson knew and when?

by LeLion on Jan 19, 2012 10:32 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

which he has said

to the Faculty Senate and at BoB’s presser was nothing until Nov.

Here’s my problem with that – he’s provost, writer (signatory) of the Employee Handbook, #2 at Old Main taking over business for GS when he’s out of office (which, one can surmise, is often) – but he hears NOTHING, doesn’t read Collegian, doesn’t have a staff member or colleague who walks into his office and say – hey did you see that there’s a Grand Jury investigation?

by PSUgirl on Jan 19, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

GJ is secret

Spanier was the only one who would tell him and Spanier was nonchalant about it. As provost, it wasn’t going to ever really be his problem. It only became his issue when he became president.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 6:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

It is not unreasonable to suggest Curley, Spanier, and Schultz interacted on a weekly, if not daily, basis with board members.

Withe exception of Spanier, it is wholly unreasonable ti have expected this. In fact the standing orders of the BOT specifically forbid such contact. That’s why the BOT damns Spanier so specifically. Everybody elses failure (from a BOT prospective) is in failing to make sure Spanier was informed.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Schultz was on the Board

I have a hard time believing he didn’t mention the 2002 incident to anyone else that is on the Board.

I’m not suggesting that they openly discussed it in a meeting. I’m suggesting it is not unreasonable to consider that at least a few had casual knowledge of Sandusky’s prior run-ins, and should’ve known the university could get dragged into it.

Consider this my official declaration of non-support of child molestation.

by 06Lion on Jan 19, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

We'll never know what the BOT discussed.

Because all of the decisions are made in closed sessions. We do know what their stated policy is as it relates to contact between the BOT and it is none, except with the President or someone specifically designated by the President.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

The majority of the evidence suggests that Schultz told very few people

about the 2002 incident.

If he had been telling more people about this incident, this whole debacle would have unfolded differently.

I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.

by spakajewia on Jan 19, 2012 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

The majority of the evidence suggests that Schultz

would have trouble with shoes if it weren’t for Velcro.

by cs93 on Jan 19, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I said this above, but I'll say it again

This is the sort of reasoning that leads people to say that Tom Bradley and other coaches must have known about the prior incidents. I don’t want to speak for you specifically, 06Lion, but a lot of people (myself included) find that hard to believe. So I also have to find it hard to believe that Schultz or others would have casually mentioned this to the BoT.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

There is a difference

I would not be surprised if Bradley and others had heard from Mike McQueary about what he saw in 2002. But what would you have them do? They knew it was reported to their boss, who turned it over to his bosses, and nothing came of it. They can’t be expected to go out on a limb either and contact state police. I hold no ill will towards them if MM had mentioned it to them.

But if somebody on the Board, who is at the top of the food chain, had general secondhand knowledge that there was even a possibility that Sandusky was doing these things, then I think it is justifiable to laugh in their face when they say they were completely blindsided by this whole thing. And then punch them in the face for doing nothing over the last 10, possibly 14 years.

Consider this my official declaration of non-support of child molestation.

by 06Lion on Jan 19, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

If they had that knowledge, the criticism is justified

but I don’t find it hard to believe that they were not aware. I doubt this was the kind of thing that was talked about.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I doubt McQuery told the other coaches

Because, rightly or wrongly, his inaction when he saw Sandusky and the boy make him look pretty bad. It’s not something he’s proud of. He wouldn’t have wanted to talk about it and Paterno wouldn’t want to talk about it a) it’s just nasty b) it would make McQuery look bad.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

I thought I read somewhere that he said he never did mention it to any of the other coaches. There was a comment about saying something about not liking/feeling comfortable when JS was around, but that was it. Unfortunately, I can’t remember if that was in his more recent teestimony or what.

by wonderlin on Jan 19, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I can buy they didn't know.

From the sounds of the article, they literally phoned it in – too busy with their brunches and opera… I think for most of them this was a vanity position.

by cs93 on Jan 19, 2012 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

My understanding is that this simply isn't something Boards are supposed to prevent

Like I said above; they are not running the university. They don’t deal with the day to day. They’re meant to be strategic leaders, and caretakers of the overall health of the University in the long term. That’s why it’s comprised of a mix of industry leaders, policiticans, and successful alumni. That’s also why it’s not comprised of hard-core, full time university administrators.

Spanier and his team ran the University. They ran the day to day. They were charged with presenting to the board any potential meta-issues that could seriously damage the image of the University. And they didn’t do that, either via incompetence or outright deception.

by SkellerDweller06 on Jan 19, 2012 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Isn't part of their responsibility to make sure Spanier and his team are doing their job?

If you are in a management position, you are responsible for those below you performing their jobs competently. If someone you are in charge of fails to perform adequately, the responsibility for them is on you. If they did not have adequate training, or were just incompetent from the start, those things reflect on the management. While I’m not trying to say the entire responsibility for the situation rests on the Trustees, I do think that they need to take some responsibility for this situation. Afterall, they hired Spanier, either the BoT or Spanier hired Curley and Schultz, the chain of responsibility reaches the board.

What irritates me most isn’t that I feel the board is entirely at fault, it’s that they are ducking all responsibility. In my personal and professional lives, I take responsibility for things, even if I’m not primarily responsible. It would be VERY helpful in this situation if the board would simply say “Yes, we were partly to blame, as were Spanier, Curley and Schultz for the proper actions not being taken. We are working to ensure something like this can never happen again.” That effectively buries the whole responsibility conversation, instead of their current actions which have been to force that conversation into the national media.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 9:54 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Spanier and his team WERE doing their jobs...until this

The university has never been stronger. It’s a national brand. They’re basically curing cancer out in Hershey. Forbes rated grads as best prepared to enter the work place. Enrollment was up, applications were up, revenues were up, donations were up….

Everything was excellent, until they fucked this up.

by SkellerDweller06 on Jan 19, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with your concepts here, but would you not characterize this situation as something completely relevant to their responsibilities as "caretakers of the overall health of the University?" If this wasn’t large enough to come across their radar, what is?

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

But Spanier knew about 2002

He should have been at least worried that it would come to Penn State’s doorstep because of that.

He also should have known, that even if all of Sandusky’s alleged crimes were in Taiwan, that the press would find a way to blame Paterno.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

maybe he didn't care?

Negligance is one option. The other is that he knew what was going to happen and didn’t care to stop it. Is that even realistic? I don’t know.

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Not likely

Spanier cared a lot about protecting PSU’s image, to a fault. For example, when the conference of governors was here, he saw to it that students’ protest banners were taken down and what not. And there’s anecdotal stories about sexual harassment cases that he swept under the rug. He was/is a control freak. That helped PSU in some ways, but hurt in others.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I just don't understand him being completely negilant

if he is that much of a control freak

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know about this...
He also should have known, that even if all of Sandusky’s alleged crimes were in Taiwan, that the press would find a way to blame Paterno.

I’m sure people like Giger would have found a way to do that, but I don’t think we would have seen anywhere near the level of acrimony if Paterno hadn’t been told something about the 2002 incident.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Not like what we have now, but still a big story

Spanier was all about protecting the PSU brand, and yet he failed to see this as a threat. It’s hard to understand.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

More realistically

He should have known that if Sandusky misbehaved at Second Mile, he might have misbehaved at Penn State, and he should have gone back and talked to McQueary and Paterno – himself – not through underlings.

This is why Spanier should have been fired out of a cannon – because he never bothered to do this.

by M1EK on Jan 19, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed (not so much about the cannon)

Even if it looked like PSU was legally in the clear, the simple fact that a well known PSUer like Sandusky was up on charges should have triggered a more proactive and aggressive response.

In fact, even if it was somebody at Second Mile other than Sandusky, PSU should have been ready to deal with it, because Second Mile has so many relationships with PSU people.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Next vexing question - Why were MM, Joe, Curley, Schultz, and Spanier even questioned by the GJ?

Perhaps someone can fill me in, but I don’t recall reading about why the PSU staff was part of the investigation in the first place. What tipped the GJ off that they needed to speak with this group? They still don’t have Victim Number 2 identified (to my knowledge), and it’s safe to say that Sandusky didn’t tell them about it.

by SkellerDweller06 on Jan 19, 2012 7:37 AM EST reply actions  

Way back, wasn't there a comment here that the information was picked up from a blog?

It was related to bloggers’ speculation about which person might be a witness??? Something led speculation to MM’s name. That was how PSU came to attention of AG.

I have this dim memory of reading something about that back in Nov.

by be4time on Jan 19, 2012 8:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I have this same recollection

though I don’t recall the details. But the investigation into the 2002 incident definitely started with MM.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

I had asked the question

And there was a NYT article about it. Too lazy to look it up now, but may in a bit.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 19, 2012 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

This bothers me a bit (from the article)
He told of a horrific scene he had stumbled upon as a graduate assistant one Friday night in March 2002: a naked boy, about 10, hands pressed against the locker room wall of the Lasch Football Building, being raped by Sandusky. McQueary was explicit and unequivocal, the people said. He had told Paterno, the team’s longtime and widely beloved head coach, about the incident the next day, but he was filled with regret that nothing had happened.

That’s not what he testified in the GJ, but it’s what everyone in the world “knows” about Penn State. Is this the original reference to McQ seeing a rape?

Losing a game is heartbreaking. Losing your sense of excellence or worth is a tragedy.

by 87Townie on Jan 19, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe the investigators got ahold of McQueary.

I read in an article when this story broke how McQueary was actually considered the most important piece of the investigation because he was a 3rd party witness to the “he said/she said” testimonies of the alleged victims. I’m not sure how they discovered he was aware of anything other than maybe just poking around to see if anyone at Penn State knew of anything.

Once they had McQueary giving his account of the 2002 incident, they used Joe, Curley, Schultz, Spanier, et al (since we know that at least Tom Bradley was also interviewed) to corroborate that he witnessed what he did. Their acknowledgment of MM reporting an incident aided in the credibility. That is what I believe the strategic rationale to be, however if there were any other motives such as political, I don’t know and I’ll leave that to aurabass.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

and from what I recall

they were able to get ahold of McQueary because of something he posted in a message board, and they effectively traced it back to him.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 19, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

what would he have posted on a message board about this?!

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I've wondered that too

It seems that ultimately, it was McQuery’s decision to talk to them. McQuery could have stopped all of this if he’d just shut up, but he didn’t . That’s a big one in the plus column for him – speaking up finally. Although he has lots in the minus column.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

couldn't even get through the NYT article

had to stop when it said that it was “Paterno’s football facility”.

REALLY??? Really.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Jan 19, 2012 8:18 AM EST reply actions  

this wasn't comments.

this was in the body of the article. This was written by a journalist at the New York Times.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Jan 19, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

direct quote:
Surma announced that an agreement appeared to have been reached to fire Paterno, too — the trustees having determined that he had failed to take adequate action when he was told that one of his longtime assistants had been seen molesting a 10-year-old boy in Paterno’s football facility.

emphasis mine. In the 2nd paragraph of the article.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Jan 19, 2012 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Once again, passing the responsibility off on someone else.

I would love for them to come out and tell us exactly what they are responsible for, because so far the total stands at nothing. They act like prior to the news report, they were not responsible for anything, and only after the news broke did they ride in on their white horses and save the day. And now, promoting the truth hurts their agenda. If it’s found their championing of child abuse hatred was misdirected, it hurts the pedestal they’re placing themselves on.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Ironically, Paterno didn't spend much time there.

Arguably, Joe should have spent more time in the Lasch building. As the coach, I think he should have hung out with his players more. Bradley, it seems, spent more time with the guys. I hope Bill will too.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Hate is way too nice of a word

to describe my feelings towards these people.

by FB6244 on Jan 19, 2012 8:27 AM EST reply actions  

I'm expecting Garban's resignation tomorrow.

Not being privy to the scandal and not reading the presentment until 48 hours after it broke is unacceptable by any means.

by PennStateBasketball on Jan 19, 2012 9:23 AM EST reply actions  

You'd hope that would happen

This is a prime example of how having inneffective (or impotent) people in the president, GC and chairman positions can really fuck things up. Two down, one to go.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 19, 2012 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Well.......

Good morning all!!!!! Things still F#@*ed up? Revisionism by any Media source, pro or con, is simply bullshat. And until the trial, none of it means a thing right now.

"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God."

by DerryPharmer on Jan 19, 2012 9:30 AM EST reply actions  

Mm-hmm.

Amazing that they’d be available for an article to be published the day before their next meeting!

Like spak says above, everyone failed. Every last one of them, and all of this post-mortem public relations nonsense isn’t going to save anyone’s reputation.

by Chris Grovich on Jan 19, 2012 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it's actually going to hurt their reputations more.

This is going to devolve into a mud-slinging contest soon. Especially once Spanier, Curley and Schultz’s camps are able to enter the fray. I don’t understand how forcing an argument into the national media is going to result in anything positive.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

The BOT interview was just what we should expect

Out of touch, tone-deaf, and inadequate to address our real concerns; a poorly-considered reaction coming way too late.

I’m pretty disappointed in the Times for not asking the tough questions. What was Gary Schultz’s role on the board? How was his removal from the board handled? If Spanier’s public statement was inaccurate, why didn’t the board make another one? How was the decision made to cancel Joe’s press conference?

The Board’s clumsy hand-wringing behind closed doors while the media frenzy raged is the primary reason we’re angry with them. What did they hope to accomplish by giving an interview detailing that clumsy hand-wringing?

by newenglandnittanylion on Jan 19, 2012 9:51 AM EST via Android app reply actions  

His role is ex-officio.

He doesn’t vote and he’s probably mainly there to provide information and updates.

"Paige your Auburn opinions dont count unless its with regard to making fun of Roof!" - skarocksoi

by Paige2PSU on Jan 19, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Jan 2009 minutes, Schultz invited guest. He was Treasurer 'til Jun 30, 2009. This help?

I just happened to read this the other evening but not other minutes (except budget in Exc meeting).

by be4time on Jan 19, 2012 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I think this is worth posting

because some people have asked why Cynthia Baldwin didn’t disclose what she heard in testimony…

Baldwin had sat in on the grand jury testimony but was not legally allowed to speak to the trustees about the contents of the testimony, according to Lanny J. Davis, external counsel and crisis management adviser to the office of the Penn State president and to the board of trustees.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 10:01 AM EST reply actions  

She couldn't disclose the testimony

But she could tell Spanier, who could then inform the BoT, that there was a potential shitstorm coming without getting into specifics.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 19, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

This times a thousand

Since time machines haven’t yet been invented, this is probably the most responsible thing anybody who knew about the GJ investigation could have done.

by Artiefufkin10 on Jan 19, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree that the school should've taken the initiative to investigate this themselves.

Whether or not they did investigate it though, doesn’t mean the outcome would’ve been any better. The problem that they faced is that the presentment made claims that were not supported by any evidence or testimony. At no point did anyone claim to have witnessed a boy being raped, only the opportunity for it to occur. Further, through testimony, the people in power all concurred that they were not given all the details and that they were never told of rape or intercourse. Any investigation conducted by PSU would not have been able to be conducted with the goal of disproving those assertions, since they weren’t aware that those assertions were even possible.

This is not to say that an investigation wouldn’t have allowed them to handle it better. I think it would’ve given them facts to help quell the speculation immediately, and I do fault them for not doing so. I just don’t want to see us think that had there been an investigation, this could’ve entirely been avoided.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes, she couldn't tell what SHE heard in testimony

But each witness could have provided a summary account of their testimony to the Board because, as per the AG’s information, the witnesses are allowed to disclose their testimony:

The only legitimate means through which grand jury proceedings can be made public is through the persons who are subpoenaed to testify. They, alone, of all the people associated with the grand jury, have the right to disclose their testimony to whomever they choose, if they choose to do so.

Link HERE. Then she could certainly comment on what was then public information.

*

by Smee on Jan 19, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Telling their side of the story on friendly turf is a good start, but...

The BoT sent Dr. Erickson on a whirlwind tour to take the tough questions from alumni, but ultimately there was little in the way of real answers because he was not in the room when Spanier briefed them in May or for any of the meetings in November when the decisions about the University’s response were made. Someone from the BoT should have been on that stage with him answering those tough questions. Instead, they ducked, and continue to duck.

by danpsu97 on Jan 19, 2012 11:06 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions  

Read through the article

What a load of crap.

There is nothing in there that they couldn’t have said 2 months ago to help calm tensions. The only difference between then and now? Board election season. They’re a group of people who caved to their own agendas and the outside pressure of those who shouldn’t mean crap to PSU (ESPN and the media drones namely) and now they’re afraid because we’ve seen right through them and they’re going to get replaced from their cushy board position, they should be happy, it’ll allow them more time to attend the opera and play golf.

I am Sandy's bitch.

Penn State Forever

by Rogue Nine on Jan 19, 2012 11:12 AM EST reply actions   2 recs

while this may be accurate for one of the members

there is only one who is up for reelection. The other two board positions are currently occupied by people not seeking reelection, including Joyner.

Fire Dan Snyder

by Cari Greene on Jan 19, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

well, they never said fired in regards to Paterno

just something along the lines of “relieved of his duties effective immediately”

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 19, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

True

But they also never came out to clarify they didn’t fire him either. They were vague on purpose and let the story develope. They have come out at any point in time to clarify. They clarifed with G-span – saying that he wasn’t fired, but had resigned (a lie) but they did release a statement after the press conference.

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

BOT making Joepa their scapegoat

and with some lame ass reasoning.

They have ALL got to be replaced.

by Nectir on Jan 19, 2012 11:20 AM EST reply actions  

Agreed.

Their actions after the news broke showed cowardice and fear to be their primary motives. And that has continued on through today. It’s only after other people have started promoting Penn State that the BoT finally comes out with an attempt at public statement?

There has not been one action that they have taken that can be constituted as true leadership. They have not confronted any of the speculation or criticism, they have not taken the time to investigate and gain an understanding of the truth before taking action, and they continue to act in their own best interests instead of the best interests of the university.

Making a statement that it was not their fault is far from leadership. It is cowardice and irresponsibility. I’m utterly disgusted by them and I truly hope we are able to remove all of them from power.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 19, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

one disagreement

bot was briefed 5 – 10 minutes about sandusky (or so they say, convenient that it was a closed meeting) – and now we’re told that they were also told that there had been 4 GJ investigations

Sit for 10 minutes and see how long that actually is…

But NO ONE asked a question. No one said, “just a min, who testified?” or “So… the school isn’t involved at all?” or “hmmm – 4 investigations – when were they? were there ever any here at PSU?”

I can hold them accountable for that – no matter how much G-Span may have “glossed over it”

by PSUgirl on Jan 19, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Asinine

Nearly half the article was devoted to how blindsided the BoT was by news of the severity of the GJ investigation due to Spanier’s incompetence.

YET, they still allowed him to make that idiotic press release. Unbelievable.

by Artiefufkin10 on Jan 19, 2012 11:46 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

I read it differently

Assuming that you’re talking about Spanier’s press release supporting Curley and Schultz, I don’t think that the BoT saw that before it was issued. It seemed to have caught them by surprise and angered them, as it did many of us. I can’t believe Spanier made it past the first BoT meeting on Sunday.

The surprise for me was that the BoT cancelled Joe’s press conference, not Spanier. The BoT appears to have been “in control” (whatever that means) from about Tuesday on.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 19, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I think you echo a similar sentiment..

Spanier failed to see a major media/PR crisis looming and didn’t position the university to handle it.

The BoT were clearly not in the know, yet they entrusted him to represent the University through that statement. I mean c’mon, at least run it by Garban and Surma before you make the final release.

I just have a hard time believing that was the final straw for Spanier.

by Artiefufkin10 on Jan 19, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

What I took away from this

The only people with real authority are Garban and Surma. I mean, just in this article they admitted to taking unilateral action on like 4 different issues, then getting rubber stamped by the rest of the Board.

Did we elect these guys?

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 11:54 AM EST reply actions  

I think they're part of the industry inner circle.

"Paige your Auburn opinions dont count unless its with regard to making fun of Roof!" - skarocksoi

by Paige2PSU on Jan 19, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I can't believe

they don’t suffocate under the weight of their enormous egos.

by FB6244 on Jan 19, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

We elected Garban

Surma is a Buisness and Industry appointee.

I am a Penn State Nittany Lion, and I played for the legendary Joe Paterno, and more importantly, I am a man because of it. - Lavar Arrington

by LegalLion on Jan 19, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a feeling

that this will be green quick.

Consider this my official declaration of non-support of child molestation.

by 06Lion on Jan 19, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Excellent response and reaction.

If only there was something we could do to these idiots.

by FB6244 on Jan 19, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, only fat cat industrial magnates

would think that telling a journalist that they said “does anyone have any objections” showed their willingness to open the matter to meaningful discourse. That’s like on page 2 of “Power Moves for Dummies”.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 19, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I personally don’t care of they were playing golf or were at the opera or that they have access to private jets. I wish I could do that stuff too, too bad I picked a major that will never allow me to have that life style.

On the other hand, I do care completely about their actions or lackthereof and how they continue not to understand how they are viewed and their responsilbity.

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

the only reason I included the playing golf/opera/private jets part

is that it just seems to me that a lot of these BoT members treated it more like a hobby (h/t to PsuSam above) than an actual job. I mean they even admit that they were informed of the Sandusky investigation back in the spring, but that Spanier didn’t emphasize enough how big a deal it would be. As members of the BoT, if you really are in charge of this university perhaps you should have done something more to at least determine the university’s liability exposure, because even if it was just a former employee, he was a very high profile former employee and people will still make the connection to Penn State because it will sell papers (or ad clicks? What’s the proper analogy now?).

At the very least they should see the parallels between why they fired Paterno (taking the vague reporting of a subordinate and not following up adequately, apparently acting arrogant, ability to do their job in the future based on reactions) and their present situation, because based on those standards they should all be fired immediately and without the ability to give their own side of the story.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 19, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I totally agree that they didn't take this seriously enough!

I just think, given the current political climate, it would be best not to bring in anger about “the have” and the “have nots”

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't bring up the haves and have nots

they did when they published it in their “feel pity for us” article. I know they are all rich, and I don’t care, normally. If they acted appropriately while golfing, jetsetting, and attending operas I would be giving them a standing ovation (well probably not, I’d probably just nod while reading about it and move on with the rest of my life). Instead their little hobby blew up on them and they are acting like chickens with their heads cut off (chickens wearing prada shoes, of course)

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 19, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

ok. gotcha. thanks for clarifying

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

They come off as one of those rich, negligent parents who takes little interest in actually raising their child (or governing Penn State) and instead hands it off to others like the babysitter (in this case Spanier) to handle everything.

I openly guffawed when I read this:

Anne Riley, another trustee, said she would always remember being at the opera, sitting in seat 15, Row B, of the balcony, when she heard the news.

Now I know she remembers and she’s cultured! Way more cultured than me, that’s for sure. Thus, totally qualified for this position.

@Kunk7

by Kunk on Jan 19, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I love how the seat and row is relevant to this story.

I feel worse and worse for these poor victims, because the BOT is out there acting like greatly suffered from learning the news, how do you think these poor kids felt? Sorry your opera experience was ruined in what is perceived to be excellent seats. Holy Hell.

by mleepsu08 on Jan 19, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I don’t understand why these details were reported. It doesn’t have any relevance.

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, We Are - Tennyson

by belbijou on Jan 19, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Thread hijack!

Does that mean they are “victims”?

by cs93 on Jan 19, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

She's a normal person.

Balcony seats, what plebeian! It’s orchestra or nothing for this high roller.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 19, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

jesse, are you gonna run for the BoT?

You probably don’t want the job/responsibility, but I would do everything and anything to help you get elected, even if it isn’t this cycle.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 19, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

speaking of which I just got front row mezanine seats for Hot Tuna at the Whitaker Center on March 3.

Looks like a small venue and its not opera but I am still excited since I haven’t seen Jorma and Jack since the early 80’s

I just read.

by BMAN13 on Jan 19, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I couldn't do it

I’m not smart enough to be as aloof as these people were and I’m not a supervisor because I am not a yes man. These people come across as being business leaders that agreed their way to the top.

I just read.

by BMAN13 on Jan 19, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

She is a teacher

She taught at State High (Hail maroon and gray!!!) when I was there, but I didn’t have her for a teacher. She’s a bit loopy. In fact, every single English teacher at State High when I was there was insane. They were all fantastic teachers and helped me learn how to write (which, believe it or not, I do for a living) but they were all insane-in-a-good-way. Her included.

Just saying.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

she was a little extra loopy

but, as you said, a great teacher. Not at all what i would call “elitist” – but that’s definitely how it was portrayed in the article.

by PSUgirl on Jan 19, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Being into Opera doesn't make one "elitist"

I’m not an opera fan, but let’s not play this “who’s more down to earth” game based on people’s leisure activities. Joepa, for example, is into opera.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe is pretty elitist

but that’s my opinion of him as a townie.

It was a superfluous tidbit – as was the addition of “private” to plane in how the trustees got to State College that does not send the same message as “I was downloading ‘Red Solo Cup’”

by PSUgirl on Jan 19, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

She has a PSU Board Of Trustees Page

Unfortunately, the “Teacher” page is unavailable. My guess is it’s blacked out in opposition to SOPA. Also, no mention of the opera anywhere.

@Kunk7

by Kunk on Jan 19, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

THIS

Is a much better version of what I was trying to say last night. Thank you.

by cs93 on Jan 19, 2012 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I am amazed at the continued ridiculous actions by the BOT.

Were they directed by a PR firm that this article would somehow paint them in a good light? Or did they sit together in their “master of the universe” control center and giggly reach out and compose this “poor me” article?

I am more embarrassed every day that I am an alumni of Penn State. The BOT is a complete disgrace.

by mleepsu08 on Jan 19, 2012 12:22 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

going to have to....

find a different way that we’re currently doing. Because right now, we sound just like the people we hate.

by SkellerDweller06 on Jan 19, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

You make good points here.

One place I still see justified anger is the BoT’s complete disinterest in hearing Paterno’s side before firing him. Like Juggernitt stated: there’s NOTHING (??) he could have said to change their minds? I suspect he’s an “at will” employee and can be fired without just cause if they desire, but it just strikes me as cowardly that not a single BoT member seems to have even spoken to Joe before terminating him.

Spanier, sure. He took their press release and sanitized it. Justified firing IMO.

by coachKofPA on Jan 19, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Not at will, and not fired

He had a contract and tenure. Thus they didn’t really fire him. They just said he couldn’t coach any more.

The decision doesn’t bother me nearly as much as the lack of procedure. They probably would have done the same thing just to bow to public pressure, but at least let Joe explain himself. It’s the American way, if nothing else.

I’m more concerned with the precedent this sets for the future.
What if some tenured faculty criticized the board or got involved with something super political? Could they just silence him by saying "you’re still tenured, but we’re terminating your classes/research? That’s no good.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 19, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Yes, this is an important point

We need to hold oursevles to a higher standard than the people we criticize. As I said above, I don’t really blame the board for how they handled this prior when the story broke. My criticisms stem from their actions since then.

Having said that, reasonable people can disagree about how the board handled it before the release of the GJ presentment, and there is nothing wrong with debating that. Let’s just make sure we are self-consistent and don’t hold the board to a standard that we don’t hold others to.

That which we are, WE ARE...PENN STATE.
Forever.

by Nittany_Ryan on Jan 19, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, keep in mind at the time they fired Joe, they had two conflicting roles

Manage the image of the single most important Penn Stater in this history of the University, even though he’s put them in a position where he has essentially told his employers, in a time of great duress, when and how he will leave…

..and also manage the image of the university in the single most trying and negative time in this history of the University. As I mentioned earlier, Joe would be on paid administrative leave right now, just like everyone else, if he would not have tried to publicly make his own call on his own employment status. The simply could not have Joe on the field on Saturday.

They should have had Ganter try to get him to flip and retire immediately, and only give him the phone number if he refused. That’s what they should have done, and that would have been the right thing to do. I think that they reacted emotionally and were pissed that Joe tried to tell them what to do.

by SkellerDweller06 on Jan 19, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess the difference, to me, is that this was an administrative screw up far more than it was a football screw up

And the BoT is responsible for appointing administrators who are capable of doing their jobs. Joe didn’t select his bosses who, I think we all agree, did far more to create the current situation than anyone else.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 19, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Not really correct

The Athletic department had 3 of the 5 people named in the presentment. This is very much an Athletic Department problem. I didn’t read any horticulture prof’s being accused of anything.

by SkellerDweller06 on Jan 19, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

So true

So many assholes in the media are shoe-horning in all of their gripes with college football, none of which really have anything to do with this.

Joe Paterno’s alleged “power” was not a factor here. It doesn’t require any power to not tell the cops something. Everyone has that power.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 20, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

The 'power' argument

rests the other direction – i.e. so many apologists are pretending Paterno was a mail-room clerk who couldn’t possibly have checked up on anything with his superiors or he’d be fired (some even believe he’d be in legal jeopardy, still, amazingly).

That’s where it’s important to remember who we’re talking about. There is literally no way in hell Joe Paterno was going to get in trouble for checking up on the Sandusky investigation in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2008.

by M1EK on Jan 20, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

literally no way?

Even if somehow the case fell apart, and certain outside people saw that Paterno had gotten involved and printed speculation pieces about how he asserted his influence to get it covered up?

But of course the media would never go on a witch hunt and presume inaccurate things.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 20, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes, literally no way.

Insert Rob Lowe picture here if you must. It was rhetorical. Clearly if Joe spent all his time on a street corner with a sandwich board of aurabass-like bold ranting nonsense, he’d be at risk of getting fired.

But just as clearly – he would not have been fired for following up. That claim is just ridiculous – it’s insulting to the intelligence of both those who make it and those who believe it.

by M1EK on Jan 20, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

*Sigh* I'll post this one more time hoping you can grasp it.

Curley testified at one of the hearings (don’t remember if it was the GJ or the perjury pre-trial) that after he made the decision on what actions to take, he circled around and informed Spanier, Curley MM and Joe of his decision. At this point everyone involved saw it as case closed.

We can argue all we want about whether Schultz made the right choice with the information at hand. That’s a whole different topic that I don’t want to get into today for my own sanity. But please understand, there was no need to “check up.” Because the issue had been handled. If, in 2005, Joe said to Schultz “hey Schultzy what’s going on with that Sandusky thing?” Schultz would have said “Nothing, we closed that things years ago, and I talked to you when we did so.”

by ppfcpp on Jan 20, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This is true right? that Curley approached Joe about their decisions.

Then the whole, “Joe should have at least followed up with somebody” theory to bed. 1. He followed up with McQuery, who claimed everything was OK with him, and 2. If Curley followed up with Joe, its a really a moot point that Joe should have followed up with Curley/Schultz. What more could you possibly ask from Joe with this?

by BRJ75 on Jan 20, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Supposedly, It's in the testimony

This is what has been posted in other threads. It is suposedly from the Grand Jury Transcripts. I’m trying to source that (no one has actually linked to any proof, it’s just been posted a few times." I’d like to make sure it’s accurate before I keep using it, but I’m having a hard time finding the actual transcripts. If anyone knows where I can find them,let me know and I’ll look for the source.

Tim Curley: … Then, to the best of my recollection, I circled back around and informed the president of my actions and then Coach Paterno, Mr. McQueary. I guess that’s the people.

This would lead me to believe Joe was told the same thing as MM,

by ppfcpp on Jan 20, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Im sure aurabass probably has the transcripts somewhere

But he’s currently getting reprimanded by the powers that be.

by BRJ75 on Jan 20, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

FYI, I found it

It’s from page 182 of the Perjury pre-trial hearing. And that is the exact quote.

by ppfcpp on Jan 20, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for finding that, and yes there it is in black and white

It only leaves one question really in my mind was how Joe viewed Schultz at the time. I have always found it interesting that MM thought of Schultz as the cops and even the UPPD Chief viewed Schultz has his boss. So how did Joe view him?

by BRJ75 on Jan 20, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

According to Schultz’s testimony, he said that while Curley reported directly to the president, Curley would report to Schultz for day to day activities.

May have been Paterno thought of Schultz as police, or he may have thought of Schultz as Curley’s day to day supervisor. Don’t know.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 20, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I found that the other night when I read the transcript. I could not believe that the quote did not get more play.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 20, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

*Sigh* you are making this way too complicated

Sally Jenkins asked Paterno why he didn’t follow up. He didn’t say “I did follow up”.

Schultz may, also, have lied in his testimony, seeing as how he’s under indictment for, you know, lying in his testimony. Think it’s a possibility?

by M1EK on Jan 20, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Again, way too complicated

In a softball interview set up for the express purpose of telling his story, he said he didn’t follow up.

You all say you trust Paterno’s word more than most other people’s. I agree. Which is why when he said he never followed up, I think you ought to believe him over the guys who are currently indicted for perjury.

by M1EK on Jan 21, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm glad someone else got my point

If Curley already talked to Joe, there’s nothing to follow up about. After M1EK’s responses, I was beginning to wonder if this was harder to grasp than I thought.

by ppfcpp on Jan 21, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

You guys missed the even simpler point

Paterno lined up an interview with an incredibly friendly member of the media who was launching him softball questions and somehow never said “Yeah, I didn’t follow up because Curley had followed up with me”.

Again, in an interview set up to make him look as good as possible, he didn’t say anything about how somebody had followed up with him later.

Instead, his answer was “I should have followed up”. (note: you have to go into the Q&A piece to get this).

You guys are desperately clinging to an interpretation of events which is not supportable by the words of Paterno himself.

by M1EK on Jan 21, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

For what its worth

I just re read the Q & A part, and reading the response, I dont think he answered the question thinking about “follow up” with how we are using it here. From what I can tell, IMO he was thinking “follow up” with the police, not if he followed up with MM or Curley/Schultz.

Of course, that wont mean anything to you because you wont be happy until everybody here is proclaiming Joe Paterno is the devil and the BOT are heroes, like you want.

by BRJ75 on Jan 21, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I just read it as well, and I'm not sure what to think

It’s possible that Joe was implying that he should have pressed for an investigation, or maybe he was talking about the period before Curley closed the loop with him. I’m not really sure. Jenkins also noted that Joe wasn’t always lucid. Maybe he didn’t phrase that the best way?

I’m still not sure I see any reason for Curley to lie about telling Joe about his actions though. There’s nothing to gain from it. But honestly, now I’m not sure what to think.

by ppfcpp on Jan 21, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

You can only criticize Joe for not following up if no action was taken.

You find fault in “not following up” when the person you reported it to forgot to do it, and it results in the situation or action being unresolved.

The fact that Sandusky was banned from bringing kids to campus shows that the situation was acted on. If you’re unhappy with the outcome, that is not due to a lack of “following up”. The whole “following up” argument is a matter of semantics that does not look at the larger picture. Regardless of if Joe followed up, the people responsible for taking action took action.

The argument actually being made by the “following up” criticism is that Joe should have intervened with the way the situation was investigated and made sure it as done properly himself. It’s unfair to hold him accountable for that when he admitted he passed this off to his superiors because he didn’t know how to handle the situation. I think that the hypothetical that had Joe followed up, more would’ve been done is false. Had Joe forced them to look into it more, they still would not have discovered a crime. The only thing that Joe “following up” would have accomplished would have been to implicate him more in the “cover up” that is also being alleged.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 24, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

NY Times v. Washington Post? Who wins? PSU ultimately loses.

What’s disheartening about the NY Times article is that we are not getting anywhere near closure. Instead of the focus being on the real culprits (i.e., Sandusky, Corbett, Noonan, Second Mile, Kelly, media), we are battling each other out to garner sympathy from the public. With this article, the BOT is not admitting that they grossly mishandled both the GJ indictment and firing of JoePa — instead they are lobbying even more fodder for the public to swallow. We’ll never get the spotllight on the real culprits if we continue down this path. PSU will continue to become a TMZ punch line if we don’t take control of the narrative.

by ssd on Jan 19, 2012 12:49 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed. Everyone in the media was clamoring about this lynch mob because of the "victims"

This article does nothing whatsoever to shed light on their understanding of Sandusky, the handling of the 2002 incident, and their feelings on what could have been handled better and should be in the future if this were to come up again. If they did this, it would evoke a feeling that they gave a damn about the victims, and less about their egos and telling “their side”.

Based on the complete mishandling of this whole entire mess by pretty much every single person associated with the BOT/PSU administration, etc, I kind of see why the media backlash was so strong in November. Our leaders look like a bunch of bumbling idiots I wouldn’t trust to lead me on a camping trip, let along handle a scandal of this magnitude.

by mleepsu08 on Jan 19, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Yet another misstep by the BoT

How can they continue to make this situation worse??? They need to just go away!

by tucker170 on Jan 19, 2012 1:41 PM EST reply actions  

I posted this in another thread, but not even bringing myself to read the damn BOT article, this still holds true
If it is believed that only a select few on the BOT’s have supreme power, the fact that these select few individuals that have their own business interests to protect outside of their role as a Penn State BOT member, do they really have Penn State’s best interest at heart, or are they protecting themselves and their business interests.

We’ve already seen them cave to media pressure and public opinion, especially when it was flying in the face of Penn State. So did they act with the best interests of Penn State in mind, or themselves? It really doesnt matter by the simple fact that when Penn State needed them most, they caved to the outside world.

Whats truly scary, and of great concern to me if I were an alum, is that they had their egos stroked following their actions. These individuals wouldnt have gotten to where they were in their business interests if they didnt have some sort of ego. They were rewarded for their actions. From personal experience, up here in WNY, when I turned on our local sports radio channel (who could give two craps about covering college football any other time, but when this all started, all of a sudden they were experts on it), the Buffalo News (who barely covers UB Football) lauded them as heroes, and Im sure most of you will know that Colin Cowherd and Jim Rome (both shows are on between local coverage, unfortunately) lauded them as heroes as well. Im sure this could be said of pretty much anywhere else in the country. But the fact remains, they were looked upon as "Heroes."

So now they can sit there on their marble pedestals and claim "we did what was right, they said we were heroes, and you guys (alumni), sorry, nothing to see here, move along"

If I were an alum of Penn State, one of my biggest concerns would be changing the organization structure of the BOT. If it is allowed to continue as is, Penn State will never be better. The term “denial” could not be used enough when referring to the BOTs, and I have a sneaky suspicion, just gauging by the comments on this thread, the BOT is just motoring along with disregard.

by BRJ75 on Jan 19, 2012 2:41 PM EST reply actions  

So....here we go again

because someone can’t play nice, or just shut the heck up.

by FB6244 on Jan 19, 2012 3:45 PM EST reply actions  

The horse is long dead

and is now on the menu at Hoss’s.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 19, 2012 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Corbett is a Trustee

The govenor of PA is automatically given trustee status. He orchestrated the investigation and it seems to me he timed it for political purposes. Why didn’t he proscute JS 3 years ago when the mother complained to Clinton Cty officials. He waited 3 years and won the govenor’s office in 2010. PSU never should have been indicted, the focus should have been on TSM. Right or wrong I think that is what Spainer was expecting. However once the story broke the way it did the BOT let the media turn it into a circus. If they ran their businesses the way they managed this crisis they would all lose their jobs, why should this be any different?

If the PSU is proven to be innocent along with Curley and Shultz I hope that they go after the AG and Corbett with everything they have (along with Joe). They have ruined the reputations of the University and the individuals representing PSU.

If you haven’t Walter Uhler’s column it is must reading for everyone.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Three-False-Assertions-by-by-Walter-Uhler-120118-176.html

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that it’s difficult to determine whether or not they are genuine"
- Abraham Lincoln

by PsuSam on Jan 19, 2012 4:01 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Outsider's view: BRILLIANT !! (no sarcasm font, this was brilliant).

[as usual, this is meant to be helpful]

it seems to me that someone is giving the BOT (and PSU) some very good media/public relations advice now. this article was absolutely brilliant from the “outside-of-PSU” perspective.

way way way beyond oversimplified, but, imo, here is how it boils down: the BOT agrees with America regarding Coach Paterno (and his firing) and, now America breaths a sigh of relief and says to itself: “thank god not everyone at PSU is a crazy like those rioting students and those nutty [non-BSD] bloggers.”

easiest example: Bennett’s article today over at ESpin. Here’s the link, but I’ll c&p so you can avoid giving them page hits. http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/43984/penn-state-trustees-discuss-paterno-firing

The following is Bennett’s summary:

“The trustees told the Times they had three key reasons for firing Paterno:

1. His failure to do more than merely inform his superiors when alerted to a suspected sexual assault by Sandusky in football locker-room shower 2002.

2. What they saw as his questioning of the board’s authority; remember Paterno’s statement when he said the board shouldn’t spend any time debating his job status?

3. His inability to coach the team effectively while the ongoing controversy swirled around the program."

Like it or not, most non-PSU folks in the USA agree with all of these statements and agree that there was plenty of justification for firing Coach Paterno. So, now, in the most public fashion possible (an interview with the NYTimes), the BOT has come out saying what everyone else in America is saying/thinking.

in the long haul, this is beyond excellent for PSU, for the continuation of PSU as a premier academic institution and for PSU football.

keep in mind, my assessment has nothing to do with whether the BOT should have fired Coach Paterno or whether the BOT did it in the correct way, etc.

we are where we are today on January 19, 2012 with water not merely under the bridge, but having taken out the bridge and half the village. the BOT must fix the damage and this article was a brilliant PR move. folks here on BSD may hate the b*stards and b*ches, but everyone else reading this NYTimes article sees hardworking men and women who had a difficult decision to make who “toughed” through it and did what needed to be done.

by WarBuck46410 on Jan 19, 2012 4:04 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

As an alum I am concerned that the BoT is more concerned with public opinion than what is right.

And just because this thread hasn’t been Godwinned yet: good thing the BoT didn’t live in Nazi Germany.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 20, 2012 2:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Which part are you talking about

Godwinning this thread, or the actions by the BoT?

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin

by AriesGD on Jan 20, 2012 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with everything you said

100%. Doesn’t mean that the article isn’t a crock of PR bullshit, and nothing more than a healthy coat of paint over the dry rot.

Consider this my official declaration of non-support of child molestation.

by 06Lion on Jan 19, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

BOT PR

When it’s time to make themselves look better to the outside world they can manage some PR. I bet they paid a PR firm, on PSU’s dime, to get the interview with the Times. But when it comes to damage control in the time of crisis there is silence and Joe is the scapegoat. Let’s kill the goose that laid the golden egg. PSU is a $5B enterprise and there is no-one in-house or on retainer that can talk the bull by the horns and try to control the media. They would have been better off going to a senior communications major for advice.

There fragile little egos are bruised because students showed up at Joe’s house and he talked with them and chanted We Are Penn State. A grown man actually said that they were offended by that…wow!! They couldn;t let Joe keep his dignity by letting him retire or put him on administrative leave.

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that it’s difficult to determine whether or not they are genuine"
- Abraham Lincoln

by PsuSam on Jan 19, 2012 4:27 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed- it seems like a case of bruised egos.

What I don’t understand is that the BOT had days(!) to come out and say something, and besides Spanier’s not too smart statement, the university stayed completely silent. That silence is what brought the media and the students to Joe’s lawn. The news came out Friday, some admit to not reading the presentment until Sunday when the internet/mass media was reaching hysteria levels, and then announce firing Joe on a Wednesday night. The students were watching their university bow like cowards and they show up at Joe’s lawn to cheer him and support him, he probably led the Penn State chant to make these kids feel better who were clearly sad and upset and disillusioned about what was happening. It came off worse than that, but to use that a reason to firing someone- very cowardly, when they were vastly silent at the time.

by mleepsu08 on Jan 19, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

few thoughts

Pretty much everything has been touched on. Something that still concerns me is that none of the BOT members acknowledge the need to change how the university is governed. They throw Spanier under the bus but don’t mention that Spanier was the only person that was allowed to address the bot with matters of importance. When you limit your information to a single channel, you risk not hearing the entire story. And it happened in the worst possible manner here. As others have said, it won’t matter if bot members are replaced if the lines of communication remain the same.

by moosepsu on Jan 19, 2012 10:20 PM EST via Android app reply actions  

It sort of reminds me of the governments of Egypt, Libya, etc.

Obviously they are aware that things are not going well and that people are not happy. But they are so tied in to their own power that they aren’t really going to try to help bring about change that is good for everyone, since the status quo is so fucking sweet. It remains to be seen whether they go down swinging, like Gheddafi and get tortured and humiliated before it’s over, or just try to disappear and hope they can live out the rest of their lives in some kind of secluded peace like Mubarek.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 20, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

If I'm a relatively anonymous rich guy

I’m sneaking out the back door of this party the second I get a chance. Why would I want my reputation tied to this scandal at all?

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

A little off-topic

But I was wondering the other day…what if Onorato had beaten Corbett? Would Corbett still be AG? Would he have continued putzing around with the Sandusky case, or brought it to bear eventually as his successor did? Would Onorato have worked better with the Board and made sure it didn’t politically self-immolate?

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 20, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Who knows?

Dan Onarato is a Penn Stater though.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 20, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Though we don’t know exactly where Corbett stands re: Penn State on the spectrum of

<—Hate – Don’t give a fuck – Love —>

We can assume it’s much further left than his politics. It still remains to be seen whether he leverages this scandal to further destroy our (Penn State’s) budget. But who really does know what would be different?

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 20, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

ethics officer

Erickson apparently announced today that they will conduct a search for an ethics officer to report directly to the board. This is a step in the right direction but I think there needs to be a small panel of people that interact with the board (ie reps from faculty and student senate)

by moosepsu on Jan 20, 2012 12:49 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Most likely will hire

Marion Barry, John Street, or Newt Gingrich.

by FB6244 on Jan 20, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably hire a former BoT member

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin

by AriesGD on Jan 20, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Well I am glad we all got the memo to tone down these useless debates.

Dave Joyner still make me want to punch him in the face, if anyone had the joy of listening to his presentation in front of the board. I hate them all.

by FB6244 on Jan 20, 2012 11:16 AM EST reply actions  

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