Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Joe Paterno And Human Actions

STATE COLLEGE, PA - Silence seems apt when nothing makes sense.

"If the most ironclad form of determinism is real, you could not do anything about it anyway, because your anxiety about determinism, and how you would deal with it, would also be determined."

-Steven Pinker, from "The Science of Good and Evil" by Michael Shermer

It didn't occur to me until late Sunday morning why our cultural stories are devoid of the complex personality. I need to care for you to succeed as an author and, frankly, there's just no time. Are you not committing each character to either virtue or villainhood with every line? Well, then you're writing the 2006 version of The Last Kiss. IMDb isn't sure beyond a statistical error if your artwork is better than Road Trip staring Tom Green.

If we can't care about Joe Paterno in the context of narrative, what's the point of sports television when we could just as easily create another reality pawn store show? My personal proof that the former head football coach is even a real person is nothing more than two separate events in which I was, for seconds, within ten feet of the man. And yet, I've been writing about the institution he built for year now.

Paterno was a paramount part of the college football script, and that's why we're talking about him today. But being a script, his role needed established by the storytellers. Drawing up tidy little character developing features in his name was a pretty doable task in 1968. It was intern-level editorializing when Paterno won national championships and institutionalized the Grand Experiment. It turned harmlessly conflicting when Paterno couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt he was young enough to carry on in 2001. It became utterly impossible in November of last year.

Joe Paterno is dead, and I'm still unable to reconcile anything.

Star-divide

How could a man accused of instilling no influence to prevent the worst kind of harm be called the most important influence in the lives of players who didn't even like the guy?

How could a man who cared so very much about Adam Taliaferro and his tragic tale not be seen showing the same public support for child abuse victims in 2002, or at the very least after the Grand Jury report in 2008?

How could a man who suspended former running back Austin Scott the week before his (subsequently dropped) sexual assault charges not banish Sandusky from football buildings after official accusations were made?

How could a man unwilling or unable to ask Mike McQueary for more details also be investigative enough to make a pattern out of unannounced trips to his players' classes to keep track of attendance?

How could a man be so defiantly resilient in the face of his institutional superiors in 2004, yet not have taken control of the Sandusky situation in 2002?

How could a man so well-versed and clearly in love with the classics not see a real life sickening tale staring him in the face, the lead role cast by a man he'd knowing of for decades?

There aren't answers to any of those questions, by the way. Admitting that is not helping resolve my understanding of what just happened.

It's frustrating. What's more so is that there are perfectly reasonable questions -- what exactly did everyone know, what exactly did everyone do, why the hell was Sandusky in the weight room this fall? -- that we aren't likely to have answers to and therefore aren't likely to be able to judge and project upon. Or maybe the specifics don't actually matter. Prohibition was supposed to cure all social ills rather promptly in 1919. A mandate for full information about how the institution of Penn State failed might end with just as much futility.

Either way, we're now living in a Paternoless world where the events just are, because of the conditions that caused them. I'm concerned by the very real possibility that this is going to have to be good enough.

Be sure to become a fan of BSD on Facebook, and follow us on Twitter!

Comment 190 comments  |  3 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I don't get it.

I asked myslef a lot of questions, but it seemed to me the answers were the same as before November.

by FB6244 on Jan 24, 2012 12:14 PM EST reply actions  

Quick Question(s):

1. How do we know that JS was in the gym this past fall before he was arrested? This keeps getting tossed around, but I’ve never seen its source.

2. Per Prohibition: This is completely unrelated to anything here, but was the consumption of alcohol between 1920 and 1933 really as out in the open as the writers of “Boardwalk Empire” make it to be? I just finished the second season this past week and the consumption/sale of it was all over the place, like the Volstead Act wasn’t even in existence. I’m assuming that “BE” is exaggerating this for dramatic effect, but I’m still curious.

Run.

by Bob Sacamano on Jan 24, 2012 12:15 PM EST reply actions  

There was a nice documentary on Prohibition lately

On PBS.
The answer in Atlantic City was yes, it was wide open. The feds didn’t have the manpower to enforce it and the local and state authorities either didn’t want to or didn’t want to expend too many of their limited resources on it.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 24, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks man!

The Ken Burns documentary? I haven’t seen that yet, but I generally like everything that guy does.

Run.

by Bob Sacamano on Jan 24, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah watch it.

But also read “Last Call” by Okrent. Might be the best book I’ve read in like a year.

by Kevin Powers on Jan 24, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

well, I'm not exactly sure what circles you live in

but my guess is somewhat similar to how open people are about marijuana consumption

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 24, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

very similar

it wasnt illegal under the volstead act to possess liquor. It was only illegal to distribute or distill it. So you could flaunt your liquor all you wanted.

by swiggy04 on Jan 24, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Since nobody else seems to remember point one after reading point two...

The best I could do when the rumors about Sandusky being ‘on campus’ in the week prior to the release of the Grand Jury presentment started circulating was to trace them to two uncorroborated blog postings – in other words they’re bullshit as far as I’m concerned.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 24, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I would really like to know how often

he was on campus, around campus, in the weight room, etc.

by FB6244 on Jan 24, 2012 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe Paterno's life is a Greek Tragedy

His life was pretty much a straight ascent — with some highs and lows along the way for dramatic effect — until he reached the absolute pinnacle of coaching: 409 wins. “The minute you think you’ve got it made, disaster is just around the corner.” – Joe Paterno

Once he reached that height, there was only one way to go, and it ended, as it had to, six feet under.

Like any Greek tragedy or good work of art, though, the value of Paterno and his life will ultimately be determined in the eye of the beholder. But my eyes are still confused from the crying (and the LSD).

If Joe Paterno was alive now and the scandal had happened but he was still going to be the head coach of the Nittany Lions in the fall, and you guys asked me to give him a “grade” in a poll (because that’s what’s done around here), I don’t know what grade I’d give him…B? I doubt I’ll ever really know what a “fair grade” for Paterno’s life is, but I bet that in some time, the doubt I have will be less disquieting.

I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.

by spakajewia on Jan 24, 2012 12:18 PM EST reply actions  

Great insight

Thinking that Paterno’s life mirrored the Greek tradegies he revered is as poetic as it is comforting. I hope he saw the past few months in the same way. The romantic, glorious fall of a man whose only fault was being human after a lifetime of superhuman accomplishments.

by tbs5005 on Jan 24, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for this, Kevin

This really sums how I feel about things. I think everybody, no matter what side you came down on, was hoping for some sort of conclusion to this, some answers and clarification as to what exactly happened. I think I’m coming to grips that we may never know more than we do now, and Joe won’t be around to talk about it (if not defend himself). And it bothers me.

"He's a beast. But so am I. So let the beasting begin."

by PSUtopia on Jan 24, 2012 12:25 PM EST reply actions  

Sometimes situations are complex, and being a participant in viewing them

with clouded love and confusion makes it even harder to understand. Religious or not, it’s not really our job as humans to figure out a final judgement on someone besides ourselves. It’s between them and whatever God they may or may not believe in.

We are viewing a situation in hindsight with knowing the whole story or the complexities around it. Joe’s whole life was his focus on his players, education, and his family. I don’t think he maliciously made a decision to not care, he just had other focuses and places he felt comfortable making judgements, and maybe this was an area he didn’t. We really don’t know.

Honestly, we may never know the answers to the questions you posted, and they’re really good ones, but is it selfish to want the answers? I think the only people with a claim to the whole story are the victims. It’s their peace that’s the most important.

by mleepsu08 on Jan 24, 2012 12:27 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Well said.

I said a while back that we would probably never know enough to make some people change their mind. Since then we have learned a little more (Paterno himself saying he did not follow up in the most friendly possible interview setting), yet none of those people have changed their minds, and now there’s 0 chance they ever will.

Paterno was a man who did a lot of good and set some lofty ambitions which I thought were the gold standard for college football. I spent a lot of time over many years defending the truths behind those standards – that they were real, not just PR; that PSU really did graduate most of its players and that most of them actually got an education in the process. Whenever somebody said “everybody does it” in regards to poor academics or NCAA violations, I could always say, “No, not everybody does it. Joe Paterno doesn’t do it”.

Because he didn’t do enough in regards to It, it will be nearly impossible to make that case above. Not that the case is any less true but rather that there’s now a perfect retort that can’t really be argued – yes, he graduated players and cared about the rules, but he had this other thing – this inexcusable inaction – this awful oversight – and as a result you can’t argue the good any more without being forced to either admit the bad or even worse, come off as clueless about it.

Paterno’s good works now can’t be pushed as an example. That’s horrible to have to say, but it’s how I feel.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 12:35 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

What I'm seeing in our fanbase, though

is the urge to paint anybody who sees any of those complications as not worth talking to. Which narrows the audience to a very small subset of the original Joe Choir.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I counted the other day

how many media outlets / columnists were still considered OK by large swaths of our fanbase and ended up with, pretty much, just Sally Jenkins and, if you go all the way down to bloggers, that Walter Uhler guy.

Everybody else I could think of has been attacked for being ignorant or biased because they posted something along the continuum of “sees complications” to things even I think are suck (like SbB).

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

And even Sally Jenkins

is only OK to most of those people because they didn’t read in depth in the Q&As, I’m betting.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Sally Jenkins did Joe no favors

She didn’t ask enough relevant questions. She would have made him look better by pushing harder, not just focusing on his frailty. As a journalist, I found her piece to be mostly bullshit and a huge, huge, disappointment.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 24, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

You are making a big assumption

that in pushing harder she would have uncovered only more exculpatory statements.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

She stated her purpose

as allowing him to tell his story on the record. She did very little editorializing, she just asked him some questions and recorded his answer. There’s certainly a place for that.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 24, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

the fact that Joe could have rehearsed answers to these questions that painted him in a perfect light

but instead went out there and was honest with people shows to me that 1) he is remorseful of what happened, but also that 2) he didn’t intentionally cover things up because he wanted to protect anything, but rather things wound up getting brushed aside because certain people didn’t pursue the allegations and he didn’t follow up aggressively enough.

I sensed regret in how things played out, but not regret in his actions at the time (hindsight being something different)

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 24, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

That article was awesome

I can only hope to become half the man that Paterno was.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Jan 24, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but

none of the people who insisted that they were reserving judgement until they found out whether Joe followed up have changed anything now that they have learned he didn’t follow up.

And not just “aggressively enough”. He said he didn’t follow up at all. In his own words, in the most friendly venue possible.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I disagree

I’ve changed my mind, and I was one of those reserving judgement.

I now find myself similarly aligned to what jesse. said. Paterno isn’t blameless, but his blame is so far on the left side of the scale that I won’t vilify him.

I’m still attempting to sort through the nuances. This isn’t black and white and it never will be.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Jan 24, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Then I believe you owe me

an apology. Or at least a “you know what? You might have been right, and it might not have been an accident”.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't agree with you

Just because I’ve changed my mind, doesn’t mean that I think it might not have been an accident.

In fact, I whole heartedly disagree that this was anything other than a mistake in judgement.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Jan 24, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

And a mistake

That I think every other person would have made.

In fact, I think most people wouldn’t have even done as much as Joe did do.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Jan 24, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

You misunderstood me

I was right, and it wasn’t by accident. I made a case based on what you would have to believe had happened in order to believe that Joe had followed up, and that it was a pretty unlikely series of things to all be true.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, enough. Everyone.

We’re not tolerating this bullshit argument for the 9,389th time today. Everyone stop.

by Chris Grovich on Jan 24, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Seriously

can we create another blog specifically for these rehashed arguments so I don’t get tricked into thinking there may be new and noteworthy opinions on a post with a large amount of comments?

BTW, great job with the site, specifically with the recent events, can’t imagine how tough it is.

WE'RE DANCIN!!!

by bigs26 on Jan 24, 2012 8:07 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This might be the best idea I’ve heard in weeks. Easy rec.

by Kevin Powers on Jan 24, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 24, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Have you considered

that maybe you’ve made your point? Without agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion, I think we’re all well aware of it by now.

It’s like an old message poster a while back who ripped the Big Ten refs every single day for being biased towards Michigan. We get it, we agree or we don’t, but can you come up with some new material?

by PSU Mudder on Jan 24, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I've considered it

but when I see people continue to post wrong things over and over again, I realize I have not made the point.

I find it curious how you have not made this suggestion to those who disagree with my opinion, yet keep posting stuff about how the media is biased or ignorant. Are we not aware of their opinions by now too?

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

In that regard

and maybe I’m not paying close enough attention to the discussions as they drag out, but I’m not seeing a clear instance of one single poster on the opposite side of your argument continually showing up in thread after thread to jump in the fray.

People are going to be wrong on the internet. After you tell them, you have to let it be.

by PSU Mudder on Jan 24, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

See past points I've made

about # of readers versus # of participants.

I disagree with your other contention as well but will let it drop for now.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate to do this again...but

it just keeps getting left out.

When people make comments about “following up” can they also finish their phrase to make it clear who they are talking about Joe “following up” with?

It’s pretty apparent that some people think asking MM if he was satisfied with the outcome does not constitute following up, to others it does and that makes a very big difference in the interpretation of events.

I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD

Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.

by bconway6 on Jan 24, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct

The “not following up at all” is a complete lie.

by FB6244 on Jan 24, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

Following up with MM, assuming it happened, is not sufficient, because MM’s position in the organization was such that he could be reasonably assumed to be too scared to speak up if he thought the investigation had been bogus.

So by following up, I mean the only follow up that matters – to the people with actual legal responsibility.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

See thats fine.

I can understand the merits of the opinion. Reasonable people may disagree on that opinion for various reasons I don’t wish to get into here, but that is a more complete statement than simply asserting “He didn’t follow up” repeatedly.

I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD

Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.

by bconway6 on Jan 24, 2012 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

There are no merits to that opinion.

McQuery was not ‘too afraid’ to go to Joe in the first place. Until there’s some believable EVIDENCE of intimidation, there is no reason to believe McQuery was afraid to tell Joe the truth about what was happening at any time. None.

by PSUEnrg02 on Jan 25, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

there's also the whole part about Curley testifying that he followed up with Paterno.

Since he’s accused of perjury, who knows what he says is true or not, but it is still out there. That wouldn’t have been Paterno following up, per se, but it would have been a follow up between Paterno and someone that mattered.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 24, 2012 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

This point has been made repeatedly

and for some reason keeps getting ignored. I was one of the people that pulled the quotes right out of the testimony. Follow-ups occurred, right back down the chain of command. Anyone that has been insisting otherwise for months should really consider apologizing.

by cs93 on Jan 24, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

annnnd *EXHALE*

after reading the mods pleading below, I agree wholeheartedly. Sorry I posted – this is not helping any of us right now.

by cs93 on Jan 24, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Dont be sorry

that was information I was unaware of.

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN

by skarocksoi on Jan 25, 2012 7:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not assuming that

It’s simple math. When you’re close to the bottom, a series of even random movements will probably move you up.

It’s clear that a huge portion of the public and media are hell-bent at filling in the unknown bits (not to mention the bits already covered in the testimony) of the story with the version that makes Joe look as bad as possible. Therefore, anything he says to clarify those gaps will, on the whole, make him look a bit better. Nowhere to go but up.

Granted, his answers might (and in a few cases did) scuttle the assertions of those who want to paint him as totally perfect and blameless, but there aren’t too many people out there like that. You seem to think they’re legion, but outside this board, I haven’t seen any.

For Joe, the value of a lot more questions would be that he could show that for every decision that he made in 2002 (insofar as he can remember them) he had a reason that seemed like a good reason at the time and was not aimed at facilitating child-rape. Obviously, a lot of the things he believed to be true at that time – for example, that Schultz was competent at his job – turned out to be false and it’s fair to ask whether or not he, as head coach of the football team, ought to have known them to be false. But he could at least explain his motivations.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 24, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

large swaths of our fanbase have made a running tally?

or a handful of people have made individual and separate comments on a handful of outlets? And in what context? In their treatment of reporting of the scandal, or in their supposed “memorial” segments? I know you have this thing about addressing specific individual people about their shortcomings, but I’m still going to point out a glaring problem you have: you make generalizations of large groups of people based on the actions of a few, and then apply those generalizations specifically to everyone within that group. I don’t know if it is intentional, or if you are just incapable, but that is besides the point, it is still a problem.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 24, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Generalizations get a bad name

You can’t have useful discussions about most things without engaging in them at some level.

And I find the characterization of the commentariat here as generally thinking the media is some combination of ignorant and biased as a supportable, reasonable, generalization.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

for what it is worth

while I dislike much of what ESPN is put out, I do think it is a bit ridiculous when people blame every member of ESPN for the Syracuse/Fine tapes, and calling them hypocrites because of the way they lambasted Paterno. I still don’t like most of those media personalities for their treatment of Paterno, but I doubt any of them had a clue what was going on at Syracuse.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 24, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but

The top Brass at ESPN has made a company-wide decision to (mis)handle that the way they have. The company as a whole deserves blame.

But yeah, I admit I’m still following a few ESPN baseball writers. I think those guys are great.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 24, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

the company as an entitiy deserves blame

but the individual members do not…at least not for the Syracuse situation (unless, of course, they were involved, and then yes, they do deserve the blame)

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 24, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

ive said it before

but the PSU and Syracuse scandals were similar in accusation only. The Sandusky scandal was so much further along both in information and organization. The Bernie Fine thing was just alleged victims of throwing stuff out there at the time. The fact that half these alleged victims of Bernie Fine have now recanted their stories, admitted to doctoring evidence, and admitting to flat out making it up shows where the Syracuse allegations stood at the time they were announced to the public.

Not that I like how ESPN handled Joe Paterno’s role in everything, mind you. But I dont find their reporting the Jerry Sandusky scandal hypocritical to how they reported the Bernie Fine scandal.

by swiggy04 on Jan 24, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem that I have

is that ESPN and others are judging Joe Paterno by hindsight and the totally of accusations and not what HE knew at the time, which doesn’t seem like more than what ESPN had on Fine.

"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012

by Paige2PSU on Jan 24, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

But you forget...

ESPN says they aren’t the police and have no obligation to do the police’s job for them.

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last"

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 24, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

im talking about the scandals as a whole

they arent similar at all except in name. I agree about JoePa, its easy for people to sit in judgment and tell you which decision THEY would make knowing how each decision would turn out.

But I really don’t think ESPN had some sort of agenda to under-report the Bernie Fine scandal, I just think there was far less information out there to report.

by swiggy04 on Jan 24, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

unless im misreading you

i was addressing the idea that ESPN had an agenda to purposely under-report the Syracuse allegations. Not that they had some form of pre-determined agenda against Paterno.

by swiggy04 on Jan 24, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

My opinion.

Is that ESPN is an enormous corporation owned in it’s entirety by an even larger, more soulless corporation. Their only agenda is profit. There is never an ulterior motive, not is it a grand conspiracy.

They make money. That’s what they want to do. That’s who is reporting the information, and that is the “everybody else” that’s supposed to make me feel stupid, or as an enabler of child sexual abuse.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 24, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Where's the damn picture?

jtothetweet
They don't even bind feet in China anymore, mostly.

by jtothep on Jan 24, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, snizzap

First time I’ve been around the vicinity of deleted portions of threads.

Kudos to you, Sir Dot, for being the culprit, allowing me mere instigator role.

jtothetweet
They don't even bind feet in China anymore, mostly.

by jtothep on Jan 24, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately results oriented thinking is very hard to overcome.

I’d like to do a fanpost about this, but I’m not sure I’ll have the time in the next few weeks.

When playing poker, it is entirely possible to do everything right and still loose many many hands in a row. Just because you make the right decision does not guarantee you will win that particular hand. Sometimes the unexpected just happens.

Often probability and chance are not given the proper respect they deserve in the grand scheme of things. It is not possible to estimate accurate probabilities in these types of situations, but in any situation where there is more than one possible outcome, the possibilities of each of those outcomes are somewhere between 0 and 1.

The tricky part is trying to formulate what to do next such that you give yourself the best chance to do the right thing. Unfortunately you can take every chance to give yourself the best odds of having done the right thing, and it can still turn out badly.

I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD

Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.

by bconway6 on Jan 24, 2012 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

The tricky part is trying to formulate what to do next such that you give yourself the best chance to do the right thing.

It’s a pity nobody wants to talk about that. I wrote a 2,200 word post 10 days ago, numerous recs, hundreds of comments…

No discussion of what I set forth as an idea to make sure this never happened again. The failure to have that discussion anywhere has disillusioned me a great deal.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 24, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I wrote a long piece on my Facebook page because I was tired of hateful posts from people who know jack about the situation

I ended it like this

Every day, hundreds of cases of abuse go unreported because someone is afraid to say something, or embarrassed, or is not sure what the proper steps or, or is worried they can get sued if they were wrong. Education and outreach are needed to overcome this. Give to an organization like RAINN or Joyful Heart if this upsets you. But spreading more hate is not going to help anyone. And if you suspect something, report it.

People are spending so much time hating on what Joe “didn’t do” but they will never do jack shit themselves.

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010

by letsgopsu on Jan 24, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It would be nice

If instead of just being angry, people channeled their anger into something positive like you mentioned above.

Maybe somewhere there’s a fan base that did this in the face of an unspeakable horror. Surely if there was, we’d have heard about it by now.

by PSUPing on Jan 24, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I bet you and I would disagree

On many things as they relate to sexual assault. But I’ll have the conversation, with you, or anybody else that cares to have it.

This shit has been nothing but masturbatory finger pointing for nearly three months now. No progress made. None.

Joe Paterno’s dead. Now what? Problem solved? What do you want to do now?

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 24, 2012 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

well, I think sexual assault is bad

I think most people who are assaulted don’t report it. I think that people who have tried to make money off it have made it more difficult for the real victims who often have their own motives, background and behavior questioned. I think that many people turn a blind eye because they think it is none of their business, or they don’t want to get involved etc.

And you are right, we have seen nothing from the university or Second Mile on measures put in place to avoid this.

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010

by letsgopsu on Jan 24, 2012 8:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

FWIW, I thought PSU SVU was a good idea.

…or maybe I’m confusing your post with another one.

Either way, I think the problem is that we aren’t ready to move on to the ‘how do we prevent this from happening again’ phase, and as for myself, I know I won’t be ready until at least the Freeh report is released. We’re still trying to get our heads around exactly what did happen, and only once that happens will we be able to think of what to do next.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 24, 2012 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm willing to have this discussion.

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last"

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 24, 2012 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I think theres time to get there

if you are talking about child sexual abuse at large. I think things are too personal with things in the news still to get beyond this particular situation to the greater questions.

On the other hand I don’t know if there is enough room, either in terms of pages to fit typed characters onto or airwaves to adequately take on this subject in a public way. It can’t happen on the pages of CNN etc.

This is more of a topic that requires vast amounts of careful study and a foundation to tackle it in a more academic way, like you described in your fanpost if I remember correctly.

I meant to point out a more general problem with results oriented thinking. If you happen to get into a car accident and die on your way to work, was it a bad decision to have driven to work? That type of thing.

I’m sorry, but blanket statements are proven false 99% of the time, and if you make a blanket statement about college football, there’s a good chance that one exception will be Joe Paterno. - AdamShell @ BSD

Also; Always carry a bottle opener and the beer will provide itself.

by bconway6 on Jan 24, 2012 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey dot, I'm with you on this

Anyone who prefers deterrence to good ol’ retribution should. Anyone who wants to make the world a better place and not just satisfy their bloodlust would want this.

Just a few practical steps that I can take with me wherever I go: 1. Understand the problem of child sex abuse more thoroughly, 2. Make sure any place I work or volunteer does what they can to educate and structure policies and rules to effectively deal with any issues that do arise.

I am not a politician, and most of them probably don’t care all that much about this unless there’s a camera in front of them, but those are something everyone can do. There are huge institutional issues. There are huge cultural issues. But people need to want to be proactive, and it doesn’t seem enough people are ready for that yet.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 24, 2012 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I've been wondering

about the differences in state reporting laws . . . not only how they differ, but the impact on identifying and stopping abuse. What are the views of child welfare professionals and those in the justice system?

I’ve suggested to several reporters that they could do some good by looking at these issues, but all I get is crickets.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby

by nps on Jan 24, 2012 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Reporters try to pin things on faceless politicians every day...

and all they hear is crickets. Why would a discussion of the laws covering an already uncomfortable topic be any different?

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 25, 2012 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

It is a supportable generalization

However, I think the problem is how you apply it.

The media is biased and ignorant of many issues. They are experts on nothing (a generaliztion in itself, though mostly true) and are required to present accurate facts on such a wide variety of subjects that it is overwhelming. They are also required to do this in increasingly smaller time scales.

The best journalists tend to be of the investigative kind. They work for months or even years on a story digging to uncover every kernel of truth and fact. They don’t have the same 30 minute deadline (an exageration, though not by much) that the majority of journalists do. However, it isn’t the investigative journalists that are writing stories on the nightly news.

If you don’t see the inherent ignorance and bias that this creates in the media, especially the 24 hour news media that dominates the headlines today, then you either aren’t looking, or are being willfully ignorant yourself (and to be clear, I’m saying you as a plural, not calling out you, M1EK). I’ve been overwhelmingly skeptical of the news for some time now. Almost every time I see a story in which I have a reasonable knowledge of the subject matter, my skepticism is confirmed as important details are missed.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Jan 24, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

One way to look at this

is that every time Sara Ganim makes a report, if it doesn’t support the pro-Paterno narrative, notice how many people will say “she really messed this one up”.

And then when she makes a report which reinforces the pro-Paterno narrative, the same people will cite her.

When you see that that often, it’s clear that the measuring stick has nothing to do with bias or ignorance or investigation – it has to do with whether they post things that the person wants to hear.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I've not seen anyone say that she really messed this one up

Although thats besides the point.

The point, at least for me, is that by and large news coverage is biased and ignorant. Applying that to this situation is easy because I am comfortable in assuming that I have a much clearer and more informed understanding of the situation than 99% of the people reporting it. It allows me to weed out the bullshit. I have my own inherent biases, but that doesn’t invalidate my opinions, particularly if I’m more informed than the news sources that I cite.

You do touch on a good point at the end- people are attracted to what they want to hear. We’re so conditioned as a society to accept editorilization in our every day news, that we forget whats real news and what isn’t. So we tend to choose news sources that match our worldview, rather than challenge it. But making that point in and of itself inherently recognizes that bias and ignorance exist in news media.

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Jan 24, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Ganim has messed up

It’s bullshit to say that we (because certainly not I) are calling her out only when she fails to be “pro-Paterno.”

She at least seems to always check her sources and get her facts, by themselves, correct.

My problem with her is that in a few cases she’s drawn connections without explaining what she’s implying, which leads one to think she’s being deliberatedly vague so as not to reveal that the implication is bullshit. Like when the Patriot pointed out that Joe invested in some things that Second Mile board members invested in. So what? If she’s implying that this gave Joe motivation to cover-up something that would make Second Mile look bad, that’s dumb. A) because he didn’t cover this up B) even if he did, protecting his own program would obviously be far more important to him than the reputation of some guys he met a few times. It’s just silly.

Also, in a few cases she’s run stories that are really just the half-baked opinion of some “expert” that really has no special knowledge of the situation. Like that one where she interviewed some PR flak who thinks it was unlikely that Erickson hadn’t read the March story on Sandusky in the Patriot. That was stupid. Just because one of a million PR flaks in America thinks something doesn’t make it true. She might as well have interviewed some crazy homeless person.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 24, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

by the same measure

any time you (and I’m not using the royal you) see someone say Ganim (or others) messed something up, or any time they report something which reinforces the pro-Paterno narrative, you will point out those instances, but not when people do find fault with things that appear in the pro-Paterno narrative, or when people agree with aspects of stories that don’t shine Paterno in the softest light.

When you see that that often, it’s clear that the measuring stick has nothing to do with bias or ignorance or investigation – it has to do with whether they post things that fit your narrative.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 24, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Not buying it.

I said Sally Jenkins was a friendly venue, not biased, for instance.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Stop dealing in absolutes.

Every media story, regardless of source or author, should be judged on its own merits. If Paterno taught us anything it should be this. You don’t generalize every piece of someone’s work when making a criticism. You criticize the individual piece.

I can only speak for myself, but when I criticize an article or story online, it’s because I see there are details that are either wrong or omitted to fit a larger narrative. This is not what should be done by objective journalists. All the facts should be presented, and they should be validated prior to making them. It goes both ways, so I’m not trying to claim that you are the only person dealing in absolutes, but that’s the problem with generalizations. When you start to generalize things, you place blame and criticism on things that do not merit them on their own, and suddenly things are only being painted in black and white.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 24, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

If they ever tell my story let them say that I walked with giants. Men rise and fall like the winter wheat, but these names will never die. Let them say I lived in the time of Bradley, tamer of offenses. Let them say I lived in the time of Paterno.

by SarcasmJam on Jan 24, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

The GIS for this phrase mostly sucked, but I kinda dug Philosoraptor

Especially his spelling.

jtothetweet
They don't even bind feet in China anymore, mostly.

by jtothep on Jan 24, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Even if he is a philosopher

He is still a raptor.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 24, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Clever girl

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN

by skarocksoi on Jan 24, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

If you see that one on your screen

It’s already two late

/2 raptors beside you

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 24, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Raptors, right?

I think the Raptor is just trying to distract you. He absolutely wants to eat you.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 24, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Won't be the first time

I’ve been eaten by a raptor after being distracted by an Abo slut.

jtothetweet
They don't even bind feet in China anymore, mostly.

by jtothep on Jan 24, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Can I just say that I closed out this window

about an hour ago disgusted with BSD’s commentary.

Needless to say I didn’t realize we were only a few steps away from a discussion on Raptors. Love you guys.

"Today we have experienced a great loss. This loss is incomparable to what we gained from coach Paterno." - Mike Wallace

by PSUinBOSSton on Jan 24, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

That's the thing about 'Ignore'

It’s got a shelflife. At some point you gotta switch up to Volume-to-Volume, at whatever segue juncture becomes available.

jtothetweet
They don't even bind feet in China anymore, mostly.

by jtothep on Jan 24, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't even know what a Sith is

\has only seen one Star Wars movie

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010

by letsgopsu on Jan 24, 2012 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I haven't seen any for over a decade

I don’t support terrorism

It's Great! To be! A Tennessee Vol!

by falconnuke on Jan 24, 2012 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm not sure it's fair to paint the "fanbase" that way

some commentors in one corner of the internet might fit that description, but that’s it.

I wouldn't trust old rooster me neither.

by spakajewia on Jan 24, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Except that he DID 'follow up'

and he did it multiple times over a period of months. He made a decision to stay out of the investigation because he didn’t want to be seen as attempting to influence it. So he left Curley and Schultz alone, but gave McQuery multiple opportunities to tell him if he was uncomortable with how it had been handled. McQuery has given no indication that he ever told Joe that Curley or Schultz had handled it improperly.

So I still fail to see Joe’s ‘inexcusable inaction.’ He took the actions he thought most appropriate given the information he had at the time.

by PSUEnrg02 on Jan 24, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Black and white thinking

I don’t know whether’s simply a lack of intelligence, or some sort of defense mechanism, or if it’s the way our society is set up, but there are so many people who can’t see the nuances in life. I never understand this. Life is complicated. People are complicated. It’s just as stupid to call Joe a saint and think he did no wrong as it is to call him a child rape enabler who should rot in hell.

Kevin-you’re right. It’s frustrating. And, ultimately, you nailed where my disappointment in Joe’s handling of Sandusky lies. He seemingly did the bare minimum, and that’s so contrary to what he’s been about his whole life/career. Michael Wilbon made a good point yesterday (I know-amazing) that Joe has been on the right side of so many things in his life, and yet he seemed to be on the wrong side here.

Who knows-maybe it’s a good thing. We learned a lot from the good Joe, now we need to learn from his mistakes.

by speedomike on Jan 24, 2012 12:38 PM EST reply actions  

not specifically talking about this situation

but I’ve never been a fan of firing people for isolated, non-malicious mistakes.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 24, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

isolated non-malicious mistakes

is one, simplistic, way to put it.

More complicated ways to put it are noting that in a sense, that mistake was made anew every day from 2002-2008, for instance.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

again, I wasn't talking about this situation.

That is why I put that I wasn’t talking about this situation. It doesn’t really apply because of what you said. But there are many other situations where one, isolated, non-malicious mistake is made and people are terminated for it. But hey, good job reading within the context.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 24, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

That's nonsense

It wasn’t a new mistake every day unless they had new information everyday.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 24, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

Not following up is a new mistake every day you still don’t do it, is what I mean, and what many others have meant.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It's one...

mistake with large, lasting unintended consequences.

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last"

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 24, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

You can view it either way.

Each day you put something off you should have done can be viewed as a new mistake, or it can be viewed as making the original mistake even bigger. Either way, it is not one small mistake.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Small mistakes...

can have large consequences.

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last"

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 24, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

My problem with your thinking M1EK

is that you’ve always been willing to assume Paterno knew quite a bit about the situation and that he did not have reason to think it had been handled appropriately. I’m not saying this to provoke an argument, and I will certainly read your response later but I have to get back to work now, but you stating that he made the mistake everyday assumes he didn’t think it had been investigated and handled.

Was it a mistake to think that? Maybe. In hindsight, definitely. But if that’s the mistake he made, then he only made it one time.

Otherwise, you’re saying that Joe knowingly allowed the administration to bury this. That’s a hell of a lot worse of an accusation. And I don’t think that fits at all with the actual information we do have.

by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 24, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Nope.

I’ve been really clear on this. Please don’t spread false narratives.

I have said that when Paterno saw Sandusky continuing to be on campus and knew that he was continuing to work with kids, that then he should have followed up and asked why that was being allowed to happen.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not trying...

to be argumentative, but how many times did Paterno see Sandusky around campus? It’s not clear to me. Sandusky spent his time on campus in the weight room area. An area, I’m under the impression, that Paterno rarely ever spent any time. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think Paterno saw him on a daily basis, which the narrative seesm to imply.

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last"

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 24, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't spread a false narrative...

I spoke to the narrative that, by reading your countless posts, you seem to be behind. In order to believe Joe should have followed up more, you have to assume he he either shouldn’t have accepted what the administration did given what he knew or that he was complicit in a cover-up. I have not seen you say that Joe actively covered this up, so I have to assume that you think Joe knew a lot about the situation. And if Joe knew a lot about the situation and therefore shouldn’t have accepted what the administration did, then he either is morally bankrupt or a party to a cover up (if they all had a lot of information, then you can’t call this a misjudgment anymore… everyone knows what to do with strong evidence against a child molester… it has to be a cover-up).

So, it isn’t a false narrative, it is a series of logical conclusions. If you assume that Joe knew a lot about the situation, then he is either a monster or participated in covering it up (and again, a monster). This is exactly why people react so angrily to you.

My point stands. If Paterno thought the situation had been handled (and McQueary didn’t seem to indicate to Paterno otherwise according to his own testimony), then Paterno had no reason to re-assess that situation. Especially if Sandusky was not hanging around Lasch building with children anymore (which McQueary also said, he never saw again). He made the mistake of thinking some vague accusations he received had been handled appropriately by people that should have known more about handling this than he did. His mistake was not in following up. His mistake was in trusting that what the people above him had decided was appropriate.

by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 24, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for writing this, Kevin

I was going to post something similar but thought it was too soon and that a lot of Penn Staters might take it the wrong way.

Complex public figures, and well written fictional characters for that matter, always carry internal conflict which cause them to make dubious decision. Joe Paterno, for all the he good represented, was not infallible to being human. He may have felt loyal to Sandusky. He may not have understood the true ramifications of the situation. Who knows?

Since his death, I read a lot of praise for his work and dedication. Fans told stories of chance meetings, players praised his virtuous leadership. All of which are well deserved.

But at the same time I cannot not ignore faults in his statements to the press, his side of the story of the scandal, and even some of the vitriol against him by a former player and ex-Penn State employee. I just cannot not dismiss them.

The way Joe Paterno has been presented all these years made him too perfect. And because of that, we think we know him. That’s why fictional heroes are so 2 dimensional these days. That’s why politicians present themselves as one ideal instead of a complex one. Because it’s easier for the public to understand.

On another note: I met the Coach briefly. Had cell phone cameras been invented then, I would have proof that I existed in the same world as he. But I didn’t even own a camera then so alas I just have the memory. And now I’m just writing about it and what I think I know about him. Which is very little.

by Mr. Rosewater on Jan 24, 2012 12:51 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

*molded boys into men

I should probably read a little closer before posting

Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?

by psuphysicist on Jan 24, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe the first rendition is partly true. Sometimes we have to see ourselves

less as being in control and powerful (man) to what we really are (boy) man-in-waiting.

by be4time on Jan 24, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Tone-deaf

What do you think the retort is going to be to “SCOREBOARD, BITCH”?

Hint: It’s probably going to include number of kids molested by Sandusky.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes.

Absolutely true.

Still doesn’t address the tone-deafness of saying “SCOREBOARD, BITCH” and expecting to win with that.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Hi!

I posted some links for you in the wrestling thread.

jtothetweet
They don't even bind feet in China anymore, mostly.

by jtothep on Jan 24, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Most...

people that history deems “great” had “moral” failings. It is interesting what time does to those failures.

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last"

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 24, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

truth

I think marital fidelity is people #1 moral issue. Now look at how many people history deems as great were faithful. In fact, just look at the NBA.

by swiggy04 on Jan 24, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Just be a man

Stan: You know, somebody once said, "Don’t try to be a great man, just be a man."
Jesus: Who said that?
Stan: You did, Jesus.
Jesus: You’re right, Stan. Thank you, boys!
Kyle: Wow, did he say that in the Bible?
Stan: Nah, I saw it on Star Trek.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 24, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

The ethics of Star Trek

a class I took at Penn State. It related the three main characters of Star Trek (Kirk, Spock, and Bones) to the Super Ego, Ego, and Id of Freudian thinking. TNG probably focuses things on a bit of a different framework.

I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN

by skarocksoi on Jan 24, 2012 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Why...

Did I always get boring classes? What the hell was I doing when selecting courses?! Econ…nuts.

by iamkatemcg on Jan 25, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it is unfair..

to make Joe Paterno own Jerry Sandusky’s sins. His own sins are enough.

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last"

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 24, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

There are two kinds of people in the world.

The people who overlook Joe’s mistakes and the people who overlook Joe’s accomplishments

and everybody else.

Sandwich is the best
Bread use aside from making
Russians stand in line

by WorldBFat on Jan 24, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

one set isn't worth anyone's time

Sandwich is the best
Bread use aside from making
Russians stand in line

by WorldBFat on Jan 24, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Oooh, a logic puzzle

‘Two kinds of people’ and three groups named after that. Then only one ‘set’ is worth time, but what does a set refer to in a group of three or two?

WorldB, keepin it deep.

jtothetweet
They don't even bind feet in China anymore, mostly.

by jtothep on Jan 24, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Based on what happened in the MGoBlog discussion,

I thought the mods were going to put this shit to bed for the rest of the week? I can only ignore so much stupidity, repetition and insistance.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 24, 2012 1:42 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

There was an MGoBlog discussion?

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last"

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 24, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I just.

read through it. Seems to be the same discussion we have here every day over and over. Slightly lessed informed on the nuances of it all, but generally the same one.

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last"

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 24, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

A good chunk was removed.

And I’m using the term "good" in reference to quantity, certainly not in describing the quality.

Consider this my official declaration of non-support of child molestation.

by 06Lion on Jan 24, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh really?

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last"

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 24, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed. Is the day of Joe's viewing really the time and place for this discussion?

Can his family bury him in peace before we get into this tireless debate again.

by mleepsu08 on Jan 24, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

and if we all care so much about Joe's mistake and our take on it.

maybe we can back away from our keyboards and go out in the world and volunteer for victims of child abuse and maybe better ourselves by understanding the complex issue without debating someone else’s legacy non-stop.

by mleepsu08 on Jan 24, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed and with all due respect....

NOW is not the time to be discussing what Joe could or should have done…we’re in the process of paying our final respect to JoePa…I don’t know about others, but my emotions are still raw thinking about what the last 3 months must have been like for Joe and his family. Can’t we give them some respect by not dredging up the most controversial chapter of his life?

by ssd on Jan 24, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure.

Go tell the 20 other people on your side who have posted aggressively since the last time I wrote anything, while I’m sitting on my hands trying not to respond, and who will view my lack of response as somehow ignoring their points. Please, please, please.

by M1EK on Jan 24, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I just want to make sure we’re all aware that the mods handling this proactively will result in no one being happy about the outcome. I’m hopeful we can all button it up a little, because to be honest this is getting well beyond bearable.

By now you’ve all seen very clearly the people whom you disagree with about passionate topics and fail to come to a resolution with. I’m asking everyone, again, to just not engage in threads involving those personal counter-parts.

by Kevin Powers on Jan 24, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

And I want to point out how sad it is that I was the second person to have to post that image in this thread, and that I was unaware of it to boot.

by Kevin Powers on Jan 24, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Guys, Kevin wrote an interesting and thought-provoking piece

Can we avoid the bullshit that would get this post locked down? Maybe just come together at least until Thursday night?

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 24, 2012 2:00 PM EST reply actions  

Only me and two other people don't hate puppies?

I challenge you all to demonstrate that you hate puppy-haters more than I do.

Go ahead – just try…

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 24, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

As usual, this guy says it best.

(“I made a lot of mistakes in my life,” he said. “But I thought people could see that I tried my best to do the right things. I tried to do the right thing with Sandusky too.”) He was hurt that the program he had spent his life building was in trouble.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/joe_posnanski/01/24/joe.paterno/index.html#ixzz1kPIwxipV

by FB6244 on Jan 24, 2012 2:41 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Loved that

His final words of advice are also very good:
Don’t read Conrad in the Hospital.
MASH is a good show.

Again, I could have told him both of those, but it’s good to remember we can always learn new wisdom, even in our dying days.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 24, 2012 3:26 PM EST reply actions  

^ This deserves many, many more recs.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 24, 2012 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd for all of it

But especially for the last sentence. Having once lived in State College does NOT make you a member of a community. There is more to it than geography.

"WHY IS EVERYONE THE FREAKING STUPID?" BMAN13

by kijana's acl on Jan 25, 2012 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Gave the mods a day to handle this

and they did not.

I apparently know more about Joe Paterno than you, and the 10 or so people who recommended this do, because I know that he would not tolerate this:

might I suggest that you dine this evening on the business end of a Glock 9mm.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

by M1EK on Jan 26, 2012 8:52 AM EST up reply actions  

There is no effect without a cause

and everything is for the good in this best of all possible worlds.

"I think what the university did to him was grossly wrong" -- Mike Ditka

by SubLime on Jan 24, 2012 6:56 PM EST reply actions  

funny, I got unfriended on facebook because I WASN'T hateful about Joe.

If only I was still friends with that person so I could thank them for preventing me having to deal with their asinine comments in the future.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 24, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I got some nice response from a long statement I posted

Mostly from UGA fans from my years in Atlanta.

I said in the statement they could unfriend me if they want, but I don’t know if anyone did. I don’t really care.

"There are too many Irish guys on this team"
Joesph Vincent Paterno
April, 2010

by letsgopsu on Jan 25, 2012 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Joe Pa's legacy

is suffering from the “JoePa Runs Penn State” caricature that has built up over the years. If this exact same set of circumstances played out at some Division III school, no one would even attempt to pin this kind of blame on the head football coach.

I've been downhearted baby, I've been downhearted baby, ever since the day we met . . .

by Joe 96alum on Jan 24, 2012 8:02 PM EST reply actions  

Which just goes to prove..

…who, exactly, it is among us who are the ones elevating Joe to God-like status. The dimwits who try to pin the “You worship Joe Paterno…so SHAME” tag on us are actually the ones ascribing to him omniscience. I don’t know anyone who reveres, respects and covets Joe’s life and accomplishments as “worshiping” him.

The cheap caricature of an ego-driven football coach pulling all the strings in town and twisting his mustache behind the scenes is out of some B-movie. Then again, facts and reality never got in the way of forming an opinion about Joe’s role in this.

by Jitterbug on Jan 24, 2012 8:43 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

With respect...

to your last paragraph, people do it because it is easy and safer. It’s much more unsettling and scary when bad things happen, not because of some grand conspiracy, but simply because people think they do the right thing and isn’t enough.

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last"

by Esteban d' Amur on Jan 24, 2012 11:06 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I love that sentence.
It’s much more unsettling and scary when bad things happen, not because of some grand conspiracy, but simply because people think they do the right thing and isn’t enough.

The characterizations I’ve seen, on both sides, have all tried to form some sort of cohesive narrative. No narrative in real life is ever cohesive.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 24, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Paterno was in league with Kristofferson and Boxcar Willie.

Sandwich is the best
Bread use aside from making
Russians stand in line

by WorldBFat on Jan 24, 2012 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I started to get into an argument with my dental hygienist a few weeks ago...

I eventually had to say, with a mouthful of gauze and suction tube, “it’s just an incredibly complicated situation”. Even if I had been able to speak articulately, I literally could have gone on for hours discussing the nuances of each player’s role in this case. That’s the biggest reason why I haven’t gotten into any deep discussions on the matter outside BSD – there’s far too much to cover in a five minute conversation that is required to fully understand our perspective. You just can’t convey in a matter of minutes what it’s taken years to form in each of us.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 24, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

complicated

That word seems to be the new buzz word for this discussion outside our PSU Family. Those of us who ‘get it, get the real JOE’, we have no complications realizing that he is a man with profound intentions that made an IMPACT, yet a human.

When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck

by ComfortHePuHuTh on Jan 25, 2012 8:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I agree - Joe had just about the simplest involvement of anyone.

He did what he was supposed to do and tried to step back out of the way. With the benefit of hindsight, that wasn’t the best course of action. …but it should have been.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 25, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Well said

I think that’s what is driving a lot of the insanity. People don’t want to believe that stopping child abuse is difficult.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 24, 2012 11:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   2 recs

People don't want to believe that it's difficult to even believe child abuse is occurring.

…especially when the alleged perpetrator is a pillar of the community who works with kids on a regular basis, under the (supposedly) close supervision of qualified professionals who (we wish would) know how to spot child abusers a mile away.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 24, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I still think

For those who have been (or are being) sexually abused, they are particularly angry at someone like Joe for not stopping this. They sooo want there to be that kind of supercoach who can spot child abusers a mile away. Their profound frustration manifests itself in a fury that cripples their logic.

by Jitterbug on Jan 24, 2012 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

There's no good way to spot molesters

As far as I’ve gathered, the only way to stop it, in addition to general awareness and vigilance, is for youth organizations to create and enforce blanket polices that prevent a kid from ever being alone with an adult (other than their parent). That protects the adult from misunderstandings as well as the kid. By making it an all-times/no-exceptions rule, nobody is picked out as untrustworthy. The youth group I work with does that. A guy I know who coached women’s rugby (not girls, grown women) said they had the same rule. It just simplifies and clarifies things.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 24, 2012 11:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions   1 recs

it simplifies and clarifies things

but also makes certain opportunities available to fewer kids. By all accounts a worthwhile tradeoff, but a tradeoff none the less.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 25, 2012 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

No, there isn't any good way...

but you’d think that if anyone had any aptitude, it would be the people who advise the legislature on what it takes to write a ‘tough’ child protection law – and half of those people in Pennsylvania had some level of involvement in Second Mile.

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 25, 2012 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Matt Millen said it best:

“Was he perfect? No. But he’s as good as there ever has been”.

And to anyone who believes that they are a better person than he was… good luck with that.

"Heaven hired THE best coach ever".

Paul Jones

by The Heel on Jan 25, 2012 3:37 AM EST reply actions  

Well, Sue Paterno, maybe.
And to anyone who believes that they are a better person than he was… good luck with that.

I never personally met either Joe or Sue. But I want to honor Joe’s way of life by being better than I am and knowing what Sue is going through today, over the past few weeks, and in the wake of November 2011, I just want to drive to State College and give her a hug.

by Tezcatlipoca on Jan 25, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Black Shoe Diaries. If you haven't already done so, create an account and get involved in the conversation.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Avatar2_small
Sad News: 717's Own, Reading Rambler Passes On
154690_10100374022013820_13900087_66639438_4085030_n_small
Breaking Down Penn State's Inaugural D1 Hockey Schedule
At_the_foot_of_a_legend_small
My Obligatory Off-Season Book Post

Recent FanPosts

Hugh_griffith_small
Food for Thursday....The PA Pineapple Company
Psukoolaid_small
Suggestions for fun in Minneapolis?
1-joe-paterno_small
Please clarify your posting policy.
A_cullen_the_bug_small
JoePa & Esquire - and other stories
Jet_ski_jump__reef_central_avatar__small
Sandusky Jury Selection Begins June 5th
Small
Kameron Miles
Small
ESPN - reporting PSU considering schedule changes
Joepa1_small
Jimmy Johnson's worst loss

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SHOP THE BLACK SHOE DIARIES STORE

Gameday Depot University Apparel


Managing Editors

Zn_avatar_small Mike Pettigano

Img110_small Jeff Junstrom

Asst. Editors

6a00d8341c630a53ef0105369fb7ee970b-800wi_small Jared Slanina

Olmec_small Devon Edwards

Baller_small Eric Gibson

Mauti_small Cari Greene

Staff Writers

Iron_armor_small Galen

New4_good_small Nick Blonde

Turd_ferguson_psu_small Tim Aydin

On_the_way_to_grad_small Kyle_Martin

N53100510_31463067_5584_small Adam Collyer

Bus-fire-bikes_small Dan Vecellio

What-a-country-yakov_small bscaff

Small Keith Platt

Small TimHyland